The LFG Show
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The LFG Show
Lead Generation to Legacy: Anthony Sandrea's Journey to a $70M Exit
đ„ From Zero to $70 Million: Anthony Sandreaâs Exit Playbook đ„
Anthony Sandrea doesnât just talk about successâhe lived it. From spotting hidden gold mines in Medicare when no one else was looking, to calling the auto insurance comeback YEARS before it happened⊠this is straight-up entrepreneurial chess, not checkers.đâïž
đĄ What separates real players from the wannabes?
đ Working ON your business instead of drowning IN it.
đ Building lean, elite teams where every âA playerâ owns a piece of the mission.
đ Finding deeper meaningâbecause in Anthonyâs world, lead gen isnât just leads⊠itâs about fixing the divorce rate by helping people out of debt. đ
And when the $70M check cleared? đž He didnât blow it on toys. He went into financial fasting modeâselling the flashy cars and doubling down on purpose. Now heâs guiding $10M+ companies as a fractional CMO and coach, helping them scale without losing their soul.
đ If youâre serious about exits, scaling lean, or spotting market shifts before the herd, this episode is your roadmap.
đ„ Big shoutout to Ringbaâthe #1 call tracking platform in the game and our day-one sponsor of The LFG Show. If youâre in pay-per-call and not on Ringba yet, youâre already behind.
đ„ Hit play, get inspired, and remember: No Money, No Honey. đŻđ"
Timestamps:
boom guys, we're here. We're doing some new stuff, we're popping some cherries. Today, one of the lfg show. I'm in fort lauderdale right now. We're in a new studio doing our first podcast in studio and we got industry legend anthony sandrea here. He's in your scottsdale anthony, scottsdale brother at home, scottsdale a Arizona. He's one of my favorite people in the industry and people that know you I mean I think they all say the same thing You're very, very humble, very genuine. You've helped a lot of people, helped me out tremendously and I'm excited to have you on the show and we don't normally do virtual shows, we like to do them face-to-face. For so long and I'm like let's just do it, man, because I feel like you're doing some great stuff. You've done some great stuff, you're continuing to do great stuff and I feel like it's a very value added for our audience to learn about what you're doing. So let's, I'm so excited to have you on the show, man.
Speaker 2:Thanks, brother, Thanks for having me. I love seeing you too, brother. I love the energy Always always good, Always good.
Speaker 1:It's all about that, Right? So I guess let's start off here, Cause this is the big thing, and I know you probably you might be tired of talking about this and maybe you're not. I mean, I think that you know, as people in our industry affiliate marketers, people in lead generation, business owners, whatever you want to say a small percentage of people actually exit their companies, whether you're a lead generation or anything. I think it's less than 1%. It might be a 10th of 1%, and you had the fortune to be able to do that right. So I want to talk about that because I feel like our industry, there's a lot of beautiful things about this.
Speaker 1:I was in Puerto Rico at a mastermind two months ago. I spoke and I asked a question right when I got up the stage. I'm like, how many of you guys love Legion? Everyone raised their hands right. And I said how many of you guys hate Legion? And they all raised their hands right.
Speaker 1:It's one of these industries that is a love-hate right, and it's because there's so many ups and downs, there's so many obstacles and there's a lot of things you got to navigate and I think that you were able to kind of climb the top and actually enter the company for a very significant figure. I mean, you've talked about the $70 million, right? So, like, how did that feel, man? And I think that also. I love that you did that, because it gives hope to other people that, hey, you can do that too, Because I think a lot of people don't think they can do it. I didn't think it was possible. I was close, I had exit opportunity. You helped me out with that and I was like, holy shit, this is really happening, man. So let's talk about all of that. I know that's a lot of information to unpack.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, thank you for that. And again, too, I'll say, first off, you know my mom growing up. Despite being five foot nine, I wanted to play in the NBA and she's like you got to work really hard and you also have to get very. That's exactly what happened to me too. I worked my tail off, like so many people do, and I got super blessed. I got blessed with timing, I got dude. God's blessings were just abundant on every single level of my life. So let me first give credit where it's due, which is there. Secondly, yeah, it's a.
Speaker 2:You know, it's every business owner's dream, right To be able to build something that has the ability to exit. And I guess a couple things would be good to talk about. One is how to get there, and really the right answer is getting yourself out of the weeds to where you're working on the business not in the business and having a great team that's able to run the day to day for the company. And that doesn't mean you go retire on a beach and hang out and go party all day long, but it means you're not the one launching the ads, you're not the one talking to the customers. You may still be at least I was still heavy on the sales, attracting new customers and networking and trying to understand what the new industry or space should be in.
Speaker 2:I mean, you asked why I was able to exit. It's because I wasn't in the weeds. I was able to go to a now everybody's in Medicare, but I was able to go to a Medicare conference and I was the only lead generation person there. I was taking notes and I'm learning and I'm learning. The space is good. Well, wait a sec.
Speaker 2:90% of policies used to be handshake deals. Now they're moving online. Okay, great, that's a great, you know, great great movement for us. But at the same time, that means that they're shopping more often. So what's the LTV going to look like that customer eventually? So I was able to glean those insights to be able to say, okay, you know what, this might be the right time to go for an exit and again, I wasn't totally foresightful on that, but that's a good example of being able to see what's coming over the next 12 months and be able to react to that, to be in the next space to be in or to iterate the business properly or, in this case, was to actually go through a formal transaction and sell the company. So it's getting yourself out of the day-to-day and the weeds of the business so you can work on the business. That's number one, first and foremost, by far.
Speaker 1:It's a lot easier said than done and there's been times I'll tell you my personal'm gonna be vulnerable here, right. So you and I, I've known you for many, many years and we spoke back in 20 and 2023. I had companies they approached us to to buy our company and you, you were very gracious man, you gave me your investment bakers to talk to, gave me tons of great advice, right and um, what happened is funny because as I got out of the weeds, it's like the company started to go the other way. So, you know, and I had it's funny because I had to get back in the weeds to kind of fix things and, uh, you know, so it's it's a lot easier said than done and I'll tell you, one of the issues we had is that when we hired people like especially high level I don't know if you call them ceo, ceos like high level, c level executives, it backfired for us, right, and I don't know why that happened.
Speaker 1:Maybe we didn't train properly, I don't know what, what that happened. So I'm kind of nervous to do that. I feel like I've gotten myself out of the weeds, like I wasn't able to go to europe for three and a half weeks. Right, the business ran itself.
Speaker 1:I was grateful for that yes um, but like it's a lot easier said than done, right. So I like what's your advice on that, hearing my story and my struggle, and I feel like that's other people's troubles too.
Speaker 2:And now listen, a couple of things. One is you know and I'm not suggesting you did this, but you know, getting out of the weeds, get your hands off the keyboard does not mean take your eyes off the person with the hands on the keyboard. If that makes sense and I'm not suggesting you did we say, okay, we hired the COO or the CEO Cool, let me go look over here. Right, and a lot of businesses, we're all marketers, so this might be funny for us. But like when I used to be in the agency, you know a law firm or a lawyer would hire me on a retainer and they'd be like, cool, my marketing's all figured out. That's absolutely not the right thing to do is just say, cool, let me, let me go turn. So it's still keeping eyes on Um. Number two is I would say I had um, someone tell me years ago if I could hire somebody 70% as good as me. That was the goal, so it helped me relinquish control tremendously. And um, when I bring someone on, they watch me. Then I watch them, then they monitor. So over the first week they're just shadowing me, as an example. Then the next week I'm just shadowing them and then after that I'm now checking in. I might be checking in hourly to start, and then twice a day, and then daily and then weekly, and then you know eventually monthly or whatever it is, but my argument would be probably the wrong person on the bus at that time.
Speaker 2:Secondly would be you know, if I were to, you know, what would I do now in businesses that I invest in or advise for is tie team members into equity to where they are owners within the company and it doesn't need to be significant percentage and it can vest over a time period. So 5% ownership that vests over five years. So they get 1% per year. It's based on time merit or performance merit. So now that individual in the company treats it like it's their business because it is their business. And I remember being on a call at Mark Cuban years ago. We're in a small group setting, maybe a hundred of us and he said you're an idiot if you're not giving equity to your team members. And I didn't have the guts at that time to actually make a move on it. So now I'm preaching something I didn't even practice in my last business, but it is something very much I apply moving forward when I'm advising and investing in businesses and I see these team members turn into entrepreneurs and owners of the company and then really get to drive it forward.
Speaker 2:So I guess one would be making them owners of the business. Number one while there's still ability, if they're not performing or if they're not there long enough, you know you're not giving away 90% of the company as an example, so that's the time vested or merit vested. And then, secondly, is is when you're onboarding or training someone you know, um, you know, I remember my first bookkeeper stole for me, right, okay, my uh first assistant uh lied about how many hours she was working, like the. The challenge is when we touch the stove and it's hot oftentimes we don't want to go touch the stove again, um, because we're afraid it's going to be on. But if we want to get to a certain level, like if you want to have a hundred million dollar exit or grow the business to $20 million in EBITDA, we eventually have to dive back into that and try it again and we have to say what did we learn in that process?
Speaker 2:What could we have done better as entrepreneurs and what did we learn went wrong? Did we make the wrong hire because of one, two, three? Did I not onboard them correctly, did I not watch them correctly? Did I not set expectations, did I not tie them into the end results or align interests on this, because otherwise we're stuck. So when we get in these levels and I've been there too is we get in these levels of just like got it, I got burnt and now I'm scared to do it? The reality is, we're damned if we do, damned if we don't.
Speaker 2:At this point, because you're damned if you do, because you're afraid it's gonna happen again, damned if you don't because the business you can't grow. The business can't grow, you can't grow as a leader unless you dive back in. So my unfortunate but exciting response is you have to go for it again, you. You have to see what you learn from it and you have to apply lessons to this second time. And it might take two, three, four, five times before you get the right person. But when you do, when you have the right and I've been blessed I've had the right CFO in place, I've had the right head of media in place, I've had the right person managing the clients in place. I've had the right customer success coordinator who's calling back customers, getting testimonials, managing comments. It back customers, getting testimonials, managing comments. It's very beautiful to see that well oiled ship machine running, with or without you there and you want to be there so that you can keep guiding the direction.
Speaker 2:But really, at the end my job was to point hey, we're going to go in this direction or this direction, and it was to help a little bit on the media side, help a little bit on the customer um, uh, management side, help a little bit on the sales side, but really, like I was able to time to exit because I was able to go like this, I wasn't like this. I was able to go from debt settlement to credit repair and credit repair to Medicare. I won't call myself the first mover in either of those spaces, but certainly I remember when I was one of the only affiliates in debt and then we were the largest affiliate in credit repair and then in either of those spaces. But certainly I remember when I was one of the only affiliates in debt and then we were the largest affiliate in credit repair and then we were one of the first movers, not the first mover, one of the first movers in Medicare as well too.
Speaker 2:Versus when competition, you know, kind of swoops in so in order to get to that next level, you have to go for it again. You have to learn from your past. You know what happened in the past and apply and moving forward. Otherwise you'll never grow. You'll be right where you are in stagnant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think Gary Vaynerchuk is something similar that you know. When you hired, I think, at business lawyers we will complain. We're like, oh, I have a friend, we have a, we have a mutual friend. One time he said to me Dave man, it's funny less patient, he became right Because he had so many employees, he got over past 100. And I would see this guy, this very charismatic guy, and they're like he'd be pissed off. I'm like this guy's making a lot. Why the fuck is he pissed off all the time? Right, I'd be so happy for him.
Speaker 1:And then later on, when I became an entrepreneur, I was like, damn, now I see what he was talking about, right, and I think what it comes down to is that you got to hope that you hire someone. They're not going to be you right, 70, 80 percent you'll take that right. But then I think the reason is because they don't own it right, they don't have what's, they're not vested. So if you do give them that and you made me think, I know a couple, as you were saying that, a couple other friends of mine that had nice exits and home improvement in that vertical. They did the same thing. One of my buddies, like he just deluded himself. He gave people pieces, and then they did the work for me. He would go on these roadshows which you probably did too and meet with these heavy hitters, and then he was able to exit his company too. So, as you said that I always say, success leaves clues, right, boom. I mean, it's a lot easier said than done, I think.
Speaker 2:But you just dropped a lot of good knowledge there, including myself learned from. Thank you, thanks, david. I'll say, um, what I do think I did very well. My last business now I'll preach what I practice was I painted the vision of where we're going and what we're actually doing here.
Speaker 2:When you're doing leads and clicks and freaking, trying to get your payout up, and it's monotonous and it's very purposeless. When you make it, um, I had a. I had a guy that, for like 10 hours a week, would solicit testimonials and who were they? For One? Yeah, we'd use them for ads, but we would really use it for the team to see the impact they're making. And so I remember when we were in debt settlement, I wouldn't say we're in lead gen, I'd tell the team we're fixing the divorce rate in the country. When you start thinking that way and you start communicating that way and it feels like foo-foo and it feels maybe like for somebody listening, maybe like okay, eye roll, I truly believe we were helping fix the divorce rate in the country. And when I had that conviction my team had that conviction when we had people sending in testimonials talking about how they got an extra 50 bucks a month which allowed them to go out to dinner the one time a month. Holy shit, is that impactful? Versus I'm doing clicks and leads and this and this. So imagine showing up as a team member and having that much purpose in your day, in your life. That's freaking an exciting community to be a part of. That's an exciting team to be a part of. That's exciting leader to work for and company to help grow and be a part of. So when they're showing up for a job versus they're, they're pushing a mission forward. By the way, you know, same thing goes for credit bearers, same thing goes for Medicare. It could go for anything.
Speaker 2:I remember having a landscaper I've told this story before where he's like Anthony, okay, I got one for you. I got the most boring business on the planet. I cut grass for a living and we dove in. What do you do? What do you do? What do you do? We finally got to.
Speaker 2:He gives dads back his Saturdays. He started putting a ticker and he had. By the way, he had recruitment issues because people would go if they got paid 50 cents more. They'd go work somewhere else. He had customer retention issues because people would come knock doors and say, hey, I'll cut your grass for $10 cheaper a month. And they'd switch when he started communicating I give you back time with your kids and my employees. You go tell them hey, you give dads back their Saturday.
Speaker 2:He had a ticker in his office how many hours he gives dads back his Saturdays. They'd go knock doors and say, hey, could you use more time with your kids? The whole owner's like what Are you a missionary? What are you trying to preach here? No, no, no. I cut grass and my job is to give you back more time. What else are you spending time on landscaping that I can give you back more time on?
Speaker 2:That's where you attract the best customers that have customer brand loyalty, that's where you get the best talent to come on board and that's where you have an organization hello that you are excited to get up for every single day. So if you want to know the real spirit, the real answer to our success, it's because we instilled that mission that we were getting up for every day. We weren't in lead gen and clicks and payout and of course those were all elements of it, but we were tracking towards and moving towards somewhere. It's a very fun environment. And then the last thing I'll say, a players love working for A players and being around other A players. The best way to get rid of an A player is have a B or C player in your organization. So you have to be ruthless, ripping someone out that is a C or B player, because an A player will not stand and stick around that. So the other reason why I believe we were successful is we were a very lean team of A players. And A players love running and playing, just like I love basketball.
Speaker 2:If someone on my team's a dud, I don't like playing with them. I don't want to play. I don't want to show up for pickup when I've got duds on my team. When I've got four studs some even better than me, holy cow, I want to practice harder. I want to show up ready to go and I'm ready to play dude. And it's the same thing for your organization. You have to ruthlessly rip out people that are not A players. You have to work. You said your buddy same thing work to go, attract A players. And that's a fun environment to work in a fun growth environment where you're around other A players. So A players plus the mission and communicating that mission to yourself first off. So you're excited every day. Two to your team and three to your customers is ultimately why I believe we were successful.
Speaker 1:In terms of A players, how do you attract them or recruit them? We tried. We had people who Medana, exited other companies or CEOs, and we brought them to our team. It just didn't work right, for whatever reason and I'm not saying it could have been a lot of different reasons and you make me think a lot here but what was your strategy to attract those people you recruited from other companies and how did you make sure like kind of increase the probability of chances that it would actually work?
Speaker 2:you put a structure in place where they have ability to earn what they want to earn. Let's talk about the finances that everybody talks about as well too. So you know, on a new vertical, if you get, you know, a 5% profit share whatever that is it gives them ability to go earn that Two. You talk about where we're headed in the future. So we're not just here for status quo, we're not just here to grow. Here's where we're actually going. Here's our roadmap. It's very methodical and thought out again. It's a forecast, so it's made up. So of course, you're like but it it what it does is it communicates the level of thinking you put into where the company's going. So, even though we're a forecast is nothing but a made up where you're headed. It by spending time putting together not only a financial forecast but a roadmap on where the business is going. It shows your intentionality to your team and shareholders as far as where you're headed.
Speaker 2:And then, outside of that, an A player wants to work for an A player. So you yourself have to consistently be elevating how you are as a leader. You have to consistently educating yourself on podcasts, books, courses, coaching, whatever that is, because people want to work for somebody who is going to push them to grow. Sorry, an A player wants to work for somebody who's going to push them to grow, so you yourself, as a leader, have to grow. So, communicating the vision of where the company is going, putting a structure in place where they have ability to hit their goals Three you need to elevate yourself as a leader so that they have ability to hit their goals Three. You need to elevate yourself as a leader so that they want to come work for you.
Speaker 1:You mentioned how you were able to. You got into Medicare way before other lead generators did. Many, many years ago. Right, you go to these conferences. There weren't other people there and you took full advantage of that. You were in debt pretty early. You caught that wave. I think that that's been one of your keys. And also I'll say this I don't know how long this was, I don't know if it was a year and a half or two years ago. Auto was not doing well, auto was in the dumps, but you were telling people it's going to come back. It'll come back within I don't know three, six months, and sure enough it came back. A lot of guys put massive numbers in order. Like what do you attribute your ability to be able to spot those up and coming verticals before other people and get that first mover advantage?
Speaker 2:First I'll say, in touching on first mover advantage and this doesn't mean to be insulting or derogatory to anyone, it's actually Warren Buffett's statement. He says in every space there's three eyes. There's innovators. They're the first movers. They don't usually make very much money. They're the first movers, they don't usually make very much money. They're the napsters of the world, but they change an industry. It's great what they do, but they don't usually get capitalized. There's then imitators. There's people that do it 1% better, a little bit different. They reap all the financial benefit. And then the last one is there's idiots, and I don't mean that to be rude, that's Warren Buffett's quote. There's idiots and he said when there's idiots in your space, you need to get out. And that's where you know, in a nicer way said, when it's become oversaturated, that's where you start seeing people run fraudulent advertising and boom and boom and boom and it's a race to the bottom. You're picking up pennies, busting your butt because you're in a space that's oversaturated. You know, or you know, to put it nicer. So you consistently in every whether it's Legion or whether you have a flooring company or whatever it is you consistently have to be innovating because the money is made before.
Speaker 2:I remember it used to be cool to be a dropshipper. Now it's cool to be a lead generator, right. And I remember sitting back like five, six years ago I mean like no, sorry, this is maybe longer than that. Seven or eight years ago I'm like, how is a paper call not like a blown up space, like this feels so much more obvious than customer, than returns and the fulfillment? I'm literally moving air, I'm moving calls and of course, now it's oversaturated, in my humble opinion. So, to answer your question, how you stay ahead of it, that was, quite literally, if you asked me, my role, my role was to go network it's who you know, not what you know and educate myself.
Speaker 2:So I would go to like, for instance, like in this case you asked, auto insurance like how did I know that? I would go to auto insurance conferences that lead generators aren't going to. I would reach out to people at LinkedIn that work at all the auto insurance companies and I would learn about the product, the lifestyle, the market cycle, the overall lifetime value, how it works, how to agent, commission, commissions work. I would intimately learn a space. I would do it for multiple spaces I would do. I did it in a reverse mortgage which didn't end up being a success. I would do it.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to uh, you know I did a mortgage in general and it wasn't a success, and I could probably name, you know, no-transcript direct the ship to make sure it's not. It's not in the way and, by the way, recruit talent to get on onto the ship. That's the most important role in the company. It's not running ads, it's not talking to the customer Um, it's, it's that. And ultimately, again, you need both of those in order to be able to do that. I'm not saying to leave those to the side and, you know, blindly, go, go, go, go off and start networking.
Speaker 2:But it was putting myself in the right educational spaces and multiple spaces and it was creating the space and time to be able to go explore. You know, I used to have a saying at my company and I'd say it to my C-level, you know, guys, and I'd say and any of them can validate this, I've been saying it for over a decade I'd said if we can get it to where we're staring at a wall for three hours a day, we're doing something good. Now, that's that esoteric thing that we're chasing. That will never actually hit. But if we can try and work ourselves out of a job at every single level by automations, ai, by people. Where we can spend more time as thinkers, that's where we're going to win. And where we can spend more time as thinkers, that's where we're going to win. And I don't just want myself to spend time thinking. I want my high-level team members to be spending time thinking as well too, so we can all ultimately spot where the next place is. So it's getting the day-to-day monotonous tasks off your plate and being able to be in a space to be able to go network, to be able to go learn as far as what's coming next's coming next, and and um, we becoming an expert at. You know, you and I both are Tony Robbins guys a pattern recognition, so recognizing cycles in different spaces and recognizing a pattern of why something might be a lull today versus here.
Speaker 2:So auto insurance, for instance. I learned, uh and I'll cut you hundreds of hours worth of learning and, of course, probably cats out of the bag. Now, if we talked a year ago, you'd be like that's very interesting. Maybe we did. I learned that the reason it was in such a suppressed market is because there are rate increases that need to be approved at government levels.
Speaker 2:And what happened during COVID is there were not a lot of claims because people weren't driving. So these auto insurance companies were just printing cash, making hand over fist profit. So now, when it came time, inflation came and car parts were more expensive. All these auto insurance companies now have to pay out on these claims. And they're paying on claims with the bumpers more expensive than it was two years ago. So they're going to the legislation going hey, I need to be able to raise my prices because it's a federally mandated product. It's federally mandated. I need or it might be federally, sorry, it's government mandated you have to have auto insurance or it's illegal. So when they went back, the legislature said no, no, no, you were printing cash during COVID. Use some of that money. I'm not going to let you approve things no-transcript.
Speaker 2:And that's where a lead generator has an opportunity to go make money. But if you wait until your barber is talking about it, it's too late. It's too late. The money's already been made and I'd have friends that didn't even know anything about lead. I mean, I'm going to get in this ACA thing. It's too late. There's no money to be made there, unless unless you want to be start running fraudulent traffic, so and, and a race to the bottom, so, um. Anyway, the um short answer is having the space to go learn those, study trends, recognize patterns and not be head down 10 hours a day in the ad account or be handling a client call at 5 pm on a Saturday because their CPAs jumped $10. That's the true answer.
Speaker 1:You got to have your head down to get to this level, but it's about levels, right. Then you have to go to the next level and you have to hire properly and you have to do this and do that. There's so many aspects of that and I want to touch upon a little bit of a little bit further down the road here on this interview. But, uh, before we do that, you, there was something you said I don't know if this was a geek out in beverly hills uh, do you? You had you had spoken there and you said something that I thought was very interesting, something unique that no one ever talked about. You talked about in this really spawning trends that you would go to like earnings calls for companies. I mean a lot of these companies we work with or we sell to or they're probably traded, right, they have earnings calls, they have to report their earnings and you would use that to unearth information.
Speaker 1:I think that people also in our industry not any industry, they don't there's information out there that you have to find out where to get that information. That information is what can turn to the next big idea, right? Or to help you collapse timeframe. So can you talk more about that, because I don't think anyone is actually doing. I took your advice. I remember I listened. I don't have made a killing, especially with solar, the way it was going, but the bottom line is that I thought that's something no one ever talked about Like wow, that is next level information that you've given out there. So can you talk about more about that and how you use that?
Speaker 2:I would say so, first off, the tactic, of course, is listening to publicly traded companies earnings calls, because they get to talk about exactly because they're publicly traded, they have to share their financials, where they're making money and their roadmap to go make more money. Hello, awesome, for a customer to tell me where they were making money and where they're going to go make more money gold, right. Another way to do that, if they're not publicly traded again, is go on LinkedIn, message someone that works at the company not in the marketing department, lead generation department and ask say, hey, I just want to learn more about the company. Can I pay you for some coaching? Can I pay you 50 bucks an hour, 100 bucks an hour for some coaching? Hey, what are some of the initiatives you guys focus on? This, this, this, this, this. That's where you get the intel to be able to work and create products and services and solutions that ultimately solve the problems that the company's foreseeing they're going to have in the future, whether that's a new lead gen space, or whether that's how they're acquiring customers, or whatever that is. So that's the tactic.
Speaker 2:The strategy is changing your identity from I'm a run-and-gun affiliate printing cash, going to party on a yacht, to I'm a business person, I'm a business owner and I'm going to professionalize my life and I'm going to professionalize how I look at my company. So I'm going to spend less time studying how to get my CPMs down on Facebook. I'm going to spend more time reading business books and how to scale a business and that's ultimately. I'm going to spend time with business owners that own businesses in other spaces, um, versus going to an affiliate conference and going to drink my my face off for four days. By the way, I'm not judging. I've. I've been in those mental identities in my career. I'm just saying you asked what the shift is. The shift was saying I'm going to run a business and I'm going to be a business owner and professional business. I'm not going to be a kid, I'm not going to be uh, uh, you know a run. I'm not going to identify as an affiliate, Um, and that that you know, uh, makes quick cash online or an internet marketer.
Speaker 2:And I think when you change that identity with yourself, you start learning one the tremendous benefits we have with the internet and the tremendous benefits we have as being an affiliate. It's incredible. I think it's an incredible space to be in. There's so many challenges other businesses face that we don't have to solve for. So, one, it gives you a deep appreciation for the space we're in. Two, it helps you understand some of those challenges that the businesses that we're selling leads to are facing, and it starts making you think holistically on the customer's journey or the business relationship you're having in partnership with the person buying your leads. It's not a transactional marketer and a transactional buyer, it's a business. It's a partnership between you and the person you're selling leads to, and you start to have business conversations and communication that ultimately allow you to grow to the next level. So the tactic yes, the strategy is to change your identity to be a business person and a business owner, not an affiliate internet marketer. You know that. Go and go and print in cash and blow it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at the end of the day, we're all salespeople, right? Regardless of what your title is, you're, you're selling something. Yeah, I think that we have to differentiate ourselves in some capacity, and I think I tell this all the time and I train my team this don't always hit up your client to sell them leads. You'll provide value, whether that's informational value. There might be a new policy going on, and if they're in a certain state that's in effect and they might not be aware of that policy, give them that information. Hey, did you see this? If you know, don't get in trouble, but just keep them aware of what's going on. You're just not just a lead vendor as transaction. You're providing value for them, and I think that when you immerse yourself and you get to really know the industry and know what's going on, you can provide that value. You can give them that information. You're going to separate yourself from 99% of people out there, right? And I think that's what you were able to do successfully.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then another thing you mentioned Mark Cuban before, which I find fascinating, and I think I might know the answer to this. I think we were both able to that proximity is power, right? How did?
Speaker 2:you get the proximity to Mark Cuban? Oh, it was through a business group. I think it was a EO or YPO or one of these. So it was in a business group. So it was paying for access, for lack of a better word. So now I'm in a group called Tiger 21. That same thing it's mostly people that have had a liquidity event that now it's how to manage their investment portfolios. That's their new business today. For most of these people as well, too, including myself, it's a second business for me, which is the assets I've accumulated to be able to manage those, to produce more crops, if you will, for lack of better words.
Speaker 2:But listen, you work your way up the chain, right, I started messaging people off LinkedIn for coffee. Anyone could be a good. Literally, I was going to meet anyone who would have coffee with me. And you're laughing. You're like well, that's not that directional. No, you're right. So I started that. Then I would get more directional on who I wanted to meet with. Then I would join an EO accelerator group, which is businesses doing zero to 250,000. Then I elevated to EO, which was a million dollar plus business, then YPO $13 million.
Speaker 2:Now you know, tiger 21 is a $20 million liquid net worth plus. But you work your way up those rankings and you get that by talking to better and better and stronger, stronger people. So I'm a huge proponent in paying for coaching. At the end of the day, paying for coaching, whether that's going for courses or consultants or whatever that looks like. And you know, in those examples I gave you, those are all peer-to-peer coaching. But you know, tony Robbins Platinum Partner Group was a group you know it was six figures plus a year that I invested in to learn and I invested in myself and I paid for access. And then guess what? All the people in that group are also paying $100,000, which are probably some pretty good people to now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in that group are also paying $100,000, which are probably some pretty good people to know. Yeah, yeah, Right, and so anyway, yeah, I think you work your way up the rankings, but being able to invest in yourself and invest in your network and invest in your access is ultimately how you know you continue to get to know the right people. That can cut the learning curve for you, for sure.
Speaker 1:Obviously you had a successful exit right. It was high, eight figures, and I think that the perception of people is hey, you do that, all of a sudden you're going to, you know, buy a few Ferraris, or do buy this thing or that thing. And I heard you on I believe it was John Castle, a good friend of ours on the Bulletproof Scaling where you mentioned that you know you've done that in the past. You had your, I think your have a Clarence, and then these cars and you're more comfortable. You like your Tesla, right, you like your. I forgot the model you have.
Speaker 1:It's not like a crazy model, but like you feel better driving that Tesla than you. Just this fancy car. Like you got to worry, right, it's more stress. Like this thing gets blown out, it might get, it might get stolen, like there's so much crap that goes along with it. Where it probably you're able to, you can't focus on what you want to focus on, right? So I just find that amazing. You've chosen to reinvest in yourself. I know you've given money to your alma mater, asu a good amount of money to them and donated to them. So you've invested and continue to invest in yourself. You're not blowing it on material items. Can we talk about that? Yeah?
Speaker 2:To your point. No judgment there, because I, I had, I bought nice cars for for for sure. I, when the exit happened, I went through a fasting period, just like we. You know, you restrict eating for a day or a week or three days, or however long you're going to fast. I wanted to, um, I thought that was a pretty spirit. I think fasting is a pretty spiritual exercise, right, and it takes discipline and self-growth. So I did the same with my finances. I, my wife and I cut our spending in half. I sold my nice car.
Speaker 2:I drive a $30,000, you know model Y Tesla, which is blessed by anyone's uh, the demeanor and it doesn't mean I don't, I don't, you know, have nice things, I have a nice house and, and you know, go on nice trips. But, gosh, dude, I, I share. I had a roommate for a decade when I was making millions of dollars in profit and I was spending a thousand dollars in rent and it was just like it's this idea of delayed gratification, um, and the idea of, for me, I I'm not saying this is right for everybody and it's not the sexiest conversation, because I'm sure, rightfully so, I get it for a lot of people it's like I want to have this equity event and go get these things for me. I I, by going through that process and having that happen both pre-sale and post-sale, was I realized when I buy a new pair of shoes it's really exciting. And then the shoes kind of eventually just become another pair of shoes and then I started looking at things for the value they create versus like kind of the short-lived emotions they create. So for me, having a home that my wife's happy in and we're going to raise kids in, and now my family gets to come over and we have a pickleball court and my brothers I get to see three or four times a week that I didn't before. I get to see my dad we're going to do Christmases here and stuff. There's value there that, before you know, I think on paper you're like I want to buy a mansion, like what's the reason I'm buying it? So it's not. I'm not saying I, I'm not, I don't have nice things, it's just the reason for purchasing. It is different.
Speaker 2:And for me, when I would get in my you know lamborghini, I was a, I was afraid to scratch it, put miles on it, uh like, and I was like this is stressful. It was like so funny to think. Like I wasn't I I personally doesn't mean others won't I didn't enjoy it as much as my car. Now, my wife, freaking, backed into a thing and I was like that's why we bought this car. Baby, like I was, I was pumped about it like um. So anyway, though the the real comment there is, like I went through a fast. Uh, I still have excuse me, I've maintained it too, but uh, we went through a, a fasting exercise when it came to to finances, when others would go the other way and just um, oh, what is the book? Psychology of, of Money. It's a great book.
Speaker 1:Great book. I read the article. I listened to the article like six months ago. Talking about that lifestyle creep, I think is what he calls it.
Speaker 2:My gosh. Well, who's richer? The guy that makes $100,000 a year and spends $30,000 or the guy that makes $5 million a year and spends $6?
Speaker 2:million you'd laugh. How many people aren't even tracking their own self finances? And when they do, they go Holy cow, I made five, I spent six. Or I made five, I spent five and I forgot my taxes, you know, or whatever. I went right up to there. Gosh, I'd way rather be the guy making a hundred thousand dollars or spending 30, and you know, having no stress, not going through all that.
Speaker 2:You know you touched on all the heartache and and and tough toughness of um. You know the affiliate space for business in general, excuse me, Um, so that's my truth Doesn't mean it's everybody's and that doesn't mean to deflate somebody who wants a car. It's just, you know, the, the. I started analyzing the value and the and the sustainability of that value before making a purchase or doing something. So for me, you know, cars don't give me the value, so I don't have that a nice house where my, you know, like I, it becomes a gathering center for my, you know, three younger brothers and kids on the way and parents and extended family. There's great value there, my wife's happiness, and you know. So anyway, just evaluation of value, I think is is exercise I went through.
Speaker 1:I think it's very opposite of what, again, like most people think, and again, our industry is filled with. It's a lot of flash right and there's a lot of I don't know. It's a lot of sizzle right is what it comes down to, and it's easy to get caught up in it. You and I have been at parties in Vegas and these clubs, I don't know, the Omnias or whatever these clothes under the omnias or whatever you see bottle being popped right and you think that's what you have to do. I got sucked into that as well. We had a conversation about that like a year ago. How, like you know, you get to a point where you realize that you don't need that crap anymore. Right, it's you. You build your brand and you just gotta do what's best for you, best for your family, best for your company, and when you can reinvest that money to make more money to, to help the company grow and pay people more, that's really how you win and I think that's what helped you win, why you were able to have the exit you had, the success you have, and that's why I'm excited about we'll talk about the future what you're doing now, but I think that's why you're going to continue to have this crazy growth and success because you have that mindset Because at the end of the day it all comes down to mindset make you're going to slander it Totally, totally. Yeah, love that.
Speaker 1:So before we go into what you're doing, I want to talk one last time about this. So you're doing over 10 million EBITDA right, exit over 70 million. What did it feel like when you got that check right? I've heard this from other people there's a tool named Eric Spofford that was big in drug rehab. I don't know if you know him, but he he has this company for a big, big figure and he had a really funny, interesting answer, and that's. I didn't expect him and I'll say it after I hear your answer. But what when? When that money hit right and it went through, like what did you think?
Speaker 2:Did your feeling, let's, let's walk through that. You know, uh, the morning of, I journaled a lot and I journaled the entire journey to get here. So, um, the morning that that it was supposed it's supposed to hit, um, and I did a lot of deep reflection and a ton of gratitude and I just wrote it all out and I wrote, I wrote, um, you know, uh, really, a letter to myself about the entire journey and then, when it hit, I went on with my day, and I know that sounds funny, and maybe it's because I had already, you know, accumulated wealth from the income of the business. But I had already pre-decided that I was going to go through this, that fasting period that I mentioned, already pre decided that I was going to go through this, that fasting period that I mentioned. So I didn't want a um, you know, you and I both love this statement growth equals happiness. I wanted to.
Speaker 2:The number one thing I was most excited for was the access I knew I was going to be able to get. I knew I was going to be able to join a tiger 21,. Or I knew I was gonna be able to invest back in this, or I knew I had a gold star on me for somebody that exited their business. So I'd uh have the ability to do a cold outreach and say, hey, uh, the founders of rocket money right, sold for over a billion dollars, the three brothers there. I was like, hey, here's who I am, here's what I've done. I'd love to get on a call and just, just, you know, learn from you.
Speaker 2:And they respond, and so and and uh, and that that's what I was most excited for, was was the. I knew the access I was going to be able to reach Um once. I had that, that kind of that, that, that uh thing on my resume now. So that's, that's, that's what I get most excited for. And yeah, ultimately I uh, I I wish I had a more fun, sexy answer as far as but I guess, or did this or anything like that. But no, I very pridefully, just I was very much had been methodical about how that moment was going to feel and I approached it with, I think, a lot of intentionality. I think is the best way to say it.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's very. That's actually Eric's offer is in here. I think he had a $150 million exit and he's very similar. He, he, uh, the money hit and he just went out with his day and I think what does he keep thought about, like you did? And he, he had his whole you know visualization and what he was going to do and he already pre-planned it and it wasn't. He thought he was gonna, you know, have this crazy moment where he was gonna be like jumping off for joy and doing this and that, and it just didn't happen. You know, and it's just, it's just funny because it's the opposite what everyone thinks. You're gonna have a crazy party, you know, run out omni or run out some club and do this crazy stuff. But I guess it comes down to it comes out of habits, right? If you do that, then guess what? Then you're gonna drop 100 grand, 205 or whatever. Then the next time you do it, it's like when's enough enough, right? So I think it comes down to that, that habit, which is great.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Also, I'll say I loved my business when I sold it. I think that you know the best time to sell a business is when you don't need to like. I remember it sounds funny in hindsight cause I did just divine timing, not by my own doing, uh, by God's timing, uh on, like the deal got announced, interest rates rose two weeks later. Uh, the deal funded a week later. Like that, like, had that, had that been?
Speaker 2:A year later I don't know all my top customers their stock price went down 90 plus percent. You know that's. You know my company wasn't any any different the, the, the assets that went over. But the marketplace had changed dramatically. And that's not because I'm smart or foresaw that, that's just just god, god's, god's blessing, um and uh, yeah. So anyway, that intentionality I think is recognizing to be humble as well too and realize so much of your success is out of, not something you chose.
Speaker 2:If you were born in the United States of America, what an incredible advantage you have over the rest of the world. And you didn't choose that. And the parents, my parents, you know my father's a retired police officer. My mom worked in my elementary school. They put four kids through private Catholic education, one to grow my spiritual muscle too it was. You know Arizona doesn't have the best public school education, um, and I and my friend's parents were. We were the the.
Speaker 2:You know probably I'm not going to claim poverty, but we were definitely on the lower end of the scale of people at that school. So the parents I got to spend time with I got to learn lessons from that. My dad would have never been able to teach me with his whether it's financial acumen or things like that, but he put me in the right room. I didn't choose that either. So just that, having that humbleness around your success and grace, by the way, around failures. There's a lot out of our control that we have to again have grace for when things go wrong and realize, you know it's not totally your fault, and we have to have humility when things go right to say that's not totally you're doing either. So I think that played a big part in it too.
Speaker 1:I feel like the people in the industry need to hear this not just this industry, any industry because it's been a rough few years. You know, I feel like you exited all right, like really near the top, and after that, like you said, the stock prices went down. All these verticals had issues and a lot of people got wiped out. They're not in it anymore, but I also think that that happens right. It's part of the cycle of life and it's how you adapt to it. What do you do afterwards? And as long as you do the right thing, you have the right habits, you can still come out successful. So that's why I wanted to have you on. I think this has been an amazing interview. We're not done yet, but I really appreciate that. I think they needed to hear that, of course, brother Cool. So let's talk about now. Right, and you mentioned and I think this is very important it's funny I forgot I left my office.
Speaker 1:I'm going to be planning method rpm. Tony robbins has a virtual event next week. Uh, my, our mutual friend, nick buffano, told me about it and I need this really badly. Right now is my time manager, because I'm juggling so many things and I have my ea she's going to be doing as well. Uh, the rpm method. I can't wait to do that, and that's. You know you have to pay money to do that, obviously, we. I've been a lot of tony robbins events. You're pretty much all of them. You've been part of planning group. But I do agree what you said Coaching is so important it collapses the time frames for you. You're, you have access to an expert who's already done this for you, so let's talk about, then and what you're currently doing.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, great question. Thanks, yeah, I um. So I'm doing a lot of fractional CMO work for companies, which is just some of the most purposeful thing I could be doing. So, basically, I had my liquidity event and I had a new business, which I wasn't in that I mentioned, which is basically managing those assets, the liquid assets.
Speaker 2:So we all I think we forget, like someone asked me, like I'm going to make up a round number, I can't remember when it was, but like they're like, okay, tell me about your like net worth. And I was like okay, it's a I don't even know when this was a million dollars. They're like, okay, and it's in the stock market or some of it's in treasuries, or okay, great, they're like. They're like I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty diversified. He's like no, you're not, 99% of your net worth is in one asset. They go no, your private business, 99% of your net worth is locked up in your private business. And I was like, oh then, so my asset allocation, I thought was nice, diversified, it was actually, it was actually very concentrated in my private business, uh, which was how much that business was, was worth.
Speaker 2:So, um, when I liquidated that, essentially that that became, you know, realized cash at that point. And then I had a new skill I needed to learn, which was just like um. There's a great book, the E-Myth, where the baker has to learn how to become a manager, has to become to learn a business owner, and there's learnings along the way. Um and I was very intentional to realize that I needed to learn how to become a professional investor. So um chased an earn out for the company that bought me for about a year and a half two-ish years, and then along that journey I was learning how to become a professional investor, and the reason for me sharing that is I advise everybody listening to realize you can have a money machine as well too, which is the cash you've accumulated. Make that money work for you as well too. So you really have two businesses. You have your operating one and then that one. So I'm blessed enough that that business now sustains my lifestyle to where I don't need to work ever again.
Speaker 2:So it became a opportunity to say what fills up my cup the most from a purpose perspective, and that was not an easy journey. I think Ernest Hemingway says it takes more courage to stare at a blank sheet of paper than it does to get in the ring with the Lions and I very much felt that I had a blank sheet of paper and it took it was a lot of self-growth, a lot of prayer to be able to essentially land where I am today, which is I am coaching companies, I coach businesses, companies and coach businesses. Most of them are doing at least $10 million a year in revenue, some over $100 million and get to coach them one-on-one, in weekly or biweekly sessions and help really guide the business to grow at a more profitable level or scale, or scale while not scaling their time, scaling back their time while still increasing the profitability of the business or tracking quarters and exits. So that's been really, really fun for me and it's honestly, I feel like it's the biggest impact I've had in my career to date because I can go to, like a business owner like yourself hopefully there's still some experience, share and coaching and then you can go apply that to your team of 50, whatever it is your customers of 20, and then their customers of 50,000, right Like I just feel like my impact is magnified at such a high level while working with just a handful of business leaders. So it's some of the most purposeful work I've done most impactful work and it's, it's fun.
Speaker 2:Like one of my uh coaching clients just won their uh Ernst Young Entrepreneur of the Year. Wow, and I was like I got just as excited about that as I did when any of my own personal accolades, and it was like, wow, this is a. Really I'm getting the goosebumps saying it like what a, what a, what a. Um God, what a, what a blessing it is for me to serve people like that, like it's just so cool. So, anyway, yeah, to answer your question directly, I'm coaching businesses as a fractional CMO or, you know, a board of directors advisory role for companies to scale and grow.
Speaker 1:I love it. One thing I want to say is that you just dropped a ton of great information. I tell him so many nuggets on this interview and it's amazing, right, who's watches? I'd watch this two or three. I'm gonna watch this one more time. You give me great ideas we go to, with that being said, like we've gone to. Like tony robbins, you go to these events. I feel like when you go these that you get this like almost like a sugar high, like yeah, yeah, you already you can kill everything you know to dominate, but then you get back to the real world. You go back to your kids. You go back to this and they're like it wears off the two, three, four days, five days a week for now, two weeks now. So really you can have all the ideas in the world, but it comes down to execution and accountability, and I think that's the key here is that I would imagine, with your coaching program, you help hold them accountable so they actually execute on what you've teached them.
Speaker 2:Right. So, strategically, of course, being able to download, and then the accountability aspect, of course, is huge as well too, although you know, including myself, no one wants to hear that you want to hear the you know how to lift heavier weights not that the trainer is there for accountability, which is, of course, a big part of it. And then also for me, like I'm blessed enough to put a filter around who I want to work with. So I have to have some kind of moral alignment. So for me, like you know, I say like faith-based entrepreneurs, it doesn't mean you need to sell Bibles and it doesn't mean you need to be, you know, christian like myself, but believing in a higher power. I've found there's moral alignment there for wanting to serve the community, serve their customers, their employees, their family and a higher power. So that's the only other filter I didn't mention around coaching clients that I coach and again, they're not selling Bibles. Most of them have a lead generation or e-commerce for everyday products or services.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, that's another filter that I'm blessed to be able to put on for who I want to work with, somebody who's got that same moral alignment as myself In terms of filter criteria right, our audience is pretty diverse and most of them come from the digital marketing community, which I think that, again, anytime you get to work one on one with an expert that's done it, that's been through the ups and downs, that gets it all from all that different perspective. It goes such a long way. So what is what is a? Is it $10 million, the minimum annual revenue for you to work?
Speaker 2:with someone For one-on-one coaching it's at least $10 million in revenue and then for group coaching can be, you know, sub $10 million, but yeah $10 million. And then you know a few of my clients are doing over $100 million in revenue. But yeah, it's for one-on-one coaching. And just because the return is there, meaning there's a financial commitment for coaching, and I want to make sure that you know the customers or you know the client sees their value in the return and usually you need a business of bigger scale in order to justify the investment if that makes sense. So that's the end. And, by the way, I get to service companies that are doing big things in a big way to take to do it in an even bigger way. So the back to that purpose, like the, my level of impact magnification grows with a $10 million business versus a business doing 500,000 in revenue or something like that. So they've got more team members, more customers, um, so yeah, I'm a big believer in it.
Speaker 1:I know that you, you know we, uh, we know he's run the industry for a while. We went mutual for ours and then Nick Befano was in platinum group with you, with Tony Robbins, and I've seen it myself. When you invest in yourself, that's the best investment you can make. Right, you put money in it. Listen, the stuff does not. It's not cheap, but it's not. It's not the numbers, that what you get out.
Speaker 1:I flew first class to Dubai for Philly World and I met this really cool guy. The guy does something with luxury cars parking them, maintain them and killing it. Man, he's in that group as well. I want to connect you with him, but the mindset was so amazing how generous he was, and that's one thing I can. I think everyone that knows you and then people that don't know you, they get introduced to you. You're such a generous person and I and I find that you guys, that he was extremely generous and willing to share and help out. But listen, whatever you got to do to accelerate timeframes and connect to people that have been there before, it just goes a long way. So I really recommend that our audience, you know, contact you regarding that We'll put a link here for them to contact you and reach out. You know, is there anything else that we didn't touch upon here Because there was so much that you said? I mean, I think that this was an amazing interview. I'm glad we got to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just think I think you know, especially working with companies that are not affiliate marketers you realize the lifeblood of any organization is the sales and marketing and most, if not everybody listening to this podcast in your community is very good at sales and marketing, and you know, my vision is that the next uh billion dollar company unicorns are built out of affiliate marketers because they understand sales and marketing better than anybody else. So my call to you as an affiliate marketer is that you're you're called for more. You have a deep skill in a category that's the most important, in my opinion, of any organization, any product, any service is being masterful at sales and marketing, and everybody listening here is masterful at that. So my call to grow for everybody on here is you're made for more, you're made to grow a bigger business. You're made to maybe one day step outside of the affiliate space or do bigger things than you're doing today. So that's the last thing I'll say is is I don't think we realize what a tremendous skill everybody in this affiliate marketing space has.
Speaker 1:This is amazing. I'm sure everyone's get great knowledge. I would meet myself. I will. I'll have my team listed to this list. We'll start implementing this stuff Because, again, it's not about the idea, it's about execution. Right, that's what makes stuff happen. I love you, man, so glad you got to make it. We'll put a link to all your credentials here. Guys, hit them up. Success Leaves Clues. Anthony and Sanjaya, let's fucking go.
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