The LFG Show
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The LFG Show
DESTINED FOR GREATNESS: THE FIGHTER’S MENTALITY WITH STAN PAVLOVSKY 🥊
What separates the top 1% of performance marketers from the rest? Hunger. Not for recognition—but for knowledge, growth, and execution.
In this high-energy episode of The LFG Show, we sit down with Stan Pavlovsky, a Toronto-born powerhouse who went from grinding as a law clerk to becoming one of the sharpest minds in pay-per-call marketing. His journey is built on discipline, resilience, and a fighter’s mentality.
Before making his name in marketing, Stan spent his time continually "failing upwards" through life as he says. His love of Muay Thai taught him resilience and that every mistake had real consequences—and that shaped his entire approach to business. The same skills that define elite fighters also separate the top marketers from the pack:
🥊 discipline—every rep, every sparring session, every deal. no shortcuts.
🥊 adaptability—reading your opponent, just like reading the market.
🥊 relentless execution—when you commit, you go all in. no hesitation.
Stan’s breakthrough? Understanding that sales isn’t about talking—it’s about listening. The top closers and dealmakers don’t sell, they build trust, create value, and execute with precision. Or as Stan puts it:
💥 “There’s no difference between romance and sales. Both require extreme trust.” 💥
Stan takes us deep into the evolution of performance marketing and shares his insider insights on:
✅ transitioning from a “safe” job in Canada to taking big risks and winning
✅ how AI is transforming pay-per-call—and why the smart money is moving fast
✅ the #1 mistake marketers make (hint: don’t put your lowest-paid employees in charge of critical tasks!)
✅ why jumping between verticals is a losing strategy—specialization wins
✅ his new role as Chief Strategy Officer at Enroll Here—and how he’s revolutionizing Medicare enrollment with an omnichannel approach
And if you’re feeling stuck in your career or business, Stan’s final words hit like a Muay Thai knockout punch:
🔥 “Take your own advice. Believe in yourself. Say ‘f*ck it,’ do the hard thing, and don’t stop until you win.” 🔥
Timestamps:
0:00
Introduction to Stan Pavlovsky
4:43
Starting in Personal Injury Law
13:14
Learning to Sell Through Honesty
21:59
The Network Effect and Growing at Retriever
30:42
The Mind of a Top Performer
47:06
Industry Evolution and Future Disruption
1:06:33
What Makes the Best in the Industry Succeed
1:25:30
Final Advice on Taking Action
LFG. It's March 11th. Man, spring season is here. It's March Madness going on. Listen, I'm very, very, very excited. I have a good friend of mine, someone I've known for a very long time, very instrumental in my success in the industry and the growth of my company. Very instrumental, a lot of people successful, which we'll talk about. Just a wealth of knowledge and someone that's just. I'm just excited to have you here, man. We've been talking about this for a long time. It's glad to have you on the show. He just came from Thailand. He just came from Dubai. I got a stamp of Lasky on the show, man, I'm pumped to have you on man. Thank you, brother thanks all good.
Speaker 3:Uh, it's good to be here. You know we've been talking about being on this podcast, I think, for years and like it just didn't work out. Whatever things happened, there's industry drama, there's all sorts of shit, so eventually we finally made it happen. Um, very, very excited. I got goosebumps when you were saying that. You know, because we really have been talking about having me on for a long time and, uh, you know I'll try and provide as much value as I can and kind of tell my story and talk about, you know, different cheats and hacks that people can use to make more money in pay-per-call, but also about my outlook on the industry and you know whatever else you want to discuss.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm eager to talk about that. Obviously, we were just in Dubai and, funny story, we were Philly World, budapest and then we want to be on the same flight. Where are we going back, you?
Speaker 3:were coming to Toronto. It was actually from Dubai.
Speaker 2:No, but prior to that, Budapest, we were on the same flight. I'm with my wife right and then I see you on the same flight, and then in Buda, in Dubai, I'm going to the elevator. I go in the elevator flight on the way to Toronto. Man, it was pretty. We're running to each other man.
Speaker 3:That was weird. And then thank you for taking my picture passed out on the plane. You and, like 90% of my friends as long as we fly together, at least like most of my friends will start taking pictures of me passed out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but, man, I'm a word. I haven't shown that to anybody. Only you and me have seen that. Good, we should keep it. Yeah, yeah, we'll see. Maybe we can do a poll here. Who wants to see that picture? Man, maybe we donate some money to charity or something. What do you think? No, no, make great a win-win here, man.
Speaker 3:That's a terrifying prospect, but then you know what we need to do.
Speaker 2:We start with me, no problem, but then whenever we capture a picture of one of the conferences, we get them all the time. Three times we got a passing out. We got Michael Walker passing out. I'm surprised. Oh, she got me, chance got me. We were on the way to crazy. Did you sleep? Yeah, I sleep, man, I actually get decent sleep, but that was the one time someone caught me in public. We're not even in public. This fucking guy wasn't supposed to put that in public. He't put that on LinkedIn. By the way, I can't curse on LinkedIn anymore. We're getting warnings. All right, so it'll be PG. Yeah, that's all Curse, all you want, bro. Fuck those guys, fuck LinkedIn. Yeah, man. Anyway, they need their stock to go up.
Speaker 3:What the hell are they worried about man? What the hell, man, this helps. This is real. This is a real conversation with. I'm going to pat myself on the back, but in reality, why not curse? Everybody curses.
Speaker 2:Yo, they say people that curse most have the most integrity. I got man integrity. Anyway, let's go back. So, yeah, man, listen, I think we first connect, I think 2018, 2019. You had Dylan on your team, yeah, Dylan was on the connection.
Speaker 3:Yeah, dylan was working for me. Shout out, dylan, he's doing really good things. Now he has, uh, and some, he has some interesting stuff in the works, but uh, yeah, so hired Dylan in 2019, I think, or 2018. And then, um, he connected me with you and he was like dude, this guy's crazy, he's doing all this crazy stuff in solar and, you know, making all this money and we need to get him on on our platform. At the time I was still a retriever and you know so. So that was that was great. And then we've just stayed friends ever since. Like, that's the beauty of this industry is, as long as people don't screw around, it's very, very easy to have really close, tight-knit friendships with people because for the most part, I think at a certain level, people are very likable in our space. It's just a matter of being able to harness that community and gather that trust yeah, 100.
Speaker 2:I feel like the cream rises to the top right. And you, I know you're very accessible, I'm accessible too, but you, you most form a moat, like you. We have bullshit detectors and I feel like a lot of people who are like the scam artists where they stay away from us, they know it's not even worth messing with us. It'll just tarnish their reputation, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly Kind of like what happened with that viral clip of John Castro. Yeah, going up to Timothy Lee, of all people, I mean that guy is Anybody getting into pay-per-call, do not work with that guy.
Speaker 2:Well, he's in private jets now. Apparently he's scamming people on private. Did you hear about that? No, yeah, I think the FAA is after this fucking guy. So, no, yeah, I think the FAA is after this fucking guy. So he's getting people like fake. He'll sell them tickets for a private jet, raise 60, 70 grand, and there's no jet. They go there and there's no jet. Yeah, that's his new thing. So he's gone on to a whole new. That's his new vertical, I guess.
Speaker 3:I don't even know what to say about that. I mean, there's always going to be scammers in the world. We do have to make moats, as you said, but he's one of those characters where you know the amount of people that have been touched by him. Scamming them is insane, and that's definitely one of those things. It's like it's very, very easy Once you break through. It's very, very easy to make money in this space, but you have to be careful, especially in the beginning, especially when you're green. You know you have to get into this and you have to have checks and balances and you have to make sure that you accept that you're going to lose money. First of all, there's no such thing as success without failure and, second of all, that guys like that are going to be swimming around and you have to like avoid them and figure out who the proper people to work with are in this industry.
Speaker 2:So I was going to ask you would that be? I want to go into your history. We were talking about how you got into it. But before we talk about that, who should not get into this industry? Because obviously you got to lose money. You're right, I lost a lot of money before I turned it around, but I don't think a lot of capital is a requirement. I think it helps Don't get me wrong but who should not enter this freaking industry?
Speaker 3:It's a good question. I mean, it depends on what portion of this industry you're talking about. If you want to get into it and become an account manager or you want to become an affiliate manager, you want to work in a network, you want to work at a company like Fluent or, you know, like any of these bigger entities out there, then you have to have kind of these capabilities of being a self-starter and you have to be able to, you know, to listen to your superiors and you have to be driven. But to be kind of like a you or a Carlos Corona or a Michael Walker or you know, or Ron Hart or any of these guys, it takes much more than that. You have to dedicate your entire life and your entire process to the thing that you're doing. You have to learn every single day. You have to learn something new.
Speaker 3:I feel lazy in comparison to the people that I know, Comparing to you, comparing to guys like Ron Hart, Carlos. Every time I see Carlos, he's learning something, he's doing something new, he's testing out. He's like yo man, look at this, I just figured out this AI bot for WhatsApp, or I figured out this other thing, or here's this new product that I'm building. You have to have that drive but, more importantly, you have to accept that you're going to be a student of the game for the rest of your life, because this industry is moving fast, and even more so with AI and all of these new advents and technology that are happening. The industry is moving at such a rate and such a breakneck speed that dude like we hired Vlad from my team. We hired him a while back and the guy knows more than most of the people that I know how old is Vlad? Vlad's 25.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so important to hire younger people.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because they know what they know about the AI. They're the guys that know about crypto. 10 years ago, you got to be with that generation alpha man. Yeah, for real.
Speaker 3:It. You got to be with that generation alpha man. Yeah, For real, it's honestly. It's one of those things it's like it's the things that I look for when I hire people is always look for these guys that are kind of a little bit more French, so they are reading a lot of books and they are always studying and they're always looking for that next thing the only way that you're going to succeed in the space, if you want to be at the top, is you have to continue to be a student of the game. That's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's great advice and I am too. That's why I go to all these different shows. I mean, go into a Philly or Dubai and I want to ask you your opinion on that and what you got out of it. But we saw Dimitri speak. It was his first speech ever. I didn't know that. He did a great job and we sat right next to he blew me away. The guy got me nervous because he's like listen, ai is evolving so fast that if you don't adapt, you're going to be out of business within six to nine months. And I'm like man, he's right because I feel like I'm way behind. So that inspired me. Like listen, I told my team start. You know we're doing some stuff, but let's speed it up here, let's not.
Speaker 3:It is and shout out Papa Dubai. Dimitri, he's a wonderful, wonderful human being and very knowledgeable, very, very knowledgeable. I mean that guy from the first time that I met him. I mean I met Brooklyn first. She's. I think she does all the business and everything for him. But Dimitri has been such an inspiration to me as well, and watching the stuff that he's now putting out as content on.
Speaker 3:Instagram has been very, very good, but watching him speak for the first time he was like a little bit nervous, a little bit jittery. But then, when he got into his own, I think he was talking about something that may not be the most popular topic and speaking to a crowd of people that are trying to make money and telling them hey, look like if you don't get with the program, if you're not going to do these things, you're going to be obsolete very, very quickly. That becomes an interesting topic of its own, and and and having that bravery that he had to speak in front of that group of people and kind of be like this is kind of doom and gloom, but it's a conversation that needs to be had. That's something that I respect a lot about him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he and he pulled it back the curtain. He, the slides were amazing. He was showing all sorts of numbers and stuff that really made you think the quotes, everything was so relevant. He put some good time and effort into it. And even him I mean, the guy probably doesn't have to work financially, he probably seems like he's doing really well, but he's got this thirst and hunger. I think that's what you're saying. If you're going to be in this industry, you have to have that thirst, that hunger, and not to stay complacent, because if you do, you're going to fall back. Your competition is going to overtake you. There's always going to be someone younger. Someone doesn't have to be younger. Someone has got that insatiable appetite that's going to get ahead of you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you have to continue to want, you can't have. You know, that's what separates humans from animals, is that we have goals and we have to achieve those goals and that next step is having that insatiable hunger where you're continually creating these new goals for yourself. You know, I know a lot of professional athletes, a lot of um, a lot of guys in the mma sphere and, uh, you know guys like bo nickel that I've spoken to in the past and like he blows me away, like he talks about how, like he was a geek out right in new york, I saw his big, I was amazing. Yeah, he spoke a geek out. He had that orange, um, the, the orange theory or whatever, and that was really cool.
Speaker 3:But, um, you know, and when you speak to him kind of behind closed doors and you ask him some questions, like about your success, like, dude, everybody says that it's hard work, etc. What is it really like? I actually um, somebody asked him that question at the uh orange bowl and uh, and he said, no, man, like it really is like, yeah, there's talent, whatever, but talent can only get you so far. It really is the hard work and it is about kind of not coasting on your and sitting on your laurels and and doing nothing. It's you know you've reached a certain point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I made a million dollars, or yeah, I made whatever that number is in reality. It's not about the money, but it is about the money. It's about continually having a hunger and being like, okay, well, this year I want to reach this target, or this month I want to reach this target. And then continually upping those targets, whether it be for personal growth, whether it be for financial growth, whether it be for mental health or whatever the case may be, you always have to have those next targets.
Speaker 3:And you know, I'm slowly kind of adapting that strategy to my life as well, because I did, to an extent, at my end of my tenure at Retriever, I did to an extent at at at my end of my tenure at retriever, I did, to an extent, kind of come to a point where I was like I'm pretty happy where I am and you know, like I can kind of relax and whatever. And and now I'm again uh and we'll talk about this obviously a little bit later into the podcast but now I'm again at a point where I'm like like I love being the stupidest guy in the room because I get to learn a lot and and uh, that's where I am now, and it's extremely exciting to be at that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, you got me thinking I have there's so many places I want to go. Based on what you just said, I guess, uh, let's go to how you started, how you get into the industry. You started in Toronto, is that right? Yeah?
Speaker 3:So so actually it's a funny story. So, uh, shout out, david Brooke. He uh, he took me for my 25th birthday, I believe. He took me to a restaurant where I met Jason Kay, who's the founder of Retriever. Prior to meeting Jason and kind of getting into the space, I was working in personal injury law for quite a while and then from personal injury law I transitioned into helping kids with neurological disabilities.
Speaker 3:But how it all started was I was working in personal injury law and I was just like a law clerk, you know, like helping out and whatever with files, and slowly I saw that there's always been this demand for more customers and there is no real way for junior law firms to get into this. They typically have to have, you know, some sort of referral source. And those referral sources are in some cases kind of questionable. Especially in Toronto. There's tow trucking and all these other things and rehabs and this is like there's like an entire we can have an entire hour long podcast about the insanity of personal injury law in Toronto and the mob and everything else that happens there. But I found that I am able to somehow receive these referrals and then I was able to make money by referring those cases out to lawyers. So you know, in a way, lead gen was always part of my life and and uh, and it just kind of slowly grew.
Speaker 3:So I started off in personal injury law. I became a settlement specialist. I was settling cases for, for a couple of different lawyers that I knew. Um, I wasn't a lawyer, but I was doing it in accident benefits, which is where I'm just able to negotiate prices with adjusters on the accident benefits claim. And then from there I transitioned to working with kids with disabilities after a few years, and that was primarily because, you know, we were winning large sums of money for people, for these children, in medical practice, but there was no therapy that was actually helping at least in Canada at the time, there was no therapy that was actually helping these kids. And so I ended up figuring something out.
Speaker 3:We founded a clinic called Revivo and worked there for about three and a half years or so, worked there for about three and a half years or so and then for my 25th birthday again I'm at this restaurant called Jacobs and really what ended up happening as we discussed this? I'm kind of like thinking back and remembering, but I really had kind of almost like a mental block or a limiter on where I thought I could go in my life and what I thought I could achieve. And then I made. I met uh David and uh David had nothing to do at the time with the industry and you'll see, um, that that kind of changed over time.
Speaker 3:But, um, he showed me a side of the world that I didn't know before. Like to me, the keg in Toronto is a restaurant that to me would be like the best steakhouse that I could ever go to and that's like steaks for like 50 bucks, you know. And then he takes me for my 25th birthday. He takes me to a restaurant where, where I look at the menu and like there's a thousand dollars steak and I'm like what the fuck?
Speaker 3:Like like now I look at it and I'm like, okay, that's a great business expense potentially, you know, but back then it was that's. I might cry when I think about that, but you know, back then a $50 steak, that was it, that was the limit. And so he takes me to this place and we may or may not have had some cannabis prior and I'm sitting there at the bar and I'm eating the steak and they have these big TVs in the front there and they're showing synchronized swimming and I don't know about you, but I've never fucking looked at synchronized swimming for longer than a few seconds, and then looking at it while stoned is like a mind-blowing experience.
Speaker 2:Well, I can see the beauty of it. Yeah, we have stoned. I mean it's like it's art.
Speaker 3:It's insane. It's insane, not that I've watched much of it afterwards, but for that specific moment in time that was a great experience within time. That was a great experience. And and so I'm sitting there watching this and and the guy sitting beside me is, uh, is, jason, and that's that's how we initially met.
Speaker 3:And, um, then, a few weeks later or something, I see him at another place and we just started communicating and he's like a very interesting character and you know, he was like six foot five and, you know, very highly intelligent and uh, we, we, we just hit it off and became friends and he saw that I was, um, pretty depressed, uh, working in the, in the industry that I was working in. And you know, he kind of explained to me that, yeah, I run a telephony company. I'm like, okay, cool, you're like you know, whatever phone in toronto, we have rogers and bell and whatever. I'm like, so you're doing something like that. He's like not really. And so we keep talking. And then, and whatever, I'm like, so you're doing something like that, he's like not really. And so we keep talking. And then one day we're talking and he just says he's like yeah, you know, I just like fired half of my staff and you know I'm not very happy right now, et cetera. And I took that as an opportunity and I said, listen, why don't you hire me? I don't have any experience in the space, but I have the drive and I know that I can do something. And so hired me. $65,000 Canadian my first year, so that's like I don't know, that's toy money, right. So it's like 40K a marathon or so.
Speaker 3:And for the first year and a half I'm sitting at a table panicking, my palms are sweating and I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm looking at these phone calls. And you know we had Assurance starting at the time and we had thatcom and we have a couple of big accounts. But you know I didn't understand the performance marketing space at all and it took me a little while to kind of get used to the technology. I started at first just by doing troubleshooting and kind of really just diving deep into that industry. I also didn't really have much sales experience at the time either, and so what I started doing was reading as many books as I could about sales, and that's what I'm talking about in terms of growth.
Speaker 3:Like, if you don't know anything about an industry. Dive in, ask as many questions as you can and read as many books as you can. I started by reading books like how to Win Friends and Influence People, the Like Switch, where you're talking about unconscious mirroring techniques, so like you're sitting, you know, with your fingers crossed, I'll sit with my fingers crossed and those mirroring techniques help in influencing how you're communicating with me, for instance. And then moving into books like the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fug by Mark Manson, and then Models and really Models became one of those books that kind of like it clicked in my head how to properly communicate with people through honesty, the name of the book is Models, models.
Speaker 3:Okay, so the book that really changed things for me from like how I communicate with people today is Models by Mark Manson Great book. Everybody should read it. Like, really, the funny thing is that it's a dating book, so it's it's it's meant to be. How do you attract women through honesty and vulnerability, for dating purposes, marriage purposes, et cetera. It's not about, like, how do you get laid. It's really about how to have a relationship, and and uh and how to act in that relationship.
Speaker 3:But in reality, what I took away from it there there was a chapter that talks about the first date experience and how you should go into it and the mindset that you should go in with.
Speaker 3:And what it says is like you know us as men when we go on a date, it's always, you know, I hope she likes me, I hope she likes me. But when you switch that mentality to I hope I like her, that changes things, because the butterflies go away and now you can have a conversation with this person because you're trying to find the things. You don't really necessarily not not care, but you don't assign as much value to whether this person likes you. You're just hoping that you like this person and and it kind of like shifts the, the power dynamic in that, uh, in that specific conversation and you know, applying that to business, there's really no difference, and I'm sorry for you know for cursing, but there's no difference. Let it fucking go, shobran. There's no fucking difference between fucking and sales. There's none. Exchanging money is a very, very intimate thing to do, and so is fucking.
Speaker 2:These are similar concepts, at least you know it's true, it's trust at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, concepts at least you know it's true trust at the end of the day, yeah, yeah, it shows extreme trust, right? So, um, so when I, when that concept kind of clicked in my head, I started thinking about you know, well, I hope I like these people, so I so. I remember I came to my first um I think it was leads con was my first conference in this industry and I literally went up to every booth and started speaking to every single person I could talk to and just try and get as much information out of them as possible. But again, from the perspective of like.
Speaker 3:Like it's not about me trying to sell something to you, it's about me trying to get as much information out of you about what you're doing and then trying to create these kind of patterns in my head. Like, if you've ever used lucid chart, my brain functions like a lucid chart. I'm trying to create these boxes and then create arrows that connect those boxes together and that kind of gives me an understanding of the world around me. And in lead gen that became instrumental to me. And at one point I remember meeting Leo D'Anconia. He had a shout out Leo, yeah, he filmed here with us too.
Speaker 2:In the same time.
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, he lives in Miami right now, right, so, so, um, so I really liked leo and he was just getting started. We got on the phone call and this young kid telling me about you know how. He left the call center and now he's doing arbitrage and auto insurance and I don't remember what platform he was using or if he was using any platform at the time, but I remember saying I'm I'm like cool, I know somebody that's purchasing phone calls, so why don't I connect you with the person purchasing those calls? I didn't say, hey, use my product.
Speaker 3:I said, let me just connect you, yeah you added value to them, yeah all I did was add value and in how to Win Friends and Influence People. There's a story about a lady that drops off a hitchhiker at his house during a storm and and those, and she never asked for anything in return and those people couldn't handle the idea that they had no way of repaying her after she had left because they didn't take her name, they had no idea who she was, and that creates a sort of power that that that's almost impossible to replicate. So you know, um James Van Elzweig, who you know very well as well, he has has a mantra which is a candle loses nothing by sharing its flame, and I love that mantra. Like to me, that's that today. That's what I follow and that's what I've been following for a long time, unconsciously, but when I heard it like clicked in my head, I was like this is it, this is this is exactly how I've been acting and, um, so that's what I did.
Speaker 3:At first it was with leo. It was hey, man, let me connect you with all these guys that I know are buying. There were also networks, and you know that network effect where call starts at $10 or 15 and goes to 20, 25, 30, reaches a buyer at like 40 or $50. And, uh, you know, seeing that network was really cool. But also I was then able to, over time, kind of direct a bunch of that business towards retriever as well and grow the company by creating a bunch of different referral partners for each other. I didn't ask for anything in return. I just did it because I was trying to create this kind of network effect where these people now wanted to use my technology because it's like, well, stan isn't making anything out of it. Why don't we just, you know, throw that campaign on retriever and let's oh well, oh hey, there's this feature that retriever has, or there's this other thing that retriever has that that's really cool and we should be using, right? So this is like I think I made my first sale for retriever in the end of 2017, after a year of just nothing, you know, like, like. Thank you, jason, for allowing me the time to, to, to, to grow into my own and to be able to do that.
Speaker 3:But you know, that was the formative years were up to 2018, where my formative years were for about two years. I was kind of terrified that I was going to fail and burn out and not be able to do anything. And then, finally, that first sale hits and then it's a different world completely, because after that you gain momentum and you start building, you start getting confidence and you become like the sales machine almost over time. And you know, and all I'm doing is my office was 10 kilometers away from where I live. So I think, like I don't know, seven miles, seven miles or something. I think it's a 10 out there. It's nice. No, 10, 10 kilometers.
Speaker 3:So, like seven, I'm like thinking canadian numbers, yeah, even though I spend most of my time in the U S? Um and so but it was on one street. So there was a street in Toronto called Bathurst and literally one street, but it would take me about an hour and a half one way to go from home to the office and to go from the office to home, and so all I did every single day on the way back and forth from the office to home for years was listen to audio books. Yeah, and I listened to a ton of them. My Audible was packed and that was instrumental in my gaining knowledge and confidence and understanding and kind of like understanding my inner voice and understanding how to speak to people and how to treat people and, honestly, over time, you know, learning from you and learning from the other greats in our space, how you guys function and how you guys talk to each other was also very, very, very important in my personal growth.
Speaker 2:There is a new endeavor called Roofs in the Box. It's just man from day one, it's taken off.
Speaker 4:When I first started getting in the roofing industry, what was happening was my fixed costs were always there, and so for me I was looking at how can we, kind of one, save on these costs?
Speaker 4:And then, two, how do I not lay people off during down times, but also maybe even the ability to pocket more money during the slow season or even the peak season. Since we've done this before, like with our Legion companies where we have virtual staffing and from Argentina or Columbia, I'm like, why don't we do the same thing in the construction business? Now, once we figured it out, we reduced their fixed costs by 70%, and so now during the downtime they have real seasoned veteran type of players, but during the uptime they pocket. 70% of their operational costs are now going back in their pocket, and then, when it's time to scale, you have the back end prepared, already ready to go to help them lift off. Depending on what state you're in, you're averaging about 12.5% on what you pay out on taxes, insurance, like all the different insurances that you have to pay out, right, so, yeah, you don't have to pay out unemployment, you don't have to pay out bike insurance, medicare, social Security the things that business owners have to eat.
Speaker 1:Roofs to Box is not just limited to roofing or home improvement companies you can use.
Speaker 4:We use it for IT, we use them internally for data cells, for hygiene, for analytics. It doesn't even matter what the vertical is Like business in a box at the end of the day, pretty much yeah, you remind me of myself when I first got into sales running call centers 2005, 2007.
Speaker 2:There was no podcast back then, so I'd get these CDs. What was it? Andrew Carnegie, Tony Robbins, and I would listen. I'd drive 30, 45 minutes, but someone once said, man, they made a joke in the call center, like Dave's got a university on wheels. That's what it was. I used my time. You hit traffic injuries, a lot of traffic, Fuck it. Use that to learn, man.
Speaker 3:I didn't graduate high school so so that was literally little there, bro. That's great yeah. Yeah, I never got it. I got my GED, like later on I had to drop out because my family was having a bunch of financial trouble and I had to work a bunch of jobs and make sure that we kept our place and whatnot. But yeah, we had our hardships and I mean that was instrumental to me, like those two years of driving and listening to audiobooks, like I listen of deeds changed my life oh, you have to do that because if you want you get that edge.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know. Think about how many hours you you probably had hundreds of hours that you listen. You know malcolm gladwell outliers he's got that book and he talks about the success. What, how do you get a professional athlete has? They have 10 000 hours of practicing, so you have to have that 10 000 hour mark. We might have 10 000 hours of self-development. We know have thousands of hours. We're way ahead in the average person, you and me. But think about if you had to quantify how many hours you actually listen. Those are the formative years that laid the foundation for where you're at now.
Speaker 3:So you give me goosebumps because I'm remembering, like when I got, I calculated, you know, I work eight hours a day, 10 hours a day at Retriever for years and I remember reaching that 10,000 hour mark and I was just kind of like I had like my own little private celebration. I was kind of happy about it because I got to a point where I didn't really have to be in front of a computer to help anybody. They would just call and I'd be like, okay, well, you know, you hit on the top left side, you click on publisher. You, you know, you, you, you fill out the publisher ID and then first name, last name, click create on the bottom right, go to buyers.
Speaker 3:I can still do the same thing today, you know, obviously, like it's now ingrained in me, but uh, that was actually one of the criteria when, when I started hiring people and I hired Dylan, he was, uh, he was my first uh hire from like a sales perspective. I thought I, I sat him down and I was like, let me explain this to you. And then, and then then, uh, okay, well, you do it now. Yes, and that's it. I kind of like speed, run them through that entire concept and see how long it takes them to retain information, because retaining information in our space is extremely important it is, it is.
Speaker 2:So I don't know if you feel comfortable talking about it, but we were, uh, when we were I don't know, it was on a way back from dubai. You talked about your hiring methodology, which I thought was fascinating. You're going to talk about that. This is.
Speaker 3:This is non-conventional here so I've said this in private, I've never said this publicly, but you have to be able to be, because, again, like I said before, models taught me that there's no difference between between fucking and sales and making money right, so you have to be an individual that has the characteristics necessary to be able to get laid Like. That's it, like that's one of the criteria is you have to be able to do that Like. You have to be able to because you know I mean now it's not the same because we have Tinder and we have like all these dating apps and whatnot. But you know, at a certain point, like I remember being a kid and like trying to approach girls and I was like nervous, and you know I was, you know, shaky and whatnot, and and uh, and sales is the same. I remember the first time I come up to somebody at a conference and I'm like nervous and shaky and I'm like shit, same thing. So that's kind of where that philosophy came from.
Speaker 3:But it's more than that. Right, like it's. Obviously you have to, you have to be able to be like that, but you also, um, you have to have some sort of confidence, uh, in yourself and in your abilities. You have to be able to retain information really well. You have to be able to uh communicate to the needs of the consumer by really just listening to them, like it's not not about talking, it's about listening. Sales, proper sales isn't about talking, it's about listening to what that person needs and then taking the product that you have and kind of applying those concepts to that product or to their needs.
Speaker 2:Rather, yeah, I'm reading a book. I got a great story. I met like a power broker in New York City. This guy was responsible for getting the World Cup to the Tri-State area and when I had dinner with him it was with a bunch of other people. We're trying to get some campaign going. Never got going, but it was good to meet this guy. Anyway, very connected. He's like been known to top people there for decades and decades.
Speaker 2:He recommended a book that we read, called what Things they Don't Teach About Harvard. I bought that book. I never read it but I started reading it. I'm like day three into it. And he talks about you gotta be able to listen and listen aggressively and observe, right, cause there's subtleties. You'll, you'll pick up on people and, uh, it's so true, people forget that, right, I think. And he says we're always like in a in a rush to talk and get our thoughts out there, but if you listen and you'll get people will sell them, you'll know, they'll teach you how to sell them is where it comes down to and I think we forget that sometimes I agree.
Speaker 3:I agree. There's another really good book. It's called um, surrounded by idiots, and also a very unconventional name for a book, but it speaks to the different categories of people that are out there, like, for instance, you know, so there's a few colors that are. It's a color coordination between personality types and uh and and and color. So Great name for a book, too Fantastic. It's surrounded by idiots, surrounded by psychopaths and surrounded by narcissists. Those are the three books from that chain, but surrounded by idiots, specifically Um, you know, you have red.
Speaker 3:Red are guys that wake up in the morning and they're like go, go, go, and they're on the treadmill and they're doing all this stuff. Are you making money? You know, like those guys, that's you right. And then there's guys that are or you know, or girls, or anybody that you know. They're yellow, and yellow are what I, at the very least, like to consider myself, because I don't necessarily prepare or think before I speak, but somehow 90% of the time, call it, I'm able to say the right thing that allows me to kind of get ahead, and that's what yellow is. It's this like intrinsic ability to communicate and and and be um relatable, but also be able to communicate the right thing to somebody. Then you have blue, and blue are analytical people.
Speaker 3:So there are the people that like, sit there and they really really study, shout, shout out my mom, you know, I'll tell her something. And she'll be like, well, you know, well, let me like look into it. And then she'll like read 10,000 pages about something and then be like, no, you're an idiot and you know. Thanks, mom. But uh, and then you have green, and green are people that are your essential workhorses, that will spend the time. They don't really care if they're getting paid more than somebody else, they just want to spend their time doing the thing that they're good at without really being bothered. They just want to keep the peace and they want to spend their time working. And so that's another consideration when you're hiring people, because you don't want to have an organization of just like reds, you know, imagine your company is just 10. Oh no, it's not good.
Speaker 2:It's going to be terrible. Yeah, we fuck things up, man, exactly, we're out of business.
Speaker 3:Or a bunch of me's, like I'll be dreaming about ideas and things and I'll never get anything done. Like I need people behind me that can support me or people in front of me. You know, I like to lead from the front, but I do need people that will support me, because I have 10,000 ideas a day and you know some. Most of them are dumb, but one of them is really good, you know. But I need to be able to also execute on those ideas Right. So we need a balance of these types of different individuals that will be analytical, that will question like shout out Phil. You know from the current CEO of Retriever. He's extremely analytical and he was the voice of reason in a lot of ways where me and him would like bounce ideas off of each other and be like dude, this is so great. And he'd be like oh yeah, you know, maybe, maybe not Like, maybe we should think about it another way. So that balance in an organization is extremely important.
Speaker 2:It's huge. I was going to ask you that with regard to that how do you know when to give in? Like you might have an idea you think is amazing. Your personal life type is a little different. We're similar, but you're all different too. But, like, how do you know when to give in, where you might be so passionate about an idea? But like someone like Phil my partner, Ed, is like that too.
Speaker 3:We're very similar to me it's a feeling, right, Like if I really truly feel about something very strongly and that feeling doesn't seem to go away. It's like the Marie Kondo method, you know, with clothing, right Like you touch it and you love it or you don't. If I start getting pushback on an idea and it's something where you know, like yeah, you know you have a point, et cetera, and I start thinking about it, like yeah, maybe this is dumb, you know, then I'll say that, right, like it's, it's being honest with yourself, right, because you can be passionate about something, but you know you shouldn't be stubborn about it. There's a big difference between being stubborn and being passionate. So, so, passion great, stubbornness, great.
Speaker 3:In some cases, you want to be stubborn If you, you know you're starting in this industry and you want to make money and you've lost some money. You know you want to, you want to be able to push through those, uh, those pain points in order to get to success on the other side. But but, uh, if you have an individual such as yourself and you should consider yourself extremely lucky to have a partner like that but somebody that's able to balance out those feelings and be that individual for you, then that's absolutely incredible. Like listen to that person because their opinion is worth its weight in gold.
Speaker 2:And I would say too, if you're our industry is very diverse, so you have like one man shops you have people who have dozens, not hundreds, of people on their team. But I would say, if you're someone that's one, two, three people and you know, maybe you don't have a partner get a mentor, a business mentor. That'll help you kind of see what's going on, cause if you just rely on yourself, you're not, you're not going to. You're not going to always have the, but you might. You might be able to get from point A to point B, but to get to point Z you're going to need a supporting cast of characters.
Speaker 3:I remember I think it was, uh, 2019, 2018 to 2019. I met Drew Thorne Thompson. He was a sales guy for Invoca. Is he at Pipes? He's at Pipes now, Okay yeah, he does like a bunch of different things.
Speaker 3:But at the time he was at Invoca or he had just left Invoca and I remember flying to meet him in California and I'm like this young, impressionable, you know young Stan, and like I rent the car and I drive. He's in Santa Barbara or something like it and I fly into LA and I drive to meet him. It's like this cool dude and he's like he has horses and lives in like on a fucking crazy property and we go sit down by the beach and have tacos and we're talking about life and about outlook on business and sales. And I'm like, motherfucker, this guy is so fucking cool. And I asked him point blank. I'm like, do you mind being my mentor? Because I would love to be able to question you and pick your brain and learn certain concepts from you.
Speaker 3:You know, at a certain point you know I love Drew to death. He's a fantastic human being. At a certain point, you, it's not like I outgrew him or anything like that, but you know we get busy and whatever, but, um, I've always valued his opinions and his insights and he was that guy for me. And then eventually that became James, because when I met James uh, the first time I met him was after uh, actually you introduced him to me initially but you showed me, I think, a clip uh of geek out and in that clip he, he, he talks about these things. And I've been thinking about at that point, I've been thinking for a while about starting an event as like a retriever event and you know, I'm listening to him speak. I'm like I hate how much I like him, like he's saying all the things that I would say and he's saying them so much better than I'll ever say them. So I do consider James, even though we haven't spoken much in recent times just because both of us are busy. He's running a bunch of stuff and so am I. When I do get a chance to talk to him, I savor every moment because I learn a lot by communicating with him as well.
Speaker 3:So those mentors are extremely important and I think in most cases, you know, I haven't the famous people, the famous, you know, relatively speaking, the famous people that I've met in our industry kind of the cool kids club of our industry right, if you approach any one of them, I don't think that any of them would ever refuse to have a conversation or refuse to be that person, because to an extent, it's a massive amount of you know. It's very flattering to have somebody approach you and and say, hey, man, you know, I'd love for you to be my mentor. But also people in the space that are successful do tend to want to share their knowledge and and everybody should go out and find somebody that is kind of like, like boy, I want to be like you when I grow up. You know like now it's somebody else. It's very interesting and we'll talk about this in a bit.
Speaker 3:But but uh, um, yeah, uh, james became that person for me for sure, on on a lot of different levels. He's just a cool dude yeah, like he's fucking fantastic and like I want to be like that. It was influential. My growth too. Yeah, exactly Like he. He gave you your start together, man.
Speaker 2:Try to learn how to manage campaigns or blow up campaigns with them, you know. And, by the way, we have a. We did a podcast with him, like a year ago. Yeah, that's right, guys. If you haven't seen that one, you got to watch it. That was one of the better ones we did. That was amazing. I forgot which episode it was.
Speaker 3:That was before you knew that he was Retriever CMO.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's all good man, that was a good one man. He went in, he got into psychology and like he went deep. He wasn't talking about stuff like vulnerabilities and fears and this like stuff you wouldn't expect. He's a big guy. He was like 6'3", yeah, and very well known in the industry, very well respected. But to hear someone like that, like not expose us but to talk about their vulnerabilities like man, that was amazing. A lot of people got a lot out of that. Talking about his you know one of his best meetings talking about mentors like his psychotherapist is like a mentor because it helps him go deep inside, right? So a lot of people won't talk about that. I mean it's, it's important.
Speaker 3:Therapy is important. I recently went through a breakup after six years with the, with the same person, and she's great and really it's kind of my fault for for the way, uh, the way things ended. But uh, you know, now I have been talking to somebody, uh, from like a perspective of like trying to understand my mistakes and and and figuring things out. It's like one of those coaching people Right and uh, um, it's been, it's been very fruitful to kind of get a perspective because, you know, I have a bunch of friends and I can have very deep conversations with, again, guys like David, guys like Dylan and Boris and you know guys that everybody knows in our industry. But it's another thing to be able to to have that conversation with a stranger that can, um, sum it up differently than somebody that you know many, many years, like, yeah, it's a very, very different thing. So it's very, very important to to take care of your mental health, especially in our industry oh yeah, because the swings, man, they're freaking crazy.
Speaker 2:Have you seen me? How many chances see me, man we have six months ago, like everything was going wrong. What the fuck are we doing, man? Am I gonna be in business in three months, man? Like you know what the hell to do? And then all of a sudden you're around the right people and then things turn around, but it's. You could be right here for years and years and years and all of a sudden something happens. Legislation boom. You get like really quickly and a lot of people they don't. They don't understand that man is what it comes down to. So yeah, I mean for me it's helped me out mentors, people in the industry, therapists. I mean that's helped me get through that and now now we're doing great again. But I can't emphasize, I know I think some of the people I don't know they get they feel embarrassed, whatever, but it's out there for you. Take advantage of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and especially take advantage of that network effect. Become close to people that you believe are reaching the goals or have achieved the goals that you're trying to achieve. That is you know. I recently met this guy, sean. He runs a very interesting campaign. You know him as well. He's the guy with the largest porta potty campaign.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that guy's awesome. By the way, we had a blast in Dubai with him, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I was talking to him and I'm like, dude, like what? Like so is this, is this, is this what you do? And he's like yeah, but I also run an investment fund where I purchase companies that are doing at least $150 million in EBITDA. Yeah, that's a big number yeah what. And so I started talking to him. So you know, I've been taking bits and pieces of knowledge.
Speaker 2:He's a great guy, he's willing to talk to you. He's not sharing like a little owning for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, but there's a lot of guys at that point, especially in investment banking and whatnot. They're just going to be like yeah, okay, you remind me I'm going to be in New York tomorrow.
Speaker 2:I got to hit him up. You should. If he's there, I don't know he travels so much. He might even be. He travels more than you and I. Yeah, it's combined, I think, yeah.
Speaker 3:He travels more than for Shirley.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would say some. You know I'm going to go into something too. You may have forgotten about this. That's what I like about these shows is that it's fun. You take a trip down memory lane. You may have forgotten about this, but we know, both know Anthony Sandrea. He's a legend in our space. He exited his company, I think two, three years ago, for a lot tens of millions of dollars. I I mean, it's probably got there $70 million was the number right. And I was going through something similar. I was, about two years ago, ready to exit. I was in the middle of it and I was looking at advice for people and I talked to him because he'd been around the block and he was. He introduced me to investment bakers. Like the guy was really freaking. I was amazed that he was willing to do it.
Speaker 3:No problem, you know one of the most genuine people I've ever met in my life. Honestly, I make it a point whenever I'm in Las Vegas, especially in between conferences. If I can find, you know, even a day to have an hour with Anthony and just sit down and chat with him, you know like it'll be, like he's an early riser, so it'll be like 8 am. He's like bro, yeah, you know like yeah, man, let's get together. And then it's like bro, yeah, you know like yeah, man, let's get together. And then it's like come meet me at 8 am at this like grocery store and we'll sit down. They'll be in shorts, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're like in Swiss. Yeah, giant pants no longer with McLaren, now he's a Tesla driver.
Speaker 3:Oh really Shout out, anthony. But yeah, so a very, very big life decision. And uh, I, I was um, you know, I was thinking about leaving retriever and and moving on and moving to a different space, and I was scared and and I I sat down with him and I'm like dude, like here's my ideas, here's where I am, and and uh, he spoke to me and gave me some really good wisdom and some really good advice. And you know, whenever I have an idea, like credit to that dude man, because I can call him, my ADHD will flare up and you know I'll have this idea.
Speaker 3:I'll be like yo man, what can I talk to you? I have like a really good idea about something cool that you know might be of interest and so far, like, none of those have come to. But he will listen to me every single time and try and give me some advice and wisdom and he's always going to listen Him and Josh Snow as well. He's. You know they were partners in that business before and you know I saw Josh recently and he's doing some really cool stuff and you know he's also one of those guys like, if you can catch him, you can gain a lot of wisdom out of listening to him speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and where I was going to go with that is that I think you're the reason why he's willing to do it and he's. He's a cool guy, he'll, he's, he's very forthcoming and willing to spend his time with people. It doesn't matter, right? But he had told me during that experience that you know, you got to talk to Stan. Stan was he's the man he really helped me during this process. I you connected him with a bunch of people too. So he said that and I'd known you and I had done some stuff prior to that. But when I heard about that because you know, exiting and investing, that's a whole different world, that's a whole different level so I was like I didn't understand that kind of experience. But so I think that's why you helped him during that.
Speaker 3:It's a value exchange at the so the philosophy is walk softly and carry a big stick right. So the most important things that I've accomplished, or the most important deals that I've made, are ones that I don't talk about and that I kind of keep quiet because those are just for me. Those are things that I want to kind of keep to myself. They're like my little cookie jar moments that you know I'm feeling down or something happens. Or you know, jocko Welnick says you know, whenever anything bad happens, good, more time to improve, more time to move on, more time to get better gear to get whatever.
Speaker 3:You know he's a Marine and whatnot. But I also believe that wholeheartedly that you know I need to have these like private moments and private wins. I need to have these private moments and private wins and I'm very, very happy about the ones that I've had because I've been able to help a lot of people and to me that's invaluable because it created lifelong relationships and friendships that are, if one day something happens, sure I can ask for favors as well, but just seeing those people be successful and happy is the biggest reward to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's true. I mean that's why you're very I'm so glad to have you on here, because you're very well respected, you're very well known. I mean, when you say you've been in the industry for eight, nine years, it really feels like decades, right, I mean, it's all that so much in the past eight years. It'll do that to you, man. I mean honestly, but but no, that's, that's a thing and it's a great thing. So I get. There's so much stuff I want to talk to you about and I guess I don't know, maybe we may man now's appropriate time to talk about this. Like what do you think is the future of legion? Where's this world going to? It's a lot of changes. Ai's here and we're just in dubai. There's so much stuff going on there. Like what, what are you seeing and how, how do people serve, not just survive, survive and thrive, prosper in this environment?
Speaker 3:I think that the name of the game is disruption and, um, you know, I'll I'll take the time to to tell you about some disruption that I'm part of now and, um, you know, I mean again, mitri was right when he says that that there's a lot of risk out there and if you're not learning and if you're not doing the stuff that Samar is doing, for instance, with AI, or Ron Hart or Michael Walker, like he's been posting some cool shit that he's been dealing with and you know I follow these guys and I kind of watch them from the sidelines and I'm very, very interested in what they're doing. I recently left Retriever. I left and at first I decided, you know, maybe I'm going to just consult for a bunch of different companies, but during kind of the last part of my time at Retriever, I met a very, very special guy. His name is Tyler Reese. Tyler sold his company for a very large amount of money to Humana. His company was called Innovative Financial Group, IFG. He had the largest Medicare agency in the United States like bigger than anybody else that you can imagine and he started looking at after he sold. He started looking at the inefficiencies that he saw in the space, in the call center space, in the compliance space, in the policy signing space and quoting and enrollment reporting space and kind of all over the map. And he said, well, why isn't there something that kind of becomes one omnichannel platform that can disrupt the space and can create something interesting? And so, as of um, as of this month, I I joined uh as chief strategy officer, company called enroll. Here I believe that we are the disruptor of of this industry.
Speaker 3:Uh, I believe that what we've gathered, aside from just the technology, is the knowledge of the people that are on the team. You can't get any better than Tyler from the perspective of an agency owner that sold a business to Humana. I mean, if you've ever gone through Humana's compliance, which put Phil on suicide watch for a while, you know he a special character, he's a special guy, he's he's like the biggest family guy I've ever met in my life. Like we're sitting here today and and we were supposed to be here until uh thursday, but yesterday I was like, yeah, you know, I miss my family, I just want to go home, so we're leaving tomorrow instead, instead of on thursday. And I respect the crap out of that because, like there aren't many people that are willing to do that, people will sacrifice everything aside from business. And he does the opposite. He sacrifices business for family to an extent not not in the way that like anything negative happens, but he'd rather work from home and see his kids and see his wife than than otherwise.
Speaker 3:But his knowledge in the industry is incredible. He gathered under him guys like Josh and Ryan who have been partners with him in Innovative Financial Group and he hired Brandon Clay as our CEO, who has over 20 years of industry experience in Medicare, on kind of the other side of the Medicare policy side not on the sales side from like the paper call perspective, but on the other side and that's extremely instrumental. And that man has so many interesting strategies as CEO that I don't think I I've known a proper CEO until I met him. He impresses the. He impresses me like crazy and you know I kind of look at him like man. If I ever become ceo I want to be like him, like I want to be that kind of guy because his storytelling ability, the way he posts on linkedin, the things that he does behind the scenes obviously I can't talk about a lot of it, but you know the things that he does behind the scenes and how he does them is phenomenal. And then the tech team that we've gathered with uh, with nico and team and nico and tim uh and the rest of the team, they were able to build this fantastic software that does.
Speaker 3:We have a dialer product. We have a reporting product for affiliates. We have for affiliates from the perspective of, for the agencies that are using our product, to be able to see proper values. We have a commissions product, which is extremely complicated and I don't know it well yet, but it allows for calculating commissions for agents directly. We have an AI product for compliance that listens to the phone calls, gets rid of the PII information and scores based on the compliance of the agent on the phone whether they said the right things. There's 25 questions that every carrier asks in Medicare, for example, and you have to answer those 25 questions as you're communicating with a consumer. So this tool scores for that compliance and that varies and some of the agencies get really, really shocked when they start seeing that you know they were thinking they were running a great shop and then suddenly they see that their compliance rating is like 25%, they're like, wow, well, we need to.
Speaker 3:You know, we need to work on that and then we have um, a product that we'll be rolling out, which is an enrollment platform as well. So those Medicare agents sitting on the platform will actually be able to uh, to allow for enrollments. Now, from the perspective of pay-per-call, the reason this is disruptive and very exciting is because obviously you know myself and a lot of the guys on the team we know who the originating publishers are and a lot of these agencies don't, and they'll fall into kind of the mistakes of purchasing calls from people that they shouldn't. So by working with EnrollHere, a publisher, instead of having 20 or 30 different endpoints to send phone calls to and having to make those decisions, enrollhere will actually make a decision based on a bunch of different variables and, again through one phone number, send that phone call to one of the 20 or 30 or 40 or however many agencies we have on the platform.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 3:And, to give you an idea, we've grown so insanely. I mean, during it we started the company prior to me leaving Retriever. The company started in AAP and they were doing about 7,000 paid phone calls. Uh, now, outside of AAP, it's in the 20,000 range. So you know, so the growth is unreal and and it's extremely exciting and kind of scary because again I I find myself being the stupidest guy in the room. You know, chief officer, you think, oh, yeah, you know the world. It's kind of like when you grow up and you're like, oh, I'm an adult now, and then you're like I know nothing.
Speaker 2:Levels.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, there's levels to it. There's levels, and this product is one of those things where I've now reached a new level, where I'm learning a bunch of new things from the insurance perspective, but, but also the product is teaching me a lot, but also the people there are teaching me a lot, and, and I think, uh, I think, originating publishers in our industry, guys like Abe and Hagen, you know, um, I don't want to mention a lot of names because then people are going to go to them, but if you're an originating publisher, if you're a person that actually generates your own phone calls, you're not a network but you're actually generating your own calls. And the reason I say that is because networks are fine and great. The difference is that that, um, publishers, originating publishers have control over the creative. I want to work with you, so message me, email me, linkedin me, whatever. I want to work with people that actually generate their own media buying, because they are the invaluable lifeblood of the paper call space. So you know, we want to make their lives easier by giving them a single phone number, or maybe two phone numbers that will reach 40, 50, 60, 100 different agencies and thousands of different agents. So that's if you want to talk about disruption in the space. That's kind of a bombshell Enroll here is going to disrupt the industry in the pay-per-call space.
Speaker 3:Other than that, you know it was Anthony Paluzzi asked me, he messaged me and he's like hey, I want to get like a quote from you about what's going to happen in the industry and this is prior to. You know, all of us celebrating the one-to-one went away. But I said, you know, the industry is kind of cleaning itself up and we're getting less of the riffraff and and better quality calls and there's more intent and LTVs are going up and, you know, costs of acquisition are kind of going down in a way, or at the very least they're. They're now following the rate of uh of of the success, right. So so what I see happening in 2025 and onwards is I see a more educated consumer, but I also see a more educated um, more technical um affiliate uh, because because the others that aren't, they're just going to fall to the wayside there. There is no way to Dimitri's point. There is no way that you're going to have an organization of like a hundred people and you're not going to have like a bunch of prompt engineers that are geniuses at prompting chat, gpt or claude or any of the other solutions and creating the necessary tools, because I mean, you're not going to compete with somebody if you're making two, three creatives a day. You're not going to compete with samara who's doing, you know, a couple hundred creatives a day, like it's just not going to happen. So the opportunity and the breadth of opportunity is only increasing.
Speaker 3:And the other thing I wanted to mention is you know, when I started in the industry, I started going after traditional agencies and those traditional agencies. When you speak to them, you talk about yeah, you know, sign a ten thousand dollar retainer and pay for the media, buy and, and we're going to make sure that you get a lot of traffic, yay, and then the traffic results on like $40 of calls, not of pay-per-call value, but of just phone calls, right, so a month, which is nothing. It's like I don't know 10 calls a day or something. So if you're a performance marketer, try and go the route of competing with traditional agencies, because they're not going to be able to compete with the mentality that you have, which is a result-driven mentality. If you're going to go to a brand and say, hey, instead of paying me a $10,000 retainer. Let's make a partnership. I'll sacrifice my money and I'll try and make something happen for you. And let's deal in sales rather than deal in branding, so to speak. And branding is important, obviously, but it has to be both. It has to be kind of the dual, hybrid mentality.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of interesting campaigns out there. Home services is growing like crazy, like home services is becoming a massive, massive vertical and there's a lot of funding that's going into that. Huge amounts here, huge amounts. Medicare, aca, final expense. Those are kind of evergreen verticals that will continue existing, no matter the legislation. I remember in 2018, there was legislation coming out and it was ah, yeah, yeah, that's it. Medicare is done and you saw a bunch of people leave, but then that left more room to play for others. You know, and you have at the top of our industry of guys like Bilal and guys like Manny and Mitri and all these different like weapons. They're assassins in our industry and they will roll with the punches because, I mean, you have to adapt right, Like that's all part of the evolution of our space. So don't be scared of legislation, be cautious, but try and roll with the punches and just be aggressive with how you're doing it.
Speaker 2:I love that. You said roll with the punches. I think that's one thing. A lot of people I think immediate buyers, affiliates or whatever you want to call them even business people sometimes it can be very short-term thinking and they want to hop from the money. They're used to living this way and then the money goes here like fuck, I got to get back. So they jump into something else. Keep jumping around rather than roll with the punches. Stick it out that everything will wash, the other groups will wash themselves out. Then you rise to the top. That's what happened with us in solar back in 2019. All these guys started going out of business. We stuck around, rolled the punches and boom, we're like a vacuum that we, you were the leader, we were the leader, right, and then that let us rise.
Speaker 2:But speaking of going a step further, speaking of Manny Zuccarelli, we're going to have him on the show one day soon. I can't wait for that one. But we interviewed him. We did a short interview with him at Legion World. He went to Washington DC. He's trying to affect policy change. He's getting in the heads of the Congress. People, a lot of people in the industry, are like, oh fuck, I'm not meeting those people, fuck those guys. He's actually getting to know them. Talking about how to win friends and influence people. He's trying to influence policy, which is amazing, right. So I think that's the other. We talked about levels. That's the other way of thinking and like hey, let me. This industry has been good to me. Yeah, it's washing people out. It's going to affect me short term, but how do I make this? How do I benefit from this long term?
Speaker 3:What he's doing is he's not being reactionary, he's actually being active. Right Like reactionary is when one-to-one became a consideration, we had two different alliances uh pop up that that were fighting it, and you know imc was extremely successful in fighting against yeah, shout out to them, because I remember when I didn't think that was.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm like man, everyone's like, ah, they had like a one percent chance of fucking. They made it. One percent chance is better than zero. They, they, they rescued you, they rescued everybody man.
Speaker 3:They rescued everybody. So, you know, shout out to those guys. Excuse me, um, but manny is definitely being more active and not reactive, and that's great to see. And I think, as our industry becomes more legitimized, we're going to see more of that right Over the years. I mean the wild, wild west of 2016,. 2015, paper call versus today. You know it's a different world. I mean, I've seen it. Obviously I don't want to, I can't discuss it, but you know, being part of retriever, I was able to see everybody's phone calls. I saw what people were doing and it was insane. And and now, over time, like, look like we have, uh, Dave and Leo created true call.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:Right and and and true call is like you talk to most publishers and you mentioned the word true call, it's like violence, because nobody wants to show the real creatives right. And it's like when I talk to publishers about working with the role here, I tell them so I'm like dude, like okay, like I understand you have some ideas, show me the true creative. Okay, because, because I know it's not going to be the creative that you're sending the media to, there's no way. But if you show me the true creative and it's not going to be the creative that you're sending the media to, there's no way. But if you show me the true creative and it's not too crazy, then yeah, okay, let's work together, let's figure something out.
Speaker 3:But these guys, you know, eventually the industry will wake up to the fact that you can do an API lookup of Facebook Marketplace and find the FBCL ID that corresponds with a specific ad set or group, etc. You can do the same thing with Google, right? And I really believe that eventually the buyers are going to catch on to this and they're going to start accepting Truecall as their solution, and it's going to cause a lot of people a lot of pain, a lot of people a lot of pain but at the same time there's a balance here, because you cannot have a non-aggressive ad, because you know it's almost like a necessary evil, like I remember a story of a Medicare buyer that called one of my customers back in the day. I was like are you out of your mind? You have what kind of creative that's the creative that you're using. Shut it off On Monday Because we really like it, because the CPA is really good. You know the cost of the acquisition was like $100 for Medicare or something.
Speaker 2:It was incredible. Yeah, it was great.
Speaker 3:By the way, enroll here is cost of acquisition that we have, that's selling to our customer base, is currently between 80 to $160.
Speaker 2:That's insane. That's like ACA numbers.
Speaker 3:It's nuts.
Speaker 2:Crazy.
Speaker 3:It's crazy stuff, but yeah, so you know you have to adapt and eventually TrueCall or a solution like TrueCall is going to come around. I remember when Jurnia came around oh yeah, and I think it was a final expense for johnson and johnson or like one of those companies and uh, and the publisher was like you want me to do what you want me to, to have this id that that shows you whether the form that was there prior to the outbound dial is the right form. And no, I'm never gonna do that. And then you had the scammers out of, uh, certain countries that were like no, no, we have jurnia, and and what it was was literally a guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I bought those fucking calls. Man jesus got me in trouble too. I didn't know it's a night, I thought it was legit.
Speaker 3:Man, yeah, yeah it's a nightmare, and so I remember speaking to the guys at jurnia and I was like, okay, what we need to do is we need to not just make sure that the language is present and all these things are present, but we need to figure out whether the IP of the consumer matches the area code and matches like the submission time, et cetera, because sometimes the submissions were like a second to fill out an entire form, which is impossible, right? So time to make a submission happen. All these different things. There's always been software that attempted to clean up and legitimize things, and it's not that.
Speaker 3:Look, all marketing is legit, marketing in a way like if you're getting somebody to make a phone call, then to an extent that's legit there's something and and, and you know it's that, that that uh, joe rogan joke, um, you know it's, he doesn't feel bad for the guys that that are on the on the back page of a hustler magazine buying big dick pills and, you know, thinking that they're going to work right, like, those guys can get scammed.
Speaker 3:It's the guys that you know get scammed by Enron type shit. That's what scares them. But you know it's getting a person on the phone and then selling them a product. That takes a certain level of talent and you have to be careful about how you do it and you have to follow certain guidelines. But, uh, I think there needs to be a balance between legitimacy and and the ability to be creative, because, like, you're not gonna sell. Like, if an agency is expecting to get the most clean phone call in the world for, for, uh, for for five bucks or something, or, or, or whatever, then it's just not gonna happen. Yeah, right, so there's just not going to happen, right. So there has to be a balance of these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're 100% right about it. I think it's almost like a maturation of the industry, right, there's more. The buyers, the advertisers, are becoming more keen to all this bullshit that was going on. Like me too, I bought those leads man, thinking they were legit, until I had a freaking real legitimate TCP issue. I'm like the fuck, this has your name. What do you mean? This isn't real. The IP didn't match. I'm like, oh my God, here we go, right. So then I had to give. I had to give, I had to forget, fuck to understand I was doing something wrong. And then you become smart and the same where it's going to catch that shit right away. So the bottom line is that you have to adapt. You can't be playing.
Speaker 3:Imagine to Dimitri's point, imagine what happens when you have to submit the SMID ads to Facebook and if the ad doesn't have SMID on it and you're pushing media to it, then that ad gets blocked.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because Facebook made a deal with CMS or something.
Speaker 2:Imagine that nightmare world, yeah, and then. Then you, maybe, maybe you get away with it and then. But what happens when you pumped half a million dollars worth of calls and your buyer gets slapped under? They, they, they slap their wrist and all of a sudden they don't want to pay your bill. That happens all the time. You've seen that. You've probably seen people burn millions of dollars. I mean, it's a big fucking numbers man we're talking about, it's not?
Speaker 3:worth it. I mean, yeah, I mean, how many times did you know? There's a Medicare company out there that whenever they get 20s I don't want to name names for obvious reasons, but there was a Medicare company out there that whenever a publisher or a publishers or you know, like a networks publisher somewhere down the line had a TCPA issue, they paused the entire invoice and the invoice could be half a million dollars, be a million dollars until they investigate and go through the whole thing. So so it does get really crazy it's crazy, man.
Speaker 2:And cash flows. Everything has happened to me too, where and I I thought I was, you know when I first learned got in this industry I'm starting to pump volume. You buy a lead like that. So once you think you're gonna pay 200 grand from your advertisers, or all of a sudden they have an issue like that yeah, they hold on. They hold on that 60, 90, 120 days and like, what am I gonna do? I gotta pay this person, pay that person. You're not talking about small money, man. So, yeah, that, though that that stuff's gonna be going away pretty soon, but there's ai, man, so you gotta adapt.
Speaker 3:So I'm glad you talked about that yeah, yeah, I mean ai, ai is definitely the game changer in the world. Um, yeah, but moving away from ai, like that's great. Like I, I think, uh, I think, eventually most people that will remain in the space once that kind of AI filter comes down harder than it's already coming down, um, those people are going to be fine, like they'll figure out ways to properly prompt uh or or hire proper, you know, chat, gpt uh, engineers or or whatever. Uh, my biggest hope is that they pay those operators the right amount of money, because, you know, I was thinking about this for a long time and one of the things that pissed me off when I was at Retriever was the lowest paid employee was responsible for the most critical part of the business.
Speaker 2:That's a lot.
Speaker 3:The lowest paid employee was the most responsible for the most critical part of your business, which was managing call flow. So imagine you're doing $100,000 in media buying and you're sending it into a system like Retriever or Ringba or you know TrackDrive or whatever the system is, and your lowest paid employee is the one managing it. It's insane, it's insane to me that people, would you know, would outsource that stuff Like it drives me nuts. And then you know, one of the things that we, we would have was, you know, back when, back when I was working at Retriever, was, um, you know, somebody like me, or like Phil or any one of our employees, where, where the employees are all highly, highly skilled, we didn't hire people that that, uh, actually, including our marketing people, everybody knew how to create a ping post integration.
Speaker 3:It's amazing, be it with Ringba or with any other platform out there, they knew how to do that and that in itself has a crazy value, because you have to be able to help a customer. But the reason that we had to help them to that extent even while building simplifying features and building web configurators and all these different things is because on the other side of the coin, everybody's trying to save money because they're already spending so much, and so, instead of paying somebody an extra 60K a year or 100K a year you know US, canadian right. So let's say, you pay an operator 100K a year to manage your call campaigns, that person is worth their weight in gold because all of the money that you're making, or the bulk of the money that you're making, is being made through those campaigns. So that person is going to be highly intelligent and understanding how to properly create flows that make sense or spot the problem of why that phone call didn't go to the right buyer or why didn't you know the rescue feature, pull the call and send it somewhere that it had to be sent, or whatever the case may be. Those people matter because those people are going to make sure they can be the difference between making, you know, a million dollars and making half a million dollars or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 3:The amount of pings that we now have in the paper call space is crazy. It's millions upon millions, upon millions of pings. I don't remember what the number is off the top of my head, but there's like a massive number of these pings. And then if I talk to majority of the operators within their companies, like I don't know, I tell my rep to set up my RTB and it's like and, by the way, I also don't like the term RTB it's RTBB, which is, you know, rtb stands for real-time bidding. In reality, it's real-time blind bidding because you're also not seeing the other bids that are coming in, so there's no proper competition between the different parties. So you have zero insight into why your bids aren't being accepted.
Speaker 3:But you're also, you know, paying somebody that's probably not smart enough or not skilled and maybe not smart enough isn't the right word but not skilled enough to properly diagnose those problems, or maybe just doesn't give a shit because they're not getting paid enough money. Like. You shouldn't be outsourcing the most important portion of your business to to those people. Those people should be highly skilled people that you pay a lot of money because they're the ones driving your business forward. Just like you should be paying your media buyers a lot of money, you should be paying your, your operators, a lot of money because because without them, like yeah, because without them, like yeah, sure, you can sit and your company can generate millions of dollars. And you can, you know, drive your Lamborghini and do your cell phone videos and be like look at how rich I am. But in reality, you know, is it due wealth or is it you sacrificing a portion of your business and maybe even making more money by having those people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the headaches, man, it's not even worth it. I mean we've done. When I first started my company, we had this terrible I don't know I'm not gonna say the name of this, it was a cheap call routing thing and not call routing. Uh, I think we weren't doing calls and but like, like elite speeder kind of competitor kind of thing, right, I mean I didn't want to pay, whatever they were three, five thousand a month. I think I was paying 500 a month. Oh my, I think I was paying $500 a month. Oh my God, bro, I would.
Speaker 2:I'd have a day where I thought I made fucking I don't know, $3,000, $5,000 of profit and like we wound up making nothing because half the leads didn't go where they were supposed to go. It was such a mess. And I don't even know how I kept my guy Tom on the team. I don't know how he didn't quit save three $4,000 a month. And, bro, I just pissed out away in a day because of this bullshit and I was pissing away 15, 20 grand a month at least, maybe more. And I'm going to my wife. I mean I'm like yo, I got to stop this shit, cause this. I'm looking at the revenue numbers, but where the fuck's the profit, and I'd look at the end of the month Like're either you're you're trying to save money where you shouldn't. Yeah Right.
Speaker 3:You're trying to save money either on the tech or you're trying to save money on the employee that manages that tech, and those are two big mistakes. Like, yeah, okay, if somebody is charging you 10 cents a minute for, for, uh, for your calls, that doesn't make any sense. But if they're charging you a fair amount and they're providing you with enough assistance, you should still have somebody in-house. That's a fucking expert at it, because that's what's making you all your money. That's it. You have to have your crazy expert dialer guy. You have to have your crazy expert reporting guy. You have to, you know, like, all of those roles have to be taken care of by experts, by, by, uh, by by extremely analytical, extremely, extremely devoted people, and you have to show them their appreciation and they have to make the money that they should be making because of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. So this is fascinating man. A lot of good stuff here. I want to ask you we're coming up on time here but I want to ask you something I think is very important. You have a very unique. You've had very unique eyes on things right In your past eight, nine, 10 years, whatever. It's been a very different perspective than moving, I'd say, 99.5% of people out there. What is the common denominator in terms of I don't even want to say business person in our industry, lead generator, media buyer, like you've seen, the people that are putting up numbers and putting up not just putting up numbers, but also running their businesses right, properly? We mentioned something like Anthony Sangere. It's a great example, right. What's a common denominator in their success? You may have answered it earlier. You said something maybe that's related to that but what do you think is why have they been successful To reach that echelon? How do you get there? What have you seen inside of them?
Speaker 3:It's the that are hungry is not for recognition but for knowledge, right? Guys like Dimitri, guys like Anthony, guys like Ron Hart, carlos, michael Walker, bilal, you know Manizu, kareli, leo, david, boris, like all these guys like, like they're all so hungry for knowledge and and and self-improvement in the in, in their daily lives as well as their business lives, that that that others just don't compare. It's kind of like that whole idea of Kobe Bryant going to court like a few hours early every day.
Speaker 3:That's amazing At the end of the day he was, he was doing so much more than somebody else, Right? So that same concept, applied to business, gets you the exact same result. You get people where you know they're so passionate about their business. Like, for instance, I never want to talk to Boris on a Monday Like I hang up on him if he calls me. I just I can't Because he's like a ball of anxiety because he cares so much about his business and that's just the way he is.
Speaker 3:Or, you know, the same goes for guys like Bilal. When I first met Bilal, he was doing tons and tons of money in leads for Assurance back in the day, and now he's one of the leaders in the pay-per-file space as well. And he got that way by continually driving, having that desire, having that hunger he built. At first it was just him, right, Like now he has this massive team of great people around him as well. Um and and uh.
Speaker 3:The same goes for everybody else. I mean I. I now subscribe to um, to Manny Zuccarelli's model of of um, of having experts in different fields. Rather than having um, a Swiss army knife of employees, where every employee is a Swiss Army knife, it is good to have experts in every one of those fields, but those guys like Manning and Bilal and everybody else that I've mentioned, those are the people that are up before you and go to bed after you and they're not lazy and they don't give up, and maybe they get a day where they lose a bunch of money, but it doesn't stop them from coming back with a vengeance.
Speaker 3:That's what you need. You need that hunger, you need that power, you need that strive, you need you need to have almost like a fighter's mentality and you need to be like. This person is just like like okay, I lost a bunch of money. Good, I'm gonna learn how to make sure that next time. First of all, good that I had the ability to afford to lose this kind of money and, second of all, good because now I'm going to learn from my mistake and make sure that I double the amount that I make next time.
Speaker 2:That was a great answer and while you were talking, one thing I want to say too everyone that Stans mentioned, including yourself, follow their LinkedIn, follow their Instagram, including yourself. Follow their LinkedIn, follow their Instagram. You'll get inspired by them. That's how I found out Manny went to the White House, not the White House, to Washington DC. Bilal speaking of him, I think they go places where other people won't go. I mean, manny went to Washington DC.
Speaker 2:Bilal speaks at Google, exactly. Yes, he gets flown out by Google and speaks like what no one else I don't know anyone else doing. Again, it started from a one-man shop to tons of people on his team doing great, a lot of ups and downs, but it's fucking always going forward, right. And, yeah, going to Google. I mean, google's one of the top five, most valuable companies, the top 10, I don't know up there, but he's there, he's in bed with those people. So you want to get in bed. You want that.
Speaker 2:Proximity is what it comes down now. Now you're talking about a company that was bought out by Humana, which I don't even know what their market cap half a trillion, I have no clue, but that's a whole other fucking level. So you're doing that too as we speak, and then I'm going to be speaking at an event in Puerto Rico end of April. My friend Maury's throwing an event there. A great event I love. Maury, you should try and make that event. But I'm going to talk about what I'm doing right now, because I'm doing that too. I got these deals with publicly traded solar battery companies. Man, we have a press release going on in a couple of days. We have all these deals where it's kind of tied to Legion but it's not Like it's another level up, and that's kind of what you're doing too.
Speaker 3:So you follow them, follow their clues and you can get there too yeah, yeah, I mean, I I'll give you another um, another quick anecdote of what it takes to be successful. Um, you know, you know, I've been doing muay thai for forever. Like you're talking about muay thai, yes, not that I'm nobody like in comparison to the guys that I know. That's why I don't really like. I'm like, yeah, okay, I do Muay Thai or whatever. I go to Thailand.
Speaker 3:But there's a guy named Ferdaz Naimi. Him and I started not started together, but I met him when he was a young kid he was like 18 and I was like 20-something and we were training in the same gym and at a certain point we both made decisions that kind of changed our lives. He went the route of he's going to quit all the work that he was doing. He was becoming a professional plumber, like he was doing all these great things, he was making good money and he's going to sacrifice his life and become a professional MMA fighter. And he went to Pittsburgh, to this place called Lower Burrell, pennsylvania, shout out Matt Factory, and lived in a tiny room where, like, the toilet is in the same room as your kitchen and everything. It's like fucking insane. And he lived there for two years learning how to wrestle. That's how he met Bo Nickel, that's how I ended up meeting Bo Nekel. But this kid went from being a great Muay Thai striker to becoming an undefeated 5-0 MMA fighter now and I support him as much as I can and I think he's probably one or two fights away from being in the UFC and he's a massive inspiration to me as well. Man, because watching a guy that sacrificed his entire life, sacrificed everything, left his family, left his job, left every single thing you can imagine. He sacrificed, stripped himself down to nothing, almost like a monk mode, and just fought and learned and fought and learned and read books and philosophy and all these things and studied the art as much as he could Now 5-0 undefeated it's amazing. And read books and philosophy and all these things and studied the art as much as he could Now five and no undefeated it's amazing.
Speaker 3:And it takes. It takes that mentality of I don't give a fuck. I know that I'm destined for greatness and I'm going to reach it by sacrificing everything that I can and diving into it headfirst. That's the most important thing. I dove in headfirst into Retriever. I'm diving in headfirst into Enroll here and hopefully coming out the other side excuse me with more knowledge than I've had before and transforming everything.
Speaker 3:I mean I want to transform the way I speak and the way I act and everything, because the lead gen industry taught me one way and now I'm learning a much more professional and more kind of even keeled way from uh, from speaking to guys like Tyler and uh and Brandon and the team there and um, you know, like I said, watching guys like that sacrifice absolutely everything and take it, put everything to the side, put their lives on hold and say I believe that I can achieve this, no matter what like, no matter what you believe. If you believe it's strong enough, it's not going to come to you unless you put in the hard work that's associated with it. That is the most important part of it is you really have to dive into it headfirst.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what, man I can't edit it on a note because you I think that's the key diving headfirst, right, that's what all these successful people we talked about have done, and you did that too with with muay thai. You went to thailand, right, I know, I know for a point, you, I think you kind of you went away for a bit. You're like listen, I'm turning off the business. The business ran on its own and you went there and you're fighting over there and you just go first.
Speaker 3:I did. I did a few stints of uh, of training, and I really loved it and I now have my entire back is tatted with Buddhist tattoos and stuff. I kind of became a Buddhist while I was out there, to the extent I adopted a lot of the philosophies that they have and I've seen these guys that you know, like dude, like these kids, start fighting at four, like the world champion right now, this guy named Thao Nchai he's doing an interview. The world champion right now, this guy named Tawan Chai he's he's doing an interview, uh, and and and he's speaking with this guy and he tells them. My most proud moment was when I fought for the first time. I was 10 years old and my opponent was five and I knocked him out and I was happy because he had a bunch of fights before that and I've never fought before.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's insane.
Speaker 3:Like the mentality of people out there is is incredible and I learned a lot from from um, from the people that I met over there. I mean, I love Thailand, it's such a wonderful place, but but the mentality of the people and and kind of the the hard work that they put into everything is incredible. Man you make me want to go there, but yeah yeah, it's cool.
Speaker 2:I want one last thing. I mean, I'm just gonna give you the floor, man. Any last, anything we didn't touch upon. You want to talk about what? Any what's like a last, and I don't do this with anybody, but I feel like you have so much experience and this is a great interview, by the way god man, this is amazing, but I can't wait to see your evolution too. What's going to happen next? But what? What's your last thoughts, man? Anything else you want to leave off on?
Speaker 3:Um, I know a lot of us are really good at giving other people advice, but I think the most important thing is to be able to take your own advice, and I'm very shitty at it. I'm great at giving people advice, I'm great at talking about these concepts and things, and for a while I was able to take my own advice, and then I stopped over time due to burning out, et cetera. But take your own advice for the most part and believe in yourself and you're going to be able to achieve far more than you ever thought was possible. I mean, I'm a kid that went through two immigrations before I was 10 years old.
Speaker 3:You know, I never thought that I'd be wearing, you know, shoes that cost whatever amount of money you know like, like. I never thought that I'd be able to get to the point that I'm at today. And the only way to get to that point is believing in yourself and just saying fuck it and just doing it like that. That is the most important kind of takeaway I can give you in this business, in life in general Just say fuck it and do the thing, do the hard thing and don't stop until you achieve results. That's it. That's that's it.
Speaker 2:Great advice and that's a philosophy I love. G-show. Let's fucking go, man. Do what you got to do to make it happen. So, again, an honor having you on here. How can people find out more about you If they don't reach out to you? What's the best mode?
Speaker 3:Uh, so Instagram StanPav88,. Find me on LinkedIn. Stop me at a conference. I'm pretty reachable. My email is stan at enrollherecom, so they can reach me and enroll here as well.
Speaker 2:Beautiful Guys. This is great man. This is amazing. I'm glad we did it. I think we have to do another one down the road six months, a year from now. Whatever See where you're at man, how it's going over there, and I love the whole thing Disruption it's all about disruption. You got to freaking pivot. If not, you're going to get disrupted, right. So I love that. We talked about that. Man. Listen, fuck it right. Happy on the show man. Thank you.
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