Fairy Tale Flip Ep 11: The Cowherd and the Weaver Girl

Have you ever heard of the Chinese fairy tale "The Cowherd and the Weaver Girl?" Maybe you have experienced the festival dubbed by some, the Chinese Valentine's Day Festival which happens on the 7th day of the 7th month of the lunisolar calendar to commemorate the star-crossed lovers from the ancient fairytale? We chat about cultural elements such as the significance of the number seven, the symbolism and creation story involving magpies, the color red, and the importance of weaving skills in ancient society. We discuss the various practices associated with the Qixi festival, including stargazing and prayer for marital skills, while emphasizing the value of cross-cultural storytelling and understanding. Don't miss this lively episode!

Watch the entire story told here
Donna's Pronunciation link 

🧚‍♀️ Introduction to Fairy Tale Flip (00:10 - 05:02)

• Vanessa Y. Rogers hosts Fabric of Folklore podcast
• Co-host Donna Lee Fields runs Scaffolding Magic educational website
• Monthly Fairy Tale Flip examines symbolism and cultural context of fairy tales
• Today's story: The Cowherd and the Weaver Girl from China

📚 Story Summary and Cultural Context (05:02 - 15:15)

• Story involves stars, unrequited love, emotional support, family separation
• Niu Lango (Altar Star) and Chinu (Vega Star) fall in love against rules
• Heavenly Empress separates them, creating Milky Way
• Reunion allowed once a year, inspiring Chinese Valentine's Day
• Importance of researching unfamiliar cultures emphasized

🔍 Symbolism and Cultural Elements (15:15 - 25:55)

• Significance of number seven in Chinese culture discussed
• Magpies symbolize marital bliss and happiness
• Red color symbolizes privilege, authority, and life's blood
• Ox represents stability and safety in Chinese mythology
• Weaving skills highly valued in ancient Chinese society

🌟 Festival and Cultural Practices (25:55 - 37:22)

• Festival called 'Qixi' or 'Night of Sevens'
• Unmarried girls pray for skills and good marriages
• Various cultural practices: stargazing, fruit carving, lantern festivals
• Different versions of the story exist across Asian countries
• Festival celebrates love, skills, and craftsmanship

🌍 Cultural Understanding and Takeaways (37:22 - 52:52)

• Importance of exploring stories from different cultures
• Challenges in understanding unfamiliar cultural references
• Value of multiple interpretations and meanings in folklore
• Emphasis on human similarities across cultures
• Discussion of future topics for upcoming sessions

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Transcript

Vanessa Y Rogers: 00:00 

 Welcome. Welcome to fairy Tale Flip. I am Vanessa Y. Rogers, and I host a podcast called Fabric of Folklore. And my co host today is Donna Lee Fields of scaffolding magic, which is an educational website for teachers. It's a rich resource for any educator out there. And every month, we come together to do one fairy tale flip, which means we take a fairy tale or sometimes a folk tale or a legend, and we kind of flip it on its head, and we kind of look at what its symbolism and what its meaning, what its cultural context is, and try and understand it at a. A deeper level. A lot of times when we read fairy tales, we read them on the surface level, and then we say, hmm, that was interesting, and we move on. But we really want to take the time to look at it from a long viewpoint and a microscopic viewpoint and just see all of its interesting angles. And so Donna is going to give us a. A summary of the story that we're doing today. I don't think I mentioned what it was. The cowherd and the Weaver girl, which is a story from China.

Donna Lee Fields: 01:32 

 Thank you so much, Vanessa. I love doing these with you. I love these conversations about fairy tales because, first of all, I love them, and I love talking about them with you because you are so dedicated to them. And if our listeners will look at your Facebook page and Instagram, you'll see the variety of ways that Vanessa addresses folklore and fairy tales and all the elements. Music, what other. Keep going, keep going. What are the different people you've interviewed?

Vanessa Y Rogers: 02:04 

 Traditions, celebrations. Well, in October, especially, I like to do different kind of folk tales, or I'm going to have someone come on, talk about superstitions, and we're going to have someone talk about vampire burials, how the idea of vampires came about, and how people treated those grave sites if they thought that the person might be of a supernatural element. I've had lots of different guests on that. Talk about. I had some last year in October, I had someone talk about ghosts all around the world and how ghosts are perceived differently in different places in the world. Like in some places, they are thought to be corporeal, which means that they are physical, which means that people could interact with them, have children with ghosts. Even. So, it's interesting to think about how our perspectives are different and shaped by our culture.

Donna Lee Fields: 03:16 

 And that's exactly what I was going to talk about. Vanessa's culture, and we're picking different cultures today. It's on the chinese culture, and it's difficult for us because neither of us have family, and we're not from China. We don't know that culture very well. So we're doing our best. And so one thing we're modeling is how to explore a culture superficially at first, a little more profoundly later on, and then ways that you can find more research resources to go even deeper. So if you can take us as a model, don't be afraid to find as much information as you can and then keep looking, because when you're not from that culture, we're always filtering it through our own. We're always filtering it through our own experiences. But any research is better than no research. So that's what I find.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 04:05 

 And I find, to your point, when we are doing research for stories that I've never heard of in a culture that I've never really experienced, it's very daunting. I find it incredibly daunting because it's hard to grasp on to reference points because everything that I'm reading is new to me. And so I need to read it at least four or five times before I really start to understand what it is that I'm reading and have something to hold onto. Because when I read one thing and then I get confused about another thing, then I have to go research that again, and then I have to research something else until it kind of starts to make sense in my head. And it takes a lot longer when you are immersing yourself in a different culture.

Donna Lee Fields: 05:01 

 Really well said. And I think that's exactly what we might do. A lot of us might do without realizing it, we start reading the story, and we're going to get into this story summary. But I was a literature teacher, and I love symbolism. So I see symbolism in everything. Everything. And I love sort of playing around with the idea, and nobody is right or wrong. When we look at symbolism, if it's in our own culture, when it's in another culture, like you said, I'm reading the cow herd and the weaver girl and looking at stars. Well, what do stars mean in chinese mythology? Or an ox? What does the ox mean in chinese mythology? And so every single thing, you know, why? What do stars mean? There's different meanings of stars in chinese mythology, but the important thing is to recognize that all of these are symbolic because they appear in the story and that they might have different meanings. And what I have to do to myself continually, Vanessa, I don't know if you have to, is sort of just keep breathing because there's. I keep thinking I have to find the right answer. The right answer. There is no one right answer. But maybe there's more meaningful answers than others. So that's what Vanessa and I are trying to do, wouldn't you say?

Vanessa Y Rogers: 06:13 

 Yeah, absolutely.

Donna Lee Fields: 06:16 

 So we're doing the cowherd and the Weaver girl. And a quick summary. It turns out I didn't even realize this when I. I think I chose it or Vanessa chose it. In any case, we decided on it. It's one of the most cherished fairy tales in China, because it has to do with the stars. It has to do with unrequited love and also eternal love. You know, sort of that paradox. It has to do with emotional support from friends. It has to do with family, separating the family and trying to get them back together. It's talking about injustice, which people always love. You know, they love to get behind injustice and find it. And the ending is not actually completely resolved. So this has a really great expanse in chinese mythology, and I think that Vanessa and I sort of resonated with that, and we wanted to explore it. So the summary, I think I read this one, Vanessa. I think I have this on both of our YouTube channels. If you'd like to hear the story, please go into one of our channels and I read it to you, and you'll see Vanessa reading others. And it's really simple. Niu Longo. And please forgive me for pronunciation. I did go into some pronunciation help with the festival that came out of this fairy tale, but for the time being, I know Nyu Lango is also known as the altar Star, and he's the cowherd, and Chinu, who is the Vega star, and she's the weaver girl. They're stars, and they fall in love, but their love is forbidden in chinese mythology. And Zeno is also the granddaughter of the heavenly empress, and her grandmother is not happy about the romance. It goes against all of the rules, and she didn't give permission. You can fall in love if you have her permission, and they didn't ask her. So what she does is she sends Nyulango the cowherd to earth. He becomes a cowherd. But one day, Chino goes to earth with some of her star sisters, and they're bathing. And she and Nyolango find each other, and they marry and have two children. But the heavenly empress finds out. She is furious. She sends soldiers to bring Chinu back to the heavens, but Niu Longo follows her up to the heavens with their children. This cranky grandmother creates the Milky Way. She creates the Milky Way to separate them. They can't cross over on it. But after many petitions from other stars. The heavenly empress finally lets the family reunite, but only on the 7th day of the seven months of every year, so only once a year. And that festival is now known as. And let me see if I can pronounce this correctly. Si. Si. It sounds almost the same, but I'm adding cc, and it's sort of their second Valentine's Day, so we'll talk about that. But that's the summary of the story.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 09:19 

 So, Vanessa, what was your first impression of this story? Like what? Why were you drawn to it?

Donna Lee Fields: 09:28 

 I think part of it is injustice. I hate injustice. I hate it. And the heavenly empress separated two lovers. I mean, love. Everything is solved with love. Everything is solved with love. And to separate two beings just because of love, I think that's what got me. Yeah. What about you?

Vanessa Y Rogers: 09:47 

 Well, yes, I. And even the end of the story makes me sad, because it's almost more tragic that they get to see each other once a year, because that's if you're deeply in love with someone, and, you know, the father has the children, the mother only gets to see her children and her lover once a year. That just doesn't seem enough to me, even. That just seems, I don't know, too sad? Cruel. Yes, exactly. And I do want to note that the story that you told is different than some of the stories that you'll find out there if you do any research on the cow herd and the weaver. Because some stories actually start out with a cow herde being on earth. But I prefer the one that Donna was telling, where he starts out as a star or a celestial being, and then is driven to the mortal lands. And I don't think he knows. He doesn't know that he was a celestial being before. And in some versions, even he has an ox with him, who is also a fallen star. And it ends up being Taurus, the star. Taurus, I think we call him the bull in the stars. And he helps the cow herd to find his lover because he remembers. The ox remembers, while the cow herd himself doesn't. And so he's the one who kind of, like, helps to push him. And there's a sad part at the end, when there's a version with the oxyde, he sacrifices himself so that the boy, the cow herd, can either use his skin as shoes or as a cape to help fly up to the heavens so he can be with his love. And I really like that element of the story just because I think it adds, you know, friendship and sacrifice. And the ox fell from the skies, in part because he was so frustrated with the injustice of it all. And so I really like that, that version.

Donna Lee Fields: 12:16 

 Okay. Yeah. And I actually wrote some questions, you know, the symbolism of the ox. But one thing that I realized that also really resonates with me is I often go to the spiritual side of it because I'm very interested in not just the 3d world we're living in, but the spiritual world, the world we can see when we close our eyes or just have a higher vibration when we are in love. And as we're both saying is that love is so important. And if some. A lot of people believe, and I'm one of those people, we choose what we believe, that some of us are more aware of different dimensions than others. And the story, especially the way you were just describing the relationship between the cow herd and the ox, is exactly that. Some of us are very. We've forgotten. We've forgotten where we came from, from the stars. I mean, our bodies are literally made from the same stuff as stars. Some of us have forgotten that, and others of us haven't. So the cowherd forgot that he was a star, and the ox remembered. And the ox doesn't tell him until the. The girl, the weaver girl, comes down to earth. And then it doesn't say that the cowherd remembers, but he does pay attention to this being the ox who remembers different dimensions. And he luckily listens to the ox, because it's the ox that tells him to go to a lake at a certain time and pick up a red dress and see what happens. And red is. So that's where I'm getting, you know, I like to. I like to put it, parallel it to our lives as well. So the fairy tales are important to us. Why? Because they resonate in different parts of our being, in our lives. That's another part.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 14:06 

 So, yeah, tell us about the red dress. You said you see symbolism in the red dress.

Donna Lee Fields: 14:11 

 Yeah, it's really interesting because the ox tells the cowherd to find the girls in the lake and to pick up the red dress. So what is the symbolism between. Of red? In chinese mythology, red is different symbolisms in many different, but in many different cultures. But in Chinese, if you think about it, see, if someone were from a culture in China, they would. They wouldn't even think about red. I am not from that chinese culture. And so I had to realize that, yes, whenever we see festivals or whenever we see parade, there's always red. It's very prominent in chinese culture.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 14:49 

 It's on their flag.

Donna Lee Fields: 14:51 

 It's on their flag. So what does red mean? Red can mean it's often thought of as a symbol of privilege and authority. It's also seen as life's blood. Those two things. I don't know if you had a chance to research it, but did you?

Vanessa Y Rogers: 15:10 

 No, I didn't even think about the color red. So I love that you delved into it.

Donna Lee Fields: 15:14 

 Yeah, that's the literature teacher side of me.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 15:17 

 Yes.

Donna Lee Fields: 15:18 

 What other. So the ox as well. We can go back to the ox, but the ox is very important in the story. And I love that you're saying that it's about sacrifice for friendship, because the ox did sacrifice himself. What other things stuck out for you?

Vanessa Y Rogers: 15:36 

 Well, can I go back to the color red? Because she goes down not by herself, but with her sisters. And are there seven sisters altogether? Do you remember?

Donna Lee Fields: 15:46 

 I have the story in front of me. I'm not sure if it put. Let me see.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 15:51 

 The reason I ask is because I did do some research on the number seven. And seven was considered lucky in some instances because of the seven colors of the rainbow. And so I wonder if the other sisters are wearing the colors of the rainbow.

Donna Lee Fields: 16:11 

 Okay, so it doesn't. In my version of the story, I don't see that it says seven, but that's really interesting because the festival is now on the 7th day of the 7th month.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 16:22 

 Right.

Donna Lee Fields: 16:23 

 So that all fits together.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 16:26 

 Yeah, that's why I did the research on the number seven, because I was curious, like what that number signified to those in China. And there's a lot of different symbolism of the number seven. In some instances, it's considered lucky for relationships because of the way it sounds. And Mandarin, sometimes it sounds like even arise or life essence. So some people see it as a lucky number, while some people consider it an unlucky number because the 7th month is also known as the ghost month in China. And during this month, ghosts and spirits are believed to arise from hell to visit Earth. And so I guess it just really depends on what perspective you're looking at there. Also, there's other connections. So we're going to talk more about the stars, but the seven stars of the Big Dipper. The Big Dipper is a prominent constellation on the northern hemisphere. It has seven stars. And in chinese mythology, these stars associated with the sun, seven sons of the deity DOmu, who were considered the guardians and protectors. And the Big Dipper is often associated with luck and fortune and guidance. There are seven treasures in ancient China, there were seven treasures that symbolized wealth, prosperity and power. They included gold, silver, pearls, agate, crystal, coral, lapis, lazuli. And so it became associated with abundance and good fortune, I think, in so what I'm gathering from the research that I did. Oh, the rainbow is mentioned here, too. The seven colors of the rainbow with the seven distinct colors has cultural significance in many societies, including China and chinese mythology. The rainbow is believed to be a celestial bridge connecting heaven and earth, and it represents the harmony and balance and unity. And there was a little cartoon that I actually watched when I was kind of researching the story, and it had the seven. It had seven sisters floating down the rainbow. Now, there's lots and lots of different versions, so not all of them have this rainbow in it, and some of them have them as birds flying down. But I thought that that was really interesting.

Donna Lee Fields: 18:55 

 This is how well Vanessa researched these stories. I just love it. And what I'm finding is it leads me really logically to magpies, because what I didn't mention in the summary is that at the 7th day of the 7th month, the family is reunited by a bridge created by magpies. They fly over the Milky Way. And magpies. I mean, when I say magpies, I don't think of anything really beautiful. A beautiful connotation doesn't come to me. However, in chinese mythology, they're sign of. Sorry, they're sign of mess. They're a sign of messengers. They're crafty birds, highly intelligent. They are often seen as transformational, and they're really well respected. I didn't expect that.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 19:48 

 Well, so I find that really interesting that you don't see magpies as beautiful. Did you grow up around them?

Donna Lee Fields: 19:57 

 No, all I knew about them was in stories, and magpies were always sort of the evil birds.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 20:02 

 Really? Yeah. That's interesting. So the first time I can. I know exactly. I have it in my mind. The first time I saw a magpie was in the. When I moved to South Korea to teach English, and it was very cold outside, and we wore these, like, giant coats and that were given to us by the school. And I remember seeing it on the sidewalk and being aghast at how beautiful it was. I thought it was gorgeous because of the blue and the white, and it shimmered in the sunlight. And I. And I was told that, you know, magpies especially love to collect shiny things, and so they were always trying to find treasures for themselves. And so I also did research on magpies, and I personally think they're one of my. They're one of my favorite birds. I think that they're gorgeous. I also did some research and they said people symbolize them as marital bliss, a pair of magpies and bliss, marital happiness and fidelity. And I found a story that was really interesting that comes from a specific section in China called the Manchu culture. And they actually ruled China with the Qing dynasty. They ruled for 268 years, up until 1912. And they have a story with the magpie that is part of their creation story, which I really love. So I'll just. It's a really short story. Basically, people started out as fairies. Three fairies were playing in the Tianji lake at the summit of Chiang Bai mountain, and this is an area near North Korea, so the northeastern part of mainland China. And the magpie was holding a red fruit in its beak, and it flew past these three fairies, and one of the fairies managed to snatch the fruit, and she ate it. But before long, she became pregnant and later gave birth to a boy, who was the earliest ancestors of the Manchu people. So, magpies for this particular culture were revered, and they would do doing rituals and sacrifices to the gods. They would also prepare food for the magpies, which I really love.

Donna Lee Fields: 22:33 

 Wow. That's wonderful. I think that's so interesting how much you really appreciate magpies and how my. I never even realized how much I really had a poor opinion of them.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 22:45 

 And they're so smart. I mean, I think they're as smart as the crow, right? They're problem solvers, and they're just very intelligent creatures.

Donna Lee Fields: 22:55 

 And actually, I think yesterday, I was looking at some hawks flying, and there was another bird that was absolutely gorgeous. I mean, I'd never seen it before, and I was. My breath was taken away, and I'm pretty sure it was a magpie, so I understand why you have this appreciation for them. And yet, from stories, I grew up not liking them. I think it was maybe Disney movies. They always had magpies or evil.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 23:20 

 What? I don't remember ever seeing a magpie in a Disney movie.

Donna Lee Fields: 23:25 

 Maybe they were crows, but I don't know. Maybe our listeners can tell us. I thought they were magpies and wasn't very pretty.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 23:31 

 That's so funny. We'll have to dig deeper into this. We need to find out the root of your dislike for magpies now.

Donna Lee Fields: 23:40 

 Yeah, poor things. Poor things. You know, I've just had prejudice for them all my life. Well, let's go. Okay, so a little more. Let's go into a little more symbolism. And some of this is just my idea or your idea. Again, there's no right or wrong, and I'd love to know what our listeners think about this. But, for instance, the ox. The ox plays a really important part in this story. If it weren't for the ox, then the cowherd wouldn't have known that the weaver girl was going to be at the lake, and also, he wouldn't have had a way to follow her back up into the heavens. So what I found in chinese mythology is the ox is like, in India, it's the cow that's revered. In China, the ox is revered and usually symbolizes stability and safety. So I'm wondering if you found anything out about it or if that resonates with you at all. Vanessa.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 24:30 

 No, again, I did not look up the ox at all. In fact, I don't actually know the difference between an ox and a cow. Now that you're mentioning this. I'm like, what is the difference? I can tell the difference between a buffalo and a cow sometimes. I mean, american buffalo. Yes. But I'm talking asian buffaloes, water buffaloes, they're very similar to cows. I don't know the difference. And maybe if I saw a picture, I could distinguish it.

Donna Lee Fields: 25:01 

 You would be able to distinguish it? Yeah. Oxen have horns, and usually the bulls. Cows don't have horns, but oxenst usually. Usually. This might show my ignorance, but all pictures I've seen of oxen are brown, and cows are usually spotted or mostly white. So you'd know oxen have a little longer neck. They're really labor animals. Cows are meant to just be out there munching on grass.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 25:27 

 Well, they. Yeah, but there's, like, the longhorn. The longhorns are many colors. They have brown. They have very long horns. Then there's the brahma or the brahma. Sorry. I went to a school that their mascot was Brehma. No, it's called brahma. We called it a rama. I don't know why we mispronounced it. And those are cows as well. But they are very weird looking. I don't know. I don't know.

Donna Lee Fields: 25:52 

 And I think oxen are just a little shorter. But again, this is someone from the east coast talking about oxen that I've never actually seen. And you're from the. You're texan, and you see a lot of cows, so, yeah, they're a long hoard cows. But oxen are different. I think that they're. They're more muscular and a little shorter.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 26:12 

 And used more for labor. Yeah, I think you're right. I did look up the difference between a cow herd and cowboy because I was unsure about the terminology of what a cow herd was, and basically, a cow herd and cowboy are basically the same thing. But cowboy is used for the american west. It was really coined here in America with all of the cowboy shows and the ideology around what happened in the american west with moving cattle herds across America. But they're basically the same thing. They're cow take caretakers. And so someone who's in the workforce might have a different thought process on it, but I basically. You think of a shepherd. They're basically a shepherd for cows.

Donna Lee Fields: 27:07 

 Yeah, no, no. Interesting distinction. Distinction. I never thought about that. How about, why don't we talk about. I know you have so many things that you research. How about if we talk about the very fact that in chinese mythology, stars are not allowed to fall in love without permission? So, because usually these things there for a reason. My thinking, and this is just, I didn't think really deeply about that, but my first reaction is stars aren't supposed to fall in love because then the magnetic attraction between them would sort of pull apart or disorganize all the constellations if they want to be together and closer. What do you think? I'm putting you a little bit on the spot, but you have such good ideas, you're going to come up with one.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 27:54 

 I mean, today, scientifically, that makes sense, but I'm not sure that they would have thought about it in that way. I think that they. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what their level of understanding of astronomy was. I know that they had a strong understanding of the stars in terms of their positions and their movements. They studied the stars a lot, in part because they felt that the stars had influence on mortal life on earth. But I don't know that they understood how the celestial bodies worked in terms of their magnetism and black holes and how they would move together and circle one another. So I don't know. To me, that seems like a more modern idea than. Than they would have had. I did look into the stars as well, because I saw that in chinese mythology, there was a lot of what is called star worship, because they would see the stars oftentimes as gods. And at some point during chinese religion, some people would integrate star worship with ancestral veneration and ancestor like honoring. And some people saw their ancestors going up into the stars as well. There were a lot of interesting elements. So they had, heaven worship was closely related with ancestor veneration. Ancestors and gods were seen as mediators between heaven and humans because they felt that the celestial presence had influence on earth. I don't know how to pronounce the name of this star, the certain star, Shu Shing, was associated with canopus and was thought to control the lifespans of us mortals. This was really interesting. The emperor of China, known as the sun of heaven, derived his mandate of heaven partially through his supposed ability to commune with heaven on behalf of his nation. The communication often involves ancestral rituals, connecting celestial worship with veneration of royal ancestors. And if you recall, the same thing, type of thing was happening in other places, in Egypt. Right? In Egypt, they would say that they had the blessings of the gods, right? And that's how they got their, their throne in England and all of the thrones in Europe. Right? Is that what we saw? They required the blessings from the christian God, right.

Donna Lee Fields: 30:50 

 I think also about chinese astrology is that we like to think in the west that we know everything. And I think there's a certain arrogance and we forget that so many of what we're discovering now through our scientists were already pretty much understood hundreds of thousands of years ago in chinese astrology. And I think Chinese, the Chinese probably didn't understand the magnetic field, but they did understand that no matter how much life changed on earth, the stars remained pretty much intact, and they could get an orientation in their lives by the consistency of the stars. And so, in their mind, when we fall in love on earth, life becomes chaotic. You know that very well. It's nice to think that love is romantic and that it makes life so much better. And yet so many things happen once we fall in love. And I think that some people like to see the stars as a constant. And so to integrate the idea that no stars can fall in love unless there's permission, it sort of creates this idea that no matter what happens on earth, no matter how chaotic our life gets, things are gonna stay in the stars. We can count on them, and they are living beings, but they're gonna stay in their places, and they're not going to move around. We're not going to have chaos in the heavens. Even though we have heaven, we have chaos down here. That's how I see it. Mmm.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 32:25 

 That is, yeah, I like that. Although, you know, this, this, the idea of these two lovers coming together was because the two stars during our month of August is usually when they're their festivals happening. The chishing, I, when I looked up the pronunciation, it sounded like chishing. I am not good with languages, so I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna refute you on your pronunciation, looking up. But evidently, those two stars in the heavens, look, they come together, they look closer together during this time frame. And that's kind of the thought process of why this idea of the cowherd and the weaver girl story started to come about. That's what they believe initiated the story. And I went and looked a little bit in the history of the story, and it is thought to be at least 2000 years old. And it was originally referenced in a book called the classic of poetry. It has a lot of different. A lot of different names. Sometimes it's called the Book of Songs. Sometimes it's called the Book of Odes in Chinese. Again, I'm going to butcher this, but it's considered one of the five classics. This book is considered one of the five trash classics traditionally said to have been compiled by Confucius. But it's important to note that in this book, there's not the romantic narrative. It's just the poetry mentions these two celestial stars together. And later on, it is believed that storytellers and song writers came up with the love between these two individuals as actual lovers. And then it evolved into something else, right?

Donna Lee Fields: 34:42 

 Because they got smart and they realized you put a little romance in a story, and all of a sudden everybody's interested, and that's.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 34:47 

 Everybody loves romance. Everybody loves a romance.

Donna Lee Fields: 34:50 

 Everybody loves romance. So let's talk about symbolism. There are two really important pieces of symbolism in this romance. The first one is that the male star gets sent to the earth and the female star stays in the heavens. That's the first one. So I'm wondering why the heavenly empress kept her granddaughter in the heavens and sent down what we think is not a blood relation. The boy down to earth, and he becomes a cowherd. So my first thought is that when we look at the stars, they're venerated, they're beautiful. We say, oh, my goodness. You know, the stars are brilliant. We look at them, we don't think about their personality, even though I do believe that they are living beings, and perhaps you do, too. But we look at them, they're supposed to be venerated. They're supposed to be appreciated for the light that they're sending out. And that's often, unfortunately, in many cultures, what, women are supposed to be objects, whereas the men, she sends him down to earth and he becomes abused by his family, and then he becomes a cowherd. So he works for a living. So men are often depicted as the breadwinner for the family is the worker. I'm not saying I approve of that. I'm saying that's what usually happens in cultures. So I'm just wondering what you think of the whole dynamic of the girl staying in the sky and the cowbird going to earth.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 36:11 

 Well, the reason. So the reason she's called the weaver girl is because she's in charge of weaving the clouds. So it might be in part that, you know, she had to do her job. There's an interesting variation that I found in Japan where she works so hard, and she's so she works all the time. She's always weaving. And in the japanese version, she's not weaving clouds. She's weaving material for her father, beautiful material. And in that version, he sees that his daughter is sad, and he decides to help her find lover. And he actually, I think she finds the cowherd, or they, he helps them come together, and they, they become lovers, and they love each other so much, they both stop working. She doesn't loom. She doesn't weave. Sorry. Loom is not a verb. And he, he stops herding cows, and they're just wandering around the heavens. And so they're separated in part because neither of them are doing their jobs, because they're so infatuated with one another. And so he takes pity on them, and once a year, allows them to stop working and come together. And so, you know, and that makes me think life was hard during those times, and there was so, you know, there's so much work that always had to be done, and it was important to, like, keep working even when you were deeply in love. And I don't know.

Donna Lee Fields: 38:03 

 Well, yeah, it's really interesting, and I'm so glad you brought the weaving up, because that's a very important part of the story. And in the version I read, the grandmother, the heavenly empress, asked her to do it, made her, obligated her to do it as a punishment. And so she had to weave without stopping. She was weaving constantly, and as you said, she was weaving clouds, and her star sisters were the ones that went to the heavenly empress and said, we want to go take a vacation on earth. Can we take along our star sister? And the empress led her because the poor girl was so exhausted that she said, okay, okay. After these thousands of years weaving, you can go to earth. But the celebration that comes out of this fairy tale is about, is called a festival to plead for skills. And I will put the link in the show notes where I found the pronunciation, and I completely respect the fact you found other pronunciation. I mean, we just don't know. What I found was si tse festival is also called the festival to plead for skills. And so the second Valentine's Day in China is this ancient custom where the unmarried girls, they pray to the weaver girl because what they want, she showed that she had very dexterous hands and needle crafting skills. And they asked for that because in ancient customs, a girl was more desirable aside from having very, very small feet. Unfortunately, a girl was more desirable if she could. She had skills weaving, and they were more potential as wives. So the festival is still honored for that.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 39:37 

 And what does that make you think of? Rumpelstiltskin. Right. Rumpelstiltskin. That is. That is the skill she had to have with spinning. Right. This was an incredibly important skill for women, even all across the world, it seems. Right. This is. It's really interesting that, that I hadn't even thought of that until you brought that up just now. Yes. This festival is not just in China, it's all over Asia. It was originated in China, but lots of other countries have kind of taken this story for themselves and they've made it their own. And there's lots of different variations in all the. A lot of the different asian countries in Taiwan and Japan and Korea, and a lot of them have their own festivals. Festival. I hadn't heard that, that name of the festival. I heard double. I read double. 7th festival, the night of sevens, the Magpie festival, the chinese Valentine's Day. So evidently there's lots of different names. Yes. People pray for skills and craftsmen. I think men also pray for good craft skills as well, especially if they are in the agricultural world. There's things like people make wishes for love marriages. And I think that there's love make love matches. People who help to give guidance to parents and to lovers or unmarried women, especially to find a good husband. There's demonstrations for skills like threading in low light. In some festivals, they have children hanging flowers on the horns of the oxen. And on this day, a lot of couples treat it like a Valentine's Day. They give chocolate and roses, probably because they've seen that from west, they've taken that from the west. But people practice stargazing during this time. And they also make these really elaborate, intricate melons. So they take a fruit and they shape it into these beautiful shapes and which are really beautiful when you get to see them. In Japan, in the festival, they take a bamboo plant, they bring it into the house and they hang pictures of the two stars on it. And some people also take colorful strips and hang those right wishes and hang them on the bamboo branches. In Korea, people eat wheat noodles and wash their hair for good luck. And then there's different lantern festivals that are also included in this festival. Festival that I. That just, like, kind of pops into my brain that. I don't know if you ever read any Victoria Holt books.

Donna Lee Fields: 42:53 

 No. No.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 42:54 

 So I actually thought her. She wrote much earlier, but she was actually a writer in the seventies, and I did not realize that when I. But I have this book. It was one of my favorite books that I just, like, randomly picked up in this. It's a famous bookstore in Oregon. It's called Powell, I think. And it's the largest independent bookstore. It takes up an entire city block. And I remember when I was in high school, I went and visited my aunt in Oregon, and we spent, like, an entire day just, like, roaming this bookstore. But I found this book. It's called the night of the 7th moon. And it's a Victoria Holt book, and I think it's one of her most popular ones. And I. I was like, the night of the 7th moon? Well, that sounds exactly like this. And it was based off in. In the story, a girl goes to a festival, and it's a midsummer festival with the Loki, and it's about the Loki, the God of mischief, is large at the world. But I went and looked up that was an actual festival that happens in Germany, because the book takes place in Germany, and it's not. So I. It makes me curious if somehow Victoria Holtz, like, found out about this festival in China, because there is not a festival in Germany that's called the night of the 7th moon. But it seems very interesting that this would happen around the same time as what's happening in China.

Donna Lee Fields: 44:17 

 Well, I just wrote it down, and I did a search, so I'm going to look at it later. But I found a lot of books on that that are based on fairy tales, and they're just lovely different versions, and they sort of extend the whole idea, include a lot of modern elements in it, but it has the basic platform of the fairy tale. So I'll look into it and see what I can find out. It is very romantic, the 7th moon, but your comment segues really easily. And this. This hour is flown by Vanessa. We're almost into the, you know, the hour point, but there is one more symbolism I'd love to talk about, and that it's not necessarily symbolism, but it's a dynamic. Why is it that the mother is separated from the father and the children? Why is it in this society, in western society, this would never have happened. The children would have been. Even in a fairy tale, they would have been sequestered with the mother. And in this fairy tale, they're sequestered by the father. I find it fascinating. So I actually did not, unfortunately, find anything or nothing has come up for me yet about why that would have happened happen. But the children actually do have names, and they are stars. And the heavens in that same part of the sky. They're called Tarazad and Alshane. So the children are also honored as stars. But I'm wondering why they stay with the father.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 45:36 

 I wonder if it's because of their position in the sky. I wonder if they just look closer to the father than they do to the mother.

Donna Lee Fields: 45:44 

 Well, they are. They are situated next to the star known as the cow herd, known as the. The Alstair. But in the beginning, they could have just called that Star Vegas, or that could have been the mother. You know, just someone decided in the culture it was okay to keep the children with the father. It's just something to think about.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 46:05 

 So I really also like the symbolism of the Milky Way being a river, a heavenly river. Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful imagery. And in one version, actually, one version of the story, it's created by a comb. I'm trying to see if I can find that version, because there were a lot of different versions. There was one version where the girl, the cowherd, borrows money from the heavenly emperor to marry the weaver girl. And he's unable to pay, and he's forced into hard labor. And because the weaver girl becomes so distraught, she ends up actually having an affair with another man on earth. And so that one is more of like a marital strife version. And so they end up not. She ends up being in love with another man.

Donna Lee Fields: 47:02 

 Interesting. Well, in this version, the one we're talking about, let's not get too diverted, because remember, we were talking about eternal love. So we don't want this. This woman all of a sudden fall in love with another star.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 47:14 

 But the reason I did mention. Okay, so she leaves him, and she creates the Milky Way with her silver hairpin, the weaver girl.

Donna Lee Fields: 47:24 

 See, this is interesting. Now, this is the first time I focused on the fact that the heavenly empress, with a wave of her hairpin, creates the Milky Way. So now I want to know about the symbolism of the hairpin. Yeah, that's a whole nother discussion that I'm not prepared to talk about now. But I think that's fascinating. Hair also is really important. So more symbolism. See, all the symbolism.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 47:45 

 Yeah, I love that you really had a focus on symbolism in this story. Because I think that is really important. Yeah. And it is beautiful when you think about the Milky Way being a river and the stars being lovers, and it makes you, I don't know, hopeful in a way, even if the story is ultimately sad.

Donna Lee Fields: 48:12 

 Well, they do get together once a year. And in the stars once. You mean there's so many. When we're talking about infinity, you know, infinity. There's. You can't feel too badly. Maybe once a year doesn't feel quite as bad to them.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 48:26 

 Yeah. Yeah.

Donna Lee Fields: 48:27 

 We'll see. So, as a takeaway, what do we want our listeners to take away from this story? Vanessa, what do you take away most from the story?

Vanessa Y Rogers: 48:37 

 Well, I think the biggest takeaway is that it's important that we branch out from the stories that we've grown up with and european fairy tales, because there's a lot to be gained from reading and hearing stories from other cultures and especially seeing, you know, their symbolism and their similarities and differences. And so I really like that we're branching out. Even though we are not experts in Asia, in asian mythology, we are trying our best to do in depth research so that we can have a deeper understanding of it. And I think that, you know, for me, on my podcast, that's really what I emphasize, is that it's really important for us to understand that all humans are humans. We're all one human race. And so we sometimes have this focus on the other. Like, those people over there. They're not like us. But there are so many similarities, and even the differences are fun to notice as well, because those differences can also bring us together.

Donna Lee Fields: 49:49 

 That is so gorgeous, Vanessa. That is so gorgeous. Thank you for that.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 49:55 

 What about you? What are your thoughts? What are your final thoughts?

Donna Lee Fields: 49:57 

 I think I'm going to go back to what I was saying in the beginning. Is that not to be. It's similar not to be afraid of encouraging, looking into other cultures and not be afraid to do it. And in my case, in my teacher workshops, I always tell teachers, try not to have one correct answer. There are many different answers that could be correct. And so when I'm researching fairy tales, sometimes I get very anxious because I feel I have this responsibility to find the correct meaning, the correct symbolism, the correct historical relationship. And, in fact, maybe there isn't anything correct, but anything that I can find that adds to the discussion and makes it a little more fun and meaningful. That's what I want to do, and that's what I hope our listeners will do. And I think that every session you and I have, we get a little more relaxed about this and have a little more fun, because I think we're discovering also that even though we have such a strong desire to know fairy tales from other cultures, we are not from other cultures, and yet the exploration is so much fun and meaningful.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 51:06 

 Absolutely. Well, I think that has been a really fantastic discussion, and we would love to hear what our listeners. Have you heard of the story or have you heard of this festival? And if you've been to the festival, can you tell us? We would love for any of our listeners who've been to the festival to tell us about their experience. I think that that would be really fascinating.

Donna Lee Fields: 51:31 

 Nice idea. Nice, Vanessa. So when will we see. We're going to see each other again in a month. In the meantime, please, please sign up. Please post. Look at Vanessa's post on Facebook because her fabric of folklore podcast is so interesting. And so what is?

Vanessa Y Rogers: 51:52 

 Unfortunately, my group is not active right now because I cannot admin it after my Facebook got hacked, I still don't have admin access to my Facebook group, which is very sad. So I'm having to decide whether or not to create another one, which I will let people know if I'm going to just create another one or just keep holding out hope that Facebook's gonna readmit me as an admin.

Donna Lee Fields: 52:19 

 All right, in the meantime, next month, we're already into. We're gonna. At the end of October, we have another session. Is that right? And are we going to.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 52:27 

 And I would like to miss a little macabre or Halloween, if we can. So if anyone has ideas, we'd love to hear them. Yeah.

Donna Lee Fields: 52:38 

 Oh, it sounds good. So wonderful, Vanessa. We will see each other again in a month, and we can't wait to hear what our listeners think and some of their ideas.

Vanessa Y Rogers: 52:47 

 Absolutely. And until next time, keep the fairy tales alive.