Positively Leading

S3E10 - Why Every Leader Needs a Cheerleader with Jacquie Cooper

• Jenny Cole • Season 3 • Episode 10

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Join us for an inspiring chat with Jacquie Cooper, a passionate principal who went from a hesitant intern to a confident school leader. Jacquie’s story is all about empowering educators, building connections, and leading with authenticity.

In this episode  we dive into the real challenges of school leadership—balancing community expectations, managing staff, and nurturing middle leaders - and Jacquie shares her approach to professional development, ensuring educators grow in ways that align with their passions. She also highlights the power of cultural responsiveness, sharing how she weaves Noongar language and traditions into the school, creating a deep sense of belonging for students.

Mentorship is another big theme, as Jacquie reflects on how diverse perspectives have shaped her journey—and why aspiring leaders should seek support and connection along the way.

Whether you're a future leader or an experienced educator, this episode is packed with insights on leadership, community, and cultural appreciation. Tune in, subscribe, and let us know what resonates with you!

Did you know there is more? You can access every episode, show notes, links and more via my website Positively Beaming.

Jenny Cole:

Hello there, lovely listeners, welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm your host, Jenny Cole. I'm the owner and Chief Everything Officer at Positively Beaming, so excited to be joined by my next guest, Jacquie Cooper. Welcome, Jacquie.

Jacquie Cooper:

Thanks, Jenny. It's good to be here having a chat with you.

Jenny Cole:

It's always good to have a chat with you. Jacquie is the principal of the most beautiful, thriving primary school in the sand dunes north of Perth, and she's passionate about empowering people to reach their full potential, whether it's staff or students or the wider community. When she's not shaping minds and influencing the school community, you might find her breathing salty air at the beach, sharing laughs with a girlfriend or fulfilling that never-ending role of mum's taxi, and as the day winds down, she tells me that she spends it with her favourite military dramas, because when she grows up, she wants to be a Navy SEAL. Well, there you go.

Jacquie Cooper:

Absolutely. That's quite an ambition. Imagine rappelling out of a helicopter and despite the fact that I'm still too nervous to climb the ladder into our own attic. That would just be an awesome job.

Jenny Cole:

Fantastic, Jacquie. I've had my fair share of extroverts on this program and we tend to think of leaders still, even though we know the research doesn't support it, we tend to think of leaders as those loud, dominating folk, and you are a card-carrying member of the introvert society, preferring to be behind the scenes. What drew you to leadership?

Jacquie Cooper:

Well early days. So I started my teaching career before I'd graduated. We could do an internship. I was still an intern and the principal that I was working with at the time said to me oh, you're going to make a great principal. I said no thanks, never want that. And then you just kind of fall into what's kind of role.

Jacquie Cooper:

So it's more about the influence you can have and how you can make things better for people. And so that's kind of how my journey of leadership went. That I thought, oh well, if I'm the team leader, I can advocate for the stuff we want. And then, oh well, if I'm the rep on this, I could get us the other stuff. And before you know it, you're stepping into deputy jobs and then you're thinking you know what I could do some things differently and I could meet some people's needs a different way, and yeah, so that's kind of how my journey's gone. I don't think once I was a deputy, I sort of thought I want to be a principal in a certain amount of time, but was never a teacher and thought, yeah, I'm going to be a principal. That never happened.

Jenny Cole:

No, so you've been principal of several schools in different contexts and, as you said, you'd been deputies at two schools. My guess is they're not been the same. Even though the role has the same description, they're all very different. What have you noticed the difference and share with us some of the experiences you've had and what you've learned from them?

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, I think being a deputy is really hard. Being a principal is not easy all the time because you are the meat in the sandwich and you are, you know, even I've worked for amazing principals where I can be really honest with them and we can debate stuff out and have good arguments, but at the end of the day you walk out of that meeting or that conversation and you follow the company line and so you're doing that to staff and you're acting with conviction and maybe you've still got doubts about something. And then also staff are holding you to a level of accountability and they think you've got influence over staff. Perhaps you don't.

Jacquie Cooper:

Debt pity is really tough and as a debt pity it's all the expectations of staff is the biggest pull on you. And then as a principal it's the pressures and the expectations of the community and the staff and of course the system. And I think in different schools there's always really hard things to navigate but they change. So some schools have a really, I guess, litigious kind of community where they'll sue, they'll go the minister, they'll have regional office on speed dial to make complaints, so that's really hard to manage and you're always risk assessing against that.

Jacquie Cooper:

And then I've been in schools where you never see the parents. You wonder sometimes if the kid didn't come home, if they'd notice. Some days you know like there's so much going on and that's really hard because you feel like you can't get any of the good traction you need. So I think it's a hard job, no matter what school you're in and no matter what level you're at too. But yeah, it's just the different expectations I that make schools different and I think you find your groove as to what sort of works with your leadership style the best. Yeah, there are different.

Jenny Cole:

I mean, not all schools are the same and some people thrive in low-ixia schools, others are much better in single-sex schools. Whatever the case might be, there's not once you've been a deputy here, you'll be a deputy successfully everywhere, or whatever the case may be.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, and I think I say that to people too you know who are applying for jobs. Apply for the job you actually want, because you might hate that, because you don't believe in that philosophy, and if the philosophy is coming from the community, you're going to have to do that.

Jenny Cole:

Absolutely. And there are some communities where you'll just. I mean, I remember working in a school for about seven years and when I left I thought why did I go? This was just the best community. They loved me, I loved them. I went because I needed to be stretched. But there are places where you absolutely belong and others where you think I'm fine, I'm doing an okay job, but I just don't belong here the way I belonged elsewhere, or I'm not making the difference here the way I could make it elsewhere.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, that's right, they don't need you, you know, yeah, and what a different version of it.

Jenny Cole:

Yes, indeed, I was just having a conversation with someone about being a teaching deputy or having a teaching load, and we were talking about that was one of the hardest gigs in education to be a part-time teacher and a part-time leader. Yes, do you remember that? Were you a teaching deputy?

Jacquie Cooper:

Yes, yes, yes, I'm terrible with names, but a well-known author that I'm sure everyone's heard of and relate to this, but he talks about being on the dance floor and then being on the balcony and watching. You know what's going on, and I always felt like being a teaching deputy. I was in the stairwell between the dance floor and the balcony. I never actually did anything properly and I, you know, was just running from one to the other oh, I've got an art class now go teach it. Oh, back up, oh, I've got to quickly send this email.

Jacquie Cooper:

And it was manic, you know, and I had a deputy role where I taught four periods a week and that was tricky to manage. And then, due to some staffing and things, I'd have role where I taught 0.9. Wow, some staffing and things. I'd have role where I taught 0.9. And so you know it makes you quiet I found that I wasn't as open to the teacher's complaints because I thought I'm getting less dot than you. Stop complaining. I'm not going to show you how to do that again. You know it didn't make me a great leader.

Jenny Cole:

I don't think Well those conditions didn't let you.

Jacquie Cooper:

But yeah, I don't think I was a great teacher because even though I was teaching the kids and doing everything I could, I was always thinking what's that other thing I need to do? And you know so. But I think it's a necessity of lots of the systems that we're working at the moment that, particularly with teaching the way it is, I still step in and take classes as principal because sometimes you just need someone. You know like it's good to stay connected and I think it's important to do, but easier to do on your terms, than when you just have no teachers rock up and you have to get out there and do it.

Jenny Cole:

Yes, especially when you walk in with a to-do list of things that you need to do as the leader in the school and then a class needs a teacher, so that comes first and you think where do I get my stuff done? Yeah, that's right. When do you get your stuff done?

Jacquie Cooper:

I'm a bit of a I don't know. I used to call it at uni a last minute. Lucy like work well with pressure on. So I get my stuff done right before the deadline and, as Jenny would know, because she needed me to write some stuff down for today and it came through at the deadline last night. So under pressure, but it's after hours, my stuff's after hours. Occasionally you can get a chance to shut your door and I've got an amazing team, so shut the door and get some stuff done. But generally if I'm doing that, it's because it was due this morning and I think it's less about being able to prioritise and more about some stuff in our jobs you have to deal with there. And then the kid who comes up completely dysregulated. You can't say well, I just have some emails to answer, so I'll deal with you at two o'clock.

Jenny Cole:

No, you can't. It's pretty obvious already that you know not to mistake your quiet thinking approach to a lack of drive or directness. I know you and I've worked on your style before, but how do you describe your style? And then, how do you work with your leadership team so that you make the most of your style and theirs?

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, so I'm a I talk in terms of disc all the time. So I'm a C personality type and so details are important. Getting it right before you say anything's important really high standards of myself and other people, and that often looks like resting bitch face and often looks negative. I think you know, oh gosh, find something positive to say. And I've had to work hard to learn how to be more I and more D.

Jacquie Cooper:

And I worked with a great deputy who's very much a people person and I actually used to watch her and take notes about what she did and then go and practice it because I had to learn how to be less C. Small talk's not my thing, so I had to learn how to do small talk and, yeah, I used to just think what would Jen do, and then I'd try those things. So, and then you know, I worked on it and I worked on it and working out what was important to me because I needed it, and what was important to other people, and trying to keep that bridge and lots of coaching from Jen and other people who could say to me well, the D needs this from you and the S needs that from you. So trying to get better at what I can give other people and then interesting was employed for a job once because they thought I was a real people person and I thought, oh my gosh, I've faked it till I've made it really.

Jenny Cole:

I think you fake it beautifully most days because, despite you said resting bitch face, you're not a stony, faced like, you're not cold. So you've obviously worked on it, but you are much happier with the processes than, necessarily, the people.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, absolutely yeah. And you know I got really hard feedback about it and good to have someone you trust who can give you the hard feedback. But a principal I worked with once said to me Jacquie, get control of your eyebrows, they just give you away. So you know, really practical advice and working on it and I think for me it was finding the balance between being warm and friendly and happy and being authentic, because I felt like I was being, you know, not very genuine when I was being this happy person. So I've kind of had to find a balance where I can be who I am and be positive but not feel like I'm being something I'm not either.

Jenny Cole:

You're not performing, you don't want to feel like you're performing all the time. Yeah, absolutely. One of the reasons I really wanted you on this podcast was that one day we were having a conversation and you were telling me about the Aboriginal cultural framework and the culturally responsive schools and what you were doing in your school. That has you told me one or two not many Aboriginal students, but you were running this amazing program. Do you want to talk us through that, because I just think it's phenomenal.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yes, so we are working on language reclamation. So I think it's easy to have a sort of a wrap plan where you're going to do this and do that and name a building and have an acknowledgement of country. The real work's in shifting hearts and beliefs, because everyone has their belief system for a reason, and also learning about a culture, not necessarily just focusing on stuff that's happened in the past and how we can fix that. And so as a school we've been around and around with that for a little while. And then we're really blessed that a family enrolled in the school who are incredible Noongar people and they've sort of been walking the journey with us and we've meshed really well with them and just teaching us stuff and like saying, just give it a go, and it's okay if you say it wrong and it's okay if you do it wrong.

Jacquie Cooper:

And through that and through looking at how cults back after they've had to go for a while or they've been suppressed for a while, it's about language. So when we look at Ireland, they took what was known as Gaelic or Irish away. They weren't allowed to speak it. So if they took that away from the farmers, then it was easy for them to take the land off them because they couldn't negotiate, they couldn't talk about their rights and things like that. So it's a really effective way across the world that they've suppressed different things. So when we look at Noongar language, it's the same. It wasn't allowed to be spoken and you know we're seeing it pop up and everyone's doing their best to kind of get it going. But it's really sad that there's lots of Noongar people who don't know Noongar language because it wasn't allowed to be taught or spoken. So we're on a project.

Jacquie Cooper:

My deputy and I are actually going to Ireland to have a look at how they brought back Irish. They did it through curriculum, they did it through schools. Every teacher teaches it. Everyone can speak it two different levels, you know, of course and that's something that we're doing, so quite authentically, leading through language, and that means that sometimes I have to give it a go and I say things and I pronounce it wrong and I always laugh with one of the elders that we work with that I can take any Noongar word and make it sound Bogan when I talk, but you know she's beautiful and she says that's just your accent. You know no different to if you're talking French.

Jacquie Cooper:

So, yeah, I think we're really lucky in that and that they're working with us. And then I have a teacher who's really passionate. She's gone and done a Noongar language course and she's sort of promoting that and teaching kids that too. So, look, it's the most amazing journey and I could probably go on about it for hours, but it really is just leading with your whole heart, and our one goal, I guess, is to breathe some life into the Noongar culture within our school. So you know, we're not necessarily going to change the world or whatever, but in our school it's going to be a culture that exists and it sits alongside our and everything else and it's just a part of who we are and what we do.

Jenny Cole:

And have you noticed a shift in attitudes?

Jacquie Cooper:

Generally speaking, in my community we have people who don't know anything about culture because they've never experienced it, and I have some staff who experience some really negative things working in some remote places. So we've had to tread carefully and change the focus and draw parallels and just provide lots of experiences where we do good stuff. So we just went for a bush walk on the last school development day in the bush next door to school and learnt about the creeping vine that's strangling the native plants. Now, you know you could say that's sustainability focus or a science focus or whatever. Actually that was our cultural learning, that we got to look after the land and you know this is how you get rid of the plants. And here's the native fruit that's growing next to our school and we stood around and breathed in and smelt the leaves and stuff and to kind of shift people that way to go. Oh, that was a really good experience. I love smelling the trees. Oh, that's actually a part of a culture.

Jacquie Cooper:

So I think some staff still resisting a little bit because of their own experience. So it's just about slowly walking with them where they need to be and then the community are really excited because every time we do something. They say, oh, I didn't know you could do it like that, I didn't know you could. Or oh my gosh, that song we had was amazing, you know. Or that performance we had was amazing. And it's about them valuing the arts and so bringing in Noongar artists. They say, oh, wow, this is a massive arts program and it kind of comes alongside that.

Jenny Cole:

And just explain again the family that you're working with. How did it come from new family in your school to this amazing project? Talk a little bit about them and their input.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, so it's the Bracknells, Kylie and Clint Bracknell. So they came to our school we're working with another young Indigenous leader who I'd met through a basketball team and whatever else and invited him to talk to the school and they had wanted to enroll their son somewhere and he had said go and try Jacquie's school because I think they get it, there's something in the mindset they get it. And I was quite blown away because we don't have a massively outward Indigenous or at that point didn't have a massive Indigenous program or anything. And so they came and they saw the school and they were quite reserved and they enrolled their son and then it was quite rocky in the beginning, to be honest.

Jacquie Cooper:

So we, as you do when a little person comes, you know, oh, they're really unsettled, or you know something happened at home and we ask that because I don't know, maybe they had a late night, maybe they started and watched the soccer, maybe the goldfish died. You know, that's the kind of thing you ask when they're little people and because of their own life experiences, they were taken quite aback that we were accusing them of something. So it was quite hostile in a couple of conversations and we kind of had to say that's not at all where we're coming from and a beautiful teacher and a great deputy and you know myself really just taking the time to go. Wow, they seem a little bit maybe angry or upset about this. How can we approach this differently, to meet that middle ground and to think that it's probably a bit of maturity from everyone involved that not to just go? Oh God, she was so rude when I asked her. I just care about the kid you know.

Jacquie Cooper:

But to be able to have those conversations and for them to be able to say this is why we reacted like we did, and for us to go, oh, I never, like never ever, would have thought that's how it would go. It's not been my experience, so I don't know that. So you know, meeting in the middle and then just sharing and talking, and once so they didn't come to us announcing they were elders in the community or influential or anything so once we're sharing that and then getting along great, and then I'd mention it to other people and they'd say, oh, that's auntie, and you know I have to ask her if it's okay. And I thought, oh gosh, like here I am just saying, hey, can I just ask you a question about this song? Or you know, tell me if I'm doing that right, or how do I say this word. You know so.

Jacquie Cooper:

So it was quite a genuine relationship that kind of formed. And then you know, now we've got those incredible people guiding us and you know they'll come have a yarn, we'll grab a cuppa and just talk about what we're doing and where it's going, and they'll come and talk to staff and they know where the staff are at, so they're really open to that, something that might be, I guess, perceived as a bit, maybe, hostile. I mean, everyone's lovely, but you can kind of feel when people aren't really on the same page as you, or a bit hesitant. So we've worked hard to create a really trusting space and a safe place for their culture, and equally, they work really hard to provide a safe place for everyone else's beliefs, I guess.

Jenny Cole:

Phenomenal. And I actually came to your school as you were out in the sand dunes on that school development day and I turned up at the front door and there was no one around. And somebody said, oh, they're on country and I'm like where we're in the suburb, and then I realised you were just out in the bush. And then that lovely family came in with the kids and the various things and I thought, oh, this, and they felt so at home in your staff room with everybody they belonged, which was so lovely to see.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, and for us that's been key. We say we're a team at school. We always refer to our school and our community. We're all a team and so they're a part of our team, you know. So they make us better and we make them better and yeah.

Jenny Cole:

Changing subjects ever so slightly, but you're very supportive of your middle leaders, giving them both opportunities to lead but also to grow in their leadership Things like coaching and professional learning. Firstly, why do you do that?

Jacquie Cooper:

And what other ways do you grow your leaders? Big questions, Jenny. Why do I do it?

Jacquie Cooper:

Because I want people to be the best version of themselves. And there's a video on YouTube I think it was Ken Robinson's, and he talked about shining eyes and so when someone's really passionate about something, their eyes shine. When you're talking to them and has to do with their blink rate and heart rate and stuff. But when you're talking to someone and they get shining eyes about something could be outside play, could be maths, could be, you know, numero, whatever it is, they get this passion and this drive and I want them to be able to use that. And if you're working in spaces that are good for you and you feel good about, then you get more fulfillment out of your job. And I know that personally and I know that watching it through other people, so you know it doesn't mean that you can become the person in charge of numero five days a week, you know, and don't have to do anything else. But if you get a chance to do that, your whole week's better. And the more I learn about positive psychology and things like that, I learn that it's those things that drive you to be the best person you can be. And so if I don't give my middle leaders those opportunities, I'm robbing them of feeling connected to their work and feeling like they're making a difference and they're fulfilled in what they're doing.

Jacquie Cooper:

And I think from a corporate strategy point of view, if you want to retain people not only in the school but in our system, you've got to let them be authentically involved in the stuff that is important to them.

Jacquie Cooper:

And along with all of that comes the stuff they have to do that isn't so important to them. And I guess that's where the PL and the coaching and the mentoring comes in, because you're really passionate about numero but sally over there could not give too about it. How we're going to get her on board and you still have to write a plan for it, even if you're not what that kind of stuff. We did a whole series of learning. We did the school-based future leaders program, so people have to apply to be a part of that. We're quite open about who was like a future school by you know like level leader and who was like a future school you know like level leader and who was someone who was a leader because they'd either been there a long time or their personality and didn't particularly have aspirations to be deputy principal or whatever, but were a leader because of who they were and how other people saw them. Yeah yeah.

Jacquie Cooper:

So we thought invest in both equally, because sometimes the most powerful person in the school is the head of the social club, correct. And so we did a whole series of learning and we did hard conversations and we did implementation and the dip that goes with that. And everyone had their own little projects and everyone got you know myself or a deputy, as a kind of coach and people picked big, ambitious projects, negotiated in line with what the school needs, but stuff that made their eyes shine and so help them with them. And some people said I'm going to sort out the shed where the outdoor bikes are. And I said, okay, I was thinking where's this going? And then, as we unpicked it, oh, because you need to negotiate with 11 EAs as to how those bikes are going to be stored and who's going to clean it out and who's going to get them in and who's going to fix the handles.

Jacquie Cooper:

And I thought never would have thought of that as a leadership project, but the growth and the restraint it showed of that person and the growth they had to do to not just come in on the Saturday and do it when no one was around, was massive. So I think people learn through doing. We can't do everything and I've had to learn that when other people do things, it's okay that it doesn't look the same as what you would do, and I just think we need to grow people and keep people in the profession, getting as much out of it as they put into it.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, and the research says that when you ask people what their ideal job is I mean this is not just teaching, but generally they say a subset of what I currently do. So the numero teacher says I'd love to do that all day, every day, but they know they can't.

Jenny Cole:

So either a subset or they want to do more. They actually want to be more involved and be stretched, and what you just described was both. So for those aspirants who wanted to really step up, and for others, they just got a chance to do more of what they love that make their eyes shine.

Jacquie Cooper:

Brilliant? Yeah, absolutely. I actually wrote that in my diary to remind myself this year that you don't get stressed because you're doing too much. You get stressed because you're doing too little of what you love.

Jenny Cole:

Correct.

Jacquie Cooper:

I love that, that's exactly right, exactly right.

Jenny Cole:

Now that we're talking about diaries, tell me how you manage, because you're a mum of a very busy household and you're wrangling your partner, steve, who is also a principal, and he would get very cross if he wasn't mentioned at least once in this podcast.

Jacquie Cooper:

And he's definitely not a C-type personality. So, wrangling is probably the right word.

Jenny Cole:

So you're busy. You've got a busy job and a busy life. How do you prioritize? How do you fit everything in?

Jacquie Cooper:

Chaotically and all over the shop some days it feels like, but I guess, seeking advice from other people who do it. Well, I was told once by one of my mentors that in order to be a good principal, you've got to be a good mum and you've got to be good at sticking to your own routines and you've got to have good health and you've got to be a good Jacquie. So it's about finding that balance. So don't beat yourself up because you didn't do that paragraph for the board report last night because you were too busy doing something with the kids. That's important. So it's finding the balance between holding yourself accountable and doing the things you need to do, and sometimes that means you don't meet your own expectations. And then, yes, they're trying to be realistic about that and, I guess, asking other people to do things, which is hard for me. So, yes, it would be great if you could go that P&C meeting to a deputy, yeah, and trusting it's fine, it'll go well, they're not going to do anything terrible, you know. And so balancing that.

Jacquie Cooper:

And then something I picked up from another principal I worked with was the to-do list right. So we know we've got a to-do list that never ends, ever. So her advice to me was write your to-do list and then, when you walk in in the morning, numbers one to five in priority of what you're actually going to do before you walk out the door. And it might be, you know, you get really good at writing your to-do list after a while because you say I'm going to read the email about the playground grant. Not going to do the playground grant, just going to read the email about that, because I know I can tick that off before I leave. So I do that and I'd commit to those five things. But but of course when you're a mom and people have to be picked up from school and whatever else, it's hard to hold yourself to that sometimes. So now I have a to-do list which is my week spread of my diary, and then on a Monday I'll go through and put the dots next to the stuff I need to do, and then Monday might highlight in green everything that I knock off the to-do list, and then Tuesday and so on, and then the last thing I do on a Friday is write anything that wasn't done into the next week. That for me is a driver enough to say need to work harder next week and some Fridays I'll go. Right, I'm not writing all these in, I'm going to knock a few of these off before I go.

Jacquie Cooper:

But if you write it down, you haven't lost it. It's there. If people say, can I do anything for you, I always go, oh, I don't know. But now I just look at my list and go yeah, actually I need these. Or can you brainstorm this for me a bit, because I've got to write something about it? Give me some ideas for the board report or whatever it is? So get help. It helps you manage yourself and I also can forward, plan a bit and go I know this is coming up, so I need to do that the week before and it's already on the to-do list.

Jenny Cole:

You're now putting it out on the days where it's likely to happen, knowing that you know you've got to fit it in between the meeting and that thing that you have to be at.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, and alongside that I'm a pen and paper girl and highlighters and post-it notes and you know all the mess and so don't beat yourself up if you don't get it done. But then the other thing I have to do is block out in my Outlook calendar because my school officers have my calendar and make appointments for me and things is block out time to actually do some stuff off the to-do list. Not be afraid, when I look on a Friday and go, there's a lot going on. I'm going to block out some hours where I don't have appointments to try and knock some of this stuff off.

Jenny Cole:

I love the fact that you've got school officers who will make appointments for you and do some of that stuff about managing your diary For those people who have school offices or support staff but don't use them for that. Talk to us about how you did that, why you think it's important to use that resource in that way.

Jacquie Cooper:

So I've actually gone as far now as to have a PA which is just one of the school offices, renamed as the PA, and their priorities whatever I give them to do, and they support the front office. It was hard. It's really hard, to let someone take over control of your diary and tell you what time you'll be at places and things, and it's hard to articulate the way you like to work. So there's a lot of learning on my part of how I ask for things and how I do things and how I communicate a priority of something. I've not yet gone as far as to let my PA have access to my emails, but that's something I need to do. But the amount of stuff that is paperwork based or I can get someone else to do some legwork on is ridiculous. And once you start and you've got someone good and you train them up on the basics, you can get so much done by them carrying some of the load for you, typing out the letter for you.

Jacquie Cooper:

I have case conferences on a Monday, so walking in on a Monday and having all of the student files for the case conferences on my desk ready to go Now I know that might only take me six minutes to walk down and get them out of the filing cabinet, but at six minutes you can spend on something else and cumulatively makes a massive difference. They're also a good stop gap. So a parent who's really agitated about something they get an action straight away because they've got a meeting in my diary. But I get time to go right. I need to find out the truth about that or work this out, or that'll be a meeting we'll have a cup of teas for. So yeah, don't underestimate the power of a stopgap either.

Jenny Cole:

I want to jump down the video and give you a hug. I just think more leaders need to delegate more of the very, very low-level stuff that other people get joy out of doing. I know your PA just loves to organise and type and spreadsheets all of that kind of stuff.

Jacquie Cooper:

And talk to I2Hours about the thingies on the wall.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, just make it work Because it allows you to do the really important stuff that only a principal can do, and that might just mean talking to your lovely Aboriginal parents. It could be having those being able to find time to sit in those case conferences and truly be present, because you're not worrying about some data collection thing that's happening.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, and I still make the decisions, or my team still make the decisions. But here's all the PL requests and so I just look at them on a Tuesday morning and approve or not approve I don't, I've got that one. I need to look at this and do we have the money in the cost center? And they just bring it to me all and I just make a decision. You know it makes you more efficient and more effective. Finding the right person is loves it and yeah, so that is her.

Jacquie Cooper:

One of her level three responsibilities is the dot timetable, and she spends hours and weeks on it at the end of the year prior and just comes up with these amazing creative solutions that I don't think myself or the deputies would come up with, because we just don't have time. So it's her thing, and if you believe someone can get shiny eyes from a dot timetable, that's her. It took a lot of trust and courage to you do it, then, and I'll stand by it. You know, and I'll back you and you make the decision, but let people do stuff they want to do Absolutely, and it's hard as a leader to know what to let go of, especially because, again, coming back to your C disc style, it's all about accuracy, doing a good job, doing it properly, and I'm sure there was a lot of.

Jenny Cole:

will she do it as well as me? Will she have thought about this? Will she have considered that? Will she have talked to that person about such and such? But you've got to give them trust in order for them to do the job properly and you've got to start small and realistic too.

Jacquie Cooper:

So the first time she did it, I gave her everyone's work, fractions, all the minutes they needed, the parameters around who needed to do what, and I gave her the timetable and I gave her a pencil doing pencil, and then I'll check it and then we'll talk about it. And then, and you know, another great analogy another of my mentors gave me was you know, when you're growing a leader, it's like bowling. So you start off with the bumper guards up and the ramp thing, so the pencil and the thing and everything done. She had the ramp and the bumper guards.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, and the next year the ramp was gone and now if she needs someone, a specialist, to swap days, she goes and talks and says, hey, would you swap a day Because it would work better, and then comes and says to me oh yeah, he's happy to swap from a Tuesday to a Wednesday. You're right with that? Oh good, so it comes such a long way, but it didn't be disheartened when you start and it takes a little bit more work, because when it's the next year or the next time depends how often something happens. You end up with this great understanding of each other and it really is easier.

Jenny Cole:

It's the good old gradual release of responsibility. It's the teacher man to finish all of those analogies that we know. If we give people enough guidance and opportunity to practice, they're going to do it properly.

Jacquie Cooper:

That's right, and we just get so bogged down, I think, with our workload that we don't want to add more, but you've got to add it so you can take it away eventually and if it's what makes her eyes shine, then it's not adding.

Jenny Cole:

It doesn't feel like more to her. Yeah, you said in one of the things that you did send me that two things in our jobs are important. Be a handbrake and find a handbrake. Be a cheerleader and find a cheerleader.

Jenny Cole:

Tell me about that.

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, so I think you need to surround yourself with some really good colleagues and like a collegiate group or a group of friends or something. Early on, I connected with a group who were all deputies at the time. Now we're all principals and in different places and doing different things. But Now we're all principals and in different places and doing different things, but we connected and we'd ring and say I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that.

Jacquie Cooper:

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that. You know, like they have a high enough trust that you can say that is do not go. Are your staff you know what? Maybe I'll give it a bit more time. So, yeah, that's being a handbrake and finding a handbrake, and then I think, and someone you can be completely honest with, because that's not someone in your school as much as you'd like it to be and then a cheerleader you need someone to celebrate when you do good stuff, because we just don't do that. I don't think we do it well as teachers or as principals, and I don't think we do it very well as Australians, to be honest.

Jenny Cole:

It's part of our culture.

Jacquie Cooper:

So find someone to say, man, that was good, your new business plan's great. You know you get nominated for it. You think, oh my gosh, what a dorky. But they're like good on you, you know. And you know I feel like when my collegiate group friends have success, I feel like I'm a part of that and it kind of spurs you on to do more stuff, and so then I think I want to share this with them because they helped me get there, and so if you have those two things, I think it's like creating your own bowling bumper guards.

Jenny Cole:

Oh, I love it. I love it. You've given me a new analogy. I always like a new analogy. And the bowling one works on all sorts of levels. The collegiate group one is they're going to be your bumper, they don't want you to step out of the lane, they're going to protect you, but they're going to stand at the back of the lane court whatever and go yay and cheer you along. Fantastic. So you've obviously got a tight group of people that you've been collegiate with for a while Wider networks.

Jenny Cole:

what are the importance of wider networks within education?

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah. So I think it's a massive job and you can't have done everything and you can't know everything, and there's a difference between reading something on Icon or reading a policy and actually living it. So you know, you get like-minded people and it's easier to connect with them. But then connecting with people who don't think like you equally and I think they make my job so much easier, people that I can call and I can say hey, when you had a coffee van on site, what was the difference between inside the fence and outside the fence? And remind me why you did that, because I've got a coffee van, that kind of stuff.

Jacquie Cooper:

But then you know, why would I not share that with someone else? So you know I'm always saying no-transcript. So I think you know we've got a really good cell which is just the four schools around us and we share really openly and do things to make each other better and currently organising a camp to Canberra because none of us want to take all of our year sixes but we can pressure from parents we all want to take some. So you know that's something we can do together to be better. And then you know I've got my you know region network that we're a part of and I think it.

Jacquie Cooper:

You know, having a group that you don't choose is important because you learn things that you wouldn't necessarily think about. And then, yeah, I've connected through associations and things just to keep that really broad and to keep drawing on other people's expertise and I talk about collective genius a lot with my staff. So you know, you're only as good as everyone's combined knowledge. So keep collecting people who know stuff and sharing what you know, because we all just get better from it.

Jenny Cole:

That's such lovely advice. Have you got any other advice for new or aspiring leaders?

Jacquie Cooper:

Yeah, find yourself some mentors. So not a mentor, some mentors why more than one?

Jacquie Cooper:

Because I think, unless they're a really good coach and you're getting coached they are going to tell you how to be really good the way they're really good, and sometimes that doesn't suit you and that's not your style or that's not your context. And I think, because we've all got different experiences, that my mentors have all given me really different, really important things to help me grow. It doesn't mean you need to meet with them every week or whatever, but, yeah, get yourself a range of people that you can ask questions to and connect with and spend time with, to sort of grow yourself and never think you're in a situation that no one else has been in, because we have.

Jenny Cole:

so you know, that's what my first mentor, my first mentor, said to me. If it's been done, it's been done. It's been done before. So find someone who's done it before, because who knew that there was a policy on coffee vans inside or outside the fence? Who knew the person who found out? They knew and they're going to tell you. You can't know everything.

Jacquie Cooper:

No, and generally people find out these things because they've been in trouble for it. So we all make mistakes and it's how we all learn.

Jenny Cole:

So yeah, and keep coming back. Absolutely yeah, they're not. Failures aren't fatal, they're just you take a risk, make a mistake, fess up if you've done it wrong and then do it better next time. That's right. Yeah, I'm going to finish off. I could talk to you all day. As you know, Favourite professional learning, favourite book how do you stay current?

Jacquie Cooper:

Listening to some audio books recently and reading's not my favourite thing, even though I'd like to read more. So I often start reading books and don't get to the end of them. Favourite professional learning. I like going to a conference because you get a splattering of everything that's new and you feel like you kind of come up to date with a couple of different stuff and you can follow up on that. But I think the best stuff I've done is the real learning about myself as a leader. So either the disc stuff or the growth stuff through the PLI or and then not just doing the session but then connecting with someone to talk about that stuff, ongoing so that you really learn from it. I think that's the most powerful thing for me.

Jenny Cole:

Beautiful Jacquie, it's always a delight to talk to you and I'm sure your off-sider was grumpy that he wasn't invited on the podcast. He might be another time. Thank you so much. I will make sure that if anybody needs to contact you, that they have your details and you enjoy 2025. Thank you, and I'm sure I'll see you soon.