Ep 58: Where Psychology and Mythology Meets Ancient Wisdom with Dr. Catherine Svehla

How can we apply mythology to better our well-being? In episode 58, Dr. Catherine Svehla, a storytelling scholar and consultant in the field of mythology, and creativity coach explains the importance of old stories in understanding the human experience. She discusses how she helps artists and creative individuals through the exploration of old myths which she describes as the foundation of our world- the source of our ideas, beliefs, values and institutions. We discuss psychology, specifically tho works of Freud, and Jung and how mythic exploration has therapeutic potential. We talk about how engagement and personal reflection on the relevance of these timeless tales in addressing existential questions can influence one's personal creative journey.

Website: https://mythicmojo.com

Myth Matters Podcast: https://mythicmojo.com/myth-matters-podcast-blog/

Timeline:

• 🧠 Dr. Svehla's Background and Mythology Interest (09:33 - 17:11)
• Dr. Svehla's journey into mythology began during a personal crisis
• depth psychology, including Freud and Jung's work
• the intersection of art, psychology, and mythology
• use of mythology in psychology by Freud and Jung
• the origins of her podcast 'Myth Matters'
• 🐸 The Frog Prince Story Analysis (17:11 - 25:17)
• Dr. Svehla shared the Grimm's tale 'The Frog Prince'
• Discussed various interpretations and reactions to the story
• Explored feminist perspectives and prejudices against princesses
• Analyzed the story's themes of transformation and integration
• 🌟 Mythic Sensibility and Story Interpretation (25:17 - 33:24)
• Explained the concept of 'mythic sensibility'
• Discussed the need for understanding myths rather than creating new ones
• Emphasized the importance of examining stories on multiple levels
• Explored how stories reflect cultural and psychological aspects
• 🎭 Applying Mythic Analysis to Modern Stories (33:24 - 44:08)
• Discussed the possibility of applying mythic analysis to modern stories
• Explained the benefits of using older stories for group processes
• Highlighted the importance of personal interpretation in storytelling
• Discussed the use of dreams and overheard snippets for self-reflection
• 🔮 Dr. Svehla's Professional Work (44:10 - 54:27)
• Discussed the 'Story Oracle' reading process
• Highlighted the use of mythology in personal and creative development
• Mentioned work with artists and writers using mythological themes
• 🧘 Psychedelics and Altered States in Mythic Work (54:27 - 01:05:15)
• Explained Dr. Svehla's experience with altered states and mythic backgrounds
• Emphasized the connection between symbolic language and altered states
• Encouraged taking personal responses to stories seriously
• 🌈 Concluding Thoughts and Podcast Information (01:05:15 - 01:15:40)
• Reinforced the importance of old stories in understanding human experience
• Discussed the modern challenge of answering existential questions individually

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Transcript

Vanessa: 0:07

Welcome, folks. And folks, welcome to fabric of folklore. I'm your hostess, Vanessa Y. Rogers, and this is the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of folklore. This is a show that celebrates community and what it means to be human in today's world. We do this by examining folklore or folk tales, our fairy tales, folk music, and traditions. We tell and retell these stories because they continue to hold meaning, even if we don't know what that meaning is. My three year old serenaded his mother's Day out classroom, unprompted the other day with his rendition of Winkle, little Star, and his enthusiasm was such that the nearby classrooms could also hear his performance. But it had me thinking about this song and other nursery songs and Twinkle, Washington first published. The poem was first published by Jane Taylor in 1806, and the music that we play it to is even older, from 1761. It was several composers arranged that music, and that included Mozart, and I just was kind of flabbergasted at how incredible it is that these nursery rhymes that we continue to tell our children have such threads to our past. And I think it's a powerful thought, a powerful connecting thought. And that is why we explore folklore on this show, because it brings that connection, whether that connection is to our community, to our communities across the globe, or to our communities in our history. Understanding that history and our context of folklore can help to enlighten, illuminate, and bring meaning. So if that sounds like a podcast that you want to continue to listen to, make sure you hit that subscribe button, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcasting platform like Apple or Spotify, if you hit that subscribe button, you get notifications every week when our podcast drops. And if you are already a longtime listener, thank you so much. Please consider giving us a review because it's so helpful for indie podcasts like ourselves to be found via the algorithms, because more five star reviews, it pushes it out to more people. We have a really fantastic show for you today. We'll be talking about the way that our preferences for stories and the details that we notice in a given story can illuminate our beliefs, our ideas, and our personal qualities. We'll be looking at fairy tales and how they can be used for self inquiry and reflection. Our guest is doctor Katherine Speller. She's a storyteller, scholar and consultant in the field of mythology, an artist and outdoors woman, creativity coach, lover of mysteries, and a mentor in the mythic life. She helps artists and other creative individuals realize their visions for their projects and their life. She also has a podcast, a fellow podcaster at myth Matters, which explores the old stories and old myths, which, as she describes, are the foundation of our world, the source of our ideas, beliefs, values, and institutions. So thank you so much for joining us today. Catherine.

Catherine: 3:11

Thank you. Vanessa, I'm so pleased to meet you, and I love your Podcast, and thank you for the invitation.

Vanessa: 3:19

Well, thank you so much. What a wonderful compliment. I love yours as well. It's so, it's very interesting, and we'll definitely be talking about it. Can you talk to us a little bit about what got you interested in mythology in the first place?

Catherine: 3:36

Well, quite a few years ago, I was going through what I guess in folklore we might call the dark, a dark night of the soul. And I started painting, and this images just poured out of me. And so at a point, I stopped and looked at them, and I was like, wow, you know, I am having a conversation with myself. And this led me to depth of psYchology, to freud and CG JuNg. And so, and there's an intersection there between the way that they think about the symbolic life and mythology and the work of Joseph Campbell. Anyway, the art and psychology and mythology became married in my mind very early on. And at a point, I started studying mythology itself, and this was back in the late nineties, and people were making so many interesting connections that at a point I thought, oh, this could be a good avenue for me. But honestly, I totally forgot about it. I got absorbed in the need to make a living and keep things going. And it wasn't until several years later when I turned 40, which is a kind of a magical age for many of us, especially for women, I suddenly woke up one morning, and I was like, oh, I need to go to graduate school, and I need to move to the desert. And through a variety of strange, other strange kind of synchronicities, I found out about the myth program at Pacifica, and I had completely forgotten about what I thought mythology might hold until I read the description of that program.

Vanessa: 5:34

So you talk about psychology. Do you have a background in psychology, or was it just an interest of yours?

Catherine: 5:41

It was just an interest of mine. I can look back now and see that off and on. For most of my life, I've been studying different systems, let's call them that people have developed for explaining the way that we are and how we see our world. And most of this I've done informally. But I'm old enough now that I have a certain depth in some of it. So astrology for example, and psychology was part of the context for my degree. I have my PhD is in mythological studies and depth psychology. Because the idea that we are living our myths and that they show us something about our imagination and the human psyche and experience that's enduring, I mean, you put that very beautifully in the intro to your. To this episode. That's at the heart of how I studied myth as something that was living, not as relic from the past. Yeah.

Vanessa: 6:51

And, you know, the more and more guests I have on, especially folklorist, they say that's one of the biggest misconceptions that people have of folklore, is that it's something from the past, it's those other people that have folklore, but it's really something that is that we are constantly living and constantly making, and it's. It's not something that is other. It is what we are currently experiencing.

Catherine: 7:19

Right, right. And once you, I think once you start working with stories and get a certain level of immersion in them, so to speak, to the point where, for example, if you watch a movie and something happens in a set of three, there's something in your mind that goes, oh, yeah, right. That's the way it always happens. Always happens, because that's the way it always happens in fairy and folktales and even in a lot of myths. Then you start noticing it. You start noticing all of these themes that we borrow and, yeah, we're completely immersed in the storied world that our species has been cultivating for as long as we've probably as long as we would be recognized ourselves as human, I would think.

Vanessa: 8:15

And so did any of the notable, the historical psychologists like Freud and Jung. Did they talk about folklore and mythology as well in their work?

Catherine: 8:27

Oh, absolutely.

Vanessa: 8:27

Did they use it?

Catherine: 8:29

Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, Freud came. Freud came first. And I don't know how much we want to get off in this. He kind of circumscribed his world, but his core, or opening theory, so to speak, was the oedipus myth.

Vanessa: 8:52

That's right.

Catherine: 8:52

The oedipal complex, you see. And so right from the very beginning, he put his ideas in a mythological context. Now, for Freud, one of the main reasons that he did that was that he was an extremely good writer and he was, it was the most effective language, you know, I mean, that's where the best metaphors were. And then Jung came along and Jung was a follower of Freud's for some time. And I. Jung went a little bit further. He was more open to the esoteric and the paranormal. That was the reason that they parted ways. Jung said, wow. There's an archetypal, there's a patterned, symbolic language that's shared, and one of the ways that it appears is in mythologies, in our shared narratives. So arguably, you can't separate his ideas about how we talk to ourselves and personal psychology and the notion of the archetypal. From his view of myth, I would say that is one of, you know, you probably already know this, but a huge number of people who have worked with mythology in one way or another and have been part of for the last, you know, say, 50 years, advancing this idea that mythology is something that we're living, that many, many of them have backgrounds in Jungian psychology.

Vanessa: 10:36

Campbell, I have been noticing that as I interview people, that has seemed to be a theme. So I definitely feel like that is a topic that I would like to have on the show specifically. But, yes, that is. That's super fascinating. Well, let's talk about your podcast, Myth Matters podcast. Can you tell us about how that got started?

Catherine: 11:02

Well, given what I just said about my background and how I understand myth, probably won't come as a surprise that my early projects all involved telling stories and offering people the opportunity to have conversation about them. And this was something that I'd observed other people doing, either in person or in their books. One great example is women who run with the wolves.

Vanessa: 11:34

I just read that one.

Catherine: 11:35

Yeah, well, so that was a huge blockbuster back when I was in those early painting days and everything. And what got me really interested in, and, you know, this stories in psychology and how they could work together. Anyway, so I was doing live events every month in the desert where I was living as part of a program associated with the Joseph Campbell foundation, and then. And creating some workshops and doing things with people. And then some friends of mine decided to start an online radio program called Radio Free Joshua Tree. That's where I was in the Mojave in southern California, and they asked me if I would do a program. And this was in 2013. Podcasting itself was still, like, really very new. So I didn't think of it as a podcast, right. But I initially started it as an extension of what I was doing in these groups. I thought, well, this is kind of weird because I'm by myself sitting in a room alone, but I can tell these stories, and maybe if I share the way that I unpack them or what's interesting to me, I can demonstrate to people how to do this, you know, how to find value in these stories. And so now you flash forward years later. I mean, myth matters. That was in 2019. I think I realized, oh, I should just make this a podcast and get on app. I changed the name and. But that's my intent is it's very similar to yours, I think, except that I have the background in psychology that informs my approach to the stories.

Vanessa: 13:27

And so your intent is really to help people to see that they can use these types of stories and their own lives and apply it to themselves.

Catherine: 13:39

Right. Right.

Vanessa: 13:42

And do you have a favorite episode that you've done?

Catherine: 13:47

No. Every time I do one that comes even close to what I imagined I was going to do, it becomes my new favorite. You know how that is. So. Not really. I mean, I do have a few stories that have been particularly meaningful to me, you know, over the last 30 years or so. So.

Vanessa: 14:09

Well, we'd love to hear one of.

Catherine: 14:11

Them to tell you the story or tell you what it is.

Vanessa: 14:15

Yeah, you can tell us a shortened version because I know when you. When you're telling stories, you're doing them in full length and you're doing, you know, great storytelling, which we love on the show as well, but we don't have extended amount of time.

Catherine: 14:29

So again, like, hold on a second. And also, one of my. One of my favorites is actually the myth cycle of Anana. Okay, in myths, but see, that's, like, long. I mean, when I've done. I've done that on my podcast a couple times, and I've always broken it into, like, three or four or five episodes. However, for our purposes here, one story that I really love and I've worked with a lot in a lot of different contexts is the Grimm's tale the frog princess. And that's the story about the princess. She has a golden ball. It's her most valuable possession. And she also likes to go into the woods and sit on the edge of a well and throw the ball up into the air and catch it. And then one day, she doesn't catch the ball, and it bounces and it rolls into the well. And a frog hears her crying and comes up and says, hey, I'll go and get it for you, but you have to give me something in exchange. And at first, she offers him all of the relatively simple things that a princess might offer, like, how about my ring? And he's, no, no. I have to be your best friend. You have to take me home. I have to eat with you, sleep in your bed, all of this. And she really wants the ball back. So she says, okay, the frog jumps in, comes back up, throws the ball out on the grass, and before he's even really, like, hopped out, she's grabbed the ball and run off. No intention of a frog. I mean, hello. And then later on that night, she's at dinner with her parents, and there's a knock on the door, and her father, the king, says, why don't you go get that? And she opens the door, and it's the frog. He says, what are you doing? We made a deal. She's like, get out of here. She's like, closes the door. And when she goes back to the table, her father says, who was that? She was like, well, just some dumb frog, you know, I mean, I lost my ball. And, well, the king says, did you make a promise? If you made a promise, you have to keep it. So she ends up going and, you know, letting the frog in, and he totally grosses her out, you know, sitting there and eating off of her plate, and it's horrible. And finally they go up to her room, and he's nagging her, put me on your pillow. Put me on your pillow. And she gets really pissed off and picks him up and goes, I'll throw. Put you on my pillow. And throws him against the wall and smashes him. And funny thing as this goo, I guess this is the way I imagine it tells you something about my psychology. Slides down the wall, he turns into this handsome prince, which, of course, changes everything. And the next morning, her dad comes and they say, hey, we're getting married. We're madly in love. And then I. The prince calls his coachman from his kingdom. And the coachman, Henry, comes and puts, bunzles him into the coach, and they head back off to the prince's kingdom. And on the way, they hear this weird snapping sound. And when the prince asks Henry about it, he discovers that the coachman's been so distraught since the prince had disappeared that his heart had completely hardened and had bands of iron over them. And they were all breaking because he was so happy. His heart was overflowing because the prince was going home. And that's the end of the story.

Vanessa: 18:25

So I would love to hear your unpacking of this story because I recently read that story to my children, and I don't, I think it ended at they got married. Like, there was a, not a coachman in the version I read to the kids, but I just was kind of taken aback when I read that story. And I was like, so this selfish little girl who doesn't want to keep her promise gets her prince and is rewarded. I don't understand the moral of that story. That just really didn't jive with me when I was reading that story. I was like, I don't like that. Okay. Your reaction to it.

Catherine: 19:08

Well, so, first of all, you're an excellent company, as far as I can tell, your reaction to the princess and the, as I say, I've told this story quite a few times to groups and also to individual people. It's one of the stories in this story oracle thing that I do. And your response is a really great example of our topic today of how you can use stories. So one reason I like to tell the story is that many people don't realize that in the original version, she smashes him. They know the version about the kiss. She kisses the frog.

Vanessa: 19:54

Right.

Catherine: 19:56

And so, first of all, I think that shift is very interesting to examine and to put your response up against. Why do we feel like the princess has to kiss the frog? Why is a beautiful young woman compelled to kiss the frog? There's no right or wrong answer in any of this. But when I put that against a feminist backdrop, then some very interesting conversations can emerge. Like, well, what are our prejudices against the princess? For example, like, in many of the conversations that I've had with groups, people have been like, well, the princess. I don't like the princess, and they don't like her because she doesn't keep her promise.

Vanessa: 20:56

Mm.

Catherine: 20:57

And then you investigate a little bit further and, well, what. How do you see the princess? Like, I remember in one group, a woman said that she was like some sort of Paris Hilton type.

Vanessa: 21:09

Yeah.

Catherine: 21:09

And that opened up this whole conversation about this prejudice against princesses, because who are they? And they're just beautiful, and they don't earn anything. And you can take each one of those things apart, of course, and find or critique in them. But it is kind of interesting. It's like, well, she's rich and she's beautiful, so we hate her, period. And then isn't it just classic that a person like that would not keep their promise when you can flip it around and go, well, wait a minute here. This accident happened, and this person comes and volunteers. I mean, I'm not justifying the necessarily, but it's a little bit more complicated. Right. I mean, the frog could have done it for the ring, but he didn't. He pressed his advantage. Okay, so maybe the frog is actually kind of an asshat. I mean, really? So you could go that way, too. So a lot of dimensions in there, and then because many people are surprised by the splat. That's been an interesting thing to think about as well. Why is it that we want the kiss again, that she owes it to him? But if you look at the story from, again, from a jungian perspective, which the story lends itself to, although there's lots of other ways to think about it, then the story is about something in the psyche coming together, you know, a union of opposites, what we often would call the masculine and the feminine. And so it's interesting to think about, well, how does that take place? I mean, do we integrate aspects of ourselves and move closer to a greater state of wholeness in ourselves? Is it always a pretty process? I mean, it has been in my life a lot of transformations been pretty tough. So that's another part that one can think about, how we feel about that process, whether or not we've ever experienced it. And how does that impact our perception of the different characters? Kind of along those same lines. Some people, like, I think Joseph Campbell did this, often talked about the story as one about maturation of the princess. And so in that instance, you could go, you know, the moment when you stop doing exactly what your dad tells you to do is a pretty pivotal moment in terms of becoming your own person.

Vanessa: 24:20

Mm. Yeah.

Catherine: 24:22

So, yeah. So I hope I'm giving you some idea about the richness of this, actually. And so if you. My suggestion to people in my podcast, but also in the workshops and other things that I do and what I try and support in various ways, is questioning the reactions. So it's like, well, okay, so I don't get the story because I'm aggravated by this. And the aggravations, by the way, are often very useful. Being irritated by a story often brings you more interesting stuff. But then to go, well, why is that? Like, how do I imagine this character? What are the values that I'm being seeing here? You know, could I imagine playing devil's advocate with myself, you know, and flipping it around, and then what do I see? There's all those different things. And then I think the last part of the story is kind of weird, you know, because it's like, why do we need Henry, you know, and that whole thing? And I can't offer you a really nice, clean answer to that question. I do think that the oddness of it is one of the reasons that it frequently gets dropped off, end the story with them getting married there. But arguably, it tells us something about the prince, that he was beloved, and maybe today we're far enough away from the idea that you could be cursed, that we don't wonder about whether or not the cursed person deserves it. Does this make sense? I don't think about it. You know, I doesn't, I don't think well did. But there's a nice, but if you do, then there's an interesting piece there, like, yes, it was, in fact, a wicked witch who cursed somebody who was really good.

Vanessa: 26:39

Mm.

Catherine: 26:40

We know that because his coachman's heart is bursting open because he has come back, too.

Vanessa: 26:48

Mm.

Catherine: 26:50

And it could also add another layer to the notion of their marriage, of, you know, what's coming. Because if you think about the union of this prince and these prince and this princess, strictly from jungian terms, as, you know, as being something that's been integrated in a person, then that's one thing. But in a little bit broader sense, the prince and the princess will become the king and the queen. And so there's this intimation of, like, what's the kingdom going to be like? Is it in good hands? So there's all that, too.

Vanessa: 27:32

You know, in one, the story that I read, the illustrations made the girl look so young, like a little girl, like between nine and twelve. And I think that also rubbed me wrong that this, I mean, like, you know, a lot of times children are selfish, and that's a pretty normal state of children. You know, they have to learn to think about others, and they have to think about outside of themselves. But then they, she automatically gets married to this frog who turned into a prince. And I, the visual of her being this little girl and then all of a sudden being married, I also didn't like that element. And I don't know that she's ever described, I don't know if her age is ever described in the Grimm fairy tales or any other tales.

Catherine: 28:30

It's not. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it is. And, you know, another, so another layer of this kind of analysis that we can bring. And it might also be interesting for you in the same way that it is for me, because you're handling stories in a similar fashion. A story that's part of the oral tradition has no codified images, it has no art. And so in the same way that when the stories start being recorded, they start stiffening, like, oh, this is the story. Now, those images tell you a lot about the artist's position in the story, what they wanted to bring forward in the version that they thought was the right one, and also their cultural moment. I mean, I think what you just described to me, there's. We could have a whole. Do a whole podcast on the images of the woman and of children in stories like this and where they steer us in directions that are more or less useful for us in our culture now. But I think that weird disconnect often happens in illustrated collections of fairy and folk tales because they have been relegated to children's stories, and they were not originally children's stories.

Vanessa: 30:14

Right. Yes, because they were just stories that adults told to one another before the Grimm brothers started to collect them and put them into stories. And even when they first collected them, they were intended for adults. But when they realized that children were reading them, then they started creating additions that were more geared towards children.

Catherine: 30:37

Yes. Yeah. So you have this weird situation of a nine year old getting married.

Vanessa: 30:43

Right. Which in our modern times is just horrible to think about. I have an eight year old son, and I just cannot know.

Catherine: 30:52

Right, right. Well, and there is this other angle, too, that, you know, childhood, the way we think of it, is a fairly recent cultural phenomenon.

Vanessa: 31:04

Right.

Catherine: 31:05

But nevertheless. Yeah, I think that. I think a lot of the images. Yeah, it's an interesting. It's an interesting conundrum ongoing for me, because, you know, you work with stories, you're putting this material online. Images are very powerful. People want to see them. A lot of them are really beautiful. But you really have to bring a level of awareness to what they're communicating and how you're setting, conditioning people's response to the story through the images that you're choosing.

Vanessa: 31:47

Now, the Disney retelling of the frog and the prince is completely different. And I'm curious if there are. If they actually took any ties from anything or if they just recreated it themselves. Do you have any idea?

Catherine: 32:01

I don't. The only thing I know really, about Disney is that he was very focused on fairy tales because they are wonder tales, as you probably know, is another word for them. And he felt that wonder was an experience that all of us desperately needed and that we needed at any age.

Vanessa: 32:27

Right.

Catherine: 32:28

So he tended to wrap all of his stories up into something extra magical. But I don't know specifically what he did with. With the frog.

Vanessa: 32:37

Well, he wasn't alive when they. Because it was just a remake in the two thousands, I believe, in maybe 2012. I don't know exactly what year it came out, but he was long past. So it was the Disney. It was a recent rendition. Have you seen that one?

Catherine: 32:54

No. No, I'm not aware of it.

Vanessa: 32:56

It's beautiful. I mean, I really love that one, basically, I mean, it's very different. It takes place in Louisiana as Cajun. The prince himself is the selfish one. The princess is actually not a princess at all. She's working towards, she's poor and she's working towards trying to earn enough money for a restaurant. And at some point, I don't remember, she ends up being a frog as well. And they both are both frogs and they're both trying to figure out how to not become frogs and in the end they have to kiss themselves and they, there's a whole change of attitude, especially with the prince. And then there's some sort of happily ever after. There is a princess involved, but she is not the one who kisses the princess. So anyways, it's a very cute tale, but it's very different from the grim fairy tale version that we are, we're familiar with, which is. Yeah, it's a very different take. So I was just curious if there was any, if they took from any other tales because as you know, there's one version that we're familiar with because they come from grim fairy tales, but they can be, there can be lots of different versions in lots of different places. So I was nothing actually familiar with if they found other versions to kind of go off of this movie. But that'll have to be a topic for another day.

Catherine: 34:31

Maybe someone, it sounds like they made somebody, they made a new one in response to some of the things that were just talking about. Yes.

Vanessa: 34:41

Yeah, it does. It does feel like that. And it's a really cute one. I don't mind rewatching that one over and over with my children. That's always nice. If a movie does not annoy you, is there a theme that you feel like comes up again and again in your podcast when you are telling stories, is there something that you see over and over again.

Catherine: 35:15

That I see? It's something that I see over and.

Vanessa: 35:17

Over again because I will say so while you're thinking about that. One of the things that I find noteworthy about the frog and the prince is one of the things that I see is kindness and generosity. And that is not so much a pillar in the frog and the princess story, the princess and the frog. And I, and I found that element interesting as well. Ok, I would like to hear your thoughts about themes that you see.

Catherine: 35:47

Well, I think that goodness wins is a pretty consistent theme. And actually see, I would, again, I would argue that is in the frog prince. Okay, let's hear it well, once you accept the process back to that, they're happy, right?

Vanessa: 36:10

Yeah.

Catherine: 36:11

I mean, the frog prince isn't saying, hey, you threw me against the wall, so forget it. You know, I mean, as it turned out, he did exactly the right thing to restore him to his nap, to his. To his original form, and they're all happy and they're going to go. They're going back to a kingdom where everyone's going to be all happy. It's a little bit buried because the wicked queen who cast the spell and all of that is way in the backstory. It doesn't get told at all. But I think. I think that one, that goodness wins is a primary theme in fairy and folk tales. I think that humility is another value that comes through very often. The person or who thinks that he or she knows everything or won't help someone that they think is lesser than them, or take advice from someone they think is lesser than them, or feels a person who, like, especially a king who feels insulated from trouble because he thinks that he has enough money and power, those people all get brought down. And that's one of the reasons that I like these stories. But also I think it suggests part of their function, which is this subversive. There's a subversive quality to them because the king can get replaced by the miller's son, who turns out to just be a better person and more clever. That happens a lot. Another thing that happens a lot that I find very interesting is the amount of help that we get from what now today we think of as being magical sources or things that couldn't happen. You know, the talking rabbit, whatever. I find that really interesting for a couple reasons. One, thinking about the psychology of our time, it's my opinion. But I think that a lot of people are struggling either because they feel lonely or overwhelmed or inadequate, because our dominant story, which I would say is, again, a myth that has roots in things we call myths, is that we're on our own. And the reality of it is we get all kinds of help. We are not alone. And we come in to this life exactly as we need to be. So that idea that there are helpers all over the place, some of whom are in recognizable form and some aren't, to me, I think, is a really helpful and interesting idea. And the fact that most human beings have thought, who've been on the planet have thought that, because it's in all the stories everywhere throughout time. And then that leads me to my second thing, which is that I think a lot more of those phenomenon that many people would now say are fantastical and are part of the impetus to calling them children's stories are, in fact, true. And that it's has the fact that we don't have the experience that when I go out into my yard in the morning, the rabbit that's eating my lawn, doesn't speak to me, has more to do with me and the culture that I'm in than the real possibility that was ever possible. That's debatable. I recognize a lot of people don't agree with me about that, but I think the stories have a lot more. Speak a lot more factually about how people used to experience the world than we think. So that's another one. The help. The help, all of the help and the different dimensions and the things that we call magic. I could probably click on the long list, but I'll stop there because I keep going off on these.

Vanessa: 40:59

I would like to hear you talk a little bit about this dominant cultural narrative that we have, because I think you. That was one of the podcasts that I. Well, you have transcripts on your website, so if you can. If you prefer to read, you can read your podcast as well, or you can listen, which is a great option for those who are visual rather than auditory. Can you talk a little bit about that cultural narrative?

Catherine: 41:29

Well, trying to think about an easy way to. Okay, so sticking with our theme here of myth and folklore, the hero's journey. You know what I'm talking about.

Vanessa: 41:53

Joseph Campbell's hero's journey. Yes. Yeah.

Catherine: 41:55

Right. So we have. Joseph Campbell did a survey of all kinds of myths and fury and folk tales, mostly myths, but from different cultures. And he pulled out this motif, and he said, okay, so look, all around the world, across time, people have been telling this story about this journey that an individual makes from being born with a destiny to having to go on some kind of testing adventure. I guess he called it heroes adventure, where you leave home, you leave everything that's familiar, you get all kinds of challenges, and you learn something profound. And ultimately, in our most important stories, what you learn is that there's an underlying unity to everything. So, and you go back to your community and you share this and you renew the community. It's a beautiful pattern, and we do have many, many stories that fit it. It has, however, become a vehicle for feeding the idea that the hero is the one who overcomes and surmounts and wins and beats and kills. Most of those are men in our inherited stories, and the hero is alone now, from the Campbell's perspective, the hero is alone, because when we make this interior journey, when we're doing our own psychological and spiritual work, going through those experiences, there is a way in which we are alone, because no one can really know what's in your head, for example. But that has kind of translated, especially in, like, the United States, into the idea of the superhero, the one who's not just a hero, but is, like, super, super. Like the guy that can do everything all by himself. And even though that isn't practically true in a lot of stories, it feeds into the self made Mandev and all kinds of other ideas that we have about what it means to be human. And basically, it boils down to, it's better to be a man, and you got to be strong, and you got to kick ass, and you got to look out for yourself, and you're doing it alone.

Vanessa: 44:43

Right.

Catherine: 44:49

I think that a lot of the reworking that people are doing of our older stories, some of which, you know, lend themselves to what I just said, but most of them don't. You know, if you think about the values and themes that you and I were just talking about, most of them are actually descriptions of a kinder, gentler, more interconnected world. But if you come to them with this framework, you can pluck out Thor, you know, you can lift him out of norse mythology and spin this whole other thing, which is not really a very complete image of who the guy was in the original myths. But I think, by and large, a lot of the kind, the reworking that we're seeing, like the example you just gave of the frog prince, is people taking this idea apart. That's a lot. That's part of what I find very encouraging and is also part of what's very exciting to me about doing what I'm doing, because more and more, I see people questioning through story, not just through politics, but through story, this idea that we're alone, that we got to just look out for ourselves, that it's dog eat dog, you know, the patriarchy, all of that stuff. So that's what I mean by when I say dominant, that we're alone.

Vanessa: 46:24

Right.

Catherine: 46:25

Was a big part of it.

Vanessa: 46:28

And what is your response to people who feel alone? How do you suggest people find their community? Because you hear a lot people say, how do you even make friends as an adult? And especially with our transient world where people don't live in the same place that they grew up in, they move to wherever they find work, and sometimes they have to move multiple times. It doesn't lend itself to making friends or building community very well. And I think a lot of our struggle has to do with that we, you know, we might not be in a place for very long. We don't necessarily have roots there. And then it just becomes so much harder to find the people to help prop you up.

Catherine: 47:21

Right. Right. Well, interesting that you should ask that, because I moved to Fort Collins by myself two years ago, and I don't know any. I didn't know anyone here. So this particular problem, and I'm 63, you know, which is not. Yeah. So. And I work by myself at home, so.

Vanessa: 47:43

Right.

Catherine: 47:45

There's. So there's a practical level to the question, and then there's also a dimension that has to do with, you know, the myths and stories and some of the other things that we've been talking about. So starting with that, if you. If you use. If you feed yourself stories that refresh your spirit in one way or another and also help you deal with the existential loneliness that many of us experienced. Back to the talking rabbit. See, when I see the rabbit, for one thing. But also I have a feeling of being in a community when I see the rabbit on my yard, in my grass. So using stories to cultivate for yourself or to ask questions, if that just seems completely absurd to, you know, to explore the philosophical issues for yourself, like, are you really actually alone in the existential sense? And I would say that our inherited stories and the mythologies and all of that say, no, you're not. You're not. It's a modern idea that we can know enough about something to take away the mystery. But that's not true. I mean, look at how much we know about, since Mother's Day was just Mother's Day, look at how much we now understand about the biology of pregnancy. And yet has that robbed the birth of a child of all of its mystery? Absolutely not. So anyway, so there's that. And then a little bit closer to home, if you having a good relationship with yourself, liking who you are, liking your own company and taking your own interests seriously, makes this the loneliness. Turns a lot of the loneliness into solitude, which is a very different thing. And stories, seeing, you know, using stories to, again, find that refreshment of spirit and see what it tells you about yourself and what you're interested in right now, giving yourself permission to do things, that's another part of it. And then on, as a practical matter. And these aren't two distinct things, you know, doing what I'm describing as these sort of existential and personal, interpersonal, very inner, personal relationship work puts you in a position to better able to go, well, these are the things that I'm really interested in. And so I got to find other people, ideally in person, wherever I am, because need contact with other people, but even online who are interested in these things. This making sense? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it doesn't help to have a cat. I mean, it helps to have a cat or a dog.

Vanessa: 51:35

Yes, absolutely. Aren't there. There are some studies that show that people who have pets live longer because they have the companionship.

Catherine: 51:44

Right, right, right.

Vanessa: 51:49

One of your episodes, you talk about mythic sensibility. I think it was the episode where you talked about the enchanted cave of Keshe Koran. Is that how you say it?

Catherine: 52:00

Mm. I think so. I mean, my pronunciation of a lot of things is awful.

Vanessa: 52:04

I know I have a terrible pronunciation. And you said in your transcript, I said that the absence of a mythic sensibility is a much greater problem than a lack of good and useful myths. Can you talk a little bit? Can you expand about what mythic sensibility is and what that means?

Catherine: 52:23

Okay, well, so, first of all, I said that in response to a very common idea that we need a better story. You hear that a lot now. We need a better story. And what people mean is one that isn't a patriarchal story and isn't one that makes us all feel alone and so on and so forth. And the idea is that we got to leave all of that behind and find something new. And that may be. I mean, we've been doing that, though, as a species, like reworking our stories along with our consciousness for centuries. And what I was suggesting, first of all, in that is that we've got lots of stories. I mean, we have lots of. And we don't have to like them. Like the conversation that you and I had with the frog princess about that whole story, you know, that could open itself up to a very interesting critique of the way that we think about men and women and love and personal development and transformation and da da on and on, that can with the story just as it is. But unless you do that, though, and this is where we get into the mythic sensibility, see, unless you take that seriously, unless you understand that story as being reflective of something in the culture and in your own psychology that is worth investigating, it just sits there. And then I went. So I think in my. So in my podcast at the end I say, you know, we've got to have a better understanding of our need for myth as well as what all of our old stories offer us, because we are making the myths and living the myths, when you know that changes a lot of things. So that's a big part of the mythic sensibility, is looking for the myth in things. Now, in that particular podcast, I tried to extend that a little bit further. I mean, one way to look at a story is literally, you know, what does it. Literally what is the literal description of the world that it offers? And that's a thing that you can examine and question and push up against and go, well, is that. And then there's use, there's taking it purely as metaphor, which is what Joseph Campbell and a lot of Jungians do, where the story is a description of the inner life, of the symbolic life. That's hugely valuable. I think that's true, but that's not the whole thing either, because then there's another stepping back of looking for the kind of overarching truths, for lack of a better word, scary word to use these days. What does that mean? Truths about the world and people as we have been experiencing it over time, this sort of transpersonal. And so in that particular podcast, I was suggesting that when you do those three, all three of those things, then you're adopting a mythic sensibility. You know, you're starting off, you know, first you start off by going, okay, this is real. Like, this story is real. I may not be literally living it right now, but I it's a real thing. It's a pattern that's living. And so, on a factual level, does it tell me anything about my world? Does my response to it tell me anything about my relationship to my world? As a metaphor, what is it describing? What does it show me about the psychology of my psychology or the psychology of culture? And then beyond that, it's like, what are the big overarching themes? And that's a place where any given story really does connect to lots of other ones in the way that were talking about earlier. Yeah, it's when you do that, then you end up then the statements that I make about how the foundation of our reality is in these stories and these stories make that, then that becomes intelligible. Yeah, because I know it sounds like. Oh, yeah, right. Well, you know, what does that mean? Well.

Vanessa: 57:50

Yeah, absolutely. So when were talking about what this podcast episode would be about, one of the things that you said is that you feel that the way our preferences for stories and the details that we notice in a given story can illuminate our beliefs, our ideas, and our personal qualities. Can you expand on that?

Catherine: 58:12

Well, you gave a great illustration of that in our discussion about the frog prince. You know, your reaction to the princess, your use of the word moral, wanting there to be immoral in the story, thinking about the difference between being with the story yourself versus telling it to your kids. And so then what are you doing? You know, what's your agenda there? How you responded to the illustration. See, all of those things are things that you can be curious about and go, okay, well, so, all right, and then what? Like, you know, like, take it to the next level and maybe even the next level of feeling and thinking about it. Oftentimes, people are attracted to one of the symbols in the story, you know? So back to the frog prince again. Let's say that what you just can't stop thinking about is the golden ball. And you have an image in your mind of the golden ball, and you notice how the golden ball is at the beginning of the story and not at the end. And, well, you can go and look around online. Of course, you got to look at more than one place because everybody's got their own take, but you could research that and go, well, what is, you know, what is that? Why is it gold circle? You know what I mean? And go down those rabbit holes and see if anything resonates. I think as long as you are following the feeling that the thing is somehow profound and just a little bit out of reach in terms of your ability to articulate it, then you're on to something that is very useful. And even if. And usually, and especially if you don't get to the point of being able to really explain it to yourself, oh, I don't like princess because I see her as a blonde in my head. And this taps into. So, okay, note to self, that's not a very supportive view of women. I'm gonna, you know, as long as. As you're working with something and you keep having this feeling that there's something profound, there's something that compelling about it, you can also assume that will continue to work on you. Does this make sense, that it will be a feature of your psychic life, and you may keep seeing it and it may show up in other ways, or circle back or so back to that refreshment of the soul. That's a little bit about how you do it and what I mean by that. And I do feel that so many of us really love these stories and are drawn to them and embrace our love for them as a subject matter, but often stop short of giving ourselves the permission to let our response to them be really significant, you know, to make meaning out of it or look for meaning for ourselves. I want to encourage people to do, because I think that's how you find out who you. Who you are.

Vanessa: 1:02:06

Yeah. Reframing questions. Yeah. So you can reframe your idea of who you are. Yeah, that's really interesting. And we've been talking about using fairy tales and mythology to do this self inquiry and reflection work. Can you do this with modern stories? Can you do this with. If someone is not actually very interested in looking at mythology or fairy tales, but they really gravitate towards modern movies, is this something that they can do with more modern stories?

Catherine: 1:02:46

Yes, yes. I mean, the difference. Well, so I use the older stories because I have this interest in the archetypal and am generally doing this work with groups, you know, or with people that I don't know. And so the part, the older stories in particular, fairy tales, tend to be more of a blank slate. Philip Pullman wrote this really interesting introduction to his versions of grim fairy tales, and I can't remember the tone, the term that he used, but he basically said, because they don't have any psychology or very little in the story, the princess is just young, the prince is just handsome, something like that. We bring a lot to the story, and so it's easy, you know, it's easier to do in a group process or something, to do something like that. However, an individual person working with themselves can do what I'm describing, which is basically notice it, take it seriously, and follow the feeling, like investigate it in whatever directions. Keep you in touch with that feeling that you've got something here that's speaking to you. You can do that with anything. A lot of modern stories offer many opportunities for that, but you can also do it with dreams. I mean, that's one of the best ways to work with dreams and scraps of things you overhear.

Vanessa: 1:04:44

Speaking of dreams, that's one of the, that's part of the work that you do outside of your podcast, is that right? You help people analyze their own dreams?

Catherine: 1:04:54

Yes, that is, yes. I mean, basically what I do with people in various ways in all of my offerings is what we're talking about here is to see what they're noticing, where their attention is going and help them investigate that. And I'm in a good position to do that because of my background in psychology. And in story, and I often bring stories into the process because they shake things up, you know, because we're imagining all the time. But then when we go to solve our life problems, we try and, you know, think it through as if we're computers or something. And it's like, it's not really how it works. So working with me, you can come and have a story oracle reading because let's say you're trying to make a decision or you're in a situation, you don't really know what to do. You come and have a session and we use this really simple process, and I figure out the story I should tell you and I tell you, and then we talk about the story and we, and it's really interesting how these things will open up the question that the person came with. You can, if you're in a, if you're more interested in a deeper process or if you have a bigger question, like, should I quit my job?

Vanessa: 1:06:31

Yeah.

Catherine: 1:06:32

Other thing, then you can do something, you know, that's more extensive. And that's what I, that mentorship in the mythic dimension has to do with. Has to do with, let's invite in other aspects of your psyche to reframe some of the dilemma that you're in and that the form that takes depends really on the person, what they're trying to accomplish and what their relationship with themselves is and whether or not they have any practices already that take them in that direction. And then I do work with artists. Some of that, what I call the consulting, has more to do with person x's writing a novel using this myth. And they want somebody who can evaluate the quality of that, too, because I commit, you know, to go, oh, okay. Right. Yeah. Well, so if you're using this story, then maybe this should happen. Or here's good. Here are some good resources for investigating different parts of it.

Vanessa: 1:07:51

Or maybe if someone's having writer's block, can you help them work through what the origin of that is?

Catherine: 1:07:58

Yes. So that's, so I have these different names for these, but to help me. But they're all kind of come back to the same thing for me. Yes. So also, people who are doing various forms of creative work who are having problems with their process or want to understand it better, they also, and that is a combination of the stories and the tools that I have at my disposal for helping people connect to their own psychology and to also become more aware of how this thing called creativity works for them. And then also just practical experience from being a person who has been creating content with varying levels of artistry on a regular basis for 30 years. How do you do that? I know a few things about it as a practical, like try this. And then there's also, and I actually, and I just recently put this on my website in a more formal way because living in Colorado, as you may know, a lot of psychedelics, ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin, those things are all going through a process here that's bringing them out of the shadows and making them in various ways legal. And I have a lot of experience with those plants and have had over the years a whole set of experiences of working with people in altered states that to also spontaneous trance, out of body experiences, powerful dreams, those kinds of things. And all of those tend to have a mythic background. Again, it's our symbolic language, right? Yeah. So all of those possibilities.

Vanessa: 1:10:18

Well, this has been so fascinating. We're running out of time, but do you feel like there's anything that we missed that you feel we need touch on?

Catherine: 1:10:32

I don't think so. I guess if I have one last minute here, I would reinforce the primary point that I hope I've conveyed here, which is that the stories are stories, old or new. But as you said once again in your introduction, you know, the old stories, they've made it this far. So there's something about them. They are, they're talking about the human experience in a particular vocabulary, one that's been very potent for us for a long time. And they are a great way to open up your imagination and break out of the boxes. And I encourage people to take that experience seriously. Don't just stop there, use that, you know, because we're in a time where we have to do a lot of this work for ourselves. You know, it used to be that communities were a lot smaller, they were a lot more insulated and everybody had the same story. Then they didn't think it was a myth, then they thought it was religion or the truth or whatever. And we don't have that anymore. I mean, you can live in a, you know, in a pocket of like minded people around certain things and a lot of people are looking for that. But by and large, most of us have to answer our existential questions and figure out why we're here through our own efforts. And stories are super valuable for that if you take your response to them seriously.

Vanessa: 1:12:32

Well, thank you so much for joining us. Doctor Katherine, thank you for having me. Thank you for having a wonderful conversation. I think that a lot of people will get a lot out of it. And I really love having guests on that are able to not just explore the, you know, the origins, but also the practical side of how to utilize these stories because they are a part of our lives and it's sometimes hard to see what use they have for us. But I and I, some of my favorite episodes are people who are putting them to work in our modern lives. So anyways, thank you for your podcast and your work that you're doing.

Catherine: 1:13:20

Thank you. Thank you, Vanessa. It was fun.

Vanessa: 1:13:24

And thank you, folksy folks for joining us on this pursuit of finding meaning behind the myths and fairy tales. Today we will be posting up on the fabric of folklore website, which is ww dot fabricoffolklore.com. A link to her podcast is all one website. Do you want to tell everyone what the name of your website is?

Catherine: 1:13:47

So the name of the podcast is Mythmatters. But yes, it is available on my website, which is mythicmojo Mojo.

Vanessa: 1:13:58

And we'll put a link up on our show notes so anyone can easily access that. But yeah, if you are one of the podcasting platforms, you can also just look up Myth Matters podcast and take a listen to her podcast, which is very interesting. But we also continue the conversation and encourage our audience members to continue their conversation either. If you're watching on YouTube, you can comment down on our YouTube channel. If you are in our Facebook group, we ask different questions to encourage people to tell us what their thoughts were. What stories have you had a strong reaction to? Did you read the Frog and the Prince story recently? Have a reaction? Did our discussion stir anything in your head, in your heart? We want to hear those thoughts because that's really what this podcast is about, is the connection and figuring out all of this together as a community. So you can connect with us on social medias, Instagram, Facebook. We have a Facebook page and then a community page. Like I said, YouTube. We're on Twitter and LinkedIn as well, so you can find us in any of those places. We encourage you as well. If you're enjoying this show, to subscribe, review, and share this podcast. If you are enjoying it and you think that your next door neighbor will enjoy it too, make sure that you send them the link and tell them to listen to the podcast episode that really you feel like is important for them. Thank you so much for listening to fabric of folklore. Once again, I am Vanessa White Rogers, and until next time, keep the folk alive.