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The LFG Show
How True Call CEO Leo Danconia is Bringing Transparency to Pay Per Call 📞
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Welcome to another exciting episode of The LFG Show with your host, David Stodolak! 🎙️ This week, we're diving deep into the inspiring journey of a true industry trailblazer. When Leonardo Danconia swapped the driver's seat for a CEO chair, he didn't just change lanes; he built a new highway. 🚗➡️🏢 His meteoric rise from high school dropout to marketing titan and founder of True Call is not just a tale of triumph; it's a playbook for reinventing the pay-per-call industry. 📞💼
Join us as we dissect Leonardo's story, discovering the tenacity and work ethic required to redefine success and tackle the insidious issue of call fraud head-on. 🕵️♂️💪 It's not every day you hear about the resilience it takes to climb the industry ladder, especially from the perspective of someone as esteemed as the CEO of **NVIDIA**. This episode delves into the values that bolster success, from personal accountability to the power of humility and continuous learning. 📚✨
We also navigate the choppy waters of legal lead generation, emphasizing the unparalleled importance of trust and verification in business—a conversation brimming with enlightenment for businesses seeking to shore up their integrity and manage risks effectively. ⚖️🔍
Wrapping things up, we cast a light on the potential of Leonardo's True Call in refining call tracking and compliance measures. It's a deep dive into how innovation, partnership, and strategic foresight create unparalleled value for businesses aiming to stay afloat in the relentless tide of the marketing world.
🌊🚀 Whether it's overcoming adversity, harnessing emerging tech, or championing entrepreneurial spirit, this episode is a catalyst for change and a treasure trove of insights for the modern business maverick. 🏆💡
Timestamps:
0:11
Revolutionizing the Paper Call Industry
Resilience, Work Ethic, and Success
Maximizing Leverage for Business Growth
Navigating Legal Marketing Challenges
Trust and Accountability in Business
Business Integrity and Risk Management
Importance of Truecall in Call Tracking
Enhancing Pay-Per-Call Compliance Measures
Creating Value for Business Success
LFG fam. We just shot a fucking banger right now. I can't wait till you hear this shit. It's like next level. No one's talking about this. Shout out to our sponsors, because without them, this shit wouldn't be possible. Shout out to Ringba. Shout out to Adam Young the paper call revolution. There's big, big money in paper call. Whether you're someone who's a novice looking to get into it, whether you're someone who's already doing it, putting up big numbers, let's fucking do this. Guys. Get the fucking book on Amazon. We're going to drop a link here. Take your shit to the next level. Let's fucking go.
Speaker 1Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the LFG Show. Man, we're going nonstop here. We got a good friend of mine. I've known this guy for a long time, done a good amount of business with him Leo D'Anconia. He is the CEO of Inbounds right and he's also the founder and CEO of a brand new company that's going to really revolutionize the industry True call right. Yeah, man.
Speaker 1So I'm excited to have you on the show, because at the end of the show we talk to next level people doing next level things. I think you're a next level person. You think differently, you move differently right, and now you have a product right now that's going to really change the industry and create a lot of value for people, and we'll go deep into that absolutely, and before we go that shout out to our sponsor, ringba adam young the paper call revolution phenomenal book. One thing in the book that he talks about is, uh, paper called fraud, call fraud. Right, and I think your, your product, is a perfect solution for that. So we're going to talk about that. But before we talk about it, leo, our industry is freaking crazy. A lot of moving parts. How'd you get into the industry?
Speaker 2Yeah, man, I I had an interesting background. I. I left school at like 17. Yeah, I didn't go to college and I always had this mentality that things would work out, but I realized along the way that nobody was going to hand it to me. That was probably the biggest lesson in life that really changed my trajectory, which is just like nobody's coming to save you. I got to do everything myself and I got to figure out how to make it happen, and so I started just entering the workforce and grinding and trying to figure out how to learn. I went to YouTube university right, and I was up studying it's a great university if you apply it right?
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly, and you know we're. We're so lucky in this day and age to have those kinds of tools available, right, it's just so much free content where you can learn so much, a lot of stuff to sift through, and not everything makes sense, so it's not necessarily like a great curriculum that's lined out for you, but all the same, it's, uh, a very powerful tool and I think maybe when I was 21 I was I was actually doing uber right, I just was trying to make.
Speaker 1This is in california.
Speaker 2Yeah, this is in california, right yeah, yeah, and I was literally just trying to eat and just pay my bills. Uh, I had left my nine to five.
Speaker 2I just was kind of sick of you know, that kind of culture is very corporate culture and that works for some people and that's all good. But at that specific job I was just I was unhappy. Yeah, I felt like there was more in my life and I wanted to explore that, but I was met with the reality that it's not easy, right. And so I was driving uber to, you know, put some food on the table and I happened to fall into like a gig job you know, task rabbit, ever heard of that? Anyway, it's just when you're kind of doing random tasks that people pay you for. You can be moving a couch or installing furniture or whatever it is and stumbled across an assistant job it was just supposed to be for one day for a guy who actually ended up owning a marketing company. Wow.
Speaker 2And I just came in with the attitude of like I don't know what this opportunity is like. The guy hired me for a day. I'm just going to do my best today. That's all I can do is just I'll stay late, I'll ask for whatever they need and I'll just do whatever it takes. And so I showed up and I put in the work and I got invited back the next day and the next day and all of a sudden, within a few weeks, he's like, why don't you just come work full time? And so I started working for him, learning about marketing, learning about the industry, and within eight months I worked my ass off so hard that I became an executive of that company.
Speaker 2And how old were you at the time? I was like 22. Wow yeah, and that was really my first start in the industry, where I was like you know, I don't know what I want to do, but I'm obviously good at this and so I'm just going to go hard. And you know, I have great work ethics. So I just applied that and obviously it opened some doors for me, and you know, from there I decided, hey, this is great and I like this. The owner at the time, though, wanted to pivot the company to a different direction. This was a time when kind of mortgage refi was big campaign or kind of area what year was?
Speaker 2this around Like nine, like 18. Okay, it was like 18. It was doing really well, but then, with what happened with the mortgage industry, a lot of the lenders stopped buying, you know, leads, or I think their biggest client shut down and so the owner wanted to pivot into another field and he was an entrepreneur and I appreciated that. But I couldn't help but think that there's still such a great opportunity in lead gen and marketing and obviously I learned a lot about it. So I decided to just start my own company. I had a thousand bucks two thousand bucks probably in my bank account and I was like I I'm just going to go for it. So, with no prior experience as an entrepreneur, no pun of business, I just absolutely went for it. I think I had some crypto that I was gunning for. I was like this crypto is going to go to the moon and I'm going to be fine and you know, if this business doesn't work, I'll have crypto. Well, I don't have to tell you how that story ended, but essentially it was just myself trying to rub together two little matchsticks to make a business and started with just some existing people I had met and trying to put two and two together. I started with just straight out, you know, brokering calls, because that's just what I knew. And then, as that grew, I was like, wow, there's something really here. You know, there's a lot of opportunity here.
Speaker 2And I literally just grinded my ass off for about a year until I can figure out how to make enough money to kind of sustain myself without a job. And you know, I sacrificed a lot of things during this time. I didn't go to parties, I didn't hang out with really anybody, I just sat on my computer all day, I was just locked, I was just dialed in and uh, that's when I started getting some momentum and I started learning a lot more. Uh, I, I always continued my education.
Speaker 2I felt like, you know, not going to college was a blessing, but there were cons to that too, cause I was missing things right in my, uh, kind of my toolkit right, like I didn't know about business, I didn't know about taxes, I didn't know about EINs, corporate structure, ebitda, p&ls, balance sheet, all that type of stuff. I had to teach myself everything, and so that was really successful for me as I continued to go forward. It was just constantly learning and that was really the start. That was like the LFG moment I remember you know, making 10 grand in a month. I was like this is freaking amazing. I did this all myself.
Speaker 1And 10 grand is like that mark.
Speaker 2Once you hit that, it's so funny. Wow, there's something here, you know, and that was such an aha moment and I remember telling my buddy who I went to high school with I'm like I made this money and he's like that's amazing, like how are you doing this?
Speaker 3And.
Speaker 2I'm like I have no idea, but I'm making it happen. And you know I persevered and there was ups and downs, but just throughout this whole time constantly learning, going to trade shows, networking, creating relationships, creating friends, you know, trying to keep a good reputation and doing right by people, I think has really led me to where I am now. And, um, you know, I I think that at the end of the day, it was I'm not the smartest guy, I'm not the most. You know whatever I don't, I don't know everything, Right, but I worked really fucking hard and I think that's what really set things apart. And I also didn't pretend like I knew everything. I knew where I was lacking, Right. I knew where I didn't understand things. Instead of shying away from those things, I attacked them. I was like let's learn more about that, Right. That's something I don't understand or that makes me uncomfortable. That means I need more of it, not less of it.
Speaker 1Yeah, man, that's a great story and I'm glad you shared that and you know I would never, I assume you graduated college and stuff like that and I and the fact that I've always had this thought in Israel after, I think, everyone graduates high school they're they're, they're going through the military right.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I read this book uh, what's it called? Startup nation and it talks about why. Why is Israel so successful and powerful, considering it's such a small percentage of the world population but there's so many other percentage of people. On the NASDAQ, half the billionaires in the world are Israeli or Jewish right. So it's just an amazing story. But I've always had that thought. Maybe this system in America is kind of flawed and they're like why do we go straight from high school into college and have to determine what we're going to do for the career determine what we're going to do for the career Like, do we need a year or two gap? I thought about doing that with my kids. Sure, I think that that real life experience is very important. I wanted to ask you did you ever feel like a stigma, not grad, do you feel like? Or did that give you like a chip on your shoulder Like I'm going to fucking do this regardless?
Speaker 2Yeah, man, I think that at think, I think pain and suffering really mold people into greater things, right, like if you think, uh, hermosi says right, if you want great character, you can't wish for an easy life.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know, and I I really believe that's true, because there was a time when I was sitting 3 am, uh, in my car. I just got done ubering for the night on a saturday night. Okay, at 3 am in my car, I just got done Ubering for the night on a Saturday night at 3 am, just taking some people who were very drunk home, and I was just sitting in the car listening to Slipknot and I was like this cannot be my life, I cannot do this, I will not stand for this. There has to be more Right, and I was just so sick and tired of being sick and tired that I just decided I am going to do everything in my power to change this, because no one's coming to save me and I think that's what made me what I am today, and I never forget that. I never forget where I came from.
Speaker 1And I think that's a commonality among anyone that's been successful anyone ever had on this show that you have to have that feeling. What the hell am I doing in my life? I'm worth more right. I can give a lot more to the world, to myself, and once you have that moment that comes from pain and suffering, that's the only way to do it right.
Resilience, Work Ethic, and Success
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. I think I saw something recently, some kind of speech, I think, CEO of NVIDIA, talking about how I wish for you to have pain and suffering. I wish upon you pain and suffering because that's going to build your character. You know, and I think that in a day you don't have to be the sharpest, you don't have to be the smartest, but having resilience and and a work ethic that rivals, you know, the top people in the world is is going to set you apart over talent.
Speaker 1Wow, that you. You made me think a lot with that, and I thought you were. You were big into philosophy, right? So that that was. That's kind of that tied in there. But I'm thinking about my daughter's 12. Sure, she's going to be high school, so then college. My son's going to turn five and have a new one. You don't want to see your kids suffer, right? No-transcript. If you don't have that, then I mean it's going to come one way or the other, right? It doesn't matter how you, how you, deal with it.
Speaker 2So thank you for talking about that, yeah absolutely, and I mean like we, we get on this show, we talk about the highlights, but, yeah, no one sees the other stuff. No one sees the other stuff and I think that it's just new levels, new devils. No, I like that. New levels, new devils, wow.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2You know, it's just uh, you get to, uh, everything's relative, right, so you. So you kind of come up and then you have different problems. But they could be bigger problems, right, or they're just there's a different nature to them, but they're still problems and no matter where you are right and the problems are going to be there, right. That's how you choose to be resilient, like some days I just I'm like damn, like I had a really bad day and I'm working, you know, 17, 18 hours a day sometimes and I'm exhausted, you know. But I know where I came from and I would much rather prefer that than you know not living up to my potential.
Speaker 1You control your destiny and I think, going back to the true call, probably you have control and that's what you need, and everyone wants to have control over life.
Speaker 2And I think, going back to the true call, probably you have control and that's that's what you need, and everyone wants to have control over life. So when you're, when you're working in the job, you hate it. You didn't have control, are you? They controlled try, but then there's really trying, right, there's. There's really a difference between wanting something and wanting it to your core so much that it consumes you, right, and I think that is the level that you have to get to to really make change and pull yourself out. You know, obviously there's different levels to where people start right. Some people, you could say, had a better head start or whatever, which may or may not be true. But no matter where you are, if you're trying to get to the next level on your own, you kind of have to really want it, not just say you want it, but want it to the fiber of your being.
Speaker 1And I'll say one thing too. What impressed me about what you said and I find that with a lot of people, especially in my circle, that are successful the humility To me I think a lot of people that know you say you're super, super smart and the fact to hear you say, yeah, I'm not the smartest guy and that's great to hear because you know you can get better and you always keep learning, you keep reading, you're doing all these things to better yourself. So I think that's another commonality about really successful we. We know we're not the you gotta know you're not the best. There's always someone better, there's always some evolution, something that can take you out of the game.
Speaker 2So you got to always be ahead of the curve absolutely, and I, and nothing in this life stays the same for me, right, we're either evolving or we're regressing, right, and so I. For me, you know, I good, I feel happy when I'm constantly evolving. Yeah, you know, I'm constantly learning and and it's fun, it's challenging, right, like I'm the type of person to figure something out and then kind of get bored of it because I'm like this doesn't, maybe, this is good, great, like it's a good thing that's productive and helps people. But for me, mentally, I'm like I got to challenge myself, right, if I get used to something that's not fun, that's not exciting for me, you know. So a lot of it too, is just, you know, I feel like life is like a life is a video game, and if you beat one level, you don't want to keep playing that level all the time.
Speaker 1I love that, that's great that new levels, new devils was freaking. You got me thinking it's so freaking true, you're really right about it. Is there an example of your personal life where maybe you got to this other level that you were like so excited where you did I don't know, maybe it was something dumb that you're like why the hell did I do it? You wouldn't do again, that you would share.
Speaker 2Yeah, oh would I did, but I wouldn't do again.
Speaker 1Yeah, or you know, or maybe you learned from like well, you know, I feel like we all do that, I don't know, especially in our industry.
Speaker 2Yeah, man, I mean, I could tell you about times where I was like, oh, it's a great idea, let's pour a hundred K into this untested campaign, just dump it, just go. And then I'm like why the hell did I do that? Right, like that taught me a little bit about risk management, right? I mentioned earlier that I had a kind of a foray into crypto trading, and you know, you know it's funny.
Speaker 1You gave me a ticket to a Bitcoin. It was a Bitcoin conference.
Speaker 2Yeah, three years ago when.
Speaker 1I was getting involved in it or whatever Right, and I don't know why you couldn't go and it was sold out. But like you couldn't go and it was sold out, but like you, hooked me up man, and when you said that, I remember that moment. Yeah.
Maximizing Leverage for Business Growth
Speaker 2Yeah, totally, and, and I lost everything in crypto and and well, it's actually, it's. It's actually a really funny story, because I made more money in crypto by doing nothing than I did by spending hours looking at a computer screen. Yeah, like, I actually made way more money by just literally doing nothing and that that taught me a really valuable lesson of like we talk it's very cliche like work smart, not hard, but like, just because you're doing something, you have to be very deliberate about what you're working on right, because, and what you're doing because, just because you're grinding this is something I think entrepreneurs sometimes get a little bit lost is, like, sure, you're working your ass off great, that's like step one but what are you working on right? Like, is the thing that you're working on smart? Is it a high leverage opportunity, or are you spinning your wheels to make, to grind out a little bit of profit or potentially lose?
Speaker 2Yeah, right, and then you know you can get into things like the sunk cost fallacy, which also correlates to your time. Right, you spend a lot of time into something and then you feel this obligation that you have to keep doing that thing, even though you really shouldn't. Right, but it's just because you sunk so much much time into it. You're like, damn, if I give up now, I'm a quitter, but that's not necessarily the smart thing to do, right? It's like picking the thing to work on and going at it with an edge is way more important than necessarily just hitting your head against the wall for the fact of saying I'm grinding, you know. So that was something I learned too is not just working your ass off, that's a given, but working your ass off on things that have the highest chance of success while mitigating risk, you know, is a big lesson I've learned and that's great.
Speaker 1I've. I've learned that through experience too. I read a book called 10x is easier than 2x. Yeah, I've really changed the way I look at things, right, I'm always someone that's always on the move. You know that I'm like doing a million things, but I had to analyze is this a 10X thing I'm working on, or is it 2X? And some of the stuff wasn't even 2X, some of the stuff was like 1.2X, like my time was more valuable than that, right? So when you start thinking along those lines, man, your business really starts to accelerate. You look into bigger opportunities because our time is limited, right? We only have so much time on the earth. Exactly, you got to focus on the things that are really really move the needle.
Speaker 2Yeah, a thousand percent. And and that's a big lesson too is is the concept of leverage right, you know? Uh, archimedes said if give me a lever long enough and a place to stand, and I'll move the earth, right, and that's so true. Right, you can choose to work on things that, in theory, sound good, but if you're trying to get the maximum impact for your time, you must choose those things that have the highest leverage, or you just might, if that's your goal, right? Obviously, people have their own passions and do whatever they want. That's great. But if you're trying to do something big, you're going to be in a better position. If you start with something that's a higher leverage opportunity. Yeah, right, so, um, but yeah, that that crypto story was crazy because, like when I I invested again in crypto when I wasn't focused on watching the ticker, you know, kind of go up and down every day and I just let it sit and I was like holy shit, I've made way more money than I ever, you know crazy.
Speaker 1They say sometimes the better action is to do nothing at all.
Speaker 2Right, that's one of those examples yeah absolutely, and it taught me patience as well, that's awesome.
Speaker 1So I know you're big into philosophy, right? Is there one philosophy book or philosopher that kind of made a big impact on your life? Do you recommend that the user or listeners of the LFG show listen to or learn more about? Who would that be or what book would that be?
Speaker 2Yeah, it's a great question. I don't necessarily have one particular one, because so many people have impacted the field in terms of philosophy and I've really essentially distilled down a lot of the things I've learned. You know, I kind of get snippets from here and there from people I look up to. You know, people like Alex from OZ and guys like that who are doing awesome things, and I kind of take little bits and pieces from everywhere and find what's real for me and I I would say not necessarily like hey, you got to check out this thing. I would more urge people to remember that things are only as good as they're useful to you, right, and you should never do something just because somebody has authority and expertise, because if that thing doesn't work for you, then it really doesn't matter and you should discard that, yeah Right, and you should focus on those things that actually have practical application and actually change your life for the better, and not do it just for the sake because somebody told you to do it. Right, you got to see it for yourself.
Speaker 1That's great advice, Especially nowadays with so much we hit, you hit, with so much information on every there's, there's Tik TOK, there's a Twitter or X, whatever you want to call it, everybody's an expert. Everyone's an expert now. So, you got to really analyze and especially your feed. Who are you subscribed to? Because you're going to get that information. It's going to impact you at a subconscious level, absolutely.
Speaker 3Age data there's only a few months left of this. A lot of different ways to monetize data. Data is a very broad term. There's a lot more money in it. You already spent the money. Let's just say it cost you $10 for a Medicare. You make a million dollars in sales. You really only made $100,000. And you might not get paid by your advertiser. What if I can get an extra $0.50, $1, $2, $3 per lead in perpetuity? What does that do to my marketing campaign? What does that do for the stress of the profits of my company? A percentage or two at those kind of numbers are huge as moving the needle. So for us, what I love about age data, the hard part's already been done. Now it's just the revenue left for your company. What would the extra $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 a week do for your business?
Speaker 1Absolutely All of our big partners are making hundreds of thousands, if not millions, a year with us. They're never going to have this gold rush again. Let's talk about your. You know what you've been doing. I mean, I know you through InBoundscom. Explain who they are, and then we'll talk about the evolution into Truecall.
Speaker 2So yeah, inboundscom is really the brainchild of myself and our partners, who kind of all had kind of separate companies right in the space, and we came together and we were like, hey guys, like why are we trying to do this kind of half-cocked and why don't we come together and try to create something a little bit bigger than the individual sum of our parts? That was really a genesis of inbounds. You know, my partners are amazing guys with even more experience than me in the industry, and that was really the idea. It's hey, let's do own and operated, let's create our own websites, let's get our own technology together, hire a dev team and essentially go from there. And that has been an amazing journey. We've grown it from absolutely nothing to doing a solid amount of top line every year and I think we have 45 employees now, which were the most employees I've ever had, and so it's been a rocket ride for sure.
Speaker 1And the bulk of what you do with the main focus is legal right and in balance.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely so. You know, for us, while we do do some insurance and we do do some home services, legal is where we just found a lot of blue ocean and we were able to kind of get in there a little bit earlier and try to find some kind of edge. And we have established a lot of good clients in the space, working with lawyers and attorneys etc. Which, you know, for some may not be their cup of tea but, you know, teach their own, and I think that the relationships that we have forged are awesome and will be sustainable long term.
Speaker 1And I think that's in our industry. Everyone's always trying to make money. There's a lot of money in the industry, but there's a lot of shiny object syndrome as well, which I'm sure, you see.
Speaker 1You go to these shows and like what's the next thing? And a lot right. I went to the Geek Out on Saturday Geek Out tour and there was a lot of anxiety, I think because there's a lot of shakeup going on in ACA. I'm sure you've seen there A lot of the shakeup going on. People, that's a billion dollar company that stopped buying leads, there's like federal investigations, there's like crazy stuff's going on. So people are nervous, they're looking for the next thing. But I think what you guys you narrowed in illegal is evergreen.
Speaker 1That's not going to go anywhere.
Speaker 2People get, I heard, and that's a great point because, like you just said, there's really like a finite amount of car accidents out there right For MBA and there's only a finite amount of qualified victims of a mass tort. And so, you know, while it has some evergreen nature, the the kind of the rub is that that low supply aspect which is kind of hard to penetrate, you know.
Speaker 1I want to say something. So I went to my first Mass Tours. Made Perfect. Have you ever been to MTMP?
Speaker 3Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1It was an amazing show and it blew my mind away. So we're doing some stuff in tour, not a huge amount, we'll have to grow into that. But anyway, the numbers that they're talking about and there weren't any flashy guys there I mean, these are lawyers that are putting up big numbers. They have the tort with Johnson and Johnson the talk about, but it's terrible. Yeah yeah, you see they're talking about. You know six to $10 billion settlements they're going after and it makes you think, no-transcript, just penetrate that. That, that, that industry. But you have actually been doing it for a long time, so you've had success and grown. You know eight figure's a great question.
Speaker 2I think that, as you kind of mentioned, you know, attorneys are maybe a little bit more cautious about who they work with. I think they have a lot on the line to risk, especially when it comes to— yeah, the reputation is important. You know, ethics is a massive aspect of everything an attorney does and you know if, given enough transgressions, they could potentially lose their license over. You know, bad marketing, right or not following marketing laws, and so really putting compliance first and putting an emphasis on, hey, we're doing things the right way, was really kind of the game changer, and but still took time, you know, to really get some trust established, and it's, it's still. You know, to really get some trust established, and it's, it's still, you know not, you know it's still kind of a challenge, but I think that was a kind of a game changer for us is just like, hey, let's get as compliant as possible, be as transparent as possible, and that would help, you know, grant more trust to what we were doing.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I can tell I mean, when I have people on the show, guests on the show, it's only guests I know are top-notch people. This is my reputation online too. I don't want to. You know, I feel like I built up my brand, my credibility, by being surrounded by good people, right?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1So I've worked with you guys in the past. We ran an MBA campaign for a couple years, sure.
Speaker 3It was pretty successful.
Speaker 1My call center was working with you to create the transition flow and just working with your team and seeing that you guys always honored you, always looked out for your client and in the beginning it wasn't.
Speaker 1There were some. It was a new campaign for us, so there were mistakes made on my side with the putting quality assurance, but we fixed it right and you worked with us through that and that was key. And I think that, guys, you talked a lot about communication and transparency, and that's a big issue with our industry is that everyone wants to sell leads right, but they don't always sell what they say they're going to sell. They sell like a bag of goods and then, at the end of the day, you're the one that's taking the risk because your name's on the line. These lawyers are taking a risk with a new lead vendor, right.
Speaker 2So they're going to be cautious, like you said. Yeah, a thousand percent. And some of these attorneys have just crazy levels of vetting that they will put you through. You know they're looking for any reason to say no, this isn't up to snuff.
Speaker 1Yeah, and when I was at the show I heard about, they're always with a bunch of attorneys they're talking about. I guess one guy was doing some unscrupulous stuff and he's like someone in the industry I don't know, I have no idea. It was people with decades and decades and like now he's done, like he can't even practice anymore. It's and that's a shame to you know, spend so much time doing something and then be done. But that that applies to our industry as well. You know, I I made, I narrowed in on solar in 2016, became top five in the industry in solar lead gen. We're still doing solar.
Speaker 2solar's changed a lot, obviously, but the point is that if you narrow on something, you do the right thing by the clients, the right thing will come back to you and some people lose sight of that Absolutely and and you know it's look like everything that we do is difficult, right, and I think that there is a line that just needs to be walked. But, like you said, in the long run, you know, if you, if you stay on the right side of that line, it will come back to you and pay dividends, yeah and you guys are shining proof of that.
Speaker 1So I want to transition a bit here into what you're doing right now, and this ties into paper call. Paper call, I think, is about to explode because of all these new changes going on with single opt-in and everything. I just interviewed Adam Young on the show from Rainbow. Yeah, great, great interview, tons of opportunity. But alongside anytime there's big money involved, there's going to be unscrupulous people looking to get over on people Right, and you were I don't know what the better, better word, but you were like you're a victim of that Right. So where your clients, in the sense? And because of that you created a solution. And I want to talk about my experience. I've been doing this for 26, since 2016. I there's something called a dumb tax in business. You do some dumb thing and then you pay Ignorance tax, ignorance tax, dumb tax right.
Speaker 2Absolutely, you pay it down over time. Yeah.
Speaker 1So back in 2018, 2019, I'd have some guys I trusted I'd buy leads from them. It turns out these leads weren't compliant. I had some issues. Tcpa had to get attorneys involved, cost me a lot of money, and one big one wound up costing me six figures 150 grand it cost me. Then, a year later, I had another one that was 60 grand. So all in all these dumb things the ignorance tax, dumb tax wound up costing my company me probably $300,000. Sure, which is for a lot of people listening, that's 300,000 a lot of money to throw out the damn window, right. So I learned I buttoned myself up. Knock on wood, we haven't had any issues in like three, four years. We buttoned ourselves up, right, have a compliance department, all this stuff, right that audits. You had a similar experience, but yours was way, way bigger. When I heard the number, like holy fuck, how did you make it through this? So let's talk about that whole situation.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, it's definitely burned in my memory and I'll just give you the full story. I mean, we were trying to augment our internal marketing efforts, right, which is not a bad thing to do. You know you can-.
Speaker 1That's how you scale.
Trust and Accountability in Business
Speaker 2Yeah, it's how you scale and you maybe scale quicker. And so, you know, we have some great relationships with clients and we were sending them our calls, which was fine. We were like, hey, you know, maybe there's some trusted partners who we respect and know in the space who would be able to send us some additional calls. It's a win-win, classic kind of setup. And so, you know, we were obviously cautious and we went into it like hey, like we want to make sure we're getting inbound phone calls right. That was the first thing, like let's make sure we're on the same page here. And we must've went through that like three or four times these are inbounds, for sure they're inbounds, like you know there's, you're not going to give us anything else. They got to be inbounds, et cetera.
Speaker 2And uh, this, this company swore up and down on their life that absolutely, these are totally inbound calls, don't worry about it. You know, you don't have to keep right. We almost were becoming annoying like want to make sure it was also through a referral. So we felt like there was some added trust there. But that was the issue, right, is that kind of blind trust without verification? And unfortunately, you know, while we started getting calls and they were great. We started getting some inbound calls and we're like, wow, the quality is great, like this is looking good. All of a sudden I get that phone call. You know, a dreaded call. Shut everything down immediately, right.
Speaker 1It was never a good time. It was the worst time of the day. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2It's on a Monday morning, you're just waking up, shut it all down, or it's Sunday, whatever. Yeah, and you know what had happened was, when we started to investigate it, you know, we were like what's going on here? You guys promised us inbound calls and they're like, yeah, it's totally like they. They were still kind of defending that these were inbound calls and at the end of the day, what happened was is that it was actually, in my opinion, a little bit worse than you know, as a kind of professional plaintiff or litigator or whatever. It was actually retired judge. Oh, um, you know, essentially got got a phone call that was an outbound call, right, and there's something in the legal space called solicitation, right, you're not allowed to solicit people for legal services unless they asked, you know, for information about your services. They kind of have to lead the way, similar to how the TCPA, you know you're supposed to consent to be contacted.
Speaker 2But there's this whole you know other very similar thing in the ethics codes called solicitation.
Speaker 2And he decided or he, you know, was getting solicited for, I guess, motor vehicle accident and he didn't just stop at like, hey, let's, you know, you guys are violation of TCPA, like I'm going to sue you.
Speaker 2No, he went all the way up to the end user, which was an attorney in this case, right, let's you know you guys are violation of TCPA, like I'm going to sue you. No, he went all the way up to the end user, which was an attorney in this case, right. He got the attorney to come to his house, right, unbeknownst to him, and cornered him and said hey, you're soliciting, I'm going to the state bar, and when a retired judge or anybody complains to the state bar about solicitation, it's super serious, right. And so you know, what ended up happening was, you know, we lost our client which of reparations and give back to them. You know, we felt very responsible for this issue, even though it didn't come from us, we wanted to take full ownership of that, and so we ended up having to give them a lot of money and you know, in total I mean total loss with fees and time and loss of revenue and invoices it came up to something like $2 million in total. We estimate there's a $2 million.
Speaker 1Think about that. I talked to him. My issue was 300,000 or something like that. Yours is way, way higher. So when I heard that number, man, I'm like damn, I can't imagine. But it's starting to cut you off there. But I appreciate the resiliency because that happens in business, right, and that was because a number of factors it's happened to me too. A couple of my issues happened because of that blind trust and the referrals Referrals most of the time, 90% of the time. You're good yeah totally.
Speaker 2It's that 5% or 10% where you place your blind trust and you don. We had this issue with. They weren't trying to do this maliciously per se, I mean, you know, per them. The issue was that one of their account managers simply just crossed wires. They sent us calls we weren't supposed to receive, right, and so that kind of added some salt to the wound because like it wasn't even purposeful, like negligence, it was just like straight up a mistake. And but when one phone call can hurt your reputation and one phone call can really, you know, lose you a lot of money and cause such massive headaches, it it you start to look at like hey, is this blind trust thing, is this really a strategy? Like, can you rely on that in your business? And we decided no, yeah that's.
Speaker 1That's great and it's a great story. I mean, it wasn't great at the time, but it's great that you were able to bounce back from it and because of that, now you have a solution that's not just, you know, for you guys, but for the whole industry. So I want to talk about that, like what. First of all, I guess, before we talk about, let's rewind a little bit and talk about when you got that phone call and you went through this I mean, I imagine you didn't sleep. You're probably you and your partner's like what the hell Did you think you were going to go out of business. Let's talk about that, those moments, because I think those are the moments that define people as entrepreneurs, right?
Business Integrity and Risk Management
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely Obviously we were. We were shocked and obviously a bit perturbed. But you know, this is something, being in the industry, that we have seen in other ways. You know, when I first got started in the industry, I it, like you said, you pay down the tax of ignorance, right. And so when you're relying on third parties, sometimes if you don't have the knowledge of how to vet them right or they're trying to do something malicious, you you can become, you can't get the short end of the stick there. And so, because I think we had that experience in the past, while this was a much bigger issue, we kind of kept our heads on as straight as we could and just like we're going to take full ownership of this and we're going to do right by the client and try to make good, because I think at the end of the day, you know, our reputation is the most important thing in business. So, yeah, I mean there was obviously some upset, but we tried to stay as level-headed as we could.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think there's. You said something really insightful there. You did the right thing by the client. I know other people have been in situations and there's a couple of things. They'll fight the client, or they're trying to negotiate oh, they're trying to negotiate. Oh, I'm just going to pay you half or a quarter or whatever, and they just point the finger at them or they'll just disappear completely. They won't even own up to it or they'll do stuff like that. That's happened to me one time in particular. Something similar happened to you. One of them cost me $60,000. The guy disappeared. It was a nightmare. But I did the right thing by the client, right, totally, and that's what it comes down.
Speaker 1And going back to those conferences not just a lawyer attorney conference, but any conference, these are small worlds, it might be. You go to Leeds Con, you go to Philly. It's massive. There's tens of thousands of people at these shows, but the cream of the crop is really tight. There's a tight inner circle. So that negative news if you did the wrong thing by that particular client, I guarantee you a whole bunch of other attorneys would have found out. Your existing clients would have found out and they were to cut ties with you. So it's it's it's a real business decision. It's not only just ethical, but it's business wise. You got to do the right thing, cause you do the right thing, by then you stay alive, you keep moving in the right direction and you live.
Speaker 2You got to live to fight another day, man, and come up with other solutions, absolutely so. We just try to make every day better than the one before. I love that.
Speaker 1You can only fail if you stay down right. I had a similar experience the $150,000 issue and I made it right and at first I was like man is there I was trying to think of. If there's any solutions, let me just, I got to bite the bullet, I was wrong.
Speaker 1I was in when we did it and we, we, we allowed that to happen. And then I wound up making with that client probably four and a half, $5 million in revenue over the next two years. That was a cost of doing business. That was my ignorance. Tax is what it was. But if I didn't do the right thing by them, I wouldn't be doing business with them. And then I wound up making out under the margins. Where? But definitely seven figures, yeah, so like that. So I had to pay the 150, pay the piper, pay my, and guess what? Now I'm stronger. We have compliance departments in our company. We audit, we do this, we do that and, knock on wood, we haven't any issue in years. So I think and that's going back to what I was trying to get to that's how you, that's the origin of Truecall, right?
Speaker 1So, how did that, that whole thing evolve? Obviously, you had this issue. It impacted you, Do you think, man? I got to create a solution for this so it doesn't happen again. I got to help other people out.
Speaker 2Yeah, so originally the idea was like, after that happened, we were like we just can't take any inbound calls, we can't. We had to do everything internal and that's fine, Right, that's obviously a workable strategy and there's something wrong with that. But I started asking myself the question like why does it have to be this way?
Speaker 2You know what I mean Like other businesses, such as the larger insurance, insurance carriers, brokerages they all rely on some third party marketing strategy to scale and augment their internal efforts. And why does it have to be where you can't trust this stuff to the degree that we won't even touch it, like the risk is too great? And that just didn't like add up to me and I was like there's gotta be a way to do this where we can have some confidence that what we're getting is what we're paying for and it's not coming along with all this baggage in terms of liability and risk right. And so you know, initially the idea was like let's create something for our agency in order to be able to buy calls right from third parties and not have this issue. But then it quickly turned into like why would we keep this for ourselves?
Speaker 3You know what I mean.
Speaker 2Why not help all the colleagues and friends that we have in this industry to protect themselves from these issues, you know, and really try to have a positive impact on the industry? And that was really the genesis of like, okay, we're going to, we're going to figure out the solution and we're going to bring it to the world.
Speaker 1So let's walk through what exactly true call is. I have an understanding, but for someone that has no clue about this, let's talk, let's put it like in layman's term, from the very basics.
Importance of Truecall in Call Tracking
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely so. Truecall is essentially a tool to document evidence of consumer call initiation. That is, at its core, what it does. So in its current state, it lives on landing pages wherein we can document that evidence of consumer call initiation. We work in tandem and are agnostic to call tracking platforms and we seamlessly integrate with them. And are agnostic to call tracking platforms and we seamlessly integrate with them, and by doing so, we're able to create an ID, right, that contains a bunch of things, but this ID is then able to be passed with the call and validated in real time via API.
Speaker 2So the great things about this solution which took us a while to kind of figure out how to do this in a way that wasn't super friction heavy, because obviously click-through rates and friction for consumers is never a good thing, especially when you're talking about advertising dollars and so we created a solution wherein it's not noticed by the consumer I had under 10 milliseconds of load time on the page and we're able to document everything we need to give the end user the confidence that, hey, somebody landed on this page, right? Here's what they did, here's how long they spent on the page and they called from this page, right, and by doing that we can eliminate kind of the possibility of outbound calls, kind of slipping through right, because they won't have this ID associated with them. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1Yeah. So I'm going to bring it back to my example, similar to your example, what happened to me a couple of years ago in one of my companies, a paper call company, we had a campaign in insurance and we were starting to scale it. We went from like $2,000, $2,000 or $5,000 a week to $10,000 a week, to $20,000 a week and we got it to like $40,000, $50,000 a week. Right, and I'm like God, this is great. Now we're going to get it to $100,000. We're going to start scaling.
Speaker 1I was like we're in that right spot and I remember I was leaving a show in Vegas Friday talking to the guy running the campaign like hey, did you check? We wanted to make sure these we're getting a weird feeling about our partner on this that was providing the inbound calls, something. The guy working on my team said he heard a call that didn't make sense. It struck him like it was a transfer from an agent and not an inbound call. So I'm like something's not right here. I said do you put this? We had like a thing to protect against, litigate all this stuff. Did you put that check in? I actually didn't Like we got to do this right away, man, and interestingly enough, my flight lands.
Speaker 1As soon as it landed, I had got a call from the buyer saying we got a problem. Like I got that dreaded call oh no, and the same kind of similar to what happened to us. And it turned out that as we started investigating this stuff, the publisher we're working with was like no, these are inbounds, don't worry about it. It turned out they weren't. He couldn't provide the evidence and it turned out it was a litigator. All those dumb issues happened. So, essentially, if your solution was available at the time and we had utilized it, that would have blocked that call from going through, correct, yeah?
Speaker 2it just wouldn't have happened. Yeah, a thousand percent. And you know, just to make something clear to you, know, our system it documents evidence of that consumer landing on that page and calling. And then we also add a layer of fraud detection to ensure, you know, people don't try to game the system in any way. Right, because web and phone are intrinsically separate systems. Right, and so we use available technologies to marry those two things. Right, the web session, the consumer session and the phone call. Right, subpoenaing a cell phone carrier, there's no 1000% way to guarantee that that call was consumer initiated.
Speaker 3But what?
Speaker 2we can do is erect as many barriers as we can to make a system that prevents as much as humanly possible Right. Does that make sense? Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And and make it extremely hard to get around, yeah, right, where it's just, it becomes financially and economically not worth it to even attempt to do it. And that's something that we thought about. A lot was like okay, great, we have this basic process, this basic system. You know, let's think about how we could try to get around this, right, how to break the set how to break this Like a hacker trying to get you.
Speaker 1Yeah, how to break this.
Speaker 2So we spent a lot of time on that and figuring out every kind of which way that it possibly could be got around. And that's where our layer of fraud detection, where we leverage machine learning, is to prevent anybody from essentially trying to tamper with the system so we can maintain confidence in the system.
Speaker 1Yeah, maintain confidence in the system, yeah, and at the end of the day, what it comes down to is this there's a lot of money to be made in Legion, paper call transfers, whatever it is, there's always going to draw in unscrupulous people trying to get around, gain the system. And that's what happened in my particular campaign. And what sucked about my campaign is that I had a separate campaign that was similar but different. It was a Spanish campaign that was crushing it and the buyer threw out the baby with the bathwater. I'm like, at least keep the Spanish campaign going. No, and it sucked because it's hard to get. Especially at that time there weren't a lot of Spanish buyers in insurance. Right, right, oh my God.
Speaker 1So the opportunity cost. It wasn't just what we lost, it wasn't a cost in the $60,000 this issue, but it was the future business that we lost. It was that Spanish business that we lost. So, all in all, I might say it costs us 60, but if I had to really nail it down, it was definitely mid to high six figures, maybe millions, man. So the bottom line is that, as business owners, yeah, we want to cut costs, right, we want to return, get as much ROI as possible, but you have to invest in things that are going to differentiate and protect your bottom line and your downside, because if you don't do that, you're going to lose those clients. And 60,000, some people might be a lot, it might not be a lot, I don't know. Everyone's got different, it's relative at the end of the day, but it really was more than 60,000. It was at least 10x that because of what I lost in terms of losing the client. Like you lost that client. That's why it costs you millions, right so.
Enhancing Pay-Per-Call Compliance Measures
Speaker 1I think that's the beauty of it. So what are? How does this work If? If, let's say, I wanted to be a client of True Callways and I'm I'm I actually just signed the paperwork. I'm going to be a client real soon. We're onboarding right. I'm super excited because listen, the bigger you become, the bigger target you get you are. That's what it comes down to at the end of the day. You know I'm on this fucking show, I love my show, but, like people see that, you know they're going to start to do some shit, so I got to be buttoned up. At the end of the day, anybody that's doing big numbers has to be buttoned up. So let's walk through the process. How does it work?
Speaker 2How do people? So, in terms of onboarding, we kind of broke down the system into two parts. Right, we have generators, which is pretty much a catch-all term for anybody creating the phone call right and creating that ID. And then we have end users. So end users is really anybody in the chain of custody, that is, validating that call right, or validating that call with that ID, call with that ID, and so you know if you wanted to come on board in order to validate calls, those would be a paid account, whereas the generators are completely free.
Speaker 2Got it? Does that make sense? And that's awesome. Yeah, and so you know. Essentially, once you come on board, it's as easy as setting up campaigns and then setting up a simple web hook to do the verification and also inviting the generators that you want to receive calls from. So you would go ahead and get a link and you could invite them and they could create a free account and once they start generating IDs, you would then validate those IDs and things would transact as normal. But with this happening in real time via API, it will help prevent anything else from coming through other than what you're paying for.
Speaker 1Got it. So in my case, where I had your case, if back two years ago, if this product was available, then I'd put it in my system, what would happen? I can kind of that rogue publisher, media buyer, affiliate, whatever you want to call them what would have happened? I can kind of that rogue publisher or media buyer, affiliate, whatever you want to call them I would have told them and right now I tell everyone hey for you to work with me, you got to use this, you got to use Truecall, you got to sign up for this, and then that would have just made sure that called in and go through. And then what probably would have happened is that that would have shown this guy he would have been caught with his shorts down. I can't do it. All these excuses would have come out Right. So that's essentially why things are going to happen. You're going to really create transparency.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely, and I think that you know there's a lot of you know awesome publishers out there and and generators who we've talked to have absolutely no issue with, with integrating with this. But of course, there's going to be some who are doing outbound calling, right, and they want to sell you what you think is an inbound call but it's actually an outbound and of course, those people are going to push back a bit you know, yeah, and so I like that, because inbound calls are not easy to generate, especially at scale, and a lot of the not saying everybody, but there's a good chunk of people that they have budgets to hit.
Speaker 1And when you see you start to provide good quality, you see someone open up a budget to, let's say, 50,000, 100,000, some really good number per day. People get desperate. They get, you know, the buyer is giving them pressure. So when people get desperate, they do desperate measures. So then they'll contact a call center. It they do desperate measures, so then they'll contact a call center. It's like, hey, let me get some transfers in here, sure. And then the call center, they think it's calling on good data.
Speaker 2But you know they get there and they're doing blind transfers, all that stuff, yeah Right.
Speaker 1So at the end of the day, you're shooting yourself in the foot. It's better off being honest and saying listen, I can't deliver that.
Speaker 2This is what people do. They're looking to not not everybody, but the unscrupulous characters will do it. So I love that this creates that transparency. Absolutely, and you know our, our whole goal is we want to make this a win-win right. We we don't want this to be over burdensome to the publishers and that's why we are speaking with publishers all the time. You know, now that we've launched about feedback and what would make sense and functionality and features to try to make this as seamless as possible, and we're really optimistic that the publishers who do decide to integrate right and do validate or allow for their calls to be validated eventually might be able to seek more for their phone calls right. They become more valuable Right, and we think that is a great opportunity.
Speaker 1And to the advertiser. It creates peace of mind. Peace of mind, you can go to bed at night knowing that if you have everybody let's say you're working with 50 different media buyers, affiliates, publishers if all 50 of them are on this platform, you know that, damn, the chance of anything happening is super, super, super minimal, right? And then if something did happen, let's, let's talk about, like, let's say, you got a litigator that you know. You have these ambulance changers, litigators. That's all they do for a living.
Speaker 3That's that's a full-time job.
Speaker 1Let's say, one of them came through and they say, um, they go to my company like, hey, dave, uh, your company, they serve me and say, hey, we guys, I called your number, or whatever. What's that process Like? How do we? We do? We contact your ops and your account manager that you can just give that phone number to, and then they provide the proof.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. I mean we, you know we document the evidence of of the consumer initiating the call on the landing page. So that could absolutely help in one of those situations where there's some kind of dispute of who called who right. Uh, that's not to say that it would be absolutely impossible for some publisher who's trying to purposely defraud the advertiser to attempt to get something through, but it would protect the advertiser in that they would essentially have some kind of proof that hey, no, you know you landed on this site, you called in right and be able to push back on that Right. And our, our whole goal is prevention. So while I can't guarantee and say that 1000% you'll never, ever get that type of call, we can do everything in our power to reduce it right to as much as possible and as little of a chance of anything slipping through, and then you also have that evidence to try to push back as well if something doesn't happen.
Speaker 1And if I were an affiliate media buyer listening to this, I think it gives you that credibility that, hey, you can go to your buyer and say I just signed up for this, this is going to help you out, and we got to do whatever we can as lead sellers. Right, you have to have some sort of any sort of edge you can get. How are you going to differentiate yourself from that, the next person? It's such a competitive landscape, right. The cost of media goes up. This happens. It's hard to manage accounts. So when you have that, it shows that, hey, you're doing what you can. You're adding another element to protect your buyer, right? So I think that would be sort of and the affiliates listen to this that gives you that sense of a little bit of differentiation from your competitor. Totally, you know.
Speaker 2we think that the affiliates and publishers who use this will kind of stand out right and be able to rep and warrant that, hey, like our calls are legit, right, they're coming, they are what we say they are.
Speaker 1Yeah, great. And again, like I said in the beginning, business is fraught with ups and downs. It's like every time you think you're making it up the hill, something seems to come out of nowhere, kind of check you and test your resilience, take you backwards. And the fact that you guys that that that could have been for for most companies would have been a knockout punch sure, mike tyson, knockout punch. You got right, that's what that could have been. But you guys took that. You took that that punch. You know you took it, you ingested it, walking hurt, but you came back stronger. And now you have a solution that benefits everyone. And I was talking with adam. He's like you know, rising tide lifts all boats, yeah, and, and you're going to help create a rising tide in terms of the compliance for pay-per-call. Pay-per-call is not going to stop growing, it's going to keep growing. So now you have a solution there. Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, and our idea and our goal is not to like, we're trying to be as neutral as possible. Right, we want to give and empower the generators and the end users to be able to manage their own risk and their own compliance. Right, we're simply an enabler for that aspect.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, that's, that's great. So how does it work in terms of the integration? Let's say someone's on ringba, they're on retriever, finnex or whatever. How easy is it to integrate with those systems?
Creating Value for Business Success
Speaker 2Sure, it's super simple. I mean Bonexa, retriever, ringba. They have similar concepts and they work based on similar principles, and so, as long as you can receive and send webhooks, you're pretty much good, and as long as that platform has what's called dynamic number insertion or number pools, then you're also good to go good, awesome sounds easy.
Speaker 1Again. I signed up for the true call my team's working on and I know I signed on whatever I had to sign to get it going. I'm excited because I feel like that's gonna give me an edge and, at the end day, this business is all about credibility. Right? You lose your credibility, you're freaking done, right, right and just you can make a mistake one time. I I've made several mistakes. I learned from it.
Speaker 2Perfect, yeah you know, but I think I think it's not necessarily about avoiding mistakes completely, because nobody's a saint right and we're all human, we're all trying to do big things, but it's how you own up those things and take responsibility for that. That, I think, defines your character.
Speaker 1Absolutely, and actions speak louder than words too. Right, and you, you, you, you, you pay the piper in your case, like I did in my case, right With with your, your client, you, you, you said you're sorry about it.
Speaker 2And not only that you created a did to protect yourself, right, you did to protect your company, but you realized, wow, this product is so good, I need to get it out there to market. Is what? Yeah, I mean essentially the end of the day, like I always think that our, our mission is more altruistic than than anything. It's like I know you, dave, you're a great friend. I have other great friends in this industry and I have a lot of people that I've seen go through these same problems, and I just thought how nice would it be to be able to contribute and make an impact and help those guys, because I care about them, you know, and I care about businesses who are doing things the right way, you know, because those are the people who help society and move things forward.
Speaker 1You're absolutely right Small business. I've read some stat I forgot what it was. It was like I don't know what percentage of the economy it is. It's way higher than most people. I can't believe. I forgot the stat, but it was high. It was like 60 to 80% at small businesses. You know, I think small business was fine Anyone under 50 employees, right. So it's just incredible. So you're at 45, you're going to be past that, you know, at some point soon. But you know, congratulations to all your success and I love being around people that always looking for solutions to help, because business evolves. There's always new challenges and you'll create this product and, who knows, maybe it'll evolve and if you have a paper call, we'll be taking a whole nother direction. Who knows what's going to happen? But totally yeah. And the good thing is that you, you guys, don't rest on your laurels Like again well, it's what Adam before and he's just constantly looking how do I create more value?
Speaker 1You're looking to create more value, and that's what it comes down to. The more value you create, the more money you can make. The more you can reinvest in your people, the more everybody wins.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely, and I think we live in such an exciting time, we do, where the tools available to us have never been there before, right, and therefore things become more creative. Versus, you know, money oriented right, it's more about what can you do, yeah, right, what is possible, and I love that, because a day I like to create things, yeah, and so that's just what's that. That is what excites me, right, like, maybe the direction of the industry will be totally different in 10 years with the rise of AI, who knows? But if you just constantly create and look for new ways to provide value and solutions, I think, at the end of the day, you're always going to be doing well.
Speaker 1And great. I love everything you have to say. And you got to always, continually, no matter how old you are, how young you are. And again, with all the rise of the new technology, we're just outside there. I saw the Cyber, the Tesla truck, whatever it is. Yeah, it's so cool, it's funny. I saw one about a month ago, first one ever. So now I see them everywhere, but hey, it looks kind of funky, but hey, that's a new. You have these Teslas that could drive themselves, and I was in Dubai and now they're starting to create those like flying taxis. I mean it's just crazy, but you got to always be ahead of the curve. You got to evolve, and that's one thing. I've known you for many, many years. I know your partner, david, and you guys. You don't rest on your laurels and that's why I think that you've grown so much and you're going to continue to grow. So, with that being said, how can people find out more about you?
Speaker 2How can they find out more about your product here? Truecallcom Domain costs an arm and a leg, so I hope.
Speaker 1Wait, wait, there's a T-R-U-E Call C-A-L-L. Okay, absolutely, we'll put a link there for them as well.
Speaker 2Yeah, sure, 1000%. And you know, hit me up anytime I'm on LinkedIn or even Skype. You know, still I use Skype so much, and so you know I'm sure we'll find a way to connect. I'd love to show you the product, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1Yeah, great, great product Again. I won't put anyone on my show, on the LFG show, if they're not providing value At the end of the day. I grew through partnerships for people to help me get there. Leo has been one of those. Pim and his team has been to wreck yourself in honor of Ice Cube, protect your neck in honor of Wu-Tang. But great having you on the show. Man, look up his product. Let's fucking go.
Speaker 2Let's fucking go brother.