i'll call my guy.
He's got a guy for that.
Hosted by Rich Rochlin, a lawyer who just loves talking to people. This podcast is all about real conversations—sometimes about law, sometimes about life, and sometimes just about whatever’s on our minds.
No scripts, no fluff—just good conversations.
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i'll call my guy.
The Human Side of Branding: Building Trust and Influence with Tony Cashman
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In this episode, Rich sits down with Tony Cashman for a conversation about branding, business, and the relationships behind it all. Tony shares the story of growing CashmanKatz from a two-person startup into a nationally recognized agency, along with what he’s learned about trust, reputation, and long-term growth throughout the process. The conversation highlights the importance of creating meaningful relationships, leading with authenticity, and building influence through real human connection. Whether you’re growing a business, building your personal brand, or looking to make a lasting impact, this episode is for you!
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All right, so we have another episode and we have Tony Cashman. You go Anthony is your is your legal name.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but then if you say that, I feel like I'm in trouble. You feel like you're in trouble, Anthony?
SPEAKER_00So what kind of name is Anthony Cashman?
SPEAKER_01It's half garlic and half Gaelic. Oh, really? Yeah, interesting. Half Italian, half Ireland. I was gonna say, right, because it's like the the last name doesn't match the first name. It doesn't. Yeah, Cashman is Irish. Uh most people wouldn't know that unless you're up in the Boston area. They think of Wayne Cashman of the Boston Bruins.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I see. So it's so Anthony Katz. Because you could all because I always joke with people on here, like you could also pass for Jewish.
SPEAKER_01Most people think Italians are happy Jews, right? 100%. And the name of our firm, Cashman Katz, we sound like a Jewish law firm. Like a Jewish law firm. And I live in West Hartford. You live in West Hart. Right, so it all makes sense. Many of my best friends are Jewish. So we're right.
SPEAKER_00It's funny you say the happy Jews. But you guys have the better food.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Italians. That's settled. That's settled. Yeah, we probably do, but it's we're very tons of similarities. Similarities.
SPEAKER_00Rich Rosenthal was on here. We had him on a few weeks ago from Max, and he was like uh the same thing. Like he's like the Italians got us beat. So I agree with that. So was the who was the Italian and who was um Irish?
SPEAKER_01My father uh was Irish and my mom's Italian.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And where did you grow up? I grew up in uh West Hard Connecticut. Really? In the Elmwood and the Mean Streets of Elmwood.
SPEAKER_00The mean streets of Elmwood. You're an Elmwood, wow, you're West Hardford 6110. So you're a Conard guy.
SPEAKER_01I'm a walk at Sedgwick Conard. I remember when West Hartford Center was not what it was. It was like Edelwise, and I could go. I mean, it's there's you know, when Brico's was El Forno and Wow, yeah, wow my God, that's that's great.
SPEAKER_00Because I when I moved up here for law school in '97, and the center was nothing. It was just there was a few places, and you know, uh, you could have invested so I mean if you knew then, right, just buy 10 houses right around here and you would have been retired.
SPEAKER_01I mean, West Hartford was always nice, but not like not like it is now.
SPEAKER_00So, all right, so you're let me because I I'd love to focus on this stuff because I I think it always is a tell for something later in your life. Siblings growing up?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I have a sister who's um who moved back and she's lives in West Hartford near me. And I have two half-brothers that lived in Middletown and uh and grew up with them, but now they're out in California.
SPEAKER_00I see. So did your your parents split when you were younger?
SPEAKER_01Uh my father, mother and father were previously married, and then they were then and then they Oh, interesting. And then uh, yes, so my sister and I, they had my sister and I, but my father, my mother didn't have any children, but my father had two, and they're welcome.
SPEAKER_00Ah, I see. So, so but they were an intact family your your whole life?
SPEAKER_01Well, me and my sister were, but my my two half-brothers.
SPEAKER_00No, no, but I mean your parents. Yes, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Well, most they ended up getting a democracy. Oh, they did too. Okay, but I'm saying, but you're for men, but would I say for 20, 20 years?
SPEAKER_0020 years. Okay. So but you're throughout your childhood here. Oh, that's interesting. Okay, and what and what kind of work did they do?
SPEAKER_01My father was started off as a laborer and did real estate, and then he became head of the labor's union in Connecticut. And then he was towards the end of his career, he was uh I missed my dad immensely, but he was a bleeding liberal democrat who ended up working as the commissioner of labor under the John Rowland and part of Jodie Rell administration.
SPEAKER_00He was the token democrat in the admin in their administration. All right. So he was he was uh he was a progressive guy?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very progressive, but but for lay for unions, he wasn't one of the crazy, you know, he was moderate because you know, the building trades, the laborers, the carpenters, no, the building trades are very more rational, seen is more rational.
SPEAKER_00That's a good point. Um they they are. I would see that's true. Because it's funny because I grew up in, I was the first one in my family to go to college, and uh my grandfather was a union guy, um, and my uncle was a union guy. And they tend to have these like sometimes they tend to like have these like sort of GOP-ish views, but then I like asked them about things, and they're all like progressive Democrat views, and uh they're always like mixed up.
SPEAKER_01Well, my father, this is funny now. This is the scale has changed. Right. Yes, my father said if you have more than, and this is his mindset, he passed 12 years ago, but he said, if you have more than $10,000 in the bank, you're a Republican. But now it's maybe I don't know. Maybe it's 50.
SPEAKER_00No, he's be was being facetious. All bets are off now because uh, you know, I know that I'll I'll be careful with politics because I know you serve a lot of clientele, but it's it's it's it's what the way things were in the early 2000s, it's we're not we're in a different universe. Yeah, that's a good way to play it. Uh so yes. So um, but yeah, but it's so funny because I meet my uncle all the time from California. We really don't he just has these he's out of it. But anyhow, but he talks to me about all these things, and he was a union guy, all these things, and I'm like, you know, those are incompatible with your political beliefs. You understand that. Like these are like, you know, union stuff and and in you know, and you know, he was a teamster and screw management, and they're taking advantage of the little guy, and it's all this stuff.
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, No, it's it's you can't you can't put people in the box because here's the thing. I mean, I've learned this, I've represented labor unions, and I've on most of the membership um um broad brush stereotyping, but uh most of them are Republican, but the leadership is Democrat, and you wouldn't you you you know, you wouldn't think it as far as the rank and file, maybe it's 50-50, but it's more Republican than you would think. But obviously, all the union leaders are staunch to be.
SPEAKER_00But but like Republican in what like I always ask this because there's like, as you know, there's like New England Republicans, right? Like there's like you know, the John Roland, there's you know, there's like you know, your friends locally were like, oh, these are different guys that have different views on on economics, but like like, and now there's like a different thing. Like you don't know where you are, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, if you're a Connecticut Republican or a New England Republican, um, you are you're you some would call you liberal, you're modest. You're I mean, yeah, you're fiscally conservative, but you're socially pretty. I don't know if you're liberal, but you're you're they say inclusive. Yeah, it's probably a better, a better word. And whereas if you go to other parts of the country, if you're in like Georgia or Tennessee, the Democrats are more conservative than the Republicans.
SPEAKER_00That's right. So you can't you can't put people in a bus.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's interesting. And what did mom do? My mother uh was she started off as an actress and then she throughout her, she was a stay-at-home mom, but then she even drove a school bus. Wow, yeah, and then she later in her career, you know, she ended up uh being in cosmetics and working, you know, up at Nordstrom's and Okay, yeah. Yeah, so we just a blue-collar family. Yeah, for sure. You know, but it shaped me through who shaped you, yeah. So so then so you finish at Connor. Did you go right to college? Yeah, I went to uh Stonehill College, which is outside of Boston. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, and it's uh you know, small little, I guess you'd call Irish Catholic College. And it's oh they've become D1 over the last three years. And they're I used to tease and say it's the Irish Catholic school for kids that can't get into BC. But it's but it's no, it's it's come a long way. And it's I've met some great friends there, and they're all my high school and college buddies are still friends for life.
SPEAKER_00That's true. I was I'm like that with you. I went to American University in DC. Oh, that's great. Where'd you go to law school? Uh Yukon.
SPEAKER_01Oh, great.
SPEAKER_00So I went to DC. It was great, um, and I loved it. And uh a bunch of my friends were applying for law school. And I'm like, I guess I gotta do something. So I applied and and and ended up here, and I moved to Hartford in '97 and didn't come back. But I grew up in New Haven. Yeah. So I'm a Connecticut guy, but ended up in DC, which I love. America's a great school.
SPEAKER_01Yukon Laws. Yeah. Is a dear one of my best friends. He's a retired West Hafer cop. You know what he does now? He's a cop in the Yukon system. He started off at John Debsy UConn. Now he's at the Yukon School. Oh, law school? Yeah. He patrols. Oh, that's an easy gig.
SPEAKER_00Oh my God, he sleeps probably half the time. Oh my gosh, that's a great gig. What happens there? I I don't know. I mean, uh sharp tongues, you know, like you know, like somebody like does something offensive. Um yes, wow, that's something. Yeah, no, so that's what I did. Um, and so I I loved DC and I had uh good college years. So what happens out outs after college? Do you go right into the do you do sales, marketing? What do you do?
SPEAKER_01It's a good question. You know, I wanted to be uh the next Chris Berman.
SPEAKER_00I wanted to be a sportscaster. So what kind of sports was your thing that you liked?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I, you know, I in college I, you know, I worked for the Brockt Enterprise, which is a newspaper. I worked, I interned at an independent station in Boston, and I and then I even interned in college at ESPN. Okay. And I also inter uh I worked part-time at the Harvard Current. And what I did was um I my whole life really changed. I guess my pivot point was when I was in college, my father said, Why don't you write a letter to at the time he was a general manager of WFSB Channel 3, which was in Harvard, Constitution Blasics. Oh, yeah, right downtown. Before they moved to Rocky Hill, which has been many years now. And his son, I played alumni league baseball in West Hereford, but he went to Kingswood and I went to Conard. So I didn't, other than sports, I really didn't interact with him much. But I said, you know what? My father said, write a letter. That's when writing people wrote letters. And I didn't want to do it, but I did it. And I've had I had known, he got the letter and he uh connected me with the general manager of channel three. And before I met with him, I I didn't find this out till I met with the general manager of at channel three at the time, that this person's son they moved to Miami, he became the general manager of Miami, and then he became the CEO of what was called Post Newsweek. They since sold to Meredith and Meredith, you know, sold to Gray. But his son dove off the cliffs of Key Biscayne and became a quadruple agent. And then we it's terrible. And the reason why I say that is had I known that story, I would have never had the gallery uh to write him a letter, and my whole life would be different because he hooked me up with Chris Roars, who said, Why don't you go into uh he he said, Listen, why do you want to be on here? He goes, People like Bob Cossas and Chris Berman, they're talent, but they're one in a million, and they're a piece of meat. He goes, You're gonna have to move to like two balumis. You know, you're not starting off even in Hartford or New Haven. And you know, and he said, Why don't you go into sales? And so, you know, I listened to him and then I got a job at the smallest radio station. It was in Bristol on Route 6 next to Stephen Automall Center. It was called WBIS, and it was a how many watts? It was it's funny US, it was a thousand watts. It was so small, and I did play by play for in color commentary for Bristol Eastern, Bristol Central, and St. Paul. And then I sold advertising during the day, and I kept in touch with him.
SPEAKER_00And then I did you did you get your uh did you get your license, your uh FCC license?
SPEAKER_01No, I what I did was I just you know, I was just an like an on-air guy getting paid. No, I sold advertising, I called on all local businesses in Plainville, Southington, and Bristol. Right. And then I wrote a I, you know, I reached back out to the team and I said, because he said, I said, you know, I like sales. And so I interviewed at two stations back at channel three, and at the time WRCH. And channel three, which it still is, was the number one station, TV in Connecticut and RCH at the time, which it still may be is the number one radio station. And I never forget the people in radio were laughing at me because I was selling spots for a dollar fifty. You know, and at that time RCH was selling spots for like two, three hundred dollars. So they're like, this guy, they were they got a kick out of me. They didn't know I was interviewing at channel three. They offered me the position and I ended up getting taking a job at channel three, selling advertising when I told them great people. And they they were sort of not making fun of me, but joking how cheap the spots are, you know, like me moving to RCH was big time, but then I went to TV and they didn't expect it. And I had the rest is history. That's where I met Ed Katz. And uh we Ed lived in Westport and we worked there for three years. And I, you know, I I learned the TV business, sold advertising, learned how to deal with clients, learned the concepts of media, learned production, creative. And then Ed and I got this crazy notion in 1992 to start our own agency out of my house in Manchester. I was living in the Clock Tower Mill in Manchester, and I'll never forget we resigned after two and a half years, and he didn't have any children. His wife at the time was making more money than him, so he could take the risk. And for me, I was just young, naive, and ignorant. I tell people that's sort of the skills. There's really, if you're gonna be an entrepreneur, there's really two ways to do it young, naive, and ignorant, because you got to jump off the high diving board, or you got to be unemployed and then there's really yeah, exactly. And so that's what we did, and we left and uh we started our own media and planning and buying agency and then grew to full service creative PR. And I'll never forget the general manager called me in when he found out and he goes, Have you talked to your parents about this? Because I really love my job. I was making great money at that time, and it was in the fourth quarter of '92. And he said, He thought I was nuts. You know, it's 25 years. He goes, Are you? I go, I'm very happy here. He goes, I go, but I I have two clients that are willing to come with me. And so they ended up cutting a deal where we could start our agency but work out of channel three because it was fourth quarter and they needed people to service the clients because that's their busy time of year. It's the retail time of year, and you know, the rest has been history. We were moved from Manchester, uh, I'd say a year later to Cromwell, uh, right on 372, uh, you know, across from the Cromwell Diner. We were there for four.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, I had an office in East Berlin right there. Right there next to the Mills Crossing. That's where I was in the where the fabric place was? Right past the Walmart on the left. Okay, I'm just before that. But you wow, how long were you there for that? I was there for in 2000, a couple of years, 2009 to 2011, maybe. Oh, what a small one. Yeah, right in East Berlin, right across the Cromwell Line. So if you're if you're passing the Walmart on your left, they're those little like beige buildings they get. Yeah. Yeah. So I was there for a while. Yeah. That's where I started out when I went out. I left Big Law and I went there. I set up my own shop in like a Regis office.
SPEAKER_01Well, where were you? Uh, what law firm were you?
SPEAKER_00I I started my career in 1999 at Bingham, Dana, and Gould. Later became Bingham McCutcheon and then fell apart. And now the a lot of the refugees are at Morgan Lewis. Then I was after there, I went to the affiliate-based firm, their Hartford office called Deckert.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Uh, Philadelphia firm. These are like, you know, thousand lawyer firms, big firms. And then I was a partner at Shipman and Goodwin for a little over a year. And then I went and did my own thing. Good for you.
SPEAKER_01How long have you had your own business for?
SPEAKER_00Since 2009.
SPEAKER_01Well, I remember a good friend of mine. I won't say his name, but he's Greek. We'll leave it at that. He was you did a lot of a work for him with his um with his um uh used um.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, Peter. Oh, I love Peter.
SPEAKER_01I love reason that he's he's a great guy.
SPEAKER_00Oh, he he's he's been a great um like mentor to me, and we he we went through some real shit.
SPEAKER_01And I'm sure you could have spoken so highly of you. And Peter is, I haven't seen Peter. I saw him maybe six months ago, and uh, he's one of the few people I've met in my life that he he doesn't brag. He complains about how bad he's doing. And he's not he's got more money than you're right, but he's most people like he he brags the opposite.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's always everything's he's broke, he's yeah, yeah, yeah, he's full of shit. Yeah, no, I did so. I was a corporate, I you know, I did big law finance for many years. And then when I went off my own, I kept doing that stuff. Um and it's and um, and then I got pulled in by a guy who's now a judge, Steve Dembo, um, and on a case um that involved Peter's old partner, um, Photius uh Dalamagus. And um, and he um anyhow, so he uh and then they pulled me into family law somehow, and then I be changed my whole career and became a trial lawyer and did family work, and now I only do exclusively custody and divorce. You must um but I did Peter's all of his corporate stuff. Yeah, but he told me I know I always heard you. But I mean, but it was really um I forgot that he was friends with you. Yeah, he um I've been to India to his Indian factory, yeah. Yeah, but they they they got involved in such a mess. The partners all went up suing each other, it's too much. It was so stressful. I couldn't take it because I was friends with all of them and represented all of them, and it was a mess. And I just said, Peter, just get this thing resolved, man. Like uh, but yeah, he um that he's got a heck of a business. Like he really does.
SPEAKER_01He's he's and he's so humble, grounded, and like he's a good guy, yeah. He's he's great, and uh, and you must be a saint to do what you're doing. Uh that kind of law.
SPEAKER_00You must have a lot of patience and yeah, and it's better for me because going from corporate finance work where you're dealing with like investment bankers and all that kind of stuff to people with real problems in their lives and their kids, and it's better fit for me. And uh, and I love the courtroom. And Peter always encouraged me because I got involved. My first case was with his partner. I represented his partner and his divorce that had gone on for a long time, and I settled it in two weeks. And uh, and so Peter would say to me, Why don't you like do that stuff? You really you know like it. And so I transitioned uh out from representing him and and other corporate people and restaurants. I did a lot of restaurant work, and then I I just one day my mentor said, You got to just do one thing and do it well. And so I did that, and the rest is history. So that's all we do. So yeah, so I do have a lot of patience. Um, I can ride a bull a long time. It's uh yeah, it's it's tough. Um, so all right, so so with '92, you you start your own, what would you call it then? An ad agency?
SPEAKER_01Well, we started off initially as a media buying firm. So we bought TV, cable, radio, print, outdoor. There wasn't digital then. And uh, and then we grew into PR.
SPEAKER_00So, but is that is that really like a middleman business? Is that what that is? Uh like you buy it and then sell it to other people?
SPEAKER_01No, I would rep clients would call me and we plan it. We'd they give us budget and we and then we'd buy. We but we are the middle middleman, but like we would put the it's like an architect, we'd put the plans together. I see. We'd plan it, buy it, traffic it, reconcile it, do a post-buy analysis. We still do that, but we quickly grew and pivoted into creative, full service, public relations, video production.
SPEAKER_00Is is Claude and AI gonna impact you guys? I think it is.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but in I uh we're not afraid of it. I think if it's used prudently and judiciously, I mean, we use it. I mean, I'll tell you I'll use it for whether it be thought starters, and you're right, it's crap in, crap out. You got to put the right get the right prompts, yeah. Yeah, and you can't use it to like do the work for you, but you can use it like if I do RFPs or if I want to edit things or like we do a lot of state work, and you know, there's and it comes in that we have to submit an RFP in an Excel spreadsheet, and you want to compartmentalize it. Oh, it's perfect. But we we use it that way. I mean, I I I think it'll have a it's always gonna have a place, but I think clients they may not articulate this. But the biggest reason why someone hires a firm like us is they want someone to come up with a big idea. Right. And a big idea doesn't mean it could be an ad campaign, it could be a brochure, it could be a video, it could be a PR campaign, it could be an event, but it's a a big theme, a big concept, a big strategy, a big idea, something that has legs that will be sustainable in all facets of communication. And and so I don't think that's ever gonna go away. I mean, because even if you used you know AI, it'll prompt you with thought starters, but all it is is giving you a baseline. It's not it, it it won't it may write technical copy for you and things that are basic, but if you want something that's at least in our world, very robust and thematic, it's gonna give you a baseline, but I don't know that it'll it would it will give you that one humongous nugget. It'll prompt you in the right direction. Uh but if you want it to, but I think nowadays you can see when people are you could, yeah. You can tell if it's very if it's too polished or too like uh segmented, or you know, then then you know. But I I'm I'm not afraid of it. I welcome it. And I think it's it'll have a place. It just has to be used prudently and judicially.
SPEAKER_00Same in the law too. I although it's it's changing things like when we get discovery, and if somebody dumps their bank records on these documents, it can chew up that and spit it out and analyze for you in 10 minutes like a person can't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and it's getting in and as I tell people, because I'm sort of down the AI rabbit hole, this is as bad as it's ever gonna be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it gets better. It's like a human, it gets learns and learns and gets better. And it's not subject to emotion, it's not subject to having to pay bills and wives and husbands and all the problems that we have. It just gets better and better. So I think three years from now, it's gonna be a different landscape and a lot of things. Like some of the creative stuff is insane that it's doing. It is, and it's gonna put a lot of creating, like it wrote a website for me in 10 minutes that somebody would normally charge $2,500 for and take three weeks to put out.
SPEAKER_01You're right.
SPEAKER_00Like that. Those people are gone. You know what I think it's gonna be earth-shattering for?
SPEAKER_01It's essentially predictive modeling. Yeah, if you do you can do predictive modeling, it could do behavioral and behavior analysis. And so, like, like municipalities, governments can like put can do predictive modeling and know the how much salt they're gonna need in the winter based on the weather patterns, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00It loves it loves analyzing that data.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's it's very quantitative, and you brought up a great point. It's only going to get better because all it is is it's an ecosystem of content that has been put in, and they're going out and grabbing it from the whole, for lack of better words, Ethernet. That's really I'm I'm generalizing it called maybe oversimplifying it, but that's really what it is. It's only gonna get better.
SPEAKER_00Now, when you started in 92, things have obviously changed, right? The the the the democracy. Graphics have changed how younger people are looking at things. Like, for instance, I tell people if you're not on the socials as a lawyer now, you're going to be out of business.
SPEAKER_01100%.
SPEAKER_00Because people now look at look, you know, lawyers have TikToks, right? They have Instagram. And it's not, there is still a part of my practice, and I'm 50 and I've been doing this 25 years, that's still old school. I get a lot of referrals the old-fashioned way, right? But that's that's gonna die off.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's still gonna be there, but it's Rich, you're I mean, uh Libby is with us, she's does PR and social media on our team. Our biggest growth area in our practice is doing social media for our clients. And like social media is an offshoot of public relations, but it's turned changed to become more artistic, more creative because of photography. And and so social media is where it's your own content, it's your own channel, it ties into your website. It's and and it's also it's a way for you to tell your story, it's leadership positioning, it's thought leadership. And if if you use it properly, there's no better business development tool. Right. And you can do it daily, hourly, it has metrics, you can track from it, measure it, and you're right. It's professional service firms, architects, engineers, lawyers, advertising agencies. It there's no, and you can, I mean, you can't do this, but we can do it. We can talk about our clients, right? You know, and we can show examples of our work, or and it's just a great way. Because people, I'm sure you find this, people do they do want referrals and they do, and they do, but they want it from people that not only they trust, they want to have heard of that firm and the and and they want to see. And so when you're promoting your social channel, even if someone's not in the buy mode, they learn about who you are as a as an organization.
SPEAKER_00What do you call that in in terms of in your business? Do you call that like your reputation, your branding?
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's well, it's it's everything. It's reputation management, it could be branding, it could be thought leadership, it could be it's it's really um it's articulating your message.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. And and and you know, I know that that's succeeding because you know, Sammy does this full time for us too. When we always track how did you find us? How did you find us? And when somebody says, Oh, I Dave uh Jones or whatever, whatever the name is, and I don't know that person. I'm like, oh, how did Dave Jones? He's like, Oh, he heard of you. He says you're great. Like, and then I know our message is working because he's heard of us, and that's a sign that you have a reputational um, you know, you have reputation, right? You have a character. People think that you're the recommending you that have never met you and you didn't do a case for them. That's exactly listen, your social media and your website, you own them.
SPEAKER_01That's your that's you, it's your product, it's your billboard, it's your and it's and and and you have to, you know, you have to, it's a living, breathing organism. Right, it'll work. You have to mine it. You have to, and so I don't know how I'll uh plug Sam here, but you've got to that's one of your most important, yeah. Keep that going. No, we do it's every day.
SPEAKER_00We're she's filming content with me every week. We're putting stuff out there because you're you're you're competing not just for with restaurants, all these people are looking for content. And when they're looking through and they see you and they engage with you and they like you, when they need you, they'll reach out.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Or they're having a friend who's talking about family law, Chicago Trock. Yeah, I mean, like it's and it comes in. I found you know, it comes in strange ways. And you know, I was looking at the the I guess the ethos of your podcast, and I know a guy, I mean, or I got a guy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'll call my guy.
SPEAKER_01I'll call my guy. Pretty much that's the ethos of our company. Where I or me personally, I'm in the relationship business. I am not in marketing, advertising, or PR or digital or social media. I'm in the relationship business. And my my my net worth is my relationships and my contacts because I I that's how I'm able I'm able to perform on behalf of my clients.
SPEAKER_00And that's how I'm able to get business and it ties into my reputation. That's 100% right. That's a hundred percent right.
SPEAKER_01And and it's there's nothing more important, and I mean, it's like I tell people, I've had, you know, I've gone and spoke at uh I speak every year at Quinnipiac, and I tell a lot of the college kids, I said, I think there's three components of being successful uh in life. Uh, and it could be as an entrepreneur or it could be as in corporate America, as a leader, is A, you have to, you have to have relationships and they have to be meaningful and not to go off in a diatribe. But I really feel terrible for a lot of kids coming out of college nowadays with working in this you know remote society. You can't build relationships that way, and that's key. The second thing is is you and the second thing is is you have to be resilient. You can never quit because you're you're gonna get knocked down. We all get knocked down. You learn from your mistakes. But guess what? You you don't you don't get defeated if you keep getting up. You know, you gotta play the long game. I mean, I get rejected every day of my life because even with existing clients, they may not like the campaigns we come up with, budgets may get cut, they they may not, certain things aren't performing as well. So you gotta be able to you gotta be able to take rejection, you know. And then the third thing is is you can't be the smartest guy in the room. You gotta, you gotta to be a good leader, you need to hire people that are smarter than you. I'll tell you if I walk in a room and I'm you know I'm in the smartest guy, I feel like the joke, the joke's on me. Well, I don't, I mean, I don't want a bunch of sick, I want people that are the best and brightest. So those are those are you can't, I mean, you can't do it all, you can't do it all yourself. And you know, I I joke around with my staff. I said, you know what, we're in the service business, just like you are. Our product goes out the door every night, depending upon how late they work at 6 or 6:30, 7 o'clock, 5:30, whatever it may be. We're not making bagels. So guess what? Our product is the people. You better take care of them. We are the product. So how you interact with with each other, your clients, I mean, you, and that's why we try to just take care of our staff. We are the product.
SPEAKER_00That is right. We're producing, that is such a good point. Yeah, that's the this so the ethos of it is uh I got a guy who was trademarked already, so we grabbed, I'll call my guy, but that's exactly what it is. It's and I and I tell the the the we're largely a female uh law firm, except for me, um, and Mark is part-time uh Mark Faro. But um, but I I tell the ladies in the office um all the time, uh, some of whom were you know just out of college, and I say to them, I say, the most important thing of your relationships, the most. It's everything. It's everything, it's everything. And I and I Sammy's heard me say it a thousand times. So that's the point of it, is that the relationship is what you can, whether it be the um the the janitor or the or the custodian or the CEO, whatever it is, everybody can contribute something to your um to enriching your life, and you can enrich their life. And if you uh and if you build that relationship, those are the people that are gonna be able to assist you and guiding you through your career. It's our currency, it's your currency.
SPEAKER_01And you know, I tell I've told I've said this to many college students, I'm like, you gotta play the long game, you gotta have relationships, and there are times you want to tell someone to go F off. And you know, we've all done it, but the few times in my life I've done it, I've regretted it. You gotta play the long game because you don't know if that person, you know, like they may you may never interact with them, but they could have a cousin, a sister that's on a board, and you go in and they, oh, I remember your name, and you just blew yourself up. I mean, I'm ex- but no, that's right. You just can't, you're you you've gotta maintain good and you don't know how you're gonna get a lead, or it's not even getting new business. Let's say a client needs you to do something for them, and you need you need conduits, you need contacts, and so your currency is your it's your relationships. Relationships you can't you not only can't get business, you really can't perform properly on behalf of those paying you.
SPEAKER_00What um I think Steve Abrams from Max said, he said the customer isn't always right, but they're allowed to be wrong. And I thought that's sort of in that same vein. Like, yes, all right, let it be. Because you're right, if you want to tell somebody that and blow that up, that could that can chop off a lot of tentacles.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And so it's sometimes it's better to step back and just sort of let it be, because you know, burning it, you don't want to burn a bridge.
SPEAKER_01Uh I I mean, I tease people, I'm I'm, you know, that show Mad Men where one of the uh partners, he was like a stump puppy. I mean, that's exaggerated. But what I do for a living, other than in the 50s and 60s, when they were drinking alcohol all day long and they took naps on couches and they were fraternizing, we don't do that, obviously, but conceptually it's the same thing. Like, you know, you gotta eat a lot of shit. Yeah. I mean, when I say eat a lot of shit, it's people, it could not just be clients, it could be people that are gonna help you out or people that are bringing you in and they're wasting your time, or they don't know what they don't know. I mean, I could go on and on with with the war stories, but you have to, you know, you just you learn, you know, you gotta. I'll never forget early on. I was a lawyer told me these two words about being an being a business owner. He said, Tony, you need to be ruthless and cynical. And I'll never forget that. And there's a lot of there's it's it's stuck with me the my whole life because ruthless doesn't mean cutthroat or mean. It means I took it as it's pragmatic. You just have to really you you can't whatever you think you're seeing, it odds are it's it's not gonna go that way. It's and I've learned in life things, even the things you want, they may happen, but they're never gonna happen at your time frame, and you have to be patient. And cynical means what meets the eye may not be there. There could there could be there's always there's always they say, like, on if you do business deals, there's hair on that deal, you know. Like, so there's so much, and it's it's and I'm a pretty optimistic person. I'm a very glasses half full, I'm not a glasses half empty. So I know that statement saying ruthless and cynical, but I think it serves you well. And now lawyers are trained to think that.
SPEAKER_00Well, the problem is we're that's why a lot of lawyers are bad business people because we're trained to find problems. Exactly. That's what they teach us, right? Instead of trying to find opportunities and to take risks, it's always like, well, what could go wrong? What could go wrong? And if you're always thinking about what could go wrong, you're not gonna be successful because you won't take the right risks and get comfortable with being uncomfortable. A lot of lawyers are just, oh, I don't know, I don't know. Whereas, as you know, some of the I meet these guys sometimes that I look, you know, I know what everyone makes, I see all their financial. So I see these guys, I'm like, oh fuck out of these, this guy's an idiot. And he made all this money. And you know what the difference is, is that he's got brass balls. Yeah, he makes he's decisive and he acts quickly. He makes decisions quickly, or she makes decisions quickly. And and and they're and they do that and they're not as risk-averse as most people. They'll be like, you know what? Yes, yes, because the speed is what gets them to where they need to be. 100% people take too much time, and that's I find that they have in common. They act so fast.
SPEAKER_01There's a direct correlation in life between risk and reward. And some people are brilliant people, but they don't have the testicular fortitude to jump off the diving board because that's really what it is. You you may be afraid of heights, you may think the water's gonna be cold, but you gotta do it. And there, and there are people in corporate America that are very successful, but they're entrepreneurs, they're not entrepreneurs because they didn't have the balls to to jump. And then there are, and then conversely, there are people who have the balls, but they're dumb. They're dumb and they don't and they don't make it, or they quit too. They quit. But you said something you're right, you gotta not only have balls, you gotta see opportunity, be decisive, and act quickly. And I learned you're going to fail. In fact, you're gonna fail way more times in life than you're gonna succeed, but it it's it's almost like golf. It's that one shot that keeps you coming back.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Wow. So, so now, like, so you're a full shop, a full service agency, right? So I you can come to you for crisis communication. Um, I want to uh market my uh my product, I want to uh do an ad campaign, um, those types of things, right? So you in and in and do you have um uh do you what's the smallest client you'll handle uh in your firm?
SPEAKER_01You know, it depends. We'll have nonprofit clients that could yeah, I mean it runs the gamut. I mean, it depends on how long the engagement is, and but we take things as little as a small project of 10 or 20,000 and all the way up to millions of dollars, and it, you know, we have to be careful about it, but we try to, you know, we're 25 people, so in Connecticut, that's sizable, but in the on the national level, we're considered smaller and mid-size. But I like what I'm proud of it is in the service industry, really, there's two ways to make money charge the right amount of money, which we we often can't do because it's so competitive. Uh I mean we try, but or you put or you put junior people on an account, which I we refuse to do. Meaning junior people can work on an account, but they you you you gotta have a team, and you don't want to have so because then you know, because you're paying them less money. So we try to have an integrated approach where there could be junior people, but there's senior people, and so you know, we have a whole team on it. And so we you get we're we're putting the A team on on every piece of business because you want the output to be really, really good. And then also the junior people that move up to middleweights, and they're getting a ton of experience because there's not a lot of layers and they're getting thrown, you know, they're not doing media work, you know. And the other thing I'll say is we have a robust internship program, which is so key. I tell people I'm being somewhat facetious, but not really, at least in marketing. It's almost more important where you're where your internships are than maybe not as a doctor or a lawyer or or maybe even an accountant, but but in my you could go to Yale, but if you don't have the right internships, it doesn't matter. You need to have the right experience. That's the first thing we look at. And so we have interns every semester and they get course credit. We have them in the summer and we immerse them in our business.
SPEAKER_00So what so speaking of uh inverse interns, didn't I see I follow your daughter online and isn't she like going, she's like following in your footsteps, isn't she?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd love my you know, I would love my daughter to right.
SPEAKER_00She's but she did something recently. I'm like, oh my god, she's gonna do what her dad does.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if you were to ask her now, she wants nothing to do with my business, even though she's in marketing, PR, communication.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I mean, she could literally step in the same last name. I mean, it's turnkey. Yeah, and what is she doing?
SPEAKER_01And I'm not just saying it because what is she doing? Well, I'm not just saying because it's my daughter, but she's in our business, you have to have the skill set to do, you know, you have to be a salesperson, good at service, good at media, good at strategy. You have to be creative, you have to be a good writer. She's got it all. Most people don't have the skill set to have all that, you know. Like I'm some of it, but I'm not a creative person per se. I'm a you know, I'm a salesman, I'm account service, I'm finance, I'm strategic.
SPEAKER_00But you have to have that creative module when you're she's got it both.
SPEAKER_01Last summer, well, this well, I'm very proud of her, I'll brag. This summer, really, she went to Vanderbilt because, well, it's not only a good school, she loves country music and she wants to go work for a record label. Okay, and she wants to uh do whether it's communications, marketing, and she wants the publishing side. So she'll do artists, but she'd rather do writers, directors, producers. So she got her dream internship this summer at Sony Music Publishing in Nashville.
SPEAKER_00Oh gosh.
SPEAKER_01And listen, Nashville is the music city. She happens to like country music. I can't believe my daughter.
SPEAKER_00It's my daughter because she's I always say what country.
SPEAKER_01I know because I don't hate country music, but I didn't grow up listening to it. And she goes to church, like, you know, like it's not that I'm not religious, but she goes to church every week. She's into she's into country music, and so she wants to go work in that business. And um, I know in a perfect world, I want her to be happy, let her go do that. Maybe after four or five years of uh she'll want to come back to Connecticut, or uh, or maybe we'll be able to open up office in New York or a natural office. Yeah, and she could, but she's smart. I'm proud of her. Uh she uh she's very focused. She asked for my advice, but in the back of her mind, she's already got a plan.
SPEAKER_00She's already got it planned. Wow, that's funny because I see that sometimes. Like I just she has like uh, you know, she's got something turnkey or now maybe she'll she'll end up back there, but I hope so.
SPEAKER_01Like she's doing an internship this summer in Nashville for Sony Music. And last summer, I mean, she's really ambitious. She's a sophomore. Most kids don't get this kind of in freshman year. She ended up doing working for a rabbi for a Jewish school in Nashville, and the guy thought she was Jewish because cash man, and he knew West Arford. And so she could pass very Jewish. And so she did she ended up doing social media for him. And she's and she learned on her own. Like she knew social media, but she learned the analytics, she did the organic. But that's I mean, she could pass for like a Jewish Jeep or whatever. So she so she did a social media and then she's worked at Breako's as a hostess. Yeah. You know, so and so, and she's like, I hope I get a and then she went from, you know, so now she's at Sony, like one extreme to the other.
SPEAKER_00So I hope she I hope she listens to this and takes my advice and and listen, you got this turnkey operation here that the old man will leave to get.
SPEAKER_01Her mother says the same thing, and I'm not just saying it. She's yes, she's my daughter, but she's got more tools than I have.
SPEAKER_00I mean no, but then she could take it to the next level 100%. Tell her what's she doing? I know. But you know, it's like what what an opportunity. Like you built this whole thing, and then what are you gonna do? Like you have one kid, like take it.
SPEAKER_01I know. I but uh maybe she'll come around. I'm not gonna push her. I you know, it's it's I've learned uh you can't do that. You can't, in fact, it'll backfire, it'll backfire on you.
SPEAKER_00That's right. So the so now it's there's 25 of you. Wow, and and it was just the two of you in like uh the back of your car, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we started my my apartment and we went to Cromwell uh on 372, and then we bought our building in 1997, which is in Glastonbury. It's an octagonal building, it's inherently unique. And we what we did to maximize the space during the build-up phase is we built a focus group research facility because we were doing qualitative and quantitative work on behalf of our clients. And we it was really that unscientific. Do you still do focus groups though? We do, but it was at the time it was that unscientific. We didn't really have a plan where, like, well, if we can't fill it, we'll it'll be a second conference room. And then we grew it and it was a separate business. And now, ever since COVID, we had a competitor, and the competitor was in Weatherfield, and and just before COVID, everything the world changed. So they shut their facility down. We shut, we had recruiters that work from home, and we we had to close that down. And now they don't have a facility, they they recruit for us and they use our facility. Like they did groups yesterday. So is there a place in Cromwell that does focus groups? Or there was a company in Cromwell, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Because my what my wife is obsessed with focus groups, like getting selected, and she loves it. She loves giving her opinion. She loves giving her opinion. So she gets all the time. She's like, Oh, I'm doing an opinion on like you know, mothers with kids under so-and-so, and they pay me $200 to sit there and you know buy all the information about her. And uh, and I think she went to Cromwell for it or weather, I forgot, but she was there for like a half a day.
SPEAKER_01It might have been, yeah, they it's amazing the the studies that they do. No, that's weird. We've done product testing concepts as do it for jury. We've done Mock Jury's Mont Trials. We did um, I mean, we've done political campaign ads. I mean, it's in in uh, and then we also have a video production company that we have our own green screen studio that is turned into a white screen because of social media, and um we have two HD editing suites where we do post-production. Did you do political stuff too? We used to years ago.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01Years ago. Polling and all that stuff. Yeah, well, yeah, when we're polling, and we used to do political campaigns years ago. We don't do that anymore. Uh, but it was a great way to connect with opinion leaders in Connecticut. And uh, and uh, but yeah, we have our own editing suites and we, you know, our own stable of cameras, so we can produce content, we can produce online content, broadcast quality content, we shoot our own stuff. So pretty much not much leaves our building. The only thing would leave would be printing. So we can be and and nowadays it's the number one form of content online is video. And to be able to shoot your own video efficiently and economically and quickly, that's the key.
SPEAKER_00Video quickly. Yeah. Right. And and and as you know, even the iPhone cameras are so good uh that it's it makes it, you know, and you can make a nice video just walking around. It's not like those old ones that you know we knew with uh the camcorder, you know.
SPEAKER_01Remember from uh it's funny you say that when we celebrated our 30th anniversary, I had our two production guys shoot a video for me and I love them and they're great. They could not do a social one because it's a different animal. They're different. Yeah, with an iPhone and they did a bet a better job. A better job because they knew they knew how to do it.
SPEAKER_00It's a different people want to see it, they're used to seeing it differently. The quality is amazing. The quality is amazing, right? You can I remember like the first uh you know, the the first one we had was the VHS one that you put over here. It was like $1,200. Remember in uh what was the what was the Hi 8, but what was the one, the movie uh with Chemi Chase where they the video gets stolen? They're uh European vacation. Oh, yeah. Remember that he stolen the wife and and the and uh in like a an intimate video and then they steal it? Remember the French guy at the has him climb into the fountain? I love that spot. That was a good one. But that those were the those were the the days where the the uh right where that it where it wasn't accessible to anybody. You'd have to have the equipment and have a crew come out. Now, like like for instance, the barriers to entry for a podcast are so low. The barriers to entry to making your content are you'd have your phone and you can make an incredible, incredible social media presence.
SPEAKER_01You do, but the key is with social media, it's just like anything else, to do it right, you've got to put the time in, you gotta do the work, and you gotta really nurture it. You can't like we've been talking about doing a podcast. I give you a lot of credit. You've been doing this for three years. You gotta put we haven't started it yet because we're too busy doing work on behalf of our clients. You know, the old ad is the plumbers' house is the last year fixed, and we're gonna kick it off probably the end of May. And uh, but it's like there's just so much to think about. And like I'm a believer, we're not doing it to make money, it's our reputation. Right. And we want the right people, the right content, the right format, and otherwise we're not doing it. You know, we're it you're listening your reputation is everything.
SPEAKER_00That's right. You want to get it right, but right, but but still, right? But the the the point is is that my point is is that just the equipment that you need is a few thousand bucks if you want to just get this stuff, and you can do a high quality event. Oh, you could. Anyone can do it, anyone can do it.
SPEAKER_01It's amazing how that's you gotta be a good interviewer like yourself. You're I'm not saying this to barter you up, and I'm I'm listening to you and I see how you went into it, and that's how you get the most information out of people.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's true. And and one of the things that I do, um, which is sort of an interesting take on all this, is one is it helps me with my direct examination, right? Because legal work is storytelling. Okay. The courts, we don't use juries in in family law, it's only a judge. So I have to convince one person. And that person has wide discretion on what they do and how they allocate things. And so my view as a storyteller is I'm putting somebody on, my client, and I'm not cross-examining them, I'm direct examining them, which is this. This is a direct examination. And so to me, that's like I people always say to me in my office, they're like, How are you preparing for it? I said, Oh, no, no, I just read everything, but I'm just a natural at it. I can go in and how am I gonna, what's the opening act of this case, right? What's the theme? And I think about what the theme is, and then I do that. So there's some of this is like it helps me hone those skills because I just try to have a podcast in front of the judge with my client for three hours, and then the the judge sits there and says, Oh, this is an interesting guy. I've humanized me. He's not the bad, he's not the scoundrel that the wife or the is gonna say that she's gonna be. Because that comes up.
SPEAKER_01No, you're so that's what we try to do. Um that that explains why you're good at it. Because I mean, it's listen, that's what we do for a living. It's story. We're in the storytelling business, and you're in the story, like it just happens to be in most, there's not a lot of people that can tell a crisp, clear, concise story in a short period of time. That's right.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, that's the thing.
SPEAKER_01If it's relevant, meaningful, and break through the clutter.
SPEAKER_00That's right. And that's why, like, if I I I probably make I'd probably be retired by now if I did personal injury trial work because you can get a jury to tell the you tell the story to the jury now. You know, now they're writing millions of dollars in checks. Yeah, and so that those guys are um, if you ever listen to some of those like top trial plaintiffs, lawyers that have made you know, these guys that have private jets kind of money, yeah, those guys are insane storytellers. They can come in and just captivate people. They're they're like Hollywood producers, you know. They they they they know how are we gonna tell the story. So I always try to think of that as a theme, but also here, like what's interesting about a person, how did they grow up, what's their story, um, and what what you know, and also I learn a lot about different things. I'm a curious person. I think that's a one of the traits I try to impart to my children, is be curious about everything, right? Because then, like, you know, it's funny. Sammy laughs at me sometimes. I'll meet with people and they'll say something, and I'm like, I start talking to them about like architectural shingles. Like, like, how do you know about architectural shingles? I'm like, well, I've sat next to a guy on a plane and he was the lead salesman for so-and-so, and I spent two hours talking to him and learned everything I need to know about shingles. So, well, how's that helpful? It's like, well, no, it's interesting, but it gives me a piece of something, and I meet somebody, a guy came in and he's a roofer, and I started talking to them about the guy's like, the fuck do you know all about this about roofing? And I said, Oh, I learned about it, I know about roofing. And then the guy connected me, hired me, and then he refers me all the business. Well, it's smart. That's what we do.
SPEAKER_01We're somewhat, we meet people from all walks of life, and you learn a little bit. But you know, you bring this up when we interview people, I can always tell how smart someone is, not by the way they answer questions, by the way they ask questions.
SPEAKER_00Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_01Because you can't be you can't be thoughtful and smart if you don't ask, you can't if you don't ask, if you ask a good question, you have to be thoughtful and smart. Right. Otherwise, you can't ask a good question. Right. So when I'm interviewing people, if if it it doesn't always, I mean, this isn't the only barometer, but when someone asks a really good, respectful, thoughtful, insightful question, it means they're smart, they did their homework. And you know, like and uh and another thing I'll say is, and I know you didn't ask this, but we've been we interviewing people, you know what I found with this generation? I'm gonna sound like an old man, but that's the truth. I would if I had a penny for no one writes thank you emails.
SPEAKER_00No, that's your hundred. I hope you told taught Ava to write thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, we she writes handwritten notes. I fall off my chair. No, it's good. Okay, it's like I say to my staff, I'm like, oh, please write an F and send me lie to me. Yes, say Tony, it was nice to meet you. If you have any questions, here's my email. I'm being facetious. Lie to me. That took what, seven seconds? I don't even get that. And I, you know, I sometimes don't even blame the the the the I blame their parents.
SPEAKER_00They would they didn't give them because everyone just shoots a text, shoots a text. The handwritten note, that's I have a a friend, a friend of mine who's about 20 years younger and he was an up-and-coming realtor. Now he is a um he's pretty he's worked his way up to the he's with the Metro group. Do you know those guys? Yeah in Farmington, all that South Road development. Great guys. Yeah, my friend is like super, like I forgot what he is now, but he's he's a partner there, I think now. Anyhow, when I first met with him, I sent him a thank you note, like a handwritten note. And he literally, I met him, I saw him the next day. He's like, I I don't even he he like he was cherishing it like it was the Ark of the Covenant. Yes. And he's like, I've never received a handwritten no, I don't know what this is. And I said, I'm gonna tell you the best piece of advice I can give you. Anytime you make a connection with somebody, you send that to him. That's the first thing they're gonna open. And it's so rare that when you get it, you're gonna feel the the paper, you're gonna see that the person wrote something out and it's gonna stick with you the rest of your life. And you know what he tells me? He still has it up in his office. 100%. It's a huge deal, especially because even that would move a younger person because they've never received it before.
SPEAKER_01It's uh yes, it's like when I was when I was a kid, my parents, you know, you go to a you go to write notes for your birthday, you send relatives a handwritten thank you card. That's what you do. So why can't you do that?
SPEAKER_00If you make our kids write thank you notes and everything else.
SPEAKER_01Go for a job interview? Yes, like just I'm not even asking for that. How about an email? And I can't tell you, if just in the last three years, there's let's say I've been using a number of 10 people, eight of them don't even send an email. And I give them my card when I go into the thing. Wow. I mean, how do you it's just I'm I'm flabbergasted.
SPEAKER_00I don't know, I don't know, I don't get it, but it's uh I don't want to sound negative to no, but that's society, but it's well it's you know what it is, everything is so quick, everything is instant gratification, and and it's again, you know we sound old, but there that is something I think that should continue because it's a human connection. Um it it's you know, it and and it's just a nice thing to get. It's just I it's just somebody took the time to write a nice note on some stationary. I think it it it really I think it'll sp if if if we can if young people are listening to this, if I can tell you one, the best piece of advice is that the other thing I always tell people is a is a thing that I I tell them, I said, if you discuss something in your interview that was of interest or whatever, go and over the next two days, set a Google search like for something that comes up on that subject. And then two days later, when you send in their thing, either text it to them or whatever your communication with them, print it out, mail it to them, and say, Hey, remember we discussed this during the interview? I just saw this came up in the news. I thought it would be helpful. To me, that's that's that's it.
SPEAKER_01You're even if you don't have a job opening, you're gonna you're you're gonna help me find that guy.
SPEAKER_00When someone opens, when one opens up, you're gonna hire them, or you're gonna have a friend who's looking to hire and you're gonna say this is a go-getter. Yeah. So I the way I hire is different. I always I look for people that are smart, right? Because smart is smart and have a good attitude. Because I can train them on all that. But if they have a good attitude, I don't care if they don't have all of the experience and whatnot. They're like, you know, that's how I found Sammy, right? She came through, she's super smart, she had a great attitude. I'm like, she's hadn't done this type of work. I'm like, let's do this. And she's been amazing.
SPEAKER_01That's the key. You can't teach someone to care. Right. You can't teach, I mean, like, to me, I'm gonna be facetious again as much as I want smart people. If you're smart and a rock star, but you're a jerk and you're gonna be a toxic, I'd rather you be less talented. Right. But a good human being. And you show up every day on time, yeah. You're you're you're care, you're you're responsible, and you could be trained.
SPEAKER_00You could be trained, right?
SPEAKER_01But you can't if you're and they're representing you too.
SPEAKER_00That's right. They're they're your they're your uh your ambassadors. Uh 100%. Right. So what what where where do you see the this your industry going in the next five years with it? I know we touched on a little bit with AI, um, and also the the changing demographics and what people are consuming and the sort of, you know, most of the time they're looking at their phone now, they're not watching the news necessarily on TV. That's diminishing. The newspapers are going out of business, private equity's eating up the newspapers. Yeah, all that shit is, you know, they used to make all the money on the obituaries, that's gone. You know, like what where how is that? Are you how do you keep up with all of that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you have to. I mean, you've got to be diversified. I think, you know, the word content, everyone talks about content, that's just a modern day word for creative. Right. Like, you know, I'm an old school, you know, advertising guy per se. We call it we need good creative. Now it's content. But people are their own publishers. So brands, they have, you know, they have their own ambassadors, their own spokespeople. So I mean, I don't know, like AI, I think I think AI is gonna be able to, it's gonna it's already is, but it's gonna revol I think it's gonna revolutionize in our industry behavior and predictive modeling as as it comes to personas. Uh like right now, personas are like psychographics, you know. You could be a woman 35 years old uh who likes music, but uh that woman who lives in LA uh might be a different psychographic than the woman who lives in New York. And the woman who lives in New York, let's say she lives in Harlem, and the other one in LA lives, I don't know, it's it doesn't matter, like it they all have different personas. It depends. They're motivated by different things. They could be the same age, same, I mean same sex, doesn't matter, whatever you're motivated, your likes and your triggers to certain language and words. And so that's where AI can come in. It could, it could write, it's not gonna write copy, but it's gonna, we call it ad likes. It's gonna give you lingo and words and buzzwords to connect with that. So, like, you know, if you're um if you're a clothier and you're you're marketing to the urban, you know, urban environment. Well, guess what? Someone in Brooklyn who's in the urban who wants to buy urban clothing may be different than someone in LA who wants to buy urban. It's a different demographic or psychographic, you know. So I think that's where AI can plug and play because the messaging is different. Um, and I think I don't know, I think AI, I'm not afraid of it. I welcome it. I think it's gonna, I don't, I think because it comes back to relationships, AI is not gonna build a relationship. Clients, people want human people crave for human interaction, touch, relationships, you know, learning, and AI is gonna AI will systematically make your life easier from doing rude not just rudimentary, but systematic type of functions. But it's not gonna supplant you know the human relationship. So, and you know, I will say the future, I think the biggest future of AI, and I'm not a futurist by any means, is those people that know how to really work with it and use it. I think it maybe make it a being a consultant with it.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's where I think it's gonna make more millionaires in the next five years than we've ever seen. It's gonna, it's, it's, it's a technological revolution. It's going to make the people that know how to use it lethal incredibly successful. We always say it's good, I always say it's gonna make good lawyers or great lawyers exceptional lawyers because it's going to be able to find stuff for them that they haven't even thought of. We have depositions, for instance, where the deposition is being listened to by AI. And while the person's testifying, it's looking at every document in the entire case, the discovery, and it's flagging for you. That's inconsistent with this. That's inconsistent with this. Now, if you're the lawyer on the case, I can only do that so much. I'm a human being, right? I've got bills to pay, I've got uh, you know, you got kids, you got a wife bitching out you, all these things. You can only do that so well. This is a machine that has none of those emotions, and it's just looking at that. So it's making good lawyers like exceptional lawyers, but then it's making the other side of it, it's making non-lawyers think that they're lawyers, right? So they're not, they don't have any of the judgment, right? And it's making bad lawyers worse lawyers because they're relying on it too much.
SPEAKER_01But isn't there like you have to be careful because they could it could spit out wrong data? Well, that's for king.
SPEAKER_00Hallucination, it hallucinated on cases. Big be we're talking about crisis management, Sullivan and Cromwell in New York, right? 2,000 lawyers. This week they charge 3,000 an hour per partner. They're the probably the premier litigation shop. Bet the company litigation, you know, Fortune 500 company, right? They charge 3,000 an hour per partner there. One of their people sent uh a pleading in with hallucinated cases, and they had to send a letter to the judge, and it's all over. Now, people are writing Sullivan and Cromwell and ChatGPT is the name of their firm. It's a huge crisis. It's a huge crisis because they did that. Um and, you know, so nobody's susceptible, everybody's susceptible to it, and they they didn't check it. And uh they used cases that some associate was probably working throughout the night, just pushed it out there, and they didn't catch it, and they had to do that. So they're at a crisis right now because you know, they're the premier shop, and people are like, I'm paying $3,000 an hour for that.
SPEAKER_01I know, and it's like, yeah, I don't have to. I I just think I keep coming back to, I know I sound repetitive. It has to be used prudently and judiciously.
SPEAKER_00You gotta check it.
SPEAKER_01And it's I'm not saying that out of fear. I'm saying it, it's I you know what it's a tool. It's a tool. It's a tool, and I welcome it. And there's no reason to be afraid of it. I think it'll be good. But I just I don't I guess maybe for certain industries it could do it all. But for the industry that I I think if you're in the professional service industry, there's no way it's taking over. Now, yes, it will for accounting firms and maybe even law firms, some of the juniors. They're gonna be gone. They're gonna be gone. But you know, and yes, but and but it's not gonna take over completely.
SPEAKER_00Well, the problem is is that it's all the entry level, like you go get a job at McKinsey right out of it, like all those they're making slide decks. I did a presentation the other day at the Institute of Living, and I put in what I was wanted to talk about. It made me a 20 thing a slide deck, a PowerPoint in five minutes. That was exceptional. Exceptional. Like that would take somebody, you know, a couple of days. You give it to an associate to draft. That's all wiping all those entry-level folks out. Like even discovery, we get in a package of information, bank statements, whatever, and you have it analyze it, what the person's spending money on. It can do that. Where normally you'd build time on that. So we're gonna have to shift too because we bill by the hour. And now we can have it look at these types of things and really do those types of things where I can take on more cases now because I can do that. So the model's gonna have to shift. The entry-level jobs are really where things are gonna be troublesome. Young, you go to an accounting firm, you go to Deloitte, you get a great job out of the stuff that they're doing, AI can do, right? I know, I know. That's that's and the problem is is, and somebody wrote this article recently, is when those jobs go out of the way, then what happens is okay, it makes you you know more efficient, but who's gonna buy your product if there's a bunch of people that don't have jobs?
SPEAKER_01Well, and you said something, Rich, that I think is I think it's gonna create more entrepreneurs.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_01Because we've had we've had a paradigm shift with all this consolidation. There's fewer companies that have more have more control over people. And so, and usually it does, it takes a while, but ultimately it flips the other way and there's more people starting their business.
SPEAKER_00Mark Cuban said that too. There's like 33 million companies in the US. If you can have give advice to a young person, I would say learn this AI and just market yourself. Say, hey, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna automate five things in your small business and sell it to them for you know $1,500 a month subscription. You're gonna be their AI person. You go around 20 companies, right? You have $30,000 a month, you're making $350,000 a year and you're working out of the backseat of your car. Totally. That's I just give you a $300,000 job, just learn AI. It's that simple. It's it's and you're right. If you can automate you can go in and automate their intake, right? For instance, a lot of these companies, hello, the the this is Joe's pest control, right? They have five guys on the road, they have a lady or a guy that's answering the phones who's just you know texting the people. There's it's a it's a disaster how they do it. That could all be automated. Wow. That could all be automated. So if you can train them how to do that, and then like the new thing is, and then I'll wrap up. The new thing is they're doing is you can write in Claude, have it write an agent for you that will figure out when there's hail storms, right? You're a roofing company. And when there's hail storms, then you pull the next day the satellite data of all the houses in the area that were affected by the hail storm. And then you immediately will find out who lives in that house and send them through social media, through text, it'll say, Hey, Mr. Cashman, I see your house is affected by the hail. We have people in the area today, we'd like to do a free inspection, we work with the insurance companies. I mean, so a roofer who is a normal guy that's just got their hammer and stuff, you can then write that for them. Do you think how many business if 10 people out of the thousand people you do that, AI can do that in five minutes? That's huge. That's a that's a phenomenal example. That's an example of what they're doing. And so that's how it's changing. The guys that are in the trades that are that can use AI for that.
SPEAKER_01You can you can you can get a chance to get a chance to do that?
SPEAKER_00And if you had someone who who could do that for them and like and you charge them $1,500 a month, they can get rid of their their their their intake person and they can target people that need roofing by the satellite images that literally it searches overnight where there's hail stuff. That's amazing. That's where it's gonna change where it's gonna make people there's gonna make more millionaires because the one the companies that are gonna use that technology, but also the guy that's going around that has 10 clients like that, that he's just automating all of their intake and all of their billing and all of that stuff. That's an amazing thing. That's a great story. Well, listen, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I uh I I I I I've heard I've always wanted to get to know you more wonderful things from you I've heard the same and and uh I admire what you've done.
SPEAKER_00I I I like how you've uh you know, you're just this local kid who, you know, just took a chance and now you've got this thing and uh it's uh it's it's it's admirable and it's inspiring and uh so thank you for