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Fabric of Folklore
Folktales can be strange, mystical, macabre and intriguing. Join us as we explore the stories, culture and people behind the folklore. We go beyond retelling the legends, myths and fairy tales of old. We look at the story behind the lore, behind the songs and traditions to understand more about what they mean, and their importance. These stories, many originating as oral histories, inform us of what it means to be human; what it means to be an integral part of this Earth. Stories of magic and wonder bind us. They connect us through invisible strands, like the gossamer fibers of a spiders web. Folktales have the power to demonstrate how, although we live in drastically different locals, our hearts and minds beat as one human race. We are weaving the fabrics of our past and present stories, to help us better understand ourselves and to awaken us to a more compassionate and caring world community. As we explore the meaning of existence through folklore we hope to inspire future generations to lead with love and understanding.
Fabric of Folklore
Episode 39: Myth Storytelling in Grief Circles with Sabrina Fletcher TFMR Doula
How can mythology and folklore be a tool for healing? In episode 39, Sabrina Fletcher, a bereavement doula incorporates myth storytelling in her grief circles for pregnancy loss, drawing on ancient stories, myths, and archetypes to facilitate healing. These narratives can act as reminders that we are not alone in our experiences. Inspired by her own loss and the lack of community support, Sabrina became a doula, offering support to others in their grief. We delve into how rituals and folktales are healing. We explore a few folktales such as Persephone's descent into the underworld (symbolizing grief) and La Llorona (a crying woman associated with loss) and how she uses them in her work. Don't miss this fascinating episode!
Links:
Grief Circle Enrollment :http://www.thetfmrdoula.com/ascend-apply
The TFMR Doula Website: http://thetfmrdoula.com/
Apply for TFMR FB group : https://www.thetfmrdoula.com/facebookgroup.html
The lack of mourning rituals : https://www.thetfmrdoula.com/writings/the-lack-of-mourning-rituals
Time Stamps
Folklore and its relevance to personal healing 02:43
Creating a safe space for grief and tough emotions 09:29
Questions and guidance for supporting grieving individuals 11:00
Following the lead of the grieving individual 17:00
Incorporating folktales into the healing process 24:01
Rituals and storytelling in grief circles 29:50
Structure of grief circles 42:05
Lighting candles and sharing personal experiences 42:15
Journaling prompts and writing breaks 44:16
Exploring different stories and their significance 46:15
Stories of the younger goddesses Persephone 48:10
The importance of storytelling in the healing process 59:50
Validation of grief and tough emotions in stories 1:04
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Fabric of Folklore website
Welcome, welcome, folksy folks. Welcome to fabric of Folklore. I am your hostess, Vanessa Y. Rogers, and this is the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of folklore. And this podcast is for those people who are curious, those who love learning about other cultures, as well as discovering fun, little known secrets about their own culture. Folklore is not just folk tales. It encompasses so much more. It encompasses jokes, slang words that make you feel old or make you feel young, depending on what slang words you're listening to. Folk art, music, poetry. Understanding folklore can amuse, it can educate, it can bind community, form, identity, and as we're going to be talking about today, has the power to heal.
Vanessa
·
00:56
We had a guest recently, come on, Jack Zeitz, and he really looks at how fairy tales specifically have cultural and social and political impact on our daily lives, and he really looks at how it is relevant. Folklore in general is relevant today's modern world. And so I have this really great quote that he said. Hans on Gretel is a fascinating tale because it's a tale about child abandonment. It's also a very important tale because it signals that something is wrong, because we're abandoning children and abusing and leaving them alone. You can see it at the borders in your Texas from Mexico, adults leaving their children so that they can find a way in America to have a better life, or that's their dream. The tale of Hanzo and Gretel is still a memetic, valid tale that helps us.
Vanessa
·
01:45
If we look at these tales carefully, they can empower us to deal with difficult situations in our own lives. And that's what we're really doing here on Fabrica folklore. We are looking at folklore and seeing how it's relevant to your life today. So if that sounds like a podcast that you are interested in following, make sure that you hit that subscribe button. Whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcasting platform, hit that subscribe button right now so that you make sure that you get your notifications every week when our show drops. We have a really great show for you today. Our guest is Sabrina Fletcher. She is a bereavement doula at the TFMR Doula. She helps bereaved parents in the aftermath of poor prenatal maternal perinatal diagnosis and the heartbreaking decision to terminate a wanted pregnancy.
Vanessa
·
02:38
She uses myth storytelling in her grief circles that she runs for pregnancy loss. She's going to be talking about how these ancient stories, myths and archetypes can be used in the healing process. So thank you so much for joining us today, Sabrina.
Sabrina
·
02:53
Thank you so much, Vanessa. I'm so excited to be here.
Vanessa
·
02:56
Well, can you tell us a little bit about your journey? How did you become the TFMR doula?
Sabrina
·
03:04
How did that happen? It's part of my story, too. So I had to terminate a very wanted pregnancy in 2018. She was going to be our second baby. I mean, I still do consider her our second baby. And we found out during around 13 weeks that she was very sick. In the ultrasound that we did at that time, she had what they call hydrops, which is swelling underneath the skin and eventually can be swelling in the brain, in the organs. And if it's extreme enough, the lungs don't develop. So she had a very poor outcome. And I remember the doctor saying, if you continue the pregnancy, you need to now see me every week. This is a high risk pregnancy. And he also brought up termination as an option, very kindly. And he explained everything that he was seeing.
Sabrina
·
04:20
And there were other things that were seeing on the ultrasound as well. And all of those things combined, she just had a very poor chance of surviving. And I also found out that this condition, this swelling, hydrops, can eventually turn into a condition in the mother, in the pregnant person. So I would have been at risk if I would have continued the pregnancy to have the same sort of swelling in my organs, which they call mirror syndrome. So our decision to terminate the pregnancy was twofold. It was for our baby's health, and it was also for my health.
Vanessa
·
05:07
I'm very sorry. I know that is just such a hard decision to have to make. I can't imagine having to do that.
Sabrina
·
05:16
Yeah. It really is the most horrific thing that's happened to me in my life. I would say the hardest thing that I've been through, because we wanted this baby. We named her. Some people who are farther along in their pregnancies when they find out something is deathly wrong or something is wrong with them. They have cribs, they have a baby shower. They have a baby shower set up. They have already set up their maternity leave with work. It's just so heartbreaking.
Vanessa
·
05:55
And so how did you end up becoming? Were you already a doula before this happened?
Sabrina
·
06:02
I wasn't, but I always had in mind that I wanted to. I thought when my kids are a little bit bigger, then I think I want to go into being a doula and being with pregnant people and helping them through the birth or postpartum or even in pregnancy or childbirth classes or something like that. Something in that realm. I was interested in it. But as I was sitting in the clinic, because that's another part of my story that's very hard, is that I didn't lose my baby on a maternity or gynecological ward. I lost my baby in an abortion clinic. And they really didn't know what to do with us. They really didn't know what to do with our grief and our expressions of emotion. I mean, we really were like a miscarriage or a stillbirth patient. That's how we should have been treated.
Sabrina
·
07:01
And I say we. My husband was there with me, well, in the moments that they allowed him to be. So this all happened in an abortion clinic. And I remember sitting alone in pre op, alone, and thinking, where is my doula? Where is the person who can be here by my side and say, I'm sorry for your loss, or be the go between the nurses and me? Do the emotional care. A doula is not a medical. They're not medical staff, but they're there to bring you water or to check with the nurse or to call someone if you need help, or all the different arrangements with a bereavement doula. There are a lot of arrangements that we can also help with. Funerals or getting ashes, things like that. And I remember being so alone and thinking, where is she?
Sabrina
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07:54
And also then sort of simultaneously realizing, oh, this is the type of doula that I would like to because I don't want people to feel so alone.
Vanessa
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08:09
Yeah, absolutely. And so did you end up finding any grief circles that were helpful for you, or were they just incredibly learning and then you took from them what you needed and moved towards something that was more helpful?
Sabrina
·
08:26
Yeah. At the time, in 2018, there were just a few online forums. There was a very helpful Facebook group that's still active, ending a wanted pregnancy. I always recommend their group. I run a group now, too, TFMR support circle. But I was looking for more. I was looking for places where I could actually interact, live or virtually. And that's why I created these grief circles. I had joined some women's circles, I suppose. I guess they would be considered women's circles or, like, spiritual circles. I liked the feeling of being in that space and hearing other people's stories, being able to share my story, just being held in the circle, just entering into circle space and feeling the ceremony and the ritual aspect.
Sabrina
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09:29
Perhaps we all set an intention at the beginning of the circle, or in my circles, we all light our candles and we say a little something at the beginning of the circle, just creating that space when there's really no space for grief and tough emotions and trauma, processes that ask for time, they ask for time and space. And that's what I went looking for, and I didn't find. And then I remember at the time, I think I just had Instagram. So I remember asking the community on Instagram, what should I focus on? Should I really focus on more one services for all of you so that, you know, come and see me as a doula, one and really get that private support? Or do you all want groups? And it was, like, unanimous. There's groups, groups.
Sabrina
·
10:34
And then when I started my Facebook group and I posted that it was open, people were just, like, throwing their information at me. They're like, yes, we want more groups. We want more spaces. We want places where we can interact and tell our stories and ask questions and get feedback and share. I'm still thinking about my baby, or my anniversary is coming up, or all these different things. There are a lot of questions that come grief. There are a lot of questions that come up with pregnancy loss. And then there's this added layer when it needs to be a decision. I say that in quotes, it's a medical decision, and yet it was never a decision of any of ours to lose a baby. That isn't the true decision.
Vanessa
·
11:32
So what does the TFMR stand for? Can you.
Sabrina
·
11:36
Yeah. Thanks for asking. It stands for termination for medical reasons.
Vanessa
·
11:44
Okay.
Sabrina
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11:44
So there are a bunch of different terms that people use. This one seems to be the most commonly used currently. The terms could shift. They could change. Before, I think it was called therapeutic abortion. Some people even still use that term. Other people call it, there's termination of pregnancy for fetal anomaly, although that one doesn't encompass when it's for the pregnant person's health, which is maybe one in five. Two in five of the situations is because of some sort of condition that the pregnant person has.
Vanessa
·
12:39
And so I think I had read that you didn't feel included in some grief circles for. Can you describe that a little bit about how they just weren't right fits?
Sabrina
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12:57
Yeah. So the abortion topic, it ebbs and flows in, I don't know, current affairs discourse or whatever you want to call it, or the news. And there are cycles, and sometimes around election seasons, it can get noisier and even more polarized and very negative. And in some pregnancy loss spaces. I've since left places like that. But they would say things like, no post about abortion. It's like, well, if I can't post about abortion, then I can't post about my pregnancy loss because that is a big part of my pregnancy loss.
Sabrina
·
13:41
And that's just one example of not feeling welcome and feeling like part of my story needs to be covered up or hidden or not talked about so that I can get the care that I need, which is for a lot of people, and for me, too, talking with other people who have been through pregnancy loss of all kinds. But I decided to focus specifically on TFMR, on termination for medical reasons, so that we would have this safe space to really go into the issues that come up with this type of pregnancy loss.
Vanessa
·
14:19
And you were talking about questions. What kind of questions come up?
Sabrina
·
14:24
Oh, so many. I think there are a lot in the postpartum period, especially if we're seen in an abortion clinic, because the majority of abortions are lifestyle and they happen earlier. So perhaps the postpartum period is not as strong. Although I have heard people go through early pregnancy loss and it still hits really hard. But for some reason, it's not shared with us that you will feel very postpartum. Your milk could come in, you may have hot flashes, changes in temperature, the moods or the feelings and everything that comes along with all of the hormones. And there's a drop at around 21 days after any sort of pregnancy loss or abortion of any kind, and it's just not shared. So people have these questions like, why am I feeling this way? Or when is this going to end?
Sabrina
·
15:31
Or how long will I feel this? Or is this going to happen? Or why did this happen? And I think the second most common besides physical questions are around emotions and relationships. My sister in law says this or that, or my mother is saying, give her clothes away because you need to move on. And I don't know how to handle this situation. I don't know what to say to her. I don't know if I'm ready to give the clothes away. What should I do? So there are lots of questions like that or between partners of any gender. My partner who wasn't carrying the baby, they're already back to work, and they just dove into work and they don't want to talk about it, and they don't even want me to name the baby. What should I do? So many questions. So many questions.
Vanessa
·
16:22
And then there's the added benefit, well, of friends and family who not benefit, but friends and family who are at a loss to what to say. And I am assuming that they're wanting to be helpful, but a lot of times their will meaning comments and suggestions just come off as hurtful. Are there things that you suggest to outside friends and family how to respond?
Sabrina
·
16:52
Yeah, it's a really tough situation. Right. Because we've never been taught how to handle our own grief, so it's even harder to sit beside someone and know how to be there for them in their grief. I would say to someone who wants to show up for someone else who has lost a baby for any reason, to follow their lead. Follow their lead. So if they use the term baby or if they use their baby's name, then use their baby's name as well. If they talk about anniversary, try and remember that date and then check in on them on that date. If they bring up how hard things are at work, try and mirror back. Yeah, that sounds really hard. So really follow the person who is grieving, follow their lead.
Sabrina
·
17:59
And also, I would say this is a different kind of myth, but try and break through that myth that we have that people want to be left alone. And maybe we shouldn't bring it up because it'll make them sadder. That is a myth. We are always sad. It is a heartbreaking, sad experience. There's also a lot of love because it's still a child or a baby who is going to be in our family. But you bringing it up feels more heartwarming than devastating. And it can feel even more devastating when people don't ever bring it up. And I know that's really hard. It's hard on both sides to figure out when should I say? What should I say? It's hard for me, too.
Sabrina
·
18:57
And I'm a bereavement doula, and I even still feel like I fail people in my life by not talking about their loved one or their baby enough.
Vanessa
·
19:08
But it's hard.
Sabrina
·
19:09
Oh, it's so hard. I mean, if the only thing you say is, I don't know what to say, but I'm here for you. That's so much. That means so much.
Vanessa
·
19:18
That's great advice. So your grief circles, are they only for women or are they also for men?
Sabrina
·
19:27
They are primarily for the people who have birthed the child. So most people do identify as women. In my groups, I have had some couples who have almost joined the partner being male. They're definitely welcome. But I would say that, yeah, primarily the people who are in my free Facebook space, because I consider that a circle, too. That's like a broader, open circle. Mostly women. And in my smaller groups, in my grief circles, yeah, mostly women as well. It's really hard on the person who births the baby. And loses the baby. There's this physical connection, and sometimes it's not seen by others around us, and that makes it even harder. It's this unseen, invisible grief.
Vanessa
·
20:27
Right.
Sabrina
·
20:27
And so isolating.
Vanessa
·
20:30
Can you talk a little bit about some statistics around pregnancy loss and TFMR pregnancy loss? Because I know that it's a lot more common than is believed in general society.
Sabrina
·
20:44
Yeah, it really is. The statistic that I see a lot is one in four pregnancies will end in pregnancy, loss of any kind. And that could include ectopic, that could include an early miscarriage, that also includes later stillbirth. I think the stillbirth numbers are around one in 160 pregnancies, although I don't know if that's primarily more for people who are white, because I know that stillbirth is even more common in people of color. So it's an even higher number, unfortunately.
Vanessa
·
21:28
But it's important to be aware of that. It's so much more common than people are aware of. So that this is touching. Probably someone that you.
Sabrina
·
21:37
Yeah, yeah. There was another study that came out of Europe. I think they combined some data between some european countries and the UK, and the statistics were shocking that TFMR. So a termination for medical reasons. So these are wanted pregnancies. This is that people are experiencing it as pregnancy loss is three times more common than stillbirth. So that number comes out to one in 50 pregnancies, one in 55 pregnancies, which is really high.
Vanessa
·
22:20
Yeah. And so do you feel like that number is probably accurate in the US as well, or is it just. In european countries?
Sabrina
·
22:33
It could be just a touch lower because of the laws. So some people may now be forced to carry sick pregnancies to term or until their natural end.
Vanessa
·
22:48
Right.
Sabrina
·
22:49
Because of laws. But people are still traveling or people are still finding the doctors who will see it as the exception to the law. Because in some states, there are exceptions for this type of abortion for a termination. Medical reasons? When there's a medical reason.
Vanessa
·
23:12
I'm in Texas, but I haven't really been following what laws have been put in place after they did ban abortions. I don't know if they are allowing that or if people have to travel to the next states. I wouldn't imagine that Louisiana would have better laws than we would.
Sabrina
·
23:32
No, Louisiana people have to leave that state, too. And I know that there was recently that big court case. So as of now, November 2023 in Texas, I think even in cases of medical necessity, you would be hard pressed to find doctors who would sign off on that because they're very afraid of losing their license.
Vanessa
·
24:01
Okay.
Sabrina
·
24:05
It brings up a lot. It brings up death and mortality and quality of life and a lot of really big, really heavy, even ethical questions, which is why I really like to defer to these ancient old stories, because these are topics that we've been trying to figure out and wrap our heads around for eons. We've been trying to figure out, what does it mean pregnancy? What is the death and rebirth even throughout our life? What does that feel like? Or what does it mean that the uterus sheds? And there's basically, like, this little death every month? What are these cycles? And what happens when we do lose a child, when there is this out of order death? How do we deal with that huge grief and that huge hole in our lives?
Sabrina
·
25:10
And so the stories that I source from, I choose them based around all of those themes, because it's not talked.
Vanessa
·
25:20
About, because it's not just a modern day thing that we've been having to deal with. It started at the beginning of humankind, right?
Sabrina
·
25:31
Yeah. Life and death has always been two sides of the same coin. And it used to be so much closer, like, more tangible. But now with modern funeral services and the hospital, it's, like, sanitized and set apart. And so then we don't see it as much, but it's not that it's not happening. We just don't see it as much.
Vanessa
·
25:57
How were people closer to it? Did it just happen more frequently, or were they more involved in the funeral processing?
Sabrina
·
26:05
Well, I live in Mexico, so I'm originally from California, and here in Mexico, I think they're still more connected to the older death rights. So the person dies many times in their home. So this is not as common in the US. Right. So the death is actually happening in the home as well. And then they bring in the coffin, and then they have their. I'm only thinking of the word in Spanish. Awake. Wake. They have the wake, right, for up to three days. So they're all there. And people come and there's food that's served, and the person that has died is there. So it's closer. You see it. And here in the town that I live, then they carry the coffins to the graveyard, to the cemetery, and there's a procession and traffic stops. There's reverence.
Sabrina
·
27:23
They, you know, they have music, they have live bands that follow in the procession. So it's closer. You can see it. You can participate in it. You can have your grief seen. You see other people mourning. It's a public display. And I think we've gotten away from that. So it's gotten even more scary, right? Because it is scary. No one wants to think about their own death. You definitely don't want to think about your child dying. You don't want to think about losing a baby. You don't want to think about having to make the decision to end your baby's life. No one wants to think about it. I mean, I remember when I went searching back in some of the pregnancy books that I had that one that's super common, like, what to expect when you're expecting or whatever.
Sabrina
·
28:25
There was, like one paragraph in the whole entire Tome, so it's like this big. And there was one paragraph about prenatal testing. There was one paragraph about pregnancy loss. And, like, oh, after the first trimester, it's just not that common. And that's it. I mean, this is a big part of pregnancy. Pregnancy loss is a huge part of pregnancy. And many people's fertility journeys and motherhood and parenthood journeys could be up to one in three. Now that we have at home testing. Pee on a stick, people can see they're like, two days pregnant, right? Or five days pregnant or nine days pregnant. And then sometimes they lose those pregnancies. They can see the line getting less and less dark as the days go by if they do multiple tests. And that's losing a baby as well, losing an embryo.
Sabrina
·
29:37
It's here, but it's not here. It's all around us, and yet it's hidden.
Vanessa
·
29:43
And people don't talk about it out in the open.
Sabrina
·
29:47
No, it's not polite dinner conversation.
Vanessa
·
29:52
So talk to us about the rituals. What are the importance of rituals? You were kind of talking about that. But can you explain a little bit more about why we should have rituals for things like grief.
Sabrina
·
30:09
Especially for pregnancy loss? Rituals can be so healing because it's an outward, visible expression of what we've been through that is so private and personal and intimate and inward. Some people have a DNC where the baby or the fetus is removed, or DNE. There are different names, or they also call it surgical termination. But then you don't see the baby, right. You don't see, like, this grief ritual that I was talking about that is very common here in Mexico with the three day wake. And it's seen. It's there. There's a coffin, there's a burial. And with pregnancy loss, oftentimes there's no burial. Maybe some people get ashes, or maybe there's, like, a mass cremation that happens for all the baby's remains. I think in some places they're getting better at ritualizing that.
Sabrina
·
31:26
So there are some hospitals where they scatter the ashes in a garden, and they say, this is our memorial garden. And maybe they have one day a month where they do the ceremony, and they invite all the families who have lost a baby over the last month or even early pregnancy, and they say, come to this service, come to this memorial, come to this ritual. But sometimes there may not be a public ritual like that. So then it's really then on us to make private rituals, which can be as simple as maybe there's a color that you associate with your baby or with that pregnancy. Maybe most of the pregnancy happened over fall. So you think about the color orange, and so you have an orange candle, and you light that candle when you want to remember your baby.
Sabrina
·
32:28
Just little rituals like that can be so healing and soothing, and I think it's very important that it's something that you can touch. So even if it's just writing or, like, with water, I mean, I really like to work with the elements. I help my members come up with different ideas with what works for them and their families and their religious background and everything.
Vanessa
·
32:59
Do you have people from different, a lot of diversity in backgrounds for their religious faiths?
Sabrina
·
33:06
Yeah. It does not discriminate. TFMR does not care what religion you practice. It still happens in all religions and atheists, all faiths, all philosophies. That can be really tough.
Vanessa
·
33:29
Yeah. What are some of the unique traditions that you've seen people come up with, or rituals, rather?
Sabrina
·
33:38
Oh, I have a few that I'd love to share. So I shared in one of my grief circles that, and I share this publicly, too, that I did not get my baby's ashes, but I still wanted to have a scattering of the ashes. So on the day, that would have been her due date, and due dates can feel even more heavy for TFMR, because if I would have continued the pregnancy, she could have been born on this day, maybe born and died on this day, or born. And then I don't know what procedures she may have had to go through, but still, it's a date that held a lot of significance. So on that day, I went to the beach, and I gathered up sand as, like, a metaphor, a symbol to symbolize her ashes, and I scattered them into the sea.
Sabrina
·
34:41
So I did a symbolic ashes scattering. And one of my grief members was very inspired by this story. And I think she had rose bushes, she associates roses with her baby, and so she collected the dirt from the rose bushes because she also didn't get ashes, but she collected the dirt from around the rose bushes, and she considers those her baby's ashes. I don't know if she also scattered them or if maybe she keeps them as well. Some people like to. If they do get ashes, then they make jewelry, so you can get it set into a ring or into a necklace. I have another grief circle member who also did not get ashes but wanted to have some sort of. What she called it was like a proper burial.
Sabrina
·
35:47
So she wrote her baby's names on pieces of paper, and when she went to a very beautiful place on vacation one time, she buried them in this spot that she thought was fitting for her babies. Sad, but also very touching because there's a lot of love, there's a lot of intention in these rituals.
Vanessa
·
36:17
I love that. When I was reading about rituals on your website, it brought to mind that there are a lot of rituals around pregnancy, and you expect to see those rituals like a baby shower and once the baby comes, like a meal train or a gender reveal party. All those types of rituals are common and we see them, but it's just not as common to see the rituals of loss as much. It just reminded me that we have rituals in place for different things. But it's harder when it's around grief, I think sometimes.
Sabrina
·
36:56
Yeah. Harder. Yeah. What would you say feels harder?
Vanessa
·
37:04
You don't know how people will react where there's not that expectation, I guess, of when are you going to have your gender reveal party? You're not going to say, so when are you going to have. I don't know. I feel like in general, grief is just harder to know how to navigate.
Sabrina
·
37:30
Yeah. For everyone. Right.
Vanessa
·
37:32
For everyone and for everything. Yeah. Regardless if they're old or young. A lot of times people like you were saying before, we're not really taught how to handle grief well. And I recently lost my father, and I didn't do it this year, but I wanted to start the tradition of dia de los Muertos in our family to try and have an opportunity to talk about him, at least on a yearly basis with our children. But you have to be intentional and start those traditions and set aside time that you know is going to not necessarily be a happy time.
Sabrina
·
38:23
Yeah. It can feel really hard to move into that space, even though you may know. Yeah, I know this would be healing, like you're saying, to share with your children. I know this would be a way to honor his memory. I know, I want to do this. And yet the setting up of it, I so feel that. So we do an altar, since I live in Mexico and my husband is mexican, and my kids are growing up here, bicultural, and so they really wanted the altar. But I just kept saying, I can't set it up today. I can't set it up yet today. I can't set it up yet today, because I knew all of the emotions that would come up just in the setting up of the altar.
Vanessa
·
39:14
Yeah, absolutely. All right, so let's talk about the folktales, what folktales you use. Can you talk about, how did you start incorporating folktales into healing? Did it come naturally or did you discover it somehow?
Sabrina
·
39:33
I went looking for every and all stories that could help. So I wanted to read all the stories that I could possibly find on TFMR pregnancy loss. I wanted to read all the books, the anthologies of a bunch of different people's stories on all types of pregnancy loss. And I read a bunch of books on grief. And they would also reference older texts, like Macbeth is mentioned a lot in grief because of the deaths that happen in that story and the expressions of grief in that story. And so I just kept going and I kept going. And I wanted to learn more about cross cultural rituals because I thought, what are mine? What's my background? I guess maybe in the past, maybe irish, british, would we have had a wake as well? But what about pregnancy loss? I was looking everywhere.
Sabrina
·
40:44
I wanted to read about all over the world, all the different things that different people do just to find some solace. Like, what do people do? How do they get through this? And so I also found the different myth stories and dark goddess, because there's the death side and the hidden side of things with pregnancy and abortion and death and all of those things that touch all of us, and yet we don't talk about it. I found solace in a lot of what would be considered the dark goddess stories. And I knew even before I created the circles that this was going to be a key element. Story had to be story. There was no other way around it, right? And in each grief circle, we build up to whatever the story that I'm going to tell that day is.
Sabrina
·
41:57
So I tell the story towards the end of the circle.
Vanessa
·
42:02
Okay, can you walk us through how you use it? How do you run these grief circles? What is your ritual in them?
Sabrina
·
42:11
So there are lots of rituals. Like I mentioned earlier, we start by lighting our candles, which brings. I know I keep using this word but solace. It's a light in the darkness, in the grief. And there's nothing wrong with darkness. There's nothing wrong with grief, but we also do want to bring a little bit of light to it. And then people share a couple sentences like, I am a mother of four, or I'm remembering my baby James today, whatever they want to say as they light their candle. And then we each share, oh, no. We also do meditation or mindfulness. So I bring in, I guess I would call it energy work and mindfulness healing. But it's already in the ritual space. It's already in the ceremonial space. It's already in the circle.
Sabrina
·
43:17
So within the circle, we've opened up this space, and then these different practices happen within the circle. Then I have agreements that I read. So that also helps to consecrate the space in a way. And then we each share individually whatever's going on. If we want to share about a big layer of grief that we've been working through, or something that's going on in a personal relationship or maybe at work, or maybe there's something going on in the broader society that's bringing up an element of our grief. And I love how when we share, there's usually a thread of a couple of different themes that are shared throughout the stories or throughout the shares. And I make journaling prompts for us to write from, through what we're sharing that day. So that's also another ritual. It's very alive. It's very dynamic.
Sabrina
·
44:34
It's coming from what we're sharing that day. It's coming from the energy that we're creating that day in a circle. Of course, I have various different topics that I do want to hit on throughout the programs, because the programs are about three months long. So there are certain topics that I do want to make sure come out, but they can come out in different ways. They may come out in the candlelighting. They may come out in a little bit of art that we do later. They may come out in our personal shares. Maybe it comes out then in the myth or the archetypal story that I tell, but, yeah, so we take a writing break, and then we write, and then we share from our writing.
Sabrina
·
45:19
Or some people may like to draw, some people may like to do poetry, or some people may just need to take a break that day. Everything is also optional, suggested, but optional, which I think is important in grief. It's important in pregnancy loss, especially important when we've been through a TFMR where we had to make this choice. That really wasn't our choice. We didn't want to, but there were things that happened to our body, or even if you're grieving the loss of an adult, it's like, I didn't want that to happen. So I do want to make sure that I bring in autonomy and agency and choice into the circle. So everything is optional. Everything is just a suggestion. Follow your heart. Do what feels good for you that day.
Sabrina
·
46:15
So after we go through all of those activities and we may do one or two more, like some art or poetry or something like that, then I share the myth of the day, and I go in a certain order. I want to take people through.
Vanessa
·
46:37
I.
Sabrina
·
46:38
Guess, the female archetypes of maiden mother and wild woman or crone or wise woman. I want to bring them through. So I start with the stories of the younger goddesses or the younger archetypal people in the stories. I could share that one today.
Vanessa
·
46:59
Yes.
Sabrina
·
46:59
You don't have time to share all of them, but I could share one.
Vanessa
·
47:02
Yeah, go ahead.
Sabrina
·
47:05
So, this story is the reason that I call this grief circle. I call the grief circle. Ascend. So there's an ascent in this story. There is a descent as well, but there's also an ascent, because sometimes we get stuck in the underworld stories. We get stuck in the underworld part. Like, it's very, I don't know, tantalizing. Right. Because we don't talk about it. So sometimes when we look at these underworld stories, a lot of people sort of latch onto that part, like, oh, and then they were in the underworld, and then they were in this part. But in all of the underworld stories that I tell, they also come back up.
Sabrina
·
47:46
So there's also an ascent, which is also hopeful for grief, because we don't want to stay in the underworld like our loved one or our baby has passed on, but we can't stay in that death land. We have to somehow find our way back up. We have to somehow find our way to. So I named the program ascend after this story. It's a pretty common greek myth with Persephone and Demeter or Demeter. People pronounce her name differently. So there are two goddesses in the story, but they're really different faces and different facets of what we each hold in ourself. So the story, it starts with this mother daughter pair, and Demeter is the goddess of the crops and abundance and know. So she's really, like, the backbone of the survival of societies, because if there's no food or if there's no water.
Sabrina
·
48:58
Then to grow the crops. Then the society collapses. So she's a pretty high up, I guess, high up goddess, and she controls and aids in the harvest and all of that. And she has a daughter. Her name is not Persephone yet at this point in the story, her name is. I've seen it as Cora or Cora. So I've seen it as both. And that name, it's really not even a name. Her name is just Maiden. Like, she's Maiden. She hasn't even made a name for herself yet. Right? So she's. She's Cora, and she's like the little goddess nymph of Flowers. And so she's like the flower blossom nymph, maiden. She's living in this forever, eternal spring, and just like La in the flowers.
Sabrina
·
50:02
And there are two ways that this story is told, but I like the version where Corey has agency, where she does make a decision. And I think this is important for anyone who's been through TfMR, because we did have to make a decision. And so at one point, Corey, I imagine her as getting bored with this forever. Spring. Like, it's just spring. This is all there is to life. It's just spring. It's just little flowers. It's just little butterflies and rainbows, like always. Really. I imagine her saying, like, really, mom? This is all I ever get to. She. Her eyes become open to other energies, and she meets someone. She meets Hades, the king or the God of the underworld. So he is like the opposite of Everything that she knows, but it's what she wants to know.
Sabrina
·
51:04
She wants to know the full realm of Everything. She wants to understand both sides of the coin she's pulled to him, and so she goes with him. And in some stories, some of the tellings are that he kidnapped her or took her against her will. So there's that aspect of the r word, but I like the other telling where it's of her will that she goes. But either way, whether she was raptured or whether she decided to know, taken against her will or decided to go, Demeter finds out that she's gone, and she is distraught. She's lost her child. She is now embodying the grieving mother. And I love how this is shown in the story. At this point in the story, she turns the world into a Forever Winter. So it's this FroZen Tundra.
Sabrina
·
52:17
She says, if this is going to happen, if I have to lose my child, all of you are going to feel my grief. All of you are going to feel the depth of my sorrow. Everyone on this planet is going to feel how this is the winter of my soul. Everyone. So the other gods, and perhaps even the humans, they're like, oh, my gosh. We have to figure out how to get out of this big problem. Like, this is a big problem because where are going to come from? Where's the harvest? What happened to all the flowers? What's going on? We got to fix this. And Demeter herself, she wants to fix it, too, but she wants to fix it by getting her daughter back. Of course, as mortals, we don't have that option. We don't have the option of getting our children back.
Sabrina
·
53:10
But these are the gods and goddesses and these archetypal energy stories. I don't know if the other gods come to her and they're like, cut it out. We got to figure out how to get you out of this funk. Right? Or I don't know if she's also going to them and saying, how can I fix this? How can I get her back? Anyway, there's an agreement that they come to between the gods, because she goes searching for how to get her daughter back. And one of the other gods says, well, the thing is, if she has partaken. So if she has taken in which this also, we see this in the Judeo Christian Eve taking in the. Right. So there's that. What would we call that? It's the same similarity. That's not. So. There's a similarity between all of these underworld stories.
Sabrina
·
54:16
Okay, so this God says, you can have your daughter back if she hasn't partaken of the underworld, if she hasn't eaten of the underworld. And Demeter says, okay, so, yeah, let's do that. But right at that moment, right in that story, Cora, who is no longer Cora, she is now Persephone. She also finds out that her mother is trying to make this arrangement, and she says, no, I don't want to leave this place. I don't want to leave this man who's now my husband. I don't want to leave. In some versions of the story, she's also now pregnant. She has definitely partaken of the world. So in that moment, she takes in some people say six, some stories say eight. I like to go with six pomegranate seeds.
Sabrina
·
55:13
If you open up a pomegranate, I mean, even the symbolism in the pomegranate, you open up a pomegranate, there's no other fruit on this planet that has more juicy abundance of seeds. It's definitely a representation of fertile, abundant ovaries. So there's a lot of know. There's these fertility symbols in this. And really what it is Persephone is awakening to mother. So she's moving from maiden to mother. But there's also loss. There's also moving away from your family of origin. There's also loss for the mother, like losing her daughter. And there's also choices. Do I choose to learn more? But then I have to leave behind everything I knew, and we feel this in TFMr. Do I choose to do this? But then I have to leave behind everything I thought was true? I thought, you see two lines, and a baby is born.
Sabrina
·
56:20
I thought, you get through the first trimester, and you're going to have a healthy baby. No. We get to the anatomy scan some people at 2024 weeks, find out something is really wrong, and they have to make this choice. And then we're thrown into the underworld, just like Persephone, but we also choose it. So it's very complicated. Persephone partakes of the underworld, and then Demeter finds out again, and then she's like, okay, well, we got to switch up the agreement here. How can we get out of this? And then the gods say, well, she only took in six pomegranate seeds. So how about if six months out of the year, she is still part of the underworld because she cannot leave.
Sabrina
·
57:11
So, six months out of the year, she is in the underworld, and then six months out of the year, she is in the above earthly realms so that you can be with her. And Demeter and Persephone, they come to this agreement somehow, and they all say, yes. And then Demeter has her daughter return, so then it's springtime again, and then it's summer again, but then six months are up again, and then she loses her daughter again to the underworld. And then it's fall and winter, and then the cycles continue. And this actually helps the crops. This actually helps the harvest. It's the origin of the season story. It's telling of the origin of why we have seasons, but it's also so much more. It's about death and children and losing babies and rebirth and sex and everything.
Sabrina
·
58:14
It's all there, and it's about the stages that we go through in life, as well.
Vanessa
·
58:20
And what kind of reaction do you get from your mamas in the group?
Sabrina
·
58:27
I think sometimes. So that's the first story I tell. Sometimes people are overwhelmed. They're like, man, that's a lot to take in. And I'm also going through it myself. So to hear the story and then reflect on, oh, man, I really am going through an underworld journey right now, or I'm in the six months of the year where I'm way deep in, and I didn't even know that I made this agreement. So it can be a lot to take in. Sometimes people are like, yeah, I don't know. That part of the story was confusing, and all of it is valid. All of it is valid. And sometimes people are just, like, riveted. They're like, yes, this is the story that I needed to hear. This one and the others that I tell, I needed to hear this.
Sabrina
·
59:19
I needed to, like, I relate to Demeter. I want to throw the whole entire earth into an eternal winter as well. Like, feel my grief, everyone. Feel it. Feel it. So there are an abundance of reactions. All of them are welcome in the circle.
Vanessa
·
59:41
And you mentioned earlier that you knew early on that you knew you wanted story to be a big part of your grief circles. Why did you know that? What about stories do you think are important for the healing process?
Sabrina
·
59:57
I knew it. Sorry, I. I knew it. On a soul level. I knew it because when I started studying these stories and when I read a few of them through the lens of this maiden mother, wise woman, going through the stages of life and also having to grieve the end of the last stage, I knew in my soul that it was so important. It was so important to hear that people thousands of years ago were grappling with the same thing, that I really wasn't alone. And that's the sensation that I want to bring to my members. I really want them to know, you're not alone. You're not the only.
Although it felt like in the moment, because I went through this, too, it felt like in the moment when I was having to make this decision that I'm the only mother on this planet who ever had to end a wanted pregnancy and make this horrific decision for my health, for her health. For so many reasons. There are so many reasons, but I felt so alone. Like I'm the only one. How is that possible? And then when I started to read more and more stories, I realized, oh, I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one who's had to go through incredible heartbreak and horrific tragedy.
And it doesn't take away the horrors, but it does help me get through, because I know that there are other people I can go to and I can say, yeah, I'm coming up on the anniversary, or I'm coming up on the due date. And even though it's been six years now, I'm still feeling a lot of things. And they say, yeah, me too. And they say, yeah, I see you and I see you remembering your baby, and I honor your motherhood. And that's really what we need. We need to be seen. It's just like what Demeter was looking for. We wanted to be seen.
Yeah. So what are some of the other folktales you tell? You don't necessarily have to tell them, but you mentioned that there were quite a few that you use in your circles.
Yeah. So a few others that people can look up are the Inanna and Areeshkagul. So that story is commonly known as Inanna's descent. And see there again, even in the name of the title, we're very tantalized by the underworld part of her story. I also tell the story of Lilith. So you may know her from Lilith Fair or I think there was like some sort of modern superhero show that had Lilith as a Sabrina.
The new Sabrina on Netflix had Lilith.
Oh, there's a Lilith in that one. These, these energies are still around because they're stories that want to be told. There's another story that I tell. Oh, I tell these modern fairy tales that we all know. Snow White and Sleeping Beauty. I tell those as maiden stories and rites of passage and menstruation stories. So they're big themes that come up.
You also said the llorna, is that right?
Yeah. So that's one of the last stories that I tell in the circles because that's now moving into the wise woman. So Siwa Koatal is the name of the old. I don't know if we could call her a goddess, but, like, archetypal goddess energy. And she is related to pregnancy and sweat lodge and marshy places like the waters and all of, . And now in more modern lore, I think mostly Mexico, we have Llorona. So she's like this crying woman who cries out for her babies. Like, there's Demeter again, right, there she is. And she's cried out for her babies. And she either had to drown them herself or they drowned. And so there's this water connection, like the waters of birth, maybe all the tears that we shed, all of these different connections.
And this modern day depiction of La Llorona is scary. Stay away from her. You don't want to be in contact. You want to run away. Like, she's evil. I don't think of her as evil. I remember sitting, it was like with my husband, his sister, maybe some other friends and family, and they were talking about their encounters with the Llorona and how scary it was. And my baby had died maybe a few months prior. And I just remember thinking, like, I'm not scared of her. I am her. I want to be out in the marshes, and just like, my baby is, like, where is my baby? So I get her. I get her now, her and Siwakoatal, that she's like the modern Siwa Koatal. But, see, we've demonized her. We've made her into this scary thing where Siwa Koatol. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
She's kind of like a boogeyman, right? She takes children from the shore, so you're not supposed to get too close to the shore, or else you'll be swept into the water with her, and she'll take you to be her child. Is that what the story?
Yeah. She could take something from you, but really it's us trying to understand, why does grief take so much? Why does death come to everyone? That's what's really underneath that story.
And you were saying that.
So Siwakoatal is the original goddess. She takes care of the souls that have died in pregnancy loss, and they're actually exalted into, like this. So the Vikings have this Valhalla, right? So warriors are in this exalted AfterLife, and the women and the people who died in pregnancy, they're in this exalted AfterLife, and they're watched over by Siwakoatal. And I imagine the Babies, too, and they're the souls that raise the sun each day. So there in that story, they're given a place of honor, and Siwa Koato is given a place of protection. Whereas now Llorona is, like, scary and stay away. And she's evil. But I think that it's just a modern take, and it informs our ideas of grief, but it's also our ideas of grief inform these stories.
So I don't think that it's a coincidence that the more modern tales of grief are, like, scary stay away.
Yeah.
Because we just get further and further away from it. So then, of course, it is more scary stay away.
Yeah.
But in the past, the further you go back in these stories, the more honor and reverence there is around grief and death.
Yeah.
And that's also a place that I like to take the members of the grief circle. I like to share that with them just so we can all remember. This is our collective memory. Our collective memory is not. I mean, of course, there's fear there, too, but our collective memory is of honor and reverence, not of, like, scary, stay away.
And does that include not being afraid to mention your child in public and with family and friends on a regular basis? Is that included in that?
Yeah, it could show up in that way, or it could show up in honoring them privately. You can light a candle and not tell anyone. You can have their name on a piece of jewelry. And if people ask about it, they do. If no one does, they don't. Some people like to get a tattoo of their baby's name or the flower that's for their birth month. And then if people ask, then, yeah, then they're happy to share. So it's that happiness, reverence, and the joy of sharing that? Yes, they existed.
So when I was doing research, I was trying to know, find some folktales that were related to healing and grief, and I came across this one that was from Germany, and I didn't like it. And so it's called the sad little angel. It goes, once upon a time, there was a mother whose only child died. She cried for it increasingly. Once she was out in the field and crying again, suddenly she saw an entire band of lovely angels flying above her, all of them young and beautiful, all of them happy and fearful. Then the mother thought, oh, if only my child were such a little angel. And she looked to see if she could not find her child in the band, but she could not see it. Then from behind, there came a little angel. It was very sad.
And carrying a heavy black jug in its little hands, it was the child's mother. The mother asked, why, child, are you not happy with the little angels? Mother? It said, as long as you were crying, I must collect your tears and cannot be happy like the others. And from that hour forth, the mother cried no more. And so I came across this, and I just felt like it was for me. If I was in this situation, I feel like it would just be filled with guilt, like you needed to stop and get over it. That was how I read it. And the website I was on had multiple different versions of the same basic story of a mother continuously crying or drowning in tears and had stopped crying.
But I was just curious if there were stories out there that you felt like weren't healthy or unhelpful or is it just personal?
Yeah, I think that's a really good question, because everyone's experience of grief is so unique and different. So some stories may resonate with some people and others may not. And in the stories that I tell, I do like to bring in the validation of the tears and the grief and the tough feelings. But in all the stories, there's also the ascending part. So we go down, but we also come up. So some people may relate to this little angel story, being hopeful for a day when they're not crying all the time and being hopeful for a day where they can live in the love and the joy of their baby or their child's memory. And not just the grief. The grief will always be there. It's always there. It's part of it. It's part of the story.
But just like all of the stories that I tell, the underworld part is part of it, but it's not the whole story. Yeah, but also this could be a more modern, like, angel, right? That's a Judeo christian term. So in our more modern fairy tales, in our more modern stories, we're getting further and further away from the ancient ideas of reverence for grief and honor for the hardship.
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, man. The sun is, like, right in my face. Usually it's perfect, but right now it's kind of splotchy. So we've covered a lot. Is there anything that we've missed or that you feel like you want to mention?
I would just like to say again that this path, when we have to make this choice to end a wanted pregnancy, or even if you're grieving a pregnancy, that you didn't have to make this choice, it feels so very isolating, so very lonely. And I want to say it is a solitary journey, but you don't have to do it alone. And I know that the burden is on us, as the grieving person, to find the right community for us. And that can be very hard.
And maybe that is part of your underworld journey, is not having found your community yet or still looking, or maybe you're in a couple of spaces, or you may end up creating your own, like I did, but just to keep going, to keep looking for the people who are holding up those lights that are further down on the journey and say, like, yes, I crawled out of the underworld through my blood, sweat and tears, like dirt under my fingernails, like, face wrecked with tears, but I crawled out of there, and I see you crawling, and I see you down in there, and I'm here, and I know you can crawl out of there, too.
Those are lovely words. And we will definitely be putting all of your links on our website, which is ww fabricafoclour.com. We'll put a link to your TFMR doula page, and also we'll have a link to your ritual page and the one where you can sign up if you are interested in signing up for one of Sabrina's grief circles that happen every three months. Is that right?
Yeah, quarterly. Okay, I start up a couple new.
Groups and so we'll put those links up on our website. And you want to say it out loud for the listeners just so they can look it up if they want.
Yeah, sure. You can find all of my links at the tfmrdula.com or you can just search for me the Tfmrdula and all of those links will come up. I have them almost all on my homepage. So you can find the link to join the grief circles or find the link to come and join us in the Facebook group. Or you could get on my email list and I send out emails with encouragement and hope and different ideas for how to get through this.
Well, thank you so much for joining us, Sabrina, and talking about such an important topic today.
Thank you so much, Vanessa, and thank.
You folksy folks for joining us on this journey. Like I said before, the links will be on our fabricofolklore.com page. What did you take away from the show? Do you feel that tales help you and your own life through what you're going through? We encourage you to continue that conversation. Either if you're watching on YouTube, you can make comments down below, or you can join our Facebook community page where we continue having conversations about the podcast that we've aired that week. We want to hear from you. It's so wonderful when we hear from the audience about their reactions. So I really enjoy hearing from you, so please reach out for us. If you're enjoying the show, please consider rating and reviewing the show.
If you're listening on Apple or Spotify, you can rate us and give us reviews that helps new people find our show and of course share it. Tell your neighbor that you saw a mythological creature eating roses and refer to the show to learn about how to deter it in her yard. And once again, this is fabric of folklore. I'm your hostess, Vanessa. I roger, where we unravel the mysteries of folklore and until next time, keep the folk alive.
