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Fabric of Folklore
Folktales can be strange, mystical, macabre and intriguing. Join us as we explore the stories, culture and people behind the folklore. We go beyond retelling the legends, myths and fairy tales of old. We look at the story behind the lore, behind the songs and traditions to understand more about what they mean, and their importance. These stories, many originating as oral histories, inform us of what it means to be human; what it means to be an integral part of this Earth. Stories of magic and wonder bind us. They connect us through invisible strands, like the gossamer fibers of a spiders web. Folktales have the power to demonstrate how, although we live in drastically different locals, our hearts and minds beat as one human race. We are weaving the fabrics of our past and present stories, to help us better understand ourselves and to awaken us to a more compassionate and caring world community. As we explore the meaning of existence through folklore we hope to inspire future generations to lead with love and understanding.
Fabric of Folklore
Ep 71: The Liminal World of Fairies: History, Myth, and Modern Tales with Ivy Lewis
How have fairies evolved in their representations from pre-Christian times to the modern day? In Episode 71, Ivy Lewis—veteran, war artist, novelist, and folklore specialist—explores the roles of fairies across cultures, their liminal existence, and their modern portrayals in contemporary literature. We also discuss demonic possession and how medieval Christian views of the afterlife have shaped modern interpretations of fairies. Additionally, we examine the connection between the natural world and fairy tales, as well as Ivy’s debut novel, Ferrishyn, a reimagined folklore romance. Don't miss this fascinating episode!
Find Ivy's books here: www.ivylewisauthor.co.uk
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Fabric of Folklore website
Welcome folksy folks. Welcome to Fabric of Folklore. I am Vanessa Y. Rogers, your hostess of the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of folklore. Our show is all about origins. We're pulling on threads that lead us back as far back as that thread will take us. Whether that thread is an urban legend and mythological story or a superstition, we want to understand its history and its context. One of the previous episodes, our guest Dr. Miguel Roy talked about superstitions and that was episode 65. One of the superstitions was not to whistle at night in Africa, so as not to attract. Later, I came across another superstition about whistling in Australia, only specifically in a graveyard. So a ghost wouldn't follow you home. Sailors also have a superstition about whistling. They believe that whistling changes the wind and they, sailors often worked in theaters because they were good at knots and ropes and rigging. And so actors began discouraging the act of whistling because they believed it was bad luck. In Ukraine if if you whistle they believe you, you go broke. I had a hard time pinpointing any sort of reason except that whistling seemed to be universally bad Luck globally. And I love to say this show is about building bridges, but it's also about connecting dots to see where those dots lead you. And on this folklore podcast, I'm always amazed at the wisdom with which my guests bring, and you will be too. So make sure you're hitting that subscribe button, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcasting platform, like Apple or Spotify or iHeartRadio, whatever it is you listen to. So you get notifications on a weekly basis. When our podcast drops, we have a fantastic show for you today. You're going to love this one. Ivy Lewis is our guest. She's an RAF veteran, which stands for Royal Air Force. She's a war artist. Her war collection is held in the Royal Air Force Museum. She specialized in folklore and religion in the Middle Ages and her undergraduate and her postgraduate degree. She is the author of a novella, and Where Will You Go, Dedian? Dedian. Dedian, right?
Ivy Lewis:Gone Dedian.
Vanessa Rogers:And as well as her debut novel, Ferishen, set to release at the end of November 2024, it's romance set in a futuristic war zone, blending elements of sci fi and folklore into what she's calling fey fee. Our show today will be about connecting lots of dots between place lore, how fairies are represented through the lens of medieval characters. Christian Linds and what that means for modern representation in Fae literature today. We'll be talking about the intersection between the natural world and the fairy tales, as well as Ivy's books and how she reimagined folklore in her upcoming works. So thank you so much for joining us, Ivy. Hi, thank you for having me. So let's get into Your journey about being a novelist. How did that occur?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, interesting question. So, probably like lots of people who write books, I've been writing for a long, long time. So I've been writing since I was about, um, 15, 16. So that's a good 20 odd years now. Um, I've always written just for fun, just for the pure enjoyment of it, um, as a lot of us do. Um, and the, the book Ferrishin, which is out, um, at the end of this month, I actually wrote the first draft ten years ago, um, when I got back from Afghanistan. Um, so I'd, I'd written it and kind of played around with it, sat on it for a while, um, and then, you know, life goes on as it does. Um, And I was due to start a PhD in creative writing, um, last September on, on pretty much the topic we're talking about today. Um, and so as part of my PhD, um, application, I sent my, my draft of ferret into my old professor, um, so that he could write, you know, he could write a supporting statement for me to do the PhD. And he read the book and he said to me, it's actually pretty good. And I thought, well. You know, he's, he's not the kind of guy who's gonna, you know, gonna lie to me about these things. So I went back, I revisited, I started playing with it again. Got a little bit sucked in, sent it off to publishers, got a publishing deal, and then went, Oh, whoops, now I've got to choose between, between the PhD and writing. Um, you know, with the time being what it is. Um, so obviously I, I went with Ferriton, um, and kind of a year later, here we are. Um, so I guess I'm a little bit of an accidental novelist. It really wasn't my intention.
Vanessa Rogers:Well, so you, your, um, degrees, what were, what are your degrees in?
Ivy Lewis:So, um, my first degree is in ancient world studies, which is, is quite a broad title because it's, it is a fairly broad, um, spread. So, um, for the first couple of years I did Latin and Greek. So we learned ancient languages. Um, I then picked up paleography. Um. I'm just smashing old English for my undergraduate, um, ancient history, things around mythology, um, the early middle ages, and I really got quite hooked, um, on the middle ages in that degree. So I spent my third year, um. Studying kind of the more folklore elements going into like voyages in the other world. So the afterlife, um, hence, you know, my interest in kind of purgatory and hell and that kind of thing. Demonic possession rituals, which I went and I looked at from all the way back from ancient Assyria, um, through Judaism into Christianity and kind of the more modern period as well, with almost like quite an anthropological look at it. So my, my first degree was quite broad. And then, um, when I did my Masters, I settled into, into the Middle Ages, um, and demonic possession and exorcism was kind of my, my bag, which is how I, I got into folklore, because obviously you start studying one, you get drawn into the others. Um, and I, I worked on. Um, old English text, paleography again, manuscript studies, um, at the British Library, so obviously that, you know, paleography is, is essential for the reading. Um, and yeah, that's, that's kind of, kind of where I ended.
Vanessa Rogers:And did a lot of this research inspire you to start writing your, your novels?
Ivy Lewis:I think so, yeah, I think, I think it's just, um, you know, as a, as a kid I'd always been really into fantasy. I think quite a lot of kids are, like Lord of the Rings, I was that generation, you know, I don't know if you've ever heard the, the radio adaption, maybe not because kids are in America, but in, in the UK there was a radio adaption, um, of the story and that was something that I loved as a kid. Um, and so obviously I, I kind of, I read a lot of fantasy books and then I was really into history and, you know, the, the school that I went to. Again, over here in the UK, you kind of have the two schooling systems. You have the state school, which is kind of where, where everyone goes if they're not rich. And then you have obviously private schools, which are paid for. So I went to a state school, um, and I really loved history, and I really loved everything academic, but I didn't get the opportunity to learn, um, ancient languages or anything like that. So when I had that opportunity at university, um, that was something that I really went for. Um, and I just think it's the. I love folktales because they're kind of a little bit unfinished. They're sort of, um, small snapshots of bigger stories, and then they feed into bigger mythologies, and then there's like, there's worlds within worlds, and then it throws up the really big questions around good and evil, which obviously you get into if you get into theology as well. And I think, I think that's Really what feeds into my writing that kind of, I think it's, it's almost a way of me framing my own thoughts about the world and the nature of humanity and all that stuff. So yeah, it's, it's big ideas into, um, compressed into the word on the page, I guess.
Vanessa Rogers:One of the things that you also mentioned that you studied was eco critical theory and eco Semiotics I those were completely foreign words to me. So can you explain what that is?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, so this is, this is where we dip into my PhD stuff. So this is kind of the area, I may write a book about it, I'm undecided yet, but this may be the area that I take forward. I may go and do the PhD, who knows. Um, so eco critical theory is more about how we interpret literature. So, um, how we, how we read texts and how they might relate to, um, the world around us with an eco critical concern. So um, one example that I always think is quite an easy one because it's quite well known is if we think of the film Avatar, which again has been huge over the years, it's got that real, what I would say is an eco critical angle. We're talking about the destruction of resources. colonialization, you know, um, a real anthropocentric view of the world rather than a biocentric. So, um, I mean, we can, we can delve into other things. So for instance, Like the fall of the house of, of Usher is eco critical in terms of it's an entropic system, but that's, you know, it's going a bit deep, Moby Dick is another one, you know, classic literature, which, which would have an eco critical kind of, um, aspect to it. But it's, it's works that have something to say around the natural world, our, um, interactions with it. positive or negative, um, and, you know, sometimes these are intentional, um, commentaries and criticisms, which is obviously what I've done with my work. So, ferishing is very much an intentional criticism. Um, other times they're, they're less so, other times it's just hinted out or it's just, you know, maybe it's the, it's, it's the, uh, it's the popular thing to be, to be talking about. So it's kind of got drawn into the work that way. And then when we think about ecosemiotics, so again, it's a relatively new discipline. It's, um, it's branching off from semiotics, which we'll have all come across at some point, um, in our life. We come, we come across it in day to day life. So, um, you know, for instance, you see the McDonald's M, you, you know, instantly what it is. It doesn't say McDonald's, it doesn't say food, it doesn't say any of those things, but you see that M and you, you know what it is. It's a sign. It's a branch of semiotics. Um, so ecosemiotics is about how the natural world looks to, um, the species that inhabit it. So, um, for instance, a simple way of looking at that, um, is we, we talk about a concept called the umwelt, which just means the environment. Um, but it's, that's, that's what we're talking about in ecosemiotics. If we think about a garden, you know, just your average garden, it's probably got some grass in it. It's probably got hedge, maybe it's got fence, maybe in the autumn it's got some fallen leaves. If we were to put an ecosemiotics head on that and to look at it from, um, a hedgehog's perspective, to consider the umwelt from a hedgehog's perspective, we'd be thinking, right, what, what do I need? I need, um, some leaf litter because it's got insects in that I can eat. Um, I need some shelter. to hide from predators. Um, and then maybe I'll look at the fences that are around this garden and are they accessible? Can the hedgehog get through them? Um, are they stopping the hedgehog from getting in and out? Um, so it's, it's a way of considering the environment, um, from a, from a particular species point of view. So where it became quite interesting to me and we'll, and I'm sure we'll get onto it later in the pod, is how, um, fairies, you know, folkloric creatures, how they interact with their environment, because the two are inextricably linked, like you can't have folklore without environment. So my, my area of interest is essentially the umwelt of fairies. You know, what do fairies need? Where do they inhabit? Um, what things, um, do they need to, to flourish? What things send them away? If we were to, if we were to do something different, you know, would we be encouraging fairies into a particular environment in a hypothetical way? So that's, that's kind of where my area of interest lies in that.
Vanessa Rogers:And there was a paper you sent me that had, um, that talked a lot about bogs and that there's a lot of stories around bogs. Can you, can you tell our listeners about that?
Ivy Lewis:Yes, it's a really, it's really interesting research paper and it's about place law. Um, and, and bogs are quite a, quite a good one because I think they have, It's quite a common, I think, I think you mentioned actually didn't you on an earlier pod about Will o the Wisps and being a nation as well as, you know, in the British Isles. Um, but it's, it's about how place interacts with the lore and how lore interacts with the place. So, You've got a marshland, um, or a bog where people have, um, you know, historically gone, potentially got into danger, lost their lives, um, disappeared. And so, from a, a sort of a, um, a folkloric perspective, a story will be created to explain why that happens. Um, we know quite often in bogs we have the phenomenon of marsh gas, so we see the little lights that are described as, as will o the wisp. So, one of the stories that. that tends to come up around these marshlands is that, you know, the will o the wisps, they lead you off, um, lead you astray and you go off into the marsh and you, you die. There's stories about a blacksmith as well, isn't there? Um, and there's, you know, there's various other things, but they're essentially the same kind of thing. You know, marshes are dangerous places and they're dangerous places because this folkloric creature, um, is there and it's going to harm you. So that's one way of interpreting it. But equally, the other way of interpreting it is to flip it the other way around. You've already got a dangerous place and you have to come up with a reason for it to be dangerous. Um, and so where, where that's quite interesting is, is that's the interaction between place law and folklore, um, and how, how environments Some specific places give rise to particular, um, folkloric beliefs, which probably explains why we have this commonality of belief, sorry, um, across location, you know, i. e. marshes are the same throughout the world, therefore they're going to have similar kind of, um, phenomena, people are going to die in them, we kind of need this, this explanation behind them. So it's, it's a really interesting way of, of reading place, um, and it's an eco semiotic way of reading place.
Vanessa Rogers:It makes me think, you know, we had that fairy tale flip episode about the, the, the blacksmith, but also, um, the Christian Anderson's, uh, the girl who tried on a loaf and she falls into a bog. Down into the land underneath with the the marshwoman and also the devil so I had never like placed that piece that together as Bogs are dangerous places and the will of the wisp. That's interesting. You're you're putting pieces together for me
Ivy Lewis:So you've got the other bit that may interestingly describe that story as well. So if you think of the going down, and we'll get onto this later, so, you know, fairies are commonly described as coming from under the ground, whether through through she mounds, um, St Martin's land, as they're referred to in one tale, you know, lands beneath, which is where we kind of get this vaguely link with hell, but not quite hell, um, always to kind of a kind of other world. Um, so it's, yeah, it all, it all pieces together, um, in various different ways.
Vanessa Rogers:Oh, so in my head I had never, I, I guess I've never come across a story where fairies come up from the ground, um, may So that's interesting. Can you, can you tell us one of those stories just so in case any of our listeners also are like myself?
Ivy Lewis:No, it's fine. So, um, so, um, if, if we think of fairy, so, so fairy and, and you, you probably possibly discussed this on other pods, but if we, if we think about what a fairy is, a fairy is essentially, um. a secular supernatural being. So it's a supernatural being outside of any organized religion. So, you know, Christianity is a nice easy one. Within the organized religion we have, um, you know, God and the devil. We have angels. It's fairly straightforward. But then you also have this kind of separate secular category, which is where the fairies sit. Um, and if we think back to, um, even like ancient Greece, you've got myriads, dyriads, you know, things that kind of sit a little bit outside of that. Um, to link it back to, to what you're talking about with, with under the ground, probably the most important link there is to think about the Tuatha Dé Danann from Ireland. So the Tuatha Dé Danann are thought of as being a, um, a race of kind of elder gods, um, and they inhabit the land of Ireland. Ireland's a bit of a strange, um, strange country in that it doesn't really have any origin stories. It's always considered to have kind of been there, um, you know, and various different people. inhabit it. So, the Tuatha Dé Danann are, um, this, this kind of magical race of demigods, gods, and they become associated with, um, she mounds. So, so she is the word for mound in, in Ireland, um, and it's, it's, um, also becomes the name for fairy. So you would, you would call a fairy a she in Ireland. But when you're talking about she, what you're generally talking about is the Tuatha Dé Danann. Um, so we think about them as in, as inhabiting these mounds, these green mounds. Um, so coming from under the ground. Equally, um, if we look back into medieval, um, texts and we think about the, the green children, have you come across that story? Mm hmm. Yeah. So, yeah. William of Newburgh, I think it's William of Newburgh, I'd have to check my notes, but, um, in, in Woolpit, in fairly near to where I live, actually, the two green children, when they're found, they're considered to be fairy children, um, and the, the little boy pines away and dies. And the girl obviously flourishes and survives. And when she's asked about where she comes from, she describes coming from a land beneath the earth, which is called St. Martin's Land. So there's a really strong association with fairies coming from beneath the ground. Um, in various different stories, if you think about the romances, medieval romances, quite often there's a portal in a hill. Um, which takes you through to, um, Elfheim or Elfland, whichever way you want to call it. So yeah, it's a really, um, a really strong association, but if we were to find, at least, at least in the British Isles, and I can only really speak for the British Isles, if we were to, to really find an origin for it, we'd probably talk about the she, um, and the Tuatha Dé Danann in Ireland.
Vanessa Rogers:So interesting, because I've heard of the fairy rings, but not the mounds, but I guess a lot of times the rings are maybe around a mound?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, some, I mean, sometimes fairy rings are again, it takes us into, it takes us a little bit into ecosemiotics again, because what we're talking about is a, is a mushroom ring, right? Um, and it's how, how we relate to, the natural world. So when we look at the natural world, we, we look at it and we still read it in, well some of us do anyway, we still read it in a folkloric way. Um, so yeah, the rings can be do with, can be to do with portals, the mounds generally that we're talking about are burial mounds. So again, you've got that association with, with the dead. Um, so there's, there's quite often a big crossover. Of belief, um, and we could probably drive ourself to distraction trying to find some kind of Like continuity, you know some kind of textual thread. Um, but yeah, there's a lot of a lot of mixed beliefs
Vanessa Rogers:Okay, so we're on the topic of fairies So one of the things that you looked at in your work is the idea that they represent in different cultures Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, so I mean We've talked about the Tudor Nan, obviously, who I think are really, really important. When we think about fairies in all cultures, we're going back to that original definition. We're going back to that idea of a secular, supernatural being. And that's pretty much applicable throughout. Sometimes they are conceived of as a pagan deity. That's, you know, that's gone on to become this secular supernatural, which the tour de Danana. Again, I can't speak to other cultures, but there'll be plenty of other examples of this. But It's, it's always interesting to think about the role that they serve for a culture. So whenever we think about fairies, we're thinking generally, generally, generally about a creature, um, that is on its way out, but hasn't quite been pushed out of consciousness. So it's usually either because of, um, an ethnic reason. So a different ethnic group has shoved them out of their natural homeland. It can be for a religious reason. So when we think about Christianity coming into the British Isles and pushing out older beliefs, um, or the, the other reason, which I suppose is, is fairly relevant now as well, is to do with industrialization and post industrialization. So the Victorian sensibility around fairies was around this feeling that the world was becoming, um, you know, mechanized, industrialized, wild spaces were diminishing. So there was this kind of, um, renewed interest in fairies, which ironically that, that kind of is. today, right? It's a very, a very similar, um, feel and environment. Um, so they, They kind of, they serve lots of roles within culture, but they serve a role of being other in many, many different ways in terms of their liminality, in terms of their morality, you know, they're kind of this thing that's sort of familiar to us, but just stands a little bit outside. And folk and fairy tales give us a way to, to examine our own culture in that way.
Vanessa Rogers:And you say that the way that medieval Christians worldview, uh, that that worldview affects how we see and interpret fairies in modern times. Can you talk to us about that?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah. And I, and again, I would say, you know, this is very much, I'm, I'm looking from a, Western British Isles worldview is going to be very very different if we go further across the world and again, obviously in areas that aren't Christianized for want of a better word. But if we think about, um, Medieval Christianity, which in itself is quite a fascinating religion to study, we look at how the different the schema of the world was developed. So it's quite important to, to think about where our world sits and where we go when we die, which in all honesty in Christianity is one of the biggest focuses, you know, where, where'd you go when you die? That's kind of what life is about, right? You're either going to heaven or you're going to hell. So hell is, probably shouldn't use the term, but hell is invented, for want of a better term, during the Maccabean Revolt at around 160 BC. Um, it's when people first started thinking about, um, an apocalyptic, way of viewing the world. So before then, you had, um, talk about Sheol, the grave, um, and it's translated various different ways. It's sometimes translated as hell, sometimes translated as the grave, but that kind of real thinking of hell as this place of damnation that you go to, or separation as it is more accurately, wasn't really conceived of until the Maccabean Revolt. So we've got that. Um, obviously the idea of heaven, you know, where God is, where all good things are being in union. with God. And we've got these, these two places, but this is slightly problematic. It's slightly problematic in that there are quite a few conditions you have to fulfill in order to get to heaven. Um, but equally, you're probably not going to be bad enough to go to hell. So you kind of need to go somewhere else because we're obviously talking Catholic Christianity here rather than, um, Protestant Christianity or, or any other form. So, a way of solving this problem was to come up with the Doctrine of Purgatory, i. e. this kind of waiting room that you can go to, which was, um, uh, solidified in the 13th century? 12th century, I think, or 13th century. This idea of a waiting room where you go, if you've been pretty good, not quite good enough to get to heaven and, you know, not awful enough to go to hell, you've not got original sin, you've not got some terrible sin, but you're still a bit rubbish and you still need to kind of work a bit to get to heaven. That's great. We've got then these three places. We've got hell, we've got heaven, we've got purgatory. Um, but it also throws up another problem. So obviously theologians, this is why medieval Christianity is really, really important and quite interesting because they, they think about the big problems that they, they really think about good and evil and, you know, and the condition of souls and this, this massive problem of evil. Um, so you've got this other category of people. You've got, um, good people who were born before. the advent of Jesus. So you've got holy men who would not have been baptized, therefore still had original sin, but actually were without any other sin. So there was a problem of where to put them essentially. So in the harrowing of hell, Jesus goes down and he pulls up, um, the fathers as they're known. Um, and it's like, well, where did we put them, we can't put them in heaven because they've got original sin, they're not baptised. Um, so this is where the idea of the limbo of the fathers was developed, so the limbus, um, patrum. So if you are this, you know, this holy man who's not been baptised, you go, you go to limbo, you're not, um, in communion with God, you're still separate from God, but you're not suffering as such, only suffering in that you're not in communion with him. And they go there. Um, and then there's another problem, which is kind of a more practical problem. And I think, I think, you know, purgatory is quite a practical problem. It's for probably for the likes of you and I, you know, people who are not, who are not saints, who are not excellent. Um, the, a very practical problem is what happens to children who are born with original. but are born before they're baptised. So, sorry, born before they're, sorry, die, born with original sin, die before they're baptised. That was me making a really important point there in a really bad way. Um, so you've got this child who has committed no life sin, you know, they've not done anything evil, they've not committed any crimes, um, but because they've not been baptised, they can't get to heaven. And they also can't go to purgatory, because they've not been baptised. So there was this massive problem, you know, what do we do with these, with these children? Where do they go? Um, and so this is where they developed a second concept of limbo, which is the limbus puerorum, the limbo of the children. And that's where these, these little children go. And you read, like, really, really sad stories of Parents burying their unbaptized children under the eaves of churches so that when the water runs off the roof, they feel like their child is being baptized. It's really, really, really heartbreaking stuff. So there's this Real, um, there's this real need to kind of systematize the world, you know, we've got Earth, we've got the living, where does everyone go when they die? How does this fit in around good, around evil, um, you know, and, and really setting out this schema. of the world. Now where this is, and this is like a really long winded explanation to get back to your original question, so where this is important is where do we then put fairies? Where do we put these folkloric beings? Where do they sit within this schema of who goes up and who goes down? And the general feeling around fairies is that they are too good for hell and that they're too bad for heaven. And then there's this whole problem, they're obviously not baptised, so they're not going to go, you know, to purgatory. They're probably not going to go to limbo either. Um, and I think there's more of a sense of, you know, they're not dead. So we can't, kind of, we can't put them there either. They're this being that kind of straddles the world between the living and the dead. Um, and so they're a real problem in many, many ways, you know, some texts you'll see them interpreted as ghosts. So, um, Dando's dogs or, um, Herlihy's, obviously a later text, but it's got its origin sort of in, um, Heliquin and stuff like that, the host of the dead. Um, Which probably harks Sluwishy, you know, a kind of a fairy host of the dead, but they are this, this real problematic group of creatures, um, for the, for the medieval world. And consequently, pulling that forward, because obviously the Western world is seen generally now through a Christianized lens, you know, even down to our laws and the way we operate in the world. We still kind of have this feeling, um, of, of fairies being slightly liminal, morally gray creatures that are maybe a little bit beyond the system of things, even though they are very, you know, they're, they're about as natural as they come in terms of their relationships with the natural world. They sit very much outside the human world. Um, and I think, I think that's why. They're still quite interesting, and it's still quite important to recognize the influence of Christianity on, on that way of seeing them.
Vanessa Rogers:Where did they play, like, where did they go when they die in the, the Catholic medieval Christian view? Like, did they just not go anywhere?
Ivy Lewis:Wow, this is, you know, this is the peculiarity of fairies, you know, do they die, is, is one question. Oh, right. We don't know. Do, you know, do they die? Is St Martin's Land, which we talked about earlier, is this, you know, this whole other realm of existence that we think of as fairy, um, or, or are they ghosts? Are they, are they ghosts that were too bad even for hell, which some of them are conceived of as being, you know, I think, I think it's Herm or Herla. Might even be dando. One of them is too bad for hell, you know, hell rejects them so they're doomed to troop the world forever. And this is what, you know, I don't think, and someone may come on here later and correct me, but I don't think there's ever been any concrete answer of, you know, what we do with these creatures. And I think that's what makes them so interesting, because they don't really fit. In that scheme. Um, you know, they're not angels. They're not demons.
Vanessa Rogers:So you also look at a demonic possession. And I know that this is a specialty of yours. So just, just like a, a, a shortened version, because you mentioned before, maybe having you come on and talk I'm primarily about this topic because this is a fascinating topic. We had someone, I had a guest on, his name is eluded me right now, who came on and talked about the books and, um, and Jewish folklore, which is fascinating. And it's just one little, uh, one little element of demonic possession. Um, so. Tell us about how demons and the placement of fairies and medieval Christian worldview worked.
Ivy Lewis:Okay, so the interesting thing about possession, um, is, is, or was to me, not really so much even in the phenomena itself. There are academics who study that. Barbara Newman is fantastic. She talks about the role of demoniac women. Um, you know, how that fits in and, and this kind of stuff. Um, we can talk about the Desert Fathers going off into, um, into the desert to do battle, for want of a better word, with these demons and, and the role that that serves within Christianity. But the interesting thing about demonic possession is the exorcism ritual that comes with it. So there has been a form of possession and can, can we define what a demon is? Sorry. Can we define what a demon is? Yeah, so it all varies between cultures. So if we're going Christian, then it's a fallen angel. Um, it's, you know, it's, it's Lucifer, the clan, um, you know, the book of Enoch, the rebellion, the fall, that kind of stuff. Devils are sometimes seen as being kind of like minor league, um, kind of nasties, which are not quite the same as the angels, but Lucifer and his bunch are, are fallen angels. Um, there's a whole, whole other thing that I think is for another day. Um, but if we think about, um, Other cultures, for example, Assyria, um, a demon is more similar to kind of being a, uh, demigod, like a, a creature that has power to do good for you or to do evil, but is not really associated in this, this big good versus evil worldview, because obviously that's not the worldview that they held. So that, again, that's what's quite peculiar about Christianity. It gives you those distinct polarities, good and evil. Um, but you know, we go back to ancient Assyria, You've got a headache, or, you know, your cow dies, maybe it's a bad demon that causes that to happen, and so you might want to perform a ritual to appease the demon, get rid of them. Um, Lilith, for instance, who is obviously mentioned in the Bible, she comes from Assyria, and she's a whole other classification of their demon. So there's, you know, there's lots of textual continuity. You mentioned Judaism, it comes to us through Judaism, and then into Christianity. So the bit that I found interesting, um, was the exorcism ritual. What is common to these rituals, if we go all the way back through history, what stays the same and what is different. So one commonality that you will find in every type of exorcism ritual is something um, that gives life. So sometimes it's salt, which is obviously essential. for life. Sometimes it's grain, you know, it's, it's the food of the living. The rituals themselves vary, the wording of the rituals vary, but there's always this sense that you use something of the living to drive out this demon. Um, and that was the bit that I found interesting because, you know, when we're talking about all of this, when we're talking about folklore, when we're talking about religion, what we're talking about is, you know, Um, people shared beliefs, like we're human, we kind of all think in roughly the same way we think in terms of living and dead, probably good and bad, but, and, you know, in slightly different ways. And it's, it's how those rituals speak to us, um, with a, with a commonality. So all the way back through Syria, like I say, through Judaism, into Christianity, you have this same kind of, um, sense of using something from the living to drive out the dead. dead. Where this links into folklore varies is obviously if you start delving into these texts, which I've spent a disproportionate amount of time doing, you end up going into, um, what they call exemplar, um, which are a lot of stories, um, with usually with a moral Um, attached to them, kind of didactic moral. Um, and they, they kind of involve all sorts of weird and wonderful supernatural things. You'll find necromancy in there, you'll find witches, you'll find fairies, you'll find all sorts. Um, so you kind of end up going down rabbit holes. And it's like tangential thinking, um, which, yeah, which brings us this whole world together and takes us back to what we talked about earlier, this problem of where fairies fit, you know, are they demons? Can you exercise a fairy? No, you can't. Um,
Vanessa Rogers:interesting. Okay, so let's get into some modern representations because I think fairy folklore, fairy literature is, um, I don't know if it ever went out of fashion, but it's definitely very popular today. Um, you mentioned Sarah J. Mass, and I know I've read the, um, A Court of Roses and Thorns Uh, series. That's one of her most popular ones, and there's a lot of fairy lore in that one. Um, can you just talk about the, what we're seeing today?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, and I think you're right. I don't think fairies ever really did go out of fashion. Um, I think they've been represented in various different ways, and I think the appeal remains the same throughout. They're, they're morally grey, right? They're these things that are kind of not quite good, not quite bad. We know that they're powerful, they're powerful in ways that are different to us. I think we quite like that they're associated with nature and elemental magic and, you know, and really old arcane, um, arcane stuff, you know, because it's like Sarah J Maas draws on, um, for instance, the cauldron, which is a, you know, a Tuath Dé Danann myth, um, and obviously her names are, you know, Tamlin is obviously the, the fairy tale of Tamlin. Um, So she, she sort of delves in and out of this, um, this fairytale world. Holly Black, I think I mentioned as well, she's like more young adult, but again, she's, um, she draws on a lot of fairytale, um, creatures. She's got Elfhame, the Latin, you know, the realm of fairy. And I think, I think we all quite like this idea of a, You know, a place beyond our own world, um, where things are maybe not quite so straightforward, um, in terms of good, bad, you know, um, what's possible, what's not possible. Everyone likes magic, don't they? Everyone kind of likes this idea of magic. And again, fairies are kind of, not all of them, but I think, I think that trend at the moment is to see them as beautiful, you know, quite, quite lovely creatures. Um, as opposed to maybe how they were seen, um, in the past. Um, so I think, I think they're serving probably some, um, combined need at the moment, psychologically. Um, obviously there's a bit of escapism and they're great fun to escape into. Um, if you think about how previously folklorists have, have thought of them, um, Catherine Briggs wrote about them as, um, moving into, into UFO beliefs. You know, now we have UFOs instead of fairies, but we're still kind of talking about the same thing. We're talking about something that is other and comes from beyond with, we're saying space at the moment, but you know, once upon a time it would have been fairy. Um, so we think, I think they kind of fulfill the need to have a bit of magic. in our lives as well.
Vanessa Rogers:Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, from what I've read, yes, fairies are beautiful, but they also can have a very dark side as well. Right. And I think that is probably more accurate to what people believed in. previously that they weren't to be trifled with necessarily. They weren't necessarily bad, but they were not someone that you wanted to, you know, mess with.
Ivy Lewis:Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I think that's the perfect way of categorizing. So we've got, we've got like the Victorians to thank for Tinkerbell, you know, the fairies in the bottom of the garden, those, those famous, um, faked. you know, fake photos. Um, but if we go back to the Tuatha De Danann, we go back to the, the she, they are, you know, they're known as the white people or the fair folk or the Mary gentry, they're known as these beautiful, powerful beings, um, you know, medieval romance. Fairy lovers, you know, these, these creatures who are beautiful beyond imagination, often female, but you know, some male ones as well. It's a really common, um, kind of fantasy in, in the medieval period. So, you know, pretty much the same as Akhita, right? It's the same as Rhysandam, Tamlin, and all the other characters, these fairy lovers. Um, but yeah, definitely there, you know, they are, they are morally great. They're, they're beautiful to look at, but they're probably not going to behave quite the way you want them to behave. And if you cross them, you do cross them at your peril.
Vanessa Rogers:And then also you, you talk about this liminal space, which is also a term I've seen crop up and a lot more, um, fiction and maybe that's just because I'm reading more fantasy than I had been before. Um, but you see it in, in spaces where they're not even talking about fairies, fairy lore at all. Liminal spaces seems to be a term that's used in lots of fantasy. Can you talk to us about that?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, liminality is an interesting one. And I think, I think it's quite, I think it's quite prominent in a lot of, um, a lot of people's consciousness at the moment. So we can think of, we can use, we can think of liminality in time. We've just had Halloween, um, or Samhain, which is, is a perfect example of that. You know, the, the time when the veil is thinnest. So fairies belong to liminality of time. They belong to liminal periods of dawn and dusk. different times of the year, changing of the seasons, that kind of thing. They also belong in liminal spaces, um, where mankind has been but has deserted. So for instance, empty buildings, so you've got like the redcaps who inhabit empty towers, you might have different types of sprites and brownies and goblins that inhabit, you know, um, empty farm buildings and stuff like that. Um, so it's, it's kind of a place that was human but no longer belongs to a human. And then there's liminality in terms of, um, the wild, so places where humans go to gather resources, things like wood or berries out into the, into the forest. Um, and that I think, I think that is, is a particularly. interesting concept with the world that we live in at the moment with the loss of wild spaces, you know, um, when these ideas were, were originally being formulated, like the wild still very much existed. It was a dangerous place. If you've, if you've ever heard a deer bellow at night and you don't know, you know, you don't know what that sound is, it's quite a terrifying sound. Um, so for people to try and and explain, you know, what was going on in those wild spaces. Liminal spaces are fascinating because they kind of belong to humans, but they kind of don't. Um, and so that's sort of where we, where we find fairies. But equally, I think the other place we find them, we talked about it earlier, is in this, um, this liminality of, of morality. They're not really good, but they're not really bad either. You know, they might do something nice for you. Um, they might go and do your housework for you overnight, but equally they might be completely Like your crops, your life, your livestock, you know, and very stroking. So they're really hard to predict in that way. Um, I think, I don't know. I think there's kind of an attraction in that. I think the human psychology is quite attracted to to liminality. Um, so I think that's where they're quite interesting.
Vanessa Rogers:Well, and you mentioned Samhain and Halloween, but also Day of the Dead, which is not quite as celebrated, I guess, in the U. K., but it is definitely celebrated. Um, In Mexico, and I'm in Texas, so San Antonio is very, we have one of the largest Day of the Dead celebrations, but this is a also You know, a lot of the culture, it's Catholic that is celebrating Day of the Dead, but it is also this liminal space where they believe that the souls are the closest that they will be all year long, is that, um, would that, would you constitute that as a liminal space as well?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, um. Halloween, right? It's all hallows. It's a similar kind of concept. It's this idea that the veil is thinnest, um, and I think when we think of these, these days that We celebrate. Some of us celebrate with a really conscious understanding of what it is we're celebrating. Some of us just celebrate them because they've kind of been absorbed into the calendar. Um, but I think if we celebrate them and understand the worldview that they come from, you know, um, we understand that the dead, were not so separate to the living as they are perhaps now. You know, it wasn't, San death wasn't sanitized in the same way that it is now. It was still, um, you know, we. We only really think of life, and then we kind of don't really think of death at all now, whereas, you know, for medieval Christians, certainly Catholics, this, that's still very much alive and, and, and kicking, pardon the pun, like, you know, the, the afterlife is as important as this life. So I think, um, I think that's kind of an idea that I played with. When I was writing Ferrishen, because the way I conceived it is I conceived it as planes of existence, different dimensions. Um, which obviously we've seen in sci fi and stuff like that before. Um, but it's, I suppose it's about having a view of the world beyond just, um, this, this secular living world that we are all in.
Vanessa Rogers:And why do you think it is that we are so separated from death today or don't really think about it as much as the medieval Christians did? What is it about today that has changed?
Ivy Lewis:It's a really good question. I think it would, I think it depends. On faith, quite a lot of, you know, I think that's, that's one question. So if I, you know, if I was to speak to one of my really good Catholic friends, they won't, they wouldn't tell me that they were separate from it. You know, it would still be just as, um, important to them now as it would be to a medieval Christian. You know, they're, they're really concerned. Um, medieval. Christianity is, is interesting because of its, its reach, you know, it, it pretty much took over countries, continents for a period of time. Um, and it was a real unifying belief. Um, and so for them. their concern was not with day to day life. Yes, there was a concern around obviously getting food and having a job and all of that kind of stuff. Um, but the soul is really, really important. You know, the fate of your soul is more important than the fate of your body or, um, you know, the body is a husk to them, which is where we obviously get. you know, demons and angels and stuff coming from. So it's, it's the soul that's important and the soul carries on after death. So for them, this life is not all there is, you know, there is, there's plenty more to come. So, so it is a very real concern. Um, I, I think obviously society has changed. We've become more secular. We've stepped back from religion and this is, you know, it's not even necessarily just Christian religion. We've, we've stepped back from religion generally. Um, so maybe we, we think less about these kinds of things. Um, We've stepped back from death as well. You know, how, how many people have seen a dead body? Um, very few of us, I would hazard a guess these days. Um, and if we have, it's, it's probably been in very sanitized conditions. Um, you know, death is not a, it's not, it's not real to us. In many ways, it's, it's removed, you know, even when we think about, um, ways of eating in, in the modern world, you know, if, if you want to eat a chicken, you go pick some chicken up from a shop or it's already, sometimes it's even pre cooked, right? You don't have to go off and slaughter the chicken. So we're so far removed from the cycles of life and death, um, that it's almost an abstract thing to us, you know, and, and how many, how many podcasts do you see that will talk to you about do this thing and it will make you live a little bit longer? It's not going to stop you dying. It's not going to change your mortality. But we're so, you know, we're so focused on this, this life and having more of this life. We've kind of forgotten that, um, you know, it's going to end and maybe there's something beyond it and maybe there isn't. Um, but we're, we're, we're focused on here and now, you know, um, and I think, I think that's probably, um, probably where the difference is.
Vanessa Rogers:Yeah. Okay. So talk to us about, so did you coin the term Feifi or is it, I don't know.
Ivy Lewis:I'm going to say yes. I'm going to go with yes. Why not? I did a Google. I can't find anyone else using it. So if anyone else wants to claim it, have at it. It was kind of, you know, you're writing a novel and you go off and you try and sell it to a publisher and you have to explain what genre it's in. Um, and I would say mine fits, it blends genres. So it's, it's sci fi in a sense that we're looking at a futuristic world, a dystopian future in which the earth has been devastated by nuclear weapons. If you're warfare, we're living in bunkers underground, you know, everything has gone horribly, horribly wrong. So it's, it's futuristic in that sense. Um, and it's very much based in folklore in the sense of, of humanity's response to that has been to open a fairy portal and to invade a fairy realm. Um, because obviously the fairy realm is this beautiful utopia. Um, so that's, that's kind of where I've, I've gone. It's a blend of sci fi. Um, with fey and folkloric type ideas, um, so yeah, if anyone else wants to claim it, go for it.
Vanessa Rogers:I didn't even look to see if there was a Wikipedia entry on it, so that would, that would be interesting. Um, so what other, so you, you have not come across, have you come across any other works that kind of blend that kind of sci fi and fairy realm?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, I think, I think Romanticy is kind of doing it a little bit. Um, you know, if you think of what, um, like Rebecca Yaros has been doing with Fourth Wing, I think she's, she's kind of doing it a little bit. So she's got, I suppose, fairly modern ideas of, you know, um, military. It's not exactly the same. I don't think they've got quite the same technology. I think it's more heavily based in magic, so maybe not. Um, I don't know is the honest answer. If anybody else has to find one and prove me wrong, then, um, I'll say Terry Brooks. Maybe Terry Brooks might be a good example, actually, when he did his, um, he did Magic Kingdom. Um, he did his Magic Kingdom series and it was set in New York and he brought a, he brought a Magic Kingdom. So maybe that is, yeah, maybe that's, that's the kind of example. And I think Stephen Donaldson did it a little bit when he wrote Mordant's Need. Um, so he wrote, um, a duology which was very fantasy, Not so much fairy, but very fantasy. And then he brought in an element of sci fi towards the end with a very random space soldier, um, who joins in the battle. So maybe, so maybe there are, you know, maybe there are people around there, um, that are doing it. So I won't, I won't claim it as being entirely unique.
Vanessa Rogers:And you, you mentioned already that at the heart of your story is this eco critical, eco semiotic, um, kind of message. Is there anything else that you really needed to get out, uh, in this story that you're, you're trying to pass on or maybe just was in your head that you feel was important?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, so, so for me, my writing is an exploration of, of people and all these things we've talked about. So, you know, um, Good, bad, morally gray, um, where, how, how we view the world. Um, so, obviously, my, my story, Ferish Inn, is, is set within a futuristic war zone. So, you know, the main characters are soldiers. We explore, um, ideas around moral injury, you know, um. Soldiers asked to do horrific things, um, and the toll that that takes on them if they step back and look at really the, you know, the morality of that. Um, there's an exploration of mental health, you know, um, PTSD, dissociation. Um, trauma, that kind of thing. And then the other thing that I wanted to do is I wanted to give, um, new life to old stories. So, it's very heavily drawn upon, um, the folklore and the mythology of Ireland. So, in later books, the She, Make, and Appearance, Manan and Maclure, um, Manx folklore at Cofenadieri are in there. Um, you've got the Morrigan. Um, in her various forms as a war goddess or fake goddess. And I, I kind of, um, I hung the whole thing on this, um, Celtic structure. Um, of, of, you know, having other worlds, of having, um, Evan and Magmel and Fomoria and Earth and Teotangira, which sort of is their afterlife, you know, their place beyond death. So I, I kind of wanted to I wanted to write stories that are really heavily grounded in folklore, but that feel real. I wanted to imagine what would happen if we did actually butt up against, you know, the folklore and the fairy tale folk that we've been writing about for so many years. Um, so, you know, how does a modern soldier equipped with rifles, how does he cope with, you know, uh, Uh, a fairy. How does he respond to that? Um, and that was kind of what I played with. I wanted to, to really give it a feeling of reality and a bit of, I suppose, a bit of grit as well. I didn't want it all to be, you know, sparkly magic and love stories and, um, yeah, that kind of stuff.
Vanessa Rogers:And how many are in this series? I know your first one is coming out in November. Um, but how many do you plan to have in this, this series?
Ivy Lewis:So, um, Ferrisian will be a trilogy. There'll be, um, three main books and then there's a prequel and a sequel as well to, to bookend the main story just because of the way, um, you know, um, folklore is drawn in. It makes sense to write it in that way. Um, so my first one obviously is out, as you said, the end of this month. Um, book two. To be out next year and all being well, the year after, um, and then yeah, the prequel and the sequel. After that, there may well be shorter stories, there may well be other bits and pieces. Um, my novella is being re released hopefully next year, um, with illustrations this time. So I'm working with a folklore illustrator as well and she's, she's bringing that to life. Very kind of, um, frowdy and way, um, which is quite exciting. So, um,
Vanessa Rogers:and is, does this one tie in, does your novella tie in at all to the Fersen series or is it completely separate?
Ivy Lewis:I want to say it's completely separate. It's separate but it's got a similar feel. So, um, Gandhidon again is set in a dystopian future, but this time instead of the, uh, you know, the humans invading Faerie, Faerie has taken over and the humans are on the run. So it's kind of flipped the narrative. The other
Vanessa Rogers:way around.
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, so similar ideas, but. Um, but told in a different way,
Vanessa Rogers:one of the things that you mentioned in your work, it was that in your studies rather, um, was that the, one of the powerful parts about folklore and fairy tales are those textual gaps. So snapshots that readers fill, fill in, um, is that possible at all in a novel series like what you're writing or, um, is it. Is it not?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, so when we're talking about textual gaps, we're kind of going into literary theory a little bit. So, um, you've possibly come across structuralism with Propp and Levi Strauss, who have this idea that fairy tales are kind of hung all on the same, fairy tales are all hung on the same kind of structure, you know. Um, like a really easy one would be like the hero and the dragon and the damsel in distress, for instance. That's the kind of thing. Um, and then post structuralism, you have, um, Uh, Isa, who, who coins the reader response theory, and his theory is that, um, reading is, um, is an interactive process, essentially, so the writer, I put a certain amount down on the page, and then as a reader, you ideate from my words, you imagine this whole other story from what I've written, um, so fairy tales do this quite often. obviously clearly, um, clunkily in some ways, they'll drop you straight in the middle of a narrative, like there'll be, you know, um, the washerwoman for instance. So you know nothing about the washerwoman, you don't know what her family is like, you don't know how old, you know, you know absolutely nothing, you get dumped into this fairy tale. It will tell you something like, I don't know, maybe she came across a kelpie or whatever it happens to be, and she escaped it or she didn't, and then the story ends. And you're kind of left there, and even, you know, even the Brothers Grimm do it to a certain extent, you're left to kind of imagine. all these other things that go on, right? A little bit like nursery rhymes, they're the same. But when we think of novels and any kind of writing, really, there are natural textural gaps. Like when you jump from one paragraph to the next, it's a textural gap. There are gaps in, you know, the imagery that you create. You'll describe a certain amount, but maybe you'll leave a certain bit out. You'll drop in and out the story. You know, someone wakes up in the You're probably not told how they sleep or do They go off to the loo, or you know, all these other different bits and pieces, so there's, there's always natural gaps in stories. Um, and obviously what we were talking about earlier, we were talking about how many books are in my series. I, I, it was important to me that I, I don't want to overwrite. I, I want to leave there, I want to leave the reader with questions. So my favourite stories leave me with questions. They leave me thinking, you know, what happened next? Did X, Y, and Z happened, did this character go off and do this, and I kind of like that, I kind of like things that are unfinished, um, I think it leaves, leaves almost an echo in your mind, and I think that's what's so powerful about fairy stories as well, and folktales, is you kind of, you think about this weird little story that you were told, and it leaves all these questions, and that's kind of what I like about it, so, um, yes, is the answer to that question, I very much try to do it with my writing, um, I hope you're not explaining too much, but just explaining enough.
Vanessa Rogers:It does that mean that your, your stories are not quite as long as some of the other fantasy stories because that's one of the things about, you know, reading fantasy, you have to like, be prepared to really read a lot of pages. I think the first book of the AKHR series with Sarah J. Maas, um, was, 24 hours. I, I do audio books, so I, I don't know page numbers, but I think it was a 24 hour book, which probably was in the 600, 700 page range. I'm not really sure, but long. And that was just the first of the series, right? So, um, where's yours lie in that?
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, so I would say, so, um, Ferish Inn is sitting at about, I think, about 450, 500 pages, so it's a fair old chunk of book, um, and the other two will be a fair old chunk of book as well, um, but I suppose the one thing I will say is my writing style is quite short and sharp, so I tend to write in kind of short staccato bursts, maybe a little bit similar to a a screenplay or something like that, just because of the way, um, so, so when I write a novel, I don't sit down and plan chapters, I don't sit down, I don't plan anything, I see it in my head, you can see the artwork behind me, I see it, I see the pictures, I ask questions of the characters and I write it down, so it, perhaps it's a slightly different experience to, to someone who, who has sat and planned it all out, um, and I think the three books, Tie the story up fairly neatly, you know, there's a beginning, there's a clear end with some questions, um, and hopefully it's framed in a way that's readable. My novella and my short stories, and actually that is, that's what I enjoy writing more if I'm, if I'm perfectly honest, so my novella. Each chapter is in itself a folk tale and then you can read all of the folk tales together to make the whole story. Um, and that's, to be honest, that's, that's where my enjoyment is because you have to be a little bit more brutal about what you write and how much you write and you have to think about it a little bit more.
Vanessa Rogers:No, are they, are they fairy tale folk? Are they folktales that have already, like, that exist in the world, or are they folktales that are, just exist in, in that world that you've created?
Ivy Lewis:No, so they are, they are folktales that exist in the world, and they're tied together by our heroine, Misha, um, and she is journeying, journeying through this world, um, Um, looking for her lost pony, this wild fairy, and she is a, she is herself a liminal creature. She's a little bit in the forest, she's a little bit out, she's a little bit fairy, she's a little bit not. Um, so each chapter you meet a different folkloric creature, so there are, um, there are bogarts in there, there's a nixie, there's kelpies, you know, redcaps, um, there's a little, a little English folktale, um. which is originally the Strawberries and Goats Cream but has been turned into the Raspberries and Goats Cream. So it's all these strange little stories that are probably reasonably familiar and each chapter is one of these little stories but, you know, put into Misha's world, um, with the Fairy King, Helequin, who is kind of haunting her steps the whole way, and then her travel companion who is, uh, One of my readers termed him as a waste fairy, which I quite enjoyed, um, because he kind of shows up when he's not needed and disappears when he is, and yeah, he's, uh, he's quite an interesting character as well. So it's, yeah, I, I have to say that Gandhid and in that world and that way of writing brings me an awful lot of joy. I think it's great fun.
Vanessa Rogers:That does sound like a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to reading it. Um, and I did want to ask you, we're getting short on time, but one of the things that you mentioned, uh, Okay. Which was that you structured it based off, uh, Celtic mythology, and I just wanted to know if you could give us just a little bit of that story that you reimagined or put into your stories so that your, your audience or my listeners who pick up your book, uh, might have that, uh, in the back of their mind.
Ivy Lewis:Yeah, so Gandeden is British folklore, um, and that is, is a slightly separate thing. Fereshin is all structured around, um, ideas of, um, the gods and the, um, the old heroes of Ireland. So you've got, like I said, the Tuath Dé Danann, uh, the people of Danu, the tribe of the goddess Danu, um, who are the fairy folk, the Shi, um, And then you've got Mananam McClure, who, um, takes the role of the Fairy King in my, in my story. He is the, the ruler of the She Folk. Um, and then you've obviously got the Morrigan, who is the, the goddess of, of Some people flippantly refer to her as the goddess of death, but she kind of isn't really. She's a, she's a triple goddess. So she takes the form of, um, Five, the, uh, the battle crow, um, you know, who foretells El's death, she takes the, um, the, the form of, um, Nebian, who is, who is the, um, bringer of battle fury and chaos. She's sometimes thought of as a goddess of fate. So she kind of has, um, several roles, but she is, um, you know, she's a living character. In my, in my stories, um, in Indek, who is the king of the Fomorians, um, the Favori, as they should be pronounced in the, uh, you know, in the correct tongue, who are the kind of the monstrous race who do battle, um, with the Tua de Danan. And then you've got, um, the Fenidiri, who are my, my little tribe of, um, peace loving faerie, um, who are based on, um, Manx folklore. Um, so, The whole world is structured on the idea of several planes of existence, you know, the, the fairy realms, um, which loosely, um, equate to Celtic mythology, the afterlife. So you've got Evan, um, or Aon, as it's sometimes pronounced, you've got Magmel, you've got Fomoria, you've got Earth, you've got Teotangira, which is, you know, the blessed afterlife. Um, and that's, that's kind of, it's like a whole other cosmology. And it's, um, it's held together by, um, the power of the Great Serpent, who we sometimes will see in loads and loads of different myths, um, you know, the Ouroboros, the, um, you know, that, that, um, presence that gives life or, or a world ending presence. So it's, it's kind of, it will probably feel familiar to anybody who reads and knows Celtic mythology, and it'll also probably. We feel a little bit different at the same time, and that's, that's kind of what I wanted to do. I wanted to almost write it in the way that Greek myths are written. You know, the gods are real, they come down to earth, they get involved in human matters, and that was kind of the feel that I wanted to, to bring into it. Um, so yeah, that's, that's how it's held together with folklore.
Vanessa Rogers:How fascinating. So we're coming to the end. We've covered a ton. Uh, what did we miss? I know there's probably so much more that we could have covered, but, um, Is there anything that you feel like we, uh, didn't touch on that you wanted to?
Ivy Lewis:No, I just, I just think it's huge. You know, it's, it's such a huge topic and there are so many avenues you could go down and yeah, it's, it's, it's days and days of podcasts worth of discussion. for listening to me talk for an hour or so.
Vanessa Rogers:Well, thank you, Ivy, for joining us today.
Ivy Lewis:Thank you very much.
Vanessa Rogers:And thank you folksy folks for joining us on this fairy journey. Uh, we will be linking Ivy's, uh, two books on, uh, our website on the show notes. So my website is www. fabricoffolklore. com and the links to her books and also to her website will, uh, be there. Um, and If you enjoyed this episode and if you have a friend, uh, who likes fairy stories, make sure that you share this episode with them, uh, so that they learn about a, a new fairy, uh, book that is just coming to the market. You can also find Fabrica Folklore on social media. We're on Instagram, on Facebook, and a little bit on Twitter slash X. Thanks so much for unraveling the mysteries of folklore. Once again, I'm your hostess, Vanessa Y. Rogers, and until next time, keep the folk alive.
