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The LFG Show
Mike Bloom’s Blueprint for Transforming Marketing Challenges into Opportunities: Navigate Regulations, Monetize Data, and Build Lasting Relationships
Have you ever wondered how marketing experts turn challenges into opportunities? In our latest episode, you'll hear from Mike Bloom of Apex Results Marketing as he reveals his strategies for navigating the ever-changing landscape of lead generation and marketing. From handling regulations like STIR/SHAKEN and the Do Not Call registry to the art of monetizing aged data, Mike shares invaluable insights that can help you stay ahead of the game and achieve sustained success.
Discover the evolution of the call center industry and how seasoned professionals have adapted from traditional telemarketing to modern techniques like direct mail, email, and social marketing. We emphasize the necessity of quality over quantity in lead generation, exploring how creativity and multiple marketing strategies can buffer economic fluctuations. Learn why high-intent leads are crucial for business growth and what it takes to maintain employee morale in a rapidly changing market.
We'll also explore the importance of building strong business relationships and recognizing your value in the marketing and media buying industry. Practical advice on networking at industry conferences and transitioning to higher-quality leads will be shared, along with the pitfalls of chasing quick profits. Celebrate the hard work and collaboration within our industry, and gain insights on how to achieve long-term success from seasoned experts like Mike Bloom. Tune in to uncover the secrets of maintaining high customer satisfaction and staying informed about industry trends and regulations.
Right around the time where they started talking about stir-shakin', where we started seeing them block all the calls and we're like you know what this is going to continue to perpetuate get worse before it gets better.
Speaker 2:It's a contact sport. You got the best leads in the world, but you can't get the person to answer the phone, whether it's stir-shakin' or the dialer or whatever.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter the fucking leads you got, it doesn't. If you can't get them on the phone, they're all worth jack shit. I personally think that there's always going to be ways to monetize age data. Just right now, it's really hard to pick up the phone and dial those people.
Speaker 2:So you just got to work on processes to get around that. Back in 2003, when I got into this, there was no do not call federal, do not call registry. Everyone was like oh man, we're fucking fucked, that's it. The industry's done like oh man, we're fucking fucked, that's it the industry's done.
Speaker 1:20 years later, it's still going. You get creative and you stay ahead of the curve. Why did the DNC come about? Because people were getting blown up on their home phones and someone decided, hey, we don't want calls during dinner anymore. But then after that we saw direct mail, email text messages, then phone calls to cell phones. Now what's happening? They started blocking all the text messages a couple of years ago. Now they're blocking the traffic to the cell phones. What are we seeing a huge rise in now? Direct mail and email Marketing's all cyclical. You need people like yourself, who have been in the industry a long time, who aren't going anywhere when times get challenging, that can show people how to ride those waves, adapt and move. That's one of the things that we've always loved about the call center space Bunch of resilient motherfuckers there. They do not sit still, they are always on the move boom, round two.
Speaker 2:We're back. We're at the uh, where's the fucking place? We're at opportunities for round two. I got my man, mike bloom. Well, by the way, your name has a really nice ring to it, mike Bloom.
Speaker 2:Appreciate that, thank you so much, you know it's like I never told you this and I'm going backwards Mike Bloom, one of the founders, partner of Apex Results Marketing Great ring to your name, mike Bloom. There was someone I talked to like when I first moved to Florida. I forgot who it was, man, I got to remember. He was like, hey, you talked to this guy, mike bloom. The guy's been in lead gen space for a while and then I didn't connect the face to the name, man, and like, I meant to tell you that a long time ago, man. So you got a good name in the industry, right, and I'm excited to have you on because I think there's gonna be a lot more people that are gonna get to know what you do. And you got a very interesting story of how you got in the game and what you're doing now. So let's talk about, first of all, apex results, how you got into the game and your whole transition, man.
Speaker 1:Oh man. First of all, thank you so much, David Chance, the LFG show, for having us out today. Really appreciate that greatly, man. I think at this point been in the industry since about 2017, we started in the age data space kind of, when the shared landing pages and co-reg was really in like, I'd say, in its prime. That was kind of the way.
Speaker 2:I like those days man.
Speaker 1:We all did really well in those days, right? Um? As with everything, though, everything changes. Good, good times turn into challenging times, and the industry's continued to change. Um, my partner, andrew Marianakis, and I kind of looked at each other one day and said you know, we really think that this way that things have been going is going to shift, and we found ourselves in the one-to-one branded marketing man, and it's been touchdown since there, so you were ahead of the curve a long time ago.
Speaker 2:When did you see that this, this shifts, when did you feel like it was starting to happen?
Speaker 1:Man, we were doing, really, we were doing some good things in the data space and we really we were enjoying it. It was, it was a good run, Um, I'd say, right around the time where they started talking about stir shaken. It was long before it actually went into effect, but it was about that time where we started seeing them block all the calls, where we started having conversations together and we're like you know what this is going to continue to perpetuate and get worse before it gets better.
Speaker 2:So you're essentially, I guess, from speaking with your clients, right, Seeing why your clients made performers wasn't as good and it wasn't really the lead. It's more about not getting in touch with the person, Because I always say this it's a contact sport. You got the best leads in the world, but you can't get the person to answer the phone, whether it's stir, shake or the dialer, whatever.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter, the fucking lead you got right at the end of the day, Was it? Was that also like one of those factors that made you huge part of it? And we tell people every single week it doesn't matter if you're buying penny leads or a hundred dollar leads, if you can't get them on the phone, they're all worth jack shit. Yeah, you know, and like it's, you got to get them on the phone and that's you know. There's plenty of technology companies out there that have really started to facilitate that process, that have made it a little bit easier. But for us here at Apex, we found that low and slow tends to win the race. Right, we do a lot lower volume. We like to see higher quality and again, that's replaced the difficulties of getting people on the phone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. I love all that. So I want to talk about what you're doing now, but I want to go back because it's I feel like there's like an evolution, right, and I I listen, I have a company connecting dots, we sell a lot of data and we know that those days are numbered. We're moving towards single opt-in and you know, and what I'm starting to see, the beginning of the year we had a big appetite, a lot of demand for it, but now people are starting to adjust. They're like, listen, I know I can squeeze a little bit more juice out of it, but I want to go ahead and start transitioning to that. So, first of all, props for having the presence of mind to do that.
Speaker 2:And, second of all, going back to those days, what I liked about those days, what I found amazing, is that a lot of call centers, they want like the cream. Everyone wants the creamy leads because that's, you know, it's easier, he's better for morale and everything. But those cheaper leads when work properly, you, you get the best bang for your buck with those leads. It's what it comes down to right. And I feel like, did you, do you see the same thing?
Speaker 1:and I want to talk about some of the results your clients were seeing with that yeah, you know, again, it's these call centers get to a point where they've got such large teams and large appetites that you need the volume. And look, we all know in this space there's only so many real-time leads per day, right, so as, whether it's the BPOs, the call centers, the end users, as they start to increase their appetite, you have to figure out ways to supplement and get that volume in there. Tight, you have to figure out ways to supplement and get that volume in there. Going back to what you said a minute ago of seeing the influx at the beginning of the year and now you're seeing a transition, I'll make the argument.
Speaker 1:I personally think that there's always going to be ways to monetize age data. I think that we're always and again, all of us you were talking to Sean earlier on we're all going to find ways to make money in that space. You and I, off camera, we're talking a little bit about what we're doing now in direct mail. There's always going to be avenues. Just right now, it's really hard to pick up the phone and dial those people, so you just got to work on processes to get around that, to still get in touch with those people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at the end of the day, when you have data, there's ways to get creative with the data right. And what you're talking about is mail-in mailer campaigns and we did that before. In the back of the day, we had some companies that were mailing for solar on our data and it worked really well. We did it for Medicare and then rules change, cms, all that stuff, so that went to hell. But that's one way we're going to transition to people. Traditional mail still works man, especially with the senior population. So else that works man, especially with the senior population. So I'm sure you see that as well. But that's the beauty of our game that there's always these things that try to knock you off.
Speaker 2:I was talking to Sean. He's been in the industry for a while. I got into the call center space and I was telemarketing for as a bond salesman back in 2003. And back in 2003, when I got into this, there was no, do not call federal, do not call registry. And I remember when they announced it everyone was like, oh man, we're fucking fucked. That's it, the industry's done. But 20 years later it's still going right. 21 years later it's going, but it evolves, it gets don't get me wrong, it's got harder, but there's always ways to make shit work. At the end of the day, that's what you're trying to say.
Speaker 1:You get creative and you stay ahead of the curve. Yeah, and it's all cyclical, right. So to your point, why did the DNC come about? Because people were getting blown up on their home phones and someone decided, hey, we don't want calls during dinner anymore, right? So that's where the DNC way back when first came about. But then after that, we saw direct mail, then email, then text messages, then phone calls to cell phones. Now what's happening? They started blocking all the text messages a couple years ago. Right Now they're blocking the traffic to the cell phones. What are we seeing a huge rise in now? Direct mail and email, and marketing's all cyclical.
Speaker 1:You need people like yourself, like Sean, who have been in the industry a long time, who aren't going anywhere when times get challenging, that can show people how to ride those waves and adapt and move. That's one of the things that we've always loved about the call center space Bunch of resilient motherfuckers there. They do not sit still, they are always on the move. And you know, andrew and I are always talking and saying we're very fortunate. As tough as the economy might be now and continues to get worse, all we do is change what we're doing because there's always a new vertical as one business struggles. Call centers go into new businesses and there's always something new to work on and get going with they shift and what happens is money doesn't stop moving.
Speaker 2:Money just moves to another direction. If one vertical goes down, boom, it goes into another vertical right. And if one vertical goes down, boom, it goes into another vertical right. And as long as you have an understanding of that and you have different poles in the water, there'll be some poles that are like biting a little bit better than the other poles, but as long as you have multiple poles, you can figure out. So how have you guys adapted to all this? Obviously you did a lot of age right and it sounds like there's still some involvement there. But not just survive, but thrive, man. We've been doing a ton over, I'd say, about the last almost a year and a half.
Speaker 1:Predominantly, we've been doing a ton in the one-to-one branded marketing, predominantly with the end user brands. It's where we see a ton of success. When a brand is able to give a strong, compelling offer to be able to put out to customers, then it drives interest. We're not really doing a ton in the real-time co-reg space and things like that. A lot of search and social high intent, high intent. Yeah, High intent, people that want to buy now, lower volume. But you're not looking at those 1% conversion rates like you were from age data list. So a lot of people can justify that higher marketing spend. So we've really been trying to double down and focus really on that branded user experience.
Speaker 2:Got it, and so the benefit to your customers is that, hey, you get less kind of attrition with your call center reps, right, better morale, better conversion, and at the end of the day, the bang for the buck is still there with these kinds of campaigns.
Speaker 1:We want you to close 15, 20%, 25% of your leads rather than 1%. Right. And again, if that means giving you 100 leads a week instead of 10,000, at the end of the day, your company is going to make more money. Your customers are going to be happier. They're going to stay longer. In turn, your employees are going to stay longer. It's a better process for everybody. It's just not as quick of a process as uploading an age data file. People are learning and adapting, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I give you so much credit for that because I see all sides I've been involved in so many different from the low intent to the high intent, to transfers, paper call, all sorts of stuff. It's funny because all those leads work, even like the penny data will work. But then you got to worry is this shit compliant? There's a lot of it comes at a cost at the end of the day, but it works. If you work a private, the co-read stuff works right. The high intent, it doesn't matter. Marrying it to the right cost.
Speaker 2:I give you a lot of credit for used. They get set in their own ways, and not just in our game but in life, and you have to somehow break out of that comfort zone. So that I want to talk about how, how was it when you first did that, like the first campaign you ran like that, or how did you take that idea like, hey, we're going to do this because I, I know how is the age data game is such a different animal man, it's like it's a lot of you know a lot more bang for your buck, lot more. You get instant gratification a lot quicker and you get the feedback a lot quicker. So how was that transition? What were the challenges during that transition?
Speaker 1:A lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of effort sunk into just making things work right. And the thing with branded campaigns and running a specific offer is you're going to figure out what works. To this day, we launch campaigns that the first couple of fall flat on their face. We say you know what? Let's change the audience and all of a sudden it ticks up and we start getting some great traffic through. So it really just depends and that's actually the fun part about our jobs now is being able to again. It's not like oh, I just need 100,000 homeowners, right, this is specifically what my customer looks like and who I'm targeting. How can we get in front of them? And that's really what makes it a lot of fun now is being able to do those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's more of a science now. It's more of a science and it's trial and error At the very beginning.
Speaker 1:I can't tell you how many thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars, we burned through just testing campaigns, just to be able to set baselines, to then go to these home services companies some of the biggest players in the industry, or the energy companies, some of the biggest players in the industry and say, hey, this is what we're doing, this is the metrics we have to back it up. But again, that's how you get in front of these people, that's how you get it done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I give you credit too, because I was just on with Sean Hall, right, and we're talking about how a lot of most media buyers that I know, a lot of the more successful media buyers they're not really people, people, people. They're not like people persons. They like to say laser focus in front of the computer screen, looking at the stats, figuring out what works, split testing stuff. They're kind of like more analytical right, where you and your partner are more you and Andrew are more like your people people. You guys are sales people. You were trained as sales people, right, and like you know how to hunt and do all that stuff. So you guys did the reverse where you went from. Most guys will be their media buyers that learn how to sell. You guys are sales people that learn how to media buy. So let's talk about that, because I've tried them and it's like it's fucking there, animal man.
Speaker 1:So a lot of credit for that. How the fuck did you do it? Honestly, man? We put the right people around us. We brought in a team. A lot of people that are going to watch this segment here know Sophia Merlino. She runs our digital marketing and she's kind of the head of our partnerships department and she absolutely kills it as far as bringing in talented copywriters to do ads, copy audiences, things along those lines. So we just you know, andrew and I try to stay in our lane. We're really good at talking to people. As Sean honed in on earlier, you got to go out to these events. We get out there, we keep the people coming through the front door and then we rely on the people that are really good at media buying and ad deployment. Let them do their job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it comes. I'm reading a book called. I just finished a book called uh, who, not how? Okay, and that's really the I recommend to everyone listening right now who, not how. It changed your perspective. We're trained in school. How do I do this? How do I solve this math problem? How, how, how, how. And then in business, it'll get you to this point. But to get to the next point, you need the who's. You need who's to start doing those functions for you, right? So that sounds like that's what happened. Right, you started to learn who are the who's around you that can help you scale the campaign and take advantage of this, while everyone else you stay in your lane and do what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 1:I truly get frustrated when I can't spend my time talking to people and prospecting. I love going and sitting in on our marketing meetings and our strategy meetings and things along those lines, but I know at the end of the day, Andrew and I both have to be out there talking to people and constantly meeting new people engaging, Otherwise there's no work for the team on the backend Right. So to your point, it was definitely we went the opposite way. We've had to do a lot of learning on that side, but I totally accredit it to our team and having the right people around us, man, they fucking kill it and they deploy some awesome campaigns.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. It's a great story. So what was the kind of like the turning point for you guys were obviously you have some campaigns that didn't work and obviously it's scary right when you go off on your own and those are those. Are you got to watch cashflow? You're like you're having these nervous nights and night said what the hell am I?
Speaker 1:doing. I've been there, right, and it's fucking nerve-wracking, so what? Was the point where, like aha, I got it at lfg. More like this was this is we're here, we're in fucking business baby, oh man, um, this is gonna be unpopular. Okay, I love it when we were able to start turning down the paper. Performance work is when we kind of looked at each other like more rev, sure shit yeah, this is really sustainable.
Speaker 1:We work in an industry now where a lot of people want the marketers and the media buyers to basically prove themselves on their campaign before they're willing to pay for anything, whether it's a rev share net, whatever it is and you know, everyone kind of has to play by those rules at the beginning. But it was that you guys said what's the LFG moment? We realized that we had enough business and that we got good enough to be able to say hey, we don't need to work for free. We're going to work with the people that are really serious about growing their brands, cause that's where we excel. Man. Man, that's been the biggest accelerator to our business so far.
Speaker 2:I love that advice and I think that anyone we all fall into that trap. I fell into that trap. I will take any fucking business. In the beginning because I'm like I was going to make me some money, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then some business wasn't worth it. You deal with some assholes. It's not worth your time, it puts you in a negative mindset. And now we're going to work with and then you can dictate your own terms.
Speaker 2:The thing, good thing, that's the thing about business there's no fricking rules, man. You know, you set the rules really within your head. You set your rules. If this person doesn't want to meet those rules, there's another company you can deal with. Right, find somebody else. And and I think that's one thing a lot of people can learn from, because especially newbies in the industry you you got to know yourself worth and maybe you got to learn the hard way is what it comes through. You got to kind of get your. You got to kind of get banged up a little bit where, like, cause I had to do that? It seems like you guys had to do it right Like fuck it, I'm tired of dealing with. I'm worth more than this. My time is. Money is what it comes down to Would you agree with that?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, would got to prove yourself. But then again, once we started seeing the type of money and the level of clients and customers that the brands are adding on, you look at each other. At some point you're like, why work for free and hope to get paid when we already know what we're providing? Let's just find the companies that want to work with an actual partner, not somebody that's going to give them something for free.
Speaker 2:Huge advice, guys. That's something you want to listen to and really take heed to, because, I guarantee you, sometimes it happens to me too I'm like let me do this guy a favor. I'm just doing myself a disservice. I'm doing them a disservice because I'm not going to be able to give them the time and attention that they want. And then you've been in this game since many years 2016, 2017. I mean, sometimes there's some lower to. You have to be, but at the end of the day, you're, you're enabling them. You're not. You're not going to help them hit their goals if you don't give them the target and you just being that honesty, being honest with them, give them that honesty and let them know where you're at. That that's the best favor you can do for them, because they're going to benefit. You're going to benefit too.
Speaker 1:In my opinion, every party has skin in the game is going to be where everyone's going to have the best chance of success, right? Nothing's a sure thing, but I like my odds. If you and I are each splitting the pot, I like our odds to both want to make it successful, versus if one of us are doing it trying. You know one of us is going to make it, want it to be successful, one of us hopes it's going to be successful and hope isn't a strategy in business, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're interconnected to that point, right, that's it. That's what it comes down to. So, the verticals that you're in right now doing correct me if I'm wrong home services you're doing a lot of energy like DREC kind of stuff, right? Is that the primary verticals right now?
Speaker 1:Everything home services, everything insurance, energy, what else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are definitely the top three for us yeah, I'd say those are the top, those are definitely the top three for us. So I've got I've got a lot of experience with energy. I consulted at a company called utility partners of America. We had a contract with Duke energy, fpnl, ouc. I mean so multi billion dollar companies and I know the DREC companies. I mean there's massive, there's. You're talking about multi-billion dollar companies there. So hats off to you, cause there's not a lot of people in our space working with those kind of companies. I mean these companies put you through the ringer. The contracts are crazy, indemnifications, all sorts of stuff. I know that firsthand, right. So the fact that you work with companies like that says a lot about you, that they're willing to trust you, because the bigger you are, the bigger target you are Sure. So I'm sure they put you through the ringer and did all that.
Speaker 2:So can you talk about what's it like working with that kind of company? I think a lot of people in this space they don't realize there's time to level up right. You, you might get a, you might meet someone and like maybe nothing against brokers. I was, I'm still a broker, I broker stuff. But when you're working with a broker, that what's the level the clients are working with. Right, if they're working with these smaller companies, you're going to be getting small orders. But when you level up and deal with companies like that, it changes the whole landscape and it causes you to think different, because now you've got to deliver a different kind of quality of service. The stakes are higher in general. Stakes are higher. That's what I'm trying to say. Stakes are higher in general.
Speaker 1:Yep, you know it's as you mentioned, anytime you're working with these like enterprise-sized clients and and you know the energy sector much like any of them has their small mom and pop businesses all the way up to you know the fortune companies and the enterprise companies and you know, as with anything, you've got to start slow, start at the bottom and work your way up.
Speaker 1:You know going back to going to the conferences we go to the energy marketing conferences and we're always involved in what's going on in the industry and we just stay relevant and when somebody has a need we try to show them how we can help with the solution.
Speaker 1:Andrew's got a great line and a great story that he tells where one of his best relationships in this space was over a year, just a friendship before they ever did any business together, and then turned into one of his biggest clients for a long time and he's gotten even more really good friends out of that. That has spiraled into new business for us years later and you know it's it's again putting yourself out there. I know that's a huge theme, kind of that you talk about and it's so important, man, just to put yourself out there and being in front of people and that goes a long way in getting in front of these big companies, because they know, if you're not afraid whether it's on a podcast, going to the show, making that financial and time investment they know that you're the real deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was a lot of content there. I got good information that you packed into that. First and foremost, if you're in a certain vertical, you got to go to the shows where the buyers are at. The industry specific there's leads cons, there's leads cons, there's affiliate summits, all that kind of stuff. But a lot of times, sometimes your buyers won't be there. They're going to go to the shows where the other, their, their peers, are at because they're trying to get industry knowledge. They're talking about industry specific uh, rules and regulations. I went to a debt settlement one a long time ago and I was shocked there weren't a lot of other people in my space. There weren't other like guys that do what we do there, and I was like wow. So that made me realize I'm in the right place. Sometimes you got to go in other, in places that other people aren't at. So hats off to you for doing that, because then then I, how many other people in industry were at that show that you're at that you've referenced as energy show?
Speaker 1:probably not a lot, right very, very few, especially when you go to the the industry specific ones energy, energy marketing conferences. We were at the home growth summit in Atlanta a few weeks back. Very few people there again, so your competition is much less. It's just about being in front of those people and again, some of that materialized into business right away. Others have just been good conversations that will hopefully materialize into something down the road.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even if they don't materialize something. Sometimes you gain some information, some industry knowledge. There might be a new law coming across that you had no freaking clue about every time.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that gives you the edge over your competition. Because now, when you're talking to a prospect LA, hey, are you? You know, we know that there's laws coming across and you sound like you're you're a partner to them or you're taking a consultative approach, rather than, hey, I'm trying to shove leads down your throat. You know these leads cause this. Oh listen, I know you got this law that's going to affect you in new york, or did you hear about this? And sometimes you'll be amazed that they won't even know. So then when you're giving that information, it's making them look good, they can go to their boss. Hey, did you know that? I've had a lot of times that happened to me in solo, like bro, did you hear what's going on in Texas? The governor did this Like what? I didn't know about that. Holy shit, let me go tell the CEO. And the CEO was like wow, tell Dave. I said thank you for telling me that, because that could be a fucking pothole that could ruin the whole company, man.
Speaker 1:So that's the end of the day. When you bring information like that to somebody, you become an indispensable resource, right, and again, there's, there's a lot of those things that don't, they're not actually a part of this sales process. If you would, that will solidify relationships forever. And it's those types of things, man, that really like cement you in with, with those groups of people, and then they tell their friends. Right, you get one CEO of one of those companies that like it. All of a sudden they're out on the golf course and they're telling all their buddies, and Monday morning your phone's ringing with with a whole bunch of new business with guys you've never talked to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, cause you're the. We're talking with Sean before. We talked about this earlier. How do you differentiate yourself? How do you get it? We're all looking for an edge at the end of the day on business, and that's the edge. Going above and beyond. Looking at news articles, I do certain industries, I have Google, google feed, news alerts that pop up and I read stuff that other people aren't reading and that helps separate you. You want to be an expert at the end of the day, and that's exactly what you're talking about is being that expert. And then they tell their friends. And the other thing that people don't talk about enough is that there's a lot of churn that goes on where you might be dealing with company a and the person that was the buyer winds up going to company b. You keep company a now you just got company b right and sometimes they go, so now you got company c.
Speaker 1:That's when one plus one equals fucking 10 and a lot of people think that it's bad when people keep swapping around. But then you get. You get industry you just gotta raise, like energy. You just got a huge raise right because you've got friends now at two, three, five companies instead of that one. And man again. That's when you, when you stay, stay true to what you do. Those are the things that spiral out of control. Man for the.
Speaker 2:For the best 100, and that those are the little things that give you that little distinct advantage. Right, and that's what it comes down to at the end of the day. And then there was something else you said about. You were talking about the story with Andrew. He had a buyer. It took like you said Well over a year.
Speaker 1:Just somebody that he met, actually met through LinkedIn, and they just talked and they became friendly, started exchanging information, valuable information. Years later still really good friends and have brought countless clients both to us as an agency and to Andrew over the years. And again, it's just building those relationships and making it so that people want to work with you, no matter where they are and what they're doing. You know, somebody could be working for somebody today and be in a whole different industry, as you mentioned all the time, a year from now and say, hey, I've got this guy, david, that could really help me out. Let me give him a shout and see what's happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it comes down to, people want to do business with people that they like Every time. So there might not be an immediate thing there, but you, you had a good vibe with that person. Keep talking to them, you know, keep talking and building that relation because it really is. I mean, people decide it is a relationship business and you never know where that person is going to be. I gave that example. I gave an example before about someone that I knew that was in in solar. We had a great relationship six, seven months.
Speaker 2:I don't know what happened. I don't know, I don't remember what to happen if he quit or got fired. Something happened and he was out of work for a while. I hooked him up with a bunch of people. Nothing materialized for him in terms of economics, with with those people, in terms of getting a job, but then he wound up getting a job at a big, at a big advertiser and a whole completely different industry. They only had six vendors Guess what?
Speaker 2:Also, like Dave, you're always great to me. I know your leads are good. You're going to be vendor number seven and boom, we just did 200 grand right this month, first month. That's like unheard of for a new campaign. Boom is right. That's what happens, right. So it's like you do the right thing. It doesn't always come back, but fuck it, just keep doing that. And then you have a good vibe with someone. Help them out, listen to them and that's going to. You do that long, more and more than often, like Andrew did. It came back in a big way and then let the referrals, and one plus one equals 10 at the end.
Speaker 1:And then the dividends for those relationships continue to pay forever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you've been doing this for a good period of time. What do you think? We're talking about? Relationships here. What has? I'm sure you've seen great success stories. You've seen some fucked up stories Like let's talk about both. Let's talk about what's the commonality with the success stories, right, maybe one or two things, because I believe two things. I think success leaves clues, and failure leaves clues too. Sure does. Let's talk about the clues that both sides left.
Speaker 1:From what you've seen, you don't have to mention names or anything but like situations man, one of the two of the commonalities Two of the things that I recognize amongst most successful people that I know is one they stay in their lane. They know what they're really good at and they try to be really good at that, and they put people around them that are good at the other things or the things that they're not good at or don't want to be doing. That's one thing. I think that every highly successful person has that trait they know what they're good at and they double down on that. If I had to give a second example, a second kind of thing there, I would say that the most successful people aren't afraid to change. When somebody sees a train coming, you got to get off the fucking tracks. No ego, you know too.
Speaker 1:Too many people say I've been doing this for so long, you know there's, there's an old story I wish I can remember who who said it but it was basically like um you, sorry, I wish I can remember who said it, but it was basically like you know, if you do what you've always done, you're gonna get the same results, and that's fine if nothing's changing.
Speaker 1:But when everything's changing, if you're not doing different things, you're gonna get left behind. And so I think that the most successful people, in addition to just staying in their lane and doing, what they're really good at doing is they're not afraid of change and adapting, and when they see things coming, you got to duck and move quickly. We talked earlier in this segment kind of about people in the call center space how resilient and open to change they are to be highly successful and to be. You know, some of these eight, nine, 10 figure earners, like some of the other people that you've had on your podcast, a lot of them. Recently you got to see trains coming and you got to get off the fucking tracks. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Great advice. It's so true, it really is, and you guys are a good example of that. You were in the age game, co-reg game, doing what you were doing there, with lower intent leads, and then you saw I got to start, you got to start transitioning to the more high intent stuff and it's working for you obviously.
Speaker 1:And there's always going to be ways to monetize that again, whether it's email, whether it's direct mail, other types of campaigns. But you still got to duck and move and be changing and adapting with the times. And look, everybody has their cell phone in their hand. Now we live in like we're all focused on the devices. Now it's got to be customer experience. Right At this point you got to do what the customers want and got to be there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Customer is a boss right that customers want and got to be there. Yeah, customers are boss right there. That's right every time, whether you agree with them or not. Cool, that was a great example there. So now, on the flip side, what's some of the this industry? I love this industry, right, but there's a lot of fucking, a lot of thorns. There's a lot of potential to get involved in some dumb shit, vices, whatever I mean. So I I've seen all of this stuff, right and and so what would you say? What? What's, what's the commonality amongst like people that maybe they were doing well and then went to shit like what are some examples that are like pitfalls to avoid?
Speaker 1:it's no secret, the people that are successful in this space make a lot of money. But it scares me when people make too much money too quickly because we're in a very scalable business right and systematically it should be scaling, scaling upward right. So we too many times we see campaigns that are like new campaigns that people get excited about. We see it a lot in the health space that people kind of jump in because it's easy money and then things quickly go downhill and that scares me anytime that you get a lot of people that jump into those type of campaigns.
Speaker 1:I've seen a lot of people go off the rails in the industry trying to chase those type of highs. I guess I'll call them. There's nothing glamorous about doing marketing for companies that are doing bathroom or kitchen renovations or putting solar panels on their roof or selling deregulated energy. There's nothing glamorous about that right. Everybody wants to unload thousands of people during open enrollment. So it scares me when I see people jumping to the campaigns for quick money. I've seen a lot of people go off the rails in this industry in that regard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and with Strong we're talking about the herd mentality. That's what it is. I think that so many people shift and this guy's doing great, jake's doing great in this thing. I got to jump in there. And then what happens is you might slow but steady, maybe you're not making the money you want to make, but you're making progress and you lose sight of that progress. Shiny object syndrome, I guess, is one of the things. Perfect, it's so fucking relevant in our industry.
Speaker 2:Like, and I, I did that too in the beginning. Yes, I did. One thing I did was I focused on solar. I went pretty much what you said. I went all in on solar. But then I realized like damn, I gotta diversify. Right, so it's good to diversify, but I was trying this, trying that and still sometimes it happens to this day. But, like we've, I've learned how to kind of adjust it and temper it.
Speaker 2:But the thing is that you got to focus on what you're good at and and I'm doing really well in home improvement right now, I'm like why the fuck didn't I do that earlier? Why did I get? I started doing insurance like other people did, did okay, but didn't do great. Now I'm starting to really, really want home improvement. It makes sense. It's similar, same audience as solar. So why didn't I do that shit earlier? I'm like what the fuck's wrong with me? You know, I should know better, but it happens even to veterans as well. That's what it comes down to. So shiny object syndrome guys watch out for that. It's a real fucking thing.
Speaker 1:And I'll tell you a quick story here and give you a good example. Andrew and I did nothing in the energy space prior to COVID in 2020. All of those teams were door to door back in the day COVID hit. They couldn't do face to face anymore, so a lot of these companies switched to call centers.
Speaker 1:Andrew and I were huge beneficiaries of that. We started to get our feet wet in that industry. Over the years it spiraled out of control but and has become our biggest industry. Now we're one of our biggest verticals. But outside of that, the energy space has led us into home services, home warranty, home security, all of these other ancillary products, because the energy companies were selling these products and services. And then we're like wait, hold on. Now we've got the metrics and the tools to be able to go and talk to these home services companies and know what they're looking for, or the home security companies and know what they're looking for. And so you know, we've seen that be a huge beneficiary to us in that these other avenues have spiraled and led to new doors for us to open up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great example. And it's true that once you nail one thing down and ask your client, what else are you doing? And you're right, I forgot. I did home warranty. I consulted the call center. For five years we had a contract with Duke Energy with their home warranty campaign Huge, and I forget how lucrative that is. And it's also a win-win for the customer, the homeowner, for the utility, for everybody. The lead generator is one of those few verticals where everybody really benefits. But I forgot how many DREC companies were also doing home warranty. So if you ask your clients, hey, would you guys do anything else? Home service is a great example.
Speaker 2:If you're doing good in roofing, there's a good chance that your buyer is also doing windows. They might be doing flooring. You just got to ask that question. I onboarded a group that we're killing it for roofing. I didn't realize they did basements. I somehow I don't know how I found out. I think someone told me. I'm like, hey, you guys do basement. Yeah, we also do basements too. Like, oh, let's give me 50, let's do 50 K Boom.
Speaker 1:I just got 50 K the questions. Yep, Couldn't agree, Couldn't agree more. And again, sometimes it's just it's building those relationships where this branch is extended and then asking those questions and taking and running with it over time. Right, yeah A lot of.
Speaker 2:A big focus that we've been talking about is relationships, and I can't emphasize. I know what a relationship business this is, and when you do the right thing by your client, you do the right thing by your partners. It just comes back to you at the end of the day, it's awesome.
Speaker 1:It's awesome here. And talking about relationships, though, you know, one of the big things obviously now, when I mentioned it early on, was that customer experience. And a lot of times on this side of the business, with how lucrative it is, you, you kind of it's easy to lose sight of the fact that that relationship between the customer and the brand is really the important part and as the advertisers, we're responsible for being the first line between that consumer and the brand. Right, and a lot of times an ad that we're deploying could be the very first time that that consumer has ever heard of that brand. So it's really important that you're putting them out there and representing them in a good light and that translates everywhere. But it's that relationship, you know, I don't know if we've talked about it, but we've been doing a ton in like the chat space now. Oh yeah, I'm glad you talked about you know, mainly because you know, as consumers, the form fills and obviously we, you know we could talk about co-reg in its own. That could be its own segment one day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but like the form fills the shared pages. You know, I think, as consumers, just about everybody, when they go onto a page and see that form, it's like, oh okay, I'm gonna fill out the form. I know that I need, I know that I want solar panels, but I also know that as soon as I hit submit, I'm getting a hundred phone calls right. So we've been doing a ton in the chat space having a personalized conversation with prospects right there the minute they've engaged with an ad. Let's get their questions answered and addressed, let's find out how interested they are right now before we ask them to call or before your sales team calls them. And we've seen a lot there. Again, it just goes back to the relationship and making that experience enjoyable and making it so that the consumer wants to speak to the company the same way as we do here on the marketing side of things, building those relationships, it's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I want to talk about that because again, another big aspect not only is it a relationship business, but we're always looking for an edge, and it sounds like you guys are constantly looking for that edge, because if you can get that edge, that's going to help your clients grow as well. So I want to walk through this flow of the chat bot that you're talking about. How does that work exactly? I mean, can you walk us through the flow, how that's working? It sounds like after they hit submit, then the chat bot gets deployed, or how does that work?
Speaker 1:So, the same way that somebody would see an ad served on any platform or media, right, they would click on the ad and, rather than take them to like a landing page to fill out a static form, we bring them right into a chat, and we could do it on any platform of their choice, whether it's Facebook, instagram, whatsapp, any of those things. Bring them right into the chat and just start engaging them. I never remember what the exact number is, but I think on these form fills they say that anytime name, address and phone number and email, and then, I think, every field from additional. From there they say you lose 40 to 50% of your signups. So we went the exact opposite direction. We're asking you one question at a time and we're getting the answer and we're engaging back and forth.
Speaker 1:And again, it's that user experience. It makes them feel warm and fuzzy, as if they're talking to an agent that actually cares and is answering their questions, and then, when they're ready to talk to somebody, they've got the. Basically, they have the choice hey, I could click here and call and talk to you now, or here's consent, can somebody please call me? And it's just that user experience has been. You know it's. The consumers are changing. Now you know again, for the same reason, that the leads are changing on one side and the carriers are blocking the calls on the other side. The consumers' preferences are changing as well. It's important to recognize that.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. People lose. I think we lose sight of that as digital marketers. Everyone wants to get an ROI and get the best earnings per click RPCs on campaigns, but you've got to put yourself and the consumers in their shoes and I think a lot of times marketers, salespeople, especially when you start making money, you kind of get disconnected and you can't be just. You've got to always have some pulse or have someone on your team with that pulse as to what's going on.
Speaker 2:So I love the fact that you guys are adapting, getting ahead of the curve. And then I agree I think that that goes back to what you were saying earlier that when we talk about age leads and we talk about those other flows, it's about it's quantity over quality, right? So when you, if someone's going to go on that chat bot, it's going to be probably less volume, but the quality of someone's actually engaging with that, that's going to be a higher intent lead that you can now charge more for. And the customer doesn't care what the price of lead is, as long as they're converting, saying their KPIs. That's all it comes down to at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:That's it. And again going back to earlier in the conversation, a company would rather a hundred leads where they're closing a much higher percentage than a thousand leads. It's not about keeping the team busy, it's about keeping the company growing Right and at the end of the day, that's what it comes down to.
Speaker 2:So yeah, no, that's great. What you said is amazing and I think that everyone listened to this. Whether you're generating leads online, you're a business person. You got to be ahead of the curve. You got to sense what's going on. I think that off to you for adapting. When you adapt, it seems like you got ahead of this way before a lot of other people did, especially with the single consent coming up on and everything. So that says a lot about who you guys are and the kind of company I'm sure your clients are very happy with that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:I'd be lying if I said that it wasn't an uphill battle, right? Any new business or new avenue is always going to be an uphill battle, right. As we've gotten closer to when some of those rules and regulations are going to affect, more and more people are taking them on. There's a couple people in the industry that are pretty outspoken on where they think the industry is going. A lot of people have basically been saying there's three categories of people. There's the people that already have in place what they're doing and when. There's the people that are first starting to think about it. And then there's the deniers, the people that don't believe any changes are coming. And I'd be lying if I said every single week we talk to people that fall into all three buckets.
Speaker 1:Isn't that crazy? Yeah, and it's crazy because it's happening. You know again, like with all you mentioned CMS a little while ago, with all the changes come in, and I think CMS is in October. So CMS's changes the ones that haven't gone into effect are all happening before the rest of the FCC things. So the health insurance companies have been going a little bit quicker and have adapted a little bit faster. They also felt a lot more pain than some of the other industries. That's a huge part of it also right. The industries that face the pain and get the hammer thrown at them are the ones that tend to be open to adapting a little bit faster.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's great you have to. You have no choice but to do that, because if not, if your customer is getting in trouble, they're going to be ahead of the curve anyway. So that's the reason that actually the actual best way talking to them, finding what's going on Right, and it sounds like you have those relationships with them as well, which is good, cool. So the last thing I want to ask you we've been talking a lot about relationships getting an edge I want to talk about scaling campaigns now, because obviously you know you you're on the other side. Where I mean you're still on that side where you sell, is biz development and whatnot. But now, in the media buying side, what's been the biggest challenge in scaling campaigns? How do you overcome those hurdles? And that must be a big challenge, man, because again, I can't imagine myself being there and look under the hood and trying to scale a media buying campaign. So that must be exciting, fun and a lot of crazy emotions, man. But how do you overcome those challenges and how do you actually know when to scale?
Speaker 1:It's exciting and fun. And I would say I think our biggest challenge is actually getting people to embrace the fact that the leads, or that the volume, is going to be slashed at the very beginning. Right, it's the same spend if you would. You're just going to get a fraction of the leads, with the objective being that they're higher quality. So that, I think, is our biggest objective. Someone says, oh, I've got a call center of a hundred people. A thousand leads a week isn't enough. Well, we understand that.
Speaker 1:You got to do other things to supplement while we scale. You know, when it comes to these types of custom campaigns, you have to do it slowly and systematically. You can't put a cake in the oven. If the recipe calls for 425 for 30 minutes, you can't turn it up to 450 for 15 minutes. It doesn't work. You can use the right recipe, but it has to cook at the right temperature for the right amount of time and marketing. And these campaigns are just like that. You really you have to let everything bake and really take the time to scale it. And you know, I think that's the biggest challenge is getting people to realize that that volume isn't going to be what it was, because you're not uploading a list anymore, but you're going to get a lot more on the backend, as long as you're patient and you stick with it.
Speaker 2:So how do you train the buyer, though? And that ending, and I have my ideas, but what would, let's say, I was one of them. I'm like listen, I'm like this, this sounds fucking nuts. I got 100 people in the call center. This is only going to keep five or 10 of them busy. What am I supposed to do?
Speaker 1:Man, everybody's dealing with the lawsuits right now. Right Once somebody gets hit with one of those, that's all the pain that somebody needs. It used to be $1,500 or $2,000 TCPA fines. Now you've got these companies being banged over the head with seven, eight figure lawsuits. That gets people to change quickly and nobody wants to be the example. So somebody sees the example being set and that's been. Our biggest advocate is hey, you see all these people getting banged over the head right now. Let's not let you be one of them.
Speaker 2:That's a great example and that's what it takes. That's it. All you need is one of them. That's a great example, and that's that's what I call it. That's what it takes. That's it. All you need is one of those, and it's such a fricking, grueling process. It's like a thorn in the back of your in your neck, like I can't, you can't wake up thinking about it, man.
Speaker 1:So that's that's that right there Back in the day to make these plaintiffs go away easy nobody cared. There was no private right of action. Six, seven, eight, nine-figure judgments those are the things that put corporations out of business right and again. Nobody wants to be that example. So when there is an example in the industry, we've been fortunate that people that tends to get people to stop and listen and say all right, let's at least hear what you got to say here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's another example of running clean versus doing all this crazy black hat stuff or whatever, because that'll really get you great ROI. But it's only a matter, if not a matter of when they're going to get banged and they will get banged, and when they're banged, you're right. And guess what? The other thing is that they might owe you. Maybe you ran a campaign up to 100 grand, 200 grand, and you win and get paid. If they're on the hook, you're not going to get that money.
Speaker 1:It's what's going to come down and I think a lot of digital marketers forget about that until they get right. When it comes back to you, if you have to pay that all back in a lawsuit or a judgment, what all that work was for nothing. It's easier to do it slower and more steady, upfront, to make sure that you don't have those issues, and then scale it over time. I'd rather make a hundred grand a week for the next 20 years than I would a million dollars a week for the next year. Right, like it's, that's. That's a no brainer to me.
Speaker 2:So yeah, great examples there. So I know I said I had a last question, but you made me think about something and I want to talk about this because it's very important. We're going to hit a lot of conferences coming up, right. What, what, what's your advice, what's your technique at the conference and what's helped you out with the conferences? We got to fill it. Someone on deck in New York, you're, you're from Long Island Must be good to go back home, right?
Speaker 1:I wish it was a little bit more enjoyable to go back to.
Speaker 2:New York. It is tough in July in. New York. Yeah, yeah, it's funny, there's a Mets game behind us too. Oh is there, are they?
Speaker 1:still playing the Yankees.
Speaker 1:They were playing the Yankees either yesterday or the day before Wasn't going good for the Yankees last night. These conferences you got to put yourself out there. I'm, admittingly, not the best person. At that. It takes a lot. I really am somewhat of a shy person, especially around new people I know. Recently you did a segment you were talking about with Sean. He talks about his bright red pants. I remember the first conference I met him at he had the bright orange pants on Ken. You just got to put yourself out there and make sure that you're being memorable, so that people know who you are. I'm not a big partier, so I'm not the one that's staying out late at night getting banged up at the bar, but I am one of the first people at the conferences every morning and so I get out there early and I try to talk to people, and you know I go out to these conferences. I can't tell you how much business I've pulled by meeting people in the gym at 6.30 in the morning before the conference even starts.
Speaker 1:You know why? Because if you're in the gym at the same time as me in the morning, you're the dude that I want to work with, and so I walk up to people and say, hey, I saw you at the a commonality there. If you're in the gym at 630 in.
Speaker 2:Vegas before going over to the convention center.
Speaker 1:We could be boys, let alone work together. We could be friends.
Speaker 2:That's very and I love that. You said that there's so many different ways to work to sell, to do anything right and to work a conference. But that is true. I mean I work I'm not sure I'm there at six, 30, but you some there anytime seven, eight. But when you see someone else, there's not a lot of people at the gym. And in the morning I mean if, if there's a thousand people at a show, maybe freaking, I'd say three to 5%. So if you're someone that's really into working out, if you're an advertiser and you see someone selling leads, that maybe you haven't done anything with it, you're, in some sort of respect, birds of a feather flock together kind of thing. So that's a great, that's some great words of wisdom, man. So I've had some guys that I've I've I've seen at the gym and it just helps like, yeah, what are you? What are you doing? What are you working out today? And you start talking. You just earn a little certain respect, it's a natural icebreaker right.
Speaker 1:And those environments at the affiliate summits, whether it's East West, leeds, con, contactio, all great events, but you're talking thousands of people. You got to feel comfortable and build up that courage to walk up and just speed date, essentially right. So anytime you could find that commonality I'm a big watch guy. I see somebody wearing a nice watch at one of these conversations, at one of these shows. I go up and I start a conversation hey, man, really love, really love your watch. You know, I've got one similar, I've got one like this what do you do? And again, anytime, the faster you can find that commonality, the easier it is to build those relationships. And you know our team, we go out to these events, man, and we just try to talk to as many people as we can. And you know it's, it's speed dating out there. So for anyone that hasn't gone to a conference that's hesitating, definitely go. Anyone that has been to a conference that's debating if they should go to the next one, always go to the next conference, man, you never know. Wow.
Speaker 2:Great advice. The watch thing is big, especially in our industry. There's so many people that you know they're proud of what their accomplishments are and the watch says a lot about you, I think. Right so the fact that you, those little things, go a long way and I there's so many times I wear my watches at the shows and you're like, hey, that's a nice color, I've been well.
Speaker 1:I've been lying, that one dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, you know, and then you could start building a relationship. And again, it's a lot easier to break the ice over you know, nice, watch, or hey, I see you in the gym, or whatever it is right or sitting out down at lunch, than it is just to walk up to some random person and say, hey, I'm Mike, what do you do for work? Right, so it's just, it's, it's. You know, you just got to get out there and put yourself out there and not be afraid to talk to people.
Speaker 2:It's all. It sounds so easy, right, when you think about it, but it's a process. It takes time. It's finding birds of a feather that flock together, finding people on the same vibe, same wavelength at the end of the day, right, and it's like one of those things that just takes time, and the more you're out there, the luckier you get, is what it comes down to, I think. Yeah, good stuff, man, I appreciate it. Michael, it's a pleasure to be on. Any last words, anything else maybe we didn't touch upon that you want to talk about.
Speaker 1:No, the last thing that I want to say is I really appreciate everything that you and your team are doing for the industry. We've talked about doing a podcast for a long time, because there's really a lot of value out there that people on both sides of the equation both media buyers, marketers and the end brands really need to hear and learn. You've had a lot of great guests on everybody, from Adam Young from Ringba or Carlton Washington from Forever Young. You've got some of South Florida's top entrepreneurs here that are really dropping good knowledge and teaching people that are coming up behind them how to do great things. So I just want to say thank you for everything you and your team are doing for the industry, because you're inspiring to those behind you and you're continuing to help us all propel forward. So thank you we appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that means a lot from the bottom of my heart, but this isn't easy. There's a lot of work that gets put into this, a lot of time, and guys like Carlton and those other people. They might not be in digital marketing, but they're in sales at their their own businesses and it's all. It's all a lot of the same battles that we go through. So that means a lot, while you said and we're going to keep doing it, man, and having you on the show and you know your your slice of what you've been doing. I mean the idea is that we want to impact people and the's all we can do that grows the ecosystem at the end of the day, and I really firmly believe you feel the same way. You and Andrew feel the same way.
Speaker 1:So thank you, I got one more shout out here and then we'll. We'll wrap up here. Your, your man, chance over here behind the camera dude is one of hands hands down, one of the most talented dudes in the industry. Man incredibly fortunate to have him a part of your team. Very jealous and dude, keep this guy close.
Speaker 2:Thank you. We wouldn't be where we are without him, man, you know we'll see what the AFI is coming up. You know you better fucking be there, bro. You're coming right.
Speaker 1:LFG show for the AFI award. Let's go, don't let him down.
Speaker 2:Good shit, man, michael Bloom. How can people?
Speaker 1:find out more about you, man. Thank you so much, man. I'm always on LinkedIn. Man Michael Bloom at Apex Results Marketing, I'm not difficult to find. Reach out to Dave, reach out to Chance. Whatever you guys need, man, happy to help, yeah we'll put a link on there.
Speaker 2:Hit him up. Obviously he knows his shit, doing really him as part of doing great shit.
Speaker 1:They've been doing this for a.