What if you are reading fairy tales all wrong? What if the witch is actually the good guy? In episode 38, we're talking Donna Lee Fields, a teacher-trainer and speaker in the international educational circuit with a passion for looking deeper into the underlying messages in fairy tales. The Witch as the Hero of Fairy Tales was the title of her doctoral thesis. We talked about fairy tales and how the stereotypes we’ve made about the characters of the princess and the witch, may be wrong. We also discussed winter celebrations, their similarities and differences and their related religions based off one of her student-centered activities created for educators.
Links:
https://www.youtube.com/@donnaleefields
As a gift for listening to Vanessa's podcast with Donna, find a free scaffold from her award-nominated website here.
Subscribe and Follow:
Fabric of Folklore website
Twitter
Main Points
Follow us:
Fabric of Folklore website
What if you are reading fairy tales all wrong? What if the witch is actually the good guy? In episode 38, we're talking Donna Lee Fields, a teacher-trainer and speaker in the international educational circuit with a passion for looking deeper into the underlying messages in fairy tales. The Witch as the Hero of Fairy Tales was the title of her doctoral thesis. We talked about fairy tales and how the stereotypes we’ve made about the characters of the princess and the witch, may be wrong. We also discussed winter celebrations, their similarities and differences and their related religions based off one of her student-centered activities created for educators.
Links:
https://www.youtube.com/@donnaleefields
As a gift for listening to Vanessa's podcast with Donna, find a free scaffold from her award-nominated website here.
Subscribe and Follow:
Fabric of Folklore website
Twitter
Main Points
Follow us:
Fabric of Folklore website
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welcome folksy folks welcome to fabric of folklore I'm your Hostess Vanessa y Rogers and this is the podcast where we
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unravel the mysteries of folklore this podcast is about exploring the deeper
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meanings of what we humans do to create Community to create identity folklore is
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folktales but it's also fairy tales music celebrations our Traditions help to bind
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us but they also tell our story this podcast is about digging into that history that in its significance and
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meaning in one of our recent episodes we talked to Melanie Kirkpatrick about
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Thanksgiving and the original Pilgrim and Native American first Thanksgiving story and she related how some people
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have been taught wrongly that the pilgrim were helping the Native Americans by feeding them when in fact
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the wag tribe provided a three-day Feast for the starving pilgrims who would have likely died without the tribe's
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assistance the stories we tell ourselves about who we are create our identity and
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that's one reason we'd like to dive in to the history to uncover the roots and the significance and its messaging so if
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that sounds like a podcast that you are interested in following make sure that you hit that subscribe button right now
1:30
whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcasting platform like apple or Spotify hit that subscribe button so
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that you get those notifications every week when our podcast drops our our
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episode today is going to be so fantastic we have a guest Donna Lee Fields she's a teacher trainer and
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speaker in the international educational circuit and has been a primary secondary and University teacher she collaborates
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with Publishers and Innovative educational organizations globally to to Pro to promote student- centered
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learning environments these activities and strategies can be found at her website scaffolding magic.com dun also
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has a podcast doorways to learning which highlights Educators on every continent who are devoted to more active and
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diverse educational opportunities her other passion is looking deeper into the
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underlying messages in fairy tales her doctoral thesis was on the
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witch as the hero of fairy tales which is a we'll be exploring in the show
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today we'll be talking about fairy tales and how the stereotypes we've made about the characters of The Princess and The
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Witch May in fact be wrong we'll also be discussing winter celebrations and their
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related religions based off of one of Donna's lesson plans so thank you so much for joining us
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Donna oh my goodness it's so nice to be here Vanessa thank you so much I just
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love your missionary statement and what you're trying to explore and all of your podcast so let's get into it you tell me
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where you want to start yeah well thank you um so let's start with your
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educational uh background and what you're trying to do with scaffolding magic and doorways to
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learning all right well that's a big one but I'll try to you know pair it all down to what's really important I became
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a teacher I'm from New York City I became a teacher in New Mexico in New Mexico it was very important to speak
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Spanish so I came to Spain which thinking oh I'll just be here for a couple of months learn Spanish and go
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back and I'm here more than 20 years later but the scaffolding came out of my
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experience first in New Mexico I was in a school that was in the middle of
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nowhere except for the state prison the state prison was the land that we shared and we would be the third people that
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were called if there was an escape in the prison which happened um you first
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who was the governor and the mayor in any case what the reason why I'm saying this is because the children in my
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classroom were the children of the prisoners in the state prison so it wasn't the most it wasn't the population
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that had education as its priority so to me I grew up in a community and in a
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family and in a larger community in which education was primary we loved
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learning and even if we didn't we had to learn you know this was our mission in life and I thought that's how everyone
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grew up and when I realized that these kids did not have education as their priority and knowing at least at that
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time that education would get them out of their Dynamic and and where they were
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probably going I did everything I could to try to get them excited about learning and even if I couldn't get them
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excited about it I tried to sort of trick them into learning and Scaffolding came out of that and Scaffolding
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essentially is they're different activiities that introduce information
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in different ways that use your whole body and all of your senses and so you're Learning Without Really realizing
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it you're doing something that you'd like to do without even realizing it so it started there and it just has kept
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growing and I believe in it so strongly when teachers use the these scaffolding
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techniques they realize how powerful they are the challenge is getting them to use it so that's scaffolding there's
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so much more but you tell me now when I think of scaffolding I think
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of um you know architecture is that is that what you're referencing when you
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with scaffolding magic the scaffold the term scaffolding
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comes out of the term to scaffold a building so you're you're building a structure around a building to support
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it before you put in everything in the middle and it's supposed to if you understand that concept then scaffolding
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is a perfect term I have problems with the term so I actually wrote a book book on scaffolding and called it giving a
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helping hand to me that explains it you are giving a helping hand to students
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they are giving a helping hand to each other so either one I know people who like the term and the image of a
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scaffold around the building supporting it until all of the Interior Design is made and then you can take the
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scaffolding away or what I like is here's an activity that will build on the vocabulary or the concept or the IM
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of the lesson you're about to learn so that you feel supported as you're moving into it you tell me what you like
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more and and is the magic part is that the learning is that um uh the education
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element is it creating the magic for the students is that what you meaning well it's really interesting
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because nobody has ever asked me that before and as you were asking I realized
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is that that comes from my love of fairy tales and that's the other thing we were going to talk about today so I love
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magic I love fairy tales and I put education and fairy tales and Magic together and think that if you use these
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techniques magic will happen and I see it happen so you could say you know
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Higher Learning is happening I say magic is happening well you know for me I I also
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grew up in a household where education was Paramount and learning was something
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that people we we loved it wasn't a chore it was something that was fun and
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I think when you you go into education with that mindset it is magical in in
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that way and so to me that's a really lovely way of
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structuring Education as something that is magical and exciting whe rather than you know
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something that b LS you down and something that you know causes you a headache or or or a struggle um so
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anyways I I love that imagery personally um so let's talk about winter
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celebrations H you have a specific lesson plan that you've created
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around winter celebrations and international religion day can you talk a little bit about what got you
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interested in that sure it's very personal I think it's it's but it's also
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about connection and the irony is that winter celebrations are about connection most of the time it's a connection
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within a community but for me I grew up in a Jewish community in a Jewish household and um I was very comfortable
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there was a large Jewish Community where I grew up and often a lot of times there are isolated Jewish families in my case
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it wasn't that so I had a very strong very positive identity as a Jewish girl growing up I don't consider myself
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Jewish now I Comm consider myself human in a world where there are many different religions and many different
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celebrations I still have obviously the culture of
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being Jewish which means education is fundamental questioning thing is f i
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mean there's a joke if you have two Jews you'll have three opinions because we question everything
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I question curriculum and I questioned why we were only celebrating Christmas at school
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you're in the States now I'm in Spain but I I I think when you can tell me
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this more accurately than than I know right now as I was leaving it was more
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common to call the Christmas holidays the winter holidays which is more respectful to everyone in the world if
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you call it the winter holidays I don't know in in your area would you call it still Christmas or winter
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holidays um wellend depends on who you're talking to but I think in schools
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in general they try and be py and and try and be inclusive and so I I believe
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it's called winter holidays okay so that works for me but
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when I was growing up it was called Christmas holidays and even though in in my family and in my extended family we
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were going to celebrate Hanukkah it was called the Christmas holidays so the idea is because I was brought up with a
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very healthy relationship with questioning when I I question what we were doing in the curriculum in the
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classroom and in the school and I remember one of my first years I walked into the school and I saw a little
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Christmas tree with presents around it and I was furious and I questioned the
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person who did it and I just asked him why why it wouldn't be so easy to
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include a Quanza candle include a manora and include other representations of
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winter celebrations in the world it wasn't in that case that we had so A
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diversity of students we were in the middle of the country in New Mexico it
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was mostly Hispanic and a few white white children even so um I thought it was
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very important for the children to know about other Winter holidays because we were there to present them with
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information to help expand their minds and perspectives of the world and if they walk into a school and only see a
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Christmas tree their perspective is the world celebrates Christmas which we
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know is not true so with my lesson on winter celebrations I include as many
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winter celebrations as I can find and actually Vanessa actually the lesson was
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developed with a none I work in Spain with a lot of schools called concer and
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these are schools that are half run by the church and half run by the state and a little by the parents and I thought oh
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my goodness you know I grew up Jewish what do I know about Christianity and how am I going to get along with the
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nuns who run the school and it turns out in these specific schools these nuns are
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incredibly well educated and very open-minded and it was this nun who
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asked me to amplify her lesson and include as many religions as I wanted to
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and so the lesson that I'm going to send your listeners is this very lesson that we created together and it's
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celebrating I think we have 10 different religions in it and what it asks them to do is look at
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the differences and then look at the connections look at the similarities and
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think what in the world sort of mirrors this Dynamic these
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celebrations the coming together of a community how these celebrations within
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a community separate them and how could we connect them and that's really my my
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big goal with the with this lesson well I really love that I I I
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don't think I ever had a lesson like that in school and I think that that is so important to uh see the world outside
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of your small bubble because there's so much more to the world than where we are
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currently you know and being able to see people outside and how they they
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celebrate different holidays and how they have different Traditions is is
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really important to understand and know because then we just become so otherwise
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we become you know more self-centered and think that the entire world revolves around us um so that I I love that can
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you in the lesson plan when I was reading yeah exactly in the lesson plan
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I saw that you refer to a day called International religion day um can you
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talk a little bit about that sure it to me that the date isn't as
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important as everything about the date and it's really just what I'm saying it's it's um an international day that
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someone has invented so that people would question what's going on why are there different religions what are the
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religions for um how did you know we like to think and I'm going to be a
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little controversial here because we like to think that religion is from whatever higher power we believe in um
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and I personally don't believe that I think that religions come from a need to structure Our Lives which is fine that's
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wonderful but we need to acknowledge that could be why there is this um
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evolution of religions were religions meant to separate people I don't believe
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so my sisters are very religious I'm not religious they like the structure they
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need the structure wonderful it helps them feel secure it helps them it gives them a path during the year of what they
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need to do it gives them a community and that's what I see with so many people it gives them a community a structure a way
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to to put their lives into a framework and see you know how they can play with
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a little bit and it gives them people to bounce off ideas
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from it at the base of every religion I see love I think that usually if you get
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down to it there is love at the basis of every religion if we could acknowledge that then we could realize that no
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matter how you're living your life you know the day-to-day part then your religion is trying to help you make
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connections with everyone else you find in the street no matter if they're they follow your structure or not um this day
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of religion from what I understand about it is yes it's to question that and
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hopefully get to the same conclusions as I have but other conclusions are very welcome and so my understanding is other
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teachers from around the world purchase your lessons plans to use in their own classrooms is that
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right yeah I have a store and so I plan lessons I have a lot of scaffolds I have a few lessons but more of their
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scaffolds that go into their lessons and it can complement any of their lessons and so I mean they're not expensive
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teachers do not make a lot of money and so I make them very very affordable but it takes me a lot of time to make them
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and I really do value them and so I used to just give them away in all my workshops and now I do have a store so
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can't apologize for it but I do say that I understand that it's an investment yeah and so I'm I'm curious
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the reaction that you receive to this particular lesson plan do you feel like
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it is or scaffolding um do you feel that it is controversial or do you feel that it is
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um something that people are craving or
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both very acceptive yeah I love that question
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Vanessa I love it because when I did it the fact that I did it with a nun thinking she would be the last person
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that would want want to do something like that I thought oh my goodness then
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everyone is going to be so to this and it got me very excited about it and the truth is that and all the other coner
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the schools that I work with they really did respond well to it until until I
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came up and I came up um with a lot of resistance and and in resistance where I
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didn't expect it and it was schools that were more geared towards the church you
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know more really trenched in like trenched in their beliefs I didn't
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expect it and it was a real what can I say I was disappointed more than
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anything um it was just a lesson one of the teachers shared with me and it was
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just this I said could you share your lessons about winter celebrations with me and I just want to say distinguish
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between the scaffolding and this particular lesson the scaffolding the teachers usually
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love they say they love them and then they won't use them because they don't know how to fit them this is the Spanish
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teachers they don't know how to fit them into their curriculum and I that qualification because when I work with
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American teachers or British teachers they're so excited about them I work with Finn teachers or Egyptian teachers
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very excited about them there's a big heavy traditionalism here in Spain and there's a lot of um in there's a lot of
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people looking at what you're doing in the classroom and there's less creative possibilities but when we're talking
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about the lesson I just one this happened once and then it happened over and over again until I am cautious about
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sharing it and because your audience is more American then they're going to be more
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accepting of a lot more diversity but all that happened is one of the teachers
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presented her lesson that I thought was going to be diverse and she was started with baby Jesus and she kept talking
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about baby Jesus and baby Jesus and I thought this is exactly what I grew up with all you need and I said to her
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could you possibly ADD baby Buddha for instance or baby
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I don't know I thought that I was doing it nicely I thought that I was doing it to make her laugh she was Furious and
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she said I'm in a school where we celebrate Christmas and
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Christ and this is the lesson I'm going to to share
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anded about it you have to accept it there's no way to push someone like that
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what would you have done seriously in your
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position do you mean in your position or in in her
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position oh I'm sorry do you want me to keep going oh no no no I was just wondering
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if someone minded this and you presented and they they said something to you that
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you felt was a little Nar nrow would you try to convince them or would you accept
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it kind of you know be a little bit disappointed but keep moving on or would
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you make an effort to help them see another perspective it depends I think on the
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person because I think that a lot of times you know we wrap our identity
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around specific things and people have a hard time time
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sometimes stretching that identity and they feel vulnerable and attacked if
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they perceive uh other ideas
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as um valuable or or realistic I I I
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think that there is this mindset yes is threatening and and so when the person
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is feeling attacked they aren't able to
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think clearly and they aren't able to think openly and so I think that a lot
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of times when people have those mindsets it's just it's harder to have those conversations
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without them having done the work themselves previously I think there are some things
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that we can do but and and one of the things that I one of the reasons I do
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this podcast is because I think that one of the best ways to get people to think
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about other ways of being and other ways of living and other Traditions is
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through storytelling and it's one of the most unthreatening ways to have
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conversations that are difficult and so but I I I think in those types of
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situations it's it's you know you just have to let them do what they're going
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to do
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um yeah and I think that's incredibly P perspective that's that's really perceptive of
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you yeah um I'm from New York and we are very good at expressing our opinions
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very strongly and I and in New Mexico I had to bring it down a lot and I thought I had brought it you know been more
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diplomatic she just was threatened by the whole idea so you're right it just had it was something that I had to let
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go yeah and you know a lot of times it's
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just little tiny chinks that come at different times in your life that cause
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you to start thinking in different ways but if you aren't able to be open to
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those new ideas that kind of Peck in and you just see them as threats then it's
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you're unable to change your mind in any way so it's it just depends on where you
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are in your life and how open you can be to things like that um can you talk
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about how well said the students react to the uh the the
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scaffolding the the lesson plans how they um ex how accepting are they do they
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find it enlightening what what did they come away
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with again I love the question I was actually able to be in the room a couple of times when we gave this lesson in the
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very beginning and Not only was the teacher who is the nun you know the director of the school she was all three
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of them at once she was so excited about it so her students were excited about it but she gave her students the the space
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to really explore each of the religions and she came up with lot of her own activities in it and the students were
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so excited because it wasn't just talking about one religion it was exploring the lights and the candles and
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the color and the food and the music of all these different religions and she brought in a lot of the um the materials
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from each of these celebrations so that it was very empirical and they could really Express
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things because they were touching and they were feeling and they were smelling and tasting and it was a whole um
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sensory experience for them what student would not enjoy that and she did it we
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both planned it so that so many different learning styles were present there were some graphing so people who
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needed the really logical side of it could see what was common in each
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religion and then there was of course the food and we could see what you know
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spices and sugar and something was bitter in in different countries other
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parts of the world were celebrating and they were clothes and so she had a lot of pictures and some of them she could
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bring in and they could really you know try the is on so yeah the students loved
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it I just have to say they loved it and so what are some of the common threads
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that are are seen in these different religions and different uh
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[Applause] [Music] celebrations I would say there's
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probably there's probably two or three common threads the most important one is Winter holidays happen in most of the
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countries that we're thinking of over you know the the darkest parts of the
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year and so it's really vanquishing the darkness so candles Fire Light is a huge
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is the most important part of it in Japan they have this whole park where
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they I mean Japan is they're very special over there my sister goes to Japan a lot and we talk about this a lot
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very very different culture but so beautiful in this I think they do it in
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February they take this whole park lined with trees and they have millions and
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millions of light bulbs lighting up the entire park and it really is where
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people can go and feel less sad about the darkness Quan is about lights we
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have dwali which is throwing which is colors and lights and they're all
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about which we really need if you talk to Scandinavians if you talk to people who are living in the north they realize
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themselves it's too much Darkness for the human being they need to have more light in their lives so Winter holidays
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came out of this need you know sort of pagan need to light up their life
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literally then you have of course music because music and dance will always make you feel it brings up your vibration a
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lot and then food and we don't want heavy food so there's usually sweets and
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sweets will help you it'll give you a nice little high for a little bit at least and keep you smiling so are things
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that'll bring you together and remind you that there's that Sun is going to
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come back for a longer period of time and so just hang on a little bit longer and you have the people in your
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community around to support you so can you name can you talk about all
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the different um celebrations that are in the the lesson plane you don't have
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to go through through all of them but you know just to give us a little bit of of um some of
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them yeah um sure I mean some of them
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there's Boxing Day in England which is associated with Christmas but it's a different it's a different sort of
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Celebration we have the Chinese New Year there's dwali there's Hanukkah Quanza there's Las padas which is in Mexico and
28:36
a lot of different Latin countries there's ST luia which sounds like a Christian holiday really but it really
28:41
is a pagan holiday that is celebrating this one woman's strength during an
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event um those are the ones that come up to come to mind there are other
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celebrations those are the winner celebrations that's what we really want to talk about
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right okay so all of those and more yeah yeah um so I I was as I was reading
29:08
through your um plan you ask a lot of really good deep questions and so I
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wanted to ask you a couple of them um the first question that you ask the
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students to consider and I I it's it's very good um how might the world be
29:28
different economically socially and politically if world leaders were more authentically tolerant of all religions
29:36
and eal egalitarian regarding gender um so can you talk a little bit
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about how this question shows up in the classroom and and what comes up yeah
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this really interesting because so far I haven't had a teacher who has dared to try that question they've never gotten
29:57
that far far they love the whole celebration part but they've never gotten to the part where they can ask their students
30:03
to think about the question research it and come up with their own conclusions it's more of a question for secondary
30:10
students for high school students and so far I haven't at
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least teacher hasn't told me some of the conclusions they've gotten to what I
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would like my ideal is to have them think about um what a government would
30:26
be like like that thought was more compassionate more empathetic we're going to get there one day we're not
30:32
there yet we're in sort of a Vortex we're sort of this dark Vortex of people who are coming to power that are not
30:38
compassionate and not empathetic and they're much more concerned with their own power and with
30:43
materialism and um mostly men mostly men and I am not political so I couldn't
30:51
give you specifics but I do know that um and I encouraged the younger people in
30:57
the states at least that they need to vote because if they don't they're letting white men make their decisions
31:03
for them and I think largely that's true hopefully that's not going to be true
31:08
soon but we're in a sort of vortex in time when we are letting these men make
31:15
our decisions and it's usually I I donate to women I
31:23
donate to when I'm in an organization called Kaa you might be familiar with it and what Kea does is encourages women in
31:31
especially rural areas to ask for loans so that they can create their own
31:36
businesses and the Studies have shown all over the world that when the woman has more control over the money finances
31:43
you seem to know what what I'm talking about that when the woman has more control over finances the whole family
31:50
benefits and the children are usually fed more regularly they go to school more regularly they're clothed etc etc
31:57
it's really about the social the social elements of how boys and girls are
32:03
brought up in different women are usually brought up to be more empathetic
32:08
and boys are usually I'm not saying always brought up to think about what to do with their money and
32:17
their um entitlement we can say and it doesn't I'm not saying and I don't
32:23
believe that men can't be empathetic because I know men who are empathetic and I know that men care deeply about
32:30
their families but on the whole in general if women have more financial
32:35
power within the family the whole family does benefit and so in an Ideal World we
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would have governments who think about the people instead of justifying their
32:48
decisions because they want to make more money and they want to put the stress on money and that's a very superficial way
32:55
to answer that question but it's a start
33:00
yeah um feel oh I love how you keep flipping the
33:09
questions back on me um yeah
33:14
no I definitely agree with you I you know I'm not sure I had really thought
33:22
deeply about it before I saw you pose the question in your lesson plan which
33:27
is why I thought it was such a great question because and and you actually asked a lot of good deep questions in
33:34
your lessons PL that I I think would be quite difficult I mean even I mean I'm I
33:41
have a master's degree and so I I've gone through quite a bit of education but these are some questions that
33:47
require a lot of of depth and and thinking oh the light on my face is
33:54
really bad let me you're gorgeous Vanessa don't worry about it let me let me do that I'm
34:01
noticing lot of splotching um but
34:06
I I I feel like a lot of the questions that you ask are you know require deep
34:13
thought because you know I had to start thinking about the different governments
34:18
that run countries and how they base their government where where they base
34:25
their government from and is it based in in a religion and so you know there was
34:31
there's so many things to to think about when you're thinking about that that
34:36
question and how each element is uh really affecting their decision making
34:44
and so yeah I think having an understanding of what role religion
34:49
plays in government decisions is really a fantastic question for all of
34:57
us to really consider um okay so I wanted to get to
35:04
the fairy tales but I I had one last question about uh the religions and when
35:11
you were doing the research were there any elements of the uh traditions and
35:19
the winter celebrations that came up that you were like oh that's beautiful that's magical I really would like to
35:26
incorporate that for me were there anything things that you found um
35:33
unique oh my goodness I really like that question I wish something would just pop into my mind um but most of it is just
35:42
the I know most of it was just seeing the different faces and seeing the the
35:47
variety of people who celebrate it wasn't anything new necessarily because
35:53
there's lights and there's food and there's dance and there's music as I was saying before but it was really the joy
35:58
of seeing the diversity of people who were inv involved in these celebrations
36:03
and I kept thinking you know I'm living in a country right now that doesn't have a lot of diversity and I wish for them I
36:09
wish for them that they saw more of these faces um there's a lot of Now traffic coming up from Africa so there's
36:16
few more darker skinned people here and the the population is adjusting and not
36:21
really well all the time but there aren't a lot of Asians here and there aren't a lot of you know Indians here
36:28
there aren't there isn't a lot of diversity so as I'm looking at these pictures it goes back more to my
36:34
childhood where there was that so your question is absolutely gorgeous and I think that other teachers and other
36:41
people will say oh my goodness that's a beautiful tradition I want to start that I grew up lighting candles and in
36:49
Christmas you don't light candles so much you see lights on a tree I love lighting a candle something about
36:56
holding fire fire in your hand and passing it over to another candle and that for me is very spiritual and very
37:03
dramatic um these other holidays I think it really is about the beautiful
37:09
communities that um that celebrate them and there is one thing with K Quanza the
37:15
pictures that I found it's from all it's from ancient African celebrations and
37:23
the dress of the Africans if they're doing completely just so beautiful and you be
37:29
familiar with that African-Americans when they really put on the African un they really own their past it's it's
37:37
very powerful and very beautiful I would not look good in those outfits but I like seeing other people with them
37:44
on um there's also one other thing I'd like to say if you don't mind Vanessa
37:49
before we get into sorry go ahead I was just gonna say you you're wearing you're GNA say pink sweater your your shirt is
37:58
is a beautiful bright color I think that you would be able to to pull it
38:04
off I love color but I did want to say one last thing about questions that you were mentioning before you're getting
38:10
into fairy tales and I think that it goes back to growing up with questions and in all my scaffolds and all the
38:16
scaffolding activities I have this uh formative evaluation once they're finished and they're lower and higher
38:22
order thinking questions and what you and I are doing right now we're going for the higher order thinking questions
38:28
that's why I'm so engaged in this conversation because you're letting me be creative and you're asking me
38:34
questions that don't have one correct answer it's it's an answer that I can
38:40
give you that if I can justify then it's wonderful and so what I encourage teachers to do is go for those higher
38:47
level order questions because that's what we need today we don't need our students to just
38:55
answer rotely we need them to be creative to get us out of and so that's
39:01
the the last question the comment I have about questions in in that context all
39:06
right thank you for letting me say that and that's what education really should be about right about making you think
39:14
differently than how you were
39:20
raised I'm sorry some of that was cut off are you asking me do I think differently now than how I was raised no
39:26
I think that's what education should really be about about thinking outside
39:32
of how you were raised yeah okay so let's get into your
39:39
um doctoral thesis and it was witch's fairy tale your witch's fairy tale
39:46
thesis so tell us about what Drew you to this topic to begin
39:55
with I loved fairy tales growing up I just love them I read them all the time when I grew up we had this huge set I forget
40:02
what they were my sister has them now but it's a specific set of Green books at about 20 of them and they're filled
40:07
with fairy tales and I would read them over and over again all the time why I think that we love fairy tales as
40:14
children and even as adults because they give us a structure if we want to connect religion and fairytales we have
40:21
a structure here so in fairy tales now we have archetypes now there are
40:27
archetypes we have we can trust and when I say we can trust them because if you go back even to the Grims fairy tales
40:34
they go back thousands of years fairy tales the first versions but if you go to the Grims
40:39
fairy tales they're not that fun they're not that uplifting they are really gruesome and what for instance Walt
40:46
Disney did was whitewash them and I can say that literally and I can say it figuratively I am not a big fan of Walt
40:54
Disney um I think that he made it too um too archetypal too black and
41:01
white there are no nuances in Walt Disney stories and his versions and if
41:06
you're if you only know the Walt Disney versions you don't know fairy tales so I
41:12
grew up with a little more nuances the fairy tales before Walt Disney well you know what am I saying I grew up with
41:18
Walt Disney we sat in front of the TV when we were little with our little TV
41:23
dinners and we loved Walt Disney movies those aren't the fairy tales that I was in love with the fairy tales I was in
41:30
love with presented the king as you know this Billa vant person you can always
41:35
trust and the prince is always going to save the prince princess or kill the dragon the witch is the evil person you
41:42
can hate without for you know without apologizing that isn't life that isn't
41:48
life we need the nuances who is the king in real life the person with money does that mean the person with money is a
41:55
good person I don't think we can any of us any of us will say that's true who is
42:00
the prince why does the princess need to be saved I think women are pretty
42:06
incredible and I think women can save themselves and do not need a prince to
42:12
save them we I think having a partner is absolutely beautiful um whatever that
42:17
looks like but we don't need and I grew up thinking I need a prince to save me I
42:23
thought I needed a prince to make my life complete because that's what I learned and that's also the whole
42:29
General Society I lived in you grow up and you get married and you have children and I thought I was very lucky
42:34
that I didn't have a father who kind of gave me that idea that he was waiting for me to get married and have children
42:41
my sisters did that my brother did that so I was okay um but he didn't put any
42:46
pressure on them either but the idea is that fairy tales
42:52
give us a structure where we can feel safe but my impetus about studying them
42:58
is why I don't think I like to look beneath the lines and I was an English
43:04
major in college and I became a literature teacher afterwards and I like reading between the lines so that's how
43:11
my doctorate came about can you define fairy tale so shall
43:19
I explain a little bit about the witch yes but can you before beforehand
43:25
can you Define what you see as a fairy
43:32
tale oh wow wow I'm trying to think if I've ever
43:37
had to answer that question um fairy tale or folk tale between the two for instance or a regular story you know
43:44
Vanessa I'm not sure if I can answer that really well um well for you in your mind okay I
43:51
will say I'm going to try to save myself here I'll try to save myself
43:58
yeah okay so a fairy tale has archetypal characters yeah and one thing I learned
44:05
by doing it I'm trying to find the book behind me um is that there are patterns
44:11
and a fairy tale will have the same pattern in different cultures all over the world all over all through the
44:17
centuries and so a fairy tale for me will'll have the archetypes we'll be
44:23
telling an underlying message we'll be giving you message it's not like a a a book of fiction that you pick up and
44:29
that's it's super you know it's that's what it is the message is right there the fairy tale you need to look a little
44:37
deeper and it's it's a statement about society as well so that for me is a
44:42
fairy tale I think I've just saved myself yeah yeah absolutely um okay so
44:50
let's talk about the archetypal characters you you mentioned the king um
44:56
and then who else who else are archetypal characters in uh your fairy
45:02
tales okay well the king is usually the person who everyone looks to for
45:07
benevolence and for prote for protection you have the queen that's usually
45:13
non-existent who is either dead before the Story begins or dies in the first lines of the story in other words she's
45:19
innocuous she doesn't threaten the king at all or anyone else you have the prince who is supposed to be Noble and
45:26
either supposed to save the the kingdom or save the princess you have the princess who always has to be beautiful
45:32
usually doesn't say much and actually if we're going to go back to Disney the princess has almost no words she almost
45:39
has no dialogue then we have the witch and the witch can be an ogre or a monster or a troll or a woman and or the
45:46
step mother um sometimes she's named The Witch sometimes you just know that she's
45:52
the witch and the evil person that you want to hate so those are the archetypal character
45:59
and in your in your thesis you mentioned that we have prejudices against each different archetypes can you talk a
46:05
little bit about those those prejudices that we
46:14
develop sure and and in
46:20
today's lingua um I think we'd call them
46:25
what we would call them profiling um and I think that I talked a
46:32
little bit about the fact that police are trained to be profilers police are
46:40
trained to profile and in my mind I see that is coming from
46:48
um a household or the system you know becoming a policeman where you have to
46:55
profile to get your job done and I think that that's not with all policemen or
47:00
police women police agents but unfortunately in the United States we have so much profile going on because
47:07
it's easier so if you go to an archetype and you read a fairy tale it's very easy to love the king it's very easy to feel
47:14
that the prince has um has done his job because he's killed a dragon he's killed something or you saved the princess
47:21
nobody's asked the princess if she wanted to be saved or we hate the Witch and it's so easy to see things as black
47:27
and white and the same thing is is the archetypic patterning in the world it's so easy to to hate someone what's not
47:35
easy is to see that no matter what anyone does that is Despicable something
47:41
about them is also good that's not easy to balance between those two extremes so
47:47
if we have the archetypes in fairy tales and if we read them a lot and people celebrate them when we're young we think
47:54
oh then it's fine to see people as black and white it's fine not to try and see their goodness when they're acting
48:01
aggressively to us that's not the human experience that I think we're
48:09
supposed to be celebrating and Vanessa if it's okay with you let me just Define archetype so that I'm I'm explaining
48:16
archetype and profile at the same time there a lot of different definitions of archetype but I'm going to take and I
48:24
hate saying this because it's the youngan um definition I'm not really a fan of young but we'll just use that and
48:30
it's a collectively inherited unconscious idea it's a pattern of
48:35
thought that's universally accepted in an individual and where does that come
48:40
from you know another way to say it is a Prejudice very easy so a Prejudice can
48:46
be positive a Prejudice can be negative and unfortunately I think we've extracted from fairy tales a more
48:54
negative use of archetypes that has turned into profile and has turned profiling and has turned into an
49:03
inacceptable of differences and diversity and that's where I don't have
49:10
problems with fairy tales but I have problems with people who don't read fairy tales for what they're supposed to
49:15
be which is a statement about Society not not a literal interpretation of
49:21
society does that make sense can you define what that what the distinguishing
49:26
features would be sure I mean just as I say um the king
49:33
in the story is benevolent because he has a lot of money he has gold he has a castle where people feel safe in our
49:40
world a person with money is not necessarily generous they're usually the
49:45
opp no I should not say usually often they're the opposite not someone you necessarily trust just because they have
49:52
money and they have a big house why would you trust someone just because they have money in a big house why would
49:57
you not trust someone who lives in a little cottage you know it doesn't make
50:03
any sense so if we read a fairy tale because we enjoy it and because it's
50:08
easy wonderful but don't take away from that that that's what life is all about
50:15
we need to understand that there we there our challenges I my doctorate is
50:22
about the witch is a challenge any challenge you have in life is the Witch and it's up to us to decide how we were
50:28
going to face that witch that challenge if we face it and see all of the
50:34
different facets of that challenge the witch then we're going to come out growing ourselves we're going to come
50:41
out feeling very very good about our ability to assess something that's not
50:47
so easy but if you you look at a fairy tale and say the witch is someone I can
50:53
hate and I'm just going to hate anyone who does anything that I don't like that to me is a misinterpret
50:59
misinterpretation and and what is not necessarily appropriate to use the fairy
51:05
tales for okay so let's get into your thesis then what is the Crux of your your
51:17
thesis the Crux is just that that the witch is a challenge the witch is the heroine of the fairy
51:23
tales let's give you I'll give you an example um okay you have Snow White for instance I mean I love Rapunzel but I've
51:31
talked about Rapunzel in a different podcast if you want me to go into it I'm more than happy to but let's go with Snow White because it's a little simpler
51:37
and I can explain it with a little more fluidity Snow White make sure I'm
51:43
getting this right because sometimes I mix up the fairy tales Snow White um is beautiful and the stepmother who is the
51:49
witch in this case is threatened by her beauty and sends her out into the woods
51:56
and she's supposed to be killed well there are different facets of that
52:02
if you read the waly version you can hate the witch because she sends this poor little beautiful girl out into the
52:07
woods and she bites an apple eventually and goes to sleep For What 100 years until the prince kisses her if you read
52:14
other versions it's absolutely fascinating the stepmother actually sees
52:20
that the father who is sometimes the king is a little more attentive to his
52:25
than he needs to be and so what she does is she separates her poor stepdaughter from the father who does not is not old
52:32
enough to know what's going on yet and saves her she secludes her she makes
52:38
sure that she is in a different place than the father during the day and during the night and so she is actually
52:45
the heroine of the story because she is protecting her stepdaughter we don't usually read that version of it another
52:51
way to read it is that Snow White right Snow White is at the point of puberty
52:58
and she's feeling her sexuality she's learning she's feeling all these hormones going through her body and she
53:04
doesn't know what to do with it and she's in a small little town and she would make wrong choices so the
53:10
stepmother actually sends her away makes her um drugs her somehow and usually
53:17
it's an Apple so that she can sort of absorb her new sexuality before she goes
53:23
out in the world and she will make better choic again versions that we don't usually
53:28
read and they make a lot more sense than so again it's the witch being the
53:35
heroine it's looking beneath what's going on on the super on the The
53:41
Superficial and resolving the situation as well as she can so those are very
53:48
simple ways to see the fairy tale the witch is the heroin okay talk about Rapunzel I I'm
53:55
interested now to hear about how the witch is a heroin in Rapunzel as
54:04
well the heroin of Rapunzel okay so you probably know the story we usually the story starts with
54:11
Rapunzel up in a tower and she has this beautiful golden hair and whenever the witch wants to go up she says Rapunzel
54:17
Rapunzel let down your golden hair Rapunzel does it the witch climbs up and she takes care of her you know does
54:22
whatever she needs to do um in most in some of the older versions we find out
54:28
how Rapunzel ended up in that Tower how she ended up up in the
54:34
tower was because her parents her mother was preg and she had these cravings and
54:42
what you read Pono which is Spanish for a specific type of fruit that only grew in the witch's Garden next door and
54:50
instead of knocking on the witch's door and asking if she could have some of this fruit she asked her husband the
54:55
king to go over and steal the fruit for her because her Cravings were so bad the witch catches the king and says you're
55:02
in my garden without permission you can have that fruit but in exchange what will you give me and the King says I'll
55:09
give you my daughter fine you know it's just something that is so inappropriate but he wants to appease his wife more
55:17
than he cares about his daughter so just initially what we can say with that is
55:22
the witch had that these were completely narcissistic
55:27
parents were not appropriate for this girl and she was going to bring this girl up um with and I will explain this
55:35
in a minute with education and culture and with agency so the reason why I say that is
55:42
because she takes this girl she secludes her in a tower but what's in the tower and the versions We don't usually read
55:49
the tower is filled with books and the tower is filled with we
55:55
and music and all these different ways for Rapunzel to expand and to develop all of
56:02
her skills and so she's in this Tower because she is beautiful and she would get unwanted attention and the witch
56:09
does not want her to feel that her beauty is what she need needs to Value
56:16
herself by but rather her intelligence and her musical skills and her craft you
56:21
know the skills that she can make things with the witch wants her secluded so that she learns that what is inside of
56:28
her is more important than her actual physical Beauty so it's another way of seeing the story I love the story more
56:35
because of these other versions and I appreciate the witch I mean she's still not the nicest person in the world but
56:41
her underlying goals her motives are to make sure that this girl
56:49
Valu herself her insides instead of just her the exterior and she's not herself
56:57
that's why I love the story about Rapunzel so much so where are these different
57:03
versions coming from where are the origins of um these different fairy
57:12
tales well most of these books here um yeah um when I do webinars for
57:23
Publishers they want me to have books behind me because they say that it looks like I'm more professional but what most
57:28
people don't know is most of these books are fairy tales and they're just hundreds of them these versions come from thousands
57:35
of years ago when I was doing my doctorate I found old Chinese versions Japanese versions Welsh versions
57:42
everything has past versions there's um let me see this book which is the types
57:48
of international folktales and I had the honor of meeting this author Hans yorg Uther these are two volumes that have
57:58
hundreds and thousands of different versions in them so what I did my thesis
58:03
encouraged me to do is to read as many different versions as possible because
58:09
the most recent versions are filtered through what Society is accepting now
58:15
and that's fine if you want to read a fairy tale to your children now but if you want to research it what we need to
58:21
know is the underlying message so these ver
58:27
as I say you can have a Cinderella version now the Walt Disney version but
58:33
if you go back to the Grims version the two steps sisters in the Walt Disney version for instance you have the two
58:40
step sisters who tried to put their foot in the shoe but it didn't fit and we just see them you know trying in the
58:46
Grandma's version the stepmother cut off one of the toes of one of her daughters
58:51
and she cut off one of the heels of the other daughter so that they would fit into the shoe and you know there's blood
58:56
spreading all over the place those aren't the versions that we really want to think about because what we want we
59:02
think about a fairy tale now is oh what's this sweet little story we can tell our children so they'll go to sleep
59:09
that's not going to do it if you have blood spreading out all over the place because these girls have their you know
59:14
appendages being chopped off but for instance in Asian versions of the same
59:21
story you'll have the witch is a monster fish because in Japan for instance you
59:28
have much more contact with water so the the car the archetypes are different
59:34
forms which is also fascinating but again it's just that there's there are different ways that
59:41
things happen depending on the society when that story was developed and
59:48
told and so what is your thoughts what are your
59:53
thoughts about the different messages that are
59:59
being portrayed or or uh yeah messaged to society through
1:00:07
the different tellings are are we trying to change how we perceive the story and
1:00:15
are we changing what message the children or adults should be garnering
1:00:20
from these stories what what what are your thoughts about that
1:00:28
well it's interesting because I don't think I had a conclusion until you just asked me that and what I see is that the
1:00:34
easier and more black and white you know less Nuance the story is the easier it
1:00:39
is to swallow and the less that we have to analyze and so in a crazy kind of
1:00:47
world it's easier to see and this is what's happening politically and again I'm not political but since we were
1:00:53
talking about this in this world we're seeing so many more black and white government part governmental parties and
1:01:00
it's so much easier to say oh I hate you because you're part of that party and I
1:01:06
only will trust people who are part of my political party that's not going to help
1:01:12
us I have the tendency to do that as well but that's not going to find connection and if we go back to the one
1:01:18
or celebrations what I am really big about doing is finding connections so
1:01:24
the versions today of fairy tales why do we like Walt Disney so much because it makes us happy in a really crazy world
1:01:31
things always work out well people always ask me why I like Hollywood movies because they always
1:01:38
work out well you know I have enough in my life that is so uncertain let me watch a movie that turns out well and
1:01:45
I'm good to go if I need to watch a movie where there's just two more
1:01:50
questions at the end I don't need to turn on the TV or go to the Cinema you know so I'm not saying that it's a bad
1:01:57
thing it's something we need to recognize what is it your question is amazing what is it that we're looking
1:02:03
for in these stories me I'm look and looking for
1:02:09
hidden meaning that will help me become a person that is more accepting more empathetic and and be able to connect
1:02:16
more if we could all do that that would be amazing what about you Vanessa what
1:02:21
do you think you're looking for in these fairy tales um you have three children right what
1:02:27
are you looking for in fairy tales well it depends on if I'm reading them to them or to myself because I would not
1:02:34
want to read the original Grim fairy tale of Cinderella where you know the stepsisters are cutting off their their
1:02:41
limbs um because I that feels traumatizing to me and I I feel like
1:02:46
there's enough trauma in the world that I don't need to expose my children to to more Gore and violence than is necessary
1:02:55
um but I I do when I when I read fairy tales I am always
1:03:03
curious about what the intention is and if there was an intention to begin with
1:03:09
because you know a the Grim fairy tales my understanding of fairy tales and
1:03:15
folktales is folktales were orally told tales that were passed on through generations and they changed with the
1:03:21
tellers right and so when the GM Brothers went around Germany they
1:03:27
collected all of these folktales and they put them together in in a collection and they called them fairy tales and today it's you know there's a
1:03:36
there's lot of blurry lines but a lot of times people say that fairy tales are written by an author so you know there's
1:03:43
rather than like them coming from oral fairy tales oral oral tellings but it's
1:03:49
you know there's a lot of blurring between those lines it's not it's not clear cut black and white like you were
1:03:55
talking about before but
1:04:00
I I I forgot what the question was I I I I feel like there
1:04:07
is things that we are we're supposed to get from these stories and that the
1:04:15
tellers or authors are wanting us to
1:04:20
uh accept about either ourselves or societ or our roles and um I as well personally
1:04:29
enjoy looking for those those messages and um what the people of those times
1:04:37
were thinking and how our our thought processes have changed as well and so
1:04:44
um yes that that's what I that's what I look for when I'm reading all of these these Tales these folk tales I me
1:04:51
Vanessa if you think I mean well I think simply I think part of what
1:04:58
you're asking me is one thing we didn't really address and where some of the let's say fairy tales in the medieval
1:05:04
times and we can talk about Hansel and grle and you think about these two little um children who were sent away
1:05:10
from the house that actually happened that actually happened there was not enough food and there wasn't enough
1:05:17
money to buy to take care of children at that time there was no um there was no
1:05:23
birth control so if you had had children that you couldn't support people
1:05:30
actually left their in the woods now wouldn't it be nice to think that you left your child in the woods and they
1:05:35
found this incredible candy house there and they were taken care of afterwards that's a gorgeous thought if you think
1:05:41
about medieval times and it was there was no there were no pleasantries there was no technology so it was difficult to
1:05:47
wash clothes and it was difficult to light fires and it was difficult to get water so wouldn't it be wonderful if you
1:05:53
have these little dwnd or or elves or Little Helpers to take care of and clean the house and make all the food for you
1:05:59
so there are those fairy tales and it's just it's a way of imagining a world
1:06:05
that's easier and it's also a statement about the nobility and the injustices
1:06:11
and you know the feudal system and it's venting in a safe way you were killed if
1:06:16
you went to Noble and said you're being very injust and you were killed if you were hunting on someone's land they they
1:06:24
decided it was their land when you know it was woods and there were animals
1:06:29
there and I'm a vegan so I'm not really crazy about the hunting idea but you understand what I'm talking about so it was a way for storytellers to vent and
1:06:36
it was a way of people to be in around a community and listen to these and laugh
1:06:43
about the injustices and feel that there was a way to sort of get your emotions
1:06:48
out in a little bit of a safer way than than what you really wanted to do and that was storm the kingdom or storm the
1:06:54
nobility's house right absolutely and that is really what
1:07:00
you were trying to do you started another podcast called fairy tale flip is that right where you are really
1:07:06
looking at the fairy tales in this
1:07:12
manner yes and I'm not sure if I'm going to continue it I love doing it but um I
1:07:18
really work well with someone like you asking me questions and then I can respond to them if it's just me sitting
1:07:24
in front of the camera I go off on tangent thinking I know what I want to
1:07:29
say but I'm going off on a tangent I'm not sure if my listeners are going to follow me so I'm going to Contin I'm
1:07:35
gonna think about continuing it I really am passionate about my doorway to
1:07:42
learning podcast which is talking to Educators and commenting on education but yes again you have asked me
1:07:48
questions about fairy tales and all once again they're just rolling through my head I get so excited about it and I'm
1:07:54
I'll have to make a decision maybe you and I will work on fairy tale flip Friday we'll see maybe
1:08:02
maybe well yeah so I know we covered a lot and there's probably a lot more to cover but it is is there anything else
1:08:08
that you um feel that we we
1:08:16
missed I I I mentioned this before your questions are so
1:08:24
insightful and they're so inclusive
1:08:29
and there wasn't anything that I thought missing so hopefully we everything really wanted to ask exploring things
1:08:37
that we often don't feel appreciate this
1:08:46
whole and I'm going back to H and you're giving other people the opportunity to
1:08:52
explore or different perspective of of an idea
1:08:58
that you probably have an opinion on but you are just very open so I really appreciate this whole um space that
1:09:04
you've created well thank you I really appreciate that and I I really
1:09:10
appreciate you coming on the show and you know talking about all of these different elements that you are are
1:09:17
working on because it's you know exactly what we are are are looking for at um
1:09:23
Fabrica fol so thank you so much for joining us
1:09:29
Donna thank you so much Vanessa will talk again soon hopefully and your listeners thank you all for considering
1:09:35
all these ideas and thank you folksy folks all the links that we talked about today will be
1:09:41
at our our my website Fabrica focl or.com um including the PDF that Donna
1:09:47
is going uh to gift everyone um as a
1:09:53
gift for for listening today and and we want to know what your thoughts are what
1:09:59
did you take away from today's conversation do you have you read old
1:10:04
fairy tales and have you seen the witch actually being the heroine
1:10:09
whether rather than being the the villain and what winter festival sounds
1:10:15
fun to you what winter celebration uh sounds like it touches your heart we want to hear from you and
1:10:22
continue that convers either on our YouTube channel where you can comment down below or on our
1:10:28
Facebook community group page where you can comment and tell us your thoughts about the most recent episode um so we I
1:10:37
really enjoy hearing audience feedback so I really encourage you uh to continue that conversation there and if you are
1:10:44
enjoying this show Please Subscribe and follow us whether that's on YouTube or if you're listening on your favorite
1:10:50
podcasting platform we're also on social media we're on Instagram we're on Facebook and we're sometimes on Twitter
1:10:56
X I just call it Twitter X because no one really calls it X um so thanks so
1:11:02
much for joining us H once again my name is Vanessa y Rogers and until next time
1:11:07
keep the folk alive