Episode 39: Leading with Fanatical Grace

In this episode of The Purposeful MD Podcast, Dr. Laura Suttin welcomes Alan Utley, a speaker, coach, and culture crafter with 25 years in senior HR leadership. Alan shares his journey from accidental HR beginnings to pioneering the “Fanatical Grace” framework — a powerful approach to transforming workplace culture through humanity, accountability, and kindness.

This conversation is filled with laughter, honest reflection, and practical wisdom for any physician or healthcare leader navigating complex teams and high-pressure environments.

You’ll learn:

• Why “being nice” isn’t enough — and what truly compassionate leadership looks like
• How the Fanatical Grace framework helps teams shift from fear and pressure to trust and flow
• What physicians can do — even without formal authority — to influence their workplace culture
• How accountability and grace can coexist to foster high performance and deep connection
• A powerful example of parenting (and leadership) through presence instead of pressure
  
  
  

🎧 Bonus: Hear Alan and Laura take part in a live sample of his leadership style assessment!

Learn more about Alan and take his free leadership assessment: mycoachnextdoor.com

Connect with Alan here -

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/AlanDUtley | linkedin.com/company/my-coach-next-door/ | Instagram and TikTok: @MyCoachNextDoor | Email: alan@mycoachnextdoor.com

Transcript

0:08

Welcome to the Purposeful MD Podcast. As a physician, you've sacrificed so much of your life for other people, your patients, your family, your friends, and your colleagues. What would it feel like to spend time doing what you enjoy and to live without guilt? I'm your host, Dr. Laura Suttin, a family physician, certified coach, and business owner. If you're a medical professional on a journey towards your most purposeful life, a life with more time and energy, and ultimately more joy, then this is the podcast for you. Welcome to the Purposeful MD Podcast. So excited to have my guest today. I'll introduce him here shortly, Alan Utley, he is a good friend of mine and a, a colleague of mine in many different walks of life, so Alan, thanks for being here. Of course, thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to spend time with you, Laura. Yeah, you too. We've had some roadblocks to get here, but we're, we're here now. We've had some challenges with scheduling, but we're here now, so let me just read your bio. Okay. So Alan Derek Utley is a certified speaker and coach, with 25 years of senior HR experience, dedicated to detoxifying workplace cultures, and creating spaces that spark growth, where people actually want to work, that is a, amazing concept, I love it. He developed a revolutionary Fanatical Grace framework, helping organizations build environments, where humanity flourishes, and both people and profits thrive, love it. Alan has helped numerous organization, organizations, across various industries, slash turnover rates, and boost engagement scores, proving that compassionate leadership drives exceptional results, yes. Based in San Antonio, Alan and his wife Melissa, are the proud parents of two incredibly gorgeous, and hilarious little ones, and dedicated Disney enthu, enthusiasts. Alan also serves as a leadership committee chair for the Leukemia Lymphoma Society's Visionaries of the Year Campaign, bringing his passion for positive change to philanthropic efforts, love that too. We could talk about all of that for, hours and hours, and days and days, so. I, I just love all the positive affirmations in my bio. Thank you for that. Yes. I wanna say you added the gorgeous part for the children, and thank you. Oh, yeah. I appreciate that. Well, they are, we're, we're gonna drop a link to your TicTok. Um, and so folks need to follow you, and see all the incredibly cute things that your children do. Thank you. Yes, I actually have the two TicToks. I've got one as a parent and one as a coach, so let's, let's get'em both out there. Yeah. Or not. Yeah, I love it. Alright, so Alan, tell us how your journey brought you to where you are. Wow. Well, I've been working, thank you for that question. Um, it's a big one. I've been working in human resources for 25 years, and would, I always like to say it, it was sort of an accidental profession in the very beginning, as it was for many. But I did it because my, um, at the time in college, my girlfriend's father, when we were visiting home one day, um, he recommended it. We were sitting in the kitchen and I was talking about this sales career I wanted, and he said, you know, you should check out HR, and wanting to please, which is kind of my brand. I, uh, I said, sure, why not? So I got my HR degree. Um, he eventually became my father-in-law, and still is to this day, so that was a good call on my part. But that's, that's why I started the HR career, and, discovered in the very beginning that I did not like it, and it's because I didn't find my groove yet, I hadn't figured out what part of HR was actually a good fit for me, but then I did. I found recruiting first, which was sales by the way. Uh,'cause you're connecting a person to a job, and a job to a person, so I thought that was a perfect marriage of the two. But then I discovered what I really, so recruiting was sort of my first love, but my, my, my, uh, my soulmate, my passion from a career perspective is, is training and development, specifically leadership development. So I, I started, um, pursuing that path, while maintaining my generalist knowledge and abilities. And through my 25 years, uh, have grown into various senior leadership roles. Worked across a, a bunch of different industries, from aerospace, to manufacturing, to hospitality, to financial services. And I share that because, as an HR professional, you really can't go to any industry. You just gotta learn the business. But there's the fundamental, aspect to it that, that is always the same as labor laws, but then there's also how to work with people, how to lead people, how to create cultures. And that leads me to where I am today. So I, I, I, I look at myself as a culture crafter, that's sort of the name that I've given myself. And wherever I go, my focus is try to create a workplace where people want to show up to work. And I do that today, a, as a, as a practicing HR leader, I work for a company today, day to day. Um, it's, it keeps me fresh, but then on top of that, I bring my experience. So I work on, I work outside, so I work inside out, but then also outside in. So I come alongside leaders, I coach them, I provide training, I do workshops with teams, and it's all around, leadership, and it's really these days, centered around my Fanatical Grace framework, which I know you wanna get into, but it, it's the framework that I discovered, I've created, and, and I'm bringing to, uh, organizations today. And the, the response, has been tremendous, and I'm so excited to get it out there, and to talk more about it with you today. That's so cool. I, so I think you might be the first guest I've had that started their career by, because they wanted to impress their, uh, their partner's dad. I think that's so cool. It worked right. I, I advise it, it worked out. He was a smart person. He knew what he was talking about. It worked, yeah. And I, so you and I connected a couple years ago through LLS, and I, I, I definitely wanna, wanna wrap that for a little bit too. Yeah. But just, you know, when you and I connected, and, and realized we were both in the coaching world, and I just, I felt this resonance from you, where, you, saw possibilities for what could be in the workplace, and, so now are seeking to change it, and, just your messages on social media and, and what I hear you speak are just incredible. And so really grateful to get to, to absorb that from you, and to know you personally. And I think a lot of our listeners, as physicians, kind of feel, and we were talking about this before we hit record, kind of feel like they're maybe stuck in a, in an environment that they don't wanna be in or can't necessarily impact, um, some of the things that are going on around them, whether or not they're practice owners or whether or not they're part of a a, an organization healthcare system, there's a lot of things outside the physician's control, and I think when I work with physicians and coach them, I always try to help them to see how they really do influence whether or not they have an official title, how they really can influence the, the environment around them. How can they have a, a, a bigger impact on their staff or on the patients, and, and so, uh, yeah, help us with that. Help us if, if there's a physician or a healthcare professional that's kind of in this space, where they are seeing, maybe they themselves don't wanna come to work, and it's clear, maybe they are noticing people that, that work, that they work with that just kind of seem unhappy, there's just this general kind of malaise in the workplace, um,, how do we shift that? That, that's a great, it's a big question, another big question, and, and it is something I've been thinking a lot about, and I think, not to oversimplify it, but I think what I've come down to, I, I used to always just say, everyone should just show up to work and be nice, and, and I can't help but say that, because that's just how I'm wired, and positivity, optimism, being nice, and all those things. But I realized that being nice isn't enough, because there are the realities of, whether we're running a profit business or a nonprofit business, there are things we have to achieve in order to stay in business, in order to accomplish the mission of the organization. And so what that leads to is, this, I think the, the current environment that a lot of organizations experience or teams experience is in order to get results, they think the quickest way to get to results is either through leveraging power, seeking perfection, or using a whole lot of pressure. And what the realities are, while we think that works, the realities are, pressure creates leaks, power eventually runs out, and when we're seeking perfection, people either get po, they, they either get, what's the phrase, um, they get blinded by the shine of perfection, or they reveal themselves as pretending. And, and that's inauthentic. And people quickly realize you don't know what you're doing and you don't, and you're not performing. And, and, and what we do when we, when we, when we do those things, we get further and further away from our humanity. We get further and further away from what really truly makes us great as human beings, and we lose the ability to bring our best selves to the work. So I think that's the current reality that we're in. And I, I describe that in my Fanatical Grace framework with the, the current state being a state of fixing, a state of forcing, and a state of fear. So you said, how do we shift? Well, the shift that's built into my framework is moving from fixing, forcing, and fear, to a more healthy state of forging, flowing, and freedom. And freedom may seem counterintuitive, because we actually hire people to do a job, and you need to give them instructions, but within my framework, the idea of freedom is really letting Laura show up to work, and discovering what Laura's abilities are. Bring, letting Laura bring innovation, letting, Lo, Laura bring ideas, and experiment, and try, and, um, and then discover, and transform. So when you, when you move from that, from that state to this new state, that's where transformation happens, and that's when we let humanity in the front door. We give it a cor, give it a corner office, and we watch it thrive, and that's how teams thrive. And I know that sounds so perfect and utopian, but I believe it,'cause I've seen it. Yeah. And, and I've worked in it for 25 years, and this is how I coach people, and I see the transformations every day. Yeah. So you see it, and you know it's possible, and you know it exists, and it's, you know, it's so interesting to me, course I've been in healthcare for, however many years, and you would think that hu, that humanity or you'd think that healthcare would be the one environment where humanity thrives, and it's, it's so often not the case. And, there you've mentioned pressure, and perfection, and I mean, our healthcare professionals are feeling that all the time. I don't know if it's a, it's chicken or the egg, you know, which came first, as far as the perfectionism or going into healthcare, but it's really, really pervasive. Yeah. And I, it's, it's pervasive in other professions too. You think about law, or education, or finance, I mean, there's this, su, such a pressure to do everything perfectly, and never screw up, and, and you get punished for making a mistake. And um, and I'm sure you've seen this in your HR, your HR experience as well, and that, that fear of being punished. You know, you mentioned fear is, can really, um, just, it stifles innovation, and that's exactly what you were saying. I've seen, you know, I've seen situations where, um, I was in a, a, an, a healthcare environment once, where one of our staff members was so afraid of getting written up for, for staying 15 minutes past 5:00 PM to help a patient that was still in the building, help her get her transportation home, and everything, that she kind of like shuffled the patient out, like, you know, she was doint what, she was doing what she needed to do to protect herself, because she was fearful of getting in trouble for taking that overtime. Yeah. When the right thing to do, from a top down perspective, would've been to see this patient needs us, it might mean 15 minutes of overtime for the staff. How do we make this work? So I, I, I mean, I, I really feel like I resonate with everything you're saying and it's, it's so, yeah, common in the healthcare space. And so I love that framework of moving, moving from the fear and the pressure. And I, I'm blanking on all the words you said, but the freedom and, yes, tell us again what you said. Freedom, yeah. So the, the, the new reality, the, the new world of work, I, as I see it for cultures, is a state of forging. Which is not fixing, if forging is taking the raw talent and, and making it into something great based on the, the, the, the, based on you, mm-hmm, and what your natural abilities are. Not trying to be something else, not trying to create a clone of another leader,'cause all you get are, are carbon copies that are faded. Right. Right. So that's the forging. And then there's the, the second one, which is flowing. So that's, and lemme give you an example, that's actually a parenting example. But it's, and I think everyone will probably resonate with it. So a, a few months back, I needed to take my child in for a flu shot, right. And his reaction was to throw himself on the floor, kick his legs, threw himself into the beanbag, and he said, I'm not going, I'm not going, I'm not going. My instinct, every parent's instinct, is to pick him up, and push him out the door, so we're going, and that's, that's the current reality of, um, of forcing, we're, we're gonna go get the flu shot. And, and it could have taken us a long time to get him out the door. He could have been kicking and screaming, causing a commotion. So as a parent, I fought through my every instinct to push, and chose instead to just sit there. And I let him breathe it out. And I breathed it out. I breathed through it. It took maybe 10 minutes, but once he was done kicking and screaming, got himself up, went to his mom, his mom patted him on the back, picked him up, I took his hand, and we calmly walked out the door, and he got his flu shot like a champ. Mm-hmm. So that's the flow, right? Just allow things to naturally evolve. Mm-hmm. Rather than push, it's in, in a work setting, it's the leaders who say, I need this by five o'clock on Friday, and then on Wednesday they say, how are you doing on that report? Like, why are you for, like, you've already given me the deadline, give me the space, give me that, you've give, like, let me operate, let me work. Why would, why this extra pressure? Why this extra force? It's, yeah, it's unnecessary, you know? Does that make sense? Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, you, you gave him, the safe, the, the, the space, but also the safety, like he felt safe with you. Yeah. And that's something that is missing in a lot of healthcare environments, a lot of workplace environments today, is that safety, um, that the, psychological safety. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it is, yeah. And, and I love that you said space, because my, my sort of tagline is create space. Spark growth. Mm-hmm. When, when you create space for either it is to just be not okay in that moment, space, create space to cry, space case, create space to be mad. But there's also create space for innovation. This creates space for belonging. There's create, like you could put anything at the end of that sentence, and it applies. And when we intentionally as leaders, challenge the way we're doing things today, and create space for something new, and something different, then results start to flow when we lift ourselves, our teams then lift. When we, when we lift our team, they lift each other, and then you lift your business. That's what happens. Yes. The rising tide. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah, and another thing that I hear from you a lot, and feel from you, and we're chatting about this a bit before as well, is that that vulnerability, so the leader doesn't pretend that he or she is perfect at everything. Yeah. Doesn't pretend that they know everything. Yeah. And the willingness to say it's okay to make a mistake, and I've made mistakes too. Here's how I've, here's how I've screwed up, and here's how I'm gonna support you if and when those things happen. And I think that's something that we could use a ton more of in any leadership environment, is leaders that show up, and, admit that they're not perfect, and they don't know. Totally agree. And this is, uh, a trap that I see a lot of new leaders fall into, but you know what, I see leaders who've been doing it for 20 years fall into that trap as well. Yeah. But if you, if you think about the new leader, let, let's take someone who's been promoted into their very first role, very first leadership role. They got promoted, because they were a technical expert, right? They were an individual contributor, really, really good. And somebody said, okay, now you teach other people how to do that. Now you manage everyone. So first of all, we've set them up for failure, because we didn't actually teach them how to lead or manage, which is just what everybody does. Yeah. They know how to do their, their job, but not how to do the job of management. Then they get into this role, and they, so they have this idea of, okay, I'm the boss now. Mm-hmm. And, and then there's a little bit of token power that's handed to them, and they start to use it, because they think that they have to know all, be all, do all. Nobody teaches them. You don't. You're now responsible for learning a new set of skills, and helping your team. And it's okay if you make mistakes. So we want you to be honest about what you don't know,'cause when they start pretending, and they start faking it, I'm okay with fake it till you make it in some aspects of life, but in this aspect, you gotta be honest about what you know, and what you don't know, because when you start pretending, then you start lying, and then you start hiding. And then you start making errors, and things get worse, and worse, and worse, so let's stop pretending. Let's just be honest about what we know, and don't know, but we have to make it safe to do that. Yeah. And that is the tone that the entire culture needs to create. It needs to be a learning environment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, I see that in physician leaders too, and I, I see it, and I experienced it for myself when I was, moving from being a full-time practicing physician, to having a leadership role, and I coach my physician leaders on this as well, is that the skills that made me a good physician, are almost counter to the skills that are gonna help me in my leadership. It's, like you said, individual contributor. It's very much like, okay, what am I gonna do to impact my patients, and my own microcosm? But as a, as a leader of physicians, I had to step out of that. I had to step out of that, like I know everything mindset, and I'm in control, and be much more vulnerable, much more willing to accept help. I mean, that's something that a lot of physicians, and other professionals just, we're taught, do everything ourselves, don't accept help. Yeah. And the experiences that you have to, otherwise, it's, we, we're gonna burn ourselves out. And so, the other thing that I see, is unclear expectations a lot, and unclear guardrails, and authority, um, physician leaders will step into this role, and they're like, I don't really know what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to manage this clinic, but what does that mean, and how do I, how do I operate with, maybe an operational leader, who's also in that role, and it's like an arranged marriage, we've never worked together before, but now we have to co-parent and co-lead this, this team. Yeah. And what are, what are the expectations? How do we communicate with each other? It's, it's a recipe for disaster. I couldn't begin to know how to operate a clinic. That sounds really, really hard, but I, I do know that, yeah, you have to be honest about, I don't know what I'm doing, what, in fact, I think, I think what new leaders need to be good at is, is knowing how to ask questions. Yeah. And how to use the resources. Yes. And, and even today, I've been doing this job for 25 years. Every day I discover something, I don't know. Mm-hmm. And, and I'm okay with asking, I'm okay with saying, I don't actually know the answer to that. Mm-hmm. But you know what, let's figure it out. Yeah. And, and I know who to call, who to start with. Yeah. And when my team calls me, I'm the first, I'm okay with admitting that, if you called them and asked them, they would say, absolutely. He admits when he doesn't know something, and we still like him, we still think he's our leader. Yeah. So to be a leader, you don't have to know everything. Right. You just gotta know how to figure stuff out. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I learned that the hard way by feeling like I had to know everything, and, I, I remember certain situations where I wasn't, like, I wasn't actively making things up, but I was not telling, I was telling what I thought was the full picture, and it wasn't the full picture.'cause I just didn't know. And so, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't agree with you more. And by the way, I'm making myself sound perfect here and I'm not. I, I make mistakes every day, and I'm willing to admit when I make those mistakes. Yeah. And you know, the, the, the first time I actually even learned this whole concept of it's okay to admit when you're not wrong, when you're, when you don't know, was my very first job as an, as a leader. I had a, um, a, uh, a specialist, uh, an employee relations specialist on my team who worked at another operation. And she called me once and I, and asked me a question that I probably should have known the answer to, and the first thing outta my mouth,'cause I can't filter myself sometimes was, I don't know. A week later, she came back to me and said, I wanted to tell you that I really admired the fact that you admitted that. Mm-hmm. You didn't pretend you didn't act like, and I was like, oh yeah, okay. That's good. And I filed that away and I've kept it with me ever since. Yeah. So you learned from your team all the time. Yeah. And I think that's a great example for, physicians who they're, if they're mentoring others, which all physicians are mentoring their staff, mentoring people around them, to celebrate when somebody says, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure, I don't know, but let's, like you said, let's figure it out. I'm gonna go find out, type of thing. That's, that's again, when physicians were, when we were in our training, if we didn't know the answer to a question, it was like the kiss of death when we were with our attendings, and so we still carry that with us. Yeah. And so just to hear that reinforced of it's okay not to know. It's okay not to know. And not to know, it's okay to not be okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's another big one. And by the way, you just said celebrations, so that's another one. Create space for celebration. Yes, yes. Yeah. Again, that's, that's something that, that's something that we don't do enough. That's something that I, I actively work on with my clients when they have a win, is like, what are you gonna do to celebrate? And they're like, well, it's not that big of a deal, you know? Yeah it is. It is, it is. Yeah. Listen Laura, I need a cheerleader at the end of every finish line, every day. I'm all about celebration. I don't get enough. I need more celebrations in my life. Yeah, I think we all do. I think we all do. So you have this assessment, and you mentioned that you wanted to share it, and wanted to give folks an example of what this would look like, so, are you up for it? I am up for it. So, okay. Tell us, well tell us about it a little bit, enough so that people can find it,'cause I know people are gonna be curious. Absolutely. So lemme tell you where you can find it first, and then if you're interested, you can go get it. So go to my website, which is mycoachnextdoor.com. Um, you can go there, learn more about me, learn more about Fanatical Grace. You can, um, also contact me, book me for, uh, speaking engagement, a team workshop or connect coach. Um, but there you'll find the free assessment. It's a few different places you can click on it, and download it. So what is the assessment? So it's the Fixed Force Fear assessment, and it's based on my Fanatical Grace framework. And in, in order to shift your culture, shift your team, shift your style, you need to know where you are today. So this self-assessment will tell you what your current style is. Now, no one's gonna admit to being a bad leader, and that's not what this assessment is, is measuring, because if you think about the origin of fixing, enforcing, and fear, they come from a good place. Right, at some point in your career, you were taught to seek perfection, because that's how you get things done. And, and there is value in that. Like, do, if you're gonna do work, do quality work, right? So that's where that comes from. And then, uh, forcing things is about, you know what, let's just, we're gonna get this done. We're on a deadline, we're gonna work hard, we're gonna achieve. So that comes from a place of achievement, good intentions. Um, I have a hard time with finding the good intentions behind fear, but maybe I'll, I'll keep working on that. Um, but I think it's really more about control. Um, so it's not about fear, it's about control. And if, again, if you're a high achiever, and you wanna be good at your job, and do quality work, you're gonna try to control those outcomes. Mm-hmm. And in some cases that works. But what happens is, if you like, with anything, if you overdo it, overuse it, become a one trick pony, it tends to become something negative, it tends to hinder performance, hinder outcomes, hinder relationships. So it's good to know where are our tendencies. Mm-hmm. And that's what the fixed force sphere style assessment will measure. So I thought it could be fun to just show a few examples of some of the questions, and see what, what your thoughts would be. Sure. And, uh, and we'll get kind of an idea of where you might be. And then what, what happens is once you know, then it leads you to the Fanatical Grace blueprint, which walks you through the framework and shows you, here is a plan you can create for yourself. Uh, now you won't get the, the, the, the plan. You have to contact me if you want the plan, but the assessment is available online. Okay, so here's my first question for you, Dr. Suttin. Um, so tell me how you would rate this question. So this is a statement actually, so te, you're gonna rate it on a scale from one to four. Okay. So one is something you would never do, okay? Two, you would rarely do this, maybe on bad days. Three sometimes, and now you're feeling attacked. And four, you would often do this. Um, and you're wondering how I got access to your diary. Okay. Okay. So that's one through four. So question number one or statement number one, I have often practiced saying I'm not a micromanager in the mirror. I'm not a micromanager. Yeah, that's, that's not something that, no, that's not something that I do. Okay, great. So that's a one. So you never, okay, great. So I'll give you a one for that. Um, my team's mistakes often feel like a personal betrayal, 1, 2, 3, or 4? I'd say a two. Two, okay Rarely, um, I consider good enough to be fighting words. Um, what do you mean by that? Well, I don't know, what do you think I mean? What do you, so let's say somebody completes a task, and you look at it, and you think, this is just not good. And they say, well, it's good enough. Let's, let's go, let's move on. Good enough to be fighting words. Um, I would say a three. Three, okay. All right, and then, uh, here's the last one from this first one. So let me show you how I would do it, is your catchphrase. Oh yeah, I do that a lot. Okay. So that's a four. So that's a four, okay, all right, so that's in the, the fixed category. Yes. Okay. So that, that's, and, and hopefully you're seeing that these questions are built in a way to, it is just, it's kind of accessible, it's kind of an approachable, it's kind of just a fun, silly way to look at things. Mm-hmm. But it hopefully opens up a dialogue, and opens up some self-reflection. So in the force category, let me give you a few examples. Um, hey, just checking in is your love language. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay, we got one. We got one as a four, yeah. That's a four, okay. Um, uh, no pressure but, is your favorite way to start a conversation. Uh, two. Two, okay. Um, I measure your commitment by how quickly you respond to my respon, my emails on the weekend. Oh, no. Okay. I, that's a one,'cause I gotta have those boundaries. You got some boundaries, all right. Um, and let's say your calendar needs a few more hours in everyone else's day. Um, no, that's a one. No, that's a one, okay, alright, so that was the force category. That was a, that was a sampling of some of those statements. And now, let's look at the fear category or sort of the control category, okay. Um, it's also the power category. The, there's a few different words you could use to describe it, okay. So I trust my team to do exactly what I tell them to do. Um, I feel like that's a trick question. Okay, say more, say more. So, uh, the trust I feel like is a good thing, but then it, the, the doing exactly what I say, that seems like a, a, uh, a twist. So, yeah, yeah. It, it's intentional. So I trust my team to do what I tell them to do, or, or I trust my team to do it the way I would do it, maybe is a better way to put that. Um, I mean, I trust my team, but they might do it a different way than I would. Okay. And that causes me a little bit of anxiety and fear. So how would you rate that? Interesting, interesting. okay. Well, it's really more about not the fear you feel, but the fear you impart. Oh. So, if you are not forcing them to do it your way, if you were, even though it's creating some anxiety for you, and that's natural, you're allowing them, so I, I would probably give that a lower score. Okay, so a two. All right. So my approval process has an approval process. Um, no. Okay, that's a one. All right. And then let's, let's do that, this other one. Um, my door is always open during pre-scheduled office hours. Um, I mean, I, I feel like my door is always open. I don't, so I, I can, I can sense the irony in your, in it as you're, because you're laughing about it. Um, yeah, so yeah. I'll be honest, I'll give myself a three on this one. I, I'm okay with an open door, but I do like control over my schedule. I do, yeah, I would give myself a three. All right, here's the last one. Innovation is great. I'm all for innovation, as long as nothing changes. Um, that would be a three also. Okay, got it. Yeah. Alright, so I'm not gonna give you a full score, because we didn't do the whole thing, but hopefully that gives you a sense for the kind of discussion that creates, and the reflection that creates. Yeah. And, and it does, there's a scoring guide in there, that, that for each of those three categories, gives you a high, medium, and a mild, mm-hmm, answer, and then tells you what to do with that. Yeah. What to do next. Yeah, I love it. I love it. It's, you know, I, um, I am, I'm on that journey just like you of, uh, as a business owner, you know, there's this aspect of like, well, I want things done a certain way. And, um, and even with my, even if, with my kids, you know, I, so my daughter's, uh, just graduated high school, and I've noticed this with her about, I mean, I want to impart all this knowledge to her and, and help her to do things a certain way. And yet she's a very different person, and she's gonna do things her own way. And so that letting go process is, you as a parent of two small kids, yeah, you're seeing this too, as your kids become more independent, and so it's definitely a learning experience, um, that, yeah absolutely, that sometimes that trust, and that relationship can be broken down, when we try to force, we try to apply pressure, and then if we, just like your example with your son, just kind of let go, and if you're watching this on YouTube, you saw Alan's reaction was just to like this physical giving, yeah, letting go, moving backwards, giving of space, and, um, it was hard, had to do with intention. It was difficult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it, it was, now it's gonna be easier for you, because you practiced it. Oh yeah. Right. Sure. Um, it, yeah. You know, good habits create a while to create, right? Yes. Because we have these bad habits that we have and, and I've learned more about myself since becoming a parent than I ever knew Yeah. About what my hot buttons are and my pet peeves, and where I need to do more work. And you know what? I have a lot of work to do in a space of grace, even though I'm the"Grace Guy" and I talk about grace. Mm-hmm. It, it is a challenge every day and, you know, and there's an aspect to it, I think that's important that we talk about, which is Fanatical Grace is not, creating a space where there's no accountability. Uh, it's not about creating a space where there's no results,'cause back to my, my starting point, which was I always thought being nice was the way to go, but I realized that when you're nice and someone calls you nice, you, they're kind of calling you a pushover. Mm-hmm. And, we're not running country clubs here. Right. Unless you actually are, which is actually just a business, but, mm-hmm, also a business. But I guess the point I'm making is when, when I hire you to work for me, I still have to start with, here's the job I hired you for. Here are my expectations, here are the results that I need. Mm-hmm. And then everything happens in the middle is me leveraging your talents, your strengths, your abilities, but also course correcting. Like, I love what you're doing there, but the results aren't what we need. So let me coach you through finding a better way. I have some ideas. I could just tell you how to do it, and sometimes I need to. Mm-hmm. Especially if I need a result now. And maybe that's called micromanagement, but that's also about getting results. Sometimes micromanagement gets a bad rap, but it's only because we overuse it. There are times that you need to, I think we could do a whole session on that actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but my job as a leader is to course correct you and keep you inspired and keep you motivated and help you find the best way to do your work and get your best results through you. And I still have to hold you accountable to those results at the end. Yeah. So, yeah. Grace isn't about that. Grace is about transforming us into something better to get greater results, greater, more extraordinary outcomes than we ever could have imagined, because we're letting humanity in. Yeah. I, I love that and I think it's a really great distinction for people who feel like, well, I, you know, I'm just, I can't let people walk all over me. And the Yeah. The differentiation that comes up in my mind is a difference between nice and kind. You know, I love, it's not the kind thing to do, to let somebody completely go off the rails, and the kind thing to do is to, is to course correct them and to help them become the best version of themselves, like you said. And so. I, I, that kinda my example before about setting expectations for a new leader, the kind thing is to, to sit somebody down and say, here's exactly what is is expected in this role. Here are your guardrails, here are the boundaries, and I'm gonna be there to catch you if you go off the rails and I'm gonna be there and I'm, I'm going to, I'm here to help you. Um, and it's not about just letting you kind of make it up as you go, but. Helping you to see when you might need to go a different direction because we do have to get the results. And so I really love that that call out. And I think that's, that's so important. Something that we often forget. And with ourselves too. How do we set boundaries within ourselves and, and how do we show kindness for ourselves and. So that's, yeah, that's, that's ab absolutely. Such a key aspect to this.'cause there's, there's about grace for, there's the grace that you demonstrate to others. Mm-hmm. But then also you gotta give yourself grace as well. Yes. When, when you don't get the results you wanted, when you don't achieve a deadline, even though you did everything you could, and there were external factors that you couldn't control, breathe through it. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be okay. Yes. And you're gonna get there. Maybe not on the original timeline, maybe not exactly how you envisioned it, but you're gonna get there. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. That's my pep talk for the day. All right. So you and I were brought together through Leukemia Lymphoma Society. We've gotta give some airtime to this. Yes. Incredible organization. So, yes. Tell us. I mean, I, of course I know all about it, but I want to make sure our listeners know Yeah. What, what LLS is and how they can get involved in their own communities. Absolutely. So LLS is this incredible organization that was founded by a family who lost a child to leukemia. Um, you'll have to fact check me on that. I know it was, it was, it was leukemia, lymphoma, something. So, um. And, and they put this organization together so that, that no, no family would ever have to lose a child again. And, and today, all these years later, we have these incredible campaigns every year that fund what they're trying to do. And they're focusing on, um, advocacy work. They're focusing on research, and they're also supposed focusing on patient support. Those are sort of the three pillars that LLS raises money for. And, and you and I got involved as part of the Visionaries of the Year campaign. Both as committee members, uh, chair, we were chairs together. Mm-hmm. Which was an honor to be a chair with you. And there's also student visionaries of the year, which I think is great. And I wish I had been involved in that when I was a child. I mean, what else was I doing? I was in theater and choir and having fun and they were students who were raising money. I think that's such a great thing for students to get involved in. And there's also the light the night, which a lot of people are familiar with. Um, so if people wanna get involved, I would say, look up your local chapter in San Antonio, contact me, contact Laura. Mm-hmm. And we can absolutely get you involved in that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, LLS is a, I've been involved with them for five years. I'm on the local board of trustees now, and I just, it's so, um, it's, it's so fun. It's fun to work with amazing people like you and, and the team and just to, to raise money for an incredible cause, incredible organization like you said. Um, and lls.org is the website. I encourage people to look, look there and either donate their, uh, their time or whatever they can give, um, or get involved in a campaign and help with fundraising'cause it's changed my life so. Me too. And I got involved simply because someone contacted me and said, do you wanna be a part of this and someone I care about and trust? And I said, absolutely. And, and I did it'cause of my kids.'cause I, I, I, I wanna be a good role model for them, but I also wanna create a world where there's no cancer. Um, it's, it's a big ask, but a worthy one. So. That's why I do it. And I stay involved because of all the incredible people that I get to meet and interact with. And, and knowing that every dollar we raise is helping someone somewhere. Yes. Love it. Thank you so much for being on Alan. It's so, I like you. I feel like I could talk to you for hours and we are lucky enough that we get to hang out occasionally and, uh, do cool LLS things together and just really grateful to have you on today. Thank you, Laura. This was incredible. I was so honored to be asked and yes, we could, let's just, let's get together and have coffee. We'll continue the conversation. Sounds good. And we'll hit record and, and play it for everybody. Perfect. And we'll, we'll put all the links in the show notes, show notes to how folks can find you and reach out to you. And, um, so yeah. Thank you. Thank you. While I am a physician, the information presented in this podcast is for educational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please consult with your own healthcare provider before making any significant changes to your lifestyle or routine. By listening to this podcast, you are not creating a physician patient relationship. Thank you for listening to the Purposeful MD Podcast. If you like what you hear, please rate and review the show. Please also visit my website, www.thepurposefulmd.com for free downloads or to discuss working with me as your coach.