070: The Journey of the Stones | Fr. Paul Mark Schwan (Part 2)

In the second half of my interview with Father Paul Mark Swan, Abbot of the Abbey of New Clairvaux, we find out about the journey of a medieval Spanish monastery, brought to San Francisco by William Randolph Hearst, and later reassembled in Vina, California. Fr. Paul describes the meticulous process of restoring the Romanesque-Gothic church, as well as the architectural experts and stonemasons who made it possible. We also hear about the monastery's successful venture into the California wine industry and how you can visit and appreciate this unique California location. 

00:00 Introduction and Recap
01:25 The Journey of the Stones
03:20 Restoration Efforts and Challenges
09:35 Rebuilding the Church
23:09 The Winery and Self-Support
28:40 Visiting the Monastery
32:40 Conclusion and Support

The Abbey of New Clairvaux's Website

Transcript

Damian Bacich 0:00

I'm Damian Basich, the host of the California Frontier podcast. In part one of my interview with Father Paul Mark Swan, the abbot of the Monastery of New Clairvaux, we left off where he was explaining how William Randolph Hearst, the famous newspaper magnate of the early 20th century, Had brought a medieval monastery, stone by stone, to San Francisco's Golden Gate Park. And the difficulties he encountered because of the Great Depression. So we're gonna pick up with the story of this stone church. sitting in Golden Gate Park and how it made its way to the Abbey of New Clairvaux in Vina, California. We're going to learn how it was rebuilt as a Romanesque slash Gothic church and then later how the um, Abbey also entered into the California wine industry. Think you're going to enjoy it? So without further ado, let's get back to my interview with Abbott, Paul Mark Swann of New Clairvaux.

1:21

Thanks for watching.

Damian Bacich 1:25

So the city actually had plans

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 1:27

city had

Damian Bacich 1:28

of its own.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 1:30

Um, well, unfortunately, there were several fires and some of these warehouses burnt down and the stones were in these warehouses and it just became a mess. Uh, the way it was dismantled and numbered. All that got lost and so the city just took these stones and really put them in piles there in Golden Gate Park where they sat for some, for several decades and kids would play on them and um, some of them the, the park itself. began to utilize for different places in the park. The most notable place is the Japanese tea gardens. They have chapter house stones as part of the landscaping there.

Damian Bacich 2:21

To this

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 2:22

To this day,

Damian Bacich 2:23

I didn't know

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 2:24

And then there's some rose gardens, as well, that use some of the stones, um, again, as landscaping, um, to landscape the area of the rose garden. Some very beautiful stones from the chapter house.

Damian Bacich 2:42

Yeah, I remember hearing, uh, I lived in San Francisco. you know, in the 80s and 90s. And I remember hearing about the stones there in Golden Gate Park. And I remember thinking, holy cow, that's, that's incredible. But I never actually saw any of them. Well, I have been to the Rose Garden, to Japanese Tea Gardens, but I wasn't aware that, that those stones were there. That's interesting.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 3:09

yeah. So, at any rate, uh, it was apparent the city would never be able to do anything with these stones. And then, okay, when we were founded in 1955, one of the founding groups, he was a young monk, uh, age 21, um, he and another monk came out two months after the original group arrived, and they flew out. And the founding superior met them at the San Francisco airport, and says, before we drive up to Vina I'm going to take you to Golden Gate Park, and I'm going to show you stones that once belonged to us in Spain in the 12th century. And this young monk, who's still living, he's 91 years old, Father Thomas Davis. He saw the stones, he had just completed a course on Cistercian architecture in history at the Motherhouse of Gethsemane, and so he knew the value of these stones, and it was his vision, his desire, whatever it was, I don't think he said anything out loud, but he thought to himself, someday, one We have to get these stones to Vina, restore them, and return this chapter house to its pristine condition, and make it a part of who we are at Vina. Long story short, he kept an eye on these stones, and they were greatly, um, A lot of people in San Francisco, surprisingly, had a lot of interest and devotion to these stones in their own right. You know, it's interesting, um, because some of them knew something about the story. Of their sacred purpose, at least originally. But at any rate, in, uh, 1992, uh, we just finally decided to do something about it. And so Father Thomas, uh, as Abbot, he was, he was predecessor as Abbot here. Um, goes down to the city of San Francisco, and the DeYoung Museum is involved, and Golden Gate Park is involved, and makes this plea, uh, for these stones. And, um, a long story short, two years later, um, going through due process, which the city had to follow, the stones were awarded to us. And so in 1994, 19 truckloads, of stone, big, you know, these big, these big freight trucks that you see on the, you know, those kinds of trucks, uh, delivered 19 loads of stone. And so then we had to begin raising money because every stone had to be, um, um, had to be measured and tested, uh, um, you know, for its strength and its ability to, um, continue to function as, um,

Damian Bacich 6:30

Oh,

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 6:30

were damaged, you know, these stones were damaged.

Damian Bacich 6:34

Now did you have to, or did the monastery have to pay the city for the stones or for transporting them or did

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 6:41

No, uh, the city awarded, well, the city had to offer the stones to three different entities to sell. No entity was interested in purchasing the stones. So then, by law, they had the right to award the stones. So, they gave them to us. Basically said, good luck. You can have these stones. We did have to, well, we had to load them ourselves, but, uh, the, the trucking company, a local trucking company, um, was making, you know, um, trips down to San Francisco. In coming back with empty trucks. And they said, you know, we'll do this free because, you know, we've got to load up our trucks and make it worthwhile.

Damian Bacich 7:39

That's amazing.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 7:40

So it was a donation in kind in that sense.

Damian Bacich 7:44

that's incredible. Do you have any idea, off the top of your head, how much one of these individual stones might weigh?

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 7:53

Uh, yeah, yeah. We've talked about that before. Of course it depends. You know, some of them are larger, some of them are smaller. I would say the average size certainly is several hundred pounds. You know, somewhere around, uh, around 200 pounds. I mean, they're heavy.

Damian Bacich 8:12

So we're talking tons.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 8:15

Yes. We, we, we are, and we still have, um, kind of a, a, a barn barn full of, of stones, unused stones because, um, Hearst, um, brought a lot of stone, not just the chapter house stones, but other stones from other parts of the monastery, uh, over, so we were able to use some of the other stone, as, you know, as, um, to, to re carve where we needed, um, missing. Um, or damaged, uh, carved chapter house stones. So approximately 35 percent of the, the, the stones you see in, in, in the current, um, church, we turned it into our church, are original. And another 35 percent are carved from, from stone, that stone, from other parts of that monastery that could not be used for any other purpose. Uh, here, you know, so about 70 percent of the stone is medieval and comes from the monastery. Another 30 percent would come from a U. S., a Texas quarry of limestone. Um, you know, so about 30 percent of it is American. Yeah. You know?

Damian Bacich 9:35

So you rebuilt, you used those stones to, to build or to rebuild, I'm not sure, maybe you can tell us, the church that you actually use now at the monastery.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 9:50

Yes. Um, so yeah, it took us two years. to undergo this, uh, study that included engineering studies on the stones. And because every stone had to be measured in every dimension, and they had to be put into a computer program. And this, these computer programs had just been developed. This is, you know, 1994. Um, and the, it's the computer that put everything together. for us and said, this stone goes here. This stone goes there. Um, had that, I mean, we would have been able to still restore the, the chapter house, but it would take that many more years and that many more millions of dollars without the computer program. So I, you know, I'm kind of, you know, I'm all for, you know, high tech, you know, I have to say it's, it's, it's, it's helpful and I suppose it has its downside, but at any rate, um, so that took a good two years. And then it took another eight years to repair or re carve all the necessary stones we needed. Um, and that was a stonemason from Stuttgart, Germany. that did that work, and it took him eight years. So in 2003, we were finally able to break ground and begin construction. Um, and in 15 years later, we finally finished the project and dedicated it. So it took us really from 1992 to 2018, this whole process, it took us 26 years.

Damian Bacich 11:49

So that's really recent. I didn't realize that, that, that, uh, that the, the whole church had been finished just in the last few years.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 11:59

Yeah. I mean, our work was progressing on it, you know? So there was something since 2003, but for a number of years it just stood as kind of, um. A hollow, empty shell. Um, because of course, obviously we have to meet earthquake codes. So there's a lot of concrete and steel. Uh, you don't know that when you look at the medieval part. It's just all stone. But in actual fact, there's steel and concrete behind those walls and up in the ceiling, you know, to It's designed for 9. 2.

Damian Bacich 12:37

Wow.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 12:38

had, uh, MIT came in. It cost an arm and a leg, but they came in, uh, for earthquake code stuff. Because this is all stone, right? As you know, you were asking how heavy each of these stones is. So every stone that you see in that church, uh, you don't see it, but um, in the hidden spaces up in the roof, every stone is hooked to a steel strap, hooked to steel girders. up in the attic. So in the event that an earthquake like that, that size, which we hope we never have to experience, but um, uh, that, that church house is going to still stand. Those stones are just going to just shake a little. It's a solid building to say the least, you know, but historically it from 18, uh, 1190. 1190 to 1215 to complete the chapter house. It took him 25 years in the medieval era to do

Damian Bacich 13:51

you have, you have the, the story of the original monastery itself as well. So you know the backstory to that edifice.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 14:03

Yes. Oh yeah. Yeah. We have that, um, we've done a lot of research. And in fact, uh, the gentleman that served as a consultant on the restoration of this project from Spain, he had done his master thesis in architectural history on this chapter house of Ovila, even though It did, it was already here in the U. S. at the time, and this gentleman was a state employee of Spain who oversaw historical preservation and restoration of historical monuments in Spain. So he was just a godsend to have us on this project because he knew so much about the project.

Damian Bacich 14:57

How did you find him?

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 14:58

Uh, he found us

Damian Bacich 15:00

Oh, really?

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 15:01

interested in these stones. His wife was a native of San Francisco, so he would always visit these stones. And, uh, so he knew the story and then he found out this Sterian monastery, um, had received them and he was just ecstatic. And so he offered his services free to be a consultant, and he came in very, very helpful. Now, having said that, that was, um, Dr. Jose. Miguel, um, Caceres Marino. Okay, but meanwhile here in San Francisco another doctor, Dr. Margaret Burke, had done a lot of research and study on the stones, so she was very involved as well. You know, both of these never saw the completion of this chapter house, which was, yeah, they both died before see it, which was an unfortunate, but, um, anyway, um, that's the mystery of, you know, I think when we, it took us all these years and it brought us back into the mindset of medieval times and how construction was, because not that much has changed other than the tools used are power operated, you know, hydraulic operated. But it's the same tools, and it took the same amount of time. You know, it was painstaking, you know, and as the stonemasons put things together, they discovered things that the computer could not have anticipated. And they had to go back to the drawing board more than once, saying, wait a minute, these stones aren't, you know, moving in the right direction we thought they would be moving, um, kind of thing. And, you know, And there's a second stonemason who is also from Stuttgart in Germany, because Americans just don't study stonemasonry like they do in Europe, because we don't have that many stone buildings. But, uh, at any rate, uh, In a sense, we corrected things that in the late 12th century, early 13th century, their approach to engineering was different or they made mistakes and they had to rectify it.

Damian Bacich 17:33

Okay.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 17:34

he said, well, don't call What they did mistakes, you know, you know, they were engineers too. And, um, but meanwhile, um, we are going to, um, adjust this. Maybe that's a, it's a euphemism for correcting, but we're going to adjust, um, some of the, the rib vaulting, for example, helter skelter back, um, 800 some years ago. So, um, we adjusted that. So today they, they're perfect, um, harmony and balance, asymmetry, all six, uh, gothic bays. And that's another thing, uh, the construction, it's clearly, they began with a Romanesque style, and by the time they finished, they were an early gothic. So it's just fascinating, this, this building we have, because it, it it shows that you can see it, if you're an architectural historian or et cetera. Yeah.

Damian Bacich 18:35

can you tell us a little bit about how, uh, Romanesque might be distinguished from the Gothic? And can you see that in the church?

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 18:43

yeah, you know, well, Romanesque, of course, it comes from the Roman, so it was the style they preferred to build within Rome, and this goes back, you know, several thousand years, uh, but it had rounded arches. Very heavy walls and very little window space, because these walls had to support all this either brick or stone or marble, so very heavy, thick walls with, as I said, very little window space. Well, it's the Moors that actually today architectural historians realize, uh, invented, or whatever the word might be, uh, um, what we call Gothic architecture. And, but it caught on, uh, quickly in, in northern Europe, very fast, because you could build tall buildings with very, um, thin walls, with lots of window space by the use of flying buttresses. Where you put the weight out, uh, up or out, and, um, which a Romanesque structure couldn't and did not do. And so, you know, of course, one of the most famous examples is just the, the recent restoration of, um, Notre Dame in Paris, of, of, uh, you know, kind of mid Gothic building. Lots of light, lots of window space, you know, and soaring very, very high. So when they started construction, um, with this, you know, they were using Romanesque, and someone said, you know, they're, they've developed this new architectural style, why don't we try that? And so they just moved into it. So you've got a, if you, a blend or a marriage between two different architectural styles in our, um, Our humble little church here, out here on the plains of Vina, you know, so it's fascinating, you know.

Damian Bacich 20:54

you have plans for those other stones that, that are, that you have stored right now?

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 21:01

Uh, yes and no. Um, some of the stone we were able to incorporate in some of the landscaping And in some other places, you know, um, in, in the, in the buildings, but, uh, a lot of the, um, no, you know, it's, it's, you know, but, you know, there's still a value, you know, and we're still going to, you know, they're all stored in a brandy barn and eventually if we can get things worked out, you know, we'd probably have a better walking tour. And, um, these would be included in part of that walking tour. Um, so people can see these stones today just as they are in their kind of unrestored state. You know, but like I say, we have two barns full of these stones. Yeah.

Damian Bacich 21:55

It's, it's pretty impressive because you also get a sense of, of their, their weight and their, their size. It's just to see them there. You know, it's amazing to think about the continuity of the place you're in from. The order itself, stretching back centuries, and then this monastery from the 12th century that somehow winds up in California at, uh, another monastery of the same order. Uh, it's, and, and through these important historical figures, it's, it's really amazing. And I'm having grown up in California. I, I didn't know about the, the monastery most of my life. I only recently learned about it maybe a decade or so ago, which is, um, which is funny. Um, but I also know that, uh, You are a center for, uh, spiritual growth and pilgrimage. And, but you also, as you mentioned, you have a winery. Can you talk a little bit about your winery and, and, um, and what you do in that regard?

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 23:14

Yes, I'd be happy to do that. Of course, as I said earlier, you know, one tenet of the rule of St. Benedict is self support. And so that's very important, um, that we support ourselves by the labor of our hands. And, um, historically, when we first came, we had a dairy herd, and there were a few prune orchards. You know, but, uh, very soon on, the monks, you know, did not want to continue with the dairy herd, you know, because, um, you know, the cows basically control your life, you know, you do not control the life of the cows. So, They sold the dairy herd in 1963, and they began to expand, not only in prune orchards, but also walnut orchards, which we still have to this day, and which continue to be, um, main sources of income for us. But we always knew about the history of the vineyards and the grape wine industry here. And so it was, um, approximately maybe 30 years ago, um, the gentleman that has been our contractor for our building projects does have a winery. that his family's had for five generations over near Napa. And he said, I've always wanted to, you know, plant some vines here in Vina and see what happens and see if maybe, maybe we could just prove that Leland Stanford really wasn't a failure or that, you know, whatever happened, that we could grow some good wines. And so, uh, the abbot at the time, Father Thomas Davis, who had the vision with these stones, um, said, well, I'm interested too. Let's, let's work something out. Uh, so we developed a partnership and in, in the year 2000, we planted vines. His property is about three, um, three miles east of here, um, and slightly different terrain. as they call it in the French or the wine industry. Um, but at any rate, um, so we started this partnership and, and then, uh, his daughter, Amy Sinceri, um, said, you know, I'm interested in working on this project. And, um, so she went off to school. got a degree in oenology, I think it's called at UC Davis. Um, anyway, it's winemaking and grape growing. And, um, and so she came on board. And so, um, 25 years later, um, not only are we producing, um, award winning wines, you know, but last year even we, we got named, uh, California Winery of the Year, partly because, uh, at the state fair, oh, two years ago, we won one golden bear for one of our wines. Last year we won three golden bears. So it's almost, you know, golden bears are like winning the Oscars, you know, it's pretty, it's a, it's a very big deal. At any rate, um, for three of our wines. So, um, anyway, we've proven, um, that we can grow not only good wines, but high quality wines and our customer base has proven they like our wines. They keep coming back and the huge wine club, you know, and we've opened a tasting room up in Redding, um, a year ago that has gone far surpassed what our, um, expectations were for the first year, you know, um, so it's proven to be very, very popular. So

Damian Bacich 27:19

Well, I can vouch for it. I've had some of your wines and they are excellent just from a non wine connoisseur standpoint, but they are for my money. They're they're excellent wines.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 27:32

Well, thank you. Thank you. And so that has become a source of income as well, obviously, um, for us. And, and a lot of our manual labor is now, um, Uh, focused on the vineyard and in the winery, you know, for self support, you know, so when the monks go out to, to work, um, that will be one of their assignments, either the vineyard, you know, whatever, you know, pruning, pruning or thinning or, Plus, you know, harvest time, we're all out there cutting grapes by hand. Or we help with the bottling and, um, you know, some of the processing of the wine during the crush season, you know, so, um, yeah, so it's, it's turned out to be very, very successful, you know,

Damian Bacich 28:27

so I know that you have a as a monk, you have a schedule that's, that's very regulated. So I don't want to keep you longer than, than you're than you're able to. But just very quickly, people can visit the winery, can visit the monastery. Can you tell us a little bit about that and, and do you often get visitors?

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 28:51

Oh, yes Yeah, again another aspect of our way of life Dr. Bosich is Hospitality and we have what we call a guest house Some places might call it a bed and breakfast But it's similar. But it's a place, uh, that's open to anyone who wants to come for whatever reason, a retreat, um, or just some time away. Um, they're able to share in the prayer life of the monks if they want to. If they don't want to, they can just, um, spend time in the retreat house, the guest house, uh, walking through the orchards, being in nature. You know. Uh, we provide, um, meals that's part of the deal. Um, all three meals of the day. Um, plus, um, the, the winery is, is open every day of the, the week. And, uh, yeah, we receive, i, I, well, we were receiving and I think it's about the same, about 38,000 visitors. a year, uh, come to the monastery. Generally, those are wine customers, but, um, a number, a number of them come and stay at our guest house, uh, for a retreat experience, you know, or just, um, to relax, whatever. Or they may just come from the day, uh, to either purchase wine, or many people now know about the church, the medieval church, and they come to see that, so it's, the place has become a, what we call a destination, you know, um, and you said earlier, you know, you were born and raised here in California, never knew about the monastery until maybe a decade ago. And in one sense, that has always been a characteristic of who we are too. We've always kept a low profile, just by the nature of our contemplative life and a degree of withdrawal or separation, um, from the world's busy, hectic activities. Um, but on the other hand, it sounds like an oxymoron, but, um, perhaps, but we've always wanted, we're a place of welcome hospitality, of receiving, um, all kinds of people. You know, so, um, so yeah, the, the, anyone is, is, is, is very welcome to come for, for, you know, you know, um, yeah, we'd love to have them come.

Damian Bacich 31:28

Well, Father Paul, I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us about this. the monastery, about its history, about your, uh, work, rebuilding the chapel and the winery. I think it's a very unique place and it's, we're very fortunate to have such a place here in California that really anybody can visit. And like I said, not only is it a place of, pilgrimage, of peace, but it's also a place of a remarkable continuity of, of over a thousand years. So, so I think everybody who is interested should take advantage of the possibility of, of visiting this wonderful place. And even if you can't Buy some of the, the new Clairvaux wines because they're, they're wonderful. So thank you very much, Father Paul.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 32:24

You're very welcome, uh, Dr. Bassett, it's been a great pleasure to spend some time with you and sharing about the history of the, the monastery, it's, et cetera, and its place in California and who we are as well. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you so much.

Damian Bacich 32:39

Thank you.

Fr. Paul Mark Schwan 32:40

Okay.

32:49

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