Ep 15: Wild Swans - Fairy Tale Flip

Buckle up, fairy tale enthusiasts! We're kicking off this magical episode with some thrilling news – we're launching a Fairytale Journal! Its in draft mode so we want your input! But that's just the beginning of our enchanted journey. Today, we're diving headfirst into the mesmerizing world of Hans Christian Andersen's "The Wild Swans." 

Episode 15 is nothing short of a wild ride as we unravel the threads of this captivating tale, exploring its hidden depths and shimmering symbolism. We chat about the power of silence (who knew being quiet could be so intense?) and the surprising role of stinging nettles – ouch! 

But trust me, it's all part of the fairy tale magic. We're making a splash by discussing how water isn't just wet – it's a symbol of epic proportions in fairy tales. And speaking of epic, wait until you hear about the swan symbolism. These aren't your average park pond dwellers; we're talking Greek mythology, cultural significance, and transformations that'll blow your mind!

But wait, there's more! We're time-traveling through literary history, touching on Arthurian legends (hello, Morgana!), and uncovering how "The Wild Swans" has shape-shifted through the ages. We'll even peek into Hans Christian Andersen's brilliant mind and see how his beliefs colored this timeless story.

So, grab your favorite listening snack, settle in, and prepare to be swept away on a current of fairy tale wonder. This episode is a magical rollercoaster you won't want to miss!

WILD SWANS TALE
DRAFT JOURNAL for WILD SWANS- 

00:00 Introduction to Fairytale Flip

01:07 Exciting News: Launching a Fairytale Journal

04:33 Summary of 'The Wild Swans' by Hans Christian Andersen

06:46 Themes and Symbolism in 'The Wild Swans'

10:09 The Power and Complexity of Silence

22:18 Pain and Purification: The Role of Nettles

26:09 Water as a Symbol in Fairytales

27:50 The Importance of Water in Fairy Tales

28:09 The Journey and Transformation of the Swans

32:18 Symbolism of Swans in Various Cultures

34:01 Greek Mythology and the Swan Connection

36:47 Arthurian Legends and the Role of Morgana

42:25 Historical Context and Variations of the Wild Swans

49:39 Hans Christian Andersen's Influence and Beliefs

51:54 Conclusion and Listener Engagement

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Transcript

[00:00:05] Vanessa: Welcome, welcome to Fairytale Flip. My name is Vanessa y Rogers and I'm the hostess of Fabric of Folklore. And my co-host is Donnel Lee. Fields of scaffolding magic. And every month we come together and we talk about fairytales and what they symbolize, what they mean in our lives today, their his.

Historical context and we kind of pick them apart, flip them on their head and kind of dissect them. So today we are going to be talking about the Fairytale by Hans Christian Anderson. Anderson. Yeah. Uh, wild Swans. And Donna is gonna give us a summary of this story, which is actually a very long, I think it's like 15 pages.

Uh, how Anderson read it, wrote it, so she's gonna condense it. 

[00:00:59] Donna: Yeah. And before I do that, and by the way, there is a recording of me reading an abbreviated, um, version of the story because it is so long and it's so wonderful that I just cut a, a little bit out of it so that it's a little more, um. 

Exciting News: Launching a Fairytale Journal

[00:01:12] Donna: You know, a little more of a mouth bite, but we have some really exciting news.

We, we decided, we talk about it now, didn't we, Vanessa? Yes. Yes. About, um, something we wanna offer our listeners and we've been working on a journal, so we've been working. One of the reasons Vanessa and I really love fairytales is because of how applicable what it is and how much we can learn about our own lives and our own selves from.

The archetypes and the messages and fairytales. Mm-hmm. And so what we're doing, and this is Vanessa's idea, but I am just all in because it's so exciting, we're doing a journal. So do you wanna explain a little bit about what your idea is, Vanessa? 

[00:01:47] Vanessa: Yeah. So basically we are gonna take, every month we're gonna have one fairytale in the journal is gonna be for a a year.

And we're gonna kind of, um, ask questions that stir up. Uh, emotions or, uh, themes in your own life and see how that story relates to your own life, whether it's historical, what happened to you in the past, or what your goals are for the future. And see how these fairytales actually do have meaning in today's modern world and for us in, uh, our lives right now.

And so we're kind of working with some different structures and trying to figure out, uh, what the best way is going forward. Um. For this journal. So Donna, uh, we've been doing drafts of different stories and how to write up, um, these questions. And so Donna had the great idea for us to ask the audience to in, have input on what they would like to see, uh, in that journal.

So we're gonna offer our guests, uh, we're gonna have. Multiple links in down below. One link for, uh, to watch the video of the Wild Swans, the elongated version, and the second link will be a version of the Wild Swans draft, um, as a journal, uh, a, a way to ask questions for you in your own life. Is 

[00:03:22] Donna: that the way of saying it?

Exactly. So we just wanna, that's, no, that's wonderful. It's really, we're going by chapters. So each fairytale, we're picking 12 fairytales, I believe, and one of them is the wild swans. Yes. Which I'm really excited about. And it's, and so it would be for four weeks and I am giving you a summary of the fairytale and then.

Pulling out different motifs or different archetypes and then showing different meanings, possible meanings of those motifs and archetypes, and then asking you how they might apply to your life. So for instance, we might see the princess right now who's gonna be sitting on a glass, a very fragile GA glass stool, while her brothers are sitting on solid chairs and using pens and papers, and she's looking at a picture picture book.

And the question might be in the journal, where have you felt? That your skills have not been appreciated. Where have you felt that you've been condescended to, perhaps? And so that's just an idea of one week, let's pull some ideas from the fairytale and see how it might apply in our lives and how we could use that to improve our lives, to improve our own skills, to improve our interactions with other people.

So we're gonna offer this to you and we'd love your feedback on it. 

[00:04:32] Vanessa: Yes, absolutely. And we're really excited about this project and we hope you are as well. 

[00:04:38] Donna: Yeah. 

Summary of 'The Wild Swans' by Hans Christian Andersen

[00:04:38] Donna: Alright, so having said that, let's get into the Wild Swans and I get to do the summary, which is not as long as the story itself, thankfully. So here's the story, the Wild Swans by Hands, Christian Anderson.

There are versions by the Grim Brothers and others, but this is the, the more. Like viable ones that we wanted to, to use. Um, and there's also some fantastic modern versions. Also, Vanessa, I wanna make sure by the, before the end of this that I offer those. Okay. Okay. So Han Christian Anderson wrote The Wild Swans.

There's a lot of Christian. Um, indications at it because he was very religious. But I'm gonna give you this sort of non-partisan, non-religious view. It focuses on the youngest sister who's Elis, and she's a princess whose father unknowingly marries a wicked witch. Once the, the mother dies and the queen always dies, and the father always unknowingly.

Marries a wicked witch. After the wedding, the wicked witch decides she doesn't like any of the children. There are 12 of them, so she curses the brothers. She turns them into swans. She tries to do away with Elisa, but it doesn't work because Elisa is so good and so pure that she escapes most of the, the curse that the witch, the mother, the stepmother puts on her.

The brothers fly away as time passes. Elisa works hard. She finds, she finds her brothers almost coincidentally. There's a good witch who explains to her how she can, um, excuse me, how she can change the curse. She can overcome the curse of her brothers, turn the back into princes, but it means that she has to, um.

She has to sacrifice, not even her personality but her, but her hands, her physical body. Mm-hmm. She does this. She's misunderstood by a lot of people along the way. She finally turns her brothers back into humans and she's almost burned at the stake in doing it. But in the end, um, it all is resolved and they all live happily ever after.

There's a lot in between the beginning and the end though. 

[00:06:42] Vanessa: Yes. 15 pages worth. 

[00:06:45] Donna: Yeah. But absolutely wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. All, all 15 pages of it. 

Themes and Symbolism in 'The Wild Swans'

[00:06:51] Vanessa: So Donna, tell me why it is that you love this story so much? 'cause this is one of the ones that really speaks to you, right? 

[00:07:00] Donna: Yeah, it really does. It always has.

And I think that there's a certain fascination about, first of all, a person being turned into. Anything else, but especially a swan, because a swan has this certain elegance, a certain mystique. It has a lot of symbolic meaning, which we'll go into, and then one family member or friend, or a dear one has to sacrifice herself or himself by becoming scarred emotionally and physically to save that person.

So I think that it's, it's a whole fascinating interaction. What, what about it is that you like Vanessa. 

[00:07:35] Vanessa: Well, okay. So when I first read it, I was just like, what, what is this story? This is the wildest fairytale I feel like I've ever read it. I found it super bizarre and, and so, um, I, I do enjoy it, but I, I find it just like so strange that it's, it's.

Interesting in its strangeness. Um, so I don't know. That was my initial reaction. It just was a weird, weird story for me. 

[00:08:12] Donna: I'm very surprised because you love fairytales and there's so many fairytales where there's a transformation. So what about this one was just sort of out of think for you? 

[00:08:22] Vanessa: I don't know.

It wasn't necessarily out of sync. It was just like. So much happened and she was, you know, there's just so many things that happened. She happened to be silent, her having to like burn her hands to make these shirts. Her, she, uh, being swept up by a prince and originally I, I thought that he married, they got married prior to the end.

And in some of the folk tales they actually do. But in, in Hans Kristen Andersons. Um, they don't, he just provides her a room, which makes it better, in my opinion, because if she can't speak, she, I mean, it's a little bit hard for her to consent, I guess. You know, I think about the Little Mermaid and how she used a lot of body language to communicate with Prince Eric in the movie itself, so that felt less creepy than.

Just the way it was told in the story where, you know, she's, she just is voiceless and he just takes her to her castle and he's actually being, I, I feel in the end that he was actually being kind and the gesture was sincere and not necessarily a creepy one, but still, um, there, there's just so many strange elements that, um, for one thing, her evil stepmother.

Um, tries to make her look terrible in front of her father by making her look ugly. And eventually her father sends her out because he doesn't believe that's her, his daughter. Um, I don't know. It, I don't know. It just was strange to me. I enjoyed it. I, and I think that there must be a reason why it has.

Struck a cord because there, it, it has been told across not only Europe, but in, uh, the Middle East and in other places as well. 

[00:10:13] Donna: Yeah, it does. 

The Power and Complexity of Silence

[00:10:14] Donna: So let's get into a little bit, because what you're talking about, you know, the little Mermaid, she's silent and there's, there's a lot of, uh, speaking in silence, especially for female protagonists and in this one.

So in the journal, I love this because I did address the speaking in the silent part, and there's some quotes for by Rumi, for instance, where the quieter you become the more you're able to hear, um, work hard in silence. Let your success made the noise. Silence is not the absence of something, but the presence.

Of everything. And so when she has to become silent, all of a sudden she has a whole world open up to her. She has to really go deeper into herself than she did before and meditate on what is really important to her. What's really important to her are her brothers, and what's really important to her is not Mm.

Her father has rejected her because of her physicality. He did. He literally did not recognize his own daughter because she was dirty and. Her hair was a different color and he couldn't see who she was. Mm-hmm. So this silence to me is fascinating. And I was actually gonna write, um, a whole book on silence in fairytales because it is prevalent.

And it is so loud, you know, that kind of, um, paradoxical idea of silence being loud. Yeah. So I find that really interesting. I find it for her is sort of a break in her existence and she has to focus entirely on her biggest priority, which is her family bond, her love for her brothers, and. So if we break it down, maybe it won't seem so strange because I think usually it goes the other way.

I think some of the ones that you choose are just too bizarre for words, and then I find something in it that I like. So hopefully I'm gonna get you on board too. 

[00:11:58] Vanessa: No, I liked it. I liked it. I liked strange things. I, I find that there's some more to talk about and more to explore when it's strange. So it's.

Just because I found it strange, did not mean I didn't like it. It just was a wild ride. Right. Um, I really latched onto silence as well, um, as one of the themes and one of the things, um, that I did not pick up on initially, but when I, when I was looking at the themes of the story. Silence as a strength and silence as a burden.

The power of silent endurance. Her suffering is noble but necessary, but it's also dangerous for her. The danger of being unheard, she's wrongly accused and she can't defend herself. Um, so I thought that that juxtaposition of silence was really fascinating. My initial reaction to her silence. Was kind of the idea, um, about children being, um, seen and not heard is often, uh, put on women as well, especially historically, right?

It was not popular for women to express their opinions to seem intellectual. Um, and so I kind of, uh, had that mindset about. I was actually saying in my head, Eliza, I did see sometimes that they use an a z and I don't know what it was pronounced like in, in Denmark, so, but in my head, so if you hear me say Eliza, I'm meaning Elisa.

We'll we'll use the same word. We'll use the same name. Right. Um, but then also what came to mind besides, uh. You know, women needing to have the role of silence was, particularly in today's world, um, when we have this political struggle that we are currently going through. I two MLK junior quotes came up for me.

Um, our lives begin to end the day. We become silent about things that matter, and in the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. And so this is kind of a different. Concept of, of silence, of people not speaking out when they, when they need to speak out specifically for other people.

But in this instance, her silence is power, right? She is doing this not as an inaction, but as an action. So it's this. Strange. So I, I actually looked into silence a little bit more and there's a lot of different ways silence can be portrayed. So, um. As I was mentioning, silence as strength. Her choice to remain silent is a protection of her brothers.

It's, it's like you were saying, meditative. It's restraint. It's active. Right? Um, there's a famous Leonardo da Vinci Insight. It says, uh, nothing strengthens authority so much as silence and. It really highlights the power of calculated silence in, uh, communication. Have you ever, what are your thoughts about that?

I. 

[00:15:12] Donna: It is really interesting because it sort of mirrors, uh, you know, that I'm very into spirituality and it mirrors, it mirrors what Yogananda says. Um, the best thing we can do if we're faced with some injustice is to be silent. Um, if it's verbal, if it's verbal abuse is what I'm saying, to be silent because there's nothing you can do to argue the point.

There's absolutely nothing you can do. Mm-hmm. However, what you are also talking about is when we are silent and have the ability to speak and don't to defend someone else. Mm-hmm. That's something else entirely. Right? So we need to be very careful about being able and, and. Have a way to, um, resolve a situation with speech by breaking the silence and also knowing when to create a silence as a barrier.

Mm-hmm. Very interesting juxtaposition here, right? 

[00:15:59] Vanessa: Yeah. And you know what came up for me in this Silence As Strength? I don't know if you ever watched that show, um, with Tina Fey and Alex Baldwin is 30 Rock. It was a, it was a popular comedy show for a while, right? Did you ever watch that show? 

[00:16:13] Donna: I watched it a long time ago.

Yes. 

[00:16:15] Vanessa: Okay. There was a scene and it, this is one of the scenes that struck, stuck with me for a really long time, and Alex B. Baldwin is in negotiations with his nanny to watch his child, and she is a, I don't remember where she's from, but she has an accent. She's Caribbean of some sort, and he's trying to negotiate with her for her salary because he's, she's the only one who's able to settle his son, and, and so they, they sit in.

A, a boardroom and he thinks that he's gonna have all the power. And so he like starts like offering something to her and she's holding an orange and she starts peeling the orange and she says nothing. And so then he like counters himself and adds more money and. She just is remained silent and he basically ends up giving her like so much money, more money than he intended just because she sat there in silence and her silence was active, right?

It was intentional and it was power. And so I, I think it's important for us to be able to, to see that silence is not always, uh, negative and it has lots of different, uh, avenues of expression. 

[00:17:29] Donna: I really like that you brought that up. And one of my big pet, my big pet peeves, my big pet peeve, um, with people is when they, when they feel the need to speak a lot, I feel that a lot can be said in very few words.

And even more in silence. But there are some people that I think that neurologically they, they have to speak a lot. I have to think that because they really do not know how to stop talking. There are people that need to explain everything in detail and don't have a, don't seem to be able or want to stop speaking.

And then there are others. I mean, you and I are speaking a lot on this podcast because we need to, it's, you know, it's something very audio. But more normally I don't say a lot and I feel I, I often jump a lot of information that I need to have given because in my mind I don't need to say all the details.

So I really appreciate silence. I think it's very powerful. 

[00:18:23] Vanessa: Hmm. I find silence hard. I, I, I do. Interesting. Enjoy. Um. I do, I will do meditation for short time periods, not long time periods. I did a meditation retreat years back and, and it, it was, it was good, but it was really difficult. Like it was hours and hours and hours of meditation.

So it was a lot of silence and it felt like work. I was exhausted by the end of the day. And, and I think that there, you know, I think that as Americans we are surrounded by constant movement and noise and so silence is something that we're sometimes uncomfortable with. And I. Especially, you know, you and I have different lives as well 'cause I'm a mother of three young children who are crazy.

Yes. And my entire life is chaos. And so when there are moments of silence, it's like, what is this? Like I crave it in some instances, but also like there's something wrong. Right? If there's, if my children are in a different room and there's silence, something is happening and it, there's 

[00:19:37] Donna: Right. That's a danger sign with three children, definitely.

Yeah. 

[00:19:40] Vanessa: Yeah. 

[00:19:41] Donna: And for me it's completely different because I live alone. I, I have a, a 16-year-old dog and she's pretty quiet. Um, so I, but I relish it because I lived, I grew up at a very chaotic house with a mother, that very domineering mother who's very loud. And so even. All these years later, I crave silence.

I really need it for my soul. So I would be interested in what our, our listeners feel about silence. 

[00:20:04] Vanessa: Yeah, that is interesting. I have a couple other things that I found about silence that we've kind of touched on. Um, silence as oppression. Silence being forced on someone. And in a way, she is being forced to be silent.

Right? Oh, this 

[00:20:18] Donna: is oppressive silence in a certain ex. Yeah. She turns it into something absolutely beautiful. But she is forced to be silent. Yes. 

[00:20:26] Vanessa: Mm-hmm. And, and, and we see this, and this is was my first thought, like women were silenced at, uh, because their. They were feared in a lot of ways. I'm not really sure where that fear came from and why it was so important for women to be silenced by society, but that was definitely a, um, you know, a, a column of society, especially in European society and Christian society.

[00:20:55] Donna: But think about that, Vanessa, because we're talking about silence and the power of silence. But there also is the power of speech. And if we use words very carefully, we can, we can show injustice, we can speak injustice. And men don't want that from women. And know historically, uh, very generally, men didn't want that from women.

And so silence them. And women are not allowed to talk in many, uh, public, public, um, scenes. And they were not allowed in the boardroom. They were not allowed. In general, they were not allowed in, in, um, influential positions to silence them. Yeah. So there's that oppressive silence. 

[00:21:29] Vanessa: And I also think that this really had significance for the author Hans Christian Anderson, um, because he himself was silenced by a lot of people.

Specifically, uh, he went to a boarding school, uh, with a, an incredibly abusive headmaster who discouraged him from writing and he would, he would write things. And the, the, um, the headmaster basically said it was trash. There was, there was a few things that he wrote while he was there. Um, I can't remember the title of it, but one is like, considered a literary success.

That the headmaster told him was trash. And so I think that this specifically, uh, spoke to Hans Christian Anderson because he felt silent, silenced. 

[00:22:18] Donna: I love that. I don't, I think I might've read something about his childhood a long time ago, but I love that you brought it up again. 

Pain and Purification: The Role of Nettles

[00:22:23] Donna: And so that's really interesting because it brings up another motif from the story, which are the nettles.

And the nettles is what you were talking about. She has to actually make her brother's, um, brother a shirt, each brother a shirt. So that's 11 shirts. Mm-hmm. Um. With nettles and they, they stung her fingers. She had these beautiful white soft fingers 'cause she never did any labor, but the nettles actually stung her fingers.

And there's something in the nettles that's poisoned. So if it goes into your skin, it's even more painful. So with this motif, some of, we can see the pain is also is about purifying. There are a lot of religions, and I'm not saying I really support this type of spiritual practice. I, I don't. Where you do something painful to purge your body of some, some poison, you know, spiritual poison that you need to get out and you find that that's the only way to do it.

But if we wanna tie together his childhood and the motif he's using here, he's using the nettles in the story as as the pain that he felt when he was a child. And it could be the pain that we feel in different situations where we're not heard or we. We're not given permission to do something we really want.

Mm-hmm. But if we use that as, you know, that I, I love challenges. Excuse me. I love, um, the negatives and fairytales seen as a challenge. So we use the nettle in this story as a way to purge anything inside us that is negative or not healthy or not positive for the people around us. Then we have this beautiful combination of purging and the silence where you're getting absolute focus, and that's what Elisa or Eliza does absolute focus on what she needs to do and which is to save her brothers to turn it back into to humans.

[00:24:07] Vanessa: Yeah, I mean, I don't know about many other religions with the, the pain, but I do know about the, the, I guess monks or, um, sometimes I guess priests would, uh, what is it called? Flag flagellate. What was Ululation? Ululation. Ululation where they kick themselves on the back to. Right. Um. Simulate the act of Jesus being abused prior to him being hung on the cross.

And I guess it was to, the intention was to bring them their heart and soul closer to that of Jesus and his suffering. Um, so, and, and I we saw this as well when we talked about, um, the other Anderson. Story. The girl who trod on a loaf. How? Right Anderson. In his stories really likes to prolong his protagonist's suffering.

Right. And when the, his, so the, the, uh, girl in this story in, or Inga, did we, did we say Inga or did we say anger? It's too from Let's go, I think. Yeah. Okay. Ingo went under. The swamp and she, um, basically became stone and she was crawled on by all manners of toads and snakes and insects, and she was unable to move, unable to close her eyes, and she was underneath the ground.

Hearing people talk about her in horrific ways for years, upon years, upon years. And she's in this like state of suffering for so long. And so we see this as a theme in his stories. And maybe this is not just a theme for particularly Anderson. This is prob, this is a theme that we see, we do see in folktales and other fairytales as well.

But Anderson seems to really draw them out. 

[00:26:02] Donna: Oh yeah, he makes it kind of painful, which is why his fairytales are so long. I think other fairytales are shorter. Maybe it would be as painful if they were longer, but they're not, you know, they, they wanted to get cut right to the chase. Right. 

Water as a Symbol in Fairytales

[00:26:14] Donna: But, but you're bringing up another really important motif and his stories and another fairytales, which is water.

You know, the girls who, who tried on a loaf, she went under the water and she's looking up, and so she's seeing life from underneath, but in the water, which is also. It can be considered purifying. And I was looking for other fairytales where water was really important. We talked, I think we did dance to the 12 dancing princesses.

Have we already done that one? 

[00:26:41] Vanessa: Uh, you did it as your first one with, uh, a different person. But maybe you and I can come back and do that one again because, um, that was actually one of my very favorite fairytales as a kid. 

[00:26:54] Donna: Well, that's really interesting and okay, so, and, and also I've done it recently because that's part of our journal.

I added that one in because I love that story so much as well. There's water in that one. In this story, they have to cross an ocean, so they go from one kingdom to another, so they're crossing water. And the 12 dancing princes is they cross the lake with the princes. And I was looking for other instances in fairytales where the water is very important because a lot of time in fairytales, it's the wood.

You go into the wood and it's a paradigm shift. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And also bodies of water is, so there's um, and you'll see for the readers that download this first. Sort of trial chapter. There's the hut in the forest where a woodcutter goes into the forest and then there's a, a lake that he has to cross, and he's rewarded by going from one end of the, the lake to another.

He is rewarded with a lot of riches in a new kingdom. And there's the bamboo cutter in the moon child where he also goes across water, and he, he is blessed. He has many blessings on the other side of it. 

The Importance of Water in Fairy Tales

[00:27:55] Donna: So water is a very important motif in this story and in many others. 

[00:28:00] Vanessa: Remind me why. Okay, so re remind me why they had to be on that part of, um, the river or was it an ocean?

Why did they have to be on that part? 

[00:28:13] Donna: Ocean, I think a big body of water. 

The Journey and Transformation of the Swans

[00:28:14] Donna: Well, they were, their kingdom was on one side with the evil stepmother and they had to fly to a different kingdom. What is it be away from her? To be away from her. Yeah. And there was only one island in the middle where they all had to land.

It was a teeny tiny island, and it was only enough for the 11 swans, but then they had to make it big enough for their sister. So there were 12 of them there. But yeah, they had to be far away. 

[00:28:38] Vanessa: Okay. 

[00:28:38] Donna: And they all weren't allowed to be near their sister, so they had to take her with them. 

[00:28:43] Vanessa: And they couldn't fly at night because they were actually, they would turn into, uh, boys during the evening.

So they had to be Exactly, they had to be on land by sunset. Sunset, 

[00:28:57] Donna: exactly. Sunset. They turned into humans. They had to find somewhere to land or they would plop into the ocean and die. Yes. So she could see them flying around to Swans during the day, and that's when she did her, that's where she was making the shirts, and she never had a chance to tell them either.

So they had to guess why she was silent and had blood running down her fingers, making the shirts from them, and they were smart enough to figure it out. 

[00:29:21] Vanessa: Right. Yes. And they, and they, they trusted her. Right. Um, so you are saying that the water was a sign of purification of all of the, the siblings or of the brothers, or who specifically do you think I.

[00:29:37] Donna: Well, I think it's in general, it's a sign of purification, so they have to cross this body of water, water and land in it, but they don't land in the water, which I find very interesting. They, they're surrounded by water, so the water is purification. But I think if you go. Into the water, just like the girl who tried on a a loaf and she was immobilized.

Mm-hmm. There's something about being in the water that's different than being above the water and crossing the water. So in most fairytales, just like in the 12 dancing princesses, they crossed the water out a boat. Being rode across very safely on a boat. But whenever someone, the the new, and this has to do with the newest version of the Wild Swans.

Also, when someone goes into the water, either they're transformed, which happens in the new version of the Wild Swans. Mm-hmm. Or. They're immobilized or they drown, and maybe they'll be resuscitated later, but it's not a good sign to get in the water. You have to cross the water. Mm-hmm. So it's seen as purification, but also a challenge.

Mm-hmm. It's hard to be pure. It's hard to be pure. Is it not? Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. For all of us. And I, I didn't even think about that before and since I'm mentioning this, I do wanna mention that the newest version is absolutely beautiful and it's called, um, Juliet Marielle's Trilogy, the Seven Waters, and that she is a trilogy.

The first one daughter of the Forest is based on the Wild Swan and other fairytales, and then there are two more that are absolutely beautiful. She's a gorgeous writer, so I really. Recommend her highly. 

[00:31:11] Vanessa: Yes. And I, and I, um, I've heard of another recently written auth, uh, book that was just called Wild Swans.

I'm not sure who the author was, but I think there are quite a few literary works that are, um, based off of this. Oh, the story that the Wild Swans was that I was just talking about. Focuses in on the brother whose shirt is not finished and has a, an arm that is a, a wing 

[00:31:38] Donna: and so it, right, right, right. 

[00:31:40] Vanessa: And it kind of explores what his life would be like, um, to have a wing as an arm rather than as a, a full human.

[00:31:49] Donna: Well, I love that you brought it up because man, we are sinking because I was gonna mention him as well. The seventh, the, the 11th brother, she didn't have time to finish that one arm in the sleeve, and so he was turned back into human with the swans wing, as you just said. And in this version by Juliet Mariel.

Um, he is, it's insinuated you never meet her, but it's insinuated because he's still part swan. He has a love and we know that swan's mate for life. And so it's very hard for him to go back into the human world because he is now, he has a wife we could say, who's a swan. 

Symbolism of Swans in Various Cultures

[00:32:23] Donna: And having said that, I think it's really important to delve into the deeper meaning of swans because it's not as if they were turned into raccoons.

They weren't turned into, you know. Dinosaurs. They were turned into swines. Swans have this sort of, 

[00:32:39] Vanessa: you said swines, not pigs. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Swans. 

[00:32:45] Donna: Swans. All right, so swans. If we look into deeper meanings, they can be seen as, you know, purity and grace. They have the insinuation of transformation, which literally happens in the story, but it's basically going from the limitations of ego into one spiritual power, which I love.

Hmm. There's, they're often seen as spiritual awakening, divine connection. There's the balance in harmony. Mm-hmm. Embracing inner beauty, which I find fascinating. First of all, because the father did not recognize the daughter. She, he didn't even recognize his, his inner connection to her, because there was none, and because swans are beautiful, but the whole idea is to change them back into humans.

Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of different things. I think that it adds to the fascination of the story. The brothers being turned into swans, beautiful, graceful creatures. 

[00:33:36] Vanessa: Mm-hmm. Well, um, I found a few things that were interesting about Swans, um, in this symbolism in Russian folklore, magical Swan Geese act as messengers between worlds.

Interesting. So it links them to wisdom and guidance. And then also in Norse mythology as well. Um, Valkyrie Warrior maidens of Odin were said to wear swan cloaks, allowing them to transform into swans and move between worlds. And so there's, there seems to be a lot of mythology. 

Greek Mythology and the Swan Connection

[00:34:06] Vanessa: And then also of course, you, you think about, um, Greek mythology, there's a lot of swans, uh, stories that have to do with, doesn't, um, Zeus, uh, have relations with someone, uh, with the swan and then gives, and she gives birth to someone.

There's, there's some Greeks mythologies around swans. Do you, I'm gonna have to look. 

[00:34:31] Donna: Zeus turning, and I'm looking this up really quickly because we're supposed to know these things. We haven't been through technology in a, in a while. And 

[00:34:39] Vanessa: I thought right before we came on, man, what was that story? Um, but also since you're bringing up, you know, inner beauty.

Hans Kristen Anderson is also, uh, famous for writing the Ugly Duckling and once again 

[00:34:52] Donna: Oh, beautiful. Yeah. 

[00:34:54] Vanessa: Once again, this I think also really resonated with him because one of the reasons he was made fun of by his classmates was because he was gangly. He had a large nose, he had large ears, and, and he was just made fun of a lot for not being attractive.

And so, um, that was. I think a story that really resonated with him because he felt ugly as a child and Yeah. And, you know, grew up to be a famous, revered author. Uh, and so he kind of had his own transformation into his own, uh, swan. 

[00:35:33] Donna: Right. And, and, okay. So, and just to satisfy your retelling of the Greek myth, um, yes.

Zeus did turn into a swan because he was trying to hide his, his affair with Lita Spartan queen from his wife. Her, you know, she, he really made, he, he really made her work for Fidelity, which he never gave her. He never gave her, but that's when he turned into a swan. Yeah. 

[00:35:54] Vanessa: Then he has relations with who.

[00:35:57] Donna: Lida Lida or Leida, who is the Spart? A Spartan queen. 

[00:36:01] Vanessa: And she, she give, she gives birth to someone. 

[00:36:04] Donna: Oh my goodness. All just gimme 'em another minute. 

[00:36:07] Vanessa: She gives birth to someone who's, who is the God, 

[00:36:11] Donna: um, Lida and the swan through art transfer and, right. So this is, okay, I've, let me just see, um, see if I can find it.

She's ah, she ultimately felt pregnant and gave birth to two eggs. And those they twins. And just tell me the names of them. Reus, 

[00:36:28] Vanessa: reus, reus and Ramez. 

[00:36:30] Donna: Is it right? No, no, no, no, no. That's, no, no, no. Sorry. Sorry. That's another story we have to talk about. It's okay. Poll and his twin sister Helen of Troy. Okay.

Helen of Troy. Okay. So that's a really good reason for not to commit adultery because. We know what happened with Helen of Troy too. Beautiful. Too beautiful for words. 

[00:36:50] Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. 

Arthurian Legends and the Role of Morgana

[00:36:52] Vanessa: Can we go back a little bit to the water because I wanted to bring in, um, an element that is not in all of the stories, and I don't think it was in the story that you told, but it was in the story that I originally read when I was doing research where it talked about the fairy that.

Originally, uh, speaks with, um, Elisa and gives her berries and kind of like keeps her from starving to death. And then also is the fairy who comes to her in her dreams and tells her how she can rescue her, her brothers, and how she's able to do this. And. In the story that I read, she's referenced as Morana and so Morana is interesting 

[00:37:36] Donna: And King Arthur tradition.

[00:37:38] Vanessa: Yes. Yeah, Morgan, LA and Right. There's also an element in the story where. Okay, so in the dream, uh, she is, morana is in a, uh, castle, and, and she's there with morana in this, in this castle. And then when the swans are carrying. Elisa over the water, they see this floating castle in the water, and the brothers tell her that that is the castle, that no man is ever allowed to, uh, walk in.

And it's, it's a forbidden place. And that's also interesting because it also ties in with Morgan Lafe because there's a straight. Straight of Messina between Italy and Sicily. That is referred to as Fa Morgana, which is how Italians say Morgan Lafe. And it is the strip that causes this mirage. And it was.

Associated with sailors dying because they would see all these mirage and so they associated it with, um, sirens. And so, but a lot of people would attribute this area as Avalon, where Morgan La Flay was said to live. And where she has is was said to have taken King Arthur to, um, be, uh, rejuvenated after he was fatally wounded.

And so there's all these like, it, that's a really bizarre tie in, and I'm really unclear as to how this straight, uh, became named for Morgan Lafe. Like, I'm not sure what the, the order of operations happened, like what, what, what was named first. Um, and so, but that, that tie in with the, the floating fairies is what people are said to see in this, um, Italian mirage.

[00:39:31] Donna: Oh my goodness. That was the most amazing rundown, Vanessa, of different, of different tie-ins and different, um, myths and fairytales. And I love it because Morgana is, is, is usually seen as very evil and she is portrayed as evil in most of the stories. And yet we know there's always another side to how a woman really is.

And that's why there's this version of Ccy, which I absolutely love. I have to find the author. But you, I, the Madeline. 

[00:39:56] Vanessa: The Madeline, um, what is her last name? Yeah, she, she wrote the, the retelling of it and she wrote, sends. 

[00:40:05] Donna: That's right. And you see the other side of Searcy and this's, absolutely beautiful.

But you were mentioning the sirens and we're supposed to, you know, men are supposed to keep away from the women who are calling them men. You might be seduced into, you know, um, death virtually. And there's, uh, with Odysseus and Calypso, and he's stranded on her island and she keeps 'em captive and turns all of his mennet pigs except for him and seduces him.

And he finally falls for her. But. He's stranded on an island with her. So there's a lot of these danger messages in fairytales about women don't go near powerful women because they will seduce you and you'll lose basically either your life or um, your freedom. And so in this one also, it's interesting that you found aversion with her in it, where the stepmother is really the one who caused all of the evil to happen.

And it was Morgana in this version who was helping. Um, how do you say the curse? Um, turn the curse around. 

[00:41:03] Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah. Turn the curse around. Yeah. And she, and she, that's a better way to say that. Go. We'll figure it 

[00:41:08] Donna: out. 

[00:41:09] Vanessa: So she kind of acts as a fairy godmother in this story. 

[00:41:12] Donna: Yes. Which I love because again, we're seeing another side of, of what is usually termed as the evil woman in the story.

[00:41:21] Vanessa: Interesting. I have never, I, so I haven't actually read that many Arthurian tales, but, um, I have, I had never heard of her as being evil. I heard of her being Anant. Oh really? And kind of, um, you know, magical, but not necessarily evil. But like I said, I, I'm not that well versed in the Arthurian legends. So, um, I, I think that that might be one that we need to explore a little bit more.

'cause the Arthurian legends are really fascinating. 

[00:41:50] Donna: Yes, I did a lot of reading on them. When I was younger. I used to send away from, from New York to England, and at that time they didn't, we didn't have internet. I mean, I'm, I'm older than you Vanessa, so we had to send away for books. There was nothing online that we could find.

And I was just fascinated by Arthur and the round table. But she was always the one that brought the round table down, that cracked the round table. And, um. Seduced lamps, Alot, and made Genevieve very jealous. And Arthur finally found out everything. Anyway, she was the cause of the cracking of the round table, but interesting.

Yeah, we'll explore that. Another thing we need to explore a little more. So what more about the, the wild swans did you wanna talk about? 

Historical Context and Variations of the Wild Swans

[00:42:30] Vanessa: I wanted to talk a little bit about the historical context because you mentioned in the very beginning that there are different versions of the story. Um, and Hans Christian Anderson is.

Thought to have gotten this story, um, from a, uh, a Denmark folk tale called the 11 Brothers, uh, which I could not access, I could not find that version. But then you also mentioned The Six Swans by the Grim Brothers, and it's a very similar story. Except for a few elements. For one thing, the king is lost and basically manipulated into marrying a witch, and so he hides his six children away from this witch, who is now his wife.

So he marries her with just because he's manipulated into it. And so he's, he keeps her, his children. Secreted away, and then she eventually finds the children and turns them into a swan and turns them into swan. Except for the daughter who is, um, because of her purity or her beauty, she's, uh, she doesn't, uh, doesn't turn into it.

And then she, instead of being stung by nettles, they use as star flowers, but it requires six years of silence. I don't know. Did Hans Christin Anderson ever talk about the time period in which it takes her to make these shirts? 

[00:43:56] Donna: To make the time. No, he doesn't talk about, um, no specific time period. No, but it's, it's a series.

It's over at least a year. At least a year. 

[00:44:04] Vanessa: Okay. 

[00:44:05] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:44:05] Vanessa: Yeah. So in, in the Grims Brothers, it's six years. It takes her six years to make all of these shirts in which she has to remain silent for the entire time. Um, and then, uh, and then she is accused, oh, she marries. The, the prince who comes to, to rescue her, um, in, in the grim version.

So she does actually, even though she's voiceless, she marries this king and she has children, but her mother-in-law is the evil one in this story. Um, her mother-in-law takes her children and accuses her of being a witch and, uh, eating her own children. And so, uh, it, and so eventually, um, after she's able to speak, they find her children, they're alive and well.

They've been hidden away by a servant in the woods. Um, and so I. And she's able to, uh, explain her story. And so that's the Grims version of the story. Now, if you ever read the Grims brother stories, they're extremely short. Like they're like a page, maybe a page and a half long at most. Like some of my stories in my grim books, they're like just a paragraph, like two paragraphs.

They're very, very short. So it's really interesting that Anderson is able to like take so much and just like accept. Span upon these, these tales. 

[00:45:32] Donna: Well, what I also love, I mean I just happen to love the number 12 and there's a reason for it. There's so much symbolism about the 12. So when the grim brothers turn into six, or when other stories turn it into fewer than 12, you know, there there are the 11 swans in the daughter, which is 12.

I mean, we have 12 in so many different places in our world. They're the 12 apostles in the Bible, the of Jesus. They're the 12 foundational stones of the new Jerusalem. Um, we have. Let's see the 12 steps in alcohol's anonymous, which is fascinating. There's 12 in so many different ways. Maybe our readers could add more ways that they see 12 because it's such an important number.

So I have problems. I don't have problems as much with versions, but I have problems with changing the number. Well, there are different numbers. 

[00:46:19] Vanessa: There's like, there's 11, there's seven, and then I think there's 12. There's the main numbers that we see in the different stories. Um, there's another one that is accredited to a Latin version of the Seven Stages of Rome, and it's called Swan Children.

So this one I think might be the oldest one that I found. So Hans Cen is writing in the 18 hundreds, I think 18. 23, somewhere around there. Um, this Latin version that I found is from 1190, and I just have to wonder if this story isn't even older than this because it was so prevalent in so many different places.

You know, we talked about, um, the, the blacksmith and the devil. Being the oldest fairytale that we know of, but I'm, I could not find an actual date for how old this story goes back, but this one seems to be the oldest and it goes, it's very similar, um, except for the king meets a Swan Maiden, kind of like Zeus.

Stood in the story that we heard. And then, um, the Swan Maiden, uh, they fall in love and she gives birth to eps SEPs with golden chains. Wow. Um. And then, uh, but the golden chains are what keep them as humans. And if you remove their chains, they become swans because, so I guess this way that Swan Maiden can transform kind of like a silky might or, um, she seems to be a shapeshifter.

And so the children are shapeshifters. And there's also another evil, evil mother-in-law. Watch those evil mother-in-laws, right? She steals the babies. She swaps them with puppies. Um, and so, uh, the, the king punishes his, his wife, um, and buries her in the ground for seven years. I, I think her head's above the ground, not really clear.

And then the servants, the servant steals the boys' chains and he, he, he's been told to have them transformed into a goblet, but the, whoever he takes them to is unable to trans like. To melt them down because they're magical in nature. And so the goldsmith returns, the undamaged chains, um, and they, the boys are then restored, uh, into, uh, human form except for the one boy who the goldsmiths actually damaged the chain.

And so he has to remain a swan, uh, forever. And then some people might know of the swan tail, which I'm not gonna go into, but they think that this. Story is the precursor to the swan tail, um, that is then also pretty famous. 

[00:49:17] Donna: Wow. I really, fairytales used to be much more gory than they are now. Um, whether that's good or bad, we've talked about before, um, maybe children need to understand a little gore.

I don't know. I don't know if that helps them or not. We, we really need to do a lot more thinking about that. Well, I think that we've, I mean, I didn't explore some of the, um, the specifics of wild swamps, but I think we did pretty well. I mean, hence Christian Addison really. Um. 

Hans Christian Andersen's Influence and Beliefs

[00:49:44] Donna: He had a very interesting perspective of children and what, and he had a very strong sense of justice and injustice and brought these out in different ways in his stories.

[00:49:52] Vanessa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I, I think that's true. I, I do want to say that I, I, in the beginning you said that he was a very strong Christian and I found contradictory information about that because although he seems to really jam those moral lessons into his stories and seem to have some sort of Christian under.

Underpinnings or overarching themes. It was said that he actually didn't go to church and he was criticized by Minnie for his unorthodox Christian beliefs and that they, he was not as adamant or as. Stringent as many in his time period. So I think he was actually less so than what was current in the society is what I understood it to say.

He has like these, uh, documents that like where he's having arguments with people who were talking about how what he believes doesn't make him a Christian. 

[00:50:54] Donna: Right, and I will only say that, and I'm sure you, you believe it too. It's just really important that you've said, um, what society, how society saw him.

But I believe that it doesn't take going to church or to synagogue or to any sort of temple to be religious and have very strong beliefs. And it seems like he really did have very clear principles and morals and added them into the story and used Christian vocabulary and may have felt. That he was deeply Christian.

Um, I think he was deeply spiritual and going to a church was not necessary for him. And I have, um, over, I mean, overwhelming respect for that. So 

[00:51:29] Vanessa: yeah. Excellent point. Yeah, for sure. 

[00:51:31] Donna: Yeah, it's just, it's triggering for me. I mean, I, I was growing, I brought up Jewish, I have of spirituality from all different religions and mm-hmm.

And thinkings and mysticism, but Christian vocabulary still is a bit triggering for me. Mm-hmm. Although. I do have respect for someone who has very strong morals and, and finds it necessary to use whatever vocabulary we've grown up to and means something to us. So. Mm-hmm. Having said that, you know, go whatever you need to do.

[00:51:58] Vanessa: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Conclusion and Listener Engagement

[00:51:59] Vanessa: So, um, I think that this has been a fantastic conversation and, um, we'll have to talk about what story we're gonna do next, but we would love to hear from our listeners. About what their thoughts were when reading this Wild Swans, did it really speak to you or did you think that it was the wildest wide of your right of your life, like I did?

Did you, um, enjoy it or did you find it too weird for words? Uh, did you, did you catch the symbolism or did the symbolism speak to you? I would love to hear, uh, what our audience thinks and what stories they want us to delve into next, because now. You know, with us doing this journal, I kind of, uh, like thinking about it, you know, 'cause we're, we're trying to put it in a way that is applicable for people today, not just historically.

[00:52:53] Donna: Exactly. Yeah. We want, we wanna share our love of how, um, these fairytales have added and, and enhanced our lives and how they can add and enhance your lives too. So. This has been a wonderful discussion, Vanessa. I've really, really loved it as usual, and I can't wait to hear, get some feedback from our listeners.

We always do. And, um, we'll let you know. We're gonna put a link in the show notes as to where you can get this first chapter from our journal and let us know what you think. 

All right. Thanks so much. All right, so Vanessa. 

Yeah. Your closing words as usual. Go for it, Vanessa. 

[00:53:26] Vanessa: Oh, uh, closing words. Oh, that's right.

Um, what do I say? What do I normally say? It's been, it's been two months since we did this. Uh, keep the fairy tales alive. 

[00:53:37] Donna: There you go. There you go. Beautiful. Thanks everyone. See you soon. 

[00:53:43] Vanessa: Bye-Bye.