Fairy Tale Flip Ep 16: Persephone and Hades: Love, Power, or Possession?

Ep 16: Persephone and Hades: Love, Power, or Possession?

Persephone and Hades, love story or horror story? That is the question we ask in Fairytale Flip episode 16. Is the ancient Greek myth of these gods a myth about romance or captivity? The story, although often used to explain the different seasons, is about so much more than how spring and winter came to be. We explore controversial themes of abduction, power and marriage, the empowerment of women in modern retellings, and the intersection of myth and cultural memory. We discuss the traditional interpretations with a modern lens, highlighting issues of consent, identity, agency, grief and trauma. Through our discussion, we urge listeners to rethink familiar tales, and how their past messages hold different meanings today.

Persephone and Hades Story
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01:23 Summary of Persephone and Hades Myth

05:24 Analyzing the Myth: Romance or Abduction?

07:07 Modern Retellings and Feminine Power

21:38 Power Dynamics in the Myth

27:56 Addressing the Past and Moving Forward

28:18 The Role of Retellings in Modern Times

28:40 Abuse and Dominance in Fairy Tales

29:33 Rumpelstiltskin and Persephone: A Comparative Analysis

33:57 The Duality of Persephone's Existence

34:50 Exploring Shadow Work and Healing

40:08 The Significance of the Pomegranate

46:17 Mythic Memory and Historical Events

48:41 Respecting Boundaries and Autonomy

56:19 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans

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Transcript

Persephone and Hades Fairy Tale Flip

Introduction and Host Backgrounds

[00:00:05] Vanessa Rogers: Yay. Welcome, welcome to Fairytale Flip. I am Vanessa y Rogers. I am the hostess of a podcast called A Fabric of Folklore. And I don't know if, if my listeners, my listeners have probably noticed, I'm on a little bit of a hiatus. I haven't put out, uh, an interview episodes besides these fairytale Flip episodes, um, just because I want to focus on some projects, uh, that I'm.

Really excited about just like the PO project that Donna and I are working on. We'll mention it in just a second, but my cohost is Donna Lee Fields, and she also has a podcast that's also on hiatus. Um, but she runs a, uh, a website called Scaffolding Magic, which. Provides education resources for teachers and educators of all different levels.

So that's definitely a fantastic, uh, resource for educators as well. And her podcast is all about education. 

Episode Delay and Current Excitement

[00:01:01] Vanessa Rogers: Um, and we come together once a month, although we're kind of mid month right now, we meant to have this episode in April. But my floors, uh, my entire house was upside down because I was having re flooring and, uh, Donna was having.

Things happening at her house. We just kept pushing it. Now we're in May. So, um, uh, but we're really excited about today's episode. 

Summary of Persephone and Hades Myth

[00:01:23] Vanessa Rogers: We're gonna be talking about the abduction of Persephone. It's the story of, uh, romance. Some people, especially contemporary authors, uh, retell it in a romantic way. But it's the story of, uh, Persephone in Haiti's marriage or abduction.

And so Donna, I think, is going to give us a summary of the, the story and then we're gonna dive into it. 

[00:01:54] Donna Fields: Yeah. Thank you Vanessa. You always do such a great job of introducing everything, so thank you about that. And, and I just wanna mention that, um, for people who are seeing this, it's not very hot here.

I'm in Mexico and. Um, but it's been called in the house, so I'm wearing the scarf, so I'm probably gonna be playing with it a bit. Um, which I'm very 

[00:02:09] Vanessa Rogers: jealous of because we are having like record highs here in Texas that keep sending out heat advisory stay inside. We're hitting, we're hitting like the highest record recorded temperature in Texas ever, uh, this week.

So I'm jealous. 

[00:02:25] Donna Fields: Crazy. Okay. But we're both really excited about this episode. This was supposed to be our Easter episode, and as Vanessa says, you know, you know, things happened, things happened. So let me just give a really quick summary of Persephone and Hades, and as Vanessa was saying, some of the conversation, a lot of it actually is going to be about.

Um, what, what we do, Vanessa and I do, is about subliminal messaging and about, uh, looking underneath the belly of the story and finding out what's really going on down there and what the messages are. The girls and boys who hear these stories over and over again are really getting, so let me get the, the summary For those of you who haven't heard Persephone in Hades myth, uh, recently, and it's a Greek legend.

Hades, who's the god of the underworld? And Vanessa's gonna tell us a little bit about the underworld. Um, was abducted by he, he abducted Persephone, who's the daughter of Demeter. She's the goddess of agriculture, fertility, and the harvest. And that's very important in the story. So he abducts her because he fell in love with her and wants to marry her.

Persephone is in the field with her companions, collecting flowers, having a beautiful day, and Hades catches sight of her and, um, comes up and. Kidnaps her. Basically, nobody really knows what's happened. Demeter finds out that her daughter isn't above, isn't anywhere. She keeps looking for her, and everybody lies to Demeter.

No one tells her the truth. Although what's actually happened is Zeus and Hades had a plan. Hades has fallen in love with Persephone. He asked Zeus for to marry her. Zeus says, go ahead, but I can't really give you, you know, don't tell the meter because she won't let you. When Deme can't find her daughter, she wanders around the earth, distraught everything, and the earth starts dying.

Everything turns, turns brown, and there's no harvest anywhere. People start dying. So then Zeus has to say, you know what? We need to negotiate this. All the humans are dying, which for Zeus means nobody is worshiping me. Mm-hmm. So he sends Hermes down to the underworld. Hermes finds out that in the meantime, Persephone has eaten only.

Only six pomegranate seed, sometimes three, sometimes nine, depending on where in the world the myth is being told. And so in the end, to make a long story short, in the end, Persephone has to live with Hades for six months of the year. Or three or nine, and the other time she spends with her mother. So whenever Persephone is down below in the underworld with Hades, the earth is barren and cold with snow in some parts of the world.

Um, and when Persephone is with the meter, then everything is glor, you know, is, is wonderful and glorious, and life is good for the humans. So that's the story in a nutshell. So yes, yes. Where do we start, Vanessa? 

[00:05:18] Vanessa Rogers: Well, tell me why you like this story. 

[00:05:22] Donna Fields: Well, that's a really interesting question. 

Analyzing the Myth: Romance or Abduction?

[00:05:24] Donna Fields: You always ask me this question and I, or do you like it?

Maybe you don't even like it. Well, the interesting thing is, I thought about it. I used to love this story. Absolutely love it. Why? Because it was seemingly romantic story about a beautiful girl who is fiercely desired by a man, a powerful man, a king of the land. He takes her. And you know, she sort of pretends not to like him.

And then after a while it seems like maybe she does. And so it seems like the perfect romantic story. Now, as a, an older woman, as an educator, I realize that this is exactly what is permeating our children's minds. This idea that a capture, a kidnap, a kidnapping, and let's just say a rape is, can be romantic.

It is not romantic at all. And that's what I'd really love to explore in our conversation today, among other things. Mm-hmm. And so the question is, do you like it? Did you like it? Has it changed? 

[00:06:21] Vanessa Rogers: Um, yes, I do like it. I, you know, it's very jarring, uh, when you hear the story originally, because, you know, Hades comes out from the earth and is golden tear, and he abducts, uh, Persephone, and he, he forcibly takes her down into the earth, which is unpleasant to hear about, right?

This is not a story, uh. That is a romantic story and especially our contemporary eyes, right? This is, this is, um, a violation. It is, uh, a kidnapping. This is, um, so in, in that. Aspect, I don't, but I, I really like the, the different threads, the different themes and the symbology that we're gonna go into, uh, behind it.

Modern Retellings and Feminine Power

[00:07:07] Vanessa Rogers: And I think that one of the reasons that this story continues to permeate our, uh, modern audiences is because, uh, because there's a spin on it now. Modern authors are spinning it so that. PERS has more, uh, feminine power. She regains her, her agency and her choice in the retellings. And so, um, there's a, there's a lot of that in our spread out in our modern, uh, contemporary, uh, stories.

Um, so the, the themes that I really grasped onto was the blending of the love loss power in those eternal cycles of life and with life and death. Um, so I'll, I'll just run into to love real quick. And we were talking about the romantic love and how, uh, a lot of the modern tellings really, uh. Exemplify the bad boy, the opposite of tracks, and they, they, they hone in on that beauty and the beast.

The Hades is dark and death and Persephone is light and life and coming together. The two symbolize a fusion of mortality and renewal of darkness and light together. And so we see the trope over and over in lots of different stories as well. The bad boy and the good girl, and together they make a, a better, uh, fusion.

Right? And it, it also mirrors the cycles of nature and human experience, love, loss and return separation and reunion. But in the original telling, the focus was really on the motherly love because the meter is, uh, really driving the narrative in the story. I. She is her profound love. Her daughter drives the, uh, famine that is.

Happening all across the world and really forces zeus's hand to relent and say, oh, well maybe Persephone can come back. And so, um, I, I, I really think that it's interesting how in modern retellings we focus on the romance. But in, in old tellings and ancient tellings, I think the focus was really on that mother daughter love.

I. 

[00:09:43] Donna Fields: Well, I think that's really important, Vanessa. I really love how you always see the po the positive side of a story. And I need, it's interesting that you sort of, um, went to the, the ra, the, the branch of beauty and the beast, because if we're gonna go, I, I completely agree with you, a demeanor and Persephone and that love, um, thread is very important.

If we're gonna go to love in the underworld between Hades and Persephone, it's really important that we consider, um, and I'm gonna go through a couple of fairytales that have similar themes, but in the Beauty and the Beast, for instance, it is about love. It's about the girl's love towards this man who, um, is not proud of himself, who's, who's pretty violent, not to her so much, but he's violent in nature.

And the message that girls are getting about this is that if you love him enough. He'll turn into a handsome prince. And even if he's, he's angry or dangerous, all you need to do is love him more. And if he doesn't turn into this, you know, charming prince, then it's your fault. And so I'm wondering if we can apply that to Persephone in Hades.

Hades doesn't change. There's no trans, there's no transition in his personality in the story. So I'm wondering how you feel about that. 

[00:10:57] Vanessa Rogers: Yes. Um, that is a very interesting point. I. It is interesting. You, you know, we were talking a little bit about, we were gonna talk a little bit about the end of world and Hades being conflated with the devil.

In, in our Western lens, uh, we often have a a Christian lens point. Um, and a lot of people talk about Hades as if he is the same as the devil, but Hades is not the same of the as the devil at all. He is just the god of the end of world. There are three brothers. Zeus is the god of the heavens. Uh. Per Poseidon is the God of the seas, and Hades is the God of the end of world, and none of them have a morality sticker on them.

Just because Hades is under, under the ground, under the dealing with the dead does not make him the punisher. He, he's not a tormenter, as is seen in in Christian, uh, lenses. With, with the devil. Um, he is however very strict and, uh, unrelenting. And when people pray to him, it doesn't seem to sway him at all.

So he does have, um, the darkness to him because he deals in death all day and he rarely ever comes up. To the light of the earth, but he isn't necessarily, uh, bad in his, his godness, right? He's just, that is just his realm. And so I would say that the, the darkness, obviously abducting a girl is. Falls in the morality of negative, of, of evil, but that is the realm of Gods, right?

All of the gods don't seem to really see, uh, that as, as negative, right? They, they seem to think that they can do anything they want, and that is what all of the gods basically do all of the time. Uh, there's this really interesting moment that I was gonna mention later when talking about demeanor's grief, but.

I, I, it just came up for me. Um, so in Deme story, there's a lot in this story that really, uh. Is about demeanor. So in her grief journey, she ends up becoming a nanny for a mortal family, and she disguises herself as a immortal. So they don't know who she is, but she's just so grif strict, gr grief stricken.

She doesn't know what to do with herself, and she's taking care of this young child, and she decides she really loves him and she wants to make him immortal. And so she starts secretly throwing him in the fire. Right. And she's, she's doing this to immortalize him. But one, at one point, the mother of this baby walks in and she freaks out.

And Deme has no sympathy for this woman. She's like, I am trying to make your son an an immortal. Why do you, uh, why are you yelling at me? But of course, this mortal woman had no idea that she was a goddess. She has no idea. What Deme is attempting to do, all she's doing, um, all she sees is that her child is in the fire.

So of course she's going to, to, uh, have that reaction. But even Deme, who is a mother, doesn't seem to have empathy for this woman. Um, and so I, I, I just, I feel like when it comes to the gods, their boundaries of what they can and cannot do, they don't have those boundaries. They just feel like they can do whatever they want.

Um, and so, uh, all of that to say, um, I, I hear what you're saying about, uh, women being. Subliminally given this message, or even consciously given this message, that all you have to do is, uh, rough out the edges and help a man become a better man, and then you can have a, a, a great romance. You know, I don't know.

I, it's, it, it's not a story that we definitely want to, to tell women that that is how you, you get a man, um. But I do think there is some truth to it, right? Because bachelor's on their own, they can have some rough edges. And so when a woman comes in it, it can help balance that, that the, uh, the sharpness.

I don't know if that answers your question at all. I kind of went off on a tangent. Um. Oh, shoot. 

[00:15:48] Donna Fields: Um, no, it's just that it's, what you're saying is almost exactly what the point is, is that you're, and I don't think you mean to do this consciously, but you're forgiving the man for his sharp edges. And this is what fairytales and the myths do.

I mean, we're supposed to feel sorry for Hades and the one hand. He didn't have the choice to be the king and the god of the underworld. He was given it because Zeus and Poseidon chose first and he just took what was left. And he didn't really want the underworld, he was forced to. So right from the beginning, we can feel sorry for Hades for getting, you know, the, the short, a short straw.

But that's no reason to capture a girl, um, and take her to where your, your hideout is, to where you're, you're living. I know you know that Vanessa, it's, but it's, and, and I'm not 

[00:16:33] Vanessa Rogers: forgiving him. I'm just saying that it is. His expectation, right? What is his expectation of what can he and cannot can he not do?

And his expectation is he can do whatever he wants because he's a God, 

[00:16:47] Donna Fields: right? So our point, what we're doing is show that this is normalized. It's a normalization of the man, not just in the Greekness, because they're gods. But in fairytales as well, there's a normalization of the men in the fairytales being the dominant, the dom, the being dominant, and the women being the victims.

Yes. And it seems as though that's what's expected and it's still happening today. Women are getting. In most countries, less, they're getting paid less in any job they're taking. Um, they're trained to listen to men if they're, they're told to do something that, I know this is gonna sound, um, a little generalized and I know it is, but for instance, I grew up in a household by a pretty liberal woman who made sure that the three daughters cleaned the house and our brother could go in his room and listen to music.

That's how I grew up with that sort of mentality is, oh, my job is to be busy all the time. My brother. Can do whatever he wants. You know, he is sort of walks on water and that's what the fairytales also teach us. Yeah, I remember I was fascinated by fairytales. And I grew up sort of inculcated with us this idea that the, the princess was the victim, that she really didn't have any power and it was the prince's job to save her.

Mm-hmm. So we see in this Greek myth, the Greek myths we need to acknowledge is not the same as the Grimm's fairytales and the other fairytales that we're reading most of the time. But what you and I are doing is to highlight some of the unfortunate subliminal messages that we may be getting so that.

Our listeners can pass on some of these messages. 

[00:18:21] Vanessa Rogers: And I, and I agree with you and I, and I think in the, in the original telling the love story is not between Hades and, and for Stephanie necessarily. It's, it's primarily through, uh, the, the daughter, mother relationship. I think in the, throughout the story, later on in other stories with Hades and per they, they do seem to, um.

Uh, they do seem to be an actual couple who, like each other of, of sorts. He respects her, her, what she tells him to do. Um, a lot of times people come to Persephone, not, uh, Hades, and she, um, is able to, uh, direct things that happen in the underworld. So she has, um, an, an equal power it seems, in, in the underworld.

Um, but I, I. I don't see the ancient story as a love story as much as the retellings of this story, as more of the the romantic love story. I. 

[00:19:24] Donna Fields: Okay, so what's really important, what you're, what I hear you saying is that the retelling for you is more important, and I completely agree because we're retelling it in a way where the woman has more power.

Yes. Unfortunately, those retellings are not as popular, say the Disney versions and the original version versions and the Disney versions are really just sort of, um, color coded. Um. Messages in the same sense that, for instance, let's take Snow White. Let's just take the, the story of Snow White. Okay? Now, in the Disney version, you have this beautiful young girl who is poisoned, and so she's absolutely ageless.

And when the prince finally comes to find her, he's, he's captivated by her beauty, doesn't know anything about her, doesn't know she has a nice personality, doesn't know she's healthy, doesn't know if, um. She's pleasant to be with. All he says he thinks is, oh, she's beautiful. So in the Disney version, she's also covered by this beautiful glass co, you know, protector and the dwarfs in the Disney movie.

See this? Powerful Prince and he is, he's wealthy prince. He comes up on this beautiful white horse and they say, ah, sure, we'll let him go into the glass. We'll open it up for him. And so he forces himself on her, presses his lips to her, and she wakes up. So what is the message the girls are getting? It's okay for a boy to press his lips on my lips.

That's okay. In society. She doesn't give her consent. She wakes up beautiful and happy. The birds sing, everybody's, you know, celebrating. That's the message we're vetting. So when you're talking about the new telling of Persephone in Hades, the Persephone is just as much power as Hades. In the original version, we don't know that.

There are a couple of stories where she does have authority, a couple of them, but for the most part, she is a beautiful girl. Who is kidnapped because of her beauty and not because of her personality or intelligence or anything like that. And the man has dominated Zeus, who is a man and the king of the land, the king of the universe has agreed that she can be kidnapped, basically.

Mm-hmm. So her and her authority, her agency has been taken away from her. Is she really happy down there? Maybe she's just making the most of it in the end. Mm-hmm. Been kidnapped and we have to remember that. 

[00:21:37] Vanessa Rogers: Yeah. Yeah. 

Power Dynamics in the Myth

[00:21:38] Vanessa Rogers: And you, you bring up a really interesting point. This is one of the topics that I was gonna talk about is the power dynamics and how, uh, much the power dynamics, uh, change.

And so to start off in the story, the power. Is held by Zeus and Hades the gods, right? That is who holds the power. And the women in the story at this point are powerless per seny and Demeter. Both don't have any cons. They don't, they have not even been told what was gonna happen. Uh, they, they, it just happened to them.

And so demeanor, uh, whether or not she does it consciously or unconsciously, her grief causes the entire world to go barren. And she, through her grief, starts to force the hand of Zeus. And so in this instance, she becomes the one with the power. And so she's able to come to the table and negotiate because Zeus has, she has something that Zeus wants, right?

If all the humans die, there was no one who can worship him. And so. At that point, the meter has the power and then, uh, per seny, the stories change. De de depending on if she was tricked. In some versions and some versions, it's her choice to eat the pomegranate seeds, but once to eat the pomegranate seeds.

Her power dynamic changes as well, because she, uh, transitions into the queen of the end of world, whether or not she. It's her choice or not. She becomes someone, she moves from maiden to queen and becomes incredibly powerful. She's not as powerful as the men. She's not as powerful as Hades or Zeus, but she definitely gains power in the story.

So I really thought that that was interesting how there was that changing of power throughout the story. I. 

[00:23:38] Donna Fields: Well, I think it's completely valid that you bring up the point that Dita really did, did, did find her power in just, you know, negating, um, her, her gifts. And that's really important and I have to go back to the fact that she, for seny, you're seeing is she gains power once she's down there.

But we can't forget that she was kidnapped. And what I really want our listeners to focus on is that in many of the fairytales, it's the girl who accepts a position. Of, you know, quote unquote authority after she's been abused. So let's just go through a couple of fairytales and I, and I want your feedback on this.

Okay. So, for instance, um. In, in an earlier version, let's just keep the snow white for a second. And one of the earlier versions by Ian Batista, basil and, and an Italian, um, fairytale gatherer. The princess is not kept in a, in a glass, um, cage, but rather in a hut, and a king finds her. Now the king is already married, so not only does he cheat on his wife.

He actually rapes the girl in her sleep, impregnates her. She has twins in her sleep. She wakes up while she's in birth, while she's giving birth to these twins. The wife, the queen, finds out about this girl gets one of her servants to take the children and cook them and serve them to the king. The king is furious.

He burns his wife, go, gets, goes to, gets the girl. She comes into the castle and marries the king, and they live quote unquote happily ever after. Now that happily ever after is what's so bothersome. Yeah, the king has, has committed adultery, has killed his wife, has eaten the, his own children, and now they're living happily ever after.

So what, tell me how we can, you know, sort of, uh, wash that one away. 

[00:25:24] Vanessa Rogers: Yeah, I mean, I think that it's also important to remember that in the times that these were written, it was behaviorally, uh, societally. Norm normal, not that it necessarily should have been acceptable because it, it shouldn't have ever been acceptable, but it was something that was seen.

And these stories are a way to explore the tension through the societal lens. So we talk about, um, the marriage right in, in, in our. Current, uh, culture. We see marriage as a union between two loving individuals who want to go on a path together. They want to do life together, right? It is a choice made between two individuals to come together in, in a loving union.

But marriage was not that in in the past, right? Marriage was a transfer, a transaction. It was an arrangement between families. It was not romantic. It was just two families coming together and saying, this is how we can better our families. And so this abduction, this abduction that we see is symbolic of what?

The Greeks in particular would have been able, would have seen in, uh, in their, their day, and so. I don't agree with those, that element of the story. Obviously I would not want Snow White to go live with her rapist and have a happily ever after because I don't think you can have a happily ever after, uh, in, in those instances.

Um, but it was a way of exploring and that tension that existed in their. Societal structure that they, they saw. And so I think that these stories aren't necessarily, so if, you know, maybe when they're, they're, I don't know who is writing, they're mostly written by men, right? Um, and so it is normal in these, the eyes of some of these men for this to happen.

But it also is, is begging the question. 

Addressing the Past and Moving Forward

[00:27:56] Vanessa Rogers: Not necessarily, I don't know, in the, in the snow white one, but is this okay? Right? Is, is how do we resolve this in a way, um, that makes this any better? Because we can't go in the past. We can't back up and, and, and redo it. So how do we move forward from this?

[00:28:17] Donna Fields: Okay. 

The Role of Retellings in Modern Times

[00:28:18] Donna Fields: Um, well, the obvious way to, to. Get away from, you know, sort of eliminate the patterns of the past is to do, as you're saying, the retelling. That's one important way to do it. However, as I mentioned before, the retellings are not as popular as the old versions, and mostly because the old versions are reflecting what's still going on in the world.

Abuse and Dominance in Fairy Tales

[00:28:40] Donna Fields: There is still abuse, there is still rape. Mm-hmm. There's still dominance of men over women. Mm-hmm. Um, and what we need to do is exactly what you and I are doing, is to highlight these points so that mm-hmm. Even if children are reading the old versions, they're getting the different messages. So for instance, in Waldorf schools, storytelling is the basis of their education.

Mm-hmm. And a lot of people think, and they're reading the Grims versions. Mm-hmm. And a lot of people will say, well, how can you read the Grims versions, which are bloody and worry and very. Okay. They show all the abuse to the little children, and then Waldorf teachers will say, we're prepared for that because we're going to read it, and then we talk about it afterwards.

Mm-hmm. So one of our missions, you and I, is that we're talking about the abuse and. You know, I agree with what you're saying and yet the fairytales are filled with the dominance of men and we need to look at it. 

Rumpelstiltskin and Persephone: A Comparative Analysis

[00:29:33] Donna Fields: You and I explored Rumpel Still skin, so what do you remember about our discussion of Rumpel Still Skin?

It was, it was involved. What? How can I have made a certain connection between Remu still skin and Persephone Hades? Do you see the connection? 

[00:29:49] Vanessa Rogers: Oh, well, yes. Uh, because the princess ends up marrying her captor, right? He, he forces her to, to, uh. What is it? Spin hay. Spin hay into gold. And then, then he, he marries her after threatening her life.

And so yes, that union is, is not gonna be a, a happy one necessarily, right? But in the end, it's based upon, and it's based upon a, a violent action. I don't know if he ever actually was violent towards her, but the emotional and verbal abuse was there. 

[00:30:29] Donna Fields: The emo. So first she's threatened by her father. She has to marry the king.

She has to, so she's abused by her father, then she's abused by the king because he wants more gold, you know? Um. Woven into a thread, and then she's abused by this little magical creature. And so she's abused from all angles and the And the king. Yes. He abuses her. He tells her, I'm going to kill you if you don't weave more straw thread, um, into gold.

And the rumble still skin threatens her baby. I mean, she's threatened from all sides. And in the end, she's happy with the king after being threatened for most of her life. Mm-hmm. We need to really look at that. 

[00:31:05] Vanessa Rogers: Yeah. 

[00:31:06] Donna Fields: Mm-hmm. So in retelling, of course, you know, in retelling the girl is actually the heroine and she saves rumple still skin, and they have a child together, but still they have a child together in the retelling and she's happy with rumple, still skin in the retelling, and yet she was abused by Rumpel still skin.

So I'm getting very emotional about this because I want us to remember that the happier ever after thing, the happily Ever After is written there by men who wrote, who Wew wrote these stories and, and took them down. 

[00:31:35] Vanessa Rogers: But I do think that it is important to note that it these stories, like for instance, the Demeter's grief and her rage, it created a space to have this critique of the abduction, of her lack of consent, and it was.

It was in, in part a way for the ancient Greeks to explore the tension and resolve it in a way that upheld their existing social order. So the marriage held, because that was the agreement that was already agreed upon between Zeus and Hades, but there was a compromise. She was allowed to. Be with her mother for half of the year during the springtime and, uh, had to go back into the end of world in the fall.

And so it was a way in, in some ways it was a, a way to explore this common practice that was not necessary. It was not something that mothers and daughters wanted to endure, and yet they had to. 

[00:32:41] Donna Fields: And yet they had to, so I, I, you know, I'm coming back to it again. She's basically in prison for part of her life in the underworld, because in my view, she didn't, she doesn't have a choice.

Zeus has ordered her that she has to spend part of their time in the underworld. And so that's just showing girls that. You, you do what you're told and you accept it. All right. I've made my point. You understand it. We both. Um, but there's something interesting because I read about, um, the underworld. You have some things and then there's sort of symbolism about the underworld that I really liked that she's sort of, oh, because I did wanna say, you know, now.

The, the modern depictions of Hades, the images, if you do a Google search for images and look for Hades, he's now this sort of romantically dark figure. And that's what we wanna really look at. Is he or is he just a kidnapper? Anyway, you make the decision about the dark. We do need dark places because in the dark, that's where the seeds grow.

And in the dark, that's where we can sleep and regenerate. So that's one way of looking at this. Um, darkness is good for us. The balance between light and darkness is also something that I can sort of get on board with a little bit, if that's your choice. Yeah. 

[00:33:57] Vanessa Rogers: Okay. 

The Duality of Persephone's Existence

[00:33:57] Vanessa Rogers: So talking about that, this is a story that a lot of trauma survivors really gravitate towards, and there's the reason that this is a story that they, they feel echoes their own experience, is that internal duality.

There's several elements, but I'm gonna get to what you were just saying. Um, there's this, the split existence of Persephone's life that is divided between her two worlds, right? She's the goddess of the underworld and also, uh, she's the goddess of spring and fertility. I. On the surface, her public self, she's appearing joyful and strong, but in the underworld, her private self, she's carrying pain and grief.

So this double life really resonates with people who've experienced trouble, who have to, they feel the need to mask their pain and present a composed exterior to the outside world. Um, and so. 

Exploring Shadow Work and Healing

[00:34:50] Vanessa Rogers: The, I dunno if you came across the, the terminology shadow work, but I believe Carl Young is the one who, uh, coined the term, at least I keep finding quotes when I look up shadow work about, um, from Carl Young, and he says, until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.

And so, uh, the, those wounded parts of yourself, um, where you pa hold the pain, the grief, the rage that are, uh, part of your psyche, and when you. Hide those wounded parts, uh, it holds you back. So in shadow work, it's embracing that darkness and bringing it to the light so that both your light and darkness can come together and heal and integrate into a whole.

Person. And so basically shadow work is for anyone who dares to ask the question, what am I hiding from myself? And so a lot of people see this story. Of Persephone, uh, having this dual existence, uh, between the underworld and the earth as being a story that they really resonate with and can, uh, use to explore their own grief.

And I don't know, I think I mentioned her on our podcast before, uh, Sabrina Fletcher, I believe the episode was 39, and she helps women. Who is, who have to, uh, have a medical, uh, abortion because of a, a medical reason. And she holds grief circles for that specific group. And she uses the story of, for Stephanie Demeanor and Hades to explore that grief as well.

And so I, I, I, I see it as a tool, uh, to talk through these. Strong emotions. 

[00:37:01] Donna Fields: Interesting because you're sort of reminding me that part of what's going on. Oh, well, one on. Uh, in the past, I don't know if they're still doing the illusion mysteries. Did you research that at all? Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. The illusion mysteries, it's, you know, it is actually, it was so secret.

We still, people, experts still don't know what was actually done in the, in the rituals, but it was celebrating the rejuvenation of life and it was. The, the sort of undertone was that Persephone willingly goes to the underworld because it's a really important time of rest and rejuvenation for the land, for the people.

Um, and so it was sort of a, a manifestation of, of that dynamic that we experience on earth. What have you researched on the illusion mysteries? 

[00:37:43] Vanessa Rogers: I mean, I watched a couple of videos about the illusion mysteries, but like you said, there's so much mystery behind it because it was, there wasn't a whole lot recorded, just the demeanor and, and Persephone were at the head of it, and there were a lot of sacred ceremonies around it.

Um, and that it, it guided the souls into an eternal life of, um. Joy basically. And there there used to be a lot of festivals that were a part of it as well. And I think just, um. They, they don't have as, I don't, I don't know if there are any, I think there are a few still that happen, but they used to be much more widespread and now they, they don't exist as much, but there are people, at one point we were talking about how the Greek mythologies not really, uh, worshiped anymore.

And I, I came across some people who actually do work in. That they, they have spiritual beliefs in the Greek mythology. So I, um, I didn't do a deep dive into that, but I, I wanted to, to correct myself that there are still people who use the Greek mythology for spiritual practices. 

[00:39:01] Donna Fields: Okay. And, and I'm gonna go somewhere there because, um, you know, that I believe in, and my spirituality goes into life on other planets and that sort of thing.

And so if you're into life on other planets and, and. A completely different history of the world than what we're told in school. Is that the original, um, terrestrials, I would say, or they're not terrestrials because they came off earth, the original, um, people who lived on the earth. Were actually the Greek gods, in other words, the Greek gods are based on the original people who populated the Earth and who sort of set up the system that we now live under.

So when people are still worshiping the Greek gods, I think, and it's very possible what they're doing is worshiping the actual beings from other planets who came down on Earth and set up the system that we now know of. Hmm. I know that sounds very out there, so let me, let me save myself a little bit, although I'm not embarrassed about it at all.

I think we need to really widen our minds and think about so many other possibilities than what we are taught in school or on the me in the media because it's just too limiting. 

The Significance of the Pomegranate

[00:40:08] Donna Fields: So, um, you and I were saying that we both researched a little bit the symbolism of the pomegranate, and that's really important because the pomegranate.

Some say those who say that Persephone willingly went down to Hades, they also say that she willingly and knowingly ate the pomegranate because the pomegranate is a symbol of fertility in almost every culture, and so she purposefully ate the pomegranate seed so that she would have to stay in the underworld at least for a certain amount of time, and that it would bring her a sort of fertility and and prosper prosperity in her relationship.

[00:40:44] Vanessa Rogers: Mm. 

[00:40:45] Donna Fields: What do you have about the pomegranate? I, 

[00:40:47] Vanessa Rogers: so I didn't do a whole lot of research on it, but I did find that the seed symbolizes, and there were so many different things the pomegranate seeds could symbolize, so that's why I didn't do a deep dive into it, uhhuh. But the seeds symbolize a marital contract and the irreversibility of.

Certain choices. So once you make a choice, you are set on a path and you can't go backwards. You can choose another path such as like marriage or adulthood. These, all these different things that we, we choose leads us in certain directions and eating the pomegranates were, um, a, a choice basically. That is 

[00:41:25] Donna Fields: right.

And, and what we need to understand, for some reason I need to research this a little more, is when you eat anywhere, eating is, is apparent. You're ingesting something, it's energy, you're, you're ingesting energy from one source into yourself. And so in Greek, miss and other places as well, eating something.

Is a compromise. You are actually, um, you are promising a certain part of yourself to, with that energy, it is now part of you. And so it didn't have to be the pomegranates, although that's why pomegranates have always been fascinating for me from this myth. Hmm. Um, they are, and, and if you look at it, if you cut open a pomegranate, it's very sensual and it's very, it, it looks like parts of woman's body.

So. Um, so yeah, I, I think it looks like ovaries very much so, and, and, and fruit and vegetables are, um, mirrored on the human body or vice versa. So it makes a lot of sense. So, I, one thing, go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. 

[00:42:21] Vanessa Rogers: I was just gonna say, I wanted to talk a little bit about eating in another realm like you were talking about, but did you have another point?

[00:42:28] Donna Fields: No, no, no. Let's keep going with this. And then I just wanna add another point about 

[00:42:31] Vanessa Rogers: princesses. So that really, uh, struck my accord with me because if you remember, we did a story not around Halloween, about the girl who danced with fairies. And in fairy mythology, if you eat the food offered to you by the fairies, you are, uh, stuck in their world.

And so I. I, I saw the parallel between this, this story with Persephone eating pomegranate seeds and, uh, a human girl eating fairy food. And so I was curious if this was in other mythologies. And it is, it's, it's across mythologies globally. It's found in Celtic mythology, mes ottonian mythology, obviously the Greek mythology, uh, even in Japan.

And so we, we, we find this motif. That warns against violating boundaries and represent, and it represents the transformative and irreversibility of nature when you make a certain choice. So, um, it is a moral or lesson in a way I. To, uh, prevent people's curiosity so that you don't violate, uh, boundaries.

And once you accept the food that is given to you, it implies either submission or indebtedness. To those who are giving it to you, and it's makes a 

[00:43:54] Donna Fields: lot of sense. Yeah. And 

[00:43:55] Vanessa Rogers: it, and it, the eating from another realm, like you said, the energy, it alters your essence. It makes you part of that world. Um, there is a story about a, a Japanese story.

Tofu Zo, I don't know how to say it properly. Um, she's a spirit that offers tofu to humans, and when you eat it, it either causes illness or misfortune or it can bind you to the spirit world. Um, and so it's, it's very interesting how this concept of eating food in the world that you are not from, uh, can really connect you and keep you.

Uh. In that place. 

[00:44:38] Donna Fields: Yeah. I absolutely love that. Vanessa, thank you so much for finding that and sharing that because I am a deep believer and the, the whole cliche of you are what you eat is so true. If you really see food as energy, and I say prayers every morning, I used to say before every meal and then I was too hungry.

I just wanted to eat. But I say prayers every morning to the food around me. For thanking it, for merging with my life energy because it is life, it is energy that is merging with my energy and it's really important for us. I think this is another great lesson that you and I can share with our listeners.

It's really important that our, that the girls and boys listening to these stories see this as a lesson. It's really important to think about what we're putting in our mouths and, you know, you go and get, um, all sorts of manifestations of sugar and put it into your body. It is going to affect you. Um, these, these restaurants that are so popular are have really tasty foods.

Why Every time I taste something that's incredibly tasty that I didn't make, I know there's probably sugar in it or a lot of oil and prob, a lot of other processing that shouldn't be in my body a long way. Excuse me. First of all, going on and off, off of this, but a long way of saying it's a great way of explaining to our, our listeners and our readers.

Persephone ate some poms. She either did it knowingly or unknowingly that had huge consequences for it. Just as whatever we put into our bodies have consequences, either positive or negative. 

[00:46:12] Vanessa Rogers: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:12] Donna Fields: Right. 

[00:46:14] Vanessa Rogers: So another, go ahead. No, please. 

Mythic Memory and Historical Events

[00:46:17] Vanessa Rogers: I was just gonna say that, um, another thing that I really wanted to touch on real quick is the mythic memory.

Um, and this is not something that a lot of people have talked about, but it. I started researching it because I was, it made me curious when Deme goes for months and months, because pers is down there for quite a long time and, and the world becomes so barren and there's a, a great famine that hits the, the, the earth.

And she's kind of just hiding out, and it's the worst that the world has ever seen. And it made me wonder, is this a story that's really ruminating on a past event that could, um, have actually occurred that they're, they're building it into that story. And we see this time and time again. One of the most common stories that people are familiar with is Noah's arc.

The catastrophic floods. Noah's Ark is not just found in the Bible, it's founded in Gilgamesh and many other traditions across, uh, mythologies. And it is believed that there, there was a flood that occurred that really wiped out much of the earth, or at least a, you know, good portion of the people who were telling the stories.

Um, and it is not, these myths aren't necessarily literally true, but they're encoded with truth that the people of the time felt was important to pass on to future generations. And so there was a time period, um, it was a potential. Climate crisis that happened during the younger Dries period, which occurred 12,900 years ago to 11,000 years ago, near the last ice age when the, there was a period of warming and there was a um, there was a return, a sudden return to near glacial, much colder conditions that affected the Northern Hemisphere.

That is potentially a time period a, an event that this story could have been recording. 

[00:48:25] Donna Fields: I love that, Vanessa. I think that's really, really important. And we have talked about other fairytales where there is mythic memory. Is that what you're calling it? Yeah. Mythic memory. Yeah. I love it. I think it's absolutely true.

Um, it's, it's about society talking about itself and yes, the memory, the history. 

Respecting Boundaries and Autonomy

[00:48:41] Donna Fields: So what I would love to do is, what we usually do is sort of wrap up what our, our favorite themes in the, in this tale are, or the message that we wanna give. And if you would permit me yet, what I would like to share. Is the message that I think is the most important in this story and.

That is, it's the importance of respecting boundaries and respecting the autonomy of others, because I feel that that was not given to Persephone and is, except in the retellings. And it's really important that we share that with our, our students, our children. And it reminds us that every action has a ripple effect.

So Hades decided that he wanted something, didn't give the other person permission to decide, and that an effective, you know, sort of. Raising the earth, you know, and it was only fixed because. Zeus, as I was saying before, was sort of miss being worshiped. Mm-hmm. And what I think is also really important, I used to wonder why these little books where you, the princess books where you take out a princess and you clothe and the rest of the pages are just all frilly pink things that you put on the princess.

I couldn't, I didn't realize why that bothered me to the core. And a lot of it is because as I was doing the research for this program, for our, for this session, between you and me. It's Disney has found such a market. It is one of the growing, the, the largest growing markets in the world, the princess market, and that's to show how if you're beautiful and you have pretty clothes and if you're promised pretty clothes and being taken care of by having.

More pretty close. Then you need to take any abuse or disrespect and go for it. So I know, I know that sounds very dramatic, but it's so true in so many of these fairytales. So that's the message I would like to propagate in this session is that please help our little girls and little boys realize that just the, the superficial.

The, the, the beauty is not what we need to go for and asking permission to touch and to, and sort of involve ourselves in someone, someone else's life is the world we want. Mm-hmm. How's that? 

[00:50:52] Vanessa Rogers: Yeah. Oh, well, you know, I think if you, I don't know if you've seen any modern Disney movies, but, um, Moana, Raya, uh, what's the other Tangled, there's a lot of tellings of stories that are very female empowering, so I think that they have moved away from that.

Although your point is very well taken. The, the classics are still there, and they, um. There's, they're still integral to, mm-hmm. To the Disney storytelling. Um, I did want to talk a little bit about, uh, you know, the history because there was a, um, an older tale that this tale is believed to be based off of.

[00:51:35] Donna Fields: Did you find that? I didn't, I didn't look for that. I was so wrapped up in the whole rape book. Yeah. 

[00:51:42] Vanessa Rogers: Um, so it's a Sumerian tale and it, it's earliest text date back to 1900, 1600 BC. To 1600 bc, which would be about 300, 3,800 years old. Um, and it's called Ana's Distant. And so basically what happens is there are two goddesses.

One is Ana, she's the goddess of the heavens, and then her sister. You rush. Rego is the queen of the underworld, but she's only the un queen of the underworld because she's kidnapped by a primeval dragon who forces her down into the underworld, and she becomes the, the ruler of the underworld against her will.

Um, so that's that, that connection. And then the, the next connection, the, the seasonal changes of Persephone, um, that is. It tied to the story, um, is a little bit more convoluted, but Inana, the queen of the heavens, decides to come down to visit her sister. It seems that she's kind of, kind of trying to ur her sister.

It's a little unclear, but a rushal is not having it. She does not want her, her sister, taking her throne, and so she requires her sister to, to, to strip her of all of her clothing. Um, as she's passing through the seven gates to the underworld, and then she has her, her sister murdered. Um, and then her, her sister is revived and.

The, the deal that this struck that is that in order for Iana to be able to go back to the heavens, she has to have a substitute in her place. And so she searches for someone to be the substitute, and she learns that her lover is not mourning her. He's not wearing morning clothing, he's still having a good time.

So he choose, she chooses her lover. To be the substitute in, in the underworld while she goes back into the heavens. But, um, uh, it, another deal is struck and is a, he's allowed to come up into earth, um, and for half of the year. So while he is gone, while he's absent, that is when grain is stored underground.

While he's under the earth. Everything, uh, is dormant. And when he returns to the heavens is when you plant and, uh, harvest. And so that element of the story also ties in nicely with, uh, the explanation of how the seasons, uh, were created. Right. Because I think, I don't really know if we mentioned that the whole concept of this, I, this story is a, it is an explanation of how the seasons came to be.

We talked 

[00:54:33] Donna Fields: about it a little bit just, but I know you, you wanted to share a lot of information about the symbolism of seasons. We're gonna, let's try to find another fairytale where we can use all that information and talk about it another time. 'cause we're almost to our limit. So if, if you wouldn't mind, tell me what your closing messages about this story.

[00:54:51] Vanessa Rogers: Well, I, I do like, um, that there's a cultural, we in our, in our own contemporary viewpoint, have. A cultural shift from the time period of when the Greeks, uh, wrote this. And I like that there's a lot of, um, stories that are being written that really, uh, change the elements that we don't like. The lack of consent, the desire for agency, um, the empowerment and the giving of her own identity that's not necessarily connected, uh, to Hades.

Um, and so. I like that this story is being retold to, uh, empower Persephone in ways that we want to see for our own daughters and for our ourselves. And, and I, I think that, um. That element is why the story continues to be told. Because although, you know, the start of the Greek myth is very disturbing, we can retell it in ways that are empowering for future generations.

Ooh, nice. Nice one. Okay. 

[00:56:16] Donna Fields: Very nice. Okay, so. 

Closing Thoughts and Future Plans

[00:56:19] Donna Fields: Um, you do the ending. You always do the ending. So, well, Vanessa, what, how would you like to lead our listeners to our next? 

[00:56:26] Vanessa Rogers: So, uh, you know, we, we had talked about what we're gonna do, uh, for next month. What did we decide was our next story that we're gonna be diving into?

[00:56:36] Donna Fields: Did we, I think we decided, but it's, it's, um, buried in a lot of messages we sent back and forth. 

[00:56:41] Vanessa Rogers: Okay. Well, we'll, we have a story that we, we've picked out and we will be coming back with you. It's, it's a, it's a great one. We were both excited about it and, um, we're still deep in the making of our, uh, journal that explores, uh, all, uh, uh, many of these stories that, that we've been talking about and.

Down in the link of both of our podcast, you'll be able to find a free, a free example. And if you download it, you can come back to us and tell us what you like and what you don't like, so that when we have the final copy of the journal, uh, you'll have a say in the structure of this daily journal that we are creating for our fairytale flip at, uh.

Audience members. So we're really excited about that project. We're excited. So definitely get the link down below and let us know what your thoughts are and how we can structure it so that it works best for you. So thanks so much for joining us on this fairytale flip episode. Until next time, keep the fairytales alive.

Thank you. Bye.