Fabric of Folklore

Fairy Tale Flip - Ep 9: Finn McCool and the Giant's Causeway

• Fabric of Folklore • Season 2

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Do you know the Celtic tale of Finn McCool and the Giant's Causeway? In episode 9 of Fairy Tale Flip, Vanessa and Donna dive deep into the giant, the hero, and the origin of the story of Finn McCool and his band of warriors called the Fianna. We explore the geological characteristics named for Finn in both Ireland and Scotland. We explore the nuances between legend, folktale, and fairy tale, highlighting Finn's historical backdrop, his transformation into a giant, how he was raised by two warrior foster mothers, as well as his notable tale involving the Salmon of Knowledge. The conversation touches on Finn's duality of intellect and strength, his multiple wives, and the decline of Celtic mythology in popular culture.

Links:
irishmyths.com
Finn McCool (read by Vanessa)

Notes:
•🧚 Introduction and Story Overview (00:04 - 10:48)
•Vanessa and Donnelly introduce "Fairy Tale Flip" podcast
•Summary of Finn McCool and the Giant's Causeway legend
•Discussion on geological explanation vs. mythological story
•Timeline of Irish history provided for context
•📚 Finn McCool's Background and Legends (10:48 - 22:33)
•Clarification on differences between legend, folktale, and fairy tale
•Finn McCool identified as a legend, based on a possible real person
•Discussion on Finn's son Oisin and his role in preserving stories
•Exploration of Finn's transformation from normal-sized to giant
•Introduction of the Salmon of Knowledge story
•🦸 Finn McCool's Characteristics and Feats (22:33 - 32:53)
•Finn's portrayal as both brawn and brain in different stories
•Discussion on Finn's multiple wives, including a deer
•Exploration of the Fianna, the band of warriors led by Finn
•Mention of Finn's healing powers and moral ambiguity
•🗺️ Cultural Significance and Geographical Impact (32:53 - 43:27)
•Finn McCool's importance in Irish culture and mythology
•Geographical locations attributed to Finn (Giant's Causeway, Isle of Man, Fingal's Cave)
•Discussion on the decline of Celtic mythology in popular culture
•Comparison with Greek mythology's prevalence
•🔮 Reflections and Future Plans (43:27 - 53:05)
•Hosts share their favorite Finn McCool stories
•Discussion on the Salmon of Knowledge and its significance
•Plans for future episodes and request for listener suggestions
•Encouragement for listeners to subscribe and engage

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Vanessa Y Rogers:

All right, welcome. Welcome to fairy Tale Flip. My name is Vanessa Y. Rogers of fabric of folklore. Look at me remembering my own podcast name. Last time I forgot my own podcast name. And my co host is Donnelly fields with doorways to learning and scaffolding magic. And every month, we come together to do a monthly episode of fairy tale Flip, where we kind of flip a fairy tale on its head and unpack all of its beautiful underlying hidden messages and secret passages and kind of discover the beautiful and I the ugly of this story. So this month we chose Finn McCool, which is from irish mythology, and it is a story that I had never heard before. Have you ever heard it before?

Donna Lee Fields:

I never heard it before, nope. And I haven't really studied irish mythology, so I love knowing about this because you learn a lot about the history of Ireland, people of Ireland, what their priorities are. So this is wonderful.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yes, I agree. I haven't learned a lot about celt mythology as well. I did have someone come on as a podcast hostess, as a guest on my show to talk about Halloween. And of course, there's a lot of connection between the Celts and Halloween, so we talked a little bit about that, but that is as far as I've gotten into celt mythology. So I. This was really interesting to dive into. And so I think Donna is going to give us a summary.

Donna Lee Fields:

Yes. And before that, I want to encourage everybody to watch Vanessa's podcast because you have the most diverse guests. It's so wonderful. I am impressed every time by the diversity of how you choose them and what their specialties are. So please watch them. And my podcast is on hiatus, so I'm not going to encourage you to watch that right now.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

But there's lots of past episodes that people can watch that are all about the beauty of education.

Donna Lee Fields:

Thank you, Vanessa. Very well said.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Perfect.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay, so let's get into it, Vanessa, because, as you said, it's a little different. And this is going to be a fun conversation because even you and I aren't really sure where we're going to go with it. So let's just explore and see where it leads us. Okay?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah. It's going to be a labyrinth. Labyrinth conversation.

Donna Lee Fields:

It's going to be a labyrinth, and it's not going to be a flip this time, because when we create on the name fairy tale flip, it was about turning the fairy tale on its belly and looking at it from different perspectives. And this one is not necessarily finding a different meaning in the story, but all of its tangents. So I think that's really interesting about where it's going to lead us. Does that sound good? Okay, so we always start with a little summary of the story. In case someone hasn't listened to. We always record the story. And Vanessa has them on her YouTube channel. I have them on my YouTube channel. And we love stories, so we encourage you to go and watch that. Finn McCool is Vanessa reading this legend, and it's very quick. So she's telling the version that was recorded by the irish monks in medieval times, but it really goes back much further than that. So really quickly, Finn McCool was created in what's now known as the. He created the giant's causeway so that he could reach Scotland right across the waters and fight his rival, the scottish giant Benadonner, who's also known as the red Giant. And he didn't want to get his feet wet, so he threw rocks in the water, and it traveled from Ireland to Scotland. So he started running across to confront his nemesis. But halfway across, he saw Benadaner in the distance and realized that he was really big and much bigger than he expected. So he turned around and ran home, and he told his wife unag everything. But in the meantime, Benadana used the causeway that Finn himself had created because he was ready to fight. And he brought it to Finn's home turf. And so when he got there, he knocks on the door, and he demanded a fight. Well, Finn's wife, as most wives do, very clever. And using her brain instead of just brawn, she had a plant, and she covered Finn in a blanket and made him look as if he were a baby in a crib. A big. A giant baby. And she let Benadona in. She told him that Finn was away and that he'd be right back. But meantime, she gives him a loaf of bread, and she'd hidden a knife in it. And so when Benadir started eating it, the knife breaks his teeth. And she said, oh, poor thing. Finn eats that every day. So then Benadana got a little scared about who this Finn really was. And then he looks across the room and sees this giant baby, and he's thinking, if that's Finn's baby, good lord, how big is Finn himself? So he turned around and flees, and he goes all the way back to the causeway, breaking the causeway. So there's only a little bit left on the Ireland side and a little bit left on the Scotland side. And that's what we now know as the giant's causeway in Ireland. If you go to the Finland's cave, on the scottish island. You'll see it there also. So what Vanessa and I really want to do is encourage you to look at the pictures of the giant's causeway. The rocks are identical on both sides of the water. And you decide whether you think the giant's causeway was created by fin or maybe by what the geologists say. They said there was an intense volcanic eruption. It occurred 60 million years ago, and it forced molten rock through the upper layers of the chalk, and it formed a plateau of volcanic rock. This cooled into ball sick columns. So decide which one you believe and why. I don't. Vanessa, would I put you on the spot if I ask you which one you believe?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Oh, yes. Well, I always lean towards scientific explanation. I do very much, obviously, enjoy a good folktale or a legend, but I do find it very fascinating that it is identical on. On both sides. So I think that's really interesting. And I also found the shapes of the basalt, the volcanic columns, to be. They're hexagonal, which is the same shape that a bee makes in its hive. So I thought that was really interesting because I can't imagine that how, you know, volcano when it's like, you know, coming up and coming down. I'm not a geologist, so I don't really understand all of the ins and outs of. Sorry, that was my phone, of how that would cause it to be a hexagon. Like, it just doesn't seem to compute in my head how that lava would come up and shape just like, you know, a perfect hexagon. And they say, and I've never been. Have you been to the giant's causeway?

Donna Lee Fields:

I think I was there, believe it or not, but I didn't remember I was at a part where they didn't have these hexagons. You couldn't see them on the other side.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Okay. So they say it looks like a giant jigsaw puzzle. Like you're just walking on a giant jigsaw puzzle. It looks beautiful. It looks really stunning. So now I kind of want to go, but, I mean, I definitely want to go, but it looks really just unique. I mean, I've been to lots of different places in the world, and I've never seen a structure quite like that. So I can see why people would come up with this type of story. What about you? What are your thoughts?

Donna Lee Fields:

Listen, I will always lean towards the fairy tale. Sorry. Always. Always. I don't care what the geologists say. And just like you're saying, how in the world did that happen? I'm going for Finn and throwing the steps over so he didn't get his feet wet.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Fantastic. Fantastic.

Donna Lee Fields:

Yeah. All right. So. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

I was just going to say, what were your first thoughts about this story? What did you like about it? What did you not like about it?

Donna Lee Fields:

Well, I love that question, but what I'd really like to do is we're both using the word story, and I think we need to really define whether it was a legend, a folk tale, or fairy tale. So with your expertise, would you mind clarifying the difference, please?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yes. So usually a legend is around a true place or a true person. And so it takes a person like, you can think of american legends such as Paul Bunyan. That's one of our most famous legends, and his famous ox blue. And they were both said to be giants. And they. Sorry, my dog distracted me. His voice is over here. And he was based off of a true person. And all sorts of different stories came out of this one person. But a lot of times the story becomes so far fetched and so far removed from the real place or the real time or the real person that they are no longer truly connected to him. But it has anchor. And then a folk tale is generally an orally told tale that was passed on through generations and is retold across different cultures. Sometimes it's just in one culture, but a lot of times, folktales will spread to different places. And then a fairy tale generally is a story that is written down. Now, when we unpack a lot of the fairy tales that you and I look at, a lot of times we find these fairy tales are actually taken from folk tales, but they have an attributed author, someone who actually wrote it down and published it. And so usually when you talk about a fairy tale has someone that you attribute it to. So we often referred to the Grimm's brother fairy tales, but those are all folk tales because the Grimm brothers were basically the first folklorist. And they went around Germany trying to discover what the. The origin of these folk tales were. And then they wrote them in a book and they published them. And so all these, a lot of the fairy tales that we're familiar with from Germany are attributed to the Grimm brothers, but they didn't write. They didn't write themselves. They collected those stories. So I think that's really interesting, but that's basically the distinctions between those three.

Donna Lee Fields:

Oh, my goodness. You're so good at clarifying that I still would not be able to. I've listened to you two or three times I still am not willing. I would never be able to explain it. So the question is, what is this a legend, a folk tale or a fairy tale? I think it's clear that it's not a fairy tale. So if I add a little bit, and we started talking about this, that Finn McCool is actually based on a person that probably lived in the third century, and obviously it's grandicized. He might have done some of this. He might have been a hunter, a fighter. He had incredible parents. We don't know. Knowing that it might be based on a real person, would this make it a legend or a folk tale?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Definitely a legend because it has anchor in a time, a place, or person. So it's definitely anchored to a time period. And so, like, usually when you have a fairy tale, you say once upon a time, so it's not like any specific time, but this is. These stories are generally from the second and third century BC. And I think that there is one particular king that they were. I can't remember what the king's name was. I'm going to find it eventually, but it's during one particular king's and period of time in celtic mythology. I did find a little timeline, which I found kind of helpful for me because I kind of like trying to understand when things are based off of other events that were happening. So this is a little timeline that I found. Okay, so the first evidence of man in Ireland. This is very, very far back, 9700 BC. That's the first evidence of man being in Ireland. Okay. Second and third century BC is when this is attributed to. And this is proto historic Gaelic Ireland, which means pre writing. That particular culture doesn't have a writing system. However, there are other cultures that have a writing system that noted that culture. So the Celts themselves don't have a writing system during this time, but other cultures know about them and are writing about them, that when they come into contact with them. I had to look up that term. I didn't know it before the fourth century. This is when St. Patrick arrived to Ireland and brings Christianity. So after the finian Finn McCool time period, it was a group of warriors.

Donna Lee Fields:

The Finnians? Yeah. Okay.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

The Fianna are the group of warriors. Yeah. Right. Writing is introduced in the 6th century. So I'm not really clear, because I know St. Patrick, you know, he has writing, so I'm not really sure. Maybe it's more, like widespread people are more coming up with writing. I'm not really clear on probably not writing.

Donna Lee Fields:

Probably not just the priest because at first, it was just the priests who knew how to write and had paper, which was very expensive.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

8Th century is when all the viking raids are happening and settlements are being made via the Vikings. And then the Book of Kells is the next century. The. I don't know if you're familiar with the Book of Kells. It's an illuminated manuscript of the Gospel, and there's a whole. There's a very. There's a wonderful animated movie about the Book of Kells. It's really beautiful. I highly recommend it. And that was the 9th century. And so for me, it just helps me to get this timeline in my head of, like, all the different things that are happening in Ireland. So this story, Finn McCool, is the second and third century in Ireland. Is that helpful at all for you, the timeline?

Donna Lee Fields:

I'm sure that the listeners appreciate this, just to give it context. Sure.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Okay, go ahead.

Donna Lee Fields:

That's your timeline. So I just want to add without being too fixated on, you know, details, but there's this wonderful site called irishmyths.com. And he has a family tree of thin McCool of the man. But it's kind of interesting because he starts off saying, this is the family tree of the man thing. Fion McCumail is another way of saying his name, but it's celtic, and I'm probably bastardizing his name horribly. So I apologize to all celtic scholars. And. But he has this wonderful family tree here. And what I love about the tree is I'm not sure if the king you were referring to is noir, the nect. Does that sound familiar? Because that's the king, apparently, where Finn McCool or the man Fion macromail descended from. But what I also really like about it is we know about Finn McCool because of his son Osine, who was Irish's greatest poet. And I find that fascinating. So whether it was the legend, Finn McCool's son, or the real man, there is a poet called Oisin who wrote down all of these stories for us. Well, how does that sound?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Right. So he is attributed to writing all these stories. And did you find anything about if he's connected to a true person?

Donna Lee Fields:

I think, I believe he was, because he really is getting credit for being Irish's greatest poethenne, Ireland's greatest poet. And so I don't think there's a question about whether he was real or not.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Okay. So I didn't find that he was actually a true person because he is very much still mythological because. Okay, so he is said to have been born a Finn McCool, and then he goes to a land of the young, the everlasting. And he comes back because he misses the Fianna, who, like were talking about before, they're the band of warriors who finicul was said to have led. And so by the time he comes back to Ireland from this mythological place, all the Fianna have died, all of his brethren have died. And so he is actually giving his tales to St. Patrick, as when he returns, he is, oh, the land of the every young. And when he returns, St. Patrick is trying to convert him to Christianity. And Osin, I'm not sure how to say his name. I'm really sorry, is having nothing of it. And I found this little quote, and it's from the medieval writings from the finian cycle, which this is his writing is from. And he's talking to St. Patrick, and he says, the Fianna. The Fianna said, patrick, will you ever tire of talking of them? And he says, before I met you, I never met a man or woman who did not wish to speak of the Fianna. If you had seen us on the field of battle, shaking our spears at the frosty dawn of, you would have begged to join us. But I did not see them, nor will I ever see them, if God has mercy on my soul. This is St. Patrick talking for the Fianna. Every one of them are in hell. And Osean replies, if they are in hell, then they must like it there, answered Osean, else they would have killed your devil and torn hell down. And so, yeah, so I. So I don't know. I didn't actually do a whole lot of looking into himself, but. So he lived for. He is said to have lived for a very long time in the land of the ever young. And then he just returned because he missed his brethren. But they were all past.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay, so I would say, vanessa, I would say, in the end, does it matter if he was one person, if he really lived, if he didn't live. It was a compilation of different writings. I think it's the same as Homer, for instance. Was Homer one person? It's the same as Shakespeare. You know, with Shakespeare's writing, was it really the man named Shakespeare? I'm going to say no, and I know that those are fighting words, and maybe one day we'll talk about that, but no, but it's a great name, Shakespeare. Anyway, going back to Osine, I think that I didn't really research it either, because there's such a. A fine line with what I was researching between people who were convinced he was a real person and then said, yeah, but this is all based on mythology, and how much can we really confirm going back so far? And in the end, we have the stories, and that's the important part.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yes. So, you know, were talking before we. We hopped on about this story in particular, and. And I was finding it really difficult because I had all these questions that I wanted answered and that I didn't really have answered at all because, you know, I really wanted to kind of find out if he was connected to a real person. And yet, like you said, it was. We just answered that question. But what I did find was that there are four groupings of irish mythology that are foundational to Ireland.

Donna Lee Fields:

Interesting. Tell us.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

So Finn McCool is one of them, and he's referred to his as the finnian cycle. So this Finn McCool story that you told and I told on the YouTube channel story is just one of. I don't know how many stories there are, but there are at least 20 of this one particular person, Finn McCool. And it goes from his boyhood, pre boyhood, to his death. Well, actually, we're gonna talk about his death because he's not actually said to died.

Donna Lee Fields:

That's right.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

And sometimes it's called the finnian cycle, and sometimes it's called the osean cycle because he's the one who's attributed to have written it. But the other three foundational stories of celtic mythology is the Ulster cycle, the mythological cycle, and the king cycle. And I didn't really do any research on them, but they are the most prolific body of narrative in the gaelic tradition and is still a vital part of the irish folklore today. So that was part of why it was hard to research the stories, because there were so many stories attributed to Finn McCool. And one thing I found really interesting is that this giant causeway story that we, our unpacking, is the only one that shows him as a giant. Did you look into his size at all or anything about that?

Donna Lee Fields:

Well, it's interesting because when you look at images or illustrations of him, he's a normal sized man, if so. And the other thing is, most of his action, all the tales are told of him in southern Ireland, and yet the giant causeway is in northern Ireland, and he's all of a sudden a giant. So, yeah, these stories get aggrandized, and it's what you want to believe in the end.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Well, so I found something interesting that talked a little bit about that. They said that especially when the Christians came in to Ireland, there was a transformation of the gods, the celtic gods, into. The celtic gods went underground and became fairy folk.

Donna Lee Fields:

Yeah.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

And the heroes. Yeah, they became smaller, slightly less powerful, but only slightly. Only slightly. And then the heroes became aggrandized. They became larger. And so Finn McCool was not a God. He was a hero. And so in some stories like this, the giant causeway, he becomes larger. So I thought that was really interesting, and I really wanted to learn more about that, but I did not find what I was looking for. Did you?

Donna Lee Fields:

No, because it's interesting. My gut reaction is that the church had to find a way to bring the people into their sort of family, and they needed to diminish the power of the stories that they were telling themselves and the heroes that they worshiped. They diminished the size, literally, you know, they diminished the size of their hero, of most of the folk. And yet Finn became a giant, which is, in a sense, comical. So you can't take him as seriously because he's a giant. He's not just. Gods are often described as, with human form and a lot of beauty and strong, but they're not ever considered to be giants. And so, for me, it's just another way of the church trying to take control of the story and make it seem less powerful than it actually was.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Right, right. Yeah. And I think, you know, the Catholic Church did a lot of, like, allowing the. The people to keep different parts of their traditions alive, but not make it part of their religion necessarily. Right. So that was kind of how they. How they kind of allow them to keep some traditions, but encourage them to gravitate towards their way of monotheism. Right?

Donna Lee Fields:

No. Giving them different names. Keeping the tradition, but giving them different names, and adding in the saint and adding in different christian symbols. And so it was a way to transition the people into owning themselves as part of the church. There's a really fun part of the story, Vanessa, where, if we're going to believe it was Finn or Finn the character, and you have this in your notes, and it was talked about, where Finn was brought up by two foster mothers. Do you remember this part?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yes. So there's a whole backstory to his father. And I didn't read too much into the backstory, but he's in danger because of who his father is. And so to warrior women, raise him in secret in the woods.

Donna Lee Fields:

Right. Okay. So I read this, and I loved it because I thought, oh, my goodness. So for the non binary people in the audience, this is perfect for them because he's raised by two foster mothers. Now, could they have been lovers? Could they have been lesbians? Who knows? Maybe. Maybe not. But I just love it because there's something for everyone in these stories, and this is part of it, where two women were raising him, and he became one of Ireland's greatest warriors.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Right. And I love that they are warriors themselves, and they teach him how to be a warrior.

Donna Lee Fields:

That's right. Right.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Okay. Yeah, I love that. Another story that is really. I think it's probably the second most popular story of Sid McCool is the stamen of knowledge. Did you read a little bit about that? So I thought this was interesting, because when I first read the story of the giants causeway, his wife, Unag, is really attributed to catching this entire plan and beating Benadaner without Finn having to do anything. Right. Because he. He hightailed it out, and his wife kind of takes control and scares off the red man, the scottish giant that has come for Finn McCool. And so I I don't really. I didn't get that he was supposed to be a mandev of wisdom, but he is attributed to being a very wise person. So I found that was kind of a strange juxtaposition. What did you. What were your thoughts about that?

Donna Lee Fields:

Well, because, first of all, it's the wife being the wise one, and he wasn't really. He was a little. Pretty dense at that point. And it was. And it's about Braun versus brains and about how brains really does win out, because after that, he. One of his. One of his quests was to find a salmon, something like that. I'm not really sure what the whole story was. And the salmon was cooking, and he put his finger in the pat, which in the pan, which, again, is not very intelligent. So he puts his thumb in his mouth to stop the burning, and it turns out the salmon was the salmon of wisdom. And so he inherited all the wisdom from the salmon, and then he became intelligent, and he was known as an incredibly wise warrior. So.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

So he. So I'll give a little bit more. He was under the tutelage of a druid who is basically a high ranking priest class who holds the wisdom and knowledge of traditions in the celtic traditions. And his name is FinNegas. And he had been fishing for this particular fish for seven years. He's been waiting for this fish, the salmon of wisdom, for seven years. And with Finn's help, Finn McCool's help, he actually is able to get the fish. So Finn is not actually supposed to taste of the fish. This fish is supposed to go to this druid who has been tutoring him. And Finn, to his credit, he wasn't actually trying to eat the fin of the salmon of wisdom. He just burns himself, like you said, and sucks where he got the blister. So. So maybe. So maybe you're right. Maybe the giant causeway happens prior to the salmon of knowledge, because it doesn't seem like he's that intelligent during this giant causeway incident.

Donna Lee Fields:

No. And again, you know, he's a big giant, and we don't often think of giants as being intelligent. And when we read about the summit of wisdom, he is a normal sized man. Again, by illustrations, he's not considered to be a giant. By that time, he is. I mean, but we talk. I mean, there's the appearance of Finn McCool. If you go in and look for the appearance of Finn McCool, it says he was a giant warrior. His height was nearly 54ft, but then it says he was known as a fair person. In other words, his hair and skill color were white or bright, and he was considered the normal size of a man. So it depends on who you're reading about, who's writing it, what you want to believe.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah. And I'm not familiar with these stories, but the acquisition of his sum of knowledge is likened to two other stories that I found, but I am not very familiar with them. The welsh story of Guian Bach, the tasting of the cauldron of knowledge, and then Bafanir's heart. Did you ever hear about those two?

Donna Lee Fields:

No, that's not.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

No, but those are supposed to be, like, similar stories to this amen of wisdom evidence.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay. Because there's another warrior that's often compared to Finn McCool, which. Whose name is Ku Chulain. Does that sound familiar?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yes. Yeah.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay. And they're talking about, you know, just their heroic feats and who was better, who cares, really, who was better? But they also compare these two to King Arthur. And these legends were recycled, it seems. But again, if you go into it, there are sites that are comparing them. Who was. Who was more of a hero, Finn McCool or Cuchulainn or King Arthur and why? So it's kind of fun to compare their feats, but in the end, we're really just focusing on Finn McCool and why he was celebrated by so many different generations. Right?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah. I think, you know, the similarities for the Arthur and his knights that really came home for me with the sleeping. So according to most popular accounts, he is not dead. Right? Finn McCool is not dead. Rather, he sleeps in a cave surrounded by his warriors, the Fianna. And one day, he will awaken to Finn Ireland once again in its greatest need. And that is very similar to the legend of Arthur. He and his knights are said to be sleeping and be waiting to be awakened once more to defendez their kingdom. I guess so. I thought that was. That was a really interesting. That. Were there other similarities that you found between the Arthur cycles?

Donna Lee Fields:

Well, there's one. It's another version of his death. It says, like, king Arthur, they believe that he's not really dead, and he's. He's hunting with his tribe, and if we blow the horn three times, the magic horn of his tribe, he'll come back and defend the darkest hour, which is you're saying just what King Arthur is known to. I mean, he'll come back. It's like the second coming of Christ. People need this type of myth to believe that there's answer or a resolution to the chaos going around us. So I like that. Of the three, there's three different versions, and one is in the cave. One is that he was defeated in battle, and he was, unfortunately, beheaded. And then another one is that he slipped in a river while he was trying to catch the salmon and banged his head on a rack and drowned. Or maybe it was another salmon of these three versions, which is the one you would like to believe.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Oh, I hadn't. I hadn't heard the other two. So I like the one of him sleeping in the cave or underground. I like that concept.

Donna Lee Fields:

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

I don't particularly go for the beheading. I mean, that's not generally my vibe.

Donna Lee Fields:

I know. Just the whole thought of it is just so the opposite of where head is supposed to be. It's supposed to stay on the body.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Another thing, you know, going back to his childhood, that I found interesting was that he wasn't born Finn McCool, which, a side note, we say. We're saying Finn McCool, but in, like you said before, there, I actually found a site that, like, noted all of the different written versions of how. How to write this, and there were over 40. 40 different ways to write. So, you know, I'm writing it the most anglicized way, but there are 40 plus different ways to write within McCool, so.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay. Because I just found two of them. So I admire your persistence.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Well, it was. It was. I didn't have to go searching. Someone had already noted all of them together. I just counted.

Donna Lee Fields:

So, one thing I really like is, I did not know this before, because we often associate the Irish with mic or MC Mac or Mac. And I never understood that Mac means the son of. So McCool is the son of. His father was cool. Or if Mac Kumail is a son of Kumail. And his father actually was a really legendary figure in irish mythology also. And he was known just as Finn McCool for bravery, strength, and heroism. And that's what he, people really needed in Ireland at the time.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

So that's, he wasn't born Finn McCool. So his original name started with a D, and I'm not going to try and pronounce it, but he was renamed from, after the village of Ballyfin. And it's.

Donna Lee Fields:

It's.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Which means the town of Fionn, or Finn, the fair white town. And there are a couple versions to that story, but he was tricked by a witch to dive down into a lake to get her something. And when he returns up to the top, he's an old man. He's a, he's a boy at this point, and he comes up as an old man, and the Fianna make the. Makes the witch return him, return his youth to him. But from that event, his hair is bleached white, and he becomes very fair skinned and very white, although he was probably fair skinned already.

Donna Lee Fields:

I would think a warrior has darker skin, so maybe that is new.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Maybe. But, you know, there's not a lot of sun in Ireland. I. There's, he's out in the forest under the rain.

Donna Lee Fields:

He probably had a helmet on most of the time. Okay. Yeah, you win. Okay.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

So, yeah, so his name changes after that.

Donna Lee Fields:

Interesting, interesting. Okay, so we have about, I think we have about 510 more minutes. And what is the, what do we want most to our audience to sort of consider about Finn McCool's story? I like that in one part, he really is brawn, and the other part where you're emphasizing he was, and he was known to be very intelligent, especially after burning his thumb and putting in his mouth. He's really brilliant, right?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah. In fact, can I read this little part that I found? And this is from the, one of the cycles, the finian cycle, the writings from the stamen of wisdom in that moment, like a tidal wave that covers the land and tears apart everything in its path, all knowledge was revealed to Finn. He heard the muttering of the trees and the song of the stars. He felt the beating wings of every bird in the sky. The great beasts of the seabed gazed into his eyes. Sunfire burned in his blood. He knew every mind's desire, every heart secret. He witnessed the birth and death of gods. And that's from the story of the salmon of wisdom, which I really liked. I agree, from what you're saying, that he is not just Bron, he is also wisdom. And the Fianna, who were talking about before, the band of warriors, they're really interesting in themselves because they have to. I looked into them a little bit, and they're part of the early irish law. And as far as I can tell, that they were an actual group of men, and they kind of live off the land during the summer months, but during the winter months, they're kind of hired mercenaries, and they're fed by the nobles to keep law, and they are given food and shelter to help keep people in line. And then in the summer months, they just kind of are hired wherever they go, and they feed themselves off of the land. And they're supposed to be the most fierce warriors that have ever lived. And in order to be part of this group, you have to go through this really incredible, difficult initiation process, and you have to basically give. You have to no longer be a part of your family. Your family is the Fianna, and it's just a very tight knit group of men. And they studied poetry as well. Part of being a fianna means that you have to study poetry, which I thought was really interesting. They have a three mottos. Purity of heart, strength of limbs, and action to match our speech. So I thought that was. They seemed kind of an admirable group of people. And then they, after they're warriors, and they go off and they marry someone, and they have families, but during a certain amount of time period, when they're young, generally they.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay, so this is an interesting anecdote, because what turns out, and not all the stories relate this part of Finn's, the mythological Finn. He had a first wife. Unag was not his first wife. And his wife.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Oh, he has multiple wife.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay, so one of his wives was. He was supposed to marry this woman, and it turns out that she was in love with one of the gang. And. And he was so kind, as he said, okay, so we don't get married. He let her marry her. True love, who was one of these guys? The soldiers. But what he did do is later on, this guy was gored by a boar, and Finn had remarkable healing powers, and he could have healed his fellow soldier and the husband, who was supposed to be his first wife, and he did nothing, and so he let him die. So, on the one hand, very pure part. Yeah, yeah, I know.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

A little.

Donna Lee Fields:

A little ambiguous little, you know, cross messages there. But interesting anecdote. He was human. I shouldn't say he's human, because if he was a mythological character, but we gave him human characteristics. Not completely hero, not completely evil. A little bit of both.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah. Yes. That's interesting. Yeah. He had. He had several different wives. One of them was a deer, and I. And I think that is where his son Osun comes from.

Donna Lee Fields:

Yes. His son was a fawn, and he turned him out of a fawn into a boy. Yes. Very good. Very good. Yay.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah.

Donna Lee Fields:

We have done our research, Vanessa.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

This is a really interesting one. And I really encourage any irish individuals or anyone who studied celtic mythology to comment after hearing our conversation on what their thoughts are on Finn McCool, one of the things I did find, it was very important. Well, I was trying to find the importance of Finn McCool to the irish people, and that was one of the answers that I was having a really hard time finding. There is a. A political party named after Finn McCool. It's called the Fianna. The Fianna fees, something like that. Something along those lines. And it is still a current political party that is, I don't know how closely aligned they are to Finn's moral compass, you know, letting the man die.

Donna Lee Fields:

Who'S supposed to be a fellow soldier. So I'm not sure if that moral compass is something we want them to follow or not. So.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that I found interesting that I. I'm a little bit saddened about that. You know, in our cultures, I feel like greek mythology is something that people reference quite frequently, and not necessarily everybody knows all the different characters, but if you reference certain characters like Zeus or Athena, people have a general idea about these different gods and goddesses. But it used to be that people were well versed in celtic mythology. In fact, Napoleon was said to have slept with the book of stories under his pillow.

Donna Lee Fields:

Right.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah. But today, there's really. People don't reference celtic mythology, except for maybe in Ireland. You know, people have these ideas of what celtic mythology was, but no one really has characters in mind. Or if someone is mentioned, it's not like someone has a reference in their head, which I think is really sad to me. I think that there is a lot of value and depth to their mythology that I wish was more part of the greater culture, english speaking culture, when it's not. And it's interesting because greek mythology came from Greece and they don't speak English, but the Irish do. Why don't we have celtic mythology in our. In our current vocabulary?

Donna Lee Fields:

It's a really interesting observation. The Celtics, the whole culture has been pretty much discouraged ever since the conquistadores. We could say, you know, whoever came onto the, what is now the United Kingdom, they kept pushing the Celtics. They killed them first. They pushed them back into the land. They had the smallest piece of land. And I spent the summer in western Ireland, and many celtic teachers were part of the group there. And they said, they're celtic speakers. They don't insist their children speak celt. And they said if the celtic language disappeared from the planet, they would be very sad. Very sad. And yet they're not as motivated, you think they would be, to continue the language and the culture. So, as you say, why? Why is greek mythology so popular and something like Celtic isn't? It's a very small population. The greek population isn't that big either. But, you know, then we have to ask ourselves, there's japanese myths and there's israeli myths and Korean in every culture, african. Why don't we speak more about the continent of Africa and the myths on there in those countries? I think we're going to have to do that soon, Vanessa. But I really like the question, why? Why?

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah, I don't know why. They have kind of disappeared. And, you know, we have a lot of irish traditions that have been brought over from the Irish in America. You know, Halloween being one of the. One of them. The reason that Americans call soccer is because of the Irish. And so we have several things that are in America, you know, that we can attribute to Ireland and the irish people. And I just find it interesting that we have lost their mythology in our greater. In our greater cultures. And I. And I wish that it was more part of what our knowledge base.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay, well, we are on the forefront of bringing it back, Vanessa.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So, yes, I think this is an interesting conversation. And, you know, if anyone has, we want to hear from you. We want to hear what your thoughts were about this conversation. And what was your favorite story from the finian cycles? What was your favorite story that you came across? Did you like the giant causeways the best, or did you love it?

Donna Lee Fields:

I love the giant causeway, and I think, I believe you're so good at inclusion links. I want to make sure you have that link to the short comic strip video of the story of the giant causeway. It's really well done, and young children can watch it, but I like that one the best, just because it's so absurd. He doesn't want to get his feet wet, so he throws rocks across the water and then sees his foe and is so scared of him, he runs. I mean, it's just so funny. And that's who I consider a big hero.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

And we should. We should also note that he is attributed to creating the Isle of Man as well, because he picked up a giant rock and threw it at Benadonir, and it created the isle of man, and it. And then in its place was a giant lock. Lock. Ney me. I don't know how to say it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. In e a g h. That's right.

Donna Lee Fields:

At least you try, for goodness sake. At least you try, like, 120% for effort.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yay. Yay for effort. F for pronunciation.

Donna Lee Fields:

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Well, at least not to me. I'm sorry for all the celtic scholars out there.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

And then also, Fingal's cave in Scotland is attributed to his name, so there are multiple geographical locations that are attributed to Finn McCool, which is why he's such a foundational character to. To Ireland and Scotland, as well.

Donna Lee Fields:

So we want to know.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Oh, my favorite legend. You know, I kind of wish I'd read more about the dear wife. I didn't really focus on it because it didn't. I don't know why, but I I think I like the same of knowledge I would like if I was able to eat a fish and. And gain all of the knowledge in the world.

Donna Lee Fields:

And it just sacrificed itself for your wisdom. Did you ask the fish if it was okay? Another whole episode.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

The whole reason the fish hold all the wisdom is because his entire diet is of the holy tree hazelnuts. That's all the fish eats. Maybe we could just eat the holy tree hazelnut, thinking that wisdom.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay, I'm with you on that.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yeah, I think that was better to me. I like that one in part because he gains the knowledge accidentally. And also, I was very confused as to why Finn sucked his thumb for knowledge. Originally. I thought maybe it was kind of infant like, emphasizing him. Infantizing. What's the word I'm looking for? Making him. Making him like a baby. Like, what's the word I'm looking.

Donna Lee Fields:

Oh, my goodness. Now I can't even say.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Anyways, I thought that was so strange that he had to suck his thumb, and I was like, is he acting like a baby to get wisdom? That just seems very bizarre to me. But it makes more sense that he has a blister on his thumb from where he. He burned his thumb in a pan of burning fish, which is not very wise.

Donna Lee Fields:

No. And later, he became wise immediately. Okay, so.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

All right. All right. I think this. I think we've done it.

Donna Lee Fields:

Okay.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

We've done it again. Thank you to our fairy tale flip listeners for listening to this labyrinth of a fairy tale flip episode all about Finn McCool and the many different legends about him. And I don't think I mentioned. Please hit subscribe. If you're listening to the Fabric of Folklore podcast, hit subscribe. If you're listening or watching on Donnelly's Field, Donnelly Field's YouTube channel, make sure you hit subscribe for her educational videos and content. She has lots of education content on her scaffolding magic website as well. And what are we going to do next month? We're going to have to. So one reason we didn't do it live this month and last month was because I had an issue with Facebook and somehow my Facebook account got hacked and I'm not able to access my accounts right now, which is really sucky.

Donna Lee Fields:

We're not happy with Facebook right now.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Not from Facebook. Please. Yes, please give me back my account. So hopefully we'll be able to do a live again soon and we'll have to figure out how to do a poll if I can't get a, I can't get into my accounts again. But I would like if people could suggest fairy tales that they would like us to unpack a fairytale from any part of the region of the world. We like doing a stories from all over the world.

Donna Lee Fields:

Give us some really good ones so we can bastardize whatever language it originally was in.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

We do a great job and mispronouncing everything.

Donna Lee Fields:

There we go.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Yes. So give us all your suggestions of fairy tales and folktales that you would like us to unpack and flip on its head and discover it hidden truths or untruths. And until next time, keep the fairy tales alive.

Donna Lee Fields:

Bye, everyone. Thank you for listening. Thanks, Vanessa.

Vanessa Y Rogers:

Thanks, Donna.

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