Fairy Tale Flip Ep 17: The Mythology of Sedna, The Inuit Sea Goddess of the Arctic

You may have heard of Poseidon, the Greek god of the seas—but have you heard of Sedna, the Inuit sea goddess of marine life? In this episode, we dive into the mythological story of the mermaid-like goddess who is transformed from a young woman into a powerful deity without hands.

We discuss the story’s various versions and cultural significance, as well as Sedna’s role as steward of the natural world. Themes of betrayal, sacrifice, and empowerment are explored throughout.

We also look at the history of the Inuit people—including how they came to inhabit four separate countries—along with other creation myths, the role of challenges in stories, and the journey of Inuit souls.

Don’t miss this fascinating discussion.

Timestamps

00:00 Welcome to Fairytale Flip
00:50 Introduction to Sedna's Creation Myth
01:42 Diving into the Story of Sedna
03:48 Exploring Variants of Sedna's Tale
09:14 Understanding Inuit Culture and Migration
16:22 The Role of Women in Inuit Society
25:58 Sedna's Transformation and Symbolism
27:46 The Role of Villains in Transformation
28:16 The Importance of Challenges in Stories
29:01 Symbolism in Myths and Legends
29:45 The Journey of the Soul in Mythology
33:07 Betrayal and Sacrifice in Folklore
35:20 Depictions of Sedna in Inuit Mythology
38:19 Sedna's Underwater World and Its Guardians
40:15 The Significance of Loneliness and Isolation
43:47 Sedna in Modern Contexts
45:45 Creation Myths Across Cultures
50:13 Takeaways and Reflections on Mythology
52:20 Looking Ahead: Exploring New Cultures
53:46 Conclusion and Listener Engagement

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Transcript

Welcome to Fairytale Flip

[00:00:05] Vanessa Y Rogers: Well, welcome. Welcome to Fairytale Flip. I am Vanessa y Rogers, hostess of Fabric of Folklore, a podcast where I talk about the ins and outs of all sorts of different folklore stories, fairytales, folk stories, mythology, and uh, my co-host is Donnel Fields from Scaffolding Magic. And she has an incredible educational website that has lots and lots of resources for educators.

Um, and she has her own podcast, uh, which, which is on hiatus, but has lots and lots of episodes to listen to all about education. And we come together once a month to discuss one fairytale or, um, recently we've been doing some mythology as well. 

Introduction to Sedna's Creation Myth

[00:00:50] Vanessa Y Rogers: Today we're actually gonna be delving into the creation myth of Sedna from the Inuit, uh, community, um, from the Arctic Circle peoples.

Uh, and so, uh, Donna is going to give us a, a brief intro into that story so we have an understanding of the story we're gonna talk about for this, the goddess of the sea. 

[00:01:12] Donna Lee Fields: Wonderful. Thank you so much always for your great introductions. Vanessa is so exciting to be here and we were saying just briefly before we started, this is a really interesting tale.

It has so many different levels, even though it seems really, um, straightforward and it never is. It never is. So I'm gonna read one, and as you said, you really are going to be, um, you, you really wanna talk about the different versions so people aren't confused. But I wanna go into a couple of the, the, the.

Elements of the story that we're gonna talk about. 

Diving into the Story of Sedna

[00:01:42] Donna Lee Fields: So really quickly, um, Sedna was a beautiful Inuit woman, but she was also very skilled and intelligent. That's very important to know because it has a lot to do with the Inuit culture. Edna's father raised her alone and wanted her to marry so that she didn't, he didn't have to take care of her anymore.

She didn't wanna marry any of the men. He brought her. She was a little prideful, so he took her to an island and left her there until she changed her mind. A man came to the island, very handsome man, and said he was a hunter, and so she went with him. But her father soon found out that this man beat her.

So he went to the, where she was living and took her home on the way back. However, the hunter. Who was actually a shapeshifter attacked the boat and the father threw Cigna into the ocean to stop the shapeshifter, who is now a big, ugly bird. So the boat wouldn't sink, so he wouldn't die. He threw her in the ocean.

When Sedna tried to get back into the boat, her father cut off her fingers, and as her fingers fell into the water, they turned into 10 different types of fish. The first fish of the ocean, as Sedna sunk to the bottom of the sea, she found she could breathe under the water, and this is her big transformation, but above the water.

This is still the myth above the water. The Inuits were dying, and so a shaman traveled down to the bottom of the ocean to find out why there was nothing to eat in the sea. He found Sedna whose hair had become all tangled and in it, all the garbage from the, the sea was there and all the fish, all the potential food for the Inuits was in her ta hair.

He convinced her. To let him comb her hair. He gained her trust and as he combed her hair, all the living beings, plus the garbage flew out of her hair. So Sedna told the shaman that as long as people lived in balance with nature, she would release the animals of the sea. But if they abused nature, she withhold their food, their sustenance forever.

Okay, that's the story. 

Exploring Variants of Sedna's Tale

[00:03:48] Vanessa Y Rogers: Well, and I think it's really interesting that you told that version, and I've heard a variant of that version, but not that exact version. So I love that there are so many different versions of this tale, and that's so incredibly interesting. But we, before we got on this, we were talking about, um.

How much we both were enjoying it. Um, so maybe you can tell us what you, what you liked about it and what struck you the most about this story. 

[00:04:17] Donna Lee Fields: Okay. I love it. You always start with a question and now I really love the question. I think, uh, what I really love about this story, I. Is that, first of all, it's about the Inuit culture.

It's not just about beauty, even though it starts with beauty as most fairytales do. The princess is beautiful, but it's very important that she's skilled and that she's intelligent. And also it's a story about transformation. Turning your, um, hardships, your challenges into a transformation, into empowerment.

And that's what we're gonna talk about a lot today. 

[00:04:46] Vanessa Y Rogers: And 

[00:04:46] Donna Lee Fields: so what is it for you? Why did you choose this one? 

[00:04:49] Vanessa Y Rogers: Well, before, before I, uh, go into that, I do wanna just clarify for our listeners. The difference between this story, which is a mytho, mythological story and what we normally do, which is a fairytale.

So usually fairytales are stories that are written by an author. Sometimes. A lot of times actually they're taken from folktales, which are orally, um, passed down from generation to generation. But fairytales generally have an author and we think of them in terms of stories that start off with once upon a time and end and happily ever after.

Whereas mythological stories are quite different in that they are, uh, stories that are, um, part of a society's religion. So if we think about, you know, Donna and I are both from the United States originally. Donna doesn't live there anymore. Um, but. O oftentimes the Bible is often referenced, all the stories within the Bible would be considered mythology by other, uh, cultures, right?

Because they are the story of, um, a religion they, but in a, uh, in the society that holds those stories as truth, um, right. People who. Believe in those stories. Wouldn't call them mythologies themselves, they would call them sacred text or dis 

[00:06:11] Donna Lee Fields: distinction. Vanessa. Nice distinction. Sorry I stepped on you.

They would call, call. No, no, no, it's 

[00:06:15] Vanessa Y Rogers: fine. Folk. 

[00:06:17] Donna Lee Fields: Or what are the two things they might call it? 

[00:06:19] Vanessa Y Rogers: Um, sacred text or the word of God, or they would have different terminology. That demonstrates that that is their religious truth, right? So usually a mythology is the other people's narrative for their religion.

But if it is the narrative for, um, your religion. It would have different terminology. So when we're talking about stories such as sedna, this is a story that is not just a story to those people, right? It is, it is their religious truth. It is something that they, um, have belief in. And so I just wanted to clarify that this is something that we have to be, uh, a little bit more cautious about when, because with fairytales, these are things that people don't actually believe happened, right?

But. In, in religious stories. Um, there's a little bit more being careful about that. 

[00:07:17] Donna Lee Fields: And actually, Vanessa, that's really, really interesting because we have entitled this podcast Sedna the God, the Inuit Goddess, right? And, and actuality, the Inuits don't believe in Gods. They believe that they are living beings, living entities.

And so it's our interpretation that she's a goddess. I don't know necessarily if they would call her a goddess. 

[00:07:37] Vanessa Y Rogers: I don't know either. I mean, um, when I was looking up to her different names, I, it's, uh, really interesting. They have a lot of different names for her. Uh, let me see if I can find those names.

'cause it's, the names are really funny. Um, I'll have to, I'll, I'll have to find those in a little bit. Um. But they, they may not. Um, it might just be the English translation since they have their, their own language as well. Um, I really like the story because I think it's quite unique in that, uh, there aren't a lot of stories that talk about the creation of specifically, uh, the, uh, ocean animals.

A lot of the creation stories that I came across are primarily stories about how the land came into being, or all the animals of the world came into being. But Edna's story is specific to, uh, sea animals because that is so important to the Inuit culture. And this story in particular is, uh, so tied with their environment because the Inuits have such a unique environment that they live in.

It's such a harsh, uh, land where they started off. Um, life was so hard. There was so much starvation. And CNA is seen as basically the giver of life because without sea creatures, they, they are starving to death. Um, so I, I, I really like that element. 

[00:09:13] Donna Lee Fields: Right. 

Understanding Inuit Culture and Migration

[00:09:14] Donna Lee Fields: And actually we should, we really need to sort of define where the Inuits are.

Because I mean, I can, I'm often an ignorant, um, north American and I think, oh, the, the Inwood are only in Alaska, or the, the Inwood are only in Northern Alaska, that sort of thing. But actually the majority, no, excuse me, I. In Greenland, there are 90% Inuits, 90%, although there are more Inuits in Northern Canada and Northern Alaska.

But, and so the, um, less politically correct term is Eskimo, but that to them apparently is an insult. So we call it we, we. As much as often as possible. We say Inuits and just as a pop, a cultural colloquial pop, um, reference. There's a series on Netflix called North of North that I just watched and to know more about the Inuit culture and they talk about cna.

They, she actually comes up in the very first episode. Just a quick reference. Yes. 

[00:10:16] Vanessa Y Rogers: Yes. Um, I do wanna talk about the Inuits because I was also confused about them as well. I was confused. Were all, are all of the indigenous people of Canada and Alaska. Inuits. I, I didn't really understand who they were. Um, so let's talk about that a little bit just to, to clarify.

Um, they cover, uh. The Arctic Circle. So they are in, uh, parts of Alaska, parts of Canada, parts of Greenland, and in Siberia. And um, there was, uh, like you said, we grew up with the terminology of Eskimo, but that was attributed to them from a French, uh, traveler and it meant eater of raw meat. And they determined that their.

Name for their people was, um, Inuit, which means the people, some of the, um, in Alaska, they refer to themselves as in, or Yik. Those are the names that they've given themselves, but they do all see themselves as one people all from Alaska, Canada, Greenland, and Siberia. Um, and they, uh, mostly are around the, the, the seamar areas and they, uh, have very similar ways of life.

They all share similar stories, which means that this story is incredibly old. One of the things I always look into is how old the stories are. They say the story of Sedna is as old as the glaciers, so it's incredibly ancient, uh, the people. Okay, so I was, I was really confused because I saw this migration pattern of the Inuit people and it covered Alaska, Canada, and Greenland.

And I said, okay, but at what point did they go to. Siberia, but it turns out that's entirely the wrong way of thinking about it because they actually came from Siberia. They, in, they, they started out from Siberia about 15 to 20,000 years ago. And back when the Barringer was a landmass, back when there was a land bridge between, uh, Russia and Alaska.

And so the people from Siberia started migrating. Over, uh, across that land bridge. And then, um, the Inuits that we consider today are from the ula, I believe that's how it's referred, um, people, and they started the migration. Downwards and eastward to Greenland. Uh, and that was a really interesting look as well because at this point when they're doing all this migration, they don't have compasses, they don't have maps, they have oral maps.

They're doing this migration using boats that are as small as kayaks. They have these, um, these boats that are made from like whale bones and seal skins. And, uh, they're use, they're reading cloud patterns, they're watching ice flow, mo mo uh, movements. They're watching animal behaviors and wind directions to do all of this migration from, uh, from Alaska through Northern Canada, uh, to Greenland.

Um, and so I found that that migration incredibly interesting and the fact that they still all consider themselves one group is. Really fascinating to me. 

[00:13:55] Donna Lee Fields: Yeah. And the, the little bit of research I did on that is that there were, um, the, the Mongola people were referred to as the tunic people at one point, and the IITs actually taught the, the Tunis, who were much shyer than they were and less, um, evolved.

Apparently. They, they actually taught them a lot of skills to survive, but the Tuit people didn't survive. The Inuit did. And so they did evolve. They, they, you know, went around the A circle, as you were saying, so. 

[00:14:23] Vanessa Y Rogers: In Canada. This is interesting. In Canada, I just thought that all indigenous people in Canada were called First Nations, but that's actually wrong.

There are three separate indigenous groups in Canada. There's the First Nations Metis. I'm not really. It's positive, how to say it? I think it might be French Word. And then there's the Inuit and they're all three different, um, groups. And it's the Inuit, they're considered different because they had different migrations and so they came over at different periods.

The first Americans, um, migrated. From Siberia about 24,000 years ago. In the later migrations, the Inuits, the ancestors of the truly people are believed to arrive in North American, separate later migrations from about 1000 ce, um, or AD depending on what you use. And then they spread across the arctic, displacing or absorbing the earlier paleo Eskimo populations.

Um, okay. Yeah. 

[00:15:23] Donna Lee Fields: Uh, so what I thought then, um, having established that historic foundation, which is really important, um, I thought maybe we could go into some of the Inuit culture. Do you have, uh, the, the little bit I've, uh, researched about the Inuit culture was specifically about women, because I thought that was very important here.

Um, okay. Yeah, 

[00:15:42] Vanessa Y Rogers: let's hear it. I would love to hear that. I didn't actually do a ton of research on their culture. 

[00:15:46] Donna Lee Fields: Okay. So just what I've, what I got is, um. Because we're talking about said none because, and again, we, we wanna filter out the word goddess that Vanessa and her both are gonna use with what she was, um, explaining before that.

They, or what I explained before is that they didn't actually believe she was a goddess. They believe she's a living person. They still believe that she's a, a living being down at the bottom of the ocean. But we're gonna refer to her as goddess because we're fairytale people and we love the word goddess and, you know, princess and witch and all that sort of thing.

So then the, it's the story begins that says Sedna was the perfect Inuit woman, but no man was good enough for her. 

The Role of Women in Inuit Society

[00:16:22] Donna Lee Fields: So I was thinking. What's the perfect Inuit woman? And it's a little different than what maybe a western, uh, profile of the perfect woman is. God only knows what that is, although I have it in my mind.

You know what, men might plaster up on posters in their locker rooms. Sorry about that. So an Inuit woman, she needs, she's crucial for survival. She's good at gathering food and preparing resources. Like the hides from the animals. And this is hard for me because I'm a vegan Vanessa, you can appreciate this.

I was reading, um, sort of a journal of an Inuit of a modern Inuit woman and she was talking, how about she won a lottery and she was able to go out and kill a polar bear. And I thought, holy cow, you win a lottery and you get to kill an animal. But I have to remember that in this culture, in this society, it is really important to be able to hunt animals.

Otherwise you can't survive. They are really far north. So anyway, the other just things about an Inuit woman is that they're, they hold the same role as men. They hold equal influence and power in their societies. They are skilled in a wide range of tasks, including sewing, but men sew, also cooking, childcare and hunting.

And the last thing is women were really respected in the community. However, it is obvious in the story that the father still has control over his daughter and what's important to him is that she marry, go off and create her own life. So that's an important element in this story 

[00:17:50] Vanessa Y Rogers: and I think's important to note that.

Um. Inuits lived in small family units, so they would have, either they would live in their own family unit or they would live with several other families. And so this going off and marrying is important because that is how they would not interbreed, right? They had to. Go to different family grouping so that they weren't like integrating within their own.

Um, so that is, that was really crucial. And also mostly it was the men who did the majority of the hunting. Um, and so if you are living, continuing to live with your family and you're not doing the hunting, then you are starting to become a burden to your family because there's only so much food that goes around.

And so I, it's really important for their, their particular culture to do this mixing of families. Um, before we went into the history, we were gonna talk about the different variants of the story, so I'm gonna talk that about that a little bit. Um. The story that you told was slightly different than the version that I had read, uh, prior, and the one that we are have up on our YouTube channels or our both of our YouTube channels.

Um, but it's very similar. Uh, it is still the bird story, and I think this is actually the most popular story that we, we hear. Um, she marries. A, a stranger and he turns out to be a bird. And the story that I read when he takes her to the island. She arrives and there is a giant nest. And that is how she, she finds out that her husband is not human, that he's actually a, a bird.

Sometimes he's called a a raven, sometimes he's called a fulmar, which is a, an art, a giant Arctic bird. Um, and she's miserable because he had promised her that he would keep her warm and keep her well fed. But all he's bringing her is fish. And she doesn't want fish. She wants seal and whale and. Marine I, she wants, I'm not really sure actually what she wants, because at this point those, those animals don't exist.

But she's unhappy with fish. Um, and she's cold. And so at some point her father. Comes to rescue her and when they're trying to escape, the birdmen start to create a giant, uh, a giant storm with their wings. They're flapping their wings really hard, and all the waves are coming up. And that's when the father decides he just wants you.

He doesn't care about me. I'm throwing you over. Uh, and, and when she won't. When she won't let go of the boat, that's when he chops off her hands and that's when the transformation transformation occurs. So it was slightly different and that one, that one did not, uh, include the shaman version. Um, but I think that it's in a lot of different ones.

Um, there's another, 

[00:20:47] Donna Lee Fields: sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. 

[00:20:49] Vanessa Y Rogers: Oh, I was just gonna go to, onto another variant, so go ahead and ask your question. No, 

[00:20:52] Donna Lee Fields: no, no. What I was just gonna add is that in all of the variants, it's, from what I understand is that it's about the Inuit respect for nature and their belief in the spiritual beyond bond between humans, animals, and natures and nature.

Um, it's all about a reminder to hunt. This is, this, I find really nice. It's a reminder to hunt responsibly and sustainably and again, live in balance with nature. I. Yes. So probably the next version you're gonna talk about is similar, right? 

[00:21:21] Vanessa Y Rogers: Is similar to that one, except for instead of her marrying a raven or a bird, she actually ends up marrying a dog and, uh.

And they have an offspring. It's half of her offspring are humans and half of her offspring are dogs. And at some point she makes a boat in a boot into a boat and sails off her children and the dog. Children become the ancestors of white men. And the human children become the ancestors to the Chip Yan Indians or natives and tribe nearby, which they have a very complex relationship with.

Sometimes it's peaceful, sometimes it's not so peaceful. Um, and so that's interesting that they, those. Her offspring are the creations of other people, and then her father is enraged by this marriage that which she has with this dog man, who's also some sort of a shapeshifter. Once again, he throws her overboard and it chops off her fingers and her severed fingers become the sea animals, and then, then the sinks to the floor and becomes the the goddess and ruler of the sea animals.

Now, my personal favorite is the giant version. Have you come across this one? 

[00:22:39] Donna Lee Fields: No, 

[00:22:41] Vanessa Y Rogers: there's a version where she is a giant and she's ravenous. She's incredibly hungry and she cannot be fed enough, and in fact, she's so hungry. She starts eating her parents, so her parents are actually named in this one. She, her father is in Gutta, who in different stories.

Sometimes he's like a creator God, and sometimes he's an underwater God. And then her, her mother, uh, is I, I'm gonna have to look at the pronunciation in a minute. Um, he, she eats her mother's arms and one of her father's arms before he throws her overboard, once again, he, she clings to the side. She, he drops off her fingers, the animals come about, and she sinks.

She and her mother both sink down. And this one is, uh, mostly found in, in, uh, Greenland. She and her mother both sink down to the underworld. And not only does she become the ruler of the sea animals, but she also becomes the ruler of the underworld in this one. And that's why I really wanted to cover the variance before we talked about a lot of the meanings, because it's in a lot of these versions.

She is, um, the ruler of where the spirits go for, uh, a year of purification. And so she and her mother. Become, uh, the keepers of the, um, underworld spirits under the water. And, okay. And that's, go ahead. Keep, no, keep going, please. Um, and so I wanted to note that this, uh, theme of cannibalism does actually come up quite a bit because if you, uh.

Consider how harsh their living conditions are. So many of their stories include, uh, famine and starvation. And so cannibalism comes in quite a few times. It's considered quite taboo and there's always consequences for cannibalism, and so it's cautionary. They do not want to encourage cannibalism, but there are many stories that include humans resorting to eating other humans.

[00:24:48] Donna Lee Fields: I, wow, I didn't get that at all. What I did wanna comment on is that they believe that there's, um, if they have religion, religious beliefs, they believe there's an underworld and an overworld. But for them, and I think this is fascinating, that the story talks about her going to the underworld. They would rather go to the underworld because the underworld for them is warm and has lots of food and they're taken care of.

Whereas the overworld, if you go up, then it's cold and uh, there's famine. And so it's interesting that you're talking about the, the sort of, um, reproducing the, the concept of famine above. Whereas Westerners, we believe in the hell underneath and the heaven above, if you believe that. So it's the opposite here.

But my question, Vanessa, for you, is that you've read it with your children. Which version did you read with your children? 

[00:25:34] Vanessa Y Rogers: The Raven version. 

[00:25:36] Donna Lee Fields: Okay. Yeah, 

[00:25:37] Vanessa Y Rogers: the Ra, the Raven version where they go out to a. A, a giant nest, and she is not well cared for, and she only eats fish, which my children like. So I, I, uh, they would've been happy with fish, although raw fish, maybe not so much.

[00:25:54] Donna Lee Fields: Yeah. And apparently they still eat raw fish. You know, that's a thing. 

Sedna's Transformation and Symbolism

[00:25:58] Donna Lee Fields: Um, can we, are we ready now to talk about the transformation? Because in each of the, you're talking about the father cuts off her 10 fingers, which I think is so violent. Um, but it's also very significant. So if we get away from the physicality of it, let's talk about the transformational part of it.

Would you like to, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So what does this mean? You know her, she is. You know, my, my thesis was about the witch is the, the big challenge in your life. And if you take, um, the big challenges, the real, the pain in your life, and use them as a way to grow, as a way to transform, then you're doing, basically what we're here to do is, um, become better versions of ourselves.

And that's actually what happens in this story. Edna is abused first. She is, um, disempowered by her father and in this, the version I was reading before, the mother doesn't exist, so it's kind of interesting. In one of your versions, she ate the mother and a lot of the, the 

[00:26:54] Vanessa Y Rogers: mother continues to live without arms.

[00:26:58] Donna Lee Fields: Oh, without arms. Yeah. Okay. And a lot of the fairytales begin with the mother not existing. She dies before the story takes place or dies in the very beginning. In any case, in this story, Saida, um, is abused by the father. She's disempowered. She's not valued for what she really wants. And then she goes, she's left an island isolated.

Um, a hunter comes and finds her. They are, I They live together in an isolated place. Her father comes to get her, but in the boat, he abandons her again and cuts off her fingers. What happens? Her fingers become the sustenance for the rest of the world, for the rest of the Inuits in particular, and she transforms into an incredibly empowered woman.

So let's start there. What do you think about that so far? 

The Role of Villains in Transformation

[00:27:46] Vanessa Y Rogers: Yeah, I, you know, we, we've covered a lot of stories. You know, I'm. Baba Yaga comes to mind, um, in that we see these villainous characters as a a means to the transformation. And really that's the case in just about every story that we read. A lot of times, I'll, I'll start reading a novel.

And I'll be really frustrated when something wrong happens. 

The Importance of Challenges in Stories

[00:28:16] Vanessa Y Rogers: And then I have to remind myself, if nothing went wrong, nothing would happen in the story. Right. And I, I have to remind myself that it would just be a boring story and it would not be realistic because challenges are part of life and that is how we grow and how we become better humans.

But it's so hard. Challenges are so difficult, and so. Obviously without these challenges, we don't transform into the beings that we're meant to be. And so I think that's the case. Yeah, no, 

[00:28:45] Donna Lee Fields: no, very well said. Because we do live in a society where there's contrast. Um, there's gray areas, but there's always a contrast, and we do grow from that if we allow ourselves to see that brighter side of it.

As you're saying, it's not easy, you know, we'd rather, you know, the whole, um. Over the rainbow type world. 

Symbolism in Myths and Legends

[00:29:01] Donna Lee Fields: But what I really love about this, and it just occurred to me, is that she, her fingers are cut off. And so she's essentially doesn't have control. She can't manipulate the things around her very well.

But what happens? A shaman, A shaman sign, like Signi signifying. Um, otherworldly, another dimension comes down and he untangles her hair. And so what my interpretation is, is that when she finally goes deeper in and she's more introspective and finds different dimensions, um, more about herself, then she's able to untangle her past and she's able to contribute to the world in a very positive way.

[00:29:41] Vanessa Y Rogers: Yes. Well, you know, and it's interesting that you mention that because. 

The Journey of the Soul in Mythology

[00:29:45] Vanessa Y Rogers: When the spirits come down to the underworld, that is partially what they are doing in their year round, year long purification. Uh, which, you know, you mentioned that you read that the, so the two different journeys of the soul is to the underworld and then to the land of the moon, and.

I had read that the ad live in was a place that was frozen, oceanic world where it's cold and desolate, and the land of the moon is where it's perpetually light and warm and abundant, which you read the complete opposite. So it, I mean, it's possible that both exist in two different vari variations. Um, but I, I really thought that that was such a really interesting way.

So in the storyline, in, in the, the belief system, um, pe the souls go down to ad livan for the year to kind of decompress, to confront their past actions and. To disavow themselves from their humanness before they can move on to their eternal paradise, before they can go to their ideal afterlife. Uh, where they be, they have their eternal rest, and those souls that are not able to purify, that are holding on, uh, a ata, the father who comes down, um, he becomes a kind of, um.

Punisher, sometimes he is prodding them, sometimes he's pinching them and sometimes he kicks them in the genitals over and over again until they, uh, are able to go through this purification process. Um, but I thought that that was such an interesting, uh. Concept because we do hold onto so many earthly things that I can see how one would think about how you have to go through this process before your, your soul can actually be released from, um, its earthly holdings.

And I, I, I kind of like this, this concept and that idea of, uh, shedding of different things from your past. 

[00:32:01] Donna Lee Fields: Perfect, because what, what, um, I also was thinking about and what I discovered is that the sea in myths is often considered the unconscious, like the woods is about transform the woods is about change.

You go into the woods to face your biggest fear usually, and you come out transformed on the other side of it. The C usually is, signifies the unconsciousness. And what you're saying is about the, the leaving behind the human. Part of yourself is literally getting her fingers cut off. She's leaving behind her human past.

And only then with the salt tears, you know, the salt water, the salt tears, the pain. She's able to find her inner true self. Um, and the Inuits often talk about how taking time away from society, being in proximity to the wild, is the path to finding your true self. And so this is all about. You know, narrowing, coming into finding the core of yourself and again, that you can blossom and, and be empowered.

[00:33:04] Vanessa Y Rogers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Betrayal and Sacrifice in Folklore

[00:33:07] Vanessa Y Rogers: Uh, one interesting, and I I, I wanna ask you about this because one theme that I I came across was, uh, betrayal and Sacrifice. I absolutely see the betrayal, right? The father betrays his daughter. He basically saves himself and sacrifices his daughter. But a lot of times I think of sacrifice as something that you do for something greater, right?

You sacrifice. Um, one of my favorite legends is the sacrifice, the, the legend of the blue bonnet, where an orphan girl from. Uh, I think it was the Comanche tribe gives her only possession, which is her doll that was given to her by her parents to, um, the, uh, to the gods. She burns it. Um, and that is the start of the res and the blue bonnets that come in Texas during the springtime.

And so that's the, the start of, um, the legend of the Blue bonnet. And she, she makes that sacrifice as, uh. For a greater good. It's voluntary, but senna's sacrifice is not voluntary. So I, I don't know that I would consider that a sacrifice so much as like this selfish act of her father. What, what is your thoughts about this?

[00:34:28] Donna Lee Fields: Really interesting question because I would never see this as a sacrifice. He did it as, um, completely selfless, a selfish act. It, it wasn't necessarily the bird said. If you throw your daughter into the ocean, she'll become a goddess and she'll become the savior of your people. No, he didn't say that. He's like, I want to kill that woman, because she escaped from me and the father didn't even negotiate with the bird.

He just decided, I do not want to be drowned in this storm. I'm throwing my daughter over. And he was so adamant about it. He cut off her fingers as she tried to grip the boat. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I completely agree with you. This has nothing to do with the sacrifice. Um, and we could also say in a lot of the fairy tales where the king will sacrifice the princess to save his kingdom, you're still sacrificing a woman, something, you know, flesh and blood, but also a woman who doesn't have a choice in the matter, 

[00:35:16] Vanessa Y Rogers: right?

Yeah. 

[00:35:18] Donna Lee Fields: Yeah, I agree with that. 

Depictions of Sedna in Inuit Mythology

[00:35:20] Vanessa Y Rogers: I think that it's interesting as well, and I didn't really look specifically, um, how CNA is depicted. So CNA is often depicted as kind of a mermaid like creature. She has, she does not have legs. She has, uh, fins, like a, like a mermaid. Sometimes she's armless, sometimes she's harmless.

Sometimes her hands are fins. Um, but in other versions, she's actually described as like a, a sinister. Hag, um, or a giant or a bloated body that looks more like a walrus. And I'm curious, and I, and I, I wish I had looked into this a little bit more, if those types of depictions show CNA as being angrier than the other, uh, physical features where she looks more like a mermaid.

I don't know. Did you look into that at all? 

[00:36:11] Donna Lee Fields: I didn't look into it, but I'm listening to you really carefully, and I think that's fascinating because we're such a visual people, except some of us who are born without sight or don't have sight right now. We're very visual. And so the depictions of this goddess in the story is very important.

And you're saying sometimes, and I've seen this sometimes, she's absolutely beautiful. You know, your ideal IIT woman, and some of them, she looks very angry, as you're saying. Think about it in relation to the Inuits and their relationship to nature, to food, if they, mm-hmm. Aren't successful in a hunt, they're gonna be pretty upset with the goddess who's keeping it from 'em that they think is keeping it from them.

And so I would just say that it comes from that. It depends on what filter you're using to talk about whatever you're talking about. How's that? 

[00:36:55] Vanessa Y Rogers: I did find the other names for sadness. So there are a lot of different Inuit names, so I am not gonna try and pronounce those 'cause there are several different names.

But um, in Western West Greenlandic, uh, she's called Mother of the Deep. In Northern Canada. She's called big bad woman in Newfoundland, Canada. She's called old woman who lived in the sea. So I, I liked that they had these different interesting names, um, for her. 

[00:37:26] Donna Lee Fields: Yeah, no, that is wonderful. And I just wanted to point out also the, um.

Underworld and overall that I was talking about is specifically that I, that I researched from the Greenland in Inuits. And there is a fantastic book Vanessa called, um, the Green Lenders by Jane Smiley. It actually was a Pulitzer Prize winner, and my sister sent it to me and she said, I think you're gonna love this.

Please read it. This is a very long book, really dense. So good. I cannot tell you. I would love for you to read it and tell me what, so it goes and it doesn't talk. It never uses the word Inuits. It. It probably says native or the northern people. Very, very ambiguous. But it talks about them living very far from other, you know, the other European people that come to the island, but fascinating.

And so Greenland is very different than the other Arctic populations. Yeah. 

Sedna's Underwater World and Its Guardians

[00:38:19] Vanessa Y Rogers: Um, one other thing I wanted to mention that I forgot to, when I was talking about the different variations, there is a variation where, uh, SNA has an underwater husband. Did you come across that one? No, I 

[00:38:31] Donna Lee Fields: never came across that one.

[00:38:32] Vanessa Y Rogers: Okay. So I went down a little bit 

[00:38:34] Donna Lee Fields: when they wrote that version, 

[00:38:38] Vanessa Y Rogers: I, I went down a little bit of a wiki hole. I just learned this terminology because I've been calling it a rabbit hole. But, um. It's called. So she marries kaju, which is a, he is a giant sea scorpion and he's her husband. And I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Are sea scorpions a thing? It they actually exist. And then, so this is where I went down this Wiki hole. Um, they. Did exist. Uh, and they, they died off in the Trias extinction area era during like 200 million years ago, but they were called the Europe rides, Europe trades, and they grew up to eight. Feet long.

Yes. Crazy right? Um, so I'm very grateful at this point for this extinction period. Um, there were these flood bal al salt volcanic eruptions that created the Siberian traps. And it, um, spewed massive amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, which caused the oceans to be ocean starved, which caused this like incredible extinction in the ocean.

So 81% of marine species during this time period died and 57 bi biological families died during this time. This was 200 mil million years ago, and so it's known as the greatest. Mass extinction of insects. Um, so that just was like a side note because I was like, are giant scorpions a thing? Um, but they were not today, but they were.

The Significance of Loneliness and Isolation

[00:40:15] Donna Lee Fields: But it's really interesting you're talking about she has a husband because a lot of the story again, we were talking about being isolated and being, um. Alienated from her, her family, from society. And so she has company down there in some of the versions is very interesting because some of the lesson of the story, and again, if we can just think, just imagine how the Arctic people live is very quiet and it's very isolated from the rest of the world.

Her loneliness down at the bottom of the sea is sort of a vast, um, vision. Of how she lives her life. Mm-hmm. And what I think we can take away from that is it's okay to be alone. We are a society that we are just pelted with information constantly. Unless we learn how to turn off our phone and we don't open our computer still there's, we are pelted with so many different distractions.

We can do whatever we want so we don't feel alone. And one of the elements of the story that I think is really important is be with that loneliness. And find out how it's not, um, a feeling of victimization, but a feeling of empowerment that through her time at the bottom of the ocean, she became sort of the, the so delegator of the rest of the world's, um, food source.

[00:41:28] Vanessa Y Rogers: Hmm. I think that's a really interesting, uh, a, a really interesting take. I'm not sure I. So in Inuit culture, being alone is basically a death sentence though. So she's different in that she's, you know, a goddess and a ruler of the end of world and different versions. But if you did not, uh, conform to the Inuit culture and did not follow their, uh.

S you know, religious rules, you were basically ostracized and that meant that you died because you could not live without other people. Um, but it is interesting. You are right, the, the environment. I didn't even really think about how the environment would probably be incredibly silent and very, uh, it would feel isolating.

Um, but that is a really interesting take. 

[00:42:23] Donna Lee Fields: It's another take on it. And think about it, it does happen often that people are lost in a hunt and they're, they're, they're stranded out there. And I would imagine, I don't know this fact, but I would imagine that they would take sort of comfort in the fact, knowing that some of their mythological uh, figures are also alone.

And maybe that will give them strength. 

[00:42:42] Vanessa Y Rogers: Yeah. 

[00:42:43] Donna Lee Fields: Yeah, 

[00:42:44] Vanessa Y Rogers: so this, uh, just to go back to the giant sea scorpion, she, he's actually the guardian of her underwater home in these versions. And he stands guard on said's sub aquatic dwelling, and which is the entrance to Alderon the underwater world. And, um, when the shamans make their spiritual journey to, uh, kind of console with her, or, uh, untangle the sea animals from her hair.

Uh, they have to go through him and sometimes he creates challenges for those, those shaman. So he's kind of the, the liminal figure who is the boundary between the living world and Edna's underwater world, which is interesting. And in some versions, he's actually the husband of both. He both Sedna and her armless mother.

Uh, Issa. Yeah. Interesting, interesting. And so they share him as a, a husband? Yes. 

[00:43:44] Donna Lee Fields: It's Wow. Yeah. Okay. 

Sedna in Modern Contexts

[00:43:47] Donna Lee Fields: You, you, you, um, stopped me for a minute because I was so excited about another fact. We both have so much information about the story and we're already sort of, um, arriving at this hour, Vanessa, but I wanted to mention that there's also a planet now named Edna.

Did you find that? Yes, 

[00:44:04] Vanessa Y Rogers: yes. Okay. I saw a lot of people talking about it, but I didn't research it very much. I 

[00:44:09] Donna Lee Fields: just really quickly, because it, it is gonna come up, said is a, a dwarf planet, and they, they talk about this in very philosophical terms. It's so far out, it's so far away from most of the, the planets and the meteors and the moons that we usually talk about.

They go right into the myth that she's beyond the Cooper Belt. She's known. Um, it's, it's highly elliptical, but then they talk about how. The, the mythological figure it's based on was also very isolated. So it's just really interesting that even in the scientific world, they talk about the myth and they talk about the, the consequences of being so far away from anything else in its vicinity.

[00:44:48] Vanessa Y Rogers: And she, she's within our solar system, cna. 

[00:44:51] Donna Lee Fields: Um, within our solar system. I, that is a really interesting question, and I'm not gonna say yes or no about that, but if they found it, is it not in our solar system? Not in our solar system, but, 

[00:45:02] Vanessa Y Rogers: huh. I would imagine we wouldn't be aware of her if, if it wasn't in our solar system.

'cause I'm not sure we can see past our solar system. I don't know. 

[00:45:08] Donna Lee Fields: Okay, great. So it says it takes 11,400 years to complete a single revolution around the sun. So yes, the answer is, it is in our solar system, but so far out, they just discovered her in 2003. 

[00:45:20] Vanessa Y Rogers: Oh, okay. So she's relatively new. Is she, does it say anything if she's like in line with Pluto, is she one of the ones that is like hanging out with Pluto out there?

[00:45:29] Donna Lee Fields: Yeah. No, it doesn't say anything like that. Vanessa, sorry. 

[00:45:33] Vanessa Y Rogers: Oh man. I, I always want Pluto to have company. He, he got delegated to us dwarf.

Okay. 

Creation Myths Across Cultures

[00:45:45] Vanessa Y Rogers: Um, I did wanna talk a little bit about some other creation stories that I came across. 'cause I was really curious to find if there were other creation stories that were at all in line with the CNA creation stories. Um, okay, but can 

[00:45:59] Donna Lee Fields: you talk about them briefly? 'cause you have a lot of information and it's really important, but we are coming up to the hour, so, yeah.

So the first 

[00:46:06] Vanessa Y Rogers: one I came across is the, the least. It's more typical of a, a normal creation story. So basically it's the Iroquois creation myth where, um, the sky woman becomes pregnant, she and her husband live up in the clouds, and this is when the earth has come completely, completely covered in water.

And her husband is furious that she's pregnant. So he basically pushes her down into, through the, the clouds, and she try, she falls and she's caught by these birds. And the birds are like, where are we gonna place this? This goddess woman, because there's no land. And so it's basically the, the story of how there becomes land and how there becomes, um.

Other animals. And, uh, there are some animals already and they gather up mud from the bottom of the ocean and they pile it up on top of a giant sea turtle. And, and it's become, it becomes as large as North America. And so that's where they place her. And she gives birth to two, to two boys, to twins. And one of them is, uh, the creator of everything that is good.

Everything that's useful to humans, the rivers. The fish and the plants that are easily, uh, eaten. And then Flint is the one who is everything that is bad. He makes all the rivers only flow in one direction. He puts bones in the fish so that it's hard to eat. He puts thorns in, uh, and on the buried bushes and he creates winter.

And then they have this great battle and he. Uh, the bad one gets driven underground, but his anger sometimes is, uh, felt in the form of earthquakes and volcanoes. And so that is like a, a much more typical creation story than the Ness story. Um, but there are two stories that I did find that were more in line with the Edna story.

Um, the first was the Columbia River Plateau. Tribes have a creator story about how, uh, food. Came to the humans. So the creator calls the Council of Animals and Plants and decides what to give the new humans that have been created. And the salmon comes up and says, I will offer myself up as food to the humans.

And the water comes and says, I promise to be the home of the salmon. And so once the humans are created, animals no longer have the ability to speak. And so in this compromise, uh, humans have to be the, uh, voice for all of the animals. So there is this, the, the relationship, the, um, between the. The food, the animals and the humans has to be a reciprocal one.

The food, the foods nourish the natives, while the native people must protect them and their habitats that support them. And so I, I really thought that that really jived with the concept of what the senda story is really about.

Are you there? 

[00:49:05] Donna Lee Fields: You you're looking for the other one or are you waiting for me to 

[00:49:07] Vanessa Y Rogers: Oh, I, I, I wanted to say if you had thoughts about that. I do have one other one that I found, which is in a similar area, the Northwest, um, us, and this one includes the Thunderbird and the whale, and the Thunderbird sees that the people are starving.

Once again, humans are starving. And so someone. Needs to help them. Right? Uh, the Thunderbird decides to battle a giant whale and offers it to the hungry people as food. And so he's seen as, uh, a divine intervention in the, in the whale sacrifice is honored in dances and songs. And so the Thunderbird is seen in lots of imagery.

Um. In their, in their culture. And once again, there's this relationship, right? The spiritual stewardship of marine life up to nature and, uh, the creation that comes out of sacrifice. I. 

[00:50:00] Donna Lee Fields: Yeah, and stewardship is the operative word here. So would you please, you're gonna put the three ti, the titles of those three into the show notes, correct?

Because I thought are, yeah, and I love that you brought it back to the creation, the the creation concept. 

Takeaways and Reflections on Mythology

[00:50:13] Donna Lee Fields: And I, I guess I would just like to talk about what our takeaway, again is in the story, and I think stewardship is the key word here. That these stories are about, um, respecting the, respecting nature, respecting oceans, respecting our livelihood, which in this case is hunting, but sustainable, responsible, and, um, about taking, um, challenges and turning them into empowering opportunities.

Yeah, and that's my takeaway for it. 

[00:50:42] Vanessa Y Rogers: Yeah, and I think that, you know, as human nature we see this in everything. We see this giant pendulum, right? We swing one way, one really far, and then we swing one way really far. And I think these stories often help to ground us, to remind us what it is that is really important.

And I think that, you know, with the, the, the Inuit story of Sedna. You, they, they realize that human nature sometimes gets too greedy, right? We become too selfish. And even, uh, when they're, uh, experiencing the consequences of greed, it becomes incredibly evident. And so then they have to correct through, uh, rituals and, and sacrifice.

And, uh, the shamans, uh, communing with sedna and, uh. Apologizing, there's this, um, they have a lot of taboos and if you, uh, I think some of the taboos are around not using all of the animal, right? If you are, if you're wasteful, if you hunt and then you are waste some of the animal, that is a huge taboo and you will have to confess to either shaman or to the community as part of, um.

Your consequence for, uh, committing these taboos. And so, uh, I, I think that these stories remind us that our nature to be greedy has to be kept in, in, in check. 

[00:52:17] Donna Lee Fields: Beautiful, Vanessa. Beautiful. Love that conclusion. Alright. 

Looking Ahead: Exploring New Cultures

[00:52:20] Donna Lee Fields: Do we know what we're doing next time? Have we decided yet? I love the fact that we really dived into Inuit culture.

[00:52:26] Vanessa Y Rogers: We have, maybe we can look at it. Um, another culture that we haven't looked at. What is the culture that we haven't looked at at this point? 

[00:52:33] Donna Lee Fields: Well, because you were talking about not, not really being familiar with the whole sea life, the marine life and, and fairytales. We could go to the Japanese mythology, which has a lot to do with sea life, as you would imagine.

It's a possibility. 

[00:52:45] Vanessa Y Rogers: We definitely have not done anything with Chi uh, with Ja Japan. We have India, Southeast Asia, and China, but we haven't, we haven't touched on Japan, so that might be a, a, a great place to look. And if our listeners have any ideas, we'd love to hear your ideas. If there's a story you want us to delve into, please let us know what that story is.

Uh, so we can, you know what we don't know. We don't know. And. Donna and I love learning about all of this stuff. That's 

[00:53:15] Donna Lee Fields: right. And, and tell us about any challenges you've had recently that have helped you transform into a better version of yourself. That's all would be, we'd be so excited to hear that as well.

I. 

[00:53:24] Vanessa Y Rogers: Absolutely, yes. All of these stories have some sort of challenge that are transformational and that happens in our own life. And I think it's important to remember that these are opportunities, these challenges are oftentimes 

opportunities, uh, for that, that growth, whether it's physical or spiritual.

Um. So that we can be better humans. 

Conclusion and Listener Engagement

[00:53:46] Donna Lee Fields: All right, so Vanessa, you've always, um, introduced us so well, can you do our sign off as well? 

[00:53:52] Vanessa Y Rogers: So thank you so much for listening to Fairytale Flip. Make sure that you're subscribing, comment down below on what your thoughts are, what you learned about today. Uh. Did we get something wrong?

Did you, or do you know, another variation that we didn't cover? We would love to hear, um, your, your thoughts and ideas in your, in the comments below. Make sure you're subscribing so that you, uh, are notified every month when this fairytale flip episode comes out. And until next time, keep the fairytales alive.

[00:54:24] Donna Lee Fields: Bye.