Episode 23: The Power of Ancient Wisdom

Show Notes:

“Everything looked perfect on the outside.”

Dr. Schramm is a family physician, a certified coach, and meditation instructor. Join us to hear her powerful and vulnerable story of how she created an amazing community out of her own needs and the needs of those around her.

Connect with Dr. Schramm here - 

https://www.rashmischramm.com/

IG: @dr.rashmischramm


Purchase my book here -

www.thepurposefulmd.com/book

Transcript

0:08

Welcome to the PurposefulMD Podcast. As a physician, you've sacrificed so much of your life for other people. Your patients, your family, your friends, and your colleagues. What would it feel like to spend time doing what you enjoy, and to live without guilt? I'm your host, Dr. Laura Suttin, a family physician, certified coach, and business owner. If you're a medical professional on a journey towards your most purposeful life, a life with more time and energy and ultimately more joy, then this is the podcast for you. Welcome to the podcast. Before we get to today's episode, I want to remind you that my book is now out. The Purposeful MD, Creating the Life You Love Without Guilt officially launched on October the 1st. So you can grab your copy. You can get your copy at the purposefulmd.com/book. I will put that link in the show notes. So I am so excited to bring this to the world. This is a really a guide for medical professionals. But anybody who is struggling to create more time and more joy in their day, there's tons of practical advice in the book and tips that you can follow, journal prompts for you to get into action right away. I get really personal and share my story and some stories of my clients and how we've been able to create that life for ourselves. So I hope you enjoy the book. And like I said, go ahead and get your copy at the purposefulmd.com/book. And I will put that link in the show notes. Thank you. Welcome to the PurposefulMD podcast. I'm so excited to have my guest today, Dr. Rashmi Shrom. Welcome to the podcast. So good to have you. Thank you so much. I am so grateful to be here. So we met, um, I don't exactly remember how long ago it was, but you were in town for the physician. I want to say physician coaches summit. That's right. I think it's been at least two, maybe three years, actually. Yeah. Three years. Yeah. Yeah. Over at La Cantera, I think. So and I just felt like I connected with your spirit right away. And we know we were chatting before we hit record. Just, I really appreciate your, your intentional calming presence and how you make people just feel so safe and open. And I've been really lucky to know you and to participate in some of the, in one of the retreats that you held this last year. So thank you for everything that you're putting out in the world. It's such an honor. I mean, such an honor to be connected and just to be here with you. Thank you. Well, tell us a little bit about you, about your story. Absolutely. So I'm a family physician. I was actually born in India and I lived there until I was 12. And I immigrated with my family, my media family to the U S when I was 12. So sixth grade. So the most perfect time to move from urban India to, um, rural Appalachia. And that formed a lot of my, uh, I think capacity to, to be able to adapt and understand and, and try to move with some kind of flow when there was no flow. Um, and so really when I went to medical school, there was this real pull for me to go into these very ancient wisdom cultures that I had felt really at home with that I had had to abandon when I was growing up in middle school and high school. And so, as I became a young adult, I really kind of went back into these ways of like mindfulness and meditation and yoga and, um, and was a very much a closet kind of meditator, if you will, because there was this, um, there was this narrative in my head, true or not, that it meant that I was some sort of, I had a weakness if I had to meditate or something like that. That was the running theme in my head. And so as I, you know, finished up my medical training and then I became a young mom or mom of two young girls. I mean, I had really abandoned all of these tools that I had been using over the years and found myself in an area of just like a very slow churn burnout in, I would say, all the areas of my life, even though really my life looked pretty darn picture perfect. I had two healthy kids. Um, I had the husband, I had the house, I had the cars, I had all of it from the outside of the job. Um, and my practice was growing and I felt like I was a dumpster fire in here. It was just like, there was just never enough time. There was so much scarcity of like, I could never get enough done. My to do list was always growing longer and there was just these accumulation of mental disturbances, emotional disturbances that I was able to just keep pushing through because that's kind of what I was taught until I really started to get physically sick. I had to wait until I got physically sick to seek help for myself is what I understand now. I didn't know it at the time. But really, I started to have chronic daily migraines. I started to have kidney stones in my early thirties from just drinking diet coke all the time. And this is a physician, a practicing physician, who's doing all these things, all kinds of digestive issues. I mean, all these things related to chronic stress that I didn't quite understand. And so it was out of pure necessity. And I was trying medicines. I was seeing physicians, all of those things. I wasn't getting results and I wasn't tolerating the medications that I was being given. And so I kind of went back to, wait a minute, like, I forget that there's this other tool. And so when I went back to, to words like yoga and meditation, I started to find some relief. And ultimately what I found was I had the human affliction of not being able to form a new habit when my old ways were coming back. And so I would meditate or practice some kind of mindfulness for like a month or two, and then I would get better. And then I would like not do it for four or five months. And then I would get, you know, some kind of illness again, and I go back to it. And so I finally. About 14 years ago. I was like, okay, this isn't working out. And I didn't have a community that was before social media. I wasn't really online at all. And so I sort of felt like I needed some kind of accountability and I didn't, I didn't know how to get it. And the only community I found was in a meditation teacher community, because truly, at that time, and I remember this distinctly, like, I remember my teacher saying, look, if you come into this program, you're basically saying, like, when you sign on this thing, you're saying that you're willing to meditate twice a day for the next 18 months. And that's really what part of this is, is you practicing on yourself. And I was like, yes, where do I sign, you know? And so that's how it started. And how, you know, that was the door that opened up things for Ayurveda. And I started to incorporate Ayurveda into my practice. And then I had a little micro practice that was a very private practice a few years ago, and I had heard that coaching was really helpful because I still wasn't seeing the results for my patients, even though I could have time with them and I could educate them. Sometimes they weren't changing. So I put my foot in the door of coaching and it was like, whoa, whoa, this is amazing. And I kind of just started to really go down that pathway. And over time, the coaching part of my practice grew to the extent where right now, I would say the clinical part is almost non existent, because my current, you know, group, clinical, you know, group coaching practice and the one on one practice is really taking up a full period of time for me, and I'm so grateful for that, because I tend to incorporate all of, all of this knowledge, and as you know, just from having practiced medicine and continuing to practice medicine, it's not just the medicine that's working. We're understanding so many things about the human, human condition. And so to be able to bring that in and to be able to mesh that with ancient wisdom and all of these different coaching techniques has been a true honor for me to do. And so that's really how, that's really how I'm kind of here as a full time coach, which if three years ago, if you had told me, I would have been like, you're crazy. Nobody can do that. I can't do that. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I, I just, I love all of that so much. And it's so interesting to just to hear how different parts of your life led you to where you are. And, and I think a couple of things that struck me is that, well, first of all, you said I was a closet meditator and that you had this belief that being a meditator was a sign of weakness that as at least as I hear it sounds like, well, I have to fix something by meditating. Right. And yet you still, and yet you still did it. And so there must've been a part of you that either maybe just kind of brush that aside, but you still saw some benefit. And then you, there were times when you were a little bit kind of less consistent and times where you were more consistent and I, gosh, that's, that's human, right? I mean, we see that in our patients. I felt better. So I stopped taking the meds. It's like, well, exactly. The meds were helping. Um, and then this, sense that I hear so many times in my clients and other Physicians is, everything looked perfect on the outside. You know, I had kids, I had a partner, I had the house, I had the job. I've made it. Right. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I see that so often is that there's this sense of we work so hard from a very young age to get where we are and we're can be very single-minded, very focused. I'm going to be a doctor. I'm going to be a, uh, whatever. And then we get there and we're like, what, why isn't, why am I not happy? Why isn't this everything I hoped it would be? And everybody around us is so excited and you've made it. And, and yet you said it was a dumpster fire. And so I'm curious. And then, and well, and then you mentioned all the physical ailments that were manifestations of stress and that what I picked up from what you were saying is that maybe there was a sense that the stress wasn't, I mean, I, I see this a lot and just had a podcast episode with another physician. On this about mental health, how there's still such a stigma that we feel like we can't get help for mental health. But if we get physically ill, then then it's okay to get help for that. And, and so that's 100 percent the narrative in my head now, whether I was connected to that, to that story or not. I don't know, but it is, it felt shameful almost to be like, I don't know why I'm feeling so anxious. I don't know why I'm feeling guilty all the time. Every time I'm at work, I feel guilty. Every time I'm at home, I'm guilty because I'm not working or, you know, those very common types of things that come up when, when I would kind of turn to my closest group of, friends who are all other physicians, they all had the same suffering. And so I was like, oh my gosh, like, is this all there is? Is this all there is? And that was this one question that kind of kept pulling me towards like, I guess this is all there is. But we know that's not all there is. Yeah. Yeah. We know that because we've lived it. I mean, we are living examples of that. This is not all there is. And there's so much more beauty on the other side. And so, yeah, I hear that question a lot. Is this all there is? And right. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And I feel like it's the, it's kind of that solid question that eventually comes up once we've quote unquote made it by society standards. Right. Right. Right, by society's standards and yet we still might feel unfulfilled. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not uncommon that we wouldn't try to find the next thing from the external world or the external source. I mean, we all do that. We might still be doing that, looking for, you know, being tethered to some kind of either acknowledgement or kudos or something like that. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But if that is all there is, then we're literally never going to be good enough. Right. I was coaching a physician about a year or so ago who was fresh out of residency. So doing the math on that, she was an intern. She started her intern year in the summer of 2020. So that in and of itself, I know is, I know is incredibly traumatic as what she told me, but I just, I can't even imagine. And, She brought, she highlighted something for me that was really, really interesting. She loved working with her patients. And yet she shared that she wasn't getting a lot of feedback from the people around her. And, and even feedback from patients is kind of, especially when you're first starting out, you don't necessarily see it. Maybe their, their clinical outcomes are going to take months if they ever do get better. And she'd been so used to getting Accolades and grades and positive recommendations in her medical school and training years. And now she's working, she's around colleagues and other people, but nobody's coming up and giving her the pat on the back that she's been getting since she was old enough to, you know, since she was probably in diapers, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was, it was really interesting once. She kind of brought that up and I was like, yeah, it's this, this absence of, well, nobody is, nobody's giving me the kudos anymore. Nobody's giving me the atta boys or the atta girls. And so I have to, I have to create that for myself. And when we don't get that external validation, um, and I, I even hear this from physicians too, is that, Well, I shouldn't need that external validation. You know, I, all these shoulds and I'm sure you hear this too is, well, I should just be grateful and I should just be happy with what I have and, and I shouldn't need that. And yet when we've been given it our whole life and it helps to feed us, then it's natural that we're going to want that and crave that. And so I think we have to give ourselves grace. Oh, for sure. Right. What you're, what you're really talking about is, is giving ourselves the capacity to just take a, a tiny, tiny bit of space between us and those thought patterns of like something is happening. It doesn't feel like it's enough to then become witness to those thoughts. That's really what you're helping your clients do ultimately. And when we do that and that comes up, oh, this is why I feel inadequate. We're right now, even though I can't quite point to it, it's because my past pattern has been totally dependent on this external source for. For the atta girls, and it's no longer there. And that's where the emptiness is coming from. But that takes a lot of awareness. That takes a lot of awareness. Yeah. And that's. Yeah. And this, this came up for this one client during the coaching session, kind of unnecessarily in the stream of consciousness, but just through the conversation, she had this insight, like, oh, I'm really craving this. I'm really missing this as part of my life. And so, you know, I think just acknowledging that was helpful for her. And then we, what I deal with a lot of my clients is okay, well, are there, if this is a need of yours, are there other things that you can do to fill the needs so that you're not relying on other people kind of taking back that agency for it. Um, And one of the things that I love about you and just picturing myself in, in, in the retreat that you held earlier this year is the space that you create in your one on one interactions. And then also in the group setting and this space of like, it's okay to feel these things and it's okay to want things. And it's okay to, to be upset that you didn't get something or you know, scream or cry or whatever. And, you know, we witnessed a lot of those things. And so I think, I think it's just really, it's so necessary in today's world to create an environment and other people. That are create an environment with other people so that they can have those feelings. And a lot of us were taught not to have those feelings and suppress it. Absolutely. Me included. I remember just being a resident or a med student and noticing just you know, within the hospital setting that the people who tended to have these really positive outlooks had better outcomes and the ones who were like, I'm definitely going to die, definitely die. And this was just like me being totally green to all of medicine and me kind of asking my attendings if they had been noticing that as well. And them being like, you're ridiculous. Like you're making that up. That doesn't exist. Right. And so me feeling so shameful for like, having even come up with something like that. But of course, science is validating that right now anyway, and we've always intuitively known that to be true. Not that, not that if we think we're going to die, we're going to die. But there was just this, there was just this, this, this, um, dichotomy that I was noticing that I wanted some information on. I was like, oh, this person's been practicing for 30 years, like maybe he's got, you know, he's got something to say now it could of course just been the few people that I asked and then I stopped asking because I felt like, oh my gosh, like I'm so wrong. Um, because we know that there are plenty of physicians who do incorporate emotional work. We know that that exists. We know that that expansive state of incorporating mind body health definitely exists in medicine, but it's, you know, it being stamped out. For many, many years is also very real. And I, you know, I think that's still the case now is there's just not enough time to handle all of the complexities that come with all of the emotions that come with a health diagnosis and or treatment. Um, and that's unfortunate because if we could start to incorporate some of that. I think we would start to, I think we would just start to have a softer society. I think we would just have a more connected society. I'm not sure if we could find objective reality shifts for results, but if nothing else, you know, this idea of feeling safe, of feeling a sense of connection and co-regulation with someone else that feels safe is, is healing, whether we cure someone or not. Right. I mean, that's the beauty of, of pets, right? I mean, that there, if they're living in our homes and they're with us, then they feel safe and they bring this sense of safety to us that we don't, we don't necessarily ask for, but they just do. And that's one thing that's so beautiful. And little kids too, you know, they're, they're, they're abandoned. They don't care. How they, how they look or how they sound, they just do what they want. And it's such a freeing thing to see, um, the amount of safety that they have for themselves. And yeah, it's, it's so true what you say about what comes up for me when I hear you is that if we don't feel safe within ourselves, we can't, we can't hold a space for somebody else to feel safe. And I'm sure you've heard it. um, situations as well with family and friends who have medical. Medical diagnoses or challenges. And you know, you've sounds like you've had some of that as well, that. Seeing, seeing a physician or, or visiting an ER, whatever, being a patient in a setting where the, the staff or the physicians are just very disconnected and talking with my non-medical friends and family about this, you know, hearing kind of their, their gripes about it, I'm like, yeah, we, and I say, this is not to excuse any poor behavior. But just like, hey, just so you know, that physician has been trained to suppress their emotion. They've been rewarded for it for suppressing their own needs and compartmentalizing those emotions. And so that is going to come out and, and it's unfortunate and hopefully medical education training systems are starting to shift in that way. I don't, I don't know if you, if you're seeing that at all, I don't, I'm not in that world. So I don't know if you're, if you're If you're seeing that and I know you're advocating for it. I'm definitely advocating for it. And so my older daughter is a pre-med student. And so she's been doing some things within pre-medical societies and within just clinics and things like that. And I think just that generation is willing to shift it. I think that generation that is willing to talk about their feelings and their emotions and say no have boundaries and honor their boundaries and honor their sovereignty. And it's not just the 20 year olds like I think we're seeing that in, you know, young 30s, that type, right, like, I think we're seeing that and saying this is really, this is toxic. Like almost just calling it out. Um, and I think it, I, I hope that it is shifting. It may not be shifting as fast as you and I would like for it to shift. And there may not be a beautiful, great little square answer for all these problems that arise. Because doctors are humans too. And we just really do not recognize that so much of the time and that when we're burned out, when we're disconnected from ourselves, when we have been rewarded, like you said, for being disembodied, that that will continue because it's no longer safe for us to feel our emotions, no matter where we go. And it will show up in clinical care. It has to, because it's part of what doctors are doing. And so it's, it is, it is just unfortunate. And my hope is that it is It's changing, um, but I do see it shifting for sure. And I'm sure you see that as well. There's lots of open discussion about mental health, about emotional health, about, um, you know, do they feel safe? Do they feel connected? There's definitely a lot more discussion of it in this next generation than certainly I ever felt safe enough to talk about. Oh yeah, absolutely I love seeing it. My, my daughter's a senior this year in high school and I love, I love the discussions that I hear her have with her friends and, and that she and I have, and that she's open and willing to ask for what she needs and, And assert herself and advocate for herself. Um, and on our whirlwind college tours that we did over the summer, every single one of the campuses we visited talked about mental health resources and wellbeing and how they are supporting not just the academic, but the human side of the students. And like, wow. Uh, however, many years ago I went to college, I won't say, but that, um, it wasn't, it just wasn't talked about. And so, yeah, I'm happy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Or we couched it under physical health or something like that. You know, if we were doing something. Yeah. Um, and so if, if, if I went kayaking, it was, it was for my shoulders and my abs, you know? Right. Right. Yeah. If we, if we. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If we worked out, then it was, yeah, it was because we wanted to lose weight or because we wanted to, to, you know, fit in our summer bikini or whatever that was. And I'm like, man, that is not why I run. I, I, I run because I mean, I, I enjoy having good physical health too, but, um, the mental aspects of it are so much, so much stronger for me. Yeah, for sure. For sure. But yeah, I do think times are changing. I think they're evolving and I'm so grateful for it. I'm here for it. Yeah, me too. Me too. I love what you said in your, in your story about that. When you were really seeing how helpful meditation was for you and You didn't see other, other avenues or other communities that were doing what you wanted. And so you created it. And I just love that so much that you're like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't see what I wanted, so I made it. That's just beautiful. So tell us a little bit more about that. So it was completely accidental, just so you know, right? And so it was very much born out of a need and a necessity. So when I started to go into meditation teacher training many years ago, you can imagine part of that is I, you have to go out and teach meditation. And so, right, the best way to learn is to teach and meditation isn't just about sitting in lotus position and, you know, uh, humming or whatever we think that it is. It's really just a way of being and it's yoga is really what it is. And so for me, I really just started to teach it just in my own office. Like at lunchtime, we'd huddle or in the morning or something like that because I needed to check off my boxes. Like I'm in integrity with this program, like I'm not going to say I'm going to not do it. And then eventually that kind of like word spread, oh, you know, like Dr. Schramm does all these things. And so, um, and the, the local Y contacted me. And so for several years, I was just like every, you know, whatever, Tuesday night, I think, um, I had a free meditation class and I learned a lot from my students and I learned how to teach. And I, the, the cardinal thing that I understood about teaching. And this was all through error, right? Like all kinds of trial and error was that if I wasn't centered and grounded and connected to myself, it didn't really matter what words I said at all. And so that started to be how I really realized, like, I need to be regulated. Like this is something that it's an energy transmission and people don't care what words I'm saying. If I am saying them from a place of anxiety and I'm just like reading a script, it doesn't matter. Um, and so that's really how that started was very messy and with lots of errors and from a place of genuinely like trying to make sure I was integrity with a program that I started because of the depth of it. And, and I would even say to like my little small group, I'd be like, well, you know, I'm really never going to teach, but I am going to do this because it feels really good. And I'll probably teach, you know, for free for the rest of my life or something like that. Um, and so that's really how that started. And then I started. To see the results for the, for the people and ultimately, and then I still had a very, very tiny, small kind of like not anything online, just local way of being able to teach and connect with people who are interested and then COVID hit and this is, um, This is like one of my most favorite stories to tell is one of my college roommates, um, knew that I was doing some things in wellness and health and things like that. And we would talk often and I think it was April of 2020 and she was like, okay, Rash, like I need a TED talk. Like send me the link to a TED talk because my family, they're all being jerks and I need a TED talk to help them see that they're being jerks. And so that they can fix it. And so I sent her one of my guided meditations. What is this? What is this? Two days later, she was like, Oh my gosh. And it was a yoga ninja practice just to be sure. It was, it was just fully guided and it takes like 20 minutes to get through the whole thing and it's based deeply in this idea of meeting ourselves where we are and this, this, this sense of witnessing our thoughts and our emotions and being okay with whatever arises, which we're usually not okay with. Right. And so she goes, Oh, Oh, do you think I'm the problem? And I was like, Oh, I did not say that. She's like, maybe me. This is like super type A, you know, in New York, like they, she hasn't slowed down in ever, like ever. And all of a sudden COVID is like, now four of them are in this tiny apartment and they're like, what's happening? Like, what is happening? And so it really started like that. And then she, just from that one, thing. She started to get so many results. She was like, okay, so you have this in your back pocket and you're not sharing it. And I'm like, well, you know, the Y is closed down. Like, where am I supposed to do this stuff? And she's like, ever heard of zoom? And I'm like, no, I haven't. So I started to do them on Saturday mornings, and that community grew and grew and grew, and, and eventually the same friend was like, you need to start charging people. And I felt really uncomfortable with it at first, and then she was just like, she stepped in, she'd be like, this is her Venmo, y'all can send her money. And so then people started paying me. And then I started to get coached on, you know, just like my money mindset and what's happening. Why do I think that this isn't, you know, valued where I think like writing a prescription is valued or like all of these different things. And so it was a really circuitous, um, almost like, uh, totally unplanned and, and fairly unpredictable. And generally, thanks to COVID, that some of that stuff really started to come into existence really. And so those were really born out of complete necessity and not necessarily like I didn't, I think, you know, 10 years ago, plan it out and be like, well, in this year I will, you know, I will bring in this kind of like, it was literally just from, from receiving feedback and being open to open to trying something in a very messy way. Um, and so I hope that helps make sure that there's no perfect picture here. Yeah. I mean, I know I'm sure you see that a lot too, is, is people being afraid to start something because well, what if I fail or, you know, I don't know what it's going to look like. And I mean, again, that's part of our training, right? Like, yeah, you better hit that central line on the first try. Oh, right. For the lung, you know, that type of thing. Yeah. Don't cut the wrong artery. That's right. So, yeah, I mean, that's definitely, again, part of our training and I love what you said is you're like, it was just messy. And I just, I mean, I, you did it because you were, you were learning and growing in the process too, as you were teaching. For sure, for sure. And it's still that way. I mean, I honestly, I still teach because I need it. And because one of the only ways to truly teach is to be well regulated within myself. And so that I think is a necessity. Like, I think I will teach the rest of my life because it's necessary for me to, to get to a certain place for me to be able to guide anyone in anything. Yeah. Yeah. And you, you're learning along, learning along with your clients and learning from them too. For sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So what are your, what are your go tos to regulate yourself? And you said that word a lot. So what are the, what are the practices that are your, you know, what's your daily practice? And then what are your like, Oh, in the moment, my, my family's driving me crazy practices. Yeah. Yeah. So I should say that I am fresh off of a meditation retreat with like an amazing teacher. And so I'm in a different place now than I would have been like two weeks ago. I promise you that. That's awesome. Good for you. And so, but, you know, eventually it's this idea of giving ourselves permission. So, you had to give yourself permission to go to a retreat. That's a big deal. It's a really big deal. Because we often wait for someone else to give us permission, and that's never ever going to come. And so, once I started to recognize that, that my well being and my healing was just as important as anyone else's. And in fact, I would almost say that it is a huge part of the health of my community and the health of my family and those that I care for. I think it has a ripple effect. And so once I really established that understanding from not being healthy, like it had to come from me not being okay to moments of being okay and understanding that I was literally the world was reflecting back to me what I was putting out into it and having a lived experience of that and understanding the importance of that. So I think that's really the first step is to give ourselves permission. And so for me, then that means that my meditation practice. My daily meditation practice in the morning is non-negotiable. My morning movement practice is non-negotiable, like within my own self. It's just non-negotiable. And once we start to establish that, and that becomes our new normal, then really, we almost give other people permission to follow however their own healing looks like as well. And, and ultimately, like, we're not these isolated, you know, beings anywhere that in silos, we are co-regulating with other people as well. And so making sure that I'm building community, making sure that I'm available for the people who need me and making that a priority rather than just me, like going off into meditation retreat anytime I want. I really only do that once, once a year, maybe once every two years. And ultimately my go to is a daily meditation practice in the morning. I incorporate some breath work into it. And then the movement, like I am outside and I live in Florida and I am so grateful that I can be outside basically all year round. And so if I can get up early enough, and with before the sun rises in the summer, I can get, I can get my movement done. So I would say that's it. And then I have kind of just a very simple evening routine of like yin yoga, maybe a yoga nidra, and just kind of a quick journaling practice. It doesn't take me very long, but making that a new normal for myself and just like releasing the day. And is so important for me to then be able to rejuvenate. And then, by the way, when I was in that whole stressful period for like a decade, I wasn't sleeping very well at all. I wasn't giving myself permission to even sleep or rest because that felt like that was a waste of my time somehow, which is ridiculous to say out loud, but I was routinely getting way less than six hours of sleep every night. And so like, I had to start there. I just had to start with prioritizing my sleep. And I had to start with like, letting go of. I know I don't need to do laundry until midnight or whatever. I don't need to be online until 1am, like just that. So I think it's been in total increments and I'm totally not done growing. I'm not done evolving and I'm not done trying to understand how I can make a more meaningful presence for myself by continuing to, to coexist with the people around me, if that makes sense. Yeah. I love all of that so much. It just, uh, and, and again, you said this a lot, the retreat is, I think that was one of the first things you said to us as we were coming together is you gave yourself permission to be here and, and to, to go to a retreat. And you, you said this a lot as well, requires logistics. Like most of us don't just like, Oh, I'm going to get on a plane and go halfway across the country. You know, we have families and obligations and jobs and things that we have to pass off to somebody else. And so I, I hear that as like, even something as simple as, sitting for 15 minutes in a meditation for somebody that might be a really for a lot of people that's a really radical act to do to close the door. I mean, I've had physician clients that are like, I can never close my door. And so even trying to help them see, like, yeah, you can, you can close your door, the world's going to be fine. Yeah. Um, but just that radical act of giving yourself permission to take that, that time, take that space for yourself and the knowledge that if I do this for myself, it's going to have a ripple effect, like you said. And I mean, I just think about a physician who sees 30 patients a day, the impact that that physician can have on the, just how they regulate their own nervous system and create that safety within themselves. And so, um, I. I, I, I love that what you say about, you know, it's, it's incremental, you know, you started with the sleep cause that's the most important. Years. Honestly, it took me years to get to like seven hours. It took me years. Yeah. Yeah. It, it is, you mentioned this earlier about like, I'm a physician, I should know these things. And, and I hear that a lot too, is I know I need to be sleeping more and things that we tell our patients, but are, we find it hard to practice within ourselves. That's right. That's right. Eating healthy movement. Right. Right. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. None of this would have happened unless there was a lot of intention behind it and ultimately, you know, like baby stepping it all the way, because otherwise, if, if, like, if I get, if I have a new client and I'm like, I'd like for you to meditate, you know, for 30 minutes a day. Do 10 minutes of breath work and I'd like for you to do 30 minutes of yoga. The amygdala is going to sound all the alarm bells and is definitely a thousand percent never going to happen. And instead what you're noticing, how you help your clients too, is why don't we just start with two minutes of breath work and see how that shows up and just that can start to make a shift for someone, right? And I do use breathwork, by the way, that to answer your question is how do I, how do I handle when I'm like literally losing my mind? Um, I will always go back to my breath. And so even that, like even two minutes, like usually the amygdala is like, fine, go on through. You're loud, you know, like I'm not going to sound the alarm bell and and if we start there if we just get our leg in the door of like, how can you feel just okay, like we do not need to get to rainbows and unicorns at all, like we just need to go from this I am so stuck here into maybe I'm okay. And maybe there's, maybe there's something else that's, uh, you know, that's arising in me and sometimes it is just, you know, it's a coaching session and two minutes of breath work and that is just fine. And then we can kind of start and build from that. Yeah. Yeah. It's meeting the client where they are and yeah. Yeah. And because like you said, your current practice and which might not look like your practice years from now, but your current practice has taken years to build. And, and it's, it's over trial and error too, is what I heard. And it's what you, based on what you need, the movement, the meditation, the journaling, um, the yin yoga, you've, you've created that based on your specific needs. Somebody else's needs might look different. That's right. You know, I hear that a lot from physicians too, as well. I I'm supposed to be, I'm supposed to journal in the morning. I'm supposed to, uh, gratitude is supposed to be really good. And all these things that we know, we think we think we should be doing and, and what I'm hearing from you and, I see this a lot too is, well, let's, let's just find what works for you to find something that works for you now, maybe, and we can build on it if we need to and if it doesn't work for you now, then, we'll just, we'll squash it and we'll try something else next week. So a hundred percent and people's circumstances are constantly evolving, right. And so, um, it, you know, the, the, the client who has three young kids who's working full time as the primary earner in their family is going to have a totally different, you know, capacity to, for time than someone like me, whose kids are young adults who are self sufficient and are in college and like, there's a completely different capacity. And so, yes, I do sleep eight hours a night and I do meditate for 30 minutes every day. And I, and I do, you know, you do some kind of movement for almost 45 minutes every single day. And so those are, those are privileges that I know I'm honored to have right now. I don't take them for granted. And I also clearly created that intention for myself, for my own healing. Yeah. I love that. Well, and it's, I mean, it's evident in just the, um, the light that you shine and the way that you, um, hold space for, for me and for others and, um, just how much you care about serving other positions. So. Yeah. Yeah. It's just so much fun. Don't you think? All right. It is. Yeah, it is. And that was another thing I mean, clearly from the retreat, I, it was amazing and I had a lot of fun, but I, you know, you incorporated that you incorporated play and fun and, and all these things into it too so that it, it didn't, I think we meditated probably several hours a day, but it didn't feel like this, like sitting in Lotus and uncomfortable. I mean, it was, you met us where we, where we were and you, you asked us, hey what do you all need this weekend? Yeah. And then you, you kind of met our needs. And so, um, I just appreciate that about you. So, yeah. Yeah. What an honor. Holy smokes. Yeah. Yeah. It was super cool. Um, it was so, it's so wonderful to, to have you and to talk to you. Is there anything else that you wanted to share? That's part of my No, I'm just, again, just so grateful for this conversation. I thought it was just so beautiful the way that it kind of just meandered through all these different truths and all these, you know, different messy truths that can then lead us to ultimately a totally different place. And I hope that it, my story helps anyone that it really doesn't take, it really doesn't take a full 180 shift for someone to eventually create that several years from now and that we all, we all have the capacity for healing. We all have the capacity to find that safety and that regulation and co-regulation. I hope that that, that, I hope that that came through loud and clear. Yes. Thank you. Well, we'll include links for your website and your socials in our show notes, um, so that our listeners can find you and work with you and hear about all the amazing things that you have going on, but thank you so much for being here. I'm so grateful. Thank you. While I am a physician, the information presented in this podcast is for educational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please consult with your own healthcare provider before making any significant changes to your lifestyle or routine. By listening to this podcast, you are not creating a physician patient relationship. Thank you for listening to The Purposeful MD Podcast. If you like what you hear, please rate and review the show. Please also visit my website, www.thepurposefulmd.com for free downloads or to discuss working with me as your coach.