Fabric of Folklore
Folktales can be strange, mystical, macabre and intriguing. Join us as we explore the stories, culture and people behind the folklore. We go beyond retelling the legends, myths and fairy tales of old. We look at the story behind the lore, behind the songs and traditions to understand more about what they mean, and their importance. These stories, many originating as oral histories, inform us of what it means to be human; what it means to be an integral part of this Earth. Stories of magic and wonder bind us. They connect us through invisible strands, like the gossamer fibers of a spiders web. Folktales have the power to demonstrate how, although we live in drastically different locals, our hearts and minds beat as one human race. We are weaving the fabrics of our past and present stories, to help us better understand ourselves and to awaken us to a more compassionate and caring world community. As we explore the meaning of existence through folklore we hope to inspire future generations to lead with love and understanding.
Fabric of Folklore
Ep 59: From Childhood to Disneyland: The Walt Disney Story with Phil Gramlich
You have heard of Walt Disney Parks but what do you know of Walt Disney, the man? Disney historian Phil Gramlick in episode 59 talks to us about Walt Disney's formative years, from his challenging childhood to the iconic creation of Mickey Mouse and Disneyland which has all been documented in his newly released book, "Walt and His Parks." Phil shares insights from his extensive interviews with Disney Legends and recounts Walt's unique storytelling methods, including the creation of the first full-length animated feature film, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937) which revolutionized the animation industry. We also chat about Disney’s adaptations of classic fairy tales and highlights the significant role of Walt's family and his brother Roy in supporting his vision. This is an episode you won't want to miss!
Links:
https://www.amazon.com/Walt-His-Park-Phil-Gramlich/dp/1683903420
Follow us:
Fabric of Folklore website
Welcome, folksy folks. Welcome to fabric of Folklore. I am your hostess, Vanessa Y. Rogers, and this is the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of folklore. This show is all about exploring the world of mythology, folk tales, fairy tales, and oral storytelling. Folklore is the expression of humans creating meaning from their world. I came across a folklore quote the other day by an american author and occasional illustrator of children's books. Her name is Nancy Willard. You might know her because she won the Newberry medal in 1982 for a visit to Williams Blake's Inn. But this is the quote. Armenian folklore has it that three apples fell from heaven, one for the teller of a story, one for the listener, and the third for the one who took it to heart. I found. Oh, sorry, that's not the end. What a pity. Heaven awarded no apple to the one who wrote the story down. So I was really curious about this arminian phrase, and I found that it's used in a similar fashion to how we say happily ever after at the end of fairy tales. And naively, years back, I thought that all fairy tales and all languages just ended with happily ever after. But in every different country, they have a different way of ending their fairy tales. And in Armenia they say they have a version of this apple. Three apples fell from the sky. It's not as ubiquitous, but it's one of the common phrases that said at the end of fairy tales. And I love this. So that is really what this podcast is about. It's about exploring. It's about celebrating and embracing those differences and similarities and finding those connections in our humanness. So that sounds like a podcast you want to continue to listen to. Hit that subscribe button, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcasting platform. And if you are a subscriber, thank you so much. And consider writing us a review because it's so helpful for new podcast listeners to be able to find us if listeners have given as a five star review and or written us a lovely little message. So thank you so much for those who have written us a review. And our show is going to be really fun and exciting today and really appropriate for the summertime. It's all about Walt Disney, the man and his work. And our guest today is Phil Gramlick. Is that how you say your last name? I forgot to ask.
Phil:That was really good. I mean, you did almost. Almost got it. Perfect. It's not the a is a like.
Vanessa:Okay.
Phil:Yeah, very cool.
Vanessa:Okay, perfect. He is the podcast host of Ear to their travel and also the author of Walt and his Parks. A curated oral history of fun, interesting stories that shape the people, culture, and the legacy of some of his favorite places on earth. He was hit with the Walt Disney World bug at the age of 13, and five to six years later, he became a cast member at the Disney's animal kingdom, making magic for guests each and every day. And his love for Disney has continued. So thanks so much, Phil, for joining us on this podcast.
Phil:Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. These are always so much fun to do something that's a little bit different than I'm used to talk Disney, but a little bit of a different way. It's awesome. Thank you for having me.
Vanessa:Thanks. Well, so were talking about this before we got started, but tell us a little bit about your journey to writing this book.
Phil:So really quick, like, do I slouch? Do I not slouch? You gotta, like, sit back in the seat, right? Excuse me. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so I'm a former cast member like you. I met my wife in Walt Disney World. We were cast members. We got engaged in Walt Disney World. I bought my first. I. But we got. We honeymooned in Disneyland. My first trip to Disneyland. Yeah, we're Disney family. My daughter, my youngest daughter took her first trip of three months. My twins took their first trip at six months. Like, yeah, I. So I. We were cast members, and then I bought. We were dating and took a trip to. My wife and I took a trip to Ireland when were dating. England in Ireland. And I bought the Bob Thomas. I had never. I had known about waltz. I was a cast member. I did, you know, traditions, which is the cast member class that you take to train and learn all about the Disney. The history of the Disney company and Walt. So I had known that I had a pretty. A little bit better than the surface level knowledge. And we took a trip to Ireland and England. And it rains to freaking all the time there. And you see the sights, but you do a lot of reading because you're inside a lot. Like, you just like, okay, that was great. Well, fucking in palace. Let's go inside and get lunch. So my wife and I love talking each other. We both love to read, too. So we brought books. That's the book I bought on that trip, and I've read it twice on that trip. I was there. We're there for two weeks. I read that book twice. And ever since then, I've been hooked. Well, first, my first trip to Walt Disney World. But then this is what made me very interested in Walt the person, so.
Vanessa:That, you know, I remember reading books in different places. I remember reading a memoir to Geisha when I was traveling on a train to Switzerland and being really confused, like, finding. By looking up and realizing I wasn't in Japan. Did you have that experience while you were in Ireland? Like, being so immersed in your book and, like, thinking maybe you were in Disney world?
Phil:That's really funny. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. You know what's funny is I have a memory like that, but it's different. I I. When I was. This is. Sorry, this is way off topic. When I was 19 years old, I worked in a paper mill, and, Or 18 years old. I'm sorry. 18 years old, I worked in a paper mill where my dad worked. My dad was an operating engineer. Hard working guy, manual labor almost his whole career. And I did that one summer, and it was awful. But I I remember I took a Stephen King book out with me, and I worked an overnight shift, and I had, the book I had was called Nightmares and Dreamscapes, and it's one of Stephen King's short storybooks. Right? Outside in the dark, pitch black, waiting for these coal trucks to arrive, reading freaking scary horror books. And I'll never forget. I would. I would scare the crap out of myself and get up and run into the building because I was so scared. But, yeah, that's so. Yo, I didn't have that. I don't know if I had that moment in Ireland, but I definitely had that moment reading books. Absolutely. Yeah.
Vanessa:Yeah. Well, I did. That reminds me. Sorry, we're getting off topic, but I did get to see the. On that same trip, I did a study abroad, and so I traveled to see the castle that the Disney castles are built after Norfolk.
Phil:I was going to say, if you're going to ask me to pronounce it, you better forget about it, because I can't do it.
Vanessa:I think that's how it's pronounced. I'm probably butchering it. I'm sorry. Germans.
Phil:I think that's exactly right in Germany.
Vanessa:But it's so beautiful. Have you seen it?
Phil:I've not. I've never been to Germany. Even though that's my last name, is very german. I've never been. It's definitely on my own. I listed. I'm a travel agency owner who hates to fly, though. So, like.
Vanessa:How long does it take for a boat to get across the waters now?
Phil:I don't know. I mean, it can't be that long, right? Like, no, we do. My agency we get a. We sell. So Disney has a hard time booking the cruises where they move the ships. So the ship is going from Port Canaveral in Florida to Dover, England. Who wants to take that cruise? Not really guests. So they sell to people like me who own the traffic to get a super low rate. And I can take my family and we get to go. That's. That's who gets. That's how I get to do that. So someday, my kids, I have a 13 year old and 211 year olds now, so they're very busy with activities after school. Maybe someday.
Vanessa:Well, awesome. Okay, let's get back on Sunday. Okay. So how did you do your research for this book?
Phil:So, my podcast was first and foremost. I started it in 20. I think it's 16. And I just started asking, you know, I've read a lot of books. I mean, if you write on the other side of my studio here. Excuse me, I'm sorry. Root beer is the problem. Get it? But I have, like, literally, like, a giant bookshelf full of almost only Walt and Disneyland books. Ever since the first book I told you I bought, I just been buying them. Whenever Walt comes out, I buy it. I read it cover to cover. I'm kind of insane. I might be obsessed, right? When I started the podcast, I did this thing called word of the week. I did word of the week shows, and I would go, like assessment street. I would say, this week's word of the week is brought to you by the letter a. A for Latin or b for, you know, whatever. It's c for campground. And I would do a whole episode in the fort Worth of this campground that really got me interested to be like, oh, man, let's find out more about this stuff. And then I. Then on, then I was browsing Disney Legends websites, and I was on Roly Crump's website. Rolly Crump passed away last year, sadly, but lived into his nineties and was just a giant, kind hearted, just sweet guy and just one of Walt's incredible artists. And I was like, this is, I don't know, seven, eight years ago. I saw he had a website. I was looking at his art, and then I saw a contact, and I said, oh, what's the worst that's gonna happen? He'll say no, right? So I click contact. I wrote a message, hey, I'm just started a Disney podcast. I would love to talk to Rolly Crump for 15 minutes. What do you think? Now, this is eight years ago. Podcasts, nobody. They weren't what they. Where they are now, where everybody was trying podcasts, right? Like, there weren't. There was maybe 30 Disney podcasts at the time. I was one of them. And his wife Marie wrote me back within a day and said, we'd love to do it. Yeah. And I. On a Friday, I dropped my kids off of preschool, and I got to my office, and I'm talking to rolly Crump for episode eleven of my show. And I had no business talking to Rolly Crump, right? I read his book. I got. I bought his book and read it cover to cover within. Within a day. Like, I was like, oh, no, the whole book. And I was so nervous and so scared. And Rowley was very hard of hearing at the time. And when we got on the phone, his wife Marie explained to me, she said, listen, he can't hear, so you're going to need me for the interview. All right? And she said, I'll ask him everything you ask him, and then he'll just answer the questions. So she did. And Marie was awesome. They asked for 15 minutes. They gave me 2 hours. We talked for 2 hours. And, yeah, that's just one of the stories. Like, you know, it was. And then it was Bob Gurr and then it was Julie Andrews, and then it was Floyd Norman. I got to talk to all these incredible Marty Sklar and just, I got to meet them and get their stories. And, I mean, if you're nice, you know, he's got to be nice. Nice. Ask the night. The nice. And the worst thing they can say is, no, it really is. And then I've gotten a million. I told you before we hit recording million nose in the book, I got a million no's in a podcast, too. I just expect nose. And if you get a yes, you're like, oh, whoa, I got yes. Yes. So, yeah, I hope that answered the question in a roundabout way.
Vanessa:So you. You chatted with a lot of people. So, Rolly, what was his last name? Crump.
Phil:Crump. Yeah. C r u m p.
Vanessa:Who else was significant in Walt's life that was alive to be able to talk with? How long ago did Walt die?
Phil:He died in 1966. I was born in 1978. So we had a nice little gap between his death and before I was born.
Vanessa:Yeah.
Phil:I mean, you know, the one. The few I talked to, there's still a bunch of folks that are still around that work from, like, Julie Andrews. I spoke with Mary Poppins herself. That was incredible. Bob Gurrden. Bob Gurr is the one who designed the Matterhorn the monorails, the submarines, the autopia vehicles. Pretty much, it's been said, if it's on wheels. And in Disneyland, Bob Gurr designed it. I reached out to his manager. He was a guy for the first year of my podcast, I chased, and I was like, I really got to find Bob Gurr. And I couldn't find his email, and I couldn't find his phone number, and I got really good at tracking down people, which is kind of creepy. I have a funny story about that if you have a second. I can tell that in 1 second, but I'll tell that one in a second. But I think I got pretty good at tracking people down. So I tracked down Bob's manager, and I said, listen, will Bob give me 15 minutes to talk on my podcast? And then I'll plug. He's doing a Walt land bus tour. It's a bus around southern California where all kinds of stops that are important in the history of the life of Walt Disney. And I said, I'll plug it if he gives me 50 minutes. And his manager wrote me back a half hour later and was like, yeah. Bob said yes. And that, yeah. And that led to me and Bob developing a friendship. And I've been friends with Bob for seven years now. I've been to Bob's house, and we've gone to Disneyland together. And we've, yeah, like, insane. We had the crazy story. Like, I've told this on another podcast, but me and a friend of mine who wanted to meet Bob, and Bob, I called, I said, because he had done my podcast dozens of, literally dozens of times, and give me hours and hours and hours of material. And I said, bob, I want to thank you. I'm coming out to Disneyland for an owners summit, a travel agency thing. I said, let me take out the dinner. Can I take it? You know, where's around your house? That's because he was in his late eighties at the time. And I said, where can I take you? And he's like, I'll do my best Bob Garner impression. And he goes, Phil, don't worry about it. And he goes, just come to the house. We'll get a pizza. We'll have a couple beers in the backyard. We I got, we bought him a. He was really into giratinis at the time, which are like, it's a martini, but it's Bob's version. So I bought him a bottle of Bombay gin from the liquor store that was near his house. We went to his house. My, we ordered a pizza. We got. He. Bob likes hawaiian pizza. We got hawaiian pizza. And we sat in his backyard for 4 hours as watch the sunset. And he told us stories about walt. Just me and my us, me and a buddy of mine. He just told us walt stories. And I wish I could have, but it's rude. You can't be like, hey, bob, can I record this? Can I break out my, know we're hanging out, but I'm gonna forget all these stories, man. So I don't, I remember, like, three of them, and I can't tell them here because they're not appropriate ones, but there you go. He told me that I can tell other fans of his, but I can't tell. But, yeah, but, and so then the other ones, I mean, after you get Bob and you get roley, when you tell other people. When I told julie andrews agent that I had spoken to those two. Yeah. She said yes. So I I told, I mean, I could tell you a funny story about every single celebrity I've spoken to. Another one. The story I was just alluding to was, richard sherman of the sherman brothers, the famous, you know, spoonful of sugar. Great big beautiful tomorrow in the tiki tiki room. Those songwriters. Richard Sherman is still alive and well in his early nineties. In this room in my studio about six, seven years ago, I wanted to find Richard Sherman's phone number so I could call him to invite him to be on my podcast. And I got really good. Yeah, I got really good at Internet detective. So I sat here. It was the morning. My kids were very, were little. They were seven years ago, so they were six, seven years old, and they were up, you know, watching Julie's green room or something. And I was here in my office, and I started sleuthing. And I found, after a lot of researching an address and a phone number, which I believe was Richard Sherman's wife. And I was, and I was. And it was in Beverly Hills. And I was like, I'll try. So I picked up my phone and they called it. And wouldn't you know that nobody answered. But the echoing message was a spoon. Was musically a spoonful of sugar.
Vanessa:No.
Phil:And then Richard Sherman's voice comes in and he goes, we are out making magic or something wonderful. And he's like. And his wife is like, leave the message after the beep. And I panicked, and I hung up the phone, and I realized it was 630 in the morning Pennsylvania time. So I called Richard freaking Sherman's house at 330 in the morning. And I'm sure he had caller id. And the next day I called him back like a moron trying to see, ask him if they would. The number was disconnected. It was over. So I am the reason. I am the reason why Richard Sherman in Hollywood got a disconnected phone. That's me.
Vanessa:Oh, no.
Phil:Yeah, I told you this conversation can go everywhere.
Vanessa:Yeah, that was. Why do you think. Why do you think that people love Disney movies? Disney World. You know, like, you and your family. You are Disney fanatics. You go as much as you can, and you are not alone. Right? There are a lot of people who are like you who really just have. Just continue to have, you know, such a full heart for Disney. What do you think it is that draws people?
Phil:It's. It literally is the place where you can leave everything in the hotel room and, you know, you're not even in the hotel room. You check your problems at when you drive through those giant Walt Disney World Gates. You know, the Mickey and Minnie on either side on right off of I for. And you drive in and you get it just weights off your shoulder. Off your shoulders. My family, you just. It's like, oh, my gosh, we're on vacation. We have nothing. Nothing to do other than have fun with each other for the next week. That's what it is. It's. It's. I'm big on family. My kids are my favorite people. My wife's my favorite person. So you're gonna make me cry while I'm talking myself to myself. It's true. Like, that's what it is for us. It's that everything, especially when, I mean, you walk into magic kingdom or have you been to Disneyland? You walk into Disneyland, right?
Vanessa:I haven't been to Disneyland. Only world.
Phil:Okay, well, we got to get you there. My phone. You have my phone number and my email. I'll hook you up with our agents, who will get you there soon because you're missing out. Disneyland park is the greatest park. It's the greatest theme park on the planet. I was always a Walt Disney World guy. First moment I stepped foot in Disneyland House. Oh, this is. I get it. Walt touched everything in here. Like, it's different. And so that place, especially when you go there, and I do have laryngitis, I think, for my. I'm not. This isn't my voice cracking, but it did crack a little bit. I did tear up a little bit, but it's just a feeling, man. It's just all your. It really is. I know. It's corny, trust me. I'm 45 years old. I understand how corny that sounds. But if it weren't it. Walt Disney believed it. He believed it. That's why I built it. Right. So you really. Because of the berm. You know, the berm. The railroad tracks around magic Kingdom, around Disneyland. You don't see the outside world where you're in those parks. You don't see the outside world in Epcot, except for you see the tower. Tower across the border, which always cracks me up. But you don't see the outside world. You're in Walt Disney World. You can forget about work and you're. You're sick. And Idaho or whatever it is, you know, just. It's just total immersion. I love it. And I think the people who were like, it's so crazy because it's so politically divided now, right? Like, people want to let people know, right. I try to stay out of politics. I really do. They've made Walt Disney World and Disneyland and the Disney company such a political thing, and it drives me. But if they would just go and enjoy it the way it's supposed to be enjoyed, I think everybody would have a different. It's. Is it as cheap as it was in the seventies? Is it as cheap as it was in the fifties or the nineties? No, it's not. It's expensive. It went up, way up during COVID And it hasn't come down. And people keep asking me when it's gonna come down. I wish I could tell you I can't. And if I didn't, if I wasn't making a little money as an entrepreneur and wasn't in, like, the higher middle, I probably couldn't afford to take my kids. Yeah, I get. I get it. I understand it's a luxury vacation. It stinks. But I think it's a worthwhile one, so save for it if you have to. I really do. I really think so. So hopefully that answers.
Vanessa:Yeah. One of the things I was struck with when I was a cast member at Disney World was how much attention to detail was put in Disney. And you see that, and it's more to the extreme than in any other theme park I've ever been to. Like, I don't know if this is the same as Disneyland, but there's the no fly zone over Disney World. Is that the same at Disneyland?
Phil:Yeah. I mean, everything you think about Walt Disney World and how special it is, multiply it by 6000 and that's Disneyland park. Like that. It's that. I always mess up this quote so I want to mess it up again, but I want to do my best. Rolly Crump, who I was talking about earlier, said he was famously didn't like Walt Disney World. He only liked Disneyland. He got to be a bit of a curmudgeon in his late years, but he didn't mean it like that. He said, you come to Disneyland, it's a beautiful salad. There's. There's croutons and there's. There's dressing and there's vegetables and there's radishes and there's tomatoes and there's lettuce. And he said, all the other parks, just lettuce and tomatoes. It's all this. And the way he said it, I'm like, oh, I get it. It's Waltz park. It's also the park. Locals go, right. So, like, it stands out to me how. How different and impressive it is, because I'm there twice a year. People come every day. There's this guy that sits one of the porches in Disneyland. His name is Frank. I found I'm not a Disneyland every day guy, so I didn't know about him before. Frank is known as the I'm trying to. The porch something. Porch bum, something like that. I forget his nickname. Frank. I'm sorry if you hear this. He is like, he's a. He's a Disneyland. It's his thing. He doesn't work there, but he's there every day. He has his coffee, he does his walk. Whatever he does, he sits on his bench on the porch. Nobody touches his spot because they know Frank's coming. It's different and it's unique and it's. It's. It's. You'll get that feeling when you go. Even with the latest editions, even with Galaxy's edge, with Star wars land, even with, like, the new technology and the magic bands. And, you know, you don't need cash to go to the parks anymore. Even with all that stuff, it's still waltz park. It still feels very much like waltz park. And that's why I wrote the book. I want people to know about Walt first as the guy that he was. And I think there's a lot of nonsense out there about who he was, and I. That drives me nuts. I want them to know that. I want them to remember that, and I want them to know about the creation of the park. Like, it's a. It was. It was a monumental thing to get that done in a year. Construction started. Almost a year later, they opened a year. It took, like, four years to get Galaxy's edge built, and it's a land, like, seriously, it's remarkable. So that's what I'm hoping somebody told me recently, and it's the coolest. This is. My ego couldn't get bigger. This is the coolest compliment I've gotten. Somebody said your book makes me feel like Disneyland makes me feel. And I was like, holy cow. Like, wow. What a. What a. What a compliment that was. It was so cool. Excuse me. I'm gonna keep going.
Vanessa:Yeah. What a high order compliment it is.
Phil:And I apologize. I keep going back, getting over this. This bug that my lovely children gave me. And I've been coughing my face also. I'm on Mucinex, my voice almost gone, but I'm getting through it.
Vanessa:Okay, so tell us about Walt's upbringing. He had a pretty. It was idyllic, but also stark.
Phil:Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it, actually, I want to write that down. It was born in Chicago in a house his dad built with his own two hands. His dad was a carpenter. His mom designed the house. Actually. His mom drew the plans. His mom was very intelligent. School teacher before Walt was born. That's actually how Elias and Flora met. Elias was a substitute teacher. He was doing anything he could to make some money.
Vanessa:Yeah.
Phil:And Flora was, like, eight years younger than him, and she was teaching, and she was a student, and she graduates. Kind of. Kind of weird about the timeline, but listen, it was, like, 1918 something, right? So who are we to judge? But,
Vanessa:But, yeah, he had.
Phil:So in Chicago, his very early years, four or five years old. He had no memory of those years. Walt's dad, Elias, thought that the crime was getting pretty dicey in Chicago around 1905. I'm not good with dates. Four oh, five. Moved the family to Marceline, Missouri. They bought a farm. And that was where Walt's entire childhood was made, on that farm in Marceline. He stayed there. He was gone before he was ten, I believe. That's right. Again, please don't quote me on the. I just know that. How long he was there. Yeah. And it was. It was. If you look at so dear, the movie, so dear to my heart, if you look at the old Mickey mouse shorts where he's on a farm playing crazy steamboat Willie, it's Mark Twain esque kind of feel. That was Walt's childhood when he was a Marceline. Yeah, he. His dad was. His dad was a taskmaster. His dad made him do chores every single day. Every day. But his mom, really early on, like four or five, noticed that he had a. Had a passion for drawing and for art, and she encouraged them, and she would help him. She would organize his days so that he would be finished with all of his chores in the morning. So then anyone had the rest of the day to wander the farm with a sketch pad that his aunt gave him and draw. And he would draw and. And that was that. Those, you know, four or five years in the farm are what kind of made him the dreamer, I think that he was. Then he moved Kansas City, and it was brutal. I mean, it was nine years old, ten years old.
Phil: His dad was waking him up at 03:00 in the morning. Rain, snow, with that hot weather, 890 degrees. It was. Somebody did the research. I don't know who it was, because Walt talked about how when he was a kid, I think, nine or ten years old, how the snowdrifts in Kansas City were over his head and his dad would still wake him up and would have to deliver 100, 200 newspapers every day, every morning, and then had to do it again in the afternoon. His dad. So we had always deliver the papers. You get paid a nickel, not a dime. And the researchers looked into it, said, yeah, like his waltz. Excuse me. Walt's 11th year or 10th year, they really. Kansas City really did have snow drifts that high that they were that bad. And he would famously.
Phil:One of my favorite stories about him when he was a kid, he loved the apartment buildings because he would really fast go deliver all the newspapers in the apartment building. And it was warm inside, which was heated. And under the stairwell, he would lay under the stairwell and sleep for a half hour sometimes he. For school, because it was. He would be frozen outside delivering 100, 200 newspapers. That exaggeration. It's that all, that was all true. So his dad. Yeah, his dad was abusive. His dad, Elias, you know, for today's standards, 2024. Like, I don't know about you, I wouldn't hit my children. But he. That was a regular thing he did. And Walt's older brothers, he would. He would hit him. He would beat him with the back of a hammer. He would smack him across the room. And they said the wrong thing. He would. Yeah. He wasn't kind, Walt. It was weird. Like, in all the research I've done, spoke lonely about his dad his whole life. Not one bad word about him. Just adored him and said, you know, he made him tough. That's what. That's how a midwestern dad and 19, you know, 1910 I don't. I'm glad that wasn't me.
Vanessa:Yeah, sure.
Phil:I mean, I had. I was pretty soft growing up. I. You know, my, you know, my parents signed me up for Cub Scouts. I wasn't out there working the farm, you know?
Vanessa:Yeah. I mean, it made me think when I was reading that part in the book, how Elias was so serious and didn't appreciate practical jokes. He wasn't. He didn't laugh or smile. It didn't seem he. And I wondered if that was his. His wanting to create the happiest place on earth was almost in reaction to his father's seriousness. I. I. Did you have a take on that?
Phil:I think you hit the nail right in the head. I think he wasn't allowed to be a kid when he was a kid, like, he was in Marceline. Right. But that stopped in Kansas City. He was. No, no. Toys. His dad didn't believe in buying him toys. His brother Roy bought him a top one year, like a gyroscopic top. And he. That was his toy. That's what he played with, and that was what he had. His dad didn't believe in spending money on anything that didn't better his education. So if it wasn't learning an instrument, he wanted to learn the fiddle. The violin. Well, Elias was an excellent fiddle player. Would go into town in Marceline and bring home vagabonds who played guitar, and they would give him a meal, and it would sit on a Disney family porch at the farm in Marceline and play music all night. And Walt and his brothers and his sister would go out there and listen to them. And, you know, and it. That's the kind of guy Elias was. He was like a devout, like, christian, like, help your fellow man, but your kid is going to work and your kid's going to make some. Sorry, I mumbled there. Your kid's going to make something of himself, and your kid's going to better than his parents. And that's what he believed did, I think, in a lot of ways.
Vanessa:And, I mean, you described him as a serial entrepreneur, Elias.
Phil:Yeah. So he. When Walt was born, he was working. Not when was born. Yeah, around that. He was working on the Chicago world's fair as a carpenter, and then he owned. He went and bought the farm after that, when they moved to Marceline. And he. His. His source of income was the farm, and he was the. And then later in life, he bought. He bought investment in a jelly factory. And he tried to, like, he tried to run a, like, you know, be an investor in a higher up at a jelly factory and just buy into that. And that didn't work. And he's always had the next. Like he was, you know, he. He worked as a. As a carpenter in Chicago, building houses just like the one he built for himself. He was always working for himself as a teacher, trying to become, you know, when he was a kid, I more and more keep coming out of my head. Now, when he was a kid, him and his father tried to run an, I believe it was an orange grove, an orange farm in Florida. Elias lived in Florida for a while, like, when he was before Walt ever was born. So I think that's right. Someone have a fact check me on that one? But I'm pretty sure that's right. But, yeah, he had just a string of failures. Like, he. And he wanted Walt to work for somebody else. And I think Walt learned, like, it's funny, Walt learned how to be an entrepreneur from his dad, or at least how not to be one. Like, how to. How did. How to he, like, dude, that guy persevered like nobody I've ever read about my life. And, you know, I think that was right. I think you're right on. By saying he didn't get toys. He didn't get the. He didn't get the train. He loved the, like, famously loved the railroad, the toy railroad. Didn't get one till he was an adult. He was in his thirties or forties, and he got one. And he wrote to his sister Ruth a Christmas letter and said, you're going to make fun of me. This is a paraphrase, of course, but he said, you're going to make fun of me. But I know I'm in my thirties, but I bought a train set for myself, and I set it up at the studio, not the one that he ended up building in his backyard, a small one. And, you know, it's my stress relief. I go and I play with it. And he had miniatures in his office. He collected miniatures, and he played with those. He was a 40, 56 year old man playing with toys. And, yeah, I think it's get to do it. When he was a kid, Disneyland was his toy. That's what he built. Go play on train. He literally, a little girl got hurt on his train in his backyard, and he couldn't regulate it because he wasn't there a lot, because he was making movies all over the world when he wasn't there. A little girl got hurt on this train at his house, in his backyard. And he told people at the studio, box it up, put it in storage. We can't do it anymore. And like, two years later, he was building Disneyland. He wanted his training, so we just built an entire theme park to drive his truck. Like, it's not that simple, but it kind of is.
Vanessa:Yeah.
Phil:I mean, if you have, if you're that successful. And I don't know his batting average. Bob Gar always tells me his batting average was like 950. Like, the guy just never, he didn't make bad decisions. He just didn't. Not in his career, not his. In his personal life, sure, but not in his career. He was just, well, not once he got established early on. Tons of mistakes once he got established.
Vanessa:Can you give us some examples of some of his early failures?
Phil:Yeah, like, so I don't know if you know that. Know the name of iwerks. When he, in, around 1921 22, I think it is, he met Iwerks working in Kansas City at the Kansas City slide Company of iworks. Ended up becoming the creator of Mickey Mouse. Basically was the first one that drew Mickey Mouse. He and I went into business together early twenties, and they called their company, they wanted to call it Disney Iwerks, but then they thought that sounded like an optometrist, so they changed it to Iworks Disney, and that company went, they didn't know what they were doing. It went bankrupt in a few months. Walt started, he started doing laugh o gram in Kansas City and had, this is my favorite story. I don't know the numbers. I'm sorry, I can't remember off the top of my head. I think it was like he had no money, he had no job. He was literally living in his family's house in Kansas City. He somehow convinced backers to give him $15,000 to start laughing studio and make his first film. I think it's like 200 plus thousand dollars. And today he was a kid, he was 20, 1920 years old. How did he do that? Like, I, that fascinates me. He was maybe the best salesman ever, I imagine, like wall as like Don Draper from Mad Men. Like walking in the room. I don't know if that's how it was, but, I, but then like, laugh a graham, he has that go for a while. He didn't, when he signed his contracts, he didn't figure in his costs at all. He just what it would cost for, I guess. I don't even know what it was he missed. He miscalculated his cost, and he ended up losing money on every laughter and cartoon he made. Until the end that he made Tommy Tucker's tooth and ended up making a little bit of money on it. But if you can hear my dog in the background. But, he's. He's. I can't believe he's been this quiet so far. But, yeah, but. Laughter game goes bankrupt. He literally had to sell everything he had, because he couldn't. He couldn't make a profit. And instead of. He. All he was able to keep was his camera that he had before he started laughing. Ram and his unfinished reel of a movie called Alice's Wonderland and, starring Virginia Davis. And he. My favorite part about the story is, instead of, like, going, I lost. What am I going to go back to living with my parents in Chicago? He buys a one way ticket to Los Angeles. One way, no return ticket, first class. He's got $40 to his name. And that's it. He sells his camera. He literally took it. He bought a one way, first class ticket, even though we couldn't afford it, to Los Angeles. No job, no prospects, nothing. And that's his confidence level. I love it. I love. There's a statue of him and Mickey in Disney, California adventure. That's called suitcase and a dream. And it's walt at 20 years old, 21 years old, with a big fedora and a tie and a mismatched clothes and a giant trunk. And it's like. And it's Mickey Mouse standing on top of it, which I love. But, it's. I love that. My favorite part of the story, like, he just bet on himself. And then he failed out in California. Like, he. He invents Oswald the lucky rabbit. And Oswald's a huge star in 1927. Huge biggest star in the world. And he thinks he's. He's due for a raise. I'm like, I'm killing it. I'm going to go to New York, talk to the producer of Oswald and say, I want to raise. Like, I'm not making enough money on this. And I go to this guy, Charles Mintz, who's the producer at Universal, and says, you know, it's a long. It's a couple different meetings. It's not just one meeting. It's. It's. They met each other all week and. But Mintz tells him, I'm not going to give you a raise. Not only that, I'm. You're going to take a pay cut and walk like, no, I'm not. And he said, well, you are, because I took. I also hired away all of your animators. All of them the only one. The only. And it was true. Only two of Walt's animators stayed with him, all by works. Famously was one of them. And, at the last meeting, Charles Mint said to him, you know, let's figure it out, Walt. Like, we can work together. You'll work for me. I'll own the Disney studio here at Universal world tour view. We'll own you. But you still keep making your cartoons and it'll be great. And walt, I love this part. Walt looked at him and said, don't you understand, charlie? He said, I'm never going to look at Oswald again. He makes me sick, he said, he makes me sick. And he said, I'm leaving, and that's it, and I'll figure it OUT. And then he vowed never to work for anyone ever again. And he never did. And my favorite part about the story is, on the way out, he told Charles Mintz, he said, charlie, you take care of yourself. He said, because the people, meaning the animators and universal, the people that did this to me, they're going to do it to you. And he was RIGHT. Like, just a few months later, Oswald was taken from Charles Mintz and given to Walter Lance. Walter Lance ended up making Woody woodpecker eventually. And Oswald, you know, he flopped after that. Like, not flop, but he didn't have the Disney studio. And walt coming up with the stories. Like, that's what made Mickey so popular was Walt was the story guy. Walt was the gag guy. Walt came up with, you know what? Mickey Mouse was Walt's alter ego. That's like, when I talked to Norman, said, like, it's funny. Like, you just watch Mickey go, that's Walt. It's just what Walt couldn't do in the early days is what Mickey did. And it, Walt provided the voice, of course. So what was Mickey Mouse's voice for the first time? 15 years?
Vanessa:Yeah, I didn't know that.
Phil:Yeah, so the, oh, boy. That, that's all Walt in the early days.
Vanessa:Oh, my goodness. He was really a performer.
Phil:He, so that's the thing, right? Is he was, and he, this, there's the famous, I'm sorry. I'm just like that. Tell you the stories. And none of these are in the book. I don't think. I don't think any of these are in the book. I'm like, but this story I did tell in the book, and it's when he, yeah, he just, he acted everything out. And he would teach, he would, if you couldn't understand. No, actually, this story isn't in the book. There was a story guy that was very nervous about going to his meeting with Walt. He'd only been there a few months, and he had to draw a Pluto sequence where Pluto wakes up in the morning after sleeping all night. And he had the drawings, he had the sketches and the storyboards. And he takes it to Walt's office and walks there and sit down, and he's explaining. He's taking it through the storyboard and he's saying, here he is waking up and this net. And he looks over at Walt, and Walt's eyes are closed and his mouth is all. And he's. His mouth is, like, wrinkled. And he starts making his lip smacking noises, like. And then the poor animators looking at him like, this guy's freaking crazy. What's he doing?
Vanessa:Yeah.
Phil:You know how that feeling when you wake up and you can't taste anything and your eyes aren't adjusted? And he just acted out the whole Pluto thing and he said, why can't Pluto wake up like that? And Pluto, that's how he drew it. Pluto woke up like that. Walt very famous for that. Like, he would literally act out the characters facial expressions. Very famously had the left eyebrow. Is very famous that it would go up when he annoyed. Like, whenever he was annoyed at what somebody was saying, he would give him, like, the one eyebrow up. And then his other famous one was, Floyd Norman told me that when he was his finger tapping. So when he would tap his finger slowly, he was interested in what you were saying. Go ahead. And then when he would sit back in his chair and tap fast and then get to your point quickly. Shut up. Because patience. And you're not. Yeah. So anyway, that was that. Those are, those are kind of random, but that's not answering your questions. I'm strong.
Vanessa:Nonverbals.
Phil:Yeah, he. You didn't have to guess much with him, I don't think. I mean, from whatever he told me, he. Yeah, you got that. You got the picture when you saw. Yeah.
Vanessa:So, Mickey Mouse was not originally Mickey Mouse. He was Mortimer. And can you tell us about how that name change got changed?
Phil:Yeah, so, yeah, so they. So, as I said earlier, the Charles Mintze stole or took Oswald from Walt and Oswald. I mean, Walt. Walt didn't want to tell his brother Roy what had happened. He didn't want to give him bad news, you know, via telegram or anything. So he sent a telegram from New York and he said, stopping beating tonight. Stopping over in Kansas City. All is fine talk when I get back. As simple as that. And on the train from Kansas City to California after the New York leg, Walt was coming up with story. He was coming up with a new story for a new character. And so, famously, the story that Walt told was, for years, Walt told the story that he came up with a mouse on that train ride, and his wife, and, you know, he came up with a story, and he came up with the concept for a mouse. And he said, how about this, Lily to his wife, lilliande, I have a, what? I have a, you know, this mouse. And he, and he said, here's the mouse that I have. And we're going to call him Mortimer Mouse. And she said, yeah, I don't like that. And he was like, why not? What do you, what's wrong with Mortimer? And she said, nah, it's stuffy. I don't like it. And she said, how about Mickey? And that's apparently the legend, is how. That's the story he told. Now, I, here's the, here's where it gets fun. And this is a really fun I, years ago, when I first started doing the podcast, a woman reached out to me who had the last name of iwerks. And I, of course, it's not a very common last name, but I, I have a lot of people who have Disney who make their last names Disney last names because they're fan. I have a lot of Chris Disney, Mike Disney, Billie Jean Disney followers on Facebook. So I didn't think anything of it. But once in a while, she would send me a message correcting some of my stories. And I was like, oh, maybe she is an iworks. Turns out she's of iworks, his granddaughter. And, wow, she told me. And this is the story that her grandfather and her family tells, is that Walt got off the train wanting a new character, having a story for playing crazy, having the story where, some farm animal would drive a plane. He had all the gags worked out. I was thinking of it all, but he didn't have animal. He had no idea. And he, Roy picked them up from, the train station with Lillian, and they actually live next door to each other on Lyric Avenue in Los Angeles. So Roy drove to their houses and they sat down, and the rumor is they cracked a couple of beers, and they invited up iworks over, and they were drinking beer, and they were drawing characters. And ub came up with, I think, six or seven different animals and presented them to Walt. And Walt said, I like the mass. And that's when Lillian came up with Mortimer. That's when he, I mean, when Lillian came up with Mickey in that. Who knows which one it was. Yeah. Billion did come up with Mickey over mortar. Mortimer. And, yeah. And of iworks most certainly drew the first versions. I mean, I've seen them. If you go to the Walt Disney family museum, you can see the first ever drawings of Mickey Mouse. Like, literally, they're in behind glass. Right? Like, you can put your phone. Right. I took a picture. That's why I mastered the put your phone against the glass museum picture taking strategy. I recall your phone right up against the glass. There's no glare. And nobody got me from doing this. So I did it 850 times at the Walt Disney family museum. And I, I thought the security was gonna kick me out, but they didn't. They were very nice, and I got it, you know, so, But, yeah, but, anyway, that's. I'm sorry.
Vanessa:No, no, but Mortimer has. He, he's Mickey's arch enemy. Right. Or, or is that what it was?
Phil:Brought him back later on as. Make one of Mickey's foils? Yeah, it's like, and then, especially if you watch, like, that Mickey Mouse clubhouse or Mickey Mouse roads, the racers making the roads. He does that. Yeah, he doesn't have that weird, like, he has like a big, he had, he looks like Walt. Like Mortimer. The Mortimer character looks like evil Walt Disney. Like, he has a big mustache and. Yeah, and the eyebrows. It's funny. It's very different funny.
Vanessa:All right, so let's talk about. Okay. Oh, before we get to the parks, because I definitely want to talk about the parks, but there's a famous story about creating the first full length animated movie, which was Snow White.
Phil:Yeah. You're talking about the light bulb hanging on the studio kind of story.
Vanessa:And that one, I guess. So it was the one where Walt was acting out the story.
Phil:Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it was, I think, 1934, maybe. Walt had been trying out. He had seen Snow White and the seven dwarfs on screen, the silent version. He was very young. I don't know how it was. I think it was 1213. So he had wanted to do that movie. He was infatuated with it. And he had been working on the storyline in his head, just telling people the plot of the movie, of Snow White and his. He had been working on it for months and months, telling people a story. And then I don't like that part, so he would change it and I, and then tell him this part. And they were, yeah, so, like, he was working on it, refining it, changing the story, changing the story. One, I think it was a Friday, almost at the end of the workday, he walked into his animators, you know, one of the big offices and said, listen, he took all his key, the key animators that work for him and said, an artist and say, go across the street to the restaurant there. I don't know the restaurant name. Have dinner on me. He gave the money, then come back. I have something to show you. So they did. They all went, it's 1930s. They're all drinking. They come back. There's Walt at, you know, in the studio, lit by one bulb, and he has all seats around him, and he has just have a seat. And he proceeds to. And to act out all of snow White and the seven tours. Literally, every part, he's snow white, he's the witch. He would throw a blanket over his head and. And be the evil. The evil queen. He was. He would poison himself with the apple and fall down. He was all the dwarfs. He did all the voices. He did everything. People were crying. Literally, people were crying during that. Like, he performed the entire story. And at the end of it, he said, this is our first full length animated feature. And they were hooked. Like, everybody was. There was like, yeah, yep. Yeah. This is a winner. There's no way. It's not. There's no way. It's not. And he dedicated their lives like a studio full of men and women. No overtime, but working all the overtime. He didn't pay overtime. They didn't have it. They had no money. Some days he was giving out cash on the baseball diamond across the street for people who needed to pay bills because they didn't have it to pay him. But people were like, well, we trust you. We think it's going to work. Same thing happened with Disneyland. Same thing he. Nobody wanted. His brother Roy was like, no one's gotta pay. No one wants this park. So he started telling everybody about it, just dropping hints to everybody, it's gonna work. It's gonna work, it's gonna work. Finally, he had so much support around his studio. Hazel George, his nerds, she started this thing called the Disneyland Backers Club, and they had dozens of people giving their own money, giving their, like, here, walt, take my money. I don't want this paycheck. Take it. Giving it to. For the construction of Disneyland so we can get it done. They did the same thing with Snow White. They gave their own money out of their pocket. Like, what other boss? I don't care what other boss world have you heard of who people gave their own money to? We're like, no, you keep my paycheck this week. I want to go to the project. That doesn't happen. So there's. That's a person that gets people to do that. Like, it is, like, I don't know, man. If we all aspire a little bit to be like that. Holy cow. That's what I. I mean, I try to except, like, the holy cow stuff like that right there. The holy cow. That. That's an act. Like, I curse my face off, but not around my kid, and not inappropriately, but when I'm on, if I want camera, I can. I can do it. I can throw the oh, goshes in the holy moly's. When I tell my wife, when I found my. My book, it, like, under ten. Doubt, like, ranked under 10,000 today.
Vanessa:Huh.
Phil:That wasn't a holy moly. That was a. There was a couple excellent thrown out there. I was jumping up and down, like under ten. It's crazy to me. So it's. It's. It's wild. So I really thank you for having me on again, because, like, I just want people to know about it. And it's, like I said, it's. It's the person that gave me the ultimate compliment at Disneyland. The feeling, like, Disneyland. Like, man, that's like a drug I could get used to. Keep those coming.
Vanessa:Yeah. Awesome. Okay, so let's. Let's move on to the parks. How did the dream come about Disneyland?
Phil:Yeah. So, in the thirties, there are the first drawings that were done by Marvin Davis. I believe it was a late thirties for Mickey Mouse park, which was going to be across studio in Burbank on a little lot that they. That the studio owned. And it was. It was. I forget how many acres it was, but it just didn't. It wasn't big enough. After a few years, Walt, his. His imagination had outgrown that spot. It really goes back to. And it's the. It's the famous thing that Walt said in an interview in the sixties. It goes back to his daddy's day with his daughters when they were very little. I forget it was Saturdays or something. It was Saturdays or daddy's days. Maybe it was Sundays. I forgot. And he would take them one day, that one day on the weekend was. It was the day he would take them to the Griffith park zoo. They would go, you know, to the. To the aquarium they would go horseback riding. They would go whatever. And one of the. He would take them to the studio. They learned to ride their bikes at the studio. And one of the places he would take them is Griffith park playground. I mean, carousel. And he would put them on a carousel, but adults weren't able to ride it. And he would get peanuts from a nearby vendor and sit and, like, shell the peanuts and eat them one of those famous green benches while his daughters rode the carousel. And that's the famous story. It was from there. He said, I wish there was a place where adults and children could go out and have fun together. That was like the genesis. That's like the thought, like, oh, like, that's. That's where it kind of came from.
Vanessa:So were there not amusement parks before that?
Phil:So, okay, we're going to technical here.
Vanessa:Okay.
Phil:Theme parks, right? So waltz or Disneyland? Walters world theme parks. There were plenty. There were amusement parks. You know, Coney island existed well before that. Notbury farm in California right down the road existed. Was there. Had a western town. Walt borrowed some of his theming ideas from Knotts Berry Farm. He was friends with Walter Knott and his wife. Walter Knott helped him, helped advise him on Disneyland. He eventually helped Walter not. He advised Walter not on Knott's Berry farm. So Disneyland was the first theme park. I think it's still. It's widely known as the first theme park, but not amusement park. They were all over the Jersey shore in New York and. And the California coastline, and then they were all over the place. But he was the first one that was like, let's make you feel like you're in a movie no matter where you are in the park. Like, let's put you in a spot. That was. He was the first guy to do that.
Vanessa:Mm. Okay. Okay. So Disneyland came first. When did Disney World come about?
Phil:So they broke land, broke ground in 67, 66, when Walt was still alive.
Vanessa:Okay.
Phil:And then it didn't open until 1971. And, of course, it opened with magic Kingdom only as far as the park, and then with the polynesian and then Fort wilderness and the contemporary. So that was 71. Epcot is, I always forget, 82. I think it's 82. Animal Kingdom, 98, Hollywood studios, 89. Animal Kingdom 98, Disney California measure my friend's gonna be. I have a friend who's a. Who is one of the top guys out there. He's gonna hear me say that and go, oh, you son of a. I have no idea what year that park opened. I do know that I went, my wife and I went on our honeymoon in 2008 and we saw the original Disney California adventure. And I was very confused by that park. And before the renovation, it was a park in California that celebrated California, which is very strange because everybody goes there is from California. So why would those places instead of those pretend places that were in the park, like, pretend, like sunset strip ride? Well, go to the sunset strip. It's right, it's right there. So it didn't work. So they renovated it. They refurbished it. And now it's a wonderful park. It's. They have cars, land, and avengers campus. And I love it there now. I spend a ton of time out there now. But before then, it was really weird. It was a very strange park, you.
Vanessa:Know, so that one was more recently built, the one attached to Disneyland. What did you call it?
Phil:Disney California adventure. They chop off the apostrophe s from Disney's a bunch of years ago. Now it's just Disney California adventure. Don't ask me why that one either. That makes it difficult to say if you ask me. But I don't work for Disney anymore.
Vanessa:Well, when I was a cast member back in the early two thousands, I. They kept talking and maybe this was just entirely folklore about opening a villains park. Do you know if that was ever actually a thing that they were considering?
Phil:It's been a rumor forever. Forever. Forever. I. Every time I see it now, like, I see in like, one of those websites, the blogs, it's like, roll your eyes. It's been rumored again. They're expanding magic. It's called beyond Big Thunder Mountain. They're expanding magic kingdom in the coming years. That area that's back behind Big Thunder is a parking lot and stuff. Now they're going to gut all that and make that a new land. And the rumor was that maybe there would be villains in that land. But looks like, it looks like. Probably not. I don't know what they're going to put there. But, animal kingdom is getting an Indiana Jones area and an attraction and a attraction based on, Was it cocoa? Not coco. What the heck is the, encounter gorilla?
Vanessa:No encounter.
Phil:Okay, coco, that's great. That's actually great. A great guess because, you know, the animal kingdom, coco, the attraction is not what I was trying to say. Encanto. It's like a big house. So there's a attraction in Paris. Disney in Paris called mystic manor. And the rumor is they're going to make like a mystic manor version in Frano kingdom, but it's going to be encanto themed. So we'll see again, Paris, because. Give me on a boat. I don't want to go on a plane right now. We had my daughter. We. I was just in Disneyland a week and a half ago. My daughter's 13. It was our first dad's order trip ever. She's on the spectrum. She has high functioning autism, and it was a rough. It's a rough plane ride home. So now I'm like, where can we drive to? I don't like flying anyway. But, like, yeah.
Vanessa:I remember another rumor that I'd heard while I was there was. This was after Walt had died, and obviously since he died before I was born, but that at some point, there was some dissatisfaction with some imagineers. They're the engineers who are at Disney, for those who are not in the know of the Disney lingo, that they, like, up and quit at Disney, and they moved to universal, and they brought their dueling dragons ride that is so famous at universal. Did you ever hear that rumor? No. That was true.
Phil:Yeah, it was absolutely true. Was supposed to be an attraction that went into beastly kingdom at animal kingdom. If you look at the animal kingdom logo, you'll see a dragon on it still. There was a post. It was originally supposed to have mythical animals. Now, I guess now they do have mythical animals in Pandora. They have, like, the world of avatars. So they have, like, the na'vi and all that stuff. But back in the day, the dragon was on, the logo represented beastly kingdom, and they were going to have a dragon roller coaster there. And that's what they designed. As for doing dragons, I don't know the whole backstory, but for sure, they did leave in a disgruntled fashion and took their idea to universal, who built dueling dragons, which was one. It was a great coaster, but, man, I'll never forget that. Beat you up those. It's gone now. They replaced it. They put it. It's now where the Harry Potter. The Harry Potterlands stands now. But, man, I used to be. It used to be up pretty good. So they, Yeah, it was a tough one, but.
Vanessa:It was a really popular ride. That's a surprising that they took it down.
Phil:It was. Yeah, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm. Maybe it was just one of the reasons. I know they had it for. They retained it for a while where it was like, I'm pretty sure it was like the dragon. No, no, it's going now. It was the dragon like quest. Like, they were like some kind of tournament through Quidditch and it was. We themed it to that for a while, and I. And then they. Now it's where one of the Harry Potter land stands, I'm pretty sure. Maybe I'm wrong, but universal get mad at me because I used to work there as well, hopefully. Listen to this. My agency, we sell. We book trips all over the world. So, like, we book. We specialize in Disney vacations, but we book universal. Every cruise line, Walt Disney World, land universe. I mean, adventures by Disney Cruise line, all that stuff. So we won't get that, man. I gave him a plug.
Vanessa:Well, and a lot of people who go to Disney will also spend a day or two at universal.
Phil:Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've done it. My first. My kids. We did that with my kids last year for the first time because they're living. There were twelve. I'm sorry, they were, yeah, twelve and ten. So they were able to ride all the thrill rides. So we rode my wife's chicken, so she didn't ride any of them. And I was 44, and I'm. Listen, the older you get those old coaches upside down, man, you're like, all right, I'll ride it once. And then I think I'm done. Like, I used to. I could write that all day now. Like, I'm on blood pressure medication. Like, I don't think I'll be doing that. So my dad is. My dad will be 70. He's 69, and he wrote. He tried to hang on, and last summer he wrote a roller coaster. I looked at him, and I go, yo, dude, you got. That's it for you. I was like, you're gonna have a heart attack one of these things. Like, I am nerd. You're nearly 70 years old. Go one more world and Peter Pan's flight, and be happy to go with your grandchildren. That should be that, you know?
Vanessa:Yeah. Well, do you have any favorite stories of the ones that you wrote in your book or even some that you left out? Do you have. Do you have.
Phil:So I'm writing book number two now, so I don't want to give those away.
Vanessa:Okay.
Phil:That's that. Yeah. Like, I'm. I. I want to make it a little bit bigger and a little bit better than the first one, and then. So, yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to tell those. I. I'll tell you, the Walt being doubted stories are my favorite. The ones where he. There's this one where he, you know, whenever somebody says to him, you can't. You can't do that. Like Nabo, that you can't, that can't be done. Like, we're not. I love that. He goes, oh, yeah, really can't be done. All right. And he just did it. That's my feet. My favorite thing is that he did have a bit of the, a lot of the chip on his shoulder where he, if you told him he couldn't do something, he'd love to prove you wrong, and he would make sure he proved you wrong, and then he would tell you about it. But one of my favorite series. Here's one. So I forget the name of the, the animator who was trying to be, you know, trying to be an imagineer and was trying to get Walt's attention. And this is in, I think, the early, late fifties, early sixties. And he would keep coming by Walt to Walt's office and say, well, you have a couple minutes. I want to show you something. I made this model. I made this thing I want to show you. It's a kinetic model. I want you to see it work. And Walt kept blowing it off. Like I say, I'll see it. I'm busy. I'll see. I'll see it. So Walt had a office suite where he had, like, actually, like three offices in one. So he had, this guy, this imagineer, talked to Walt's secretary, and she let him in the one of Walt's offices, and he set up this machine while Walt wasn't there. And he waited. And the Walt comes in from a meeting, and this imagineer, uninvited, is standing there with his machine set up, and he says, well, I've been trying to show you this for a week. Can I show it to you? And Walt, annoyed, and he's fine. Show it. God. So he shows it to him, and it moves, and it does everything it's supposed to. It's very intricate. It's very cool. And it's like, yeah, this should get at a great imagineering spot. And Walt looks at it and looks back at the guy and just stares at him. And imagineering goes, for the effort, walt. I mean, give me an e for effort here. And Walt goes, I'll give you an s for shit. That's it. That's the whole story. And I just love that because he's like, you know what? Like, my time is valuable here, buddy. And you're gonna like, I just love it. Like, he, you have the appropriate time to come to your balls with that. He was telling you that, but you tried to force his hand, and then you're done. You're not now, you tried to force his hands, and now you don't get anything. And, yeah, the guy in later years ended up actually becoming. He was one of Walt's top guys, and he ended up telling that story and laughing his face off every time he told, like, that was his story. And I read it in Marty Sclera's book, and I love it. And I forget one thing that I mentioned, too. Like, I love now that I got, like, a little bit of, like, people following me on Facebook. And so when I mess up a story now, in the beginning, I can mess up stories, it was fine. Nobody cared, nobody told, nobody called more. Now if I mess up the story, I hear from, like, actual Disney legends and they're like, hey, yeah, like, this guy, Tom Morris, who designed, helped design Big Thunder Mountain. They designed Sleeping Beauty Castle in Disneyland. He's a former imagineer, a really big deal. You say Tom Morris around Disneyland, average. Oh, my God, Tom Morris. He. I told a story and not even in the DM's, I told a story on Facebook and he commented on it, corrected half of it, and I was like, oh, no. So I literally, the first thing I did, like, I'm like, in the middle of dinner and I jump into my phone and I'm, like, fixing the story. But the fact that he would go out of his way to make sure I got it right, like, yeah, it's cool. It's so neat. So I'm so lucky, like, to be able to do that and to meet the people I've met and talk to people I've talked to. And for this book to be the common. To be able to do this and talk to you and you're laughing at these stories. Like, it's awesome. So this is the true. It really is. It really is. I'm so lucky to be able to do this. I really am.
Vanessa:What are your thoughts about? Yes, I agree on everything. What are your thoughts on how, you know, I feel like a lot of the fairy tales that I grew up with were because of Disney. Like, I wasn't read the Grimms fairy tales books. I had a few fairy tales told to me, I think, as a child. But, you know, we now look to Disney for the fairy tale stories, and some of them, they take liberties, right. They're not, like, necessarily true to the original. What are your thoughts about how the fairy tales were taken and now are almost standardized because of Disney?
Phil:They're Disney five. Right. Let's call them, like, Disney five. Yeah, there's a. I so a lot of that stuff. So, like, a lot of the Grimm brothers and all that stuff is pretty dark, pretty inappropriate for kids, like cutting off pieces of your foot, your finger, of your foot, and I didn't know all that stuff. My kids are act. All of them act. My wife wasn't. My wife is a huge Broadway fan. All my kids, all three of them are like, they love the stage. So I went, we sold. What's that one? Into the woods. Oh, my wife's explaining me into the woods. And she's like, this is the real story of the grim, this. And Cinderella had to cut her foot off her stepsister. Had to cut her foot off the Fitzhen. And I'm like, what? Like, thank goodness they changed these darn things. Like, I don't know. Like, I. It's, there's, we have some dark mythology. Maybe hold off until our kids are, like, 14 to teach it to them. And maybe the Disney versions aren't so bad. I. There's a funny story that goes with that. When Bill Pete, who was Walt's fate, Walt's best story guy, like in his, in the thirties, forties, fifties, he was Walt sixties, he was Walt Disney's number one story guy. He was the guy who came up with all the ideas for the story, drew the storyboards, like, what the scene would look like. Billy came up with all of them. They had to do the jungle Book. And Rudy Kipling had written a jungle book and walked with Bill Pete, who was his best story guy on the Jungle book, and was like, come up with this. Come up with how this movie, how this looks, how this feels. Come up with the storyboards for this. So I don't know how many, how long he had it beaks. And then Walt comes in and sees the storyboard, and he and Bill Pete, hadn't Disney fight it? He made it look the way Ruddy Kipling's book felt. Walt took one look at it and goes, I'm not making. I can't make this movie. And he's like, but, walt, this is what the book is. And he's like, I understand, but we're making Walt Disney's the Jungle book. We're not making Rudy Kipling's jungle book. They sold rights to this book. I want to make it the way I want to make it. And Bill Pete off of it. And Bill Pete was so mad that he quit. And he was his number one guy for decades, and he was so mad that he quit. But Walt made the movie he wanted to make, right? So he was unflinching, very unflinching when it came to stuff like it was his way or the highway and. Yeah, I mean, I think busy could get back to telling some fairy tales now. And I think us parents will be thrilled. Tell me, don't I? Don't I? Don't I? Listen, went to see wish. It was fine. It was fine. It wasn't a fairy tale. It was weird. It was disjointed. I love Disney. I wish, I wish they would bring some. They just need to bring some story. I don't know where the story people went, but need storytellers. You need a storyteller, somebody who can write a good story from beginning to end and surprise people and make them laugh and cry. Where are they? That's what it needs.
Vanessa:Do you know if Encanto is based off of a fairy tale or a folk legend?
Phil:Caught me. Caught me on that one. I have no idea.
Vanessa:That'd be interesting to find out. It has a feel of something from, like, because where does it take place?
Phil:I'm pretty sure that was written by the same people who wrote frozen. I'm thinking about it. I'm pretty sure it's. It's like a. But they both based frozen on the Hans Christian Andersen novels. So if you look at the main characters from frozen. Get this. Hans Anna Sven, Hans Christian Anderson, Hans Christopher. So they navy. It's literally the ice princess. But they named it frozen, just made it Disney. And they do whatever. Rapunzel tangled it, and my kid grew up on it. And I'll tell you what, I grew up on it, and I. The first Disney movie I remember seeing was Pinocchio. My grandfather took me. It was a release in the eighties. Again, it was 83, maybe. I remember seeing it. I mean, I'm like, yep, this is. These are the greatest movies ever. So I'm fine. You know, my feeling is I'm fine. I'm good with the. I'll rehash every fairy tale. As long as they're good stories that make my kids happy, I don't care. And me. And me.
Vanessa:Yeah, well, we're getting towards the end. What have we missed? What have we not talked about that we need to talk about?
Phil:I don't. I think we covered a lot. I think we covered it all. Just. Yeah, I think. I mean, I'm trying to, like, Walt, like Disneyland. We didn't do a whole lot of Disneyland stories. Disneyland is. Is where that's, like, the second half of the book. But I think you. I mean, a lot of it is his life, Walt's life. It's really a book about Walt's life. And I think we covered a lot of that on the talk. And I'm really comfortable. I'm pretty comfortable. I think I gave people a lot of nuggets, hopefully. You know, it's. I just want you to know, that's really the goal of it, is to know who Walt Disney is and what or was. And I say is, that's kind of creepy who Walt Disney was. And instead of thinking he's like the guy, instead of thinking he's Betty Crocker and he's just like a. Like a fictional character that run. That is the name on a box. Cause my kids friends, when I asked them about this last year, I was like, was Walt Disney real person? They were like, no. Oh, my God, I gotta write a book. He was real. He lived. And I'm like, holy, right? Really? So my kid knew, of course, but these kids didn't. So I was like, that's, we got to fix this. America's youth is. Needs to know that he's a real. I think we covered it all.
Vanessa:I do have one last question that I thought about while you were talking, because you mentioned Roy, and Roy was, you know, a very strong supporting character in Walt's life. How strong of would Walt Disney World or land or any of these projects, would they have come to fruition, do you think, without Roy? Was he instrumental as.
Phil:As almost as instrumental as well, I think he. What? We never would take that credit when he was alive. He was. He. Walt was terrible with money, terrible with finances. As I said earlier, the Kansas City deal, he didn't leave. He didn't make profit. He just covered. He always cover, like, he covered costs, and that was it. So he made all those films he lost money on. He needed somebody to teach him. And we was a banker. We had been in the military and was a banker in Los Angeles. By the. When Walt really broke in the show business, and when Walt got his first contract from MJ Winkler to make Alice comedies, he got on the public transportation. I think it was a trolley and a bus took it to the. The veterans hospital where Roy was living in a screen, get this, because Roy had. Was recovering from tuberculosis, was in a. In patio hospital mic. Imagine that. Like, all these people with tv in a big screen in patio. And then after visiting hours with a check, and he tells Roy, check it. Like, look at this. Like, this is a check for $15,000 or whatever it was, however many, what it was, I think was 15,000 for the first one. And then, you know, I have thousands of dollars here. And he said, I need, I want to go into business making these cartoons for MJ Winkler. And he said, I need a partner. I can't, I can't do it by myself. And Roy said, as the story goes, Roy said, well, have you figured it out? Have you figured out your costs? Have you figured out what your profit will be? Have you, have you figured out your schedule? Have you figured all this out? And Walt had, on his drive over, had written it all down and figured all the numbers and what it would cost. And finally, and he presented at the Roy, and Roy looked at and said, all right, I'll help you. The next morning, when Roy saw his doctor, the doctor gave him a clean bill of health. And Roy said, can I leave? And he said, yes. And that day, Walt signed a contract, I think it's October, I can't remember the date. Signed a contract with MJ Winkler that started the Disney Brothers studio. And that was the first real like. And he was by his side for everything. I mean, Roy was the one that raised the money to get everything done. One of my favorite things is like when they were making, trying to get movies made in the forties and fifties. There's no money. There's no money. It's during World War Two in the forties. And, and we come into the room and Walt would be working at a story meeting with his guys and he would say, well, we don't have money. We don't have the money for this production. This production. They are making all these, all this art. We don't have the money for this, so we can't do it. And what would go, get out. I'm busy. You'll figure out how to make the money. Get out like that. They had that kind of a tumultuous relationship, but they loved each Adam. They had some fights over the years. They had some big ones. It's a big one for months and months. And then when somebody bets, somebody would make a mistake to wall and go, hey, I saw Roy. He was angry. And what would go, you don't you talk to me about my brother and ever, never. Like, they just, they were brothers and they were fighting, but don't get in between them. And I love it. And when Walt passed away, Walt Disney World could have been, that. Could have been it, but we're going to make this the way that it's, that my brother wanted it. We're going to make this. This is going to be exactly how he wanted it. And there's a funny thing. They wanted to put theme park right next to the exit of I four. They were like, let's put magic kingdom there just in case this doesn't work out. Why would we put theme park in the middle of the property? He said, then we have to build all this infrastructure and highway to get you to theme park. Now. The executives were like, we'll build it right off the highway. And we said, no, you won't. You're gonna build it right? When my brother said, we're gonna build it. Not only that, we're not gonna name it Disney World. It was gonna. It was gonna be called Disney World. And he said, we're gonna call it Disney World after my brother. And. And. Right. The sad part is, I think a month after Walt Disney World opened, Roy dropped that. One month after it opened, he was dead, because all. All the stress, all the. Yeah, literally, he finished his brother's work. Like, he just. He finished it, and that was it. Sad, but he literally was the guy that always had his brother's back, always got the money. Oh, I mean, look. Look what Disney is now. That's all because of him. Like, he had to deal with every banker. He had to deal with his brother's attitude, his brother's ego. Like, hey, I think I can make the best movie in the world. I'm gonna get Dick Van Dyke and Julie Andrews, and I'm gonna put animation in it, and it's gonna be the best movie ever. And everyone was like, hi, I guess we'll get you the money, and we'll see what happens. And it ended up winning the Academy Award. So he was instrumental in doing all of that. And Walt was never comfortable until Disneyland was a giant hit. And you know, when Disneyland, a year after Disneyland, because he always put his money back into his work. Like, he snow seven doors was the biggest hit in the world, and he could have stayed in the Hyperion studio on Hyperion Avenue in Los Angeles, but instead, he put all his money into building a new studio and was like, I want to make it bigger and better and just, you know, he just. The guy just never stopped. And Roy was always there giving him the money, everything, every step of the way. So, yeah, it's a very, very long winded way to answer your question. But, yeah, Roy was as instrumental, I think, as Walt was, for sure.
Vanessa:But it's important to note, because we see these, like, leaders like Walt Disney. And we see, you know, we hear their legends, but there are so many people that are around them that help to support and make it possible for them to make their dreams a reality. And I think that it's so important to remember that there's a lot of other people that were important to making these. These legendary people that we know about and hear about.
Phil:Yeah, I mean, you have Walt. I mean, this is Walt's family. Like his wife Lillian, his daughters, his brothers. Like, I didn't even mention his, you know, his sister Ruth, or his parents. And, you know, I mean, we talked about a little bit, but, yeah, there's a million people behind that and a million people who worked at the Disney studio, like Hazel, George, and, and Tommy. I forget her last name. Walt's Walt's secretary. And all these other people who literally were there every single day. And who were the people who were helping Walt do these insane things every single day? Like, really crazy things. Like, he changed. Like the, say he changed the world, I think is a bit of an understatement. I mean, we have, you know, animals invented animation, basically invented theme park, invented a different way to make movies. Storyboards were created at the Disney studio by one of the Disney artists. Like, just the multiple. The multiplane camera. Like a million things came out of that studio every day, just something new. And it's. That must have been a cool place to work. I've been there. I've walked around the halls and it's you. A couple places in, I've been. You feel Walt Disney's presence. That's one. And the other one is above his. Above the firehouse. His apartment in Disneyland. Above the fire houses. When you're in there, you just go, oh, like, you're like, whoa. I feel. I feel funny. It feels funny. It's weird. I don't know if you believe. I believe in something. I definitely believe in an afterlife. Catholic. Twelve years of catholic school, I believe in that. And I. When I'm in that room, I'm like, it doesn't feel cold, but it's like, whoa. Feel funny here like that. I think it was anywhere where waltz spirit is. It's there. It's in that room.
Vanessa:So do they allow tours of his. Of that apartment now?
Phil:They do, yeah. You have, There's. I forget the name of the tour. But there is. There is a Disneyland tour now that you can sign up for the vip tour guide. And it's on a Disneyland website where you can contact me. Phil Grant, like philator travel.com will help you. And, yeah, we, there is a tour. And you go, it's a part of it is you walk into the apartment with your tour guide. We amazingly, when I took my agents a couple of years ago, I didn't know this. My friend called me and said, listen, my buddy works at Disneyland. He's, listen, I got you a guide. We're going to go in and see the, see Walt's apartment with your agents. I had ten agents, all women, with me, right? And he goes, listen, I need to tell you something before we go in. The vip tour guide that is going to take you into Walt's apartment is Michael Sinatra. And I go, Sinatra? And he goes, it's Frank's grandson. And I was like, are you kidding me? I'm such a freaking Frank Sinatra fan. And I was like, oh, my grandfather raised me on Sinatra, right? So we had to go. I had to go into this. And I couldn't tell any of my agents who he was because I told them that he doesn't hide who he is on the Internet, but I couldn't tell you his name. His social media name is very much in line with his grandfather, but I couldn't tell them who he was. And the whole time he's talking, I'm stared at his eyes because they're bright blue. I'm like, oh, my God, it's Frank's. Not just grandpa. I couldn't even hear him tell stories about Walt. I was just like, staring at him. But, Yeah, he's like, don't tell your agents, but when we leave. So when we left, I was like, that was Frank Sinatra's grandson. Oh, my God. But, he. Yeah, I think I got on his nerves. Frank Sinatra's grandson's nerves, because every story total, I was like, man, I've heard that. I know that one. Get out of the freaking apartment, please.
Vanessa:Yeah, that's too funny.
Phil:Even if Frank Snatcher's grandson isn't there, it's very special.
Vanessa:Absolutely. Okay, well, I obviously need to make my way to Disneyland at some point.
Phil:Yes. Well, reach out.
Vanessa:Okay, I will. And why don't you give us that website one more time at ear two there.
Phil:Travel.com. There's a requested quote form on there, and you can. Yeah, we have. You're probably not going to get me right now. I mean, you might. I probably handle your trip. If you go on there and you request a quote, you'll probably get one of my agents. I have 40 agents that work for me. We have a big team all over the country. I have an agent in what? I have actually one in London. So we're kind of multi nat, you know, national now. So, yeah, people all over the place and, yeah, go to Disneyland. You will not regret it. You need a few days, three or four days.
Vanessa:And can people buy your book from that website, or do they have to go somewhere else?
Phil:Philgramlick.com is where you can get my webs. We get the book. You can get a signed copy there. It's aphilgramlich.com dot. I can get a copy or a non regular, off the shelf kind of copy. Then you could also order a book plate if you're. I have a lot of international people that read about, read these stories. So if you're international, it's. Right now, it's insane to ship a book to you. Like, if I. It costs triple the cost of the book to get me. So I've been signing, like, little stickers that I send you in an envelope, and then you could stick it in your book. So you have a signed copy if you're overseas, and then it's on Amazon. It's trending. Like, whoa. It's going up every day on Amazon. So Amazon.com, you can just look for Walt. This park, I think it's coming to stores, too. I've been trying to get it into stores. I've been. They don't tell you when you write a book. They're like, hey, everyone's like, oh, you wrote a book. Good job. Nobody tells you, like, once you write a book, you have a lot of stuff to do. Like, you're not just like, you act like, you got to do these podcasts. You do interviews. You have to do, like, junkets, you got to do, like, you got to do all kinds of stuff. And one of them is you try to get your book. You have to get your book into stores. And I if your book sells really well, people notice it and buy it and put in stores. If you're like, me and nobody, like, I did pretty good following on social media, but now not really many people know who I am. You gotta ask. You gotta ask. Like, so my poor wife has had a full time job the past couple best week, and she's been calling bookstores, and we're just trying to. I'm trying to get into the airports, and that's what I think. If it's 180 page book, you could read that on a long flight. So I want to get it in all the airports, especially, like, Orlando, Anaheim, Los Angeles, Lax, those kinds of places. But you can get it right now, barnesandnova.com, comma, Amazon.com, and then my website.
Vanessa:And it's an easy read as well because they're a bite sized story. So you can pick it up anywhere. And it doesn't have to necessarily go in order because each story is compact enough.
Phil:Yeah. Each story is its own start, you know, has its own beginning, middle, and end. And you can read them. I say that in the beginning, too. You can read them in any way you want. If you're in the mood for a story about the tiki room, you can look at and read it in this table. Contents. Read the Tiki room story. I didn't put any chapter numbers in the book on purpose. I said, I say that for two reasons. One is because I want you to kind of choose your own adventure, go whichever way you want. But two is because I tried to keep it sequential. But some of the stories, I don't know, like, I would talk to Bob Gur and he was like, I think that was 53. Could have been 58. Like, I'll put it in there.
Phil: We'll see if somebody corrects me. So, yeah, that's why I didn't, yeah, you can pick and pick up a book, and I think it's a good, like, it's a good beach. I think it's, that's what I wanted to be. Like, a good beach read or a good summer reader. Just, you know, for me, the Jersey Shore is the thing that I grew up with. So you're on the Jersey shore on a deck, you know, get a beer at 05:00 p.m. And put your feet up with the sun and read a book about Walt Disney. I think it's cool.
Vanessa:Yeah, it's fun. Interesting. A light read. I would definitely recommend it for a summer read, which.
Phil:Thank you so much. Yeah, please buy it. I've groveled and hocked it enough for the last hour plus already, so.
Vanessa:And we'll add all your links to the show notes, which is on my website, www.fabricafolklore.com. So all those links will be available on under the show notes on the website so people will be able to find them easily and book a trip with you and read your book at the same time.
Phil:Awesome. Hey, that sounds good to me. Vanessa, thank you so much for having me on. This was so much fun.
Vanessa:Thank you, Phil.
Phil:I apologize to your listeners. I know I get really worried when I tell stories. I'm sorry. It's a problem I'm working on. I'm trying. My podcast usually would go. I'd be like, I'm going to try for a 45 minutes podcast. And like 2 hours later my wife and I are looking at each other like, oh, we got to wrap this up. So this is how they go. Thank you so much. Fun.
Vanessa:Well, and thank you folksy folks for joining us on this magical Walt Disney World journey. Like I said, the links will be on our website, the fabric of folklore website, and we love to hear from you whether that is. If you're watching on YouTube, you can comment on the channel, the YouTube comments. We also have a Facebook group where we continue that conversation. It's just fabric of folklore group. We're also on different social medias, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn. So you can find us in all of those different places. I encourage you all to share. Share with your best friend, your mom, your dad, your neighbor, your mailman, whoever you want to stop and tell about the podcast. It's so helpful for any podcasts like ourselves to be found. Thanks so much for unraveling the mysteries of folklore on fabric of folklore. And I'm Vanessa Y. Rogers. Until next time, keep the folk alive.
