Ep 1012: A Convo With Matthew Sheffield

In a special crossover episode, Driftglass sits down with Matthew Sheffield of Flux and the Theory of Change podcast — a journalist with a genuinely unusual vantage point on American radicalization. Sheffield grew up in a fundamentalist Mormon family, left that world, then spent years as one of the internet's first conservative bloggers before walking away from that movement too, disillusioned by its hostility to facts and to people. The conversation explores why things are happening the way they are in politics, religion, and media, rather than just chasing the next news cycle. It's a rare chance to hear two people compare notes from opposite sides of the same long road out of, and against, movement conservatism.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

You can listen to the professional left wherever you get your podcasts on Netroots Radio or at our website, proleftpod.com, or you can also contribute to this podcast. There's a PayPal button at our website, or you can mail us a letter andor contribution at P.O. Box 9133, Springfield, Illinois 62791.

SPEAKER_03 0:19

This is the podcast for August 4th, 2026. It's not safe for work.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

Recorded live from the Cornfield Resistance, where today we have a special guest. It's the Professional Lab for Drift Glass and Blue Gal. Hello, Darlene.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Hi there.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

Hello, everyone. We are recording this on Monday evening.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Because Tuesday, uh Blue Gal is not going to be joining us because we had a huge fight over the Odyssey.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

No, we did not.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

It was not historically accurate because that's what I look to Greek mythology for is historical accuracy.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

And and also uh big budget uh IMAX movies. You always look to those for historical accuracy.

SPEAKER_04 1:07

Absolutely. Every detail, and it was an amalgam of every other uh Christopher Nolan movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Yeah, in many ways.

SPEAKER_04 1:15

A lot of people on beaches, being rescued, running away, was a little bit of Dunkirk, a lot of Lord of the Rings and so forth. Anyway, but she's not going to be here tomorrow because uh I'm gonna record during the day with our friend Matthew Sheffield, who is a never Trump guy who was deep inside the conservative movement, did a lot of conservative media, and is not fence straddling and lecturing Democrats about how they need to become Republicans. He has gone all the way to our side of the aisle and is very, very um deeply involved in trying to get Democrats to take the need for democratic liberal media seriously and stuff like us.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

So we've had it, we've talked to him before, I think, on his show. We have we may have had him on our show too. I don't remember, but I think we did. Uh he's a good guy, he's a good guy.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

He's in the middle of a fundraiser right now. So we're gonna have him on and we're gonna talk a little. He's gonna give you his information about who he is, where he is, and his backstory, and you know where where he was born in a in a small log cabin deep inside Rush Limbaugh's radio studio, I think. Um, and then we're gonna talk about media, and we're gonna talk about politics, and we're gonna freestyle a little bit, and then we'll be back with a regular podcast that we do all the time on Thursday.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

So this is just a we decided we were to record this Monday night to explain my absence, and really it was we had this opportunity to have an a genuine never Trumper on who is genuinely serious about politics and not in bossing Democrats around, but has actually made the full conversion to uh pro-democracy, and uh he he certainly has thoughts about media that are very much in tune with us, and is a very smart guy. And uh we had this opportunity to have him on and also support him in his fundraiser and so forth. And uh Driftglass says, So, how do you feel about having him on? I said, if I have to edit three voices after an eight-hour day answering calls at the medical center, I'm gonna kill everybody.

SPEAKER_04 3:23

Yeah, we don't want that. This is not the Odyssey. Right, this is not the odd everyone doesn't die, you know?

SPEAKER_03 3:33

No, no, and uh what was it you said about the theme of the Odyssey?

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Oh, yeah chicks. Chicks, nothing but trouble, nothing but trouble.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

So that's another reason why I'm not on, apparently. Uh no, seriously. I said you guys record, have a sausage fest uh with without me, and I will paste it all together. I won't edit you guys unless one of you has a coughing fit. No, and uh otherwise you guys go and then we'll have a show.

SPEAKER_05 4:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Uh with you guys talking about things that really matter to us and to our listeners, and uh otherwise I'll have the night off, uh, which is a blessing.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

And and you might all you all might be confused because we uh we will record our usual intro and outro of some kind for our show. So you'll hear Blue Gal on the show tomorrow, but she won't be here tomorrow. So don't get confused. Don't be bad. Don't get don't get don't don't panic.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Don't it's not everything's fine, and we're we're looking forward to celebrating our 15th wedding anniversary.

SPEAKER_04 4:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Uh by not having a show on August 18th. So it's a going out to dinner that night, too, like we did for my birthday. Um, I guess the other thing we should do, Driftglass, is thank Bill of the Bill show.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Yes, Bill.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Uh I promoted that on Blue Sky, and I will also promote it at our Patreon page. By the way, everything on our Patreon page is available to the public. We don't do paywalls or there either. Nope. So if I if you ever are wondering, you know, oh, are Driftglass and Blue Gal gone for the year or they didn't do a show tonight, or something happened, I can't find their show, uh, just go over to patreon.com forward slash pro left pod and there'll be news of where we are and what happened. So uh if you're ever missing something, and of course all the internet kitties are over there. And uh as I say, uh if I if we're gonna miss a show, I usually put an announcement up there. And if we're on another show, it's either in our show notes or and or a link is posted to our Patreon page.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

Yeah, we try to stay real consistent about when we show up and what time of day, what day of the week we're there, and and we know that a lot of you sort of not you don't quite plan your week around this, but you kind of depend on oh, it's it's Thursday or Friday and what and and they're on, and I'll I'll pop it on, see what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Right. And so uh Right, and you listen to us the same time. We notice that from our stats. Uh thank you for eight million listens, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

Eight million listens, which is very, very strange. It's very strange.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah, over the course of 10 years, that's a lot for us.

SPEAKER_04 6:21

And with with you working full time, yeah, and me doing the stuff that we would both normally be doing during the day, plus whatever the hell I do, plus plus, plus. Um, I value routine very much these days. Yeah, yeah. I value a little bit of predictability because everything has to work just so to for the day to end with a delicious dinner between me and my wife.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

Um anything goes weird.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Getting me launched by eight o'clock into the office is another part of Drift Glass's routine.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

And and if anything glitches, um it it it frazzles me more than it should. So we know that you have a routine regarding us, and we try to stick to it to make sure you're never disappointed and there's always new something out there, even if it's only 10 minutes of us saying, sorry, we're doing other stuff right now.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

All right. Well, I wish you guys all the best and uh off with the show. On with the show.

SPEAKER_04 7:15

All right, love you, darling.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

I love you too. Have fun with Matthew Sheffield.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

I will. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Bye.

SPEAKER_04 7:22

Hello, everybody. I am here today with Matthew Sheffield, who's our guest today. As you all know, that Blue Gal cannot make it today because she's out doing honest work, and I'm here doing the dishonest work of podcasting. And we're gonna talk about Matthew and where he comes from and how he came to be uh a vibrant and passionate spokesperson for our side of the aisle, having come from the other side of the aisle. We're gonna talk about his book, which is amazing, and you should definitely check it out. But first, we have to do some science fiction business because I if I don't do science fiction business today, they will kill me because that's part of what we do. Today, this particular date is an important one in science fiction history. I would not dare pop quiz my guest with something out of a left field because that would be evil. So I'll just tell you it's based on the Ray Bradbury short story, uh, There Will Come Soft Rains, which was published on this day, May 6th, 1950, which is definitely not today. But the date, the date in the story is August 4th, 2026, which is pretty amazing because uh the 50s and 60s, those things were written for the far future of the 21st century, which is never gonna happen. It's so far distant. Um, and it's about it's a very Ray Bradbury story. It's about uh a house in Los Angeles that is the only thing left standing after a massive nuclear war. And uh the house is typical Ray Bradbury style is automated. So if Oh, I have read this.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Yeah, I have read this.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

Isn't it a wonderful story? Yeah, yeah. Um the only thing available, the only remnants of the people are like the flash burns on the wall where they blast like burn their shadows into the wall. The house just cranks along, you know. Don't forget, today is August 4th, 2026. It's so and so's birthday, and it just keeps doing that thing when there's no one around. And then rain comes. I'm about to spoil a what is it, 70-year-old story. So I apologize. Uh, rains come, they fall, a tree falls into the house, the house starts sets itself on fire, catches fire, and starts saying, There's a fire, we should really put the fire out. It's very important we put the fire out. It's very bad, and slowly it dies. And that's the end of the story. It's it's a somber reflection on the folly of nuclear war and human fragility and and how machines can actually be our friends uh and work on our behalf. But it's a lovely story. It's in Ray Bradbury is uh, I always tell people this is the entry-level drug for science fiction. Ray Bradbury is easy to read, very poetic, beautiful writer, and um and tells very humane stories about things people are gonna relate to. And then we get to the clanking robots and the bug-eyed monsters. So thank you for indulging me, Matthew. Um, science fiction university portion of our program is now closed. So I would like you to tell people all about who you are.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

All right. Well, uh, thanks for having me here, Drift Glass. A pleasure to Blue Gal by proxy. Um, yeah, well, so I was born and raised in a religious cult. Uh that's how it all got started. And uh it there is something uh I I later discovered oddly relevant about that to right wing media, because as it turns out, a lot of right-wing media is owned by religious cults. Um so the Washington Times uh most prominently uh got started in 1982 uh by the Mooney cult. Um and uh the uh Epic Times right now, um which is at one of the biggest right-wing sites, and and they're so new, relatively speaking, that a lot of people have never heard of them, uh, but very, very popular. Um they're owned by the Falong Gong cult out of China. Um, and then there's um there's another one uh that started up somewhat recently, and I forget I forget which one it is, but uh you know, be then of course they've got the all their uh bizarre evangelical and uh Catholic subcults as well. Uh so but we don't have to get into those. Anyway, so my the cult that I was in uh was headed by my father, who uh it was he he he grew up and kind of had his own weird interpretation of Mormonism. Um and Mormonism has a history of being like the Pentecostals, uh and a lot of people may not know that uh because but early early on they were very much into the holy roller stuff, rolling around in the in the church and uh you know doing the gift of tongues um stuff. Although they weren't they didn't do the the babble uh babbling stuff. Um they imagined that that they were that they could have the that they could speak the other languages, uh real languages. That's what they thought they were they were doing.

SPEAKER_04 12:15

Well, and since we're a local central and southern Illinois podcast, that's true, yeah. Many Illinois people will understand that Cairo, Illinois plays a rather substantial role in the history of Mormonism.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yeah, well, and then uh Joseph Smith, their founder, uh, he was killed in Navoo, Illinois. Um, murdered, yeah, murdered right here in Illinois, yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

Yeah, drove them west. I mean, this really was the impetus for heading out west.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

It was, yeah. Um, and so anyway, they got out to Utah and um over time just became you know somewhat less weird over time. Um, and uh but there's a there's a there's a always a pretty large subset of Mormons who want to keep Mormonism weird. And my father was one of them. Uh and so uh they have a tradition of that uh uh from the earliest days of that everyone should be a prophet. Uh and he believed that. So he thought he he was a prophet as well. Um and so he quit his job as a professor of guitar and uh music composition at the University of Utah, and decided he was going to play guitar on the street um and uh be a minister.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

What what year what year would that have been, roughly?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Um, this was let's see, that was about 1977. Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

So that having people playing guitars on the street and and talking odd religions would not have been uncommon in the 1970s.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Okay, well, I was barely there, so I uh I I'll believe you on that one. Um and uh yeah, I've heard many things about the 70s. Uh usually they involve drugs, but but uh they often involve religion too, and uh very often very often linked historically, um even though maybe not as much now. Um and so anyway, uh he was so so that's that's how I spent my childhood. Um and needless to say, being a street musician is a pretty poor avocation. Uh and so we lived in uh uh campgrounds. Um sometimes we lived on the street, sometimes we lived in a car. Um, and uh, you know, and then as uh we as he uh started getting money from his father, who was the Republican whip uh in the Senate of Utah, um because uh that like some people rip rebel against their parents by you know becoming a drug addict or uh going on a you know becoming uh uh following a rock band around. Well, my father decided to rebel by becoming more religious, uh so there's that. Um and uh anyway, so eventually, you know, he thankfully for us, we uh started getting more um money and eventually, you know, always lived in house. Um, but that wasn't for a long time. And uh how how big was your family at this point, your immediate family, mom, dad, and um well, we um uh so I have I have uh eight siblings, but two of them died as infants, including my twin brother. Um and uh and uh yeah, and he died of SIDS. Um so and it was uh yeah, it was really unfortunate. Yeah. Um and so but you know, so part of it, besides the fact that uh we we didn't have any money, he um, you know, just he was always getting into conflicts with the local Mormon leaders because again, as I said, wanted to keep Mormonism weird and and they wanted everybody to join it. Um and like especially in the 80s, they were they they did all these ad campaigns. I don't know if anybody remembers those uh things that they were saying, I'm a Mormon, and or like and they they paid like they put put these ads everywhere. Um so they he was always having conflicts. And anyway, long story short, uh you know, we did that for a number of years, and uh eventually uh all eight of his children uh we started uh uh uh to play the music along with him as well. Um and we played uh classical music.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

Um Wow, yeah. I mean that at the at this moment it becomes a Johnny Carson song, uh not Johnny Cash, a Johnny Cash song, you know? Papa sang bass and mama sang tenor, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Yeah, well, and we did sing as well, actually. So yeah. Um and uh you know, but but we never got anywhere though, because uh because when you when you have when you think that you're God, uh needless to say, uh your business associations are not very good. Um and so, but uh the the weird thing is though that uh uh you know at that uh up at up until the the religious right and talk radio got started, there were a lot of people in the United States who who had you know very traditionalist or fundamentalist beliefs, and they weren't political really. Um and or they were not even Republicans.

SPEAKER_04 17:23

Jimmy Carter was one of them, you know. I mean, Jimmy Carter had a very, very deeply held belief in God and his place in the universe. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, and so that actually was my dad. Um, he um actually even thought of himself as some sort of moderate um in those uh those days. Um and uh and I don't quite know how that worked, and it was probably more in his mind than anything else, but uh at least he you know he wasn't a loyal Republican. Um and uh so but it but as talk radio came along, um so I by this point I had gotten into college and uh started doing uh websites uh in the early days back in the old days of the internet. Um and uh so but but the but as in our travels across the country playing our music, um we you know there was nothing else there. And so, like many people, many stories. There's a there's a great uh documentary uh called uh what The Brainwashing of My Dad. Uh really great story about how talk radio uh sucked the mind out of her father. Um and uh that kind of happened to my family and I. Uh we there was nothing there, you know, on the road, so we're we had the radio on. And as is the case in many uh places in the United States, there was nothing on the radio except Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage and you know all these other assholes.

SPEAKER_04 18:57

Um all I can say is every day I give thanks that my mother, driving her fastback or her her beetle across the country with us kids, had an A-track tape player that rotated through cabaret and like the music men and whatever else entertained her. So she probably saved us from that fate.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Yeah, yeah. Well, good for her. Good for her.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah, exactly. And um, yeah, and it's really disturbing just how much, you know, and this has been going on for decades, and nobody in the Democratic Party gives a shit about any of this happening. Um and they know it's and they know that it's been happening. Like this is not something that they are just unaware of. They know that it's and they choose to do nothing about it.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

Um now, uh do they choose to do nothing or are they choosing to choose to do nothing the wrong things, the the comforting wrong things?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Um it's they choose to do nothing. Um so and and that and I guess I let me I'll get into a bit of the book here for a second. That's oh, title? What's the title of your book? The book is called What Republicans Know. Uh and basically it's about how how is it that Republicans can have horribly unpopular policy positions and yet still win elections better than 50%. Um, and the answer primarily is um media and ecosystems. That's the answer. Um and the and I have to so I I'm writing it in in progress here, so this is why I need people to to buy it and help me uh finish it. Um, but one of the points that I'm going to add is that so Democrats back in the day, like many of the newspapers, if not most of the newspapers in the United States, were owned by the political parties. That's who owned them.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

Oh, Chicago. Hey, welcome to Chicago. Tribune was a Republican paper, yeah. And the the Sun Times was a Democratic paper, and that's the way it was. And they had three other papers too.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

So yeah, well, well, so those papers were like uno, they were unofficially uh allied with them, but like, no, literally, there was the Springfield Republican. That was a newspaper. There was, you know, and and and to this day, there's only one newspaper that I'm aware of that has the vestigio party name, and that is the Arkansas Democrat Gazette. But it was owned by the Democratic Party. Yeah. Um, you know, and and and and the reason being is that the parties understood back in the day that number one, these things, newspapers, aren't going to be profitable enough, so we have to subsidize them, number one. And number two, it's too important for if the other guys have a newspaper and we don't have a newspaper, then we're going to get screwed. Um, so we need to have a newspaper. And so they did. So that was how the media worked for a hundred years in American history. That's correct. Yeah. And it's completely forgotten now. Um, and uh, you know, and and and we have gone back to the future in that regard. We but the Democrats have not. Um the Democrats are stuck in, you know, 1990. That's where they're stuck at. Because it was good to them. 1990 was good to them, yeah. It was, yeah. And so anyway, so that back to the story. Um so gradually, though, uh oh, and I guess sorry, the la why I even said it was that uh so when Air America was was uh you know the the one attempt by uh the powers that be in the Democratic Party to have something, something that was talking to the you know uh the vast geographic majority of America. Um they begged the party, would you please help us keep going here? Because our asshole co-founders stole a bunch of money from the uh boys and girls club of uh uh it was it some it was some city in New York, I think. Um, and and so they had to give it back uh because they're like, well, we don't want this. Uh you know, and and and so they they were renting out of money, and then Mint Romney's Baying Capital bought the stations that they were on. And um, and then we're like, yeah, we're gonna cut you off, or we're gonna drastically raise the rate of money that you have to pay.

SPEAKER_04 23:15

Well, if if there's a uh podcast I do appear on on a fairly regular basis, then Nicole Sandler show. She brought old timer, been in radio forever, then moved to political radio. But she, I believe she tells the story about how she was on the air or was getting ready to go on the air with a fairly important story. Um, and some and somebody's by the way, oh, we're all employed now. It did the hammer fell that fast. It was Air America's over, your show is canceled, and we're done. And it was like, I guess I'm gonna go on anyway because this is what I do, but I'll just do it on my own. But I remember how fast the axe fell on that thing and how the finger pointing and the who's to blame for this, but there was we were bereft, there was no place else to go. We were robbed of the one thing we had.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

So, yeah, well, and and um you know, and that's the the horrible irony of American politics is that you know uh the Republicans are always talking about how the Democrats are a bunch of socialists and commies. Well, guess what? When it comes to media, the Republicans are socialists and the Democrats are absolute, you know, uh Ayn Rand capitalists. That's how Democrats view media. Like the Republicans love wasting billions, millions of dollars on on media outlets that will never become profitable. The Washington Times, founded in 1982, never once made a profit in its entire history. National Review, never once, 1955, never once.

SPEAKER_04 24:46

Oh, uh the weekly standard, yeah. Um paid for by Rupert Murdoch, never, never ever made a profit. And they only had like a readership of like 50,000, but the 50,000 they had was Dick Cheney and people like that who took that's how they got their message into the White House and into the people who could make decisions, but they never assumed it would be profitable.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

No, and and uh the New York Post, like even now, uh it's I don't think it's ever been profitable either. And it's it's it's been continuously unprofitable, and it doesn't matter to Rupert Murdoch because he values the voice. And and in fact, he's so committed to it that while all the entire newspaper industry in America is dying and being shuttered or being you know eaten to death by venture capital funds, Rupert Murdoch is starting a California post in Southern California. That's how committed these people are to media and how much they don't care about capitalism and profits.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

No, it's it's the it's the patient capital of fascism. It is they're willing to invest over decades. And and in Springfield, we had we used to have a newspaper here. We still sort of technically do. It's obituaries, um, local sports teams, and rip and read stuff from Rockford, Illinois, which is 400 miles away from here. And public notices, I'm sure. Yeah, exactly. But but the Illinois, um the Illinois Policy Institute, which is the Republican, you know, used to be libertarian, now is Republican, which is I don't know, six blocks from my house, um does all the rip and read stuff. So, you know, the these newspapers that are slowly dying and and that don't really care and got rid of their editorial board and published out of a out of a used to be huge. There's no more, um, there's no more shadowing reporters, there's no more training young journalists at the state capitol, which is insane because this was the capital newspaper. But the people who who generate white papers for right-wing lunatics are cranking out stories for them, knowing that one in ten is gonna get picked up and and treated as news. And and you can see it happening right in front of you like an ant farm. You can see the effect of it, and it it it and they're just gonna keep growing, as you can tell. Well, which is what your book is about, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, and it has a real effect, and and it had an effect on my family and I. So, you know, we were we, you know, we were super religious um and whatnot, but not politically engaged. But, you know, as as I was driving the thousands of miles uh a year, um, you know, I got radicalized. And um then um at some point, you know, so we started watching, you know, the nightly news um with uh Dan Rather, um CBS CD News. And uh, you know, and nobody had any reason, as far as I know. Back in those days, people watched a channel, you know, what for whatever reason. Three choices. Yep, that's it. Um, and so that was the one we watched, and uh my brother and I we decided that uh Dan Rather was he was too mean to our fellow Christian Kenneth Starr, who we thought was an upstanding, fine uh person who was just trying to do his job. Uh and Dan Rather was mean to him. And so we uh so my brother, uh my one of my younger brothers, he uh he said, Um, I want to have a website that that has some quotes that show Dan Rather has a liberal bias. Um and I said, Oh, that's that's great. Um and then I said, But you know what? I've been making all these websites. Um let's make a giant website um that has Dan Rather quotes uh on like 20 different political issues. Well, so we ended up having, I think, you know, like maybe uh and of course most things were text back in those days, right? Exactly we launched in 2000.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Uh, but we actually did have videos, and like that made us kind of special back in those days. Um you and crooks and liars, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Crooks and liars was the was the only site I know of well back in the day where they had embeddable video where you could actually you know find what you were looking for and put it on your blog, and and it and that's how they really made themselves known.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Yeah, there was some guy also had a website called Cheese and Crackers. You remember that one? I don't remember that now. Okay, yeah. There uh anyway, but um well, and that we didn't have embeds actually, we just had downloads, but um and anyway, so you know we we launched it and uh we were we didn't put our names on it though because my my parents had a prompting from God that Dan Rather would would sue us or send someone to kill us. Oh well, you know, okay. Um so so we didn't put our names on it. Uh and uh so I was at yeah, I was in college, and I think uh Greg, my brother, had just graduated from high school um is when we launched it. Um and anyway, so you know uh it was and just just as an example of how welcoming the right-wing media world is, on the second day that we had been launched, Rush Limbaugh promoted a show, uh the website on his show. Second day. Amazing. Second day, yeah, um, you know, and and we kept plugging along, and then eventually Fox uh uh started promoting it as well. And in fact, uh uh Edie Hill, who was uh most infamous now for for saying that uh Barack and Michelle Obama were doing a terrorist fist jab. You remember that? I remember that like it was yesterday. Yep, yeah. Um so but but before she had said that and gotten fired for it. Um back back when Republicans pretended not to be racist, um uh she had said that that our website, ratherbias.com, was her favorite website. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

And she would quote from it on the air, and the other people like uh the the two monkeys sitting next to her would would quote from it and they'd laugh at all our jokes, and you know, like that's how much they love promoting each other.

SPEAKER_04 30:50

And and just now quick question: how old were you when this happened? Roughly, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Um I was in my my early 20s when I started.

SPEAKER_04 31:00

See, getting affirmation from people who are famous and successful, telling you that you're doing a good job and you're doing such a good job, I'd love to quote your stuff is powerful stuff, man.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

Oh, it was like incredibly powerful stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yeah, um, yeah, and in retrospect, you know, as an adult um who walked away from right-wing media, uh, you know, like it was bad for me that I never had any conventional internships or anything like that um in college. But you know, if I had stayed in right wing media, obviously um that was uh and when I was in right wing media, it was my calling card, and everybody's like, Oh, you're the blogger that took down Rand Rather. Um, so of course, you know, that opened a lot of doors for me. Um and um anyway, so have you spoken to Dan since then?

SPEAKER_04 31:48

Have you have you and he um no?

SPEAKER_02 31:51

I I I I well I've never seen him anywhere, so I don't know uh you know how I would get that opportunity.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

But yeah, it would make it a lot of surprise guest. I didn't tell you this. Our surprise guest today is Mr. No, I'm just kidding, I would never ever do that.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Okay, well, hey Dan.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Um, yeah, you know, I mean it's interesting conversation for sure. Um and um anyway, so you know, the everybody was just you know constantly supporting us and and really keep uh helping us get going. And um and also I guess and you uh as uh somebody who criticizes the the uh mainstream uh supposedly liberal media, they also loved us as well. Um and so we we got quoted. I I personally was interviewed in every major American newspaper um uh at one point. Um and I think that except for the Wall Street Journal, that was the only big paper we never got in, um, which was weird that it not them. Yeah, well, you know, uh you know how they're kind of snobs over at the over the world. Uh yeah, that the New York Times loved us though, actually.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

They they quoted us all the time.

SPEAKER_04 33:00

Now, were people in the sort of respectable political world of Republican politics? You might not know this. Were they aware that this was like a transmission system for getting messages to their people and getting feedback from their people that was you guys? That you were kind of the the connective tissue between the front office, which has to look respectable and and stay above it all, and the people who were actually grinding it out and and and radicalizing people. Were they aware that you existed and and knew who you were?

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Um, well, let me think here. Um as far as like back then, yeah. Um so we were never really contacted by any Republican people, per se, party people. Um, but um, I mean it was definitely the case that I'm sure that they read us. I mean, you know, the fact that we were being promoted on Fox frequently, like obviously they were. Um they knew about us. Um, and so yeah, so I guess we that website wasn't particularly integrated with Republican politicos, um, as far as I know. Like maybe they read our stuff and just didn't tell us. Um, but oh, I guess sorry, I do take it back that, you know, so with the uh so 2004, just for people who may not have been following politics at that point, uh the 2004 campaign, uh that was what got Dan rather fired from CBS uh was that he had used some fake documents in his story, or like they were they were documents that somebody had typed in Microsoft Word, right? Um, that were uh it was that was the documents were it was supposedly a letter from some guy of the Texas Air National Guard saying, Oh, your daddy wants you to get in here, uh, so you don't have to go in the draft. So go ahead, yeah, sure, we'll let you do it. Um, and you know, uh to this day, nobody you know knows for sure exactly whether that happened or not, but I mean it seems pretty likely that something like that happened.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Yeah, well, your dad is George H. W. Bush, yeah, who I think he was the CIA director at that time. Um bassitor to China at some point, I think, in there somewhere. So something like that, yeah. He was a he was a hitter, he was a party insider. And so pulling a couple of strings to get your kid a nice job, you know, guarding the skies over Midland, Texas, is not a stretch of the imagination.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Yeah, yeah. Um, and that actually was was our position. Like we weren't saying that he never did it, um, and which did actually set us apart from the from our colleagues. Um, and I and I think maybe that was part of why the mainstream media liked us more uh than some of these other right-wing blogs, because we were not frothing at the mouth and insane. Um, and uh, you know, and we and we we saw uh and thought of the other guys as that quite a bit, actually. Um there was uh uh and so but at the same time, you know, of course, we we hated the Democrats, so we were okay uh being on the side with uh people we thought were crazy because we thought the Democrats were crazier.

SPEAKER_04 36:07

Um just just so you know, 2004 was the year I started blogging. I mean, I started commenting that because that was the year that radicalized a bunch of us, which was we could not get it through our heads how pardon me for saying this, a dry drunk half-wit who lied us into the wrong war could lose to a war hero. It just was unfathomable to us that people, having seen George Bush in operation for four years, would re-elect this guy, and they did. And a lot of us went, okay, we've missed something really important, something else is going on here that we need to find out about. And that's when blog exploded. Uh, that's when Talking Points Memo, that was my first contact with the blogosphere. Then I went over to the now defunct Gilliard news blog and so on and so forth. But that is the story of a whole lot of people that you might know or come in contact with. That was the moment when we said politics, as normal as usual, is not working, something has gone drastically wrong, and the people who were supposed to protect us from it have failed pretty catastrophically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Um, yeah, and I I remember that. And uh there were the the Jesus land maps uh that came out after 2004. Um and uh yeah, so it was and you know, and the sad thing is while you guys, as the outsiders, you realized that something was badly wrong with the state of American politics in the Democratic Party. Nobody in the Democratic Party actually learned anything uh at that moment or since. Uh sadly.

SPEAKER_04 37:40

Well, I'll I'll let me give you one anecdote about their venture into blogging, which was um, and they're they're they're they lived in terror of people like us because we would scare away the centrists and the fence straddlers that they believe is the their core constituents, because that's what they get told by Meet the Press. The Clinton people told them as well. Yeah, well, and that was a repeated every on every Sunday show and every major news.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Triangulation, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

Yeah, yeah, it's just it's stay in the center, stay in the middle, stay in the center. Um, the Edwards campaign did in fact hire two bloggers. It's like this blogging thing, we gotta get on this stuff. So we don't understand it, we're not sure what it is or does, but we need we know we need it. And they hired one of whom my wife and I knew very well, and they one of those two had written some kind of scathing stuff about Catholics. Um, and the other one had nothing to do with that. And the minute the uh the right-wing blogosphere got a hold of any information about one of them, published it, Edwards fired them both. It was like, oh, can't have controversy. I can't, I can't can't have people who are actually like on the ground who know shit and do things and are activists involved in my campaign because my campaign is about, you know, I just want the technology, I just want the the machine, I don't want the people who operate it because they're scary to me. And that's when we knew that, oh no, no, no, we're gonna be outsiders for a long time because the party apparatus does not want people like us involved in the decision making, which you've sort of seen how that's worked out. Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Well, and so uh yeah, needless to say, the Republican Party kind of took the opposite um lesson from that moment. And so uh I started uh my brother and I started our own company, um, like fresh out of college. Um I and I I so I never had an entry-level job in my whole life. Uh never had to look for a job. Um, I uh I was 27 because I I took I grabbed I was at working in my parents' cult the whole time for their real estate business eventually. Um, because after my grandfather died, he we we uh he gave us a lot of money and uh my dad wasted most of it on regard stupid, idiotic, you know, those crazy ads you used to see in newspapers that were like, you know, Jesus is coming back next Thursday. You better repent. Uh those were the kind of ads that my dad paid for. Like he he blew, I think a hundred thousand dollars on a Washington Post ad of saying that Bill Clinton should be impeached. Uh and well, no, it worked. So you know what? And it's funny, he um he he was so fond of saying uh the day after it came out, he said, you know, I was watching Newt Gingrich on TV, and he had a a spring in his step after my ad came out. You could just tell it. Yeah, uh, and and even at that time, I thought that that was bullshit. Um, and so like because and and because this is the thing I think that a lot of people who who are not on the right uh that you you gotta understand that that believing the line between delusion and deceit, it's it's it's blurrier than a Robin Thick song. Absolutely is how it's so like so so so Donald Trump, the fact that he lies constantly, the fact that he you know changes his mind every five minutes, um, it doesn't matter to them because that's how they are. He is them. Um, you know, and then the other the the the the other kind of signal achievement of the Trump coalition is that he's stupid. Um and so America is filled, every country is filled, with stupid people. Uh and so Donald Trump basically has he he he he sent the bullhorn to the racists and he sent the bullhorn to the stupid people. Because he did. And that's how he went.

SPEAKER_04 41:36

And and and getting back to something, but this is about the elites failing to learn the lesson. Um Republican establishment uh did not learn the lesson because they they had their you know, they had their autopsy in 2012, and Tim Miller and a bunch of other people wrote it. It was like, you know what we got to do is we gotta reach out to women and young people and be less racist and then immigrants and so forth. And Trump said, Oh no, you've got it exactly wrong. You've exactly backwards. We need to be more awful and more racist and louder about it and prouder about it, because Donald Trump understood the base in a way the party never did, the the elites of the party never did, the legacy media never did, Democratic elites never did, they never understood who the base of the Republican, and they're making the same mistake now, frankly, with Democrats. They Democratic Party doesn't know who their base is anymore. No, and so yeah. Just saying, Trump understood what they did not, and he and he succeeded by doing exactly the opposite of what the elites told him to do, which was be nicer and be more inclusive. He said, Fuck that. No, no, no, no. I know I know what my people want. I am I am right wing radio incarnate, and that's what they want. I'm the I'm the prince who was promised. I was I they've been waiting for me for 30 years, and here I am. And it turned out to be absolutely true.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Yeah, well, you know, and actually he paid a guy to listen to right wing radio before he ran for president. Really? Actually, yeah, the guy spent six months listening to all of the hosts every day, um, and recording them and taking notes on what they said and the issues that they were interested in and the phrases that they love to use. Well and he gave it to Donald Trump. This and that became how he he set his strategy.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

This gets us back to your book, which is Republicans learned the lesson of from Democrats. Democrats don't learn the lesson of Republicans. So why don't you want to walk me through a little bit of that?

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Sure, yeah. So um, and and and it's true because like after so after Barack Obama won in 2008, um there were several books that came out, and uh in 2012, there was another one that was like, Oh, look at these smart Obama people, look at all these cool things that they did uh when when when they won. And and every Republican in DC was like, I'm reading those books. And in fact, the the the uh uh I one of the the congressional Campaign committees, they literally assigned their employees to read these books. Yeah. Because they're like, look, these guys are doing are have some good techniques. We're going to copy all of them. Um because they really do believe in innovation on there, at least in campaigns. Like they hate innovation in normal life, they hate science, they hate education. Uh, you know, and yeah, and you can see them cutting the budgets and all that. And so um, but they love being better at politics because literally that's the only thing they do. They cannot do anything else except for politics, uh, because they are trying to repeal modernity. Yes. And so they have a movement mentality that everything is about that. And so uh and so that's why they they they are constantly paying attention to what are the Democrats doing? What can we learn from them? What are the the liberals doing? What are the socialists doing? Um, not only as a as cam as you know, sort of right-wing media fodder, but also just as a professional uh courtesy, um, you know, or professional relevance.

SPEAKER_04 45:06

What did what did uh Patton yell, at least in the movie, when he beat Rommel's army, which is I read your book. You know, they they they show him the night before the battle reading Rommel's like on tank battles in his in his bunk, going, okay, now I know what you're gonna do. Now I know how to beat you. And Democrats have been very open about how six how they succeeded in doing Obama twice. Yeah, and what what sort of fool wouldn't learn from that? And yet Republicans have shown how they how they can win, how they win. And you're right, it's all about media, it's all about the media ecosystem, number one, first and foremost. And I I know you're very eloquent on the subject. I'm just still baffled as to why Democrats don't invest a thousand times more than they already do in building media and building an ecosystem.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Well, and I'll tell you why they don't. It's because they think they know everything. That's what it comes down. It's I mean, it's so that's the simple version. The simple version is they think they know everything. Um, and here's here's the other weird thing that, and I talk about this in the book, is that you know, political science departments in America, you know, they they are pretty pretty overwhelmingly democratic and left leaner. That is a fact. Uh, because, well, being decent, number one, uh, makes you not want to be a Republican. Uh so that uh that's and being uh you know, uh having any kind of uh education, you know, if it if it's between a party that says the earth is 6,000 years old and uh everyone uh needs to be uh you know have the Bible in schools and whatnot, then and then you have a party that doesn't say that. Well, a normally decent uh person, regardless of what they think about anything, uh if they're you know have a smidgen of education and common sense, they're not gonna be in that party. So political science departments are overwhelmingly democratic, and yet the Democratic Party never listens to anything that they say. Within the academic political science, for instance, um, it has been it is the consensus, and it has been the consensus for decades that TV ads do not work in presidential campaigns, they don't work, um, and it and to the extent they work at all, it's over within 72 hours. Yeah, whatever effect they have is gone.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

There is no lasting effect, it it does not create a movement, it doesn't create momentum, it doesn't create anything lasting. And I I'm remembering um this is terrible of me. My wife will hate me for this because she thinks it's pornography, which it really is. Uh, the West Wing. Um a show from the previous century, for goodness sakes, when they had Bruno Giannelli on there, and Bruno's price for coming in to save the uh the Dartliff campaign was 12% of the ad buy because that's power. Being able to get that money and direct it to your people and allocate where it goes, that's power and influence. And there's just, it appears to me, there are just way too many consultants in the middle whose livelihoods depend on directing huge amounts of money towards their friends who make ads and their friends who produce ads and so forth. And there's no equivalent structure in the middle to say, no, no, no, no, no. Those people are leading you down a garden path that has doomed you. You need to invest in in large organizations, exactly, a permanent movement organization, which we used to understand in this country.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

Well, we did, and and like, and and here's the other, even more perverse thing is that because of the right wing has invested in in media ownership to a large degree. So, you know, not now like such as CBS and uh and uh you know David Ellison's trying to get CNN, uh, but you know, there's Sinclair Media, there is these right wing talk radio stations, etc., etc. And there's other local station conglomerates as well that are right wing, right wing. Um so it is now the case that the Democratic Party donors, that they, you know, the people who are bothered every single day, come on, chip in five dollars, won't you do that? Chip in. They love that phrase, chip in. Like fuck you. Um they are taking the hard-earned dollars of the democratic loyalists, and they are giving them to right-wing media. They have they have subsidized, if you add it all up, um, and I haven't I haven't done the exact numbers here, but if you add up over the decades, they have probably given Sinclair and Fox and all these right-wing talk radio companies, they have given them over a billion dollars to right-wing media. So I mean this is this is outrageous. This is asinine. Um, but this is what they're doing because they don't know any better. And they are morons. Like the the the they these campaign consultants, you're right. Like the the the proximate reason is that they're enriching themselves. But the the other the the larger reason is that they think, well, this is how it's done. Uh and and and like so that that that's the other weird thing is so the Democrats are the are the Ayn Rand capitalists of media, but then they're also the conservatives about politics, how it's done. So when it comes to how to do politics, Republicans are the wild-eyed radicals who will try anything, who will innovate, you know, anything, we will steal ideas from wherever. And the Democrats are like, no, this is how it's done by golly.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

And I've got my you know, my black suit and and red tie, and we're gonna do that. And here's my process, you know.

SPEAKER_04 50:46

I'm also I'm also 70 years old.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

Yeah, yeah. James Carville, like, what the fuck? This guy hasn't won won a campaign since 1996. And here he is, the expert.

SPEAKER_04 50:59

Yeah, and he's quitting the party. He's quitting the party because them damn socialists are coming in here taking things over. And I at least do yeah, exactly. We we make a very big deal, as you know, we're very liberal web uh uh podcasts. We make a big deal about how um how the base of the Republican Party is now just write them off. I mean, just not not morally, you know, they should have good health care, they should have clean drinking water, etc. You don't want to you don't want to put them in a you don't want to put them off the continent, but right quit trying to appeal to reason for people who have rejected reason. Yeah and quit trying to quit trying to be a messenger when the person when you walk into the room and think, oh, he's a communist, he's a baby killing communist, why should I listen to him? Because they're just walled off and they're and the worst thing in the world to a conservative is admitting they're wrong. They would rather pull their own arm off and admit they're wrong. You know, conservatism never fails, it is only failed by others.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

So well, although, see, but you could say that about the Democratic Party.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

What I was just gonna say, that's exactly what I was gonna say is they can't they cannot get past 1990. No, they cannot get it through their heads that everything has changed and they either need to change with it or get the hell out of the way. Yeah, and and that there are people out here who would love to be a part of changing it, who've been out here in the friggin', you know, out in the wastelands for decades pounding away. I was delighted that our allies at at the Pod Save America and the Bulwark this week had a joint podcast together where they discovered, much to their surprise, that you know, maybe the real problem is Republican voters. Like great insight, boys. You know, and I put it on my blog, you just discovered oxygen. Congratulations. That's and but you think it's a rare element that nobody else has ever talked about. Go back and visit what people have been writing about for 25 years, and you'll find all the answers and all the clues there. And I don't know how to get through to those people. Um other than successful campaigns by people who do change things at the congressional level might be a lesson to them. I mean, Barack Obama did change things, it he did shake them up into what was possible. A weird guy with a strange last name from a city who's black might actually be a viable candidate in this particular environment. And then he became the you know the biggest centrist in the universe and wanted to be bipartisan and broke my heart in that way. But what what do you think it will take to sort of break through or replace the people who are sitting atop the pile going, I don't want to know anything new. I want things to be the way they were, you know, and I don't want to repeal modernity, but I do want to repeal the last 40 years and I want it to be 1990 all over again.

unknown 53:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Um well, so yeah, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_04 53:47

And how do we fix this, Matthew? I mean, you've got a book and everything, so tell me, how do we fix this? In in five easy lessons that won't cost me anything.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

The one weird trick, right? Yeah, that's what we need. Um so I guess well, let me step back into the story a little bit to answer that. So uh so after I was had had my company, um, and so I created um Newsbusters, which is kind of like uh right-wing media matters. Um, and then I was the first online managing editor of the Washington Examiner. I did campaign work. Um, and you know, I was making a lot of money. Um, and I had employees and contractors. Um, and I, you know, I was like, well, let me, I'm gonna write one of those. Here's how my party can do better books. Um, and so it was um so I started writing it and and by that point I had left Mormonism and uh religion generally, and I was like, you know, we need to accept that a lot of people in America, the majority, are not gonna be Christian fundamentalists. Um, and we just need to accept that. It doesn't mean you can't be Christian or whatever, it just means you need to accept that they're not, they don't want to take the Bible literally, and they don't think that it's you know, that uh being uh gay or lesbian is sinful. Um, they're not ever going to think that. So you should just accept that. Um, so I guess I was I was kind of on that on that uh Republican autopsy report before they had even lost. Uh because I thought there was a chance that Mint Romney was gonna lose in in 20 um 12. And um uh so And you were a prophet in that regard. Congratulations. So yeah, I know, yeah. All the Republicans were like, oh man, Obama's gonna lose. This is this because like the way that you guys thought that John Kerry was a lock. Republicans thought that Mitt Romney was a lock. Because this was the first time that in a long time that they had actually had a competent person who had had, you know, uh actual governing, you know, because like he he had won in a democratic state and he was actually pretty well liked. And he'd even take in Obama's health care plan.

SPEAKER_04 55:57

So like Republicans were like, he's gonna look, he looked like a president.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Yeah, he was out of center, yeah, central casting guy. Um, you know, and you can say whatever you want about it, you know, and like he'd done the Olympics. Like this was for once. Here was a Republican who actually had governing experience, who actually had successful private sector, like he ticked all the boxes and he looked at the part. Um, so they thought for sure he was gonna win, and then he didn't. Um, and so like a lot of them lost their shit after that. Um, but uh interestingly enough, though, um there were still so so this is why Trump did what was able to do what he did, because the Republican Party, even though they were investing in media, they didn't actually do it as much as they do now. Um, so they uh like it was only after Trump that you had saw this vast profusion of of right-wing uh media. And so, like, for instance, now you know there's so there's Fox, but there's also you know, six other ones that are even crazier than Fox. And those things did not exist at that time. Um they weren't there, like Newsmax.

SPEAKER_04 57:08

Newsmax was a website, that's all it was. Success is success imitates success. Now, I realize I've kept you for nearly an hour, so we have to wind down a little bit. But first of all, I want people to know where they can find you on these here internets. I know you have a flux community, I know you have a website, I know you have a book, and I'd like you to just tell the good people who listen, all nine of them who listen to this podcast, um, where they can find you and and what you have on offer for them today.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

Um, sure. Well, so the book is what Republicans know. Um, and uh you can find that. Um I if you go to well, I I I guess I could uh put a link to it um on on the top. Uh go to flux.community. Uh there will be a link there that you can uh get to that and uh click that. And uh there's the the full the full book is available for $15. It's an ebook. Um and then uh you can read the first uh part of it, uh quite a bit of it, actually, uh for free to see if you like it.

SPEAKER_04 58:09

I know I have, and it's it is very good. I mean, it really does. I mean, maybe I'm biased because it's like it seems to me in my own out of my own hymn book, which I really do appreciate, but it's really good and it's really practical, and it does have a sense of you come from this community. You can speak with authority about who these people are and how to beat them and what Democrats have done wrong and how to fix it.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

Yeah. Um, yeah, so there, so that's the the main uh way to if you're interested in this topic, and then you can follow me on uh blue sky if you want. I am on blue sky at Matthew.flux dot community. Um, but like I let me just just wrap the the kind of the story there, the f the final story that I was saying. So so Romney, so they weren't doing these massive investments in media. They were doing some. Um, and so basically Trump came along um and after he you know won by giving the base what they wanted and talking to them in their own language, um the the Republican consultant class who had been kind of fuddy duddy, you know, sort of John McCain, Mitt Romney, like that was who they wanted the campaigns, presidential campaigns to be. Um, and you know, that's not what the base wanted. And and so and Trump, he fired all of these people. Like whenever Trump started, not because they thought that Trump was a bad guy necessarily. Some of them did. I think some of them were sincere and not liking him, but a lot of them they did it because he fired them and he wouldn't hire them again. That was why. And so basically, Trump he cut all the dead weight of the consultant class, the Republican consultant class. Um, and then he brought in new blood, and people, you know, and again, like they did some of them did stupid things and uh illegal things, but you know what? A lot of them did some innovative stuff. Um, and so that's that might be ultimately what's gonna have to happen is that you know, someone like uh Zorim Mamdani or AOC uh she is gonna have to come in and be like, okay, you guys are all fired. You're never gonna work in this town again. It's over. Get the f out. Um, I think that that's probably the the the the the quickest way for for these people for the democratic dead weight to wait a minute.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:31

Are you saying that market forces should apply to this sector of the economy that consultants who refuse to deliver and fail consistently should be held accountable for their failures?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:44

That's the one area of of dog eat dog capitalism that the Democrats don't do. Yes. They they love loser consultants and failed campaign strategists.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:54

That way they do parallel the legacy media because the people who've been wrong about everything for 20 years are still out there and still fully employed and still telling us, Democrats, how we should move to the center because that's where that's where salvation lies.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:08

Mr. Sheffield thank you for coming on. I really do appreciate it. I know your time is valuable, and everyone who listens to this should seek you out and find out what a good guy you are. You're a good egg. And like I said, you speak with authority about an issue that a lot of us are opaque to a lot of us because we weren't part of that universe, but you come over to the side of all that is good and right. And for that, you are a rare creature, sir. And we do appreciate you. So say goodbye to the nice people now.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

All right. Well, thanks for having me. This has uh been good. And uh yeah, hopefully if people like the discussion, they might like the book. So we'll see. All right. Oh, and I yeah, we should uh I'll I'll put the link to the time when you were on my podcast. Oh, fair enough. We can uh you we'll put that you should put that in your show notes so people can check that one out. Or I intervene. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:00

Hello, sir.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:01

Feel free to write to both of us at prolef podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from you. Be aware that if you write to us at any of our addresses, we reserve the right to read your email or U.S. Postal Service Go Postal Unions letter on the air, unless you say otherwise. And thank you for supporting our show at patreon.com forward slash pro left pod.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:23

And if you can, please share our show on social media because if you love this podcast, maybe someone else will love it too. So thank you for doing that for us.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

Hey Driftglass, how are the Internet Kitties doing this week?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:33

Well, Blue Gal, the Internet Kitties think the Odyssey could have been just a little louder because there were still several scenes where audiences could distinguish individual words of dialogue.