Ep 65: Superstitions and Folklore Around the World with D.R. McElroy

Do you knock on wood or hold your breath when driving past a graveyard? Superstitions are a fascinating aspect of cultures worldwide. In episode 65, D.R. McElroy explores various superstitions from every major continent, delving into their psychological roots and their prevalence in performance-based professions. Following the structure of the handbook, each segment highlights a unique superstition as we journey around the globe. Join us for this intriguing exploration of superstitions!

Book: Superstitions, A Handbook

•  Dr. McElroy's Journey and Book Writing Process (05:34 - 11:55)
• Dr. McElroy explains how she got started writing about superstitions
• Discusses the research process and challenges during COVID-19
• Explains the book's structure by continents and her selection criteria
• Research Challenges and Focus on Russia (11:56 - 20:48)
• Discusses language barriers in research
• Highlights Russia as the most interesting country during research
• Explains the rich folklore and traditions in Russian culture
• Russian Folklore and Literature (20:49 - 30:29)
• Discusses the Winter Night Trilogy by Katherine Arden
• Explains the unique creatures and spirits in Russian folklore
• Highlights the pagan roots of many Russian folklore elements
• Book Structure and Target Audience (30:30 - 40:17)
• Explains the book's structure as a 'tasting plate' of folklore
• Discusses the target audience as those new to folklore
• Highlights the book's design and illustrations
• Origins of Superstitions (40:18 - 51:22)
• Explains how superstitions arise from humanity's need to control the environment
• Discusses the psychological aspects of holding onto negative information
• Highlights superstitions in sports and performance
• African and Middle Eastern Folklore (51:23 - 01:02:03)
• Discusses the vastness and mystery of Africa
• Highlights Egyptian folklore and its historical context
• Explains the Epic of Gilgamesh and its influence on literature
• Asian and American Folklore (01:02:04 - 01:11:00)
• Compares Asian and African civilizations
• Discusses Hindu superstitions and their practical reasons
• Highlights folklore from North and South America
• European and Australian Folklore (01:11:01 - 01:19:56)
• Discusses the blending of European cultures
• Highlights the superstition of throwing coins in fountains
• Discusses Australian folklore, particularly about geckos

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Transcript

Vanessa: 0:08

Welcome, welcome folksy folks. Welcome to Fabric of Folklore podcast. I am Vanessa Y. Rogers, your hostess, and this is a show about discovery, a discovery of our legends, our stories, our traditions. For instance, Day of the Dead is a tradition that's quickly approaching and it is celebrated in much of north and Central America. Marigolds are used in the Day of the Dead celebrations to decorate altars or a friend us to honor the deceased loved ones. Their bright orange yellowish hue and strong musky scent were thought to help guide the spirit of the dead home. The tradition of using marigolds for dia de los muertos date back dates back to pre Hispanic Aztec rituals. The Aztecs or the Nahua people believed that death was an inevitable part of life and that souls went to the land of the dead after death. Marigolds have also been used in local medicines for hundreds of years, including remedies for fevers, colds, and digestive problems. Understanding why it is we have the traditions we do helps us to connect us to our past and to our present. And that is really what this podcast is about. It's about being a bridge of understanding and discovery. So if that sounds like a podcast you want to continue to listen to, hit that subscribe button. Whether you're watching on YouTube with your eyes or you're listening on your favorite podcasting platform like Spotify or Apple or iHeartRadio, hit that subscribe button so you get notifications every week when our podcast drops. We have a very Halloweeny episode for you. Today. We're going to be talking about superstitions with Dr. McElroy. She has a Bachelor of Science in Horticulture and a Master of Science in Environmental Resources, and has been a professional editor and writer for 10 years. She is the author of several books, including the book we'll be discussing today, Superstitions, A Handbook of Folklore, myths and Legends from around the World. Thank you so much for joining us, Deborah.

Debra: 2:32

Thank you, Vanessa. Glad to be here.

Vanessa: 2:35

So I always like to start with asking a question about your journey. How did you get started on this journey of writing a book about superstitions?

Debra: 2:45

You know, it's funny in that I've always been interested in folklore and legends and that kind of thing, but I was actually, at the time I was writing reference books. So I was writing things like books of symbols and signs of the world and silly things like that. And it was really just taking a lot out of me because of the amount of research and stuff that you have to do for reference books. It's just very intense. But My editor came to me after I'd written a couple of these, and he said, hey, we really want you to do a book on superstitions. And the first thing that went through my mind was, no way, I can't do it. You know, I was just getting the finishing touches up on the big signs and symbols book that I was writing for them. And I'm like, I can't, you know, I'm sorry, I can't. I need a break. And he cajoled me. I'm going to say that in a kind way, he cajoled me. And they made a good offer. And I actually, I fell for the subject matter, really, otherwise I would have stuck to my guns and told him no. But I was intrigued by, okay, what do superstitions look like around the world? And I was left by them to craft this book in whatever manner I saw fit. So I decided that because I had a really broad interest in worldwide superstitions and traditions, that's how I would set the book up. I would do it by nations, by essentially by continents, because there was too many nations of the world. You know, I couldn't break it down into just the United States or just Britain and that kind of thing and have a book under 1,000 pages, you know, So I stuck to continents and then I cherry picked just basically what I could find and what I was interested in. So the book may not necessarily have other people's ideas of the most critical, you know, or the most crucial samples of superstitions in particular places, but it was what I thought was really interesting.

Vanessa: 5:18

So it has what you had access.

Debra: 5:19

To, exactly what I could find. Because this was right before COVID hit, of course, that I was writing this book. And so a lot of my ability to go out and do research was pretty much shut down. So there was a lot of online stuff. There were phone calls that were made, there were TV shows that were watched. There were, you know, that sort of recorded media that was available to me. But I wanted the book to have a tone that was lighter, particularly given that I had just written this monster of a reference book. I wanted this book. It's 192 pages, so it's not super long, but it has just. It's the kind of light, happy thing that you could. You could pick one little paragraph out of it and drop it at a cocktail party, you know, and say, hey, did you know that in Japan people think that electric fans are bad luck, you know, or that kind of thing.

Vanessa: 6:28

Right.

Debra: 6:29

Things that are just fun, that Made people think of something other than what was going on in the world, you know.

Vanessa: 6:37

Yeah, I would imagine that doing that type of research would be difficult, especially during the time of COVID But in general, you know, the language barriers as well is a trial because there are some countries in Africa that have English as its primary language, but then there are lots of other places that don't speak English. So are you able. Were you able to at all, like, get into those types of research, or did you primarily focus on places that had some English sources or English as its roots?

Debra: 7:14

Because of the way that Covid was affecting us all, it was pretty much impossible for me to do research with groups that didn't speak English. My foreign language ability is practically zero. You know, I have. I can say. I can say, you know, I'd like a beer, please, in Spanish. But, you know, obviously that's not the kind of foreign language that needs English help. There are others that I don't speak, and I had no access to people who did, you know. So the book is exclusively based on English representations of what might be going on and what is going on in other countries. That said, a majority of the countries of the world now have English as at least one of their major languages. You know, it may not be the official language of the country, but people there speak it to a certain extent. That's just the way it is, you know, So I would say I didn't really have a lot of trouble language wise. That wasn't where the barriers were. The barriers were. There were some behavioral barriers, and then there were the ability, just the ability to go out and meet people. Our lack of ability to do that.

Vanessa: 8:41

Yeah, absolutely. So what country or continent did you find most interesting when you were researching?

Debra: 8:49

Well, I don't know if you'll find this surprising or not, but actually it turned out to be Russia. And I don't have any Russian family members or anything like that. But for me, as a military kid growing up during the Cold War, Russia was, you know, this empty spot, this big mystery. And there was kind of a bit of a threat, you know, an unknown threat, especially as a military child, you know, what, are we going to be going to war with these people at any time? And without getting overtly political, it was just a big unknown for me and for my generation growing up. And what we knew was pretty much only propaganda from both sides, from their side and from our side. So as I started getting into the research, I discovered that what used to be the USSR and is now Russia has an extremely Rich background and historical folklore, tradition. There's a lot of different characters, There are different creatures. It's very colorful in a physical sense and an emotional sense. There's a lot of meaning attached to the stories and what they mean. It's very earth based and that this. So that leads most of their folklore to be pagan, although there is, you know, there's some that has gone on since then that's true in almost all Christian countries, at least, you know, in the US no exception. That the folklore that is pre Christian is just really interesting to me personally. You know, not that anybody may care, but I was raised Catholic, so I have nothing against religion. You know, I don't have an ax to grind or anything like that. I just seem to find that things that were pushed aside to make room for a Christian tradition were unique in Russia. Not that the same didn't happen elsewhere, but just some of the creatures. And I keep saying creatures because they have a number of unique cryptozoological type creatures and spirits and fairies and household brownies and all different kinds of little things that live with you and help you on a daily basis if you're culturally Russian. So I just thought it was fascinating. I really did. There's a series of books I think they're in. The woman's name is I'm gonna screw it up. Catherine. It might be Catherine Ahern.

Vanessa: 12:05

Oh. And there. I think I just read those.

Debra: 12:09

All three of them take place in Russia, and the main character is a Russian witch, and she interacts with all these little creatures of the forest and of the household spirits and all of these things. And that particular series is a perfect illustration of the kind of cultural folklore and heritage that goes on in Russia that they had to draw from. I just thought it was wonderful.

Vanessa: 12:37

The series is called the Winter Night Trilogy. Is that the one you're talking about with Katherine Arden?

Debra: 12:43

That's it. That's it. Thank you for looking that up.

Vanessa: 12:47

I just finished that series and it's beautifully written. So I highly recommend anyone who is interested in Russian folklore at all to read it. The first book, if you're looking, if you're interested, is the Bear and the Nightingale. But it's a lovely series. It is, yeah.

Debra: 13:05

Yeah. It made a huge impression on me and I read it over the course of writing my book. So I read one before and one during and one after, you know, as time allowed. But what she did, some of the things that went on in her book is that she would raise a question for me, you know, not that. Not that I was that I disagreed with her. I just thought, ooh, what's. I need to know more.

Vanessa: 13:33

Yeah.

Debra: 13:34

And so then I would run to the research to see, okay, tell me more about the domovoi. Tell me more about the Ryzalka. You know, tell me more about these different creatures and these different beings and what they mean in Russian folklore. And it was all just marvelous. It was just wonderful.

Vanessa: 13:53

So tell us a little bit about who this. Your book. The handbook, Superstitions Handbook, is intended for who's the target audience? I'm imagining someone who's, like, traveling around and, like, looking up superstitions while they're in, like, a specific area. But who in your mind is reading this?

Debra: 14:15

I don't see it as a travel book specifically because what it has on each characters in each country, due to space, is rather limited. So I think that people who are using travelogues are going to want a book that gives them more for what they have to carry. This book has some little illustrations in it. It's got page borders, it's got breaks. It's more about beauty and aesthetic than it is about just an info dump. Right. So I would say that the reader for this book is someone who has an interest in folklore, but they don't know what they want. They haven't been exposed to very much. So they kind of want like an appetizer, you know, for folklore. And before they sit down to eat this smorgasbord, you know, let's see what's out there. Here's a little bit about Russia. Here's a little bit about Africa. Here's a little bit about the Middle East. You know, all these different divisions and continents that I was able to squeeze in there. There's a little bit enough to make somebody decide, oh, I want to do more like I did on the Russian dive. You know, there are plenty of other materials in there if you're a fan of Asia, if you're a fan of Australia, you know, talk about some place that's remote, that most of us have no idea what that's like. There's stuff in there from Australia and the Pacific Islands. So it's. I definitely think of it more as a tasting plate than I do a reference book.

Vanessa: 16:16

And I love the illustrations. There's an illustration before each continent. What were those? Were they specifically for those continents for us? Can you talk to us a little about those?

Debra: 16:32

The book was absolutely stunningly designed by Quarto Publishing, who's my publisher. And I can't say enough good things about Them because they just do a beautiful job. I want to carry this book around and show it to people just because it's beautiful, you know, it is.

Vanessa: 16:51

I love the colors as well.

Debra: 16:53

The color and the gold foil on the COVID and as you mentioned, the illustrations that every different section has a major illustration, and then throughout there are minor illustrations to go with some of the goddesses or some of the monsters or some of different folklore creatures or little like just page decorations and things. So it really is a giftable item. It's a book that I think anyone would be proud to own. You know, it's not going to wind up hidden on a shelf. It's going to be out on the coffee table, right, with your other coffee table books probably on top, because it's a smaller size.

Vanessa: 17:39

Now, when you were writing this book, did you get a sense of where superstitions originate from? Like, how do places that have a strong superstitious tradition, where are all these superstitions coming from?

Debra: 17:59

Well, in general, superstitions arise as a result of humanity's need to control our environment, right? I mean, the farther back you go, the more likely it is that people in general felt like they lived in a world of chaos. You know, they never knew what was coming. They never knew where it was coming from. You know, is, are there gods up there hurling boulders on us, or are there creatures underground that are trying to, you know, upset us or what's happening? And so originally, starting back, those superstitions, at least in their most basic sense, you know, like, don't whistle in the dark, you know, the basic kind of thing was cautionary, right? They were like, if you don't want to get eaten by lions, don't do this, right? And so what starts out as a cautionary admonition becomes a superstition over time, particularly as it becomes less likely you'll be eaten by lions, right? But the tradition, the admonition stays with us. And it's just one of those things that our brains as humans are set up to hold onto negative information. And I mean, you can go into an entire psychological pitch on why that's the case. But basically, negative information helps us as a species more than positive information does. So our brain holds onto those things and it says, oh, I know that eating, getting eaten by lions is bad. This guy says he can help me not get eaten by lions. I'm going to listen to him, right? And so that's why those admonitions stay with us, even though the reason isn't necessary anymore. You know, don't spill the salt. Well, that's an admonition against wasting what was an incredibly precious resource at one point. And now, you know, it's 50 cents a pound in the. In the grocery store. So the admonition doesn't matter, but the caution is still there. It's just. It was. It's just fascinating, you know, the way our human minds work.

Vanessa: 20:42

And you see superstitions a lot of times in sports as well. Right, but is that. Is that something you looked at all?

Debra: 20:51

Actually, I didn't look at it, but what you said is absolutely right. There are particular groups, athletes are one of them, that are more superstitious than the general public. Off the top of my head, I would say that any kind of performer, if you're talking about actors, if you're talking about dancers, musicians, and athletes, all. They all, to a certain extent, feel like there's an element of the unknown in their performance. Call it luck, call it providence, call it divine intervention, you know, whatever you want to call it. They don't always know exactly why they turn in a great performance. You know, they control as much as they can, whether that means, last time I was great, I wore red socks. You know, I'm gonna wear red socks for the rest of my life, then that's one way to control it. But I don't feel they necessarily believe that it's the Red Sox, you know, I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say. It's like. It's like. Because there's that undefinable element to an art performance, to a performance of any kind, they're trying to nail down as many different things as they can in the hopes that whatever they put their thumb on will be the magic thing that will make them succeed again this time.

Vanessa: 22:42

Like trying to replicate what they did the last time they were successful.

Debra: 22:48

In.

Vanessa: 22:48

As many elements as possible.

Debra: 22:50

Yes, exactly. Yes. Because, you know, even though. Even if they do replicate all the ones that they think they got, they may not have that performance again. And we want to think that we can control every single element of our performance, whether it's our body, our car, our dance slippers, our football, whatever it is, if we can control, we should be able to control, you know, it's my body. I should be able to control the way it performs, like a machine every time. But, of course, we're not machines.

Vanessa: 23:33

Right?

Debra: 23:34

And so the problem is, it's an illusion. The idea that they can control it is an illusion. So we would be happier. They would be happier. Perhaps if they accepted the fact that if you do the same thing over and over again, you're not necessarily going to get the same result. Yeah, and it's just one of those things.

Vanessa: 24:02

Did you get a sense of where people are most superstitious? You mentioned that you see that there's a lot of superstition in performers, but what about in like in the scope of the world? Is it more rural, is it more religious, is it more what do you, is there a pattern?

Debra: 24:25

There doesn't really seem to be a pattern. I mean you can find groups that are living urban lives and that are living rural lives that are every bit of superstition. That said, there are certainly groups around the world who are more superstitious than others. Google has told me that Nigeria happens to be the most superstitious country in the world. Now the reasons for that, there are a lot of them and I don't know them all, but I do know a couple and one of them is population density. And you will see that same thing in other high density populations. You will see a lean toward superstitiousness. So if you think about places like Brazil, Japan, parts of China, even parts of the US high density cities, the more people you cram into a smaller area, the more we literally and figuratively rub up against each other, the more anxious we become. Right. And what is superstition about? Superstition is about control. So if you have a lot of people who are anxious all the time and there's very little that can be done about it, then all of these ideas will start appearing in society. The ideas like don't look somebody in the eye on a Tuesday or a bird will poop on your head or that was that. I just made that up. That's not anybody's, that's not anybody's superstition. So don't get upset. But it's that kind of thing that the more extreme the situation for people, the more extreme the superstition that will be created as a result. So I think one of the reasons Nigeria is very superstitious is because population density, cultural factors and a lower income on a worldwide basis, you know, what am I trying to say? Their standard of living is what I'm trying to say. Standard of living. Right. So and that's nothing against whatever their cultural biases are or my cultural biases are any populations that are in that same situation. Again, I point out Japan, I point out South America. You're going to experience that kind of elevated rise in superstitious exposition. You know, and so. And I think if you look carefully, I think you will find what's happening in the US Is very much like the rise of superstition in places that aren't as politically loaded as we are right now.

Vanessa: 28:09

What do you mean?

Debra: 28:12

What I mean.

Vanessa: 28:13

Can you give us an example?

Debra: 28:16

Take a look at conspiracy theory.

Vanessa: 28:20

Oh.

Debra: 28:22

I'm going to be general. If you look at the tenets of a lot of conspiracy theories in general, you will see that there is a lot of elements of urban legend. There's a lot of elements of superstition and conspiracy and that kind of thing. Like, they're out to get us. You start with something basic as that. And immediately people want control. Right. They need to control their anxiety. Oh, my God, they're out to get us. What can I do, you know? Oh, oh, I can make sure that I don't have a black cat, you know, or I can make sure that I don't go to the grocery store on Thursday or whatever. You know, it's like a. Like the foundation is being laid for what could be a real big change in how we are as a culture.

Vanessa: 29:35

So let's get into your book. Now, you laid it out by continents.

Debra: 29:40

Yeah.

Vanessa: 29:40

And you start off with Africa. Is there a reason you start off with Africa, or is it. It wasn't alphabetical, right?

Debra: 29:46

It was alphabetical.

Vanessa: 29:47

It was. Okay.

Debra: 29:49

Yeah. Yeah. I think it goes Africa, Asia, and Australia.

Vanessa: 29:53

Okay, well, I think I saw all the Middle east in there, but Middle east is.

Debra: 29:56

I guess it's part of Africa.

Vanessa: 29:58

Yes. Okay.

Debra: 30:00

Yeah. The publisher, like, did the big group breakdown the way I did, and then since they didn't have room for everything, they would, like, take out subsets. So Egypt is obviously one of those subsets that everyone's going to want to see in a book like this. So that came out as its own subset. The Middle east came out as its own subset. And you'll find that in some of the other groups also.

Vanessa: 30:29

And I noticed that Antarctica is not there, and I realized that nobody actually lives there except for scientists. But I would be curious if scientists in Antarctica have some superstitions because, you know, it's so remote and it seems like such a crazy place to live.

Debra: 30:47

It does seem like a crazy place to live. And it's potentially possible they could. On the other hand, based on the criteria that I set forth, you know, crowded, moderate to low income, lowered standard of living, and the. I forget what this other one was. But since nobody lives in Antarctica, I don't think they're in danger.

Vanessa: 31:17

Yes.

Debra: 31:18

Yeah. I mean, the only thing is the scientists are all locked into, so there could be some anxiety there.

Vanessa: 31:26

Absolutely. And I think, you know, like, they have limited resources. Like, there's maybe, like, a doctor or two. And so if, like, the doctor gets hurt, then I remember seeing some sort of show where someone had to perform surgery on themselves because the doctor was passed out or something and they were in dire straits. So I can imagine that there would be situations where it would be very stressful.

Debra: 31:47

I'm sure. I'm sure it could be stressful. And, you know, because it is the unknown to a great extent. Your mind can go anywhere and create anything as far as what a threat might be. So certainly there is going to be wild creatures in the snow, there's going to be potential earthquakes and snowfalls, and the ground is going to crack open and swallow the whole research facility. I mean, I'd be out of my mind in a place like that because I just have way too many things going on in my head.

Vanessa: 32:31

Well, I don't like the cold, so I don't think I would handle it very well.

Debra: 32:36

Yeah, right there with you. Yeah.

Vanessa: 32:39

Okay, so you start with Africa, and you write in the start that Africa remains one of the most mysterious and unknown world to most Westerners. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Debra: 32:51

Yeah. Actually, the reason why it's that mysterious is kind of obvious when you think about it, but I don't think it's obvious otherwise. It's that mysterious because it is the second largest land mass on the entire planet. So you have. I mean, that continent is three times the size of the United States. So if anybody wants to see what Africa really looks like, look at a globe. Because on maps it doesn't show right. The way the scale is on a map that South America and North America look a lot bigger than they actually are. So on a globe, though, that whole all that land mass will spread out, and you'll just be floored at how enormous Africa is.

Vanessa: 33:52

Wow.

Debra: 33:55

So, yeah, it is, again, the unknown. Just as were joking about Antarctica, it is truly the unknown. There are still parts of Africa that have never been explored. Now, in modern times, that seems hard to believe, but it's actually true. It's not to the extent that it was, say, 100 years ago, but there's still a lot of places where people have never been, or if they have been, they're still there and we don't know about them.

Vanessa: 34:39

Like deep in the jungles where people just haven't tried to even get to.

Debra: 34:43

Yeah, you know, the impassable places, the inaccessible because they're too steep places. The places where it's all rocks and no plants and nobody can scramble up these, you know, the side of Mount Kilimanjaro. Although people have been up Mount Kilimanjaro, but I use that metaphorically, you know, it's just, it's honestly, it's mind boggling to me. How much is there? And the other thing is that, yes, there are over a billion people in Africa, but compared to the size of that continent, it's a drop. I mean, there are like 4 billion, something like that in China, and it's less than half the size of Africa. So you've got very few people, relatively spread out over an enormous area. Yeah, so empty space, you know, that's why it's so mysterious. It's empty space. You have clusters of well developed, highly functional, highly financially oriented cities and countries. And then you have vast expanses with nothing. So I think it's kind of cool, but it's kind of scary too.

Vanessa: 36:18

And is that what really makes it unique? What would you say makes Africa special and unique in terms of its, I guess, folklore and its, you know, I.

Debra: 36:30

Think in terms of his folklore and its fables and that sort of thing, it's the number of different civilizations that are there. I mean, Africa is incredibly ancient. Right. I mean, Egypt was a high society when the rest of the planet was dust. There was nothing. And so I think over a millennia, whether you go back to the early city states, Urdu and Ur, and some of those other cities, and then through the high dynasties of Egypt and through to where they are now, there's just been so much happening on a civilization level. You know, there were vast kingdoms. There were huge areas that nothing but animals roamed. You know, there were places where civilization was old and there were places where people didn't know there were civilization. There were kingdoms in the southern part of Africa, dozens of rich kingdoms ruled by people that were completely their own bosses, I guess, for lack of a better word. Kings, queens, great dynasties, great civilizations. And the most remarkable thing to me is that a lot of those are still around. Right. I mean, you know, Egypt is still Egypt. You know, they have differences, obviously. They've got cars and they've got multilevel apartment buildings and whatnot. But the Nile still floods, you know, and people still drive cattle through the streets. And it's just so much of it, of what was old is still around and is still old, so. And yet it sits side by side with things that are new and shiny and rich and it's. I can't say enough about it, really. It's just amazing.

Vanessa: 39:03

And so in your book, the way you structure each chapter is you look at mythical monsters and then you look at some of the deities, like the gods and goddesses, and then you look at the superstitions. So just depending on how much time we have, we're going to. I'm just going to ask you to kind of highlight a little about, you know, each section if something stuck out to you. So let's start with mythical monsters. Is there any. Were there any monsters that you particularly found interesting.

Debra: 39:38

For Africa? Mm, yeah, there's one I'm gonna see. I'm trying to find my note here. Oh, well, the best known African God. Or we're talking monsters? Sorry, I'm talking.

Vanessa: 39:54

It doesn't matter. You can go with God.

Debra: 39:58

There's one called Mao. Mao Mam. Lombo. Mamlambo. I'm sorry, I can't read my own handwriting. Mamlambo. It's crocodile. Like, it's got like the head of a horse and the body of a croc and the neck of a swan. And a lot of these monsters from many cultures tend to be chimeras, right? Greek has the same thing. They've got a lot of manticores and pegasus and all these things that are morphed one between the other kind of thing. So it's. No, not that unusual to find thing that has the head of a chicken and the tail of a dog and this kind of thing. It's practically more. If it were just an elephant or just a giraffe, it would be less likely to be a great monster. But the thing about MAUt. MAU. MAU MAU, Yeah. Anyway, the thing about it is that its great claim to fame is coming up and snatching people off the riverbank. Okay, that seems like a pretty good admonition to anybody that lives an urban life or a rural life in Africa. Watch out for crocodiles in the river. But the thing about this particular one, and I'm using its name specifically because that's what's important, is that in 1990 there was an incident with a mining company where they were digging for. I forget what. They mine an awful lot of things in Africa, but several employees started disappearing and so nobody could figure out why. Right? The local police force, the mining inspectors, nobody could figure out what was happening to these people. And it kept happening for like I don't know, 8 or 10, 12 days. This kept happening. And finally they found the bodies of the people who had been taken, like upriver several miles or something. And they had figured, the police figured that a crocodile had taken them, Right. Well, of course, the locals believe that Mamalamo had taken him. And so they had one of their local priests do a ritual to get rid of Mama Lombo. And after that ritual was performed, the killing stopped. So that is a good use of urban legends, urban fables. Right. Because here you've got a real incident with real physical evidence linked to a myth or a mythical monster, if you will. Mm, fabulous. Love it.

Vanessa: 43:09

And then I'm assuming there's a superstition that's tied in with that, with the monster. Is there like a way to avoid that particular monster or is it just don't go near that water?

Debra: 43:24

It's not my. In my notes if you can avoid Mama Lombo specifically. But the admonition against, you know, getting too close to the edge of the river, particularly at night, could be generalized. They do have a tradition about whistling in the dark, and that is supposedly, is if you whistle in the dark, you invite evil spirits to come after you at night. So you could also kind of link that to your stay away from the riverbanks at night thing and just don't go out at night. Just don't do it.

Vanessa: 44:09

And don't taunt.

Debra: 44:12

No Taunting the evil crocodiles.

Vanessa: 44:15

Yes, well, I can't whistle, so I guess no evil spirits are going to come after me if I walk at night.

Debra: 44:22

Well, that's good, right? That's for.

Vanessa: 44:26

Any other superstitions that you found particularly interesting in Africa?

Debra: 44:30

Well, there are a large number of them, particularly coming out of Nigeria, as it happens, that are about traveling or taking journeys.

Vanessa: 44:40

Okay.

Debra: 44:42

Most of them involve walking by foot. And I don't know whether that is currently how most people in Nigeria travel or whether that's something from the past. But the superstitions involve things like if you are walking and you bump your leg on a log, you have to turn around and go home because it's bad luck. If you're walking and you trip over a rock and you fall down, you know, you have to turn around and go home and take a bath and then you can start your journey again. You know, they got half a dozen or more of these kind of travel linked superstitions, and I don't have an explanation for it, particularly since they're foot travel, which is generally safe. I mean, unless you're out at night whistling for lions or something and they're coming after you. But I don't know why they have so many. It's just kind of fascinating that they do.

Vanessa: 45:48

Yeah. Okay, so you talked about Middle east as obviously Egypt is part of Is. Are you considering Egypt as part of the Middle East?

Debra: 45:59

Yeah, I am. I am. The only thing about Egypt is that a lot of what we read about Egypt in books doesn't depict what's happened in Egypt currently. Right. Because most of them aren't following the old gods, just like in Greece. Most of them aren't following Zeus and Hera, you know, they are following modern Greek Orthodox Church, in that case in Nigeria, it's whatever church the Nigerians have. I'm sorry, I don't know what church the Nigerians have. But regardless, in Egypt, I think, at least, I think in the US Particularly, there's this perception that modern Egypt looks exactly like old Egypt.

Vanessa: 46:51

Right.

Debra: 46:52

And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't look the same. It doesn't function the same. Nobody. They use the same language, but they don't use hieroglyphs. They have. Arabic is their script, you know, So I just. I have some reservation about putting forth Egyptian lore, if you will, as though it were still current, you know, So.

Vanessa: 47:28

A lot of this still, a lot of the superstitions or lore you found might or might not still be active for Egypt.

Debra: 47:37

That is definitely the case. And that's also why I didn't put Greek and Roman gods in this book at all. Because A, everybody studies them in junior high and, you know, I think everybody knows enough about the Greek and Roman gods that we didn't need anymore. But I did put Egypt in because, A, it's fascinating and B, I think that it's expected. But I put it in there with the caveat that this is historical and not necessarily current Egypt because even our movies, you know, show people walking around in fezzes and speaking with accents, you know, and think of any mummy movie you've seen in the last 20 years, they all look like that. They all look like they were cut in the 1920s or the 1820s or anything old. But anyway, I digress.

Vanessa: 48:50

So give us a couple superstitions from Egypt then, that are probably historical.

Debra: 49:01

There's one concerning the Nile, which I'm very sure is historical because obviously the Nile has been the center of Egyptian agriculture for thousands of years. So their lives were literally linked to its ebbs and flows. So there were a lot of rituals that were attached to making sure that the Nile did what it was supposed to do every year. The high priests would do things. There were sacrifices, there were competitions, like there might between athletes and things like that. It was a very festive occasion to make sure that everything was right for the Nile to continue to flood its banks and replenish the earth. Connected to that are things like what you have to do on a particular day. One of them was their names of days of the week aren't the same as ours, but on the first day of the week, you would. You would have to get up and before the sunrise and make sure you sang the sun up. And then the second day of the week, you would get up with the sunrise, and then you would take a ritual bath, and then you would get dressed and you would do your daily activities. And the third day, you know, would have its rituals and that sort of thing. So those are technically superstitions, but for them at the time, they were also religious practices. Right, so. And that's the case of any mythology. Right. Mythology, by definition, is attached to religion, whether that's in the past or in the present. And that's another reason why I think I left Greek and Roman mythology out is because I think we have lost sight of the fact that this used to be a civilization's real religion. Right. Toga parties are not. You know, they're just particularly. If you're going to talk about this current atmosphere of political correctness, let's not put somebody's religion, whether it's historical or whether it's current, in a situation where it looks like it might being made fun of or pulled apart in a way that is not respectful. Does that make sense?

Vanessa: 51:55

Yeah. One of the things that you mentioned was the Epic of Gilgamesh, a very crucial book or text that is from the Middle East. Can you just give us a little idea about what that is?

Debra: 52:13

Yes. And that's actually a fascinating book. Technically, it's an epic poem, like Beowulf. And like Beowulf, it tells a number of stories. I think Beowulf tells three or four different stories, but there are more than that in Gilgamesh. And one of the stories is Gilgamesh slaying a monster that had been ransacking a village. That is essentially the story of Beowulf. Right. So Beowulf is taken from Gilgamesh, but most people don't know that. And Gilgamesh is so old. I mean, it's. It was old when the Egyptians started, so it has influenced almost every major literary work ever written. So you've got Beowulf was inspired by Gilgamesh. There's a story of a great war between two civilizations over a woman. Yeah, sounds like Troy to me. So there's that. Also in Gilgamesh is a recording of a worldwide flood. And so that obviously is our flood myth. Are I say I use the term flood myth because that's how mythologists use the term. To some people, obviously it is a historical fact. It really happened. And that's fine. I'm not making any judgment over whether that's true or not. In fact, I don't know whether that's true or not. What I do know is that almost every civilization on this earth has a flood mythology story. Even though our religions are very different, we all have this story about the earth being inundated. Now there have been some interesting speculations about where that came from. Some scientists want to call it race memory, which is a term that has become out of favor. But what they mean by race memory is genetic memory. It's memory that's handed down in the DNA of humanity. Now that's an interesting idea because who would think that any kind of event could be handed down in the DNA that would bring into question. Okay, is that why today's generation Gen Z are so depressed? Is their race memory 9, 11? It's an idea. Is that modern day proof of race memory or genetic memory? I don't know. Don't know. But it's cool.

Vanessa: 55:40

Yeah, it's definitely an interesting thought.

Debra: 55:43

Yeah.

Vanessa: 55:44

Okay, let's go to Asia. What? Give us a little background on what makes Asia distinct.

Debra: 55:53

Well, it's almost. I know I'm gonna offend somebody out there saying this and I don't mean to offend. It's almost like what's going on in Africa, the opposite is going on in Asia. In Africa, I was talking about how many different civilizations there were and how old their civilization is in Asia. Based on my research, what I have seen happening is that it's very similar civilizations happening over and over again. Like, you'll have the Chinese, you have the Koreans, you have the Nepalese and the Tibetans. Within each of those cultural groups, obviously there are big differences and they see themselves as different. I mean, ask Taiwan and China who's the same and who isn't. Right? But as an outsider with an outside viewpoint, what I can see is that I see almost one giant civilization with small differences versus in Africa, I see big civilizations with big differences spread over a big area. Right. I am. I love Asian culture. I love all Cultures. That's the truth. That's why when I wrote this book. But I am not an expert in Asian culture. So I admit that I'm running the risk of saying, you know, Chinese culture kind of looks like Korean culture, kind of looks like Japanese culture. But evidence supports me in that their written languages are very similar. Right. So they recently, and I'm going to say within the last five or six decades, they created a new writing called cjk, which literally stands for Chinese, Japanese, Korean. And what it does is that it takes the differences in the three written languages and essentially eliminates them, just throws them out the window. And they use this CJK so that they can all communicate effectively because the Alphabet is close enough that they can all make each other understood.

Vanessa: 59:05

Interesting.

Debra: 59:06

Yeah, it was very interesting. It was very interesting. So. And in fact, one of my reference book is a best seller in Korea, I think, probably because I talk about the CJK and some of those differences and similarities, and they appreciated not looking like the odd man out on that one.

Vanessa: 59:32

So can you give us a few examples of superstitions in Asia that you found interesting?

Debra: 59:40

There are some really interesting things. And so when you talk about Hindu superstitions, a lot of them have really practical reasons for being, which not a lot of some of the others, other continents, other cultures don't necessarily. One of the ones is about hanging a lemon. And the neat thing is that if you hang a lemon, according to the tradition, along with a chili pepper and a feather, I think it is then you won't get sick. Well, what has been discovered about that is because citrus fruits have very high vitamin C. So what they said is that they believe that this string that's been run through the lemon absorbs lemon juice and vitamin C and it runs up the string, and the insects that land on the string get poisoned by the vitamin C in the lemon juice, and that it actually kills them, which I. It took me a while to think about that, but I'm like, okay, that could happen.

Vanessa: 1:01:06

All right, so you said you're saying it's lemons and chili peppers. Is that what it is?

Debra: 1:01:12

They're combined lemon and chili pepper. Yeah. And of course, those two elements are in a lot of their cuisine.

Vanessa: 1:01:22

And they're supposed to prevent what, they.

Debra: 1:01:25

Keep people from getting sick, presumably, at least according to the dissection by getting rid of insect, you know.

Vanessa: 1:01:34

Well, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned that, because I remember at some point it was really popular to drink like a lemon juice, chili pepper, honey drink. And that was Intended to keep people from getting sick. It was something that you're supposed to drink every day. And I think some people were doing it in fasting or some people were doing maple syrup, I believe different variations of that. So that's interesting.

Debra: 1:02:04

Well, you know, it makes perfect sense based on what we think is going on with the stirring and the lemon juice. If you think that those three elements, the chili peppers, are going to be good for your heart and your arteries, the lemon juice, good for your sinuses, your head, your eyes, your. Anything else that needs vitamin C and then the sweetener just make it tolerable.

Vanessa: 1:02:37

Yes.

Debra: 1:02:38

Who wants to drink it otherwise?

Vanessa: 1:02:40

Right.

Debra: 1:02:42

Although there are people who argue about honey having its own health benefits.

Vanessa: 1:02:49

Right, Exactly.

Debra: 1:02:50

Yeah.

Vanessa: 1:02:51

I was going to say there's a lot of evidence to show that honey is used for a lot of remedies. Okay, so let's look at, we're running low on time, the Americas. So you look at both north and south separately. Can you just tell us, you know, a little bit from each one and maybe a superstition from each one?

Debra: 1:03:15

Well, yeah. South America has some interesting things going on because there was a fair amount of immigration from Europe into South America. They brought with them a lot of their prejudices, their biases, their superstitions, their everything else. So you will find things in South America that you will also find in Europe. For example, don't put your shoes on the table. Right. Which I don't know why that's a thing because I don't understand who would put your shoes on the table in the first place. But, but that is one that's very big in Russia and in Poland is to not do that. There's also one where you, if you're drinking with a party, you know, like a group of friends in a bar, when you're done, you put your bottles on the floor under the table.

Vanessa: 1:04:14

Huh.

Debra: 1:04:15

And the suspected reason for that is that back in the day when bar keeps, you know, we didn't really know how to run a tab the way we do now. They counted how many bottles you had to charge you how much for what you drank. Right. Well, people thought that maybe if you stuck the bottles under the table that the bartender wouldn't know how many for sure or would forget to check and charge you and you might skate on your bar tab. Yeah, I kind of like that one. You know, it starts out sounding sinister and then it cracks up instead and becomes funny.

Vanessa: 1:05:00

And then you include the Inuits with the Canadian culture just because of its Location. Geographical location.

Debra: 1:05:10

That's correct.

Vanessa: 1:05:12

Can you give us a little bit of a superstition about them and maybe historical.

Debra: 1:05:19

Yeah. Actually, the Inuit are considered first nations in Canada, so that's one of the biggest reasons that. And as you said, proximity. It was easier to put them up in Canada than it was in North America. And they don't belong with us anyway. Their cultural practices for their tribes are completely different than plains tribes and North American tribes. So. But one thing that they do have going on is that, of course, they hunt both land and sea animals, and most tribes don't. At least in most of North America, you're one or the other. So one of their admonitions is that you cannot wear the same clothes or use the same weapons to hunt sea animals versus land animals. You have to have separate ones for each. And a part of that is believed to be. It might be like if you're. If you kill a polar bear and then the polar bear smell is on your weapons, then you're going to scare away the seal, see?

Vanessa: 1:06:32

Yeah.

Debra: 1:06:34

And vice versa. If your seal smell is on your clothes and a polar bear gets wind of you could be the next lunch.

Vanessa: 1:06:44

Yeah.

Debra: 1:06:44

You know, so it makes sense. As superstitions sometimes do. It makes sense how they arose.

Vanessa: 1:06:54

Exactly. That's interesting. Okay, Europe. One of the things that you mentioned is that there's so much variety, but the original. The variety and originality has disappeared just because of the kind of melding, I guess, of the European nations into kind of a conglomerate. You want to talk to us a little bit about that?

Debra: 1:07:21

It hasn't happened in a totality. Right. Obviously, if you go to Hungary and then you go to Poland, you will find that the two of them still have their differences and they still have their individual cultures. I think what I meant was that because people travel across borders with such ease and they make their homes, you know, a Hungarian is perfectly welcome to make his home in England if he wants, you know, or wherever in Europe or in the Americas, because they travel and they bring their culture with them. Certainly you can use America as an example of how those cultures get blended. Right. Nothing is necessarily taken away from that man who happened to come from Poland, but he's going to gain things that he learns from American culture, and American culture will gain from him. Things he brings. For example, often food or ways of dress, you know, a hat he might wear, music he might like. That kind of thing makes its way into popular culture. I know I have lots of friends who came from other countries who I Can't wait to eat their mama's food. I have a friend whose mother is Chaldean, and she makes the best stuffed vegetables you ever want to taste in your life. And I can't wait to get to her food. Or my friend is from. I have a friend from Iran, and I have a friend from Australia. And they all have their expertise. You know, I don't agree with all of them. Like, most of what I see from Australia, I don't really want to eat. Don't ask me about Vegemite.

Vanessa: 1:09:17

Yeah, yeah.

Debra: 1:09:19

But, you know, but. But you can almost always find something that you like from different cultures. And that's what I meant by that, was that, yes, there is a certain amount of blending that goes on that doesn't mean a loss to either culture. Nothing is lost from the culture that gave, and nothing is lost from the culture that takes. You know. I think we all gain by this kind of mixing.

Vanessa: 1:09:48

Yeah. So can you give us a few highlights of some superstitions or folklore from these areas?

Debra: 1:09:56

There is a general superstition I think applies really well here because you were talking about blending. Throw a coin in a fountain. Many, many cultures have that superstition, partly due to travel, merchant travel, you know, from over eons of time, and partly due to movies we've watched or, you know, habits our families have or whatever that may be. But using that as an example, how many. I'm gonna. I'm gonna isolate it to India because I'm most familiar with it in that setting. In India, it's tradition to throw coins in the fountain for various reasons. You do it on to give the bride and the groom good luck. You do it to ensure a safe journey. You do it to have healthy cattle or whatever your thing is. It's very much a part of the culture india particularly. So in antiquity, a lot of coins were made of zinc and copper. We know now, based on modern food science, that zinc and copper are two very important nutrients for human beings to consume. By throwing those coins in that fountain, that water source then became laden with zinc and copper and other metals that were beneficial to the people who drank from the well.

Vanessa: 1:11:39

Yeah.

Debra: 1:11:40

It helped strengthen their immune systems. It helped keep the water clear because it killed microbes and algaes and different insects in the water. I mean, it had a number of benefits, and it was all. It was based on something that people didn't even notice immediately.

Vanessa: 1:12:05

Yeah, Right.

Debra: 1:12:07

It's like somewhere, over time, people came to realize that it really was. You did have good fortune when you Threw money in the water. You may not know why back then, but you knew that it. You just felt better, things went better for you. You know, things were. It was all good.

Vanessa: 1:12:27

And I'd imagine the reverse is true if you take money from the fountain.

Debra: 1:12:33

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, in antiquity, you could get your hands cut off for doing that.

Vanessa: 1:12:40

Wow.

Debra: 1:12:41

Now, obviously, we wouldn't do that nowadays, but in fact, hotels pay some guy to go in there and take all the money out of the fountain, you know, so that people can keep throwing money into it. But, yeah, I mean, you talk about a serious. Something that would make you not want to do something would be, yeah, touch those coins and lose your hand.

Vanessa: 1:13:12

Yeah. All right, so our last continent is Australia. Oceania, I guess some people call it Oceania, and some people call it Australia. Can you give us a superstition or highlight a folklore element from Australia?

Debra: 1:13:31

Australia. Oceania is actually the term for all of the islands and archipelagos that are around Australia, like New Zealand, Tasmania, you know, Fiji, all of those kind of thing, Right. It's those isolated islands and whatnot that don't have a country to call home of their own, right? So if Moana had a country, it would be Oceania. So, yeah, Australia itself isn't Oceania, but there are some interesting things going on in Australia. And one of them is, you may or not know, may or may not know that there are a number of reptiles in Australia. It's kind of just crawling, pardon the pun, with them. And in particular, one of the ones is a gecko. Now, we all know the geico gecko, and so he's not a big mystery to most of us here in this country, at least. But you cannot kill a gecko in Australia or india, for that matter, either. But it's because it's terrible luck. It's bad luck. And the main reason, of course, now people won't say it's bad luck because most people don't know why it's bad luck, but it's bad luck because geckos eat a lot of insects, including a lot of them that are very destructive, a lot of them that are bad, you know, like mosquitoes that make people ill. They potentially have. Lay, you know, all kinds of eggs and do destructive things. And they were. They took care of the larvae of the. Whatever ate the silkworms. I apologize, I don't remember what ate the silkworms in Australia, but they were having a big problem with the decimation of the silkworms that made the silk crop. And finally they were able to get that under control with geckos, I need geckos.

Vanessa: 1:15:52

My backyard is crawling with mosquitoes.

Debra: 1:15:55

You know, most good reptile stores nowadays sell them. They're kind of cute with their little round feet and the five toes and all that. But something you may or may not know on a closing note is that geckos do not have eyelids. Their eyeballs stay open all the time, so they lick their eyeballs to keep them clean and moist. So that's why you see them going ma mouth.

Vanessa: 1:16:32

And was there a superstition with that?

Debra: 1:16:38

Didn't I say don't kill a gecko?

Vanessa: 1:16:40

Oh, don't kill a gecko. That's right. That was at the very beginning.

Debra: 1:16:43

I got lost. I got lost in the part.

Vanessa: 1:16:47

I got lost in imagining my backyard mosquito free with geckos running around.

Debra: 1:16:53

And then I threw you with the eyeball looking thing.

Vanessa: 1:16:55

Yes, yes. Well, that's a perfect way to end. So tell us any lasting thoughts, anything that you feel like we didn't touch on.

Debra: 1:17:07

Oh, well, honestly, through no fault of yours, there's a lot that we could have covered if I'd have been a little bit better organized. But I think the most important thing is that this book is a great place to start if you don't know where to start. But there are tons of sources out there of places you can go in depth. I'm actually working on a part two to this book that won't be out until sometime next year. But since this covers the major continents and land masses of the world, you're in pretty good shape with this book and I hope that some of you enjoy it.

Vanessa: 1:17:49

And what will book two, Will it just be like a continuation of these same places or will you add in different countries? What's the book two intended to do?

Debra: 1:17:59

Well, what's happening in book two is that it's going to lean more into superstition and less into like fables and monsters and stuff. And it's going to be arranged such that it's going to be around like the subject of the superstition. For example, cats. You know, superstitions about cats or superstitions about money or superstitions about, you know, rain or whatever. So it'll be arranged differently and not, you know, broken down into cultural distinctions like this one.

Vanessa: 1:18:36

Well, I'm definitely looking forward to that because this was such a fascinating read and I definitely recommend anyone who's interested in this subject matter. Take a look. She has it. It's an ebook as well as a physical book, but it is very beautifully designed. So like she said, it would be a great coffee table edition for anyone, hint. For Christmas, right?

Debra: 1:19:01

Right. Absolutely. And Amazon has it on sale right now.

Vanessa: 1:19:05

Perfect. Well, thank you, Deborah for joining us today.

Debra: 1:19:11

Thank you, Vanessa. I really like being here.

Vanessa: 1:19:14

And thank you folksy folks for joining us on this superstitious journey. What are your funny superstitions? Everything that all the links. I think we will just link her book on our website, fabricoffolklore.com and I would encourage everyone to subscribe and share. Send it to your friend who likes Serena Williams, wears the same pair of socks throughout an entire tournament. For good luck, follow us on social media. We're on Facebook and Instagram and on X previously Twitter. Thanks for unraveling the mysteries of folklore on Fabric of Folklore. Once again. I'm Vanessa Y. Rogers and until next time, keep the folk alive.