The LFG Show
Talking with movers and shakers who grew up with nothing and worked their asses off to achieve success. Let's 🤬 Go!!!!
The LFG Show
Transparency: The Key to Lead Gen Success w/ Miles Sullivan
BIG SHOUTOUT TO LEADNOMICS: Redefining Customer Acquisition For Top Brands!! leadnomics.com #NoMoneyNoHoney
🚨 Transparency ain't just a buzzword anymore — it’s the non-negotiable foundation for crushing it in lead gen today.
In this wild (and robe-wearing 😎) Vegas episode, Miles Sullivan and Dave Stodolak get real about what it actually takes to win in today’s game. 🎙️♠️
👋 The "Wild West" days of shady tactics are fading fast. What’s replacing it?
✅ Honesty.
✅ Clarity.
✅ Congruency across your funnel.
From ad creative ➡️ landing page ➡️ call center, it’s all about alignment. When your message flows from start to finish, consumers feel seen, trust builds, and conversions soar 🚀
💡 Miles drops a 🔥 gem on younger audiences too: if your ads feel fake, they’ll literally comment “Diddy” as a callout.
Think your campaign’s tight? Check those comments. Gen Z doesn’t play when it comes to authenticity. If it’s not real, they’ll roast it 😬😂
And just when you think we’re done — boom 💥 — the convo shifts to the future of frictionless everything.
From Apple Pay-style one-click solutions to seamless insurance, healthcare, and home services journeys — the brands that embrace transparency + tech are gonna dominate the next wave 🌊
💬 Whether you're crafting content, scaling campaigns, or building next-gen funnels — this episode is a blueprint for the modern marketer.
🎯 Powered by our legendary sponsor Ringba — the GOAT of call tracking and attribution 📞🐐
👷♂️ And brought to you by Roofsinabox.com — your virtual staffing and AI plug for scaling smarter, not harder 🤖🧠
Tap in. Take notes. Then go lead the way.
🧠💼💥 LFG!
📲 Subscribe now on The LFG Show for more unfiltered convos and real marketing game.
yo, we're back. Ward is bald. We're fucking leads con. We're wearing robes for no reason. Transparency I went miles sullivan. We did a banger, a banger of a short at lead gen world. Right, we're gonna do even more banger of a fucking podcast here in vegas. We're in the law sponsored by leadnomics. We're not fucking around. Let's go. Let's talk about transparency and how important it is in the lead gen game.
Speaker 2:Welcome back. Season two yes, sponsored by Leadnomics. Transparency, transparently, I'm sitting in a robe right now because I'm singing a very. You got me in a robe too. Yes, because you know, know, we're one in the same. You know this is what we're going to talk about. You know, the media, buyers connecting with the buyers, talking about transparency. I lost my plumbing in my beautiful suite two thousand dollar a night suite and, uh, woke up to hearing that I can't shower. So I'm in a robe. So I want to be transparent with the viewers and that's what I want to talk about is transparency.
Speaker 2:Um, I, honestly, I've seen this industry evolve and I think everybody that's been in this space, at least since 2010 plus, knows that there was a wild wild west at one point, but I think the pie is shrinking.
Speaker 2:You know and everyone has to be transparent about exactly how to secure the ROI, that you need to keep the campaigns rolling, how to secure the ROI, that you need to keep the campaigns rolling. You know you're going to have very, very strict advertisers. You're going to have very, very black hat publishers, and one thing that's allowed me to have a little bit of success in this space is trying to communicate what it takes to drive down the cost of the acquisition and, you know, get those click-through rates and get those scroll rates where they need to be, and then also managing the demands from the advertisers who are like I would like to hit this certain kpi and this and these are the types of ads we would like to see, and I think it's massaging that relationship and and trying to create that um from that transparency yeah, I'll tell you what I might.
Speaker 1:I went to my first leescon in 2017. I wish I can fucking. There was like a picture of all the people that were in the crowd. Compared to now, I think 95 of those people aren't here anymore right, 100.
Speaker 2:True, I mean there was a point. A lot of people don't want to admit it, but I mean all the major refi buyers were all buying trump ads and when they were all buying Paul Ryan ads back in 2017. We were doing that for solar man. They worked, yeah, and it worked and they made a lot of money and it was.
Speaker 2:It was more of a you know, don't ask, don't tell type of thing, and I think it's honesty and transparency is very key, because everyone's always hiding something from somebody. You know the advertisers either lying about their ROI or the publishers lying about their ROI, and if everyone comes together and says here's how big the pie is, we all get a piece of it. It almost is like a uh, like a mass tort settlement or a legal settlement. You know there's 33% goes to medical, 33% goes to the lawyer and 33% goes to the plaintiff or whatever. And I feel like that's where the industry is going, because if you want it, like Mark Cuban says, you know, like one percent of a watermelon is better than 100 percent of a grape. It's like, if you're talking about spending five million dollars a month, or 10 million dollars a month, if you're talking about massive scale.
Speaker 2:Everyone should just be on board to make their little 33 percent or their 10 percent, and I feel like every business can be OK, you know, 20 percent plus. And I think greed is really been a huge issue with ad creation and that's why I think, as the industry transitions into compliance, you know you have to be transparent with these advertisers and explain to them. Here's the types of ads that I can drive this type of acquisition. It's going to cost you that much and it's a little bit aggressive. And here's the type of ad that you want me to run that is two X what you want to pay. So now we need to talk about how we can find that happy medium, and I think that's very key.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's huge man and uh, listen, uh well, we my company may make it most of our money home at, because there's a bunch of idiots in my suite right now, but anyway. And they're doing, yeah, they're trying to fuck with us here, but it's all good, it's all good, just because I'm in a robe doesn't mean I don't know shit.
Speaker 2:The robe is toasty.
Speaker 1:I feel like really cozy man. I'm getting kind of sleepy Fucking. Anyway, it's good to feel good.
Speaker 2:I feel like I'm back in the womb you look good, feel good smoking.
Speaker 1:We did some good cologne anyway, so check it out. What the hell was I saying? Oh, yeah, so we're doing a lot with uh, roofing white hats, windows, bathroom. You can't run, it's got to be white label. You can't run gimmicks with that kind of shit. Right, yeah, so it's it's I love.
Speaker 2:I love working directly with advertisers because you truly get to see how quickly you can uh, iterate an ad, because their complaints aren't usually that aggressive. You know, I'm not ever claiming, oh, you're gonna get free this or free that, but I also understand that I do need to allude to something. I think alluding is also very key, because you have to allude to anything. I mean, uh, the, the top brands in the world. I mean for a shampoo or any. They can't make certain claims, but they allude. They allude to a certain ego or a certain lifestyle, and I think that's where the content creation comes in. And that's why I think content creation is so key, because you don't have to be fraudulent or scammy and make certain claims, but you can allude to a certain lifestyle that will enhance their intent. And I think that advertisers need to be more open to that creativity from the media buying standpoint, and I think that media buyers need to be more open to iterating their aggressive ads.
Speaker 1:So check it out. I think it comes down also to having a client or advertiser whose call center or intake center knows what the fuck they're doing, because I mean, I've seen this, I built some solar call centers. Advertiser that whose call center intake center knows what the fuck they're doing. Because I mean, I've seen this, I built some solar call center. Some of my clients actually went into call centers helping script the shit back in the day and help the scale campaigns.
Speaker 2:But they got to know how to control the conversation is what it comes down to, right, and if they know the ads that are running, they know how to kind of direct it ahead of time to be proactive, right that's an amazing, amazing point because I remember when I first started in this industry I climbed to the top of my company it was a W4, now DMS but I was a top sales guy in the space and I was working with the top publishers in the space and I'm like, wow, this is so incredible that we have these amazing advertisers that have this incredible infrastructure, this incredible infrastructure. You know they've built this refi business or this roofing business, they've built this insurance business. And then you have these publishers that are the best basement dwellers. You know these guys are with their laptops, they're driving more reach, they're the best publishers. But at the end of the day, when it comes to quality, we're all relying on some dude making 12 an hour in a call center somewhere.
Speaker 2:And I always blew my mind that why isn't the congruency there? Why aren't, why isn't the ad angle spoken all the way through to the phone call? And so now one thing that I've seen to work is that I talk about the phone call you're going to experience in the ad. So that way that congruency and that anticipation create it increases conversion rates, because the human already knows how human the consumer who is a human, we hope, because it's bad quality if you send zebras, but but you know the consumer is already prepared for that, either outbound if you're doing lead form, or inbound if you're doing DID, rtb, whatever paper call. But they're already prepared that the way that you're going to allude to this lifestyle and potentially be helped in a particular vertical is by this two to three to four to five minute phone call that you're going to have with this professional.
Speaker 2:And I think that that was a great point that you made, because we do need to have congruency. Farm to table I mean, think about how the restaurants have evolved to farm to table Like. Why is it so? Why can't we have that in our industry, where we know where the ad is generated, we know exactly who created the content, the call center is aware, the average is aware, everyone's aware, but they're also being creative so that CAC still remains low and you know.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I'm rambling. No, no, this is awesome and you're making me think. With my team, I want to do that more. I want to get I don't know, I think we're dropping the ball there. I think everyone's dropping the ball. You're the first Listen. We filmed I don't know. I mean 55 of these podcasts done, probably another 50 hundred interviews. No one's really talked about this and it's something that's. It's shocking to me that that no one's talking about this. So I'm glad you're bringing it uh to the I even me. I've been doing this shit a long time, but and I know this intuitively but we're not having those conversations with the people don't see the direct correlations.
Speaker 2:It's called the zeitgeist. People don't see the direct correlations between all mediums okay, all industries okay. Whether it's auto sales or it's filmmaking or it's anything, congruency is key. So if you're watching a movie, you need congruency between scenes. You need to understand where you're going. So imagine seeing an ad or having a great salesman sell you on something and you walk into a room and you have no idea what the fuck to do once you walk into that room. It's like congruency is key and I've always been so focused on CPA.
Speaker 2:I've been a broker, I've been a media buyer, I've been an advertiser and I feel like there's just such a lack of you know, transparency and communication there, because we're never really concerned about the consumer. We look at the consumer or that, that click or that, that acquisition as a number. In reality, it's an experience. That person is experiencing something, something that's what makes you fucking money. When that person experiences an ad and they go to a landing page that represents that ad, then they go and they call someone who represents that fucking landing page. They're going to convert because they feel safe, because there's congruency. Congruency creates trust and if you don't have trust, then you're going to lack conversion.
Speaker 1:yeah, wow. No, this is deep stuff, man. I'm glad you brought that up, man, and I was going to say too, when we talked in, uh, in in legion world, right, and you kind of alluded to that right here too, you talked about user generated ugc, right, and the proprietary content and all that stuff, and I think that, uh, that's that's where, if you want to be ahead, you're talking about being ahead of the curve with transparency, right, and I think that's the next evolution of that is you got to be a bit more ambiguous, you have to allow the audience to still have a brain, and I think the same is with marketing.
Speaker 2:You know these people are smart, they understand.
Speaker 2:I've noticed the difference in the click-through rate on conversion or on landing pages If you take a picture of a woman or a picture of a happy customer or if you flip it to a selfie because people want to know that you genuinely took that photo.
Speaker 2:You know people trust people and I feel like they're getting smarter day and day, like back in the day. If you first started in the wild, wild west acai berries, I mean you could just say whatever you want. I feel like people are getting more hip and they they want to genuinely hear from other. You know buyers or other. You know that's why you see TikTok shop taking off and e-coms kind of having a big uplift and you're seeing VSLs take off and it's because people will sit and listen to a four minute video or whatever and then they'll give you $200 for an ebook or whatever it is, as long as it comes off a bit genuine and hopefully it is genuine. But if I'm just talking about advertising and advertising needs to give people more credit, advertising needs to look people in the eyes and let them feel good that they're not being advertised to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think your background right, going to film school. You're a musician too, right? I think that gives you a unique look at this sort of stuff and you make me think right now. You know, I see these VSLs and you're right, there's some four minutes, some 10 minutes, some 15 minutes. It's crazy, especially like the investment products. They go on and on and on. Right About the end of the world, gold took off. Right, a lot of gold offers crushed it. So the point is it's a story we're telling. People make decisions based on emotion, stories, movies. So about you know the introduction, the plot, the climax, all that shit, right, you know, you watch the show White Lotus. It's fucking like that's what hooks people and you want to be compelling is what it comes down to.
Speaker 2:Even music industry. You'll see some of the top labels that they're still dealing with the same things that we're dealing with in the direct response industry, because they look at nothing but numbers and Spotify numbers and stuff like that, and then they wonder why, why did this artist take off and this artist didn't? They're never looking at the actual connections between the artists which, technically, would you, we consider the product you know what we're selling and the advertisements. They're never looking at the actual human connection and I feel like the only time that I've ever really, you know, excelled in this space as of recently is when I've actually just genuinely stepped back and looked like, okay, how, how do I talk to these people and get the best out of them and give them something in return? But, like, be honest, but be entertaining. Be entertaining, you know, like understand that it's a battle with somebody who's scrolling. They're not and this is something I also always explain to advertisers is we are not, we're, we're cold traffic, okay. So that's a completely different game. You can't talk about hot. You have a hot list or, if you've got data, all that stuff, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:The game that I'm in, the game that we're most of us are in is you're scrolling through Instagram or Facebook and you're looking at your ex-wife or you're looking at your children. You're just scrolling for shit and I'm going to tell you to refinance your house, I'm going to tell you to get a fucking roof or your solar panels. That's cold traffic. I'm stopping you in your day and you're like, had a rough day and you, you know you want to check on your Instagram or TikTok or you know YouTube to just make yourself feel better, watch some old music videos, and I'm going to stop you in your tracks and get you to hop on a phone call and get solar panels. You in your tracks and get you to hop on a phone call and get solar panels.
Speaker 2:Like, we need to be more appreciative of that experience for that particular human that person is. Their life is being changed, as lame as it sounds, you know every conversion their life is changing. In that moment they're going to have to make a commitment to something with their house or something with their insurance, and we did that while you weren't even thinking about that. And that's cold traffic. And I find that I'm taking more pride in that and trying to be putting myself in their shoes, like I would if I was writing a song or if I was writing a movie and give the audience more credit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when we in Legion world world we talked about, briefly about uh, you dropped some sauce man. You talk about targeting 25 to 35 year olds, right, and I think that there's a lot. I don't know what generation, I get lost. There's only fucking generations out there right now. But I feel like people talk shit about the young generation. The youth, right, but these are, that's the future of the country, future of the society, economy, and they're there. They know they spot bullshit fast. I feel like they got a really good intuition, especially with his online that generation invented ugc exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, as as marketers, I mean we're just, we're just stealing. You know there's a great book it's called steal like an artist, uh, and you know you're, we're just stealing from the generation that's created it organically. I mean you saw people take off with millions and millions of views organically talking about auto insurance without even asking for anything in return. And then we started, you know, people started analyzing that and but you know the young generation, they definitely do call bullshit, but they're also interested in, you know, convenience. And that's why I think there's a direct correlation between AI tools and this younger generation. And if you explain to them, you know this is an easy, fast, you know, peace of mind, get in quick, get in easy, couple clicks. It's a market that I've only seen recently take off because I've always been targeting younger people and it just has never really worked.
Speaker 2:I feel like everybody on this that's watching this podcast can probably say that they've got a vacation home based off of the 55 plus market, and I'm starting to see that. You know, more and more kids are getting smart about wanting the. You know the tools that older people, older generations, have had, but they want it to be cool. They want it to be simple, so it's trying to explain it in their way. Yeah, you know that this is like a no bullshit. You know a couple.
Speaker 2:You know you have to speak their language and I think that's also key in you know, in marketing is you have to understand who's actually watching the video. I mean, if you could sit down in the sales meeting with five different people, you know, I've got like a guy that's been driving, you know, trucks his whole life, and I've got a guy that he's owns a yacht, and I got a guy that works in a coal mine. I'm going to talk, I'm going to explain the benefit to them and you know, and talk about their pain points in a different way. And the younger generation is a whole different beast because they're already better than you, they're already smarter than you. They're probably already running the same fricking ads, you know. So you just just you have to be honest and and give them, show their pain points and show how much harder it's going to be to, you know, handle this auto insurance down the road or life or whatever. And you got to. You know trans be transparent I love it.
Speaker 1:I love what you said about convenience, how that drives the 25 to 35 year old generation. It's so true. I think I read something I don't know where I read that I do a lot of reading and that's why you got this Uber DoorDash, uber Eats DoorDash, all that stuff. They're accustomed to convenience, convenience, convenience, and it's not like the other generation. I don't think they don't want these big houses. They don't even want to buy a house anymore. They'd rather fucking rent. They'd rather they don't want to deal with headaches. So it comes out convenience, peace of mind. I think with that generation you know about that, it's it's funny.
Speaker 2:But if you go through instagram or go through facebook, go through tiktok and go to any advertisement that you see in, your probably see diddy diddy, good luck diddy, diddy, diddy, diddy. It's a whole trend right now with the younger generation who comments diddy on advertisement posts because they know it's bullshit. Yeah, if you're, if you're promoting a, a course about you know, I have a lamborghini, diddy, good luck diddy. You know if you, if you're, oh, get a new roof, get a new roof. If your ad isn't too advertising, didn't say diddy, diddy, diddy. I'm sure some of our ads right now, as we speak, have the comments Diddy underneath them. That's the younger generation speaking. But that's still a market. That's still a market crying for help. That's still a market that will convert and we have to do better to reach that market, because who in their right mind turns away a market?
Speaker 1:Bro, you know you make me think big time. So the election right and regardless of what you think, right, left, whatever the fuck. Well, barron Trump played a big role in the election. He told Donald Trump you got to go on the Joe Rogan podcast. You got to do this. The Nelk Brothers, yep, nelk Boys, nelk Boys and bro, that changed the election. He won the young male vote like by a lot. He won the young male vote like by a lot. He went to UFC fights right, he spoke. He, barron Trump, got in his ear. You got to do that and he changed the election. Man and people lose sight of that shit. You can't be thinking. It's not the old way of doing it. It evolves so fucking fast man.
Speaker 2:It's evolving for all ages and I feel like you know, obviously the younger kids are going to be the ones leading trust. Like you're gonna gain my trust through my. I'm gonna try my best to just communicate with you as honest as possible, tell you a cool story. There's so many different cool little angles you can do. There's like a tap on the. I can go. I can go for days about little angles that I've done that literally just you see a lot of. You see a big trend right now with hooks. You know where you'll see like these weird paintings or explosions and like hooks to get people in. It's like that's that's great, you know, but it's. I'm seeing just truly some of my favorite ads and some of the best ads I've seen.
Speaker 2:Work for the younger demographic has been literally just a guy, you know, or sometimes it's me, um, but like you, just just literally be like yo I don't usually post, this is weird, but like this is fucking easy, you know, and it's like because just expecting the fact that these kids are going to research you and they're going to call you fake, yeah, so it's like it's almost just being honest up front, being like this is a, this is an ad. I'm promoting this right now, but this actually did work. This is actually sick because we still have to be confident the fact that we do provide a service, and I feel like that. You know, sometimes in this performance marketing industry, I feel like guys do get insecure about their actual service and their product. I mean we do every, every vertical provides a service. I mean we're still providing a good product, you know, it's just. I feel like guys are ptsd from some of the hard angles they've ran. Maybe who knows, but you know we still's. Just I feel like guys are PTSD from some of the hard angles they've ran. Maybe who knows, but you know we still give people life insurance. You know we still give people final expense insurance. You know roofing, new roofs and all that stuff, but you know you're still delivering that product and people are going to buy that product. And if you look at how films and music has been marketed in the past 20 years versus how it was 40 years ago, it's still the same product.
Speaker 2:You just have to change the way you market it and I feel like you know, like I said, honesty and admitting it's almost like being the, the dad that admits you're not the cool dad. You're trying to be the cool dad like this is an ad. I get that. You think this is whack, but here's what I gotta say. You know, I didn't want. I didn't want to this. I didn't want to go to this website either. This is retarded. That's the only way it works. With the younger generation, I still feel like the older generations. It's still a little bit easier, but we're still missing out on half the market if you're not getting the 25 to 35. We're all going to make money off of 55 plus the day we die. This is a fact.
Speaker 1:How do you, how do you know about this? Like what, what? What made you like the light bulb moment that went on where 25 to 35 or underserved market testing?
Speaker 2:finally used using myself for ads. I mean, I'm one of a few white rappers in the history of human civilization that's ever signed a major record deal. You know I'm rappers in the history of human civilization that's ever signed a major record deal. You know I'm. I've done some pretty impossible things and I've always been successful in art because I care about who's digesting the art. You know I care about the end user. You know I've always just been on this path of trying to understand other people. And then when I got into marketing and I was a broker and I was an advertiser and I was a publisher, I wasn't creating the content. So I'm just all this shit and I'm like, wait a minute. I was able to sift through, you know, some of the toughest possible trenches you can go through because I just genuinely cared about who was listening to the music.
Speaker 2:And what if I tried that with the ads, you know? And like, what if I just made ads by myself? What if I just spoke how I wanted to say, like if I met you at the bar, you know, and my life depended on getting commission off you, getting a new roof, how would I talk to you? I'll be like bro, I fucking hate renovating because I can't afford it, you know. But luck, you know, it's just like. You just have to just treat it that way, and that's that's what really started working for me was just trying to find ways to come off honest while still, you know, like honest to to the to the core, to like this is a fucking hat. Yo, I got commission from this company that does like solar panels because this shit actually works, so they're paying me to put this ad out right now.
Speaker 2:This is fucking wild, you know. But you guys should check it out because I don't know shit about shit. You know, obviously I'm not swearing, but it's like when people see that ad, they're like this guy's admitting this is a fucking ad and he's admitting that he's a nobody. He's admitting is no shit. How could I hate on it? Yeah, how could I possibly diddy that ad? You know, and I'm telling you, everybody that's watching this podcast, I don't know what I'm looking at there. Um, go check your ads. If you're running on instagram, tiktok or facebook as we speak and you're running anything in our industry, any vertical, I guarantee you you have diddy comments underneath. If you're targeting anything under 35, I promise you, I challenge everybody watching this check your ads. You're going to have Diddy comments if you're under 35. And that's what I'm trying to combat.
Speaker 1:I love that. I never heard about this Diddy shit until you started talking about that man. So that's amazing. So let's talk about let's shift a little bit here so being a white rapper in Michigan, right yeah during the George Floyd era too. You know it was very racially based. Yeah, wow. So how did that help you? I mean, that had to give you a different insight. I mean, you're speaking to an audience, you're trying to win over an audience, right?
Speaker 2:It must have. I mean, I've shooted, but yeah, it was, uh, it was intense and I and I feel like I I did make mistakes myself, you know, I feel like I had a bit of a. There was a lot of god complex there. I grew up very poor and, um, I've always had dreams, you know, like entourage to take care of my friends and my family, and I was very excited when the whole record label thing came in and, you know, the money came in.
Speaker 2:I just the key is I lost focus of why I was there in the first place. I, you know the music was as important as it was navigating the label and navigating the politics. And then COVID and then the George Floyd thing. And, you know, I was blessed enough to finally learn a lesson that, like, I'm not on this planet to navigate politics, I'm on this planet because I like to make music that people can digest and that people can get through their fucking day, because they heard a song that I wrote. You know, it's just a mutual benefit there and that's why I eventually sold back my you know, my masters and got out of my deal so that I could start doing my new Melissa stuff, which is obviously the exact opposite of rap music. You know it's it's eighties rock and roll. My name is Melissa. It's a female name, so I wanted to be so far from cool guy because I feel that a lot.
Speaker 2:And you know, even in the advertisement industry everyone's just trying to be cool. In reality, the only reason anybody is driving a Lamborghini or anybody has a fucking business is because somebody fucking clicked on your ad and appreciated it and a fucking converted. Yeah, and I feel like bringing back that honesty and that contribution to the you know, giving the credit to the, the user is. I think that's that's cool and that's going to be key because they're going to get smarter day in and day out and eventually there's going to be so many fucking ai tools and whatever. And these people are who knows how we're even gonna market and it's gonna come down to honesty and that's why the honesty. Then you got to mix that with creativity because we still got to market you. You know we still got to get you to buy shit and do shit.
Speaker 2:So it is it's, you know, it's just almost a mutual trust. It's like when you go to a comedy show or you go to a music show, you know I'm paying because you sold me but you got to give me something. But you know that's always going to exist, so our industry is never going to go anywhere. But I just feel like it's going to get more finicky over the next 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. It's going to get more difficult for marketers because people are going to have more access to direct situations and ai tools. You just sign up on your phone and google tells you to do it, get your health and whatever. It's going to get tougher and that's why trust is going to be key and that you're going to have to have that relationship with the user. And that's if you make good content and you can build a brand around great content. Look at geico yeah, they sell fucking auto insurance, but there are people that are on their deathbed like I love the fucking gecko.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's only. It's only like 10, 15.
Speaker 2:It's not that you're saving fucking 80, but they built a brand around something somewhat entertaining, and you know that exchange giving them something. And you know that's not exactly what we do, because we're more performance based than you know. Branding because, guy, who can throw 10 million dollars at a billboard, not give a shit, but it's still there. In the sense that I feel like, now more than ever, creating a brand around entertaining content and honest content, building a community, uh, on your tiktok or your, your facebook or your instagram, an organic community while you're running paid ads, you know, really just admitting that you're fucking selling shit. But but look how cool we are and honest we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're still selling shit, cooler than you, you know, or better, you know whatever. That's gonna be so important because people nowadays, as soon as they see the word sponsored diddy, they don't give a shit. You know, and the old people are going to catch on too, you know, and a lot of people in this industry are making billions of dollars off the 55 plus and we'll continue to make billions of dollars to the 55 plus. But if you even look at the Medicare commissions, in the ACA commissions, they've gone down a little bit and it's just like I'm worried that you know, uh, there's going to be a little bit of a revolution and it's going to all come down to the content, because it's not going to come down on the buyers, it's not going to come down on the call centers, it's going to come down on the ones who are coming up with the ad angle that keeps the cack low, that keeps the fucking flow running and communicating that fucking ad to the call centers, to the ads, ads, transparency, full circle 100%.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned that it's going to get finicky. I agree with you. I think that it's going to be really people that you got to stay ahead of the curve, man, but how do you? What's your advice to people? How do you stay ahead of the curve in these times? Try?
Speaker 2:Try hard, you know. Be honest, I mean read, listen, um stay humble.
Speaker 2:I granted, I'm in a robe right now, so it's not very humble, but you know, nobody knows shit at the end of the day. At the end of the day, nobody knows shit because there's still a bunch of billionaires sitting around hoping that somebody buys amazon yeah, you know, it's amazon's a billion trillion dollar company because judy wants to buy fucking sneakers. So I, I think, just staying, staying humble to the consumer and, you know, just trying, I mean I, I'm always watching ads in the wild and I'm trying to find that, that gray area, because you, just you constantly are watching the most aggressive ads in the world that nobody wants to. You constantly are watching the most aggressive ads in the world that nobody wants to talk about and watching the cleanest ads in the world that are being paid for by CPM dollars. There's no attribution there in finding that middle.
Speaker 2:But I think that knowing that you don't really know shit is going to always help you be okay, fucking, look around, read, listen and find people that are better than you and look to the youth and look to the user, look to the influencers that are. You know. Look how TikTok shop really took off. I mean I didn't think econ was going to be as crazy it was going to be until TikTok shop took off. And now you got random dudes selling cologne on TikTok shop that are making more money than me. So I don't think anybody saw that coming unless you were really studying the influencers. So study the social media platforms that are going to obviously go nowhere and be humble to the consumer and be willing to pivot, you know, and, like I said, content.
Speaker 2:I mean there's it's everyone on these podcasts are going to say until they're blue in the face. You have to make content. You cannot be a buyer and not have direct access to the content and you can't be a media buyer who's not making content and have direct access to the buyer who has the call center or whatever. That whole playing field needs to be leveled because we all need each other. Because you built an infrastructure that can enhance the LTV of this consumer and I have a, I have a skillset that lowers your CAC, cac, ltv, I mean that's their entire existence.
Speaker 1:So there was a new endeavor called roofs in the box. It's just man from day one, it's taken off.
Speaker 3:When I first started getting into the roofing industry, what was happening was my fixed costs were always there, and so for me, I was looking at how can we, kind of one, save on these costs and then, two, how do I not lay people off during down times? But also maybe even the ability to pocket more money during the slow season or even the peak season. Since we've done this before, like with our lead gen companies where we have virtual staffing and from Argentina or Colombia, I'm like why don't we do the same thing in the construction business? Now, once we figured it out, we reduced their fixed cost by 70%, and so now during the downtime they have real seasoned veteran type of players, but during the uptime they pocket. 70% of their operational costs are now going back in their pocket, and then, when it's time to scale, you have the back end prepared, already ready to go to help them. Like lift off, depending on what state you're in, you're averaging about 12 and a half percent on what you pay out on taxes, insurance, like all the different insurances that you have to pay out, right, so, yeah, you don't have to pay out unemployment, you don't have to pay out bike insurance, medicare, social Security, the things that business owners have to eat.
Speaker 3:Roofs to Box is not just limited to roofing or home improvement companies. You can use it for any services, right? You can use it for IT. We use them internally for data cells, for hygiene, for analytics. It doesn't even matter what the vertical is Like business in a box at the end of the day, pretty much yeah, deep shit man.
Speaker 1:So Leadnomics, right yes.
Speaker 2:Leadnomics Brought to you by Leadnomics, If you're not with my company right now leadnomicscom backslash miles Leadnomics my house.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about what verticals are popping right now for you guys.
Speaker 2:Yes, if you're buying or selling anything in the Medicare ACA space. That's low-hanging fruit, that's easy. There's a bunch of apples hanging right behind the tree trunk medicare aca easy. What's exciting for me right now? Shout out david connection holdings. Love you guys. Oh, baby, um, high bid roofing calls.
Speaker 2:So I'll go on a little tangent here as somebody who's worked with. I don't want to, um, you know, shout out any other companies or belittle any other companies. But I've worked in the home service space for a while and there are times where you know you've got your ad dialed down to such a good thing and it's it's not making any claims or whatever. But there's such a disconnect between these aggregators in the home service space and the call center and that's that's bullshit. That's bullshit. As soon as I I swapped out of lead forms and went to calls for, you know, roofing or whatever it's like. Okay, if I'm generating these great roofing leads for $10 and I'm getting paid $80 a call, I know it's going to take four or five, six calls, you know, to get that $80 on that one, 20 or whatever. But at least I'm going direct to the source versus sending this ad hoping for a pixel fire on some lead form and it's outbounded by this aggregator who's got employees who are on vacation, who don't give a fuck it. That's bullshit. That's why I mean I'm so farm to table because I have somebody who was ready to fucking talk about a roof. And if you can't make that happen, that is on you. I'm just I'm sorry. My job is CAC, your job is lifetime value and I'm working more directly with call centers has definitely changed my life.
Speaker 2:Like I said earlier with you know, that congruency with making sure that the guys that are taking these inbounds understand where the ad came from, this is a beautiful story. That happened in a neighborhood and they got this, you know, with almost zero cost to them. Well, what do you mean? Almost zero cost? Like okay, well, it's gonna. You know you can't make claims like a free roof, but you have somebody who's ready to go. And it makes me laugh. I've been in this industry for 13 years and it still makes me laugh to this day when I've yelled at advertisers that want to have a claw back or a charge back or whatever. Send me that data and I will call them myself and I will close that shit. Because advertisers inherently are lazy because their infrastructure is built differently. Their infrastructure is in the cloud sometimes and it's like dude, I'm down here in the trenches dealing with your fricking consumers. So you know, do better. So shout out Connection Holdings because roofing is going well.
Speaker 1:Roofing is man. Yeah, I love it. And it's about, like you said, having that congruency, speaking with them, knowing what's going on. And I like what you said about that. Almost, almost, free, I mean, you got to. It's a play on words, man, is what it comes down to.
Speaker 2:And then, if you have the right call center, I mean, there's a great case study I have with Medicare and I'm like you show me what ad you think is the cleanest ad in the world and I'm going to send you a bill and you can pay agency fees. You can pay me my ad, spend plus 20% so that I can eat and pay for my family to live. Yeah, and let's do that. And they're like, oh whoa, that's way too expensive. I'm like, yes, now you understand why, at a point in time, advertisers were paying five dollars for a medicare lead. How do you generate a profitable medicare lead? Five dollars, that means you have to generate it for four if you even want to eat. How the fuck do you generate a four dollar medicare lead? Where did these groceries come from?
Speaker 2:Well, you tell us, mr advertiser, like in, the people are out here still trying to survive. Either you figure out how to make more off of your consumer or accept the fact that the guys out here living off of marketing are trying to survive too, everybody who's making money in the industry. It's like it's just nobody's honest about what their margins are. You know, when an advertiser is losing his ass, the publisher is rich, and when the advertiser is rich, the publisher quits Like that is the biggest thing in this industry and I feel like my strongest success point has been trying to fix that divorce, because everybody's always lying in this industry always.
Speaker 2:And the moment we get transparent and put our fucking robes on is the moment we can all make money, because if there's a billion dollars in the room and we can each get a third of it, we would all be rich. But if there's a billion dollars in the room but nobody knows who gets what, we all have to manipulate each other like a game of like chess. Then you might wind up with nothing. You might wind up with the full billion and then get sued. Who fucking knows?
Speaker 2:But the fact is like there is only so much money that can be made in this industry honestly and everyone is hiding that and I think it's retarded because if I could spend a billion dollars a month, I would and I would share it. I'd take my five percent, ten percent, whatever. The fucking pie allows me to have scale. But the lack of scale comes from lying. The pubs are are lying while the advertiser's losing their ass. The advertiser's lying while the publisher's losing, like leaving the campaign and going somewhere else because everyone has a little bit more they can give, and that moment that transparency comes alive, that's when campaigns scale.
Speaker 1:So how do you balance that fine line right? Is it about having those hard conversations with the advertiser?
Speaker 2:Well, that's just that no one wants to talk about. That is the point of these conferences, that is the point of these podcasts. That is the point of anybody watching this that thinks that their LinkedIn or their business cards are going to really help them scale in this industry. Linkedin or their business cards are going to really help them scale in this industry. You need to be vulnerable and be a human and be honest with your clients and be like hey, here's what's going on. You know, I've seen it. I've lost clients over non-transparency. I've lost clients over that. You know that. That that puffing chest like you're not going to tell me your margins, I'm not telling you my margins. And then and then you know you lose out on a lot of money. It's like, at the end of the day, it's you just gotta swallow your pride. We're in a marketing industry. We're not in a coal mine. We're not saving lives. We are not doctors, we're not first responders, we're not firemen, we're not police officers. We work a fucking job behind a fucking laptop and sometimes that laptop grows the head of the man who wears a suit jacket and sometimes it grows the head of the hacker in the basement who's the publisher. Whatever side of the business you're on. Who cares? We're all making money off the fucking internet and, at the end of the day, this internet is going to get finicky Because everyone's going to get smarter and everything's going to be more direct-to-consumer so direct-to-consumer that Amazon's just going to handle everything. You're going to get your health insurance through Amazon off a click while you're buying fucking boots. So good luck and get ready. Make what you can make now, be honest with your clients, settle your fucking scores and talk about your margins so that you can keep moving before these big players.
Speaker 2:Just watch, watch, saw how Apple Pay came about. Yeah, watch how CMS gets involved. Watch when the government gets involved. Apple Pay it's going to transition into insurance. You're going to be one click away from insurance. It'll all be whoever gets in on that. I don't know how, but it's going to be done and it'll be one click. Everything is one click. You saw a TV, you saw a remote, now everything's. You can think your fucking channel and it goes Like wake up, there's Apple Pay. Now you don't think that. Insurance, auto, auto insurance, everything is going to be recommended by apple, recommended by samsung, recommended by fucking amazon. That's where it's going. So we just need to do the best we can for now and then hope the fucking god we've done good by our congruency, our transparency in our client relationships so that we can survive that way. But I promise you, in the next five to ten years everything in our space will be one click.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see it going that way. I mean, I was amazed a year ago I was in California and I went to a Whole Foods and they had like a Palm Pay. Like what the fuck is this? I still haven't done that, but now I see it everywhere Palm Pay man.
Speaker 2:I grew up on a farm around Amish people. They were like can't believe they see cars, like everything. But I'm telling you, everything's amazing. It was amazing when I had a Tamagotchi. I couldn't believe that thing would just poop and I had to feed it. Everything's changing Tamagotchi. What the hell was a Tamagotchi? It was those little key chains. You never had one of those. You never got bullied in high school then. Anyway, apple Pay is a great case study to show you how. Look at how banking FDIC assured, fdic assured finances through your Apple Pay this is like real deal banking through Apple. Apple is now a bank.
Speaker 2:So people aren't realizing that at some point Facebook, Apple you know everything is they're going to take our industry. I'm seeing it in five. You're going to be looking for fucking shoes on Amazon and say do you want Medicare? One click because they're already handled their shit with the government or whatever. Everything is heading towards convenience.
Speaker 2:Our industry is driven by younger kids who've had convenience since they were five years old. These are the kids that are going to lead our next generation. Kids that have had a tablet since they were five. Kids that were served our refi ads and our roofing ads when they were five trying to play Angry Birds. These kids aren't going to fucking fill out a form. They're not going to fucking call an agent. Why the fuck would they do that? They're going to fucking Apple Pay health insurance. They're going to Apple Pay auto insurance and they're going to Apple Pay fucking Medicare. That's where it's going, and we just got to hope for the best. I guess the moral of the story is I'm saying we're making a lot of money right now in this industry. Let's keep it going, let's stay transparent. Everyone, stop fucking each other over, talk about your margins, be more honest and be more creative and I think we'll be okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bro, this is deep shit, man. It's true, it's an evolution. At the end of the day, selling books, yes, who the fuck would have predicted back then? And they were going into Barnes and going? All these people aren't even in Visit Walton. But I don't know all these fucking guys. And now look at them, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Apple Pay thing, like I said, it's such a great case study because it's FDIC insured, it's a bank. Yeah, your Apple Pay is a bank. You know it's turning the one click. And now the you know the great e-com stores. You know it's connected to your Apple Pay and, like the conversion rates, everything is converting. Look at VR, everything is converting into.
Speaker 2:You're just going to fucking think shit and you're going to convert and you're going to have push buttons and you're going to convert. No one's going to be like oh, this is a sick landing landing page. Let me fill out this so I can get a new roof. Yeah, it's like. No, I can already tell that you're on amazon shopping for roofing tools. Click here and you get a roof. You know, and you go through your process like it's gonna be through amazon, it's gonna be through apple, it's gonna be through samsung, it's gonna happen. And I think that the more that we get on board with communication and figuring out how the fuck to keep this cack low and stay on board and keep these advertisers happy, the more that maybe we'll get to play the game in 10 years and the fact of the matter is, I've seen it.
Speaker 1:I've been in call centers and outbound dialing since 2005. Every year, I swear, the contact rates get lower and lower and lower and lower.
Speaker 2:People don't want to answer the fucking phones anymore yeah, I got into the call center business through calling some of those trip lines. That's how I found out about it trip lines.
Speaker 1:What the hell is that I?
Speaker 2:don't know those 800 numbers that were. Oh yeah, yeah, they were. They came on right after real sex. Nice like the between. Howard stern, are you having a good time? Call 1-800. I didn't know I was calling into connection holdings, but yo, I saw a di.
Speaker 1:Warwick was a di. No miss cleo. I saw some shit on instagram like 90s or she was some other.
Speaker 2:She was a next level man I'm not gonna lie like my parents have disowned me because I have stayed on those lines for way too long, you're doing market research. That was the first time I was ever a trucker. You know, if you stay on one of those call lines for too long, you become a trucker. You know, if you're on an 800 line for like four and a half to 10 minutes, you're a trucker. That has been a long ride fuck it, man.
Speaker 1:It is what it is.
Speaker 2:That's a terrible change, and we're gonna cut that out for sure no, that's all.
Speaker 1:That's good. That's that's the point of the show. We need that truckers. Oh well, I won't I going with that. But obviously the contact rates keep going lower and lower. Man, the bottom line is that it's the young generation. They don't want to talk on the fucking phone.
Speaker 2:There's something where they're scared to talk on the phone that's because the congruency, the lack of congruency if I tell you the shit's fucking weird but it works. But you just got to be on the phone when somebody, when they call in or somebody calls them, they're going to be prepared to be on the phone. You know advertisers, I think the advertisers, you know buyers are lazy and sometimes media buyers and content creators are lazy too. You know, I see the trend. We just all need to work harder together, work around the consumer, because you don't have to promise free groceries and like you're going to win a fucking free PT cruiser, like you get a PT cruise, like no Oprah works for sure. But you know you don't have to do that. You just have to allude the lifestyle, because that's proper marketing.
Speaker 2:Everything in marketing falls in one of the five vanity. You know fear. It's like you can still do your job that's been around for thousands of years and you can allude to certain things that are going to create better metrics. But you got to be a bit more honest. And then advertisers have to also be more understanding of what it's going to take to navigate that transition of aggression and compliance. Yep, transparency.
Speaker 1:So I'm about transparency, guys, communication. This shit was deep. We went down levels, man. We got deep, deep as hell, and I love what you said about the future, what you're seeing as the future, what's going on.
Speaker 2:I don't know shit, though, to be honest. I mean listen it could be wrong, but I feel like that's where it's going.
Speaker 1:I agree with you and at the end, listen, it's good to hear different perspectives and what it comes down to. But what you said about, yeah, landing pages People don't want to answer the fucking phone anymore, they don't want to put their information, They'd rather call in or they'd rather do some AI tool and text and get converted. I mean just even think about.
Speaker 2:I was just, I was at a bar, it was a younger scene. And if you even think about, even in Europe, the way that they brought about the tap to pay Like this is a. You're dealing with a generation of kids who have never, ever in their life lost their debit card Because they don't know what it's like. You want to keep it open or closed and then they forget their fucking card. Then you know their life is ruined, whatever. They'll never understand because, beep, you tap to pay. If you don't think that that is going to snowball into every aspect of life for that generation, then you're out of your fucking mind, because all of those thought leaders in that generation are gonna be like why the fuck am I filling out health insurance when I can beep? Why the fuck am I filling out medicare when I get like dude it's? It's exactly where it's gonna go. I see it.
Speaker 2:These kids are privileged. They don't understand what it's like to deal with old technology, so they're not going to carry it into the future. When in the history of human civilization have we ever carried old technology into the future? Never. So it's going to change and I swear I know it. I just I know it.
Speaker 2:Everything in this direct response space, similar to e-com, is because it's going to become a beep and it's going to all be about who's the most compliant, who's the most willing to play ball and get involved with these big, you know monopolies and eventually, like how everyone got cracked down on medicare, we're gonna have crackdowns from samsung, apple, because we're all going to fall in line so that we can get more money from our beep. Because then you're going to have crackdowns from Samsung, apple, because we're all going to have to fall in line so that we can get more money from our beep. Because then you're going to have guys like Connections Holdings and all these companies are like oh, I'm making money over here, I haven't gotten certified with the beep yet. Now you can beep and get a roof, you know, now you can beep and get health insurance, you can beep and get Medicare, and then you're going to be fighting for that, the same way that a lot of people transition from lead form to paper call as of recently, and the main reason is because of the call centers being aware of the ad angle, because lead form wasn't working, because you're outbounding on some aggressive ass ad and they weren't trained killers in the call center.
Speaker 2:So they started training killers in the call center and everyone that was a shady advertiser in the Medicare, the healthcare space or whatever auto insurance everyone transitioned over to paper call so that they could at least make a dollar, because advertisers are making money and publishers are trying to make money too. I mean, everyone's just trying to make a living and you know, I think that that's always going to be the case. But everyone needs to be prepared for compliance and prepared for a one-tap in every aspect of our industry. Every vertical will turn to a one-tap on your phone. It will.
Speaker 1:Deep shit, bro. I feel like I fucking I don't know what. I went to a master class by Einstein or some shit man in a robe.
Speaker 2:I am technically. Einstein, if you're very ironic, I'm a college dropout with like an IQ of seven. I'm bad.
Speaker 1:You're another level of rope. So transparency, convenience, some big shit over here. Miles, it was a fucking pleasure. How can people find out more about you man?
Speaker 2:Leadnomics Leadnomicscom. Backslash Miles. Sign up. You're probably already working with me, but if you're not sign up, uh, I love you guys and also my music. You guys know I'm always posting it. Melissa mal issa, follow me on spotify youtube. I made the industry industry theme song geek out.
Speaker 1:Let's do it, baby. Fucking love it. Man. Cheers, Cheers to you. Let's fucking go. Let's fucking go baby. Let's fucking go David.
Speaker 4:Let's go, david, to top athletic and celebrity doctors. We've got it all covered. We're talking to guys who've cashed in for billions with a, b and the best thing is we're just getting started. So hold on tight. We're about to crank it up a notch. Get ready for next level networking and masterminds within the LFG community. Scare money, don't make no money, or honey. Hit the subscribe button, drop a like, leave a comment and let's fucking go.