Jorōgumo: The Seductive Shapeshifting Spider of Japanese Folklore - Fairy Tale Flip Ep: 20

Beware the shape-shifting man-eater.
Jorōgumo, the seductive spider woman of Japanese folklore, lures her victims with beauty before revealing her true form. In this Fairy Tale Flip episode, we dive into Japan’s religious and cultural history—Shintoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and the rise of the samurai—to understand how power, belief, and sacred spaces shaped this terrifying legend. We explore themes of deception, seduction, and control, compare Jorōgumo to spider myths across cultures, and examine the real spider thought to have inspired the tale. Creepy, fascinating, and surprisingly complex—this is an episode you won’t forget.

1. Introduction (0:05)
2. Hosts and Podcast Overview (0:32)
3. Jorogumo Folktale Introduction (1:14)
4. Cultural Experiences in Japan and Korea (3:48)
5. Japanese Society and Customs (8:34)
6. Religions in Japan (12:14)
7. Confucianism and Gender Roles (20:14)
8. Samurai and the Jorogumo Story (22:48)
9. Themes and Symbolism (29:36)
10. Spider Folklore and Real Spiders (44:43)
11. Comparisons to Other Myths (48:59)
12. Gift-Giving Customs (52:14)
13. Final Thoughts and Outro (55:03)

Music Credit
Celtic Impulse - Celtic · Kevin MacLeod

Provided to YouTube by http://incompetech.com

Celtic Impulse - Celtic

℗ Creative Commons Attribution 4.0  https://creativecommons.org/licenses

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Transcript

Jorogumo Podcast

[00:00:05] Vanesssa: One second. Let's do it. Well, welcome, welcome to Fairytale Flip. Uh, this is the November episode, which was originally supposed to be kind of our Octo, our Halloween esque episode, but this is kind of, we're combining the two. Uh, we are talking about Juro Gummo, a Japanese spider shape shifting, uh, kind of monster folktale from Japan.

I'm Vanessa y Rogers. I have a podcast. Uh, what is my podcast? I, why am I forgetting my podcast again? Um, uh, fabric of Folklore. My podcast is Fabric of Folklore and Donnel. Lee Field is my co-host and she has a website for educators called Scaffolding Magic, and we come together. Usually once a month to talk about fairytales, folktales, mythology, and kind of flip them on their head and understand them from, uh, the context of when they were, from when they began, and how their meanings have changed and transformed through, uh, the generations.

And so we are gonna be talking about this. Kind of creepy tale from Japan and uh, Donna is going to give us a rendition of it. 

[00:01:25] Donna: Okay. Yeah. Thank you for, thank you again, as always for that great introduction. And also what we're doing is. Um, talking about the subliminal messages we get from all of these tales and we wanna our listeners to be aware of them.

So today is, um, one of these other kind of, uh, monster stories. I would never have picked it. Vanessa loves these things. She has three young children and they love these types of stories. Um, but then when she, after she suggests them, and I, I show I have a lot of resistance. I finally see the beauty in the story, which is exactly what happened this time.

Once again, there's a beauty to this story. Most of it is just to become aware of what these stories. Really are, are telling of the underlining theme of the stories. So this one, I'm just going to give an overview of the story because Vanessa has given many versions of the stories in, in her face, in her YouTube account, but will also be referring to the different versions.

So generally it's simply, um. A spider Jomo is the evolution of a spider that receives magic powers when it reaches 400 years of life. Um, her, it's a she. It's always a she. Her anatomy changes dramatically. At 400 years, her form evolves. She transforms into a beautiful and attractive woman. She stops feeding on insects and begins to devour humans.

Men. Mm-hmm. She attracts to her nest young men in search of one night stands and the spider, we call it spider demon, attracts young men with her beauty and her melodious music, she plays with the beis. Alright, so how do we feel about that, Vanessa? 

[00:03:06] Vanesssa: The Beis? I don't think I came across that. What is, what does that instrument look like?

Is it a string instrument? Oh my 

[00:03:12] Donna: goodness. 

[00:03:13] Vanesssa: You know what? 

[00:03:14] Donna: I always think that you're gonna do this. And so I didn't look it up, but I will. Um, it's a loot, it's a Japanese loot, so yes, it is a string instrument. Okay, great question. Okay. 

[00:03:23] Vanesssa: I did see, I did see several references to sometimes they are lured in by her music.

Um, but it's, it's not in every story. It's only in a few stories, but that's really interesting. 

[00:03:36] Donna: Yeah. So tell me, 

[00:03:37] Vanesssa: um, let's, let's ground ourselves in the country a little bit. Have you been to Japan or what are, what is your frame of reference for this country? 

[00:03:48] Donna: Interesting because I have been in Japan. My sister spent 35 years, um, as a delegate, a US delegate for the educational system, making collaborations between the Japanese educational system and the US educational system.

So I went to visit her maybe about 30 years ago, and I did not have a great experience. Um, I'm very tall and I was very big. I was much bigger, heavier than I was and the Japanese, hopefully it's better now. But I've, I've spoken about this even to the Japanese, they're very, um, um, they're not as schooled in foreigners as you would hope they would be.

And they make a lot of fun of big white people. And so I didn't have a great time. My sister loved it. I didn't have a great time. I know other people who've had similar experiences, so that's very perfect. Go ahead. I've never 

[00:04:38] Vanesssa: been to Japan. I, I lived in South Korea for a couple years teaching English.

Mm-hmm. And I'm not sure that they were making fun of you as much as they just don't have any sort of filter when it comes to, at least this is what I experienced in South Korea. And I think that this is similar and many Asian countries, um, when it comes to. Uh, aesthetics and how people look, and so they co they're always commenting on people's looks.

One of the things I am, I'm very, my, my heritage is very European, so my undertones of my white skin is very red. I have very rooty complexion when, especially when I'm cold and I do not do well with cold. And so anytime it was cold, which is a lot in South Korea, um, and in Japan as well, my nose gets really red and my students would.

Call me Rudolph because, oh my goodness, because my nose was so red. But this is like, this is just like, I think it's just very cultural to be co constantly commenting on, um, on one's looks, even in like interviews. When, when we would have like zoom interviews for getting a position, sometimes if someone was, uh, not a skinny stature, they would ask them to like, turn around on the camera so that they could see really how large they were.

Yeah. So it's just like a, it's just, um. It's, it's, it's a different way of, uh, seeing they have like, it's kind of a problem, at least in South Korea in like that, there's such a focus on weight. Um, and they would have scales in the bathroom, in the girls' bathrooms. Oh. And it was, it was not, it was not good.

Um, for their acknowledge 

[00:06:23] Donna: they don't have filters. 'cause that's a really nice way to say it. Sorry. Keep going. 

[00:06:28] Vanesssa: Uh, but I think it is, it's acknowledged that it is an issue that they are, um, as a culture trying to, uh, talk about at least, I don't know if they're trying to work with it. Obviously we have our own issue, body shaming issues here in the US They just looked different.

Oh, 

[00:06:43] Donna: big time. 

Yeah. You know, I never knew you lived in South Korea. Why is it we've never chosen a South Korea tale? 

[00:06:50] Vanesssa: I don't know. I guess we'll have to, we'll have to do that sometime. 

[00:06:52] Donna: I think we're going to have to, I'd love to hear more about this because I've never been to South Korea. It's one of the countries I traveled around the world and it's one of the countries I did not get to so 

[00:07:01] Vanesssa: well, the thing about South Korea is it's a very small country.

It's about the same size of Indiana, so it's a, it's, it's like a very small country. Um, and. You know, when the north invaded the south, they destroyed it. It took them like just a few days and they destroyed so much. So, like almost all of their, uh, ancient temples were destroyed during that war. And so a lot of what you see in South Korea has been rebuilt, and so they're not from.

It is, I mean, it's obviously a very old culture and there's a lot of heritage there, but a lot of the buildings that you see are recent. And so in, in that sense, it's not as, um, it's not as exciting because you know, when you're going to Europe and you're seeing these thousands old, um, buildings and you just are in awe of how old this culture is.

South Korea has this old culture, but you don't see it in their buildings and their architecture. So that's, um, always something that I, I found sad. Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:09] Donna: Well, you do see that in Japan, so, I mean, I wouldn't, I always encourage people to travel. I think it's very, very important. I went to Hiroshima, I went to the, the places where the bomb was dropped, and that was very, very important to, to have been there and to see it.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, but personally it was a difficult trip because of that. It was very culturally different, as you say. Um. So let's talk about this because this is, it's a really interesting monster in Japan. 

[00:08:34] Vanesssa: Yes, it is. I just wanna mention, so we talk mostly about South Korea, but I wanted to talk a little bit about Japan.

So Japan, if you think of it, where it is, it's in, obviously it's in Asia, it's to the right on a map. So east never eat, uh, east of South Korea. And China and Russia, it's kind of shaped a little bit like a j Um, it's made of about 6,000 islands. So it's not just one peninsula. It's a lot of different islands all together.

Um, and because of that, uh, it's, they have a lot of frequent earthquakes and, um. There are two like just fun facts. Uh, bowing is a really important etiquette. So in the deeper the bow, uh, the deeper the level facts of respect that you're showing. Um, and then also, and I think this is pretty predominant throughout Asia.

Slurping is a compliment. And you always hear this about, um, like in, in China, like the louder you eat the, you know, the more complimentary you are to the chef. And um, and I, and I, I noticed this as well in South Korea that they would, um, make more food noises. And my chil, you know, children do this as well until you correct them.

And the other day I was asking my daughter, I said. Why do you, why are you eating like that? And she was like, well, it tastes better when I open my mouth. And I was like, 

[00:10:03] Donna: interesting. Wow. It does taste 

[00:10:05] Vanesssa: better, but it's not polite in, uh, American culture and so we don't do it. But, uh, it does actually taste better the noisier you are.

[00:10:15] Donna: That's interesting. 

Okay. And the other thing that I think it's really important to, to mention about Japan is that it's very cl it it was, and still is a very close society, and they literally, um, banned foreigners for coming onto the island for 200 years, from the 16 hundreds to the 18 hundreds. And only by.

Warrior ships coming in, were they did, they allowed people, foreigners to come into the country. Wow. And so they wanted to really maintain their culture and I think that's very important to know. So they still are very vigilant about maintaining their culture. Uh. Oh, 

[00:10:48] Vanesssa: okay. Um, so I wanted to, they don't 

[00:10:51] Donna: like, they don't like the foreign influence.

Yeah. Okay. Foreign 

[00:10:54] Vanesssa: influence. Well, you know, out of all of the Asian countries that I have been to, they're, and I haven't been to Japan, but they have the, the most unique fashion style in South Korea. Their fashion is pretty, um, monolithic, I guess is the right word. They, they dress all very similarly. Um, but in Japan, I feel like, um, from the images and from.

Hearing people talk about, uh, Japanese fashion is it's a lot more outlandish and it's okay to be a little bit more out of the, uh, the rigid norm conformity. So I think that is, that's interesting, um, that you see that a little bit more in, in Japan. But what you were saying about them closing off, uh, foreigners to Japan, those dates that you listed are during the IDO period.

Um. When the Confucianism religion really takes hold of, uh, Japan and I, I wanted to go briefly over the, the three different main religions that we see in Japan because they have a lot of influence on, um, on this, the meanings of the Geor Gummo story. 

[00:12:12] Donna: Great. Okay. 

[00:12:14] Vanesssa: Um, so Shinto is the indigenous religion and it, it comes.

The earliest that they recognize it is from, uh, 300 bc. Um, and it is a nature worship, similar to when we, we were talking about the aboriginal people. It's animist, animistic, uh, in, in that they, every single object people, rocks, mountains, gra a blade of grass, they all are infused with. A spirit or a soul, which they refer to as Kami, um, C-A-K-A-M-I.

And um, it really has a focus on ritual rather than moral. Uh, and they, so there's a right way to do the rituals and a wrong way to do the rituals. And there's a emphasis on being in harmony with nature and with calm and, um, with. Each other. Community cohesion is incredibly important to this, um, religion.

And it is also important to note that during this time when this was the main religion. There were recognized female deities, um, that had a relatively respected spiritual role. Um, most notable is the Sun Goddess, Amma Res, Amma, resu. Um, and there were examples in Japanese society during this time of matriarchal, uh, communities where the, the.

There was a mother or an older woman who was the leader of this, uh, the, the community. And that is strikingly different from later on in Japan. Um. There's a funny quote that I found. I really like this one. In Japanese culture, there is a belief that God is everywhere in mountains, trees, rocks, even in our sympathy for robots or Hello kitty toys.

I, and I, I really like that. So, um, there's no temples, there's, there's no scripture, there's no like being accepted as a member. It just simply. Is it a faith that exists for anyone who wishes to practice in this ritual? Do you have any, um, did you do any research on this religion or thoughts on it? I didn't do the, no, I didn't do the research 

[00:14:42] Donna: on the religions.

Um, I do know because I, I know people who've lived in Japan, for instance, Americans who've lived in Japan and have Japanese culture, um, in their PA and their ancestors. It's really interesting 'cause I'm not sure about the other two religions that you're gonna talk about, but there is a act, a very. Large Catholic population in Japan, or Christian, we could say.

And so there's a lot of things that we ha have in our culture, whether we're Christian or not. In the US for instance, we're very, we're very prudish when it comes to sex, for instance. And that has to do with the story. It's a big part of the story. So I'm wondering if you're gonna bring up this aspect of it that they don't have the qualms that we do in our Puritan society in the States.

Oh, Texas is a lot more free except for the Christians. 

[00:15:27] Vanesssa: Oh, that's interesting. No, I, I didn't come across that at all. So that's, that is interesting. Oh, okay. Um, I wonder where that, that comes from, because I would say that my, and obviously South Korea, my experience in South Korea is not equivalent to Japan.

It's just closer to, to Japan than what we're we experience in American culture. 

[00:15:48] Donna: Yeah. No, I, I had a friend who was telling me, she, she was. She was very free in her relationships in Japan. And I questioned her about it and she said, you don't understand that they don't have the qualms in Japan about having sex with different people that we have in the States.

And it's simply cultural. It's, it's not a judgment. It's, it's why not? Anyway, interesting. So that's, that's my experience with that. Yeah. 

[00:16:11] Vanesssa: Um, okay. So the, the second religion that comes in that has a strong influence on the government and daily life is Buddhism. Um, and it arrived from Korea and China in about the 500, uh, CE or AD there.

Pretty much the same. They mean the same thing. Um, and Buddhism does not acknowledge a God or higher being, but does have a scripture and it does have a cast of people, monks who study that, those ancient scriptures and lessons from Buddha. And it has a really strong influence on the, the government and in factor.

A period called the nara period. Buddhism is used to legitimize uh, there this government's rule, um, and claims to protect Dharma, which has a lot of different meanings, but. In this context, we're just gonna say it's the right way of living for Buddhist, uh, practices. So Buddhist introduces moral teaching, but remember the Shinto, it was not moral teachings, it was ritual, uh, ethical principles.

So like karma, we all, most of us have heard about karma, um, right? Livelihood, how you're supposed to live, and then a moral cosmology, uh, the afterlife, rebirth, and consequences of actions, which is not a part of Shintoism. So it is really interesting when Buddhism comes into Japan, instead of it kicking out the indigenous, uh, religion, it just kind of intertwines itself.

In with Shintoism, because they work so nicely together, they don't have a lot of conflict. And so, um, even today in Japan. You'll see people with shrine, a Buddhist shrine, and a Shinto shrine right next to one another. You'll see, um, people having a Shinto wedding and a Buddhist funeral right after one another.

And so there's a lot of this like, um, it's very circular. They just, it just works well together because they, there's not a lot of conflict. 

[00:18:18] Donna: Okay. All right. And, and, and if, hopefully this won't be too impactful, but again, because sex is so important in the story we're about to talk about, um, with Buddhists, it, they have a little more.

Not, they've more norms about it. The sexual relations are, or they're permitted. However, they're supposed to avoid actions that will cause harm, such as adultery and dishonesty. And that has a lot to do with how the spider is viewed in the story that we're about to talk about. So. Go ahead. 

[00:18:50] Vanesssa: Yes. And I was just also gonna say that, um, when Buddhism comes in, it does have an effect on gender roles and the female, uh, roles in society.

Um, because there are concepts, uh, the five obstructions and three obedience that posits that women are spiritually inferior. And subordinate to men. And so with the introduction of Buddhism, you see the marginalization of women in Buddhist institutions and elsewhere because it's infiltrating all elements of the country.

That's 

[00:19:28] Donna: right. And I know it's a little, it's a little dangerous to say, but from the, the little that I know about Buddhism and I, I have, I do know a lot of people who are Buddhists. There is a discrepancy, but between how male monks are treated in Budd Buddhism and the nuns and the women, and so. Yeah, there is sort of a hierarchy in Buddhism.

And what I wanted to mention about Hinduism, because that's what you brought up first, and that's what we think of Buddhism and Shintoism. That's what we think most people are following in Japan, is that sexual relationships in Hinduism and Hinduism is natural and sacred just as what they believe that there's natural energy in everything we do and say.

And so that again has a lot to do with the. Attitude of sex in the story we're gonna talk about. 

[00:20:14] Vanesssa: Hmm. Okay, so the last religion that I'm gonna mention is Confucianism. And remember when you were saying that they blocked out foreigners and it, this is during the IDO period. Um, and so I'm, I didn't do a ton of research on that period, but that's really interesting.

I don't know who took control. Um. But it, it ends around 1868 and I'm guessing another governance came into that period. Um, but Confucian ethics really emphasizes proper ethics, proper conduct, blind obedience over critical thinking. It has a really rigid hierarchy. Um, and it really is, in some instances can be dangerous 'cause it, uh, can justify authoritarianism.

Um, and it has a. A, a emphasis on respecting elders that file filial piety, um, and social order. And so during this time, the gender roles in Japan. Prior to this we're complex and more fluid. Um, but now when Confucianism is uh, introduced, it's much, much more rigid for women and they're much more marginalized in this social structure.

[00:21:39] Donna: Okay. And then I'm going to add also because it's very important that we add the sexual relationships and con confu, Confucianism is exactly what you were saying about the, the general idea of following this, this religion, it's forbidden. Um, sexuality is, is taboo and it's for forbidden for most people unless there's a forged for formal arrangement.

So it needs to be within a marriage. And it needs to be with the idea that it, it's gonna create another human being. And so in, in other words mm-hmm. Sex outside of marriage is, is, is forbidden. And it's supposed to be for procreation purposes only. Only. So that's a very important, 

[00:22:19] Vanesssa: um, but after the 1868, whoever came in, they changed a lot of things.

And I don't think Confucianism is as. Practice today. Mostly it's Buddhism and Shinto together. Um, and they legalized Christianity as you've said, that there's, there's Catholics in Japan and they allowed for freedom of religion and opened Japan up to new religious movements and global religions. So, okay.

That's really when we saw the change. 

[00:22:48] Donna: Right. So then what's really important in the same period in the IDO period is when the Samurai began. Did you do any research on the Samurai, Vanessa? I didn't. No. Okay, because that's, that's where I started having fun. When I realized that there's a very strong connection between the tail organ or Jo Jora Gummo and the Samurai warriors because of exactly when this tail began to become popular and was created, the Samurai Warriors, very important it began in the Eddo period.

So I just wanted to 

[00:23:19] Vanesssa: talk about 

[00:23:19] Donna: that very briefly. Yeah. If that's interesting to you. 

[00:23:22] Vanesssa: Well, and it's also part of one of the most original stories, uh, because one of the original stories is a, there's a warrior who's walking down the street. He doesn't specify that he's a samurai, but a warrior is walking down the street and he sees a beautiful woman who has a child, and she says, there is your father.

She looks to this warrior. And she says, this is your father. And immediately he recognizes that she's a supernatural being and he pulls out a sword and he slashes her and then they run up, um, to, uh, the attic. And he discovers that she's actually a J Gummo has been feasting on, on humans. So yes, that's definitely, I don't know if in the story it was intended to be H-C-M-R-I, 'cause I think there were different warrior classes, weren't there.

If 

[00:24:05] Donna: there were different warrior classes, I didn't go that into it that deeply, but what I wanted to say was, um, at first I was sort of mesmerized by the story and I thought. This is, is a creepy story. Big spider. Uh, she's awful to men. And I thought, well, maybe this is, maybe I can just make the spider the heroine as I have done in, in most European fairytales, because that's what I do.

And there was, I, I, you know, I actually couldn't sleep last night because I did some reading on this. I started obsessing about it. But there's so much misogynistic language attached to the story. I don't know if, if you realized it, Vanessa. The, whenever someone talks about it, there's a woman enticing a man.

There's an unsuspecting person. He's very innocent. It's a young, handsome man. Um, the spider ensnares her victim. She slowly weakens the men day by day, and there's a lot more, she, you know, that she's a suspicious creature. She turns so dramatically from. A beautiful woman sometimes with a baby into this horrific spider.

And so I was thinking, this is really aggressive and this is really pretty misogynistic. So I was doing a little research and saw that in the Eddo period, the Samurai Warrior was sort of invented, created, and was very, very big part of the Japanese culture. So I said. This has got to be important. So what you've shared about the Confucianism period and the whole and the beliefs behind it, that there's so much rigidity and what I was saying about the sexual relations and Confucianism, that it's really not allowed outside of marriage.

All of a sudden the story made a lot of sense to me. There was more context. So tell me if this makes sense to you, Vanessa. Um, we have this. Beautiful Seductress, um, who lures, who lures young men, young men, innocent men, into her layer and then slowly eats them. Mm-hmm. And for me, what it was. Pretty much was these incredible Samurai warriors.

And I do wanna just talk about a little bit what a samurai is if people don't know or haven't done any research for them. It is such a strict training. There's so much about being a samurai that is very rigid and very difficult to achieve. And if they fail in any respect, then they are rejected from the Sam Samurai.

Um, I'm not sure if it's an a. I don't know if you would say, um, tribe, I, I, I would, I need to find the word, a fighter, some from the, from the group. Mm-hmm. And so if they're not allowed, if they're not permitted to have sexual relationships whenever they want, we know that testosterone for young men is a big part of their lives.

Then all of a sudden they're going to start seeing women as seductress, as this evil kind of influence on them. And it's not them that has a responsibility for being seduced into having sex with, um, someone who's not your wife. It is the woman. It is the woman who is seducing you and enticing you and slowly draining you of energy.

Mm-hmm. So that's how I sort of saw the combination of Confucianism Samurai and the story being created all at one time. What do you think about that? 

[00:27:24] Vanesssa: Yeah, yeah. I, I, I was trying to think back of what knowledge I have of Samurai and I think the only real reference I have is that movie from, with Tom Cruise.

I think it was named Samurai, but I have no idea. Yeah, I didn't, I never saw it. Yeah, 

[00:27:39] Donna: it 

[00:27:39] Vanesssa: was a good movie. I mean, although I saw it in high school, so I don't know if I would think it was good now, but, um. I, I enjoyed it then, but it was, I, I think that the Samurai culture is very fascinating, so it would be interesting to see if we found any tales that were directly, um, in about that as well.

'cause that is a really interesting culture. Well, you, 

[00:28:01] Donna: yeah. You said yourself that in one of the versions that you were talking about. It's a warrior, so they don't say specifically Samurai Warrior, but most of the time we just assume it's Samurai. Um, right. Samurai. But there were different classes, 

[00:28:12] Vanesssa: so it's hard to know.

[00:28:14] Donna: Right. But basically it's one of those things where this, it was so important you could bring yourself out of poverty by becoming a samurai warrior. And just to sort of give it a little more context about why this is. There's such a strong connection between the story of this woman who's seducing warriors into their death.

It's because of the Samurai training. I mean, it was, it was really intense. Let me see if I can find my Samurai training. Mm-hmm. There's physical conditioning, there's martial arts, there's um, physical strength and in spiritual training, and you had to be. Completely adept at the physical training and completely, um, a follower of Zen Buddhism, of sh, of mindfulness, of raho, all these different things.

There's also academic training, so all these different. Aspects of being a samurai warrior. It, I, I didn't see Tom Cruise's Samurai. I expect that it, it showed how difficult it is to become a samurai and so any kind of, uh, distraction is going to be. Pretty difficult. Um, and again, these warriors are full of testosterone going into any battle and living their lives, and so any woman is going to distract them.

So, yeah. 

[00:29:32] Vanesssa: Yeah. 

[00:29:33] Donna: How, where do we go from there? 

[00:29:36] Vanesssa: Um, well, I kind of wanted to talk about some themes and symbolism. What do you think about that? Okay. Let's do 

[00:29:43] Donna: it. 

[00:29:43] Vanesssa: Yeah. Um, so I had five main. Themes. The first one is deception and duality. And you kind of mentioned the deception element as well when you were talking, uh, about being enticed by a, you know, the monster, the the men.

Um, there's a really interesting. Longstanding cultural awareness in Japan of the public face versus your true self. And they actually have a name for it. Um, so the face that you show to the maintain harmony, your facade face is the tme, and then you have a, an interface that translates to true sound. It's your hony.

And so. This really is one of the themes of the story because just like in dmo, she is outwardly beautiful, outwardly gentle, but inwardly, she's dangerous and deadly. And it really mirrors this social caution, um, about trusting appearances, uh, because the surface harmony that is displayed. Outwardly, uh, can conceal deeper motives.

What seems beautiful or desirable might actually, uh, trap us into suffering, which really, once again, bleeds into those Buddhist ideals of, um, illusion. Uh, this is an I idea behind, uh, the Buddhist thought process. Nothing actually exists and therefore not there is nothing of which Maya, that's what the illusion is called, uh, can create an illusionary reflection.

So this is less like we live in the matrix, but more like our experiences and our beliefs and our conditioning really, uh, shapes our perceptions of how we view the world and what's happening around us. And so these. Deceptive appearances can lead to suffering, which is a really huge part of, um, Buddhism trying to a avoid suffering.

[00:32:01] Donna: Well, if you don't mind, I wanna comment on that because it's really interesting that de deception. Sorry, I'm trying to get my hair under control. It's not really, it's not really, um, um, it's interesting, the deception is such a big part of the story, and it is, we're talking, you were talking about d. Dece, um, excuse me, duality, because I was having a really interesting conversation one time.

I was giving a workshop in Oxford. And there was a Japanese delegate there, and she's very young, um, very intelligent, and she's very determined to make more of a connection between Westerners and the Japanese. And she asked me about my experience in Japan and I shared with her the same experience and she was very, very upset about it.

And she said, well, what is it about the Japanese that really, um, that holds you back from having more Japanese friendships? And I was thinking about it. It's not as if right now I'm in Mexico. No Japanese here. I've not seen one person who's from Japan here, for instance. Nah. But I said, you know what? I think it's that I get, I take visual cues from people's facial expressions and that's very important of my communication with them and with, it's very cultural.

It's very cultural. Most Asians, and you need to tell us. Your experience with South Korea, with the Japanese in particular, there's usually a mask. It's from what my experience is that they don't exude much information with their facial expressions, and that's very difficult for me. So I'm not sure if they're being cold or if they're really enjoying the conversation, but I don't see that it's not a visual cue.

And she was fascinated by that. And she also was very upset about that. And she herself actually. Had a lot of visual cues. She had a lot more facial uh, movements than I typically saw in other Japanese. So I'm fascinated by that in the story that this is exactly what's deceptive, and yet it's so much part of their culture.

[00:33:54] Vanesssa: Hmm. I, you know, I didn't, so, so in 

[00:33:57] Donna: South Korea, what did you say? 

[00:33:58] Vanesssa: I didn't experience that at all. Um, I did, I. I found them pretty expressive, so I don't know. Um, yeah, so I, I didn't have experience with that, but I do know, um, you know, in American native tribes, and not all of them, but at least the ones that were prevalent in Texas, I think the Comanches and um.

The Apaches were here. Uh, I think that was a big part of their societies as well, was a stoicism. Right? Not showing emotion on your face. That was a really common thing that threw your opinions. Interesting. 

[00:34:38] Donna: Okay. 

[00:34:39] Vanesssa: Yeah. And so the, the second theme I have, and you've touched on this quite a bit, actually, seduction and danger, uh mm-hmm.

And how Buddhism and Confucianism are really trying to warn against these, uh, these elements. Um. Together. And so in that instance, this story, uh, can see be seen as a morality tale. Um, like how we were talking before. The story really gains prominence during that eddo period when Confucianism, uh, becomes popular and political stability is.

There, but it's also incredibly strict and has a really, uh, hierarchal social order. And one of the values that they are really presenting is, um, the moral or lesson. A man who strays from duty or discipline by succumbing to lust is punished for his indulgence. And so. In this story, uh, we can see it as a metaphor for, uh, the treachery.

Once again, that can lie beneath these beautiful allure and to be careful of temptation, um, because you can be lost to that indulgence. And then in Buddhism, um. It, it teaches that attachment to desire leads to suffering. And so when you, uh, have cravings, uh, that the root cause of suffering is that attachment to, uh, that that desire.

Um, oh, I just disappeared for a second. It looks like I'm back. Um. Including lust, which ends up le le leading to dis dissatisfaction and, um, everything that is impermanent. And so, uh, it's really trying to dissuade people from, uh, indulgence and desire and cravings. 

[00:36:51] Donna: Okay. That's really important. Okay. I'm blanking out on what are the, the women who, the escorts, what are the women escorts in Japan called?

Oh, geisha. Okay, so what you're talking about is really, is really important as part of the story as you're saying. There's a deep cultural belief about the dangers of temptation and deceit, which the story mm-hmm. Pretty much highlights. And it's about the, the potential dangers lurking. I love these words, lurking behind beauty and the consequences of yielding to one's desires.

Without exercising caution. And then we have the geishas who, that that's their job. It's exhibiting the beauty through body language, through music, through the way they speak to the men. And so they are literally seducing the men. Mm-hmm. Bringing down defenses so that there's, so that there's interaction and yet, uh, there's dangerous about this very enticement from the women.

So I see that as important connection as well. 

[00:37:58] Vanesssa: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:38:01] Donna: Alright. What other teams did you have? 

[00:38:02] Vanesssa: I think this is gonna be your favorite one. Power and feminine agency. Yeah. Um, and just a fear against female power. Um, and so I talked a little bit about when Confucianism comes in, how little, um, how little power women have during this time period and the social power of women.

Okay. This. Become severely limited during this time period. And in fact, they did not legally exist within legal ramifications. Um, and a husband could divorce his wife with a simple letter, but a woman had absolutely no legal recourse to leave a marriage even in cases of abuse, mistreatment, um, or adultery.

So she was, she had no way to, to leave the marriage, but he can do it with just a simple letter. So there's very little, um, recourse for women. And so the stories, um, becomes. Uh, a, a story of, um, fear of suppressed strength. So she is a character of vengeful and seductiveness, and you see this happening again and again in Japan and many of their folk tales during this time because they're exploring these anxieties, uh, that women are experiencing, uh, because they have so little power over their own lives.

Um. And, uh, this figure is really supposed to express that, um, reverence and fear for, uh, feminine power. There's also, um, uh, I think that's all, that's all. Oh, no. The story that I was gonna mention that is similar in, in this vengeful and, um, anxiety filled. Uh, theme is Lady io oa. I don't, I didn't look how to pronounce it.

OIWA. And she's a woman who, uh, has been wronged by her husband and then she's murdered and then she comes back as a vengeful ghost to psychologically torment him. And that was a really popular story during that time period. And that's just an another example of how, uh, the story. These types of stories start to pop up more and more as women are trying to figure out, um, how they can regain their agency in this very constricting society.

Um. 

[00:40:41] Donna: Well then I think it's fascinating. Once again, I've been looking at Geisha and it started in the E period, so we have this connection, which is really fascinating to me. We have Confucianism that started with a lot of rules. We have the story that was created where women are, um, the, the devil basically, that they're evil.

There's nothing else but I'm negative. Adjectives regarding this particular monster and women in general. And then we have the geishas, which is li, 

which 

is literally legalized prostitution. I have no problem with prostitution, so this is not a judgment, it's just that all of a sudden we have legal prostitution so that the hierarchy, the highest summarize, can go in and have sex and not be reprimanded for it.

From what I understand, and I think it would be really interesting, someone who's an expert on geishas from, from the little I know about it and I've seen Little Doc, I've seen documentaries, I've read books on it. Who knows if that's true? Because it's a deep part of culture and I'm sure a lot of it is hidden knowledge from people who are not part of the cul from Japan.

And, um, part of the, the community of the geishas. It's empowerment. They are taught to be the best that they can. They're, they're, it's another way of coming out of poverty and serving from in this way, sometimes it has to do with sex. Sometimes it's simply companionship. Mm-hmm. But I think it's fascinating that these things are really coinciding in the I period.

So 

[00:42:05] Vanesssa: yes, that is really fascinating. But, um, the interesting thing about Geisha I think as well, are that they are like the highest rung of prostitution, right? There's, there's other types of prostitutes in Japan, but they are not as respected as the geisha. The geisha hold a really high level of, uh, respect in that society, and that was probably one of the only means for a woman to have that level of, of, of power.

[00:42:34] Donna: That's right. And again, it probably, if we knew more, we could probably say this with more conviction, or I could say it with more conviction, but this is only for people who had money and not all Samurai were wealthy enough to go visit the Geisha popular, the, the Geisha women. And so mm-hmm. This is only for the men who could justify having sex out of marriage because they had money.

Mm-hmm. And so for everyone else, the geisha, the women were, were dangerous for them because they could not, they literally couldn't afford to have that companionship. 

[00:43:03] Vanesssa: The last thing I really wanna touch on is, um, sacred spaces, and this is really important, uh, to the Shinto religion. Um, and we, we talked about how everything in nature and even inanimate objects such as robots and hellos, hello Kitty toys, has this imbued spirit in it called, um, comi.

And so, uh, just as in, uh, many of the stories that we've talked about, there are liminal spaces in, uh, this particular religion and waterfalls, which is where a lot of the stories of the Jura Gummo is, are found. Not all of them, but many of them are found, um, at a waterfall. Uh, this is a, a place of natural power and.

It is a, a, a place where you can seek the divine. And so that's, uh, really symbolic in this story. 

[00:44:02] Donna: Yeah, and that's really important you brought that up because the, one of the other aspects of the duality of the story is the, the contrast between nature and the fear of nature, and mostly in shintoism and, and the idea of nature.

Being the safe, being the sacred, all of a sudden we have a spider here that is feared. And so there is a big dichotomy there about how the spider is, is seen and approached and reacted to. Mm-hmm. So I think that's very interesting. Also, we have a time in the IDO period where in the one hand nature is sacred, and the other one we have this spider that is supposed to be feared.

So there's a lot of confusion going on, not confusionism, but confusion. 

[00:44:43] Vanesssa: No, I know you did a little bit of research on the actual spider 'cause this is, this is a tale that is named for an actual spider in Japan. Uh, do you, do you wanna talk a little bit about that? 

[00:44:55] Donna: You said that I did research on spiders where 

[00:44:59] Vanesssa: I thought I saw it in your notes.

Well, I did a little, I saw it. I saw it in your notes. I know I did, but it, it, okay. Basically, um, have you ever seen an orb, an orb spider? That's the, what we call it, um, sometimes it's called a juro spider. Um, it, it is native to, uh, Asia, but it has, is it invasive? Species now in North America. So it is in North America.

And I've seen one interesting attached to our house, and I remember seeing its giant web and it is a giant spider and it is very brightly colored and quite beautiful in fact. Um, and so the, the story kind of comes from this, this spider that builds these really large conspicuous webs. And the spider continuously gets bigger, uh, through time, and sometimes even birds and bats get caught in.

Yeah. The, the webs and it, um, it will feed on, on this, those, you know, creatures that you don't normally see spiders meeting on. And so that's kind of how the folklore of this tale started because this. Really interesting Spider, which has the exact same name in Japan. Um, but it's written different. So Jo.

Is written differently when referring to the spider as referring to, um, the spider monster. Uh, so entomologists are able to distinguish between if they're talking about folk Taylor a real spider. Uh, but I found that really interesting and, and you should look up the what orb weavers or drawer spiders look like because they can be really beautiful.

[00:46:44] Donna: No, I am looking up because I, I did see a little bit of my research on there and it, but it is less than what you just said. But there are these beautiful yellow, they have long bodies and they're as big as someone's hand. They can be with their feet. Um, they have beautiful yellow and black mm-hmm.

Stripes in their legs and in their body. And they say they have a gold web. Um, yeah, it is beautiful, but. It's their legs will actually extend off of your hand. But people seem to be very comfortable having them. So I don't think they're poisonous per se. They're 

[00:47:17] Vanesssa: not poisonous. Yeah. That's why I looked it up to begin with, because the kids were really interested in, and I wanted to make sure it was not a spider, that what's gonna harm them?

Right. And it sometimes, um, the, the language, uh. Means entangling bride. Uh, that's what, yes. It, it translates to, um, and sometimes prostitute spider, uh, there's I guess, some different ways of translating that, that word, right. 

[00:47:47] Donna: Which actually, which actually buys right into it. I'm saying the connection is between, you know, the prostitute spiders, the one that will ensnare you and the, the warriors who.

Have permitted themselves or have the money to go into a prostitute, to a pro prostitute and have that company, are they doing the right thing? Will they be kicked out of the samurai? Um, clan. Um, they, one other interesting part of this is that the only way, there are only two ways to kill a, excuse me, and one is just love a person with all your heart, which I think is fascinating.

It doesn't say love the woman with all your heart, because actually in one of the versions that you have in your YouTube channel mm-hmm. The man falling in love with this woman. It doesn't save him. But if you love another person with all your heart, then it says you. It's not possible to fall under the spell of the seductive woman.

Mm-hmm. And her hypnotic music. I love this hypnotic. So again, it's all about taking responsibility for loving someone so fully that you would never have sex with someone else because you're in love with your wife or your partner. I think that's interesting. 

[00:48:59] Vanesssa: So what other stories did this story remind you of, um, when you were researching this story?

What, oh, good question. From archetype, the global, global folktales or fairytales? 

[00:49:13] Donna: Well, I mean there's the Greek myth of ar acne, obviously, and acne means spider. And so she, she's, um, she has that. Spider energy, but it has nothing to do. There's no fear about arachni as there is with 

[00:49:29] Vanesssa: Right Have, right? In case anyone doesn't remember that story.

The Arachni is this a story of a woman who, uh, competes with Athena to be the best weaver, and she actually wins and gloats about it, and Athena's angry with her and turns her into a spider, right? 

[00:49:46] Donna: Right. Yeah. Don't gloat. Don't gloat. Don't. When the glasses is around, don't, don't do it. 

She'll turn into a spider.

Right, right, right. You know? Yeah. 

Or something worse. 

And then we have the sirens and the banes, but yes, in European folklores. And, and they also have to do with duality. The sirens are really beautiful and they, they're. Songs lure men onto the rocks again, you know? Mm-hmm. Luing men onto the rocks take a little responsibility for your urges and your lust, but did you find any others?

[00:50:16] Vanesssa: Yeah. Um, so Laona, remember that there was one, 

[00:50:21] Donna: oh yeah, one 

[00:50:21] Vanesssa: or two versions where she actually did lure a man instead of children. Some, some versions. Um, most of the versions she lures children, but there were, there was at least one where she lures, um, a, a male to, to her their death. Um, and then there's.

The Succubus like stories where, um, a spirit comes and drains the life from the victims. I had someone talk on my, my podcast about a boo hag, which is very similar to the, the Succubus. It's an energy vampire, but in, in that version, she actually takes her skin off. And so it's very gross. And I, and there's also the Dear Woman, which is a Native American, uh, story.

And she's a protector of females and she punishes abusers. Uh, so there's, there's very much, uh, that, and then there's shape. There's a lot of shapeshifters in Japanese folklore as well. Um, there's a fox woman. There's a raccoon dog. I'm not really sure why. It's a dog and a raccoon. It's a, a trickery, 10 tanooki.

And then there's a very famous one about a beautiful snow spirit who kills. Travelers. So there's actually quite a few shapeshifters in Japanese folklore. I feel like shape-shifting is not as common in, in um, many folklores, but it seems to be very prevalent in Japanese tales, which. Is interesting. Again, the 

[00:51:52] Donna: duality.

Yeah, it's very interesting. And then we go back to how, how beauty appearance is so important in the Japanese culture. I mean, my sister lived there so long and for her, literally, literally, I'm not making an exaggeration of this. If you're giving a gift, the box is more important than what's in the box.

It's all about appearances. And so this duality is pretty shocking. 

[00:52:14] Vanesssa: Oh yeah. That's interesting. Now I'm curious, do they open the present when you give it to them? 

[00:52:21] Donna: Oh, that's really good. Um, question. I don't know the answer to that. I mean, she would give me a present and she would pass it to me as if she were, you know, Ja I were in Japan and I would open it, but she wouldn't say no, no, don't open it in that moment.

But I'm pretty sure yes you do, because opening it is an art. Admiring the boxes is very important and. And then whatever's in it, whatever's in it can be very strange. 

[00:52:43] Vanesssa: I, I, you know, the Japanese would really hate the way I wrap then because I reuse bags every single year for Christmas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm not a fancy rapper.

I, you know, so I, and I can enjoy someone's good wrapping skills. I love that. But that is, that's not what I'm gonna go for. It's not one of your 

[00:53:02] Donna: strengths. Yeah, it's not. You would not, not one of my strengths. You probably horrified people. You horrified people and didn't even realize it. Yeah, 

[00:53:08] Vanesssa: probably, probably in more ways than one.

It, the reason I asked that was because I remember giving a, a couple gifts for Christmas, um, to my South Korean co-teachers, and we were like, well open it. And they were like, oh, I'm supposed to open it in front of you. Interesting. And that was, that was not something that they were accustomed to. So I, you know, I wasn't sure if.

Um, that was, you know, just where they were from or if it's, you know, throughout all of South Korea or maybe it's an Asian thing. I don't know. Um, 'cause there wasn't, I'll find out. I'll 

[00:53:40] Donna: ask my sister. That's an interesting question. 

Yeah. But it's, 

it's funny because it did bring, bring, um, up one little, one other cultural.

Custom in in Spain. You know, I lived there for a long time and in Spain, or at least in Valencia, you never give something someone that's not in a bag, you have to put it in a bag. Even if it's a bag that you're, someone says, could I do you have some garbage bags for me? You put it in a bag and give it to them.

And the bag, that's for instance from the El Corte gla, which is sort of Bloomingdale's, which is their high-end store. If you give it to them in a. Glace bag, it means you have more respect for them. If you put it in sort of a grocery bag, it's like, okay, yeah, here it is, but I don't really care about you or what I'm giving you.

So, um, these things do translate. Interesting. We do need to learn about them. So again, I offended many people because I didn't know about this in the beginning. They would give me these things in, you know, maybe a pencil and a bag, and I'm thinking, why in the world are you giving me the bag? Just give me the pencil.

But for them it's very important. So the Japanese and how you. 

[00:54:42] Vanesssa: How you receive and give gifts are also important in Asia. Um, you have to do it with two hands. Interesting. Because that is a demonstration of respect. 

[00:54:51] Donna: I've seen that when someone gives you their card, giving a business card in Japan is very important.

They give it to you with two hands uhhuh, and they, you're supposed to take it with two hands. Is that the same in South Korea? 

[00:55:01] Vanesssa: Yeah. Everything is with two hands shaking hands. Um, everything was, is with two hands to show respect. So 

[00:55:08] Donna: I wonder, to me it makes sense that it's to show that you don't, you don't have a weapon in another hand, perhaps that's how it started.

[00:55:15] Vanesssa: Yeah. I is curious what that, where that originated from. I would be, I would 'cause in the United 

[00:55:21] Donna: States. Why? Because in the Western society, shaking hands, you shake with your right hand because most people are right-handed. It means that you don't, at least your right hand is free from a gun. Oh yeah. How dexterous you are, and you can shoot with a left hand is something else, but it's one way of being assured that at least your right hand is occupied.

And that's one reason, that's one of the big reasons why we started shaking hands. 

[00:55:48] Vanesssa: Oh, interesting. I did not know that. That's, that's why that there, 

[00:55:52] Donna: yeah. That's why we were shaking. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Huh. 

[00:55:57] Vanesssa: What about in Europe? So we actually, 

[00:55:59] Donna: I know Vanessa, we are actually at the hour mark. I can't believe it.

I've never been so unaware of, of our time flying by. Is there anything else that we haven't shared about the Jomo?

[00:56:11] Vanesssa: I, I can't think of anything in particular. What did you think about the story? Did you like it in the end? No. No. You didn't like it? Not very 

[00:56:20] Donna: much. I loved your storytelling. I loved it. But it was just this dichotomy of this gorgeous woman being so aggressively hated in every single version that bothered me.

So I enjoyed it as a story, but I didn't enjoy, I wouldn't go back and read it if I had, if I could choose. Mm-hmm. How, how, what about you? 

[00:56:42] Vanesssa: Yeah. Um, I don't think it struck me as, uh. As it didn't grab me as much as some of the others have. I, I thought that, um, it was really interesting and I, I really liked how even when he knew that she was a supernatural being and that she, he would probably, he.

Be eaten by her. He still wanted to marry her because he was still in her thro. 

[00:57:09] Donna: Right. 

[00:57:10] Vanesssa: Um, I thought that was really, you gotta question his, 

[00:57:13] Donna: his values. Right. 

[00:57:16] Vanesssa: But, um, yeah, it, it wasn't one that I, I loved as much as some of the others that we've done. 

[00:57:22] Donna: Well. I think also it has to do with how exciting it is to analyze a lot of the, the witches, for instance and other.

Quote unquote evil characters in the European tales because there's more depth to their characters. At least I found that. Mm-hmm. And in this one, there is no depth. She's, it's a very clear division. She's a beautiful woman. We don't know anything about her character. And then she becomes a spider and all she wants to do is have the man as her meal.

Mm-hmm. So there doesn't, there's no way to dig in and get to know more about her. That's true. And I think that's, maybe that's what we're both picking up on. Mm-hmm. But it's a great story to talk about, isn't it? This is fascinating. 

[00:57:58] Vanesssa: It definitely. Yeah. And it gave us, gave us a lot of research points that we, we wanna learn about Japan.

Right? 

[00:58:05] Donna: Yeah. Yeah. We'll do, maybe we'll do a, a, a second part of it after I speak with my sister and we 

[00:58:12] Vanesssa: Oh yeah, that'd be good. Do a little bit 

[00:58:13] Donna: more research. Yeah. We 

[00:58:14] Vanesssa: could bring your sister on. 

[00:58:16] Donna: That would be great. That would be fun. Alright, so should we, should we, um, close it up? 

[00:58:23] Vanesssa: Yeah. All right, so thanks so much for listening.

Oh, make sure that you're hitting subscribe. I think I forgot to mention this last time. Hit subscribe. Uh, like if you're watching on YouTube, uh, it, it's so helpful for indie podcasts like ourselves because then it shows the algorithm Yes. People are watching and are engaging. And tell us what your thoughts are.

It, did you like it? Did this story grab you? And, um, what would you like us to talk about the next time? Uh, we haven't picked anything for December, um, so we would love to hear your thoughts and suggestions. Until next time, keep the fairytales and folktales alive. Thanks for listening to fairytales. Thanks everyone.

[00:59:05] Donna: Thank you everyone. Bye.