Episode 35: Advancing Women in Medicine

Dr. Mrinalini Kulkarni-Date is an Associate Professor and Division Chief of Endocrinology in Austin, Texas. She’s also a tireless advocate for advancing women in medical leadership positions, and serves as a mentor and career coach for women seeking to develop thriving careers in medicine.

She’s a true example of leadership. She dives deep into her own journey and the challenges of being a woman in a leadership role, and provides fantastic advice for any physician seeking to thrive in their life and their career.

Connect with Dr. Kulkarni-Date here: mdate@peak-md.com

Transcript

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Welcome to the Purposeful MD Podcast. As a physician, you've sacrificed so much of your life for other people, your patients, your family, your friends, and your colleagues. What would it feel like to spend time doing what you enjoy and to live without guilt? I'm your host. Dr. Laura Suttin, a family physician, certified coach, and business owner. If you're a medical professional on a journey towards your most purposeful life, a life with more time and energy, and ultimately more joy, then this is the podcast for you. Welcome to the Purposeful MD Podcast. I'm really excited to have our guest today. Um, her name is Dr. Mrinalini Kulkarni-Date, thank you. Um, and I'll introduce her in just a second. Um, wonderful individual that I met at PIMDCON last September, and we got to chatting about some similar interests, and I'm really inspried by what she does. So really excited to talk to her today. Um, so Dr. Kulkarni-Date is an Associate Professor and Division Chief of Endocrinology in Austin, Texas, and has served in multiple leadership positions. She's been recognized for her work in faculty and physician development in the medical school and national recognition as well, winning multiple teaching awards. She's a career coach and mentor for women physicians seeking to develop thriving careers in academia and health system leadership. She currently serves on the Travis County Medical Society Committee for Women in Medicine. Thank you so much for being here, it's great to have you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so we were chatting a little bit before we hit record. I'm super excited to dive into this with you and, um, just again, connected with you at PIMDCON. Really felt like we're, you know, you're in Austin. I'm in San Antonio, so we have that in common, but also very kind of similar minded. Um, so really wanted to connect with you afterwards. So appreciate you being here. Um, tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got to where you are right now. Sure, um, so my journey is kind of long. I mean, I've, I've been at it for a while. Um, I finished fellowship, I'm an endocrinologist. I finished fellowship. I joined an academic institution initially that had kind of a, a private practice model and, um, just, you know, started noticing some things. I mean, I loved seeing my patients, but I also was interested, like, I was always thinking about how can I make clinic better? There's some things we need to do, we need to have some initiatives. Um, I also had some Fellows in clinic, love teaching, it's one of my absolute passions. Um, and so as I started sort of getting involved in clinic processes and procedures, um, I was sort of recognized by that leadership of my, you know, that I had this interest, and eventually I started, um, you know, I, I started, then I, I moved into some clinic leadership and then, um, I did some clinic development. I actually did, then I sort of shifted, um, some roles in academia. I did some curriculum development. Um, in my, I had a role as Institute Director, where I actually like developed clinics, uh, clinical interventions that were really sort of outside of the box, not just, you know, a concrete clinic where you're, you're seeing patients in a traditional way, but leveraging telehealth, leveraging home visits, um, really had to take care of some challenge, I was, I was asked to take care of some vulnerable populations. Um, and so in doing that, uh, I, I ended up, I sort of over time found my way into this, well, I, I was at this position for a long, long time, and then when I, I took, I, um, became Chief of Endocrinology, um, at this academic, uh, institution, uh, that also had a, had a, had a big clinical, um, enterprise. And, um, they, I, I actually got a, that was the first time I got a coach, and that coach, I found myself in the C-Suite and, um, I was amazed to find a couple things. One is, I felt like the environment of the C-Suite was so, like it was so traditional. It was this, this"Good Ole Boys" Club, and, there were things that, you know, you learn about how to be and how, how, you know, how we are, and, and I was one of the only women there. And, um, you know one of the things I experienced is, is when I had my first, when I was with my first pregnancy, when I went on leave, there's this idea that, uhh, like women physicians who go on, on leave, for maternity leave, just like, we're creating problems within the system, and we're really not serious about, uh, being doctors, and we're really not serious about our, our commitment to the institution or patients, and that's just not true. And then the other thing I found is when I came back, there was this, like my Chair was like, oh you owe us all this time, so you should take all this extra call. And, and I was like, no, that's not it. And I also noticed this paradigm of like, women who were taking leave for, for maternity leave and, and you know, vacay, like maybe take days off, because if you get called and your kids got a fever, you gotta go pick them up, were like, oh, you know, you're really not committed, but men who did that were, oh, you're so great and it's so great that you're committed to your family. So, you know, I, I started noticing those paradigms as I was, um, you know, as my career was, uh, on this career trajectory, and then when I was in the C-Suite, I, I noticed these, you know, some more stuff, like, you know, um, it was mostly men who did all the talking in the rooms, and, the people who were being promoted were men, even though, like you saw women doing the hard work of, of getting things done and figuring out, um, you know, these, these programs and doing the hard analytic work. And so I, uh, I also realized there was this big, um, we versus them kind of mentality in medicine, right? It's like Admin. vs. the Clinic people who, you know, are, are very work avoidant and don't wanna work, and, but you're, you know, a lot of, even the physicians in Admin., kind of like they have this reputation of going to the dark side, so I just saw so many things and, and I, um, really, I got a coach, and that was really transformative for me, because I learned how to have great conversations, how do you structure those conversations, how do you start off, you know, if you complain, or you vent, or you start off on a certain note, you don't get your message heard, number one. You have to come off collaborative, number two, right there is this, this sort of divide, but how do we, come, cross that divide, and how do we show people how committed physicians are? And anyway, so I, I sort of progressed through this, this career and, and I became, um, you know, Medical Director of Virtual Care Institute, Director of, of the brand new clinic and, and had some really great experiences and, and worked with some really amazing people. But one thing that I, I just like, and the other disturbing thing that I noticed is, you know, people are leaving medicine. And, I feel very sad about that, because number one, I think medicine is a, can be a wonderful career. Um, number two, there is such a need for physicians out there, and we give great care, and we are really caring, we care about patients. And so I always feel about, you know, there's so many patients there that are never gonna see these certain physicians who are leaving. Um, so that's something that has really, really disturbed me. And that, along with, you know, we need to lift women up. Women, they're only like, if you look at how many women are in leadership positions, it's getting better. But like if you look at Med School Deans, for example, probably, well nationwide, only about 10% of women are Deans in leadership positions, in medical institu, in, in medical schools. Maybe a little bit the same, maybe slightly better in health, healthcare institutions. Um, but we've gotta get more women in leadership. We know that, that patients love women physicians, right? They say women talk to me. My, my women physicians, they, they, they listen to me, they understand how I feel, they understand the family dynamic, and we're just as good in leadership. And so, I just have a real passion for it. So I now have, I, I do a lot of mentoring, I do a lot of coaching, consulting, um, really wanna run, uh, advance, um, women in leadership and, um, women careers, whatever that might be. I could not cheer for that harder. Um, I, and thank you for sharing all that, and so much of your story I feel like some of the details, you know, obviously changed our institution, but I feel like that story was so similar to mine. Um, the maternity leave thing, I just, it boggles my mind still. And I, I feel like we could spend the whole podcast talking just about this, but you know, I, so my daughter, um, I have one of my own and, and several, uh, three older step kids, but my, so my daughter was born when I was in residency. I was very, lucky to have a very supportive team around me. Um, and I also saw when I, you know, finished and got into my career, I saw women that were having children and, and the, the, um, kind of the talk behind their back about, well, it's just a vacation, and she's taking 12 weeks off, and she's gonna have to make up for it when she comes back, and all of this, and, uh, it's just, it's, it's uh, it's, it's mind boggling to me. Um. Right. And I. Or even like, use your PTO. Right. And I'm like no, you need that PTO, because when your kid gets sick, you need to use that time. Right, right, because that child will, I mean, will get sick. Mm-hmm. And then I, I was also, um, very similar, um, I was navigating, at the time, I was a a, a lot of the time in my leadership career, I was a single parent before I got remarried. My daughter was small, and, um again, I, my very supportive, uh, co-parent and her father, um, we split custody and when she was with me, if she got sick, and a lot of times even if she was with him, they, the school would call, they, who do they call, they call the mom first, right. So, um, the times that I would go pick her up, have to leave work early to pick her up, like, I, I know I was getting, kind of snide comments, cause I, I heard them when all those situations happened with my women colleagues. Um, and I saw the promotions going to the men, who a lot of times had stay at home wives. So if the water heater broke, they had somebody that could be there to, you know, have the plumber come in. Um, I, I didn't have that situation. Um, and, I also saw, we had a leadership team at one point that would, the meetings were always late in the afternoon, and our, uh, organization spanned multiple time zones, so there was one, um, leader in a time zone that this meeting happened to fall later in the day, she had to be picking up her kids at the same time this meeting was going on, so she could never be on camera. She was always in the car. Sometimes she had her kids with her. And the comments about her when she was on, when, like before the call started or afterwards, like, it was horrible, the things that were said about like, oh, she's picking up her kids. She's not really focused. And it's like, but it's 6:00 PM out where she is. You know, she's got a pickup. It's just, it's such a, um, again, I'm just, I'm know I'm preaching to the choir, but, um, it's just such a, a double standard against. It is a double standard or, um, I used to have this meeting that was like, I don't know, it was at 7:00 AM. And, I was like, you know, I have two kids. They go to different schools. My husband and I split up the drop off, and there's no place that I can drop them off that early in the morning and. Right. Honestly, they shouldn't have to. Right. So I didn't always go to that meeting. This was before the days that Zoom was so available. Mm-hmm. I actually, like my Chair then told me, my boss told me that, well the person who runs this meeting doesn't think you're a very good collaborator. You're, you're difficult to work with. And I was like, based on what I have done, all the, like, I, I had maintained, you know, I'd done, gotten all my deliverables done, and more, and was otherwise always available. Um, which we shouldn't have to be, but that's another story. Right. But it was that one thing that made me difficult to work with. Yeah. Um, and there's data about this. Oh, and by the way, there's also data about even between men and, and women physicians. Like, there are studies that have, there is a study that has shown that women, the Inboxes for women physicians, like the Inbox is like this evil, horrible thing, right. It's like totally overwhelming. We get more messages, longer messages, and we have to spend more time answering the Inbox than male physicians do. Yeah. And I've had physic, like I've witnessed, like the male physicians are saying, hey, why are you guys complaining so much? Like yeah, the Inbox is the Inbox, but when you look at how many messages they get versus you get, you get a lot more. Yeah. Um, and again, I think it goes back to that other paper that, there's another paper that, that showed, that people prefer women physicians, because they feel like they listen. So anyway, but. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. So interesting. And, and I think I love that so much about where, where you're focusing your energy now is, in mentoring other women, so that women are staying in medicine, staying in academia, and not, kind of seeing the current state, and sort of a lot of what we went through and hopefully, hopefully is getting better. Um. But really encouraging women physicians to just kind of stay in it and, and helping to guide them along the way, which is the coaching that you got, is how to get your message across. And I know we talked about that a little bit too. I definitely wanna dive in, how to get your message across in a way that, um, you know, we're not talking about mansplaining or anything like that but. Right. How to get, we don't get this training in our, in medical school, in, uh, in residency. We don't get training with how to, how to act in a meeting or how to make sure your voice is heard. And so, uh, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that. Let's talk a little bit about, before we hit record, we were talking about, um, kind of creating that tweet. Um, so I definitely wanna hear from you about, about that. Um, and yeah, just how do we continue to get our voices heard? Okay. So I use, um, the tweet I call it, how do you, I like, I call it creating your tweet. I use this, uh, not only, so I certainly mentor people in academia, but I have clients who, are in, um, private practice and, you know, they work for whatever, you know, Kaiser or whatever, uh, and they're in leadership positions or they're trying to get, you know, leadership positions or maybe they have some passion project, you know, in, in that private practice world that they really wanna get off, uh, get going. So, when you're, so, if you're thinking about something you wanna do, so it could be as simple as, I'm a clinician, I'm in clinic, which isn't simple, but I'm in clinic and I'd really like us to hire a nurse, because we have a need for, you know, to, to give infusions or have the patients need nurse visits for diabetes, right. So how are you going to, so you could complain, right, you could say like, oh, I'm so overwhelmed. These patients aren't getting, um, good visits, you know, they're, they're just getting lost follow up, and I'm overwhelmed, and there's just so many messages, and I don't have enough help. But you're going to be, and so you have to think about number one, who need, who needs to hear your message. You have to think about what is that message. Nobody wants to hear complaining, right. It just, we all tend to turn that off. Mm-hmm. Um, so it, it's not a vent, it's about who. So knowing who you are, like, so maybe I'm meeting the CMO, right, or the medical director, and they don't know who I am or don't know me very well, so I wanna create a succinct message and I call it a tweet. So it's like a 20 second message. Some, maybe you have 30 seconds, but maybe it's a 15-20 second message where you say who you are, um, what you do, and you say. I, you know, I am one of the busiest, um, endocrinologists in the diabetes clinic and I have X number of diabetes patients, and I have noticed that, we're not able to do X, Y, Z, and the data shows that we'll have better health outcomes or we'll meet our metrics. We're more likely to meet our metrics if we can create some nursing visits, um, to, to help patients, um, stay, uh, adherent to medications, adjust their insulin, you know, so you, you have like who you are, what your main point is, what you're doing, if you have outcomes, what those outcomes are. And, and you have like points 1, 2, 3, and those aren't complaining points. Those are, here's, here's who, here's who I am, here's what I have identified, and I'm so excited to, to try and solve this issue. And here are my ideas about solving this issue. You know, that's your second or third point and you're done. You've gotten that person's ear, you've got 20 seconds, and you have a very succinct message. You should, so I actually have people that, people that I work with practice this message. Yeah. So, we'll identify like, what are the things that you are really trying to work on or you want to do, and let's create your tweet. I have a, um, a client that I'm working with right now, who's really trying, who's, she's really amazing, but she's wanting to, um, she's working on creating some mentorship programs, uh, in entrepreneurship for women. And she specifically wants to do it for women who are, um, divorced and socioeconomically, uh, disadvantaged or, or single and socio single moms who are socioeconomically disadvantaged. And so she's trying to get some funding and so we helped her create tweets. Based on who she, you know, like who are the potential investors that she's looking to, and she only has a few minutes with them. How, what is she saying? Yeah. Um, and that can be a really effective way for you to succinctly say what your purpose is and people actually listen. Mm-hmm. Um, so that is the creating your tweet. And I create many tweets for many different things. Um, and I think it's a great tool. It's a really great tool. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I, that that's something that when I was really crafting my business and honing my business, that was something that I was encouraged to do as well as part of a community was, um, it was like the elevator pitch, basically. Yes. And when somebody. Exactly that. Because somebody, and this was a, this was a big kind of transition for me as I was moving more from practicing physician, corporate executive to physician coach, business owner, entrepreneur, and people say, what do you do? How do I answer that question? And so that was, that was a big identity shift for me, but really honing that this is what I do and this is who I help. This is who I serve. Yeah. Um, and I, I just, I, I really appreciate that, that you're helping those physicians to really take, kind of, take that ownership back and like you say. The CMO is not the person to complain to. I'll never forget when I was in medical school, um, I, I must have been a third year, you know, very beginning of my clinical rotations, and I quickly realized there was this hierarchy of who you, who you ask. You know what, what person you ask for things. So I remember somebody telling me like, don't ever ask your attending where you get scrubs. You know, ask the fourth years or ask the interns where you get scrubs, but don't ever ask the attending where you get scrubs. You know, there's, and, and I don't necessarily need to reinforce the, uh, maybe overdrawn hierarchy, but, but there, like you, you said before we hit record. If you pass the CMO in the hallway or if you're on the elevator with them, you have a great opportunity. Hey, uh, this is who I am, this is what I do. I have this great idea and this is how it could help the organization, help the service line, help the department, whatever. Um. Can I schedule a meeting with you or whatever that looks like? Can I, would you like to hear more? Yeah. Or it might even be, um, is it all right if I send you a follow up email, right? Yeah. And you schedule a meeting that way? Yeah. Um, I, I've actually, we've actually, I, by doing that, I have seen people like the Dean say, hey, I want you to come and, you know, join me in this effort, or I'd like you to apply for this position, um, because what you're telling me about is an issue for many places. Mm-hmm. To help us, you know, uh, maybe you can, you know, join, take, there's a position that I'm looking to create to address these, these issues. Um mm-hmm. So, yeah, but, but taking, like being able to seize that moment. Mm-hmm. Because if you end up in the elevator with the CMO and you're like, uh, hi. Right? Like, yeah. It's an opportunity. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's great. I think that's great. Tell us about some of the other things that you, um, one of the other things that you wanna talk about was the delicate dance of saying yes. Yes. And I, I, I wanna dive into that because Yeah. Tell me more about what you mean about that. Okay. So, you know, nowadays we're, we're talking a lot about boundaries, about work-life balance. Um, and that's so, so important, right? And when you are creating boundaries and work-life balance, we'd say, well, you know, you should say no. You should say, no, I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna take on this project. I'm not gonna, um, see these patients, these extra patients, whatever. And some of you know, you should say no, but there are a couple of keys to saying no, especially when you're talking about career development, even if you're, even if you're like, you know what, I don't, I don't wanna move up into my org, in my organization, or, or I, I really like doing what I do. But even being a functional, collaborative member of a clinic of your or hospital group, um, you, when, especially when you start, when you start your career, you're going to say yes to more things, initially, right, and you're gonna say yes to more things initially for a couple of reasons. Number one, you might be wanting to expand some interests into other things, so, doing, saying yes to this committee or this project gives you more experience. Maybe they're looking for, to do a quality improvement initiative in your institution, in your hospital or your clinic. You might say yes to that. You're gonna learn about QI if you don't already have that experience. It makes you more visible to other people in the institution. Right? And, and you're new and you're like, do I like this? I don't know. Maybe this is something I wanna do. So those are reasons to say yes. In the, particularly in the beginning, because you're trying out different things, finding what your passion is, and number two, the impression you make in particularly at the early, earlier in your career is really important, right? People end up looking at like, just as we talked about, you know, the woman who goes out on maternity leave, but if you say no to things all the time, then, people will sort of think like, oh, Mrinalini's not really interested in this. She, she's, you know, got a lot of stuff going on, and, and so we're not gonna ask, I'm not even gonna ask about this other opportunity that's coming up, or this other project that's coming up. So you put yourself at risk for kind of being labeled as, you know, somebody who's, just kind of want us, wanting to stay in this, in this one space. Mm-hmm. Um, and if that's what you wanna do, that's okay, but that potentially might limit you from exploring other possibilities and how you come across to your institution. So in the beginning, you're definitely gonna say more yes. The third reason to say yes, if you're, and, and this is despite whether your early career or not, is you wanna say yes to things that you are A, interested in, B, you think about, you think carefully about is this, you know, you wanna think about your career trajectory. So maybe I know that I do wanna get into the administrative side of medicine. I wanna become a Medical Director. I wanna become a Chief Medical Officer. Or I wanna have more say in how my private practice is running, right? Mm-hmm. Then if, if I want that, then I wanna say yes to the things that are going to help me get visibility or, or actually relate directly to what I wanna do. So those are things, and so one of the questions you ask yourself, is this gonna help? Does this serve me? Does this serve my career? Or does this serve this cause that I'm very passionate about? Maybe I'm, I'm really into advocacy for children. So those are the guidelines for yes. When do you say no? Mm-hmm. You say no to things that you're like, uh, I've already got five committees. I really don't need this committee that they're asking me to do. It doesn't help my career trajectory. I really don't have the bandwidth for it. Or maybe it's something I do wanna do, but then I need to switch something else out. I'm gonna stop this other committee and do this committee. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe so for example, I, I deal this a lot. Uh, I deal with this a lot in some of the, with some of the academic clients I have. If your goal is to get promoted from assistant to associate, and we know that to do that, you've gotta publish X number of papers or serve on this number of committees, we wanna say yes to those things that help that. And we, and we wanna politely say no, not at this time, to those other things. Mm-hmm. And what happens if your direct boss says, hey Laura, I'd really like you to sit on this interviewing committee mm-hmm. For this new doctor that we're bringing in, and you're like, I have so much on my plate. How do you craft that conversation, that craft conver, that conversation might be, thank you so much. I really am so exci, it's wonderful that you thought of me and I'm really flattered, but as you and I talked at my evaluation meeting, our annual evaluation meeting, in order for me to get promoted, you know, for me to work towards my promotion, I need to be working on X, Y, and Z. Mm-hmm. I need to really have that time to, to work on this paper or work on this committee mm-hmm. Or this national committee that looks, that is more important for my promotion as opposed to this local effort. And so that way not only do you say no, but you spin it in a way of, hey, we talked about this mm-hmm. And this is what you told me to do and this is what I'm doing. Yeah. Um, so there are very, there are different ways to say no that really don't come across like, oh no, I'm not gonna do this. Yeah. And again, it's about crafting it. It's about really being thoughtful about what do you say no to? What do you say yes to? Yeah. I appreciate the way you, go ahead. Go ahead. No, I said sometimes we go overboard and we're just like, no, I'm trying to like, I have to keep my space and I'm not going outside of these boundaries. And it can sometimes that you sometimes do that as a detri at a detriment to yourself. Mm-hmm. In your own practice. Yeah. Yeah. I, I appreciate the way that you frame that. And it's, and it's, and I, I, I've spoken a lot about boundaries. I talk about it in my book quite a bit. It's not, it's not this, okay, I'm setting boundaries. It means I say no to everything. But, and I, I, I hope that message didn't come across from my writings either, but it's about, like you said, being intentional. Mm-hmm. What are the things that we are going to say yes to, cause when we say, when we say yes to something, we're saying, we're saying no to something else. There's only so much time and energy that we have. And then if we are saying no to something, then what's, what there, that creates a vacuum. So what are we saying yes to in its place? And so it's really kind of, you know, how do we fit the rocks in? Um, and I just, I, I really appreciate what you said about, especially early in the career, if we know we want to become a leader, get promoted, um, kind of explore different areas. We don't know what you're gonna be interested in. And so trying different things, um, I happened, I got interested in a lot of different things, so I just tried a lot of different things. Um, and so I did QI, I did physician compensation. I did, I did a lot physician engagement. I did a lot of, a lot of different things. Um, but, but unless you, unless you try it, you really don't know and really don't know what your strengths are gonna be. Um, you don't know how you could contribute. Yeah, I think I hear that a lot is, well, I don't, I, I don't know anything about this. Um, I remember coaching somebody on, a physician on that before was asked to be on a committee and, and she said, well, I don't really know anything about it. And I said, well, that's kind of how you learn is you, it's a great opportunity to learn. Exactly. Nobody, nobody gets on, gets on the committee and knows anything about it. I, I, I literally started a committee 10 years ago in my previous organization that I didn't know anything about, but I was asked to start it and learn about it along the way. So, um, so I think, and sometimes being the inexperienced person is a good thing. Yes. Because if you don't know anything about it, you, you might be liable to think outside of the box. Yes. And some solutions that nobody else would've thought of. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You have the kind of the beginner's mind and everybody might be stuck in their own ways. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I love the way you crafted also, how to say no. Um, and I talk about this in the book too, is, and my, my previous boss was actually very protective of my time. And, um, I was lucky that he was always encouraging me to, if I got asked to do something, then okay, I, I, I can, but what am I gonna be giving up? And he would always help me to really ask myself that question as if I'm asked to, to join a new committee or do work on a new initiative then, then, okay, yes. And what, what am I gonna be, what's gonna be put on the back burner? What's something that I'm gonna be handing off so that I can make time for that so that I didn't get overwhelmed? Um, and so that's something I did get really good at is saying, saying no in a way that, um, that still honors the request, but also really serves my own needs. Um, I think, and you've probably seen this too, is that the, the hard workers are the ones that are gonna get asked, right? If you, if you need something done, you ask a busy person, right? Yeah. And so the ones that are, that are already killing it in other parts of the organization are gonna be the ones that are asked to do more work. And so, um, and so sometimes there is an opportunity to say, I thank you for considering me. I've already got these other things on my plate and I wouldn't be able to do it justice. Maybe this other person can. Or, um, you don't have to suggest somebody, but sometimes there might be somebody else you can think of. So, yeah, I, or even think of other ways that you could help, you know, maybe when you get to the state, if you need any input in this particular area, I'm happy to, yes, to meet at that time. Right. So you're not totally saying no. Yeah. And again, you shouldn't do it out of compulsion, like, oh my God, I can't say no. Um, but there's just different ways to do it. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And then the other thing that you mentioned that you wanted to talk about, and I I love this too, is creating your network. And then as we were chatting about it before we hit record, the word that came to mind for me is the village. You know, who do, yeah. Who do, who do women that you work with? Who, who do our colleagues, who do we go to for support? Um, who do we network with? Who do we surround ourselves with? So, um, so I have to say that when I, I'm actually a very, like, in some ways I'm a very social person and when I first started my clinic, you know, when I, when I got out of fellowship and I was in the clinic, like I was in the clinic, I don't know, nine and a half days or something. I love seeing my patients, I love talking to the staff, but I would get really kind of, I would feel boxed in, I'd get really sort of like lonely and craved talking to people. And, and, you know, then when I came home my husband was like, man, you have a lot to say. And I'm like, I mean, I've been talking to my patients, but I really haven't been talking to anybody else. And, and, um, you know, I, I really felt that. So I, and then, but as I've kind of advanced in my career, I'm like, oh, like when you think of networking, I think of like, oh my God, I have to, I used to think of like, oh my God, I have to like, put on this face and go talk to people and kind of schmooze and, and so, and I hate that, right? It's not comfortable. Um, so I think of network as a village or your community, right? Mm-hmm. And it's not only like, so I think about, if I'm trying to get, so I'll think about it and I kind of divide it. I have like sort of this career side of it, right? Uh, there are some overlaps. So I think of it as a circle. So on the right side, on one side I said right side, but on one side I have sort of my professional community, right? Mm-hmm. Who am I going to in terms of, hey, um, uh, in terms of my professional development, who is my intellectual community about, well this, you know, these new endocrine guidelines that came out. Um, who are my safe space, like mm-hmm. I have, I mean, I have friends in my work community that are my safe space where I can say, you know, I'm feeling un, un, uncomfortable about this, or I'm struggling with this, that I know I can confide in. And you have to really vet these people, but they're, you know, they're kind of like, I can confide in and or just like be there. Yeah. Like I'm just, I'm just going through a rough time right now and I just like, I need some space and those, they happen to be women, are amazing women, who just like we support each other. Mm-hmm. In this professional space. So, and they kind of overlap, right? There's a little bit of overlap and you have to be careful with the overlap, but, uh, and you have to be very, you have to vet who these people are, but you have to have a community. It's not just one or two or three people. Um, and then I have like, you know, who are one, the other part of that community is who are my sponsors? So sponsors are people who I. Um, I like, know you really well and identify you in other meetings where they're like, oh Mrinalini would be really great to start this initiative, or she would really be great for this, you know, the, the CMO or the Medical Director. Um, and so, who are your sponsors? And if you don't have a sponsor, well go find sponsors. And that's another conversation altogether. Um, who are the people that kind of let you know what's going on in your business world, outside of your institution, and then who, like, and then on the other side of your circle I have like, who helps me? You know, my community. Like, who am I? Like, oh my gosh, I'm like, who are my, my kid people? Right. I'm having these frustration with my kids and the whole raising my kids' community. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I, I have those, that mom network for me, has been really powerful. We support each other, we help out each other with drop off or pickup. And maybe it's just like, God, my teenager is going through this. What are you guys doing? Right? How, and you know, they're going through similar experiences or have gone through similar experiences and they help me. I have people that are role models for me. Um, I have just that, you know, so my husband and I together will have our own people who support us and that we network, that are in our network together. So it really is, you know, this, this whole village of, of people both professional, not only in terms of, this is my job. This is my specialty as an endocrinologist. I'm going to professional meetings and I have, you know, these people that I network with because that's my, you know, my specialty, but also my career trajectory also, you know, um, my, my safe space, my emotional support, my vent people. I actually have a category where I have vent people who do I vent to? Yeah. Vent to each other. And it's a totally safe space. I'm like, I don't need any solutions. I just need to be able to vent and, um, we're able to do that. So we, I actually have this kind of big spreadsheet that I have my, um, people that I'm working with fill out and we're like, oh, where do you need more people? You don't have anybody in this kid group, right, in this parenting group. Let's find more people to help you. Yeah. Cause it does take a village. Oh my gosh. It does. I, and, you know, um, talking about studies, all the studies that have been done that show that the quality of the, our relationships is the biggest predictor of our longevity. Um, and how important that is to our, our overall wellbeing. And what you said about going from training into private practice, um, you know, attending that transition. And really, I, I felt, I felt that too. I think a, I see that a lot of my clients and my colleagues, is in medical school and residency, there's there, I, I think about those times in college too for me, you know. Just the college experience for, for me, I was on campus for four, the four years is, there's always somebody there that I could go to, whether that's my roommate or my next door neighbor. In medical school, I had my own apartment, but 24 hours a day there was gonna be somebody I knew studying on campus or in a local coffee shop or residency. I mean, there's always people around, and so, just that knowing that I could just go sit with a colleague, or a friend, or somebody, or just study across from each other, and help, help make sure that we stay on task. Yeah. Um, is so important. And, and how much of that is lost, um, especially nowadays, there's not really the doctor's lounge and hospitals and, um, and so it's, I think that's so incredibly important, and having the different categories. Yeah. So yeah, I've got the, I've got the vent friends, I've got the, um, the mom group friends. Um, I've got the people that I know that are gonna kind of kick my butt a little bit, if I'm struggling with something, they'll be like, hey, remember you said you were gonna do this. And you know, then I've got the people like, hey I'm struggling with this in the business. Can you help? Can you connect me with different people? Um, can you, you know, can you sponsor me, champion me. That, that type of thing. Um, that's so, so important. It is really important, and you bring up a really good point about it's, you don't really think about it in college or even in residency, right. You're with all these people, you're in a very intense environment together and you, there's this bonding there, and you have a community, but when you're an attending, now you have to, you know, you have to be able to maintain a certain persona, um, and you, and it's harder. And, and even, I mean, I, that's really also part of adulthood. You have to just do, cultivate this network with, with, with intention. Right. It has to be very intentional and, and thoughtful in terms of what you do, so it requires a little bit more work, but it. Yeah. Doesn't have to be, you know, really uncomfortable. Yeah. I know memes about, ah, making friends as an adult, and just kinda how hard it can be sometimes. Perfect. And yeah, and a lot of times, um, my daughter, my daughter's 17, now, she's a senior in high school, but a lot of times the, when they're little, the people you spend time with are gonna be the parents of other small kids, because that's who you get together with, and, um. Yeah. But some of the, some of the pe, friends that I made when she was little are still some of my closest friends. And so, uh, yeah, same. Same. Yeah. And she's got her small group of friends, and the moms of those friends, we all have our group chat, and we're also, you know, helping each other out when, times get tough, and we need to, need somebody to lean on and, which my daughter thinks is hilarious. She's like, you guys all have a group chat? And I'm like, yeah, and we don't just talk about you guys. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, but we need each other. We're, um, so yeah, I love it. Thank you so much. It's so wonderful to talk to you. Is there anything else that you'd like to share before we close out the podcast today? Um, well I just wanted to say thank you so much for having me. Um, the, you know, advancing, uh, oh, advancing women, especially in this era of, of women leaving medicine, is something I'm so passionate about. So, I could go on and talk about these things forever, but, um, I appreciate you having me. Um, if, if anybody, any of your listeners are interested in, in talking or if anything resonated with them, um, you know, they can feel free to email me. Um, I think you're gonna post my email. Yes. We'll include your email in the show notes for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, to, to speak. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you. So wonderful to have you. I really had a lot of fun. This was. Yeah. Me too. Great. Great, thanks. While I am a physician, the information presented in this podcast is for educational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please consult with your own healthcare provider before making any significant changes to your lifestyle or routine. By listening to this podcast, you are not creating a physician patient relationship. Thank you for listening to the Purposeful MD Podcast. If you like what you hear, please rate and review the show. Please also visit my website, www.thepurposefulmd.com for free downloads or to discuss working with me as your coach.