The Soil Network: Episode 5 - Shawn Catherwood, Dr. Joel Gruver, and Brandon Schlautman

Episode 5: Bridging Innovation and Sustainability in Agriculture with Shawn Catherwood, Dr. Joel Gruver, and Brandon Schlautman

Join us for an engaging episode of the Soil Network podcast, recorded live from the Innovative Farmers Association of Ontario conference in Kitchener, Ontario. Host Ian Virtue brings together three outstanding guests: Shawn Catherwood, a leading voice in regenerative agriculture; Dr. Joel Gruver, a soil science professor and conservation expert; and Brandon Schlautman, a pioneering scientist in perennial cropping systems.

In this episode, our guests dive deep into their unique perspectives on sustainable agriculture:

• Shawn Catherwood shares his dual experience as a family grain farmer in Saskatchewan and his role with PepsiCo, focusing on developing and executing regenerative agriculture programs that align with corporate sustainability goals. Shawn emphasizes the importance of collaboration across the food supply chain to promote sustainability from field to table.
• Dr. Joel Gruver discusses his mission in education, facilitating the next generation of sustainable agriculture leaders. He highlights the importance of integrating ecological and global perspectives into the agricultural curriculum and fostering learning communities that support innovation and resilience in farming practices.
• Brandon Schlautman brings insights from his work at The Land Institute in Kansas, where he leads efforts in developing perennial legume systems. Brandon talks about the challenges and opportunities of introducing perennial crops into traditional row cropping systems, aiming to enhance soil health and agricultural sustainability.

The conversation covers a range of crucial topics, including:

• The impact of climate change on agriculture and the innovative solutions being implemented to address these challenges.
• The role of perennial crops and other regenerative practices in building resilient farming systems.
• The economic viability of sustainable agricultural practices and the importance of demonstrating their benefits to farmers.
• The significance of cross-disciplinary collaboration in tackling complex agricultural problems and driving systemic change.

Listeners will gain valuable insights into:

• Strategies for integrating sustainable practices into conventional farming systems.
• The role of education and community-building in promoting sustainable agriculture.
• Practical examples of how farmers can leverage new technologies and practices to improve soil health and farm resilience.

Guest Information:

• Shawn Catherwood: A family grain farmer from Saskatchewan and Canada Regina Engagement Lead for PepsiCo, focusing on regenerative agriculture programs. Connect on Twitter @CatherwoodShawn.
• Dr. Joel Gruver: Professor at Western Illinois University, teaching soil science and conservation classes, with research interests in organic grain production and innovative cropping systems. Learn more about his work here.
• Brandon Schlautman: Lead scientist for the perennial legume pro

Thanks for tuning in to the Soil Network Podcast!

If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a fellow farmer or agri-curious friend. Don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss a conversation about farming smarter, growing better, and building stronger communities.

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Let’s keep growing—together. See you next time!

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:01:03
Unknown
To everyone at home.

00:00:01:03 - 00:00:07:26
Unknown
thank you for watching. My name is Ian Virtue. This is the Combines and Coffee podcast. We are at the Innovative Farmers Association conference.

00:00:07:26 - 00:00:11:21
Unknown
here in Kitchener, Ontario. I'm here with Sean Catherwood,

00:00:11:21 - 00:00:12:02
Unknown
Brennan,

00:00:12:02 - 00:00:17:27
Unknown
Slaton and Joel Gruber, some honestly amazing innovators. I truly,

00:00:17:27 - 00:00:21:17
Unknown
and really cool people that I'm really excited to talk with today.

00:00:21:17 - 00:00:24:04
Unknown
you guys gave a much better introduction than I will,

00:00:24:04 - 00:00:27:10
Unknown
love for you guys to just let everyone know who you are, what you're doing.

00:00:27:10 - 00:00:44:21
Unknown
Sean, let's start with you. Sure. So, yeah. My name is Sean Catherine. I'm from Saskatchewan, Canada, where I own and operate the family green farm there as well. my day job is working for PepsiCo as the Canada Regina Engagement Lead, where I basically help develop, facilitate and execute on regenerative agriculture.

00:00:44:27 - 00:01:09:23
Unknown
Farmer incentive programs, that are tied to commodities that PepsiCo has an interest in. Go. And I'm Brennan Schlozman. I'm the lead scientist for the perennial legume program at the latest to insulin in Kansas, where we are, our institution focuses on developing perennial row cropping systems, both making perennial grains and perennial cover crops for, use with annual grain crops.

00:01:09:25 - 00:01:33:07
Unknown
And I'm Joel Groover, and I'm a professor at Western Illinois University. Teach soil science and conservation classes and do organic grain research, including some some work on solar corridors, which are kind of a variation on bio strips that are being used here by Ontario farmers. Very cool, and I hope you have the opportunity to talk about that later.

00:01:33:09 - 00:01:42:03
Unknown
I want to I it's so interesting each of you bring such a unique perspective within the realm of like sustainable agriculture, from soil health,

00:01:42:03 - 00:01:58:01
Unknown
and regenerative practices to innovative cropping systems. Are you guys able to share a little bit more about how your work contributes to the broader goal of sustainable agriculture, and what you see as the key intersection within your efforts?

00:01:58:03 - 00:02:00:23
Unknown
Anyone could go. Yeah, I'll start, I guess.

00:02:00:23 - 00:02:17:04
Unknown
so yeah, I guess within the PepsiCo side of things, of course, there's a big movement right now within supply sheds for these large companies like PepsiCo and Unilever and the rest that are investing into your culture. and on the surface, it looks a little bit scary for farmers, I think, which is very valid and firm itself.

00:02:17:04 - 00:02:25:05
Unknown
So I came into that skeptical. But once I got kind of integrated into this whole system, I think the general idea is, the movement is a good at,

00:02:25:05 - 00:02:39:09
Unknown
like, it's generally good. And what we're trying to do is just, I think, increase the collaboration as an industry as a whole, from food from the field to the grocery shelf or to your table, and just kind of try and share that story of sustainability all the way through that value chain.

00:02:39:11 - 00:02:54:18
Unknown
And that really is the end goal here, at least in my mind personally. And there is a very successful story for farmers to be able to share with the consumers of the world. There's a lot of dialects out there that the farmers are maybe not following more sustainable practices all the time and for,

00:02:54:18 - 00:02:55:28
Unknown
hurting the Earth in various ways.

00:02:55:28 - 00:03:01:14
Unknown
But I think the farmers can do a lot a better job sharing the story, but just have the access to,

00:03:01:14 - 00:03:15:21
Unknown
through companies like PepsiCo and whatever else I think is a success for society as a whole, to prove that farmers really are trying their best to be as sustainable as possible and being very innovative because we're forced to, due to climate changes or whatever it may be.

00:03:15:21 - 00:03:29:22
Unknown
But farmers are are forced, forced to kind of lead the role, and everyone else can kind of follow them along the journey. So absolutely. Thank you. Anyone else? I guess I would say,

00:03:29:22 - 00:03:38:06
Unknown
as somebody who focuses primarily on undergraduate education, I guess what my mission is, is to,

00:03:38:06 - 00:03:45:04
Unknown
facilitate the generational transitions that we need for sustainable agriculture.

00:03:45:05 - 00:03:54:17
Unknown
We need young people to be either transitioning back to making decisions, really being principal operators, not just heavy equipment operators.

00:03:54:17 - 00:04:26:04
Unknown
but we also need young people to play all the other roles in the supply chain. And if they can play those roles with a a broader perspective more than just the daily need to know knowledge, but rather the understanding the issues of sustainability, you know, the global and ecological types of issues, then that will help, you know, help them, particularly when they run into the more unusual, you know, the the challenges.

00:04:26:04 - 00:04:31:03
Unknown
That's when you have to make decisions that really are guided by the bigger picture.

00:04:31:03 - 00:04:42:19
Unknown
I guess the other key element, as I, I'm always thinking about how to build learning communities so we can learn from each other. And I think, you know, Innovative Farmers of Ontario is a great example. And,

00:04:42:19 - 00:04:50:23
Unknown
you know, having people with different perspectives sitting here, you know, that's all about what a, you know, learning community should be.

00:04:50:25 - 00:04:55:10
Unknown
I won't go more into that later. But, Brandon, I'd like to give you the opportunity. Sure. Yeah.

00:04:55:10 - 00:05:12:03
Unknown
the organization I work at, you know, we have the vision that sustainability, you know, we have this nature as measure sort of framework that we, we discuss. And when you look at nature, a lot of times there's perennial and diverse plant communities and a lot of our natural areas.

00:05:12:06 - 00:05:31:18
Unknown
And, and when we think about, we know where do we see perennials right now? You know, we see them in people's lawns and in ditches and in waterways and things like that, where we want to conserve soil. And so the goal of our institution is, is really to bring those sort of sustainable benefits into row crop production by putting perennials into those systems.

00:05:31:20 - 00:05:52:21
Unknown
and so that's, that's sort of the vision with any new technology. So the new crops that we're developing, you know, they have to be adopted and we have to make them easy to use by farmers, something that they, you know, demonstrate that is something that is going to work for them. And, there's a lot of ongoing work that we're doing to, to make sure that that, that they're, they're ready to go and,

00:05:52:21 - 00:05:56:05
Unknown
that, that the, the growers have the support they need when they do start adopting them.

00:05:56:05 - 00:06:30:14
Unknown
So, yeah, so thank you. Is there anything else that anyone would like to add? Okay. I'd like to dive in kind of the climate change side of things. So obviously climate change poses significant challenges not only to agriculture but to sustainable agriculture as well. Our feet. Are each of you able to discuss any specific challenges related to climate change that you face in your work, and the innovative solutions that you're working at your, you've implemented or proposed?

00:06:30:16 - 00:06:39:17
Unknown
so, yeah, I just put my farmer cap on. I feel like, I mean, I've, I've been farming for only five years now, a pretty short career. But in that time, I just there's been crazy swings,

00:06:39:17 - 00:06:57:24
Unknown
that the environment has thrown at us. You could have a drought to start out the spring. You don't see rain for 50 days, and then all of a sudden it starts flooding the next month after there's like, there's no in between, like one extreme to the other and just talking with the older generations that have been around for for a lot of years, it seems like they've noticed two in the recent decade or so.

00:06:57:24 - 00:07:05:06
Unknown
Things fluctuate more extremely in terms of the weather, where we're at, and that's something that we've really struggled with on our farm.

00:07:05:06 - 00:07:16:16
Unknown
and that's where this all started with us, is how do we build our soil health so that we can actually take in water and keep it and conserve it and keep it where it should be, and not just run off off the surface or for when it is dry.

00:07:16:16 - 00:07:35:02
Unknown
And then the soil can actually act as a sponge and provide moisture to your crops. So it's kind of where it all started for us. so it's definitely something that even hearing that from, like my dad, who's been around for, for such a long time, and my grandparents to hear them say that they've noticed a change in the last decade or so, it's really makes it more real.

00:07:35:02 - 00:07:38:24
Unknown
I guess. It, certainly is a thing that we're facing right now. Now,

00:07:38:24 - 00:07:40:27
Unknown
the solutions side of things, whether through,

00:07:40:27 - 00:07:47:19
Unknown
Pepsi or as a farmer, are there certain, solutions that you're attempting to implement or propose that you find is helping,

00:07:47:19 - 00:07:54:04
Unknown
with climate mitigation within these, you know, extreme scenarios? Yeah. For sure. It's hard to cherry pick just 1 or 2, right.

00:07:54:07 - 00:08:04:26
Unknown
practices because, like, pretty much every speaker said on this conference this week was it's a systems approach. And it's for me, it really is shifting your mind away from that classic rural crop, conventional type thinking,

00:08:04:26 - 00:08:09:06
Unknown
of putting your seed in the ground, putting a bunch of fertilizer with it. You kind of ignore the soil.

00:08:09:06 - 00:08:12:03
Unknown
and what it can actually offer is just the substrate to grow a crop.

00:08:12:06 - 00:08:32:19
Unknown
Got to get out of that frame of mind and actually build the soil, because the soil can actually function and provide for crop the way it's naturally intended to. So things like perennial cropping really intrigues me. because that's a perfect example of using nature on your side because, yeah, like you like the natural ecosystem where we are, it's native grassland that's perennials.

00:08:32:19 - 00:08:36:04
Unknown
And they're surviving. Well, right. Even with these fluctuations,

00:08:36:04 - 00:08:47:21
Unknown
and our annual crops are struggling with them. So it's like there's something there. How can we emulate nature a little bit better at the end of the day, that's what we're trying to do on our farm is mimic nature as much as humanly possible, in an agriculture setting, which is tough to do.

00:08:47:21 - 00:08:54:24
Unknown
But that's what we're trying to do. Brian, are you able to speak to these challenges? Well, yeah,

00:08:54:24 - 00:09:03:13
Unknown
I think the hard part is a lot of the challenges of climate change. Some we have ideas, some we don't. And I liked what George said and some of the most important things,

00:09:03:13 - 00:09:08:19
Unknown
all of us, you know, farmers, researchers, we have to be open and ready to change.

00:09:08:19 - 00:09:15:27
Unknown
You know, we we need to be able to change with it as it's happening. And I think that's a a mindset that we all have to adopt.

00:09:15:27 - 00:09:21:12
Unknown
you know, the land suits our work is is working in perennials. And we think about the grasslands that,

00:09:21:12 - 00:09:24:14
Unknown
were in the corn belt in other places before,

00:09:24:14 - 00:09:26:17
Unknown
we introduced agriculture there.

00:09:26:20 - 00:09:49:24
Unknown
You know, those policy soils, they were built by 10,000 years of perennial grass species putting, putting carbon in the ground. And so in a lot of ways, we hope that by mimicking that, we'll we'll start this process of regeneration and hopefully a little bit of climate mitigation. But, so it's a hard it's a hard world. It's hard to be able to say, you know what, one thing is going to kind of solve a problem.

00:09:49:24 - 00:10:03:24
Unknown
It's it's going to be a lot of changes or a lot of a lot of efforts of a lot of people to make it happen. So awesome. So. Well, I would echo what some would say the extreme weather has,

00:10:03:24 - 00:10:14:16
Unknown
made things definitely an adventure the last decade. And, you know, it's it's hard to say whether the,

00:10:14:16 - 00:10:22:08
Unknown
the, the weather was more stable before you, you know, you are at the helm making the decisions.

00:10:22:08 - 00:10:32:16
Unknown
But certainly we are dealing with a lot of extreme conditions where multi inch rain events are occurring multiple times during the season. And my location in Illinois,

00:10:32:16 - 00:10:44:04
Unknown
you know, according to the, the climate records, those types of events are supposed to happen, you know, once or twice a decade rather than, you know, multiple times during a season.

00:10:44:07 - 00:10:45:07
Unknown
And,

00:10:45:07 - 00:11:17:24
Unknown
so, you know, it's hard to figure out, well, what's what's the right strategy. You know, sometimes the simplest solution is an engineering solution. So in Illinois, we do lots of tiling and ditches to move water away. But that adds to, other problems, water flow problems. So we, you know, we need to find the right integration of strategies where engineering is still playing a role, but it's integrated with ecology, maybe integrated with,

00:11:17:24 - 00:11:21:02
Unknown
you know, more, more,

00:11:21:02 - 00:11:33:00
Unknown
innovative cropping systems where we have plants that are more tolerant of, you know, some of these extreme conditions and, you know, that are part of the system.

00:11:33:03 - 00:11:57:01
Unknown
and I guess, you know, as, as an educator, I, I think about the fact that, you know, some of our students come in highly skeptical that these things are happening. So I have to think about why they have those perspectives and respect where they're coming from. And, I also, you know, need to try and,

00:11:57:01 - 00:11:59:00
Unknown
make sure that I'm up to speed,

00:11:59:00 - 00:12:09:12
Unknown
you know, on the developing complex science, a term that I use in my one of the classes I'm teaching right now is the concept of a macro scope.

00:12:09:15 - 00:12:25:21
Unknown
We all know what a microscope is that lets us zoom in on something that's too small to see a microscope. It's not a device, but it's a strategy for how to see things that are too big or too complex to understand. Without. It could be taking the bird's eye view,

00:12:25:21 - 00:12:29:14
Unknown
looking down from above, or using a computer model.

00:12:29:17 - 00:13:01:02
Unknown
but I feel fundamentally my role as an educator is to be a microscope, to take things that are too big or complex and not not lose the, you know, the complexity. but help, help the complexity be understood and so provide that field of view. I like to dive into your work a little bit further. I'm curious, especially on the bio strip and the precision tillage practices that you've been such a huge part in.

00:13:01:04 - 00:13:08:00
Unknown
are you able to share any breakthrough moments within your research or your education, that you found really sparked

00:13:08:00 - 00:13:21:25
Unknown
moments for the new students? Well, I guess, you know, the fundamental challenge for making cover crops actually contribute to,

00:13:21:25 - 00:13:30:04
Unknown
you know, whether it be water quality or soil health is they just tend to be planted too late and killed too early.

00:13:30:09 - 00:13:34:24
Unknown
So we need to have find ways to let them grow longer. And

00:13:34:24 - 00:14:01:23
Unknown
so that's one of the reasons why I became interested in the solar corridor concept, which is a variation on bio strips where we actually let the we move apart some of the corn rows and doesn't have to be done just with corn, but that, you know, it's generally you're going to find a crop that is very responsive to having more, more light, more air movement to, you know, to fit into a solar corridor system.

00:14:01:25 - 00:14:16:27
Unknown
And then you can grow these cover crops in between and have essentially a full growing season to grow the cover crop biomass and the the bio strip system here in Ontario, they are following wheat. So,

00:14:16:27 - 00:14:28:12
Unknown
you know that you know, that I think is another key part of it. They they are growing something that could be a cover crop, wheat or another small grain, but they are taking it all the way to harvest.

00:14:28:12 - 00:14:57:19
Unknown
So I think they're capturing even more benefits that if they had used it as a cover crop of wheat, they're capturing the economic value and letting the roots grow much bigger and doing more with that species. And then, you know, on top of that, the direct benefits from the wheat. They have the indirect where they have this window of opportunity to grow more cover crops, but they are figuring out how to do it with more precision.

00:14:57:19 - 00:15:25:05
Unknown
And, you know, using precision ag technologies. My, my students like to hear about innovative technologies. And when you can integrate something that they might think of as old school with new technologies, then it's particularly appealing to students. So, you know, it's it can't just be something that is exciting and sounds new. It has to work. And I think it was impressive in the session.

00:15:25:05 - 00:15:46:17
Unknown
I was just in there, you know, I was glad to see there were at least ten hands of people in there who were doing bio strips, and they were all doing it in fairly similar ways. So it it showed me there was, you know, there was a system that has been fine tuned and it's working across different, different farms.

00:15:46:25 - 00:16:04:04
Unknown
That was not a surprise for you today to see that many heads up. Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I was I was surprised I if there were ten people in that room there many more people out there, I would think across the farms of Ontario and

00:16:04:04 - 00:16:17:07
Unknown
or it could mean that, you know, this organization is a real magnet for bringing together the innovators and that the, the ten most experienced people with bio strips in Ontario were in that room.

00:16:17:09 - 00:16:28:28
Unknown
Could be could be. That's it. Right. But that's great. I mean, how you how you bring together the innovators so they learn from each other. That's that's what a good organization does. And,

00:16:28:28 - 00:16:31:05
Unknown
you know, I have the impression that,

00:16:31:05 - 00:16:34:03
Unknown
that this organization and by the farmers of,

00:16:34:03 - 00:16:43:04
Unknown
Ontario and other organizations that I've been involved with, like practical farmers of Iowa, they, they've broadened the tent.

00:16:43:09 - 00:16:46:09
Unknown
They don't just focus on organic core.

00:16:46:09 - 00:16:55:21
Unknown
no. Till they, they really focus on all the different ways that farmers can test things on their farms and figure out solutions.

00:16:55:21 - 00:17:24:09
Unknown
so I, you know, I'm always impressed when I witness how organizations, you know, broaden the tent to get more people involved. I think what makes the events of the IPO so interesting is you really do have that divide between, like, the small AI innovation and the large AI innovation, where you, you, you, you know, you have those individuals such as people like Hagerty Farms, Chuck Barr said, who's just, you know, doing some incredible, you know, big AI innovation, robotics work.

00:17:24:09 - 00:17:33:21
Unknown
And then you have you the small AI innovation, but it's something that is much more accessible and and approachable and something that, you know, can be explored further without needing,

00:17:33:21 - 00:17:34:29
Unknown
an engineering degree.

00:17:34:29 - 00:17:45:20
Unknown
and I think balancing both is what makes events like these so cool. And being able to bring individual individuals such as yourselves with such diverse backgrounds.

00:17:45:20 - 00:17:52:29
Unknown
But really an incredible intersection and all the work that you're doing together and being able to, table here and talk.

00:17:52:29 - 00:18:02:29
Unknown
Brandon, I'd like to pivot over to you quickly. Your work at the Land Institute on Perennial Crops represents, like, this really radical shift in agricultural thinking.

00:18:02:29 - 00:18:22:24
Unknown
which I, I think it's so cool. I've talked about it all day, but I need to narrow in on some key insights or developments that you, within your work, where, are there any that you believe hold specific promise or areas that really excite you?

00:18:22:26 - 00:18:39:27
Unknown
Well, there's a lot of exciting stuff happening the last two, and the work, has multiple opportunities and directions where to get where it could go. So we have things like, kernza. The perennial grain crop that's being domesticated. And there are some farmers,

00:18:39:27 - 00:18:42:18
Unknown
across the US and in other places that are starting to grow it.

00:18:42:20 - 00:19:02:14
Unknown
And Kernza represents the sort of innovation that has a lot of thresholds. It has to meet. We have to build, you know, the the crop itself through breeding, the agronomic practices to go with it. And then, you know, some of this cultural work at the end of it, which is introducing it to consumers doing consumer education, creating markets for it, building all the infrastructure for it.

00:19:02:14 - 00:19:09:10
Unknown
So it's a long term innovation that could, could be, could be great to have a brand new cereal grain crop someday.

00:19:09:10 - 00:19:28:08
Unknown
but there's a lot there's a lot that has to happen in the meantime. in addition to this sort of domestication pathway, we're doing wide hybridization research, which is crossing sort of regular bread, wheat with other perennial grasses to try to create something that is a real perennial wheat crop that could utilize existing infrastructure programs,

00:19:28:08 - 00:19:31:08
Unknown
markets like, like the PepsiCo market or other bigger markets.

00:19:31:08 - 00:19:34:11
Unknown
And it could fit right in there kind of immediately. So,

00:19:34:11 - 00:19:49:08
Unknown
those may be off or some other sort of near term past to finalization that don't necessarily require changing all of the sort of cultural identity of, of a building a whole new culture around a crop. And then I think the perennial ground cover work, perennial cover crop work, I've described,

00:19:49:08 - 00:19:52:29
Unknown
as an innovation that's maybe a little bit more accessible right now,

00:19:52:29 - 00:19:55:25
Unknown
to, to, to a broader range of people.

00:19:55:28 - 00:20:05:08
Unknown
we envision it fitting into corn and soybean rotations, but but also, you know, working with, with Milo or other other row crops. And that's something that,

00:20:05:08 - 00:20:21:21
Unknown
well, you need to develop the crop, perhaps. And some of the economic practices, you don't have to come, and develop, you know, the cuisine and the marketplace for it. They still are using the grains, still have their own marketplace, and they still have the existing infrastructure.

00:20:21:24 - 00:20:28:12
Unknown
now, does that make it work, makes it so accessible, or are there other reasons? I think it makes it accessible in terms of like,

00:20:28:12 - 00:20:31:06
Unknown
scalability with within a certain framework of time,

00:20:31:06 - 00:20:40:26
Unknown
things like kernza, you know, most of us can only think ten, maybe 15 years in the future, but you can imagine, you know, 304 hundred years in the future.

00:20:40:26 - 00:20:54:19
Unknown
It's it's, I think, very possible that things like Kernza could have higher yields than any of the other gains we have right now with the right sort of focus on breeding and ergonomic practices and effort, devoted to it.

00:20:54:19 - 00:21:14:04
Unknown
but those are long term sort of trajectories. And the perennial cover crop work is something that, with the right investment, could, could, ideally contribute positively to a lot of the dire problems we have right now in terms of, you know, hundreds of millions of acres of, of crop ground that are still, you know, not using cover crops, not using,

00:21:14:04 - 00:21:17:01
Unknown
a lot of these other practices.

00:21:17:03 - 00:21:19:23
Unknown
you know, by creating something that's easy and simple to use,

00:21:19:23 - 00:21:34:10
Unknown
we would perhaps make that conservation a little more accessible. So now I don't want to get too dramatic by any means, but you use the word dire, and I'm just curious if you could speak to that further. Well, we talked about climate change, and I think climate change is a big risk.

00:21:34:10 - 00:21:34:27
Unknown
But,

00:21:34:27 - 00:21:55:10
Unknown
if we look at soil loss, we've had pretty bad erosion all throughout North America over the last hundred years. And it's something that should be addressed. And along with the soil loss, you know, we've had a lot of loading in nitrogen runoff. And when we think of things in the US anyway, as like the Gulf of Mexico in the dead zone, those are all things that agriculture has contributed to.

00:21:55:12 - 00:22:06:22
Unknown
And, you know, we have as much of a climate change problem. We have sort of nitrogen and phosphorus cycle problems and things like that, too, addressed also. And,

00:22:06:22 - 00:22:08:15
Unknown
I think there's limited amounts of time.

00:22:08:15 - 00:22:14:26
Unknown
I have a 40 acres in Kansas that I farm that, has been a no till for like the last 15 years.

00:22:14:28 - 00:22:35:16
Unknown
but it's it's in a place where we have pretty shallow, sandy soils until we have, you know, thin layers of topsoil 4 or 5in. And those are critical to really holding. That's all your water capacity, nutrient capacity holding and and a few tillage events. You'll you can lose all your topsoil with especially with these, you know, large, heavy multi-year rainfall events.

00:22:35:16 - 00:22:54:22
Unknown
And we're seeing it right now in that area in terms of land prices. So stuff that has been in no till longer that or that farmers in the region understand and know has good topsoil left. They're, they're they're priced, you know, sometimes multiple times higher per acre than some of those more degraded pieces of ground. And that's real.

00:22:54:22 - 00:23:14:10
Unknown
And there's farmers in those regions that are young that want to farm someday, too. And, once it once it's gone, it's gone. It's a lot of work to, to ever imagine how to bring it back. So as you mentioned, 10,000 years to get it to where it is today and within 100 years, completely like we're mining those systems dry.

00:23:14:11 - 00:23:15:04
Unknown
Yeah.

00:23:15:29 - 00:23:41:12
Unknown
So, Sean, as a proponent of soil health and its impact on overall farm resilience, what has been one of the your more significant findings regarding the use of oats in sustainable farming systems? So for us, again, I'm going to get quite granular in the context of where we farm course. So with oats in our areas we're very dry and we have heavy clay soils.

00:23:41:15 - 00:23:58:22
Unknown
the structure of the soils has gone to the point where you kind of need a shovel on the ground in some cases, because it's so hard. And the structure and the irrigation just gone. And we grow a lot of those crops in rotation as well, which is very low residue crop. And then we start getting issues with wind erosion and losing the soil and water erosion.

00:23:58:24 - 00:24:16:13
Unknown
And like, Brandon mentioned the Rashi losing our soil. And that was a real reality for a while and for a long time. And then we brought oats into rotation because of the lack of it initially, because of the high residue potential that that crop brings. So I know in some areas where it's more wet, that's actually an issue.

00:24:16:13 - 00:24:23:10
Unknown
But for us it's a positive. And having that thick straw on top acted as mulch catches more snow in the winter for us.

00:24:23:10 - 00:24:33:28
Unknown
which brings more water into the system and just kind of creates more of a human environment, a spring time to get the new seedlings up through that stubble. So it's just as a no till crop.

00:24:33:28 - 00:24:35:01
Unknown
It made a lot of sense for us.

00:24:35:01 - 00:24:39:29
Unknown
that's where it all started. But since then it's progressed even more. Everything else I talked about today with,

00:24:39:29 - 00:24:48:04
Unknown
the flexibility of the maturity of an old crop being as short as it is, and we don't grow a lot of winter crops in my neck of the woods because the winters are pretty severe.

00:24:48:07 - 00:24:59:07
Unknown
That stuff doesn't spread very well. So we have to do a little creative with spring crops and the shorter the spring crop. The opportunity we have for cover crops and it's just been that alone, right? There has been a huge,

00:24:59:07 - 00:25:06:12
Unknown
proponent to accelerating our goals, to build the resiliency of, of our soil. and it's has been quite,

00:25:06:12 - 00:25:09:20
Unknown
if I was to rank it in terms of the favorite crops in our,

00:25:09:20 - 00:25:12:15
Unknown
farm would be number one, but not for an economic reason.

00:25:12:15 - 00:25:38:09
Unknown
Just because I truly believe it's been the crop that's really taken us to the next step, just because of everything that allows us to do that makes sense. And that's all it does. Sorry. Sorry about that. Excellent. Okay. I want to bring it back. I want to bring everyone back together for a second. So I think one of the hurdles in shifting towards more sustainable practices is one like improving their economic viability.

00:25:38:12 - 00:25:43:07
Unknown
and I feel like for farmers, that's usually what's at the forefront

00:25:43:07 - 00:25:47:08
Unknown
of their mind. I wonder if you guys can speak to the evidence or experience,

00:25:47:08 - 00:25:55:17
Unknown
demonstrated experience with the economic benefits of sustainable agri, at least through each of the different lenses that you guys provide.

00:25:55:20 - 00:25:56:02
Unknown
Well,

00:25:56:02 - 00:25:58:01
Unknown
we I think

00:25:58:01 - 00:26:17:10
Unknown
historically within my school of agriculture, we have had ag con professors that teach the ag business or farm management type classes, and there has not probably been enough integration of these concepts across multiple classes. But,

00:26:17:10 - 00:26:22:06
Unknown
that's something that I have been trying to do, but I think I'm in the early stages of that.

00:26:22:06 - 00:26:22:26
Unknown
But,

00:26:22:26 - 00:26:53:15
Unknown
a program that John and I were just talking about a little while ago, Precision Conservation Management, that's a program brought by the Illinois Corn Growers to Illinois. And now it's spreading more broadly. But it's all about the economics of conservation, helping farmers to understand their data, but then also to be able to benchmark and look at what other farms are doing in terms of how conservation is impacting their bottom line.

00:26:53:17 - 00:27:13:21
Unknown
those, those types of data sets are very useful for teaching purposes. So I'm always trying to find that that information to show in classes. And I'm not teaching ag kind of classes, but I, you know, I think if I'm going to teach a class about sustainable agriculture, I need to have an economic piece of the story. And,

00:27:13:21 - 00:27:16:08
Unknown
the research that I'm doing, I,

00:27:16:08 - 00:27:24:27
Unknown
right now, you know, have kind of one of the new developments is I'm looking at whole year,

00:27:24:27 - 00:27:26:15
Unknown
cover crop fallow systems.

00:27:26:15 - 00:27:50:03
Unknown
So regenerative year, soil building for a whole year without a grain crop. And that cannot be just an agronomic discussion. That has to be an economic discussion. And so I've been trying to use enterprise budgets to look at just how much do I have to benefit during the grain years for it to pay for that soil building year.

00:27:50:06 - 00:27:55:04
Unknown
And then you get to look at, yeah, just to build off that. Actually couldn't agree more with Joel.

00:27:55:04 - 00:28:07:27
Unknown
there could be more work done on actually, like it's this is on farm work. I think that it would have to be to understand the ROI of some of these practices. So we all know why we're doing them. We have our own reasons for sustainability reasons or whatever soil health reasons.

00:28:08:04 - 00:28:16:25
Unknown
But the economics do have to make sense at the end of the day. But farming is a business. The business needs to be profitable. Absolutely. And, you know, like in the back of our mind,

00:28:16:25 - 00:28:36:29
Unknown
us innovators that are actually doing this stuff, we know that there's a return there. We just maybe don't know what it is. So that's something I've had an interest in recently too, is I'm going to set up trials on my own farm to actually understand and take things to yield over the course of several years and have this, like, long term study to look at the ROI of some of these practices, like taking a grain crop out of production

00:28:36:29 - 00:28:40:03
Unknown
for a year and growing a cover crop. That's a perfect example at

00:28:40:03 - 00:28:52:07
Unknown
start a farm free. So to do that, because it's you're taking all your revenue off a piece of land and that that's scary. That's a big deal. And with margins as thin as they are at times, like it's almost a no go for a lot of guys, but there's got to be a way to make that work.

00:28:52:07 - 00:28:59:03
Unknown
And how can we and we prove that I think it can be proved. So that's a big piece of the puzzle. And then of course, on the,

00:28:59:03 - 00:29:09:00
Unknown
supply chain programs that are out there now that you can couple with government programs and different regulations coming down, I think the idea with these is really is a cost share incentive.

00:29:09:02 - 00:29:22:00
Unknown
because there is those farmers that maybe are sitting on the fence right now, they want to dip their whole toe into this regenerative agriculture stuff. Going to be a little bit hesitant because there is upfront costs, I think cover crop seeds, expensive equipment,

00:29:22:00 - 00:29:27:07
Unknown
changes you have to make to your ears, ears and whatnot to be able to do some of the things you want to do.

00:29:27:09 - 00:29:31:14
Unknown
There's a lot of upfront investment, and then I feel like that will pay for itself over time.

00:29:31:14 - 00:29:40:13
Unknown
but we at PepsiCo, we view that hopefully these programs can at least help a few more guys, maybe take that jump into the deep end, so to speak. I say helps with a few costs here and there,

00:29:40:13 - 00:29:42:25
Unknown
to do and get to the goals that they want to accomplish.

00:29:42:25 - 00:29:47:02
Unknown
So that's really where review us getting involved and that's what we try and promote.

00:29:47:02 - 00:30:04:07
Unknown
just to kind of aid on, on the economic side of things because, yeah, it can be a large investment at the start for sure. Absolutely. Brendan. Yeah, I've been trying to think about how to answer this question. So, you know, the one grain crop that's sort of being grown from that.

00:30:04:07 - 00:30:06:26
Unknown
The last who developed Kernza at the moment,

00:30:06:26 - 00:30:32:21
Unknown
it's new. And so, you know, the the potential profitability is, is very much tied to that growers ability to access a market that desires that specialty premium crop. And, I think the suit has some important responsibility and has worked hard to have a they have a licensing program so that, you know, before a grower just randomly decides they're going to grow Kernza they talk with someone, they make sure that they have access to a marketplace.

00:30:32:21 - 00:30:42:21
Unknown
They, they, provide access to seed. So for some new technologies like like that, I think that's, that's really important to have other people that are there,

00:30:42:21 - 00:31:01:18
Unknown
helping steward, steward that technology forward. and then I think for the perennial cover crop work, we're thinking about it from a different angle. You know, the main goal is to make the technology allow someone to grow similar or equivalent yields, to the current cash crop that they have.

00:31:01:21 - 00:31:24:07
Unknown
with a pretty minimal investment in terms of having to change equipment or change practices. We want them to farm fast with the, with the with what they have access to right now. and so the potential additional profitability might, might not be there, but it's a way to put conservation in the system and hopefully would qualify for some of these programs in the future without without changing a lot of things.

00:31:24:09 - 00:31:47:19
Unknown
And like the I feel like the challenges are just vast and varied and there's so many different, problems that farmers can run into when they're trying out the fundamental system change. For the first time, I, I'm curious about the importance of cross disciplinary collaboration, especially with the three of you here.

00:31:47:19 - 00:31:48:12
Unknown
the table,

00:31:48:12 - 00:31:56:25
Unknown
do you see or are you able to give an example where such collaboration I really had is central impact, either on yourselves or with farmers that you've worked with?

00:31:57:07 - 00:32:20:29
Unknown
I guess I would just say, I hope that I leave here today knowing that I have a little wider network. Identify what a contact Brandon or Sean that you know, know how to contact them and know they will, you know, probably be a little more receptive to an email because we've had this conversation. I had people speak to classes on a regular basis.

00:32:20:29 - 00:32:31:11
Unknown
And, you know, it's not it is not as simple as well. You just don't have to prepare a lecture that day. You have a guest speaker. There's a lot of legwork to make it really

00:32:31:11 - 00:32:35:19
Unknown
work. Well. And so, you know, I have to,

00:32:35:19 - 00:32:39:21
Unknown
normally have a student figure out how to introduce that person.

00:32:39:21 - 00:32:41:25
Unknown
And then I have to write a set of questions afterwards.

00:32:41:25 - 00:32:46:24
Unknown
But I guess the more important thing is just to understand,

00:32:46:24 - 00:33:14:11
Unknown
how, a learning community, is, is necessary to solve what I think sociologists call wicked problems. Problems that are really complex and just are not easy. You know, the low hanging fruit is just that's different than the types of bigger climate change or dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico.

00:33:14:11 - 00:33:25:29
Unknown
Problems and there it cannot be solved with our standard engineering solutions. We need people to bring different perspectives.

00:33:25:29 - 00:33:44:21
Unknown
so yeah, I think, just right here, we have some some different angles that right now, maybe we don't know how they should intersect, but we are. But the opportunity, we're geographically intersecting at this moment, and we need to ponder what other ways we can intersect a little bit.

00:33:44:27 - 00:34:04:02
Unknown
the next podcast. Brandon, anything you'd like that? Well, I think I think the group is, is pretty interesting. And I'm, I'm involved in some academic research that spans disciplines. But I think Charles mention of this sort of macro scope idea, I think the three of us represent sort of an academic nonprofit and,

00:34:04:02 - 00:34:14:27
Unknown
larger for profit enterprise and, and at a microscope level, you know, we have to figure out how to work together across those different sort of organizational types towards similar goals.

00:34:14:27 - 00:34:37:01
Unknown
And so, you know, maybe when we think about transdisciplinary, this is this is the future that needs to happen, is figuring out how people that are operating at different scales can work together to bring, you know, the the innovations that are part of their individual learning communities to to the table. collectively, at broad scales. So pretty neat group here.

00:34:37:03 - 00:34:45:11
Unknown
I couldn't agree more, Sean. Yeah. With all that, I think just to build off a little bit, there's definitely been in the past the disconnect in the food system,

00:34:45:11 - 00:34:59:02
Unknown
at all levels. And there just always has been because it's a complex system and it's complex issues like feeding the world isn't easy. Exactly. And it's just like the disconnect between it's famous from consumer to farmer that's always existed.

00:34:59:04 - 00:35:16:04
Unknown
consumers don't exactly understand what's actually happening on farms. Farms might struggle a little bit to understand why consumers are worried about this and that. So there's always been that disconnect. But I feel like right now we're on the leading edge of this movement, if you want to call it, so to speak, with these companies like PepsiCo and everyone else getting involved, it kind of makes sense at the start.

00:35:16:04 - 00:35:32:00
Unknown
But it's like sharing that story and bridging it all together, because there's no one group that's going to solve these complex issues. It can't all be on the farmers, even though the ones on the ground doing these practices, throwing down regulations at farmers be like, hey, you got to reduce fertilizer by this and this and this, or else we're all in trouble.

00:35:32:00 - 00:35:47:18
Unknown
And it's like all of a sudden all the pressure is on the farmer. That's not fair. It really has to be a team effort by all these different disciplines like are sitting on, here today to help each other out and right from the farmer all the way through the supply chain, including PepsiCo, including the retailers, including the government.

00:35:47:20 - 00:36:04:12
Unknown
And then somehow we all have to collaborate and understand how to solve these complex issues, which is a big ask, but I think it's a necessity. I could not agree more. Is there anything else you guys would like to add? About the three of you have been so generous with your time.

00:36:04:12 - 00:36:06:28
Unknown
I don't want to keep you much longer, especially with,

00:36:06:28 - 00:36:12:07
Unknown
with lunch coming up or I think we are in lunch right now, which is even scarier.

00:36:12:09 - 00:36:30:17
Unknown
I would like to give each of you the opportunity to share something that's exciting in your life right now. A personal value you'd like to share with something that you're working on, that you love the world to know about? John, would you like to start? Oh, wow. Well, I, I mean, I think this,

00:36:30:17 - 00:36:36:22
Unknown
this idea of taking a whole year out of grain production is one of the most,

00:36:36:22 - 00:36:42:10
Unknown
exciting things that I've gotten involved with in my, you know, research career.

00:36:42:12 - 00:37:08:26
Unknown
And, I mean, it came up, came about because of crop failures. And I think the, the key thing for all of us is to figure out how to, you know, turn disasters into learning experiences and figure out how there's something to be benefited from that disaster. And so extreme weather creates disasters. That's why we had years where we didn't harvest a crop.

00:37:08:26 - 00:37:38:10
Unknown
And so then we planted cover crops. And the next season we had better crops, and we realized that we would have had even better crops if we had been more strategic about planted the right cover crops that, you know, I hear in Ontario, they talk about tactical cover crops. So if we had been more tactical, both during the disaster year and during the the following year, so that we had the most responsive,

00:37:38:10 - 00:37:40:21
Unknown
type of cropping system to that,

00:37:40:21 - 00:37:42:13
Unknown
soil building year, then,

00:37:42:13 - 00:37:47:07
Unknown
you know, then we would have benefited even more so that that's one of the things I'm most excited about.

00:37:47:07 - 00:37:47:29
Unknown
I,

00:37:47:29 - 00:38:04:16
Unknown
just two years into doing this type of research and I, you know, I think maybe we'll have other types of disasters in the future that hopefully we can be learning from. But this this is where we're at right now, trying to understand how to make the most of a regenerative view. Amazing. Well, excited to hear more about that in the future.

00:38:04:29 - 00:38:12:21
Unknown
Brenda. yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm thinking a lot about this has been a it's been a great conference and,

00:38:12:21 - 00:38:15:22
Unknown
it's really fun to see how Tori and and,

00:38:15:22 - 00:38:22:06
Unknown
and, you know, everyone's brought these innovative farmers together. A lot of times, people that are studying agriculture,

00:38:22:06 - 00:38:24:29
Unknown
it's a lot of times a farmer that's the innovator.

00:38:24:29 - 00:38:47:09
Unknown
And we're trying to understand, well, why did that work or why didn't that work? And, and the innovation is, is really spawned by a lot of people trying stuff in many, many different places or, on their own farm. And so it's great when there's organizations and conferences like this to bring them all together. So excited to be here to learn and learn about what's happening here myself.

00:38:47:11 - 00:38:57:22
Unknown
And is there anything you want to share with your land Institute that you're excited about, that you want the world to know? I want them to know the latitude exists. Last year,

00:38:57:22 - 00:38:59:07
Unknown
a really special place.

00:38:59:07 - 00:39:22:28
Unknown
there are so many species in the world that could be used in agriculture to accomplish great things. And the last who kind of represents a place that's, over the last 50 years had the philanthropic funding and capacity to think about alternative crops and how they could enter into the agricultural systems to to address some of the problems we've talked about today.

00:39:22:28 - 00:39:23:27
Unknown
So,

00:39:23:27 - 00:39:27:05
Unknown
there's huge opportunities. There's thousands of species in the world,

00:39:27:05 - 00:39:40:09
Unknown
that with time and effort could be could be incorporated and used to accomplish great things. So it's a fun place to work. Glad to be there. Amazing. Brennan. Thank you. Sean. yeah. I guess to finish up, maybe,

00:39:40:09 - 00:39:50:12
Unknown
I have a message to the fellow farmers out there that even though this movement I keep calling it is kind of scary to to the average farmer, these companies are trying to get involved in agriculture,

00:39:50:12 - 00:39:56:16
Unknown
by going around and asking them questions and the natural instinct to kind of dig your heel in the sand and shut the door and say, no,

00:39:56:19 - 00:40:05:24
Unknown
I don't want to deal with any of that. But in reality, this is happening. It is real. It is coming. And I think it's just better for the industry as a whole. If there's more cooperation from everyone.

00:40:05:24 - 00:40:12:16
Unknown
don't run and hide from this. It can be a very positive. And there's investment dollars out there that farms can utilize,

00:40:12:16 - 00:40:14:02
Unknown
to their benefit for.

00:40:14:02 - 00:40:19:22
Unknown
Not a lot of ask either. And I think it's just something that they don't naturally kind of want to run and hide from.

00:40:19:22 - 00:40:28:22
Unknown
farmers are independent, stubborn people. I can see that from my own self. And so I really I do understand it, but I think this can be a net benefit for the world if we just.

00:40:28:22 - 00:40:32:19
Unknown
Everyone cooperates. And it goes both ways too. And everyone needs to understand that,

00:40:32:19 - 00:40:38:12
Unknown
it does need to be a farmer first mentality. Like, Brandon mentioned, they're the ones on the ground, actually innovating,

00:40:38:12 - 00:40:44:28
Unknown
kind of figuring out what works and doesn't work. And I think just everyone else in this step on the way through needs to need to be able to cooperate with that.

00:40:44:28 - 00:41:10:17
Unknown
And again, just kind of overall collaboration. Cooperation is what's going to get us to where we want to go. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Is there anything else you guys would like to add say before we close out? but gentlemen, you guys have been so gracious with your time. Thank you so much for everyone at home. If you'd like to learn more about what each of these amazing gentlemen are doing, all that information will be in the description below.

00:41:10:23 - 00:41:13:14
Unknown
Thank you for tuning in once again. Thank you guys for being here.

00:41:13:14 - 00:41:18:02
Unknown
we have haven't another day of conference to attend, so we'll be seeing you guys soon. But,

00:41:18:02 - 00:41:19:09
Unknown
thank you guys so much. And,

00:41:19:09 - 00:41:22:14
Unknown
Yeah, let's head out. Thank you. Thank you.