Fairy Tale Flip Ep 18: Sleeping Beauty

Do you know the dark and hidden origins of Sleeping Beauty? In Episode 18 of Fairy Tale Flip, we dive into the evolution of this classic story and the political messaging woven into its earliest versions.

While today’s Sleeping Beauty feels like a simple romantic tale, its European roots stretch back nearly 700 years—and the oldest versions are far more unsettling. We explore the Arthurian romance Perceforest and Giambattista Basile’s Sun, Moon, and Talia, uncovering themes of displaced nobility, female power struggles, patriarchal abuse, and shifting ideas of morality. We even look at a rarely discussed Chinese variant that adds yet another layer of meaning.

This isn’t just a fairy tale—it’s a mirror of history, power, and cultural change. Join us for a conversation you won’t want to miss!

00:52 Recap of Previous Episodes

01:13 Sleeping Beauty: The Grim Version

05:17 Donna's Dissertation on Fairytales

06:54 Exploring A-T-U Classification

11:19 Chinese Folklore: The Oldest Version

15:15 European Tales: The Darker Side

16:01 Sun, Moon, and Talia: The Shocking Tale

20:58 Unveiling Hidden Truths

21:22 Symbolism and Subliminal Messages

22:30 Patriarchal Abuse and Survival

23:29 Author's Intent and Satirical Critique

27:53 Cultural Context and Modern Parallels

29:17 Societal Rules and Gender Roles

30:49 Symbolism of Sleep and Maturation

33:29 Epic Origins and Literary Evolution

36:38 Modern Retellings and Female Empowerment

40:10 Concluding Thoughts and Future Discussions

References: 

1. A link for an easy introduction to ATU types https://retellingthetales.com/a-casual-girls-guide-to-using-the-atu-index/

2. ⁠Ursula Le Guin ‘The Poacher’ 2012.

3. Anne Claffey’s ‘The Plastic Princess’

4.  Anne Sexton’s Transformations

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Transcript

Sleeping Beauty Podcast Part 1

Introduction to Fairytale Flip

[00:00:04] Vanessa: All right. Welcome. Welcome to Fairytale Flip. I'm Vanessa by Rogers, and my co-host is Donna Lee Field, and we come together once a month to dissect fairytales, myths, folk tales, all sorts of, uh, story tales that have been passed on through time and time again through the generations.

And I have a podcast called Fabric of Folklore, where I interview guests and talk about all the ins and outs of folklore, including fairytales and folktales. And Donna has a website called Scaffolding Magic, and she also has her own podcast that's on hiatus called Doorways to Learning. Um, and, and so we love doing this one once a month.

Once a month project. 

Recap of Previous Episodes

[00:00:52] Vanessa: Um, and this month we are coming back to a fairytale. The past two months we've been doing mythology. We did, uh, Persephone and Hades and we did, or Hades and Persephone. And then last month we did Edna, which is a Inuit, uh, princess goddess, uh, mythology, which was. Really fascinating.

Sleeping Beauty: The Grim Version

[00:01:13] Vanessa: And this month we are coming back to our roots, which is Sleeping Beauty. And we're structuring this podcast episode a little differently today and we'll talk about why that, why we're doing it. But I'm gonna give the story of Sleeping Beauty. And one of the things that we're gonna talk about is the multiple different versions of the Sleeping Beauty.

Beauty ver uh, storyline, but I'm gonna give you the grim version, which is the most closely aligned to the Disney version, which is probably, uh, what most people are familiar with when they think about sleeping beauty. So there is a. Uh, a king and queen, and they, the queen runs into a frog, and the frog tells the queen that she's going to have her greatest wish, her greatest desire fulfilled, and that is to have a baby girl.

And so they have this baby girl and they have this huge, massive feast, and they invite wise women and the number of changes, um, in different variation. I believe the, the grim storyteller. Is, uh, 13, but the king only has 12 golden plates, therefore only 12 wise women are invited. Plus, or wait, no, that's the Charles per, they only invite 12 because the oldest wise woman has not been seen from, or heard from in 50 years.

That's the grim version. Um, and, uh, and so they, they invite the 12. And all of the wise women are going around and giving magical wishes upon the the baby. And you're gonna be beautiful. You're going to be filled with grace. You are going to be kind and generous, and they get to the 11th. And the 13th wise woman storms into the room and she's furious.

She's furious that she was not invited. Why was she not, uh, invited to this feast that everybody else was invited to? And so she curses the baby and says that the baby on her 15th birthday is going to die, prick her finger on a spindle and die. And then the, the last wise woman who hadn't given her wish or, uh, granted her, um, I don't know, granted, her blessing, yes, blessing.

That's the word I was looking for, uh, onto the child says, I cannot take away the curse, but what I can do is I can soften it instead of her dying, she will fall into a deep slumber for 100 years and then she will awaken at the kiss of a prince. And so on her 15th birthday, for some reason, her parents leave her alone and she pricks her finger on a spinning, a spinning wheel, and she falls into a deep sleep.

And everybody in the castle, everybody falls asleep as well. Even the flies, even the fire, uh, all of the animals. And then, um, a a over the castle is thorn, uh, briar thorns and, and rambles so that nobody can get through. And finally, about a hundred years later, a prince decides to, uh, make his way through.

Even though all the past princes who have gone through have perished. And so this. Prince, uh, actually makes it through because a hundred years have passed and therefore, uh, it is his destiny to wake up the princess. And so he, uh, goes into the tower and kisses the, uh, her name is Briar Rose. It, which is the same name that, uh, the princess has in the Disney version when she is living in the forest with the fairies.

Um, and so he kisses Briar rose, she wakes up and looks at him lovingly and they fall in love and they go downstairs and they get married. And that is the end of the grim version. So, uh, Donna, tell us your initial thoughts when you. When you read this story or were presented with the Sleeping Beauty story?

Donna's Dissertation on Fairytales

[00:05:17] Donna: Well, it's interesting because I was doing my dissertation on fairytales, which you well know, and I've, you know, I've mentioned this a few times and my fair, my dissertation was on the witches, the heroine of fairytales. And, um, I don't know how I finally got to the sleeping beauty. I did not wanna do the sleeping beauty, but I don't know if my, the director of my thesis recommended it.

And the, the reason why I didn't wanna do it, you told it really, really well. Of course, Vanessa as usual, but it's so, it seems so two dimensional. But I was coming from this perspective of the Disney version, which is the version that, um, you pretty much just related. Disney used the grim version, but he made it very colorful and he made it very two dimensional and he made it very stereotypical.

And there were so many, there's so much depth in this story. That is really tapped down in the Disney movie, but I grew up with that and a lot of us know the sleeping beauty through the Disney version. And so one day I would love to really talk about the travesty of Disney movies. Sorry, law listeners, sorry.

But I mean, I really get angry about Disney and part of my dissertation I really dived, I really dove into, um. How Disney himself, Walt Disney really was a misogynist and was, you know, really into the patriarch and had his own agenda. But anyway. Anyway, I'm going really way off topic, except that to say that I did Sleeping Beauty was part of my dissertation.

And what I did in the thesis was compare four a time. And I don't know, Vanessa, I think we've talked a little bit about the fact that fairytales, once you get into really studying them. 

Exploring A-T-U Classification

[00:06:54] Donna: Are classified by a TU types. Have we ever talked about that? Yes. 

[00:06:58] Vanessa: I think it's been mentioned, but I don't think we've discussed what that is or what the they mean.

[00:07:04] Donna: All right. Well, I'm gonna pass on a link that I found. It's, it's like an 1 0 1. It's like, um, a TU classification types 1 0 1 is really easy to read, but essentially a TU stands for three of the incredible scholars of our time about fairytales, RNA, Thompson and, and Luther. And they just wanted to classify.

D fairytales for their archetypes or their motifs or that sort of thing. Um, and I actually had the honor of meeting the third one Uther, because I can't remember why my director wasn't really thrilled about my thesis. He did not understand what I was doing. The. The witch is the heroine of fairytales.

But he was very supportive 'cause he thought I was the strangest person in the world. And so he thought, you know, well, you know, I'll help her. Who knows what's gonna happen? And he knew this, um, Hans Jorg author and took me up to have lunch with him. And I talked to him. I mean, I talked to him about a TU type.

Anyway. Mm-hmm. Um, so what I guess the point here is, is that once Vanessa said, let's do a classic, and I thought, oh God, a classic, it's gonna come down to sleeping beauty, isn't it? And then we had my thesis and I thought, you know what? This is really good. There's so much depth, especially if you break down all the plot lines and if you see what feminists, you know, people who are very pro, um.

Pro sort of women power and also anyone, anyone empowering people. If you look at the new versions of it, it's also really interesting to compare them. And that's some of the things we're gonna do. So, um, where are we, Vanessa? What was the question? And have I answered it 

[00:08:44] Vanessa: Well? I, so what do you think drew you to Sleeping Beauty?

What, what made you want to make it your thesis project? 

[00:08:53] Donna: I guess in the end I really wanted to explore the different, the, the, the archetypal, the archetypical characters, the king, the queen, the prince and the princess and the witch, of course. And the more I looked at it, the more you know the image we always have of sleeping beauty is the prince.

Hovering over the princess about to give her the kiss. And so just as a sort of prelude in the sleeping beauty and the versions, it is not actually the witch who is the most abominable creature. It's. I don't know if I should say it here or whether we're gonna go into it, but, um, it's the male figures.

The male figures in the sleeping beauty is what really drew me to this because there it's so wrong how it's presented. Seems like the king is the good guy is as usual and the prince is the savior. But you have a man, this is the image we all grew up with. You have a man hovering over a girl about to kiss her, supposedly to save her, and yet he is.

Touching her lips with his lips without her consent, and so that's where we're gonna start. For me. That's why it makes it so interesting. Um, there's a lot of abuse in the story, but I guess we need to go into the version. So 

[00:10:05] Vanessa: yes, and so that's one of the reasons why we decided to structure this story slightly different, Lee, than we normally do.

Normally we'll talk about the themes and then we'll talk about the different versions and the history, but the different versions. Um. So, just to back up, remember a fairytale, and we've talked about this before, fairytales are written by an author. A lot of times they are based off of their, the, the modern folk tale of the, the time that they're being written in.

And so they are usually based off of oral storytelling. Which is the case for sleeping beauty as well. Um, but fairytales are not tied to a place or time. They're once upon a time, they almost always end with a happy ending. Um, and, and so these fairytales. Almost all have authors. The original ones that I'm gonna talk about first don't, but the authors in this and these versions make a huge difference in the interpretation of the sleeping beauty versions.

And so I that I suggested when I was reading through the histories that we talk about themes. Pertinent to each version. Um, and, and so we'll, we'll go into that a little bit. 

Chinese Folklore: The Oldest Version

[00:11:19] Vanessa: Um, the, the oldest version that I came across, which is not technically still, it is a mixture, and Donna mentioned the categorization.

Uh, the A-T-U-A-T-U four 10 is a sleeping beauty categorization. Um, but this one is a mixture between the sleeping beauty and the snow white. Uh, storyline, which is the a TU 7 0 9 and this one is found in China, and it was written by an anonymous author in this, uh, very epic book. And it was only recently, uh, kind of looked into, I believe the story.

I, I wrote down the pronunciation. Sorry. If I'm butchering it, I will butcher it and. Wrong. Those are two different story sleeping beauty, Chinese stories. Um, but basically the story goes, there's an emperor, or emperor is concubine. She's told by the Daoist master that she's going to die young and he feels sorry for her.

So he gives her a magic pill that will, um, prevent her soul from leaving her body upon her death. So she takes a pill later on, she dies. Um, and she goes into a dormant state for 100 years, and she's placed in a Chinese burial chamber in the Imperial Palace. A hundred years later she awakens. Um, and the Dao master, I guess he's still alive.

I, I'm unclear about that. Uh, and he encourages a virtuous official to go, um, into the ancient palace that is also overgrown with hedge. Just like in the Sleeping Beauty and they fall in love and get married. And so it is not considered the oldest version, even though it is from the ninth century, which predates the uh, one that is considered the oldest because it doesn't fall neatly within that categorization.

It doesn't have a magical sleep. Instead, it has a magical death, and then it also does not have a. Flax, which is what is used, um, for spinning or a spinning wheel. And so those two, uh, elements that are lacking keep it from being considered within the true sleeping beauty. Motif, but it is still considered a sleeping beauty adjacent story.

Um, but it is interesting. I did look into, um, the Chinese differences between magical death and sleep. And it actually makes a lot more sense that she would die in, in Chinese folklore because sleep was portrayed, uh, negatively. It would was linked to neglect of duty and loss of reason, spiritual vulnerability.

And so sleep was often used as a metaphor was not used as a metaphor for transformation as it was used in Christian European stories. So that was common, a common storyline in Christian European stories that sleep was a renewal and a transformation. But death in Chinese folklore was considered the renewal and the, uh, transformation.

Catalyst and so it, it makes a lot more sense to the Chinese culture to have the death rather than the sleep. Did you come across the story or have any, you know what? 

[00:14:21] Donna: No, you sent me that and I was, I was so impressed because I usually found the, the oldest version, and this time I didn't, the oldest version I found was from the Netherlands in 1330, which is Persa Forest.

Yes. And in that one, do you found that one, right? 

[00:14:36] Vanessa: Yes, I did. But you know, I came across this one. I used chat, GBT, and it gave me PERA force as the oldest, and then I said. Are there no Asian tails are there 'cause it only gave us, it only gave me European tails and, and then it gave me a bunch of Asian tails that kind of fell in the sleeping beauty adjacent.

But this one seemed to be the closest aligned to the European tails. So I really wanted to include it because I feel like it is very closely aligned. 

[00:15:07] Donna: It sounds like it. And then you go to the, the European stories, and here we get it. We get some more reality in that. 

European Tales: The Darker Side

[00:15:15] Donna: Um, in the one I found, the 1331, the in the Percy Forest is where you find the princess who's been falling asleep for some reason.

And a prince or a king or Duke finds her. Is attracted to her and rapes her, essentially rapes her, and then waking up from the coma. The different versions. There's different consequences when she wakes up from her coma or her sleep. So do you wanna talk about the other versions that you found? 

[00:15:41] Vanessa: I do, and I want to talk about Persa Forest, but I kind of wanted to skip it and go to the Sun Moon in Talia and then come back to Persa Forest because there's elements that are so similar, but there's real drastic differences that I think would make sense.

The other way. Do you mind me? Okay, 

[00:15:59] Donna: great doing that. No, no, no. Please go ahead. 

Sun, Moon, and Talia: The Shocking Tale

[00:16:01] Donna: You're gonna go into the um, pan Marone by Jam Batista ba, right? 1626. Yes. 

[00:16:07] Vanessa: Jam Batista, ba. Um, and this is probably the most well known, uh, origin story, and I think I found this one the most frequently, uh, mentioned. And y'all.

Buckle your seat belts because this one is insane. It's insane. And I want to get your reaction of what you thought about it when you first came across it. This one is written about 300 years after the oldest version is the, the one that is from the Netherlands, although I just also saw it attributed to the French, but I don't know.

I think Netherlands is probably. Correct. Um, this one that comes from a, a, a work called the Pinta Moroney, um, which I think translate to a tale of tales. Um, okay, so Talia is a daughter of a great Lord and an astrologer predicts that she's engraved danger from a splinter of flax. And that's, um, what was used often to as thread to make a, a spinning wheel.

I don't really know the ins and outs, but they would use it to make clothing. So it was very important at the time. Um, and so. Uh, the father banned all flax from the estate to protect her, which y'all, everybody had to use flax in order to make clothing. So this was That's right. A big deal for him to do.

That's right. 

[00:17:28] Donna: Yes. 

[00:17:30] Vanessa: Um, and so at some point when she's older, she comes across this old woman spinning flax antalia. Who's never seen a spinning wheel, nor has she seen flax wants to, uh, try it. And of course, because she's curious and she gets flax splintered under her, her nail, and so she goes into who?

Into a deathlike sleep. Her father believes that she's dead, and instead of bearing her, he just places her in a country house and has her watched over by, um, individuals. Then a random king is about out and about, and he's hunting, and he, um, is drawn into the ca, into the estate because his falcon goes into the window.

He's captivated, captivated by her beauty. And then he has sex with her. Yes, she's absolutely asleep. I was, I was telling my story this to, I was telling this story to my friend and she said, so he raped her. And I was like, yep. Exactly. Thank you. 

[00:18:26] Donna: Yes. 

[00:18:27] Vanessa: That's exactly what happened. Yeah. Um, and then she gives birth two.

Uh, which are named Sun and Moon by the fairies who are helping to take care of her, and they are helping to take care of the babies as well. And, and at one point, instead of sucking on milk, the one of the babies latches onto her thumb and sucks out the flax. And so she awakens and she's obviously very, uh, confused and bewildered about what is happening.

Um, and the, the king who has completely forgotten about her comes back. And he's so joyful that she is there. Um, and, but he is married, he has a wife, he has a queen, and so he keeps Talia and the twins secret and one, but she, the queen finds out and she goes into a rage. Yes. Right. And so she devises a plan to bring the, uh, to bring her and the twins.

And he orders the cook. She orders the cook to cook the babies and feed it to the king. And then they make a giant pit full of venom, venomous snakes and lizards and, and other creatures for Talia to be thrown into. So the king eats his meal, his nice twin baby meal. And Talia is about to be thrown into this pit.

Sometimes it's fire, sometimes it's been Miss Snakes. Personally, I like the, the snakes, it seems more creative. Um, and she's yell, she's yelling as she's taking off her clothes because the queen wants her beautiful clothes not to be ruined so she can take them, um, so that the king might hear her and the king finally.

Comes out when she's stark naked and he's furious. And so his queen is throw, basically throws herself into the pit, and then Talia Sun and Moon, the twins and the king live happily ever after. That is the original story that most peoples associate with sleeping Beauty. Now, before we get into the ins and outs of why the story was written, I, I wanna hear your initial reaction.

[00:20:35] Donna: Well, we need to just, there's just one little, um, addition is that the cook decides in a lot of the versions, in some versions, the king actually does eat his children, but the cook actually saves the children and feeds the, the king a deer or whatever. He feeds them other types of meat. Sorry, that was very important.

[00:20:53] Vanessa: That's a very important 

[00:20:54] Donna: thing that I missed. Babies are fine. Very important. Very important. Great. 

Unveiling Hidden Truths

[00:20:58] Donna: So in so, and, and also what's really important is when he goes back and she has the twins, he never tells her that he's the one that actually is the father of these twins that actually raped her. So she doesn't know.

So I think that's rather important as well. 

[00:21:12] Vanessa: Oh, I didn't know that. 

[00:21:14] Donna: Yeah. Oh, I mean, it, it's not, it's not, um, clarified and so you have to assume that she doesn't know in any case. 

Symbolism and Subliminal Messages

[00:21:22] Donna: Um, there's a lot of, there's a lot, there's really important points here. As you, as you mentioned, the king, instead of just.

Educating his daughter on what's gonna happen when she's a certain age and explaining to her the facts of life, basically. He doesn't tell her anything and tries to, he's overprotective, he tries, he just treats her as an object and not as an intelligent person. And this is a lot of the things that we get subliminally when we're reading these stories.

So instead of saying, you know, be careful, the flax can represent. Drugs. The flax can represent, you know, unprotected sex, let's just say. Um, it can be the realities of life. And the girl, instead of knowing how to deal with different realities and an unknown event, she just dives right in and goes for the, you know, goes for the spin.

She gets the flax under her. Her hands. And aside from the fact that, as you mentioned, spinning wheels were livelihood and essential for life, the king just decides to burn all the, the flax or the spinning wheels and other versions. He could have just educated his daughter simply. Right. So that was one of the things that came up for me.

[00:22:29] Vanessa: Yeah. 

Patriarchal Abuse and Survival

[00:22:30] Donna: Uh, the other thing is the obvious abuse of the, the patriarch in, in, in this story to patriarchs the king and the prince, the Duke, or whatever version you're reading. The Duke has an affair with a girl. Without her consent, though first queen. Throws herself into a pit of snakes. But why she, yes, she definitely did something that is not recommended trying to feed little children to her, her husband.

But she also was put in a position where she didn't, she felt she didn't have much of a choice in that time. A woman only could survive if they were tied to a man. He had the money, he had the house, et cetera. And so if. The girl, the second wife we're putting into the quotes, if the second wife had come in with the children, she would've been kicked out, is how she felt.

And so she did what she needed to try to survive. We do need to to look at that side as well. 

[00:23:22] Vanessa: Yeah. Um, okay, so the thing that I, besides the insane story, this is a crazy story, right? 

Author's Intent and Satirical Critique

[00:23:29] Vanessa: Um, this is a crazy story, but I wanna talk about who the author was because in this instance, it makes such a big deal. Um, he was a Napoleon, Napoleon, Cortier and poet, and he's writing this in a style.

Considered Baroque satire. Um, it was published in this series actually posthumously after his death and a bun. And his book contains a lot of different, uh, storytelling, uh, fairytales, Cinderella, Rapunzel, pus, pus. Some boots include Anne Sleeping Beauty in Hans and Gretel type story. So this book of his has lots of old fairy tales.

But his writing style uses Baroque excess, which is intended to expose corruption. He's using satirical, allegory to, uh. Highlight the hypocrisy of the nobility at the time. So this story was not meant for children. It was absolutely meant for the, the aristocracy of the time, all the nobility. It was written for adults.

He's deeply influenced and using classical literature. And Italian literary traditions in order to combine these grotesque elements with ornate prose using satirical dissonance. So his language that he's using is lush language. Metaphors, double meanings. It's lyrical, it has humorous tones, and it's intended to contrast with those horrific acts that we're seeing, um, the murder, uh, cannibalism.

Sexual assault, right? All of these things are intended to be read as a. A constru, a critique of the time period. And I think that this is really interesting and very much a contrast to the, uh, the later authors, uh, specifically Charles Perot, um, who wrote kind of with the opposite intention in mind, but we're seeing all sorts of themes.

Um, the tyranny, hypocrisy. Gender roles, political decay. Um, and so these are all elements that are really, uh, clear to the modern audiences who are witnessing these atrocious behaviors that are currently being tolerated within the meritocracy. So, uh, the nobility sees this and they understand that this behavior is often what is.

Currently seen and also rewarded, right? People got away with these things and they didn't have any sort of justice. Women, um, were taken advantage of and it was their fault, right? If a, a woman lost her purity, that was not on the man, that was on the woman, right? That was those, these horrendous acts. Were not blamed on the perpetrator, but on the victim.

And one of the things that was. I was reading about was that it was, he was really trying to say that this is not okay in a very, um, backwards way because during this time period, free speech does not exist. Right. As I'm reading about like, what is it his. His intention. I have never been as grateful for my freedom of speech, uh, as I was while reading this, because if he came out and said, these horrendous acts that I'm seeing amongst, uh, all of my peers are terrible or horrendous and need to stop, it's very likely that he would've gotten his head chopped off or he would've been thrown into a prison sale cell and never been hurt again.

So these were, uh. As you know, Donna has mentioned many times that fairytales were a way to criticize the, the. The modern era, what was happening and how they, they weren't necessarily giving solutions, but they were saying, I see you and this isn't, this isn't right. 

[00:27:53] Donna: Okay. 

Cultural Context and Modern Parallels

[00:27:53] Donna: So Vanessa, what I'm, what I just came up for me as you were talking is that.

Yes. We talked, we've talked about this many times, is that fairytales was a sort of safe place for the peasants to, um, vent about aristocracy and their, you know, how they were treated. And modern day, I don't, I don't read the news for, I'd never read the news because it's just horrific. But today I happened to read something about Stephen Colbert.

Now I'm not a big platform comedian. Analyze what's happening politically, and I just found out that his show has been canceled, and so it's another way of just shutting down people who are finding seemingly innocent ways of complaining about. People, and again, I'm putting this in quotes, air quotes in power, because we all have the power to do whatever we want.

It's my spiritual training. Um, but it, it's very important to realize that when someone cancels a program, you need to find out why. Um, I love the fact that you really studied the background, the cultural context of this story, because Yeah, he was making the author. Which one are we talking about parole or No?

[00:29:03] Vanessa: Um, this was the Italian, the one who was in Naples, uh,

[00:29:11] Donna: Gale Bale, right? Yes. And he was making a statement about the aristocracy, just what we were saying. So. 

Societal Rules and Gender Roles

[00:29:17] Donna: I also wanna point out on, on another sort of vein in the same thing. It's not so much political and not so much cultural, but it's societal that the fact that, um, you did mention that it's important for a girl because they were girls when they got married to.

Married as virgins who made this rule. I don't know. It's, you know, so the man could, could really apparently, or supposedly know if the child was his or not. That was very important to them. So the father, again, instead of explaining to his daughter that if she, you know, just tranced around the, the kingdom and, um, had.

Physical contact with men, then she wasn't going to be marriageable. Um, so instead he, he burns a spinning wheel or what, in some cases, a flax, you can say, because she's going to have her finger pricked on a needle. Now, let's just say the needle is a fall symbol, symbol instead of the king explaining that this is what, you know, this is the biology of men, and you don't want this to happen to you because.

Then you're no good for me. Basically. Yeah. He, he doesn't, he doesn't want, you can look at it from this way. He doesn't wanna let go of his daughter when she's 15. Maybe he has, you know, an attraction to herself, or maybe he just can't let go of his daughter, so he doesn't want to give her to another man.

He eliminates the problem. He eliminates the phallus. It's one more way of looking at the story. 

[00:30:41] Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a really interesting way, uh, to, to think about it. Um, and I also came across a lot of. 

Symbolism of Sleep and Maturation

[00:30:49] Vanessa: Um, and I think you came across something that was similar as well, that the sleep was sometimes symbolically seen as a, um, the transition between girlhood and a adulthood, like the, um, how it was.

A, a fear of women to go into adulthood and have to go through all of these kind of puberty adolescent trials. Um, having, you know, uh, their first period and having relations with a man. These were all, uh, fears that, uh, were having to be faced and not really talked about, uh, quite as. Much. And so the sleeve is sometimes a symbolic of this transition.

Is that something you, you've read as well? 

[00:31:39] Donna: Yeah, because, uh, a lot of times in some versions, the mother's there, um, but she's also complicit in her husband not educating the girl, not explaining, you know, what the, what realities of life are or the mother is not there. And so how is the girl gonna learn what menstruation is?

Well, how is the girl going to learn about men and, and what intercourse is? And so in a lot of versions, you can interpret this as the girl herself looking for the witch as a way of putting a pause on her own life. And we see it as, um, looking for someone to help her. Get ready to mature. So the hundred years could be, is it a way of looking at the girls saying, I need time to assimilate all this information?

And there's one other thing that I meant to say. When you were giving your versions the sort of summary of the stories. In many of the versions, the fairies put everyone to sleep except the king and queen. Mm-hmm. And to me it's kind of a punishment for the king and queen because everyone else wakes. Up with the princess and lives the rest of their lives with her.

The king and queen die with their daughter on a on a bed. And they won't ever get to know her, which is also, we can say it's a punishment for them because they did not welcome this 13th witch. As you were talking about, there were 12 gold play sets, and instead of looking for something comparable to the 13th, when she finally came, they said, no, you're not welcome.

Mm-hmm. So a lot of people see it, a justifiable curse that the 13th ferry. Gave unfortunately to the daughter and not to the parents, but then they were punished because they were not put to sleep for those a hundred years. 

[00:33:18] Vanessa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was very confused as to why they would leave. I was like, why did not, why did they not go to sleep with everybody else in the kingdom?

But that makes sense as, as a punishment, that's one way to look at it. Yeah. Yeah. 

Epic Origins and Literary Evolution

[00:33:29] Vanessa: Um, okay, so I just wanna go back to the, the story that you mentioned earlier, the persa forest that was written anonymously. About 700 years ago. It is this massive epic story. So it is, the sleeping beauty part is just a small portion of the story.

It was written about 1340s. This is pre Gutenberg press, which means these are all handwritten. There are four copies still today that are handwritten by scribes. I can you imagine? I mean, and this was not a short novel. This was, I think. 7,000 pages over 1 million words, hundreds of chapters. So it's like this epic, arturian, romantic chivalric, uh, romance that has lots and lots of elements to it.

And the sleeping beauty is just a small portion of it. But, so she was giving the, the rundown and it's very similar. To the first half. Zine is the, uh, the princess. She falls asleep and, um, is awakened by Troy Li and either Duke or Prince or, um, and they had known each other prior. This is the only story, uh, this is an element that Disney reintroduced because this is the only story where the Prince was known prior to, um, the Awakening, and he is.

He goes, because the Roman gods are involved in this story, and Venus actually is the perpetrator of forcing him to force himself on her. He, she kind of puts a spell on him to force him to have sex with her because he keeps saying, I don't want to touch her. I don't want to do this. But basically, Venus, Venus.

Forces his hand, and he does, and she, she does become impregnated and she wakes up and the baby, one baby sucks out the, the flax out of his, her thumb. And then when, um, he comes to talk to her, she is distraught. She is like so distraught because she's aware that he took her most important element of marriage, of marriageability away from her.

She took, he took her virginity. She's so, she's so upset about it. Um, and he convinces her and reassures her that this was, the goddess assured him that this was the only way that she would ever wake up. And in the end, she is grateful. And that the interesting element that I wanted to to mention is that it's mentioned repeatedly in the storyline, the female should have the rule of her own body and the male should not use force against her will.

Her will. And so this is a, a repeated, um. Theme that is stated. And so I think the reaction feels different in this story, whereas in the, like the story that we were talking about, Talia, sun and Moon, the king just decides that he's in love with her. Sleeping body and wants to, to ravis her, but Joyless is her friend and, and does not want to take this action, but he's kind of forced to by Venus and other gods who are also involved in the storyline.

[00:36:37] Donna: Really interesting. 

Modern Retellings and Female Empowerment

[00:36:38] Donna: There's, um, there's three modern versions that I really wanted to talk about very briefly, and, but when. I, I'm not sure which one to talk about first, but one of them is, is Anne Claffey is the plastic princess. And this one I really like because they changed the story a little bit by with the fairies.

And this is, you know, how do we empower girls? How can we sort of undo what Disney's done and in, and her version, the fairies, instead of giving beauty, grace, and humility and, oh no, there's a fourth one. Beauty, grace, humility, and excellent sewing skills. Mm-hmm. This is what the fairies give, uh, the Sleeping Girl in Ann's version.

They give her the highest abilities in mathematics, technology, and business skills. Let's go. This is what I'd love you to read for your daughter, Vanessa. By the way. 

[00:37:29] Vanessa: It's also a really interesting, so wait, at what point was this story written? 

[00:37:33] Donna: Ann Claffey, I think she was probably in the nineties, 1990s.

[00:37:36] Vanessa: Okay. So it's a very modern retelling of sleeping, 

[00:37:39] Donna: right? Yes, yes. Yes. Um, is it a 

[00:37:41] Vanessa: novel or is it a, a short story? 

[00:37:43] Donna: It's a short story, yeah. Okay. There's another one that sort of emphasizes what you're talking about and, and you know, the power and the, the, um. The ownership of one's own body, be it a girl or be it a boy.

And in Anne Sexton's book, there's another short story called Transformations. She really emphasizes what's really going on here. And again, we're talking about, remember in the beginning I was mentioning the Prince is hovering over the sleeping princess and is about to kiss her without her consent. And in Anne Sexton version, you have the father leaning over her, and we're not sure whether he ravages her every night, but the idea is he is.

You know, hovering over her in a pretty aggressive way every night, and he nibbles on her dress, so it's a way of getting out of the whole Disney. Um, two dimensional thinking that this is okay, that it's okay for a girl to be put to sleep. And, and the birds are chirping and the animals are all smiling and the dwarfs think it's absolutely beautiful.

Or, sorry, that was, um, snow White. Yeah. Yeah, snow White. So that, but you know, in the Disney movies, everything and the music is soaring and the Prince kisses her and oh, she's so happy about it. Anyway, these are. People who are trying to undo the whole Disney syndrome. But there's one more, and I really would like your, well, 

[00:38:59] Vanessa: just a question are, are these stories, who are they written for?

Are they, are they children's stories that are written for like illustrated stories or are they written more for adults? 

[00:39:10] Donna: They should be children's stories, but no, they're written for adults. It should be children's stories. And there are authors who are writing more, um, female empowerment versions. But there's one other one.

I think it's really, really interesting because we never really think about all those princes who tried to get through and didn't, and I kept thinking, you know, what's a hedge? How can you not get through a hedge of thorns for goodness sake, a hundred years trying to get through a hedge of thorns? And then I was helping people on the property clean up parts of the property.

And there was a hedge of thorns and it was a little hedge of thorns. I mean, it was probably, you know, as tall as I was and pretty wa you know, three meters by three meters, let's say. It took me three hours to get through that hedge of thorns and I finally, finally thought, oh, I understand it's not fun and it's a 

[00:40:00] Vanessa: big time.

Try goats. I've heard goats can chew throughout anything. 

[00:40:05] Donna: Well, God bless them. I did not have a goat and princes obviously didn't know that. 

Concluding Thoughts and Future Discussions

[00:40:10] Donna: Um, we're gonna pause here because Vanessa and I have so many more things that we find so important about this story that we wanted to continue the discussion. So, uh, thank you so much for listening, but please to tune into the second part when Vanessa and I keep talking about different versions and different interpretations that you may or may not agree with.

So see you soon for part two ly. 

[00:40:31] Vanessa: See you soon.