Louhi Steals the Sun, Moon and Fire- Fairy Tale Flip EP: 21

Can you imagine the fear of losing the sun every winter? Would it ever come back?

In episode 21 of Fairy Tale Flip we journey into the snowy landscapes of Finnish mythology to explore the enigmatic sorceress of Louhi from the Kalevala. Together we unpack the cultural and historical significance of Finland’s national epic and how it helped shape Finnish identity and independence.

We dive deep into Louhi’s character—her motivations, her power, and the consequences of her actions—challenging the traditional “villain” label and examining her through multiple lenses. Along the way, exploring the powerful symbolism of fire and light, the stark geography that informs Finland’s folklore, and the ever-present tension between darkness and illumination—especially in the shadow of the winter solstice.

We also draw fascinating parallels between Louhi and other mythic and modern figures—from Demeter to the Grinch—revealing common archetypes that echo across cultures. The conversation widens to consider themes of colonization, wealth distribution, power dynamics, and how ancient stories continue to reflect contemporary issues.

At its heart, this episode is a meditation on storytelling itself—how myths preserve cultural identity, how they help us navigate cycles of loss and renewal, and why the return of the light still matters.

Tune in for a rich exploration of myth, meaning, and the enduring power of stories to transform how we see both the past—and ourselves.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Finnish Mythology
01:03 The Epic Kalevala and Its Significance
04:11 Geographical Context of the Story
05:16 Cultural Beliefs and Animism in Finland
09:32 The Role of Fire and Light in Finnish Folklore
11:34 Parallels with Modern Stories
12:22 Historical Context of Finnish Literature
16:39 The Importance of the Kalevala in Finnish Identity
19:14 Character Analysis: Louhi and Vainamoinen
24:46 Transformation and the Nature of Power
32:04 The Duality of Female Characters in Mythology
34:20 The Complexity of Female Characters in Mythology
37:26 Power Dynamics and Female Leadership
40:28 Themes of Abundance and Hoarding
43:18 The Symbolism of Light and Darkness
46:14 Reflections on Winter Solstice Myths
49:18 Cultural Interpretations of Light and Shadow
52:13 Empowerment Through Storytelling
55:27 Controversies in Mythical Narratives
58:21 The Role of Perspective in Storytelling

Follow us:

Fabric of Folklore website

Youtube channel

Instagram 

Linkedin

Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00.37)
Welcome, welcome to Fairy Tail Flip episode 21. Is that right? I think so. This is Fairy Tail Flip. am Vanessa By Rogers. I host a podcast called Fabric of Folklore and Donna Lee Fields is my co-host and she has a website called Scaffolding Magic that is for educators and we come together once a month and we dive into fairy tales.

However, this month we are diving into mythology, a Finnish tale from the epic Kala Valla, which is a significant literary story from Finland called Lohi Steals the Sun, Moon and Fire. And Donna is going to give us a little short rendition of the story and then we're going to

talk about this amazing winter solstice story.

Yeah, this is a big one, Vanessa. I called Vanessa a few minutes ago and said, my goodness, this is a huge mouthful we've taken on because Loey, which is this really interesting witch, is part of this epic poem that's now one of the most important pieces of literature in the Finnish culture. And the Finnish culture, we're going to go into it, has not existed as long as we think it has. It's really only been about 100 years or more because it's been, it was invaded by different other people, other cultures and stuff. So Loey,

speaker-0 (01:35.574)
Yeah, L-O-W, low, he. That's how I pronounce it.

Right, the only thing I know about Finnish is that the stress is always on the first vowel, so it has to be Loe, so that makes sense. this is part of an epic poem, and the Kalavella is a tale about the heroes of Finland, about real and mythical heroes. And Loe appears in this tale, she's just one little chapter of part of this epic poem. And the Kalavella is this little...

I think it's maybe a thousand or more pages. It's a poem and we can compare that to Homer's The Odyssey. In any case, it talks about up to the arrival of Christianity and the departure of magic, which is very sad. I'm sure Vanessa, you feel that way too. And so the Calabella has a lot of different tales in it. It talks about the adventures specifically here of the sage Vino Moinen. And I'm sure if there's someone who's Finnish who's listening, you're going to cry at that pronunciation. So excuse me.

and how he uses his magic to accomplish great deeds like creating the Kanteli, which is the harp of the Finnish people, and it's a traditional five-string lap harp with a very distinctive sound. And it's also, it's still used in Finnish schools. We need to know who he is because he is very important to the story of Lowy. He persuaded a blacksmith to forge the Sampo, and the Sampo is critical in Finnish history mythology. It's a magic mill that

brines wheat from one side, salt out of another, and gold out of a third side. And this was a bone of contention between two people. And in the end, it really did destroy one of those cultures. We might get into that in the end. So the Sampo, the mill, is a bribe for the witch Lowy by Vino Moinen.

speaker-1 (03:30.486)
And Lowy is the leader of the Pohal. And if you listen to Vanessa's retelling of this tale on her YouTube channel, which is a beautiful retelling, the Pohal is a magic land north of what we now know as Finland, because he wants to marry one of Lowy's daughters, which are always known as very beautiful, and probably very intelligent also, because she is a real crack.

So anyway, Lois powers are vast. She has great magic. At one point, she steals the sun and moon and locks them away. And the tale goes into a little more detail. Vanessa's going to fill in anything I haven't said, but what we want to know is why and what does all that mean? Okay.

So I've been pronouncing it Huyola for the magical realm of the north. How did you pronounce it?

But I, you know, that might be a little bit of a Spanish pronunciation and you're right, because it's poor Joel. They do pronounce the J as a J. Okay.

Okay, so when I looked it up, it looked like it was pronounced as a Y. So I've been pronouncing it with a Y sound.

speaker-1 (04:34.392)
I think that's correct, yeah.

Okay. Yes. so the only elements that I would, so they, um, also there's, she steals fire as well. Uh, but we'll, we'll talk about that. So where do we want to start? I always like to start with geography because I feel like it helps the grind to ground us. And, and so we have a better understanding of where we are. Is that okay with you?

I think that's really important in the story because why is it so important that she steals the sun and the moon? It's heat and light that she's stealing and why is it so important? It's very important for where these, we are geographically located in the story. So please go ahead.

Yeah, so Finland is located in Northern Europe. It is very cold. The mean yearly temperature in the north is 27 degrees Fahrenheit. The capital city, Helsinki. Helsinki. Yeah. of course. I was just trying to read it. And wow, that's really different pronunciation than it looks like.

Helsinki.

speaker-0 (05:44.226)
The temperature, mean temperature of Helsinki is 38 degrees Fahrenheit. And even in the southern districts of Finland, there's seven months of winter. In the northern realms of Finland, they lose the sun for one to two months depending on how high up, how north they are. And so this story is really relevant

to the people of Finland because this is a reality that they experience every winter. The sun disappears for an extended amount of time and it's the story is of basically will the light return? Will the sun ever return? Is the sun promised? And so I think, you know, living in these places prior to having

knowledge of the science of why the sun would disappear would be incredibly frightening. I cannot imagine living in a place where the sun just disappears and then you wonder, will it come back? Will we ever see the sun again? I even I live in the South and sometimes I'm just like, my gosh, how much longer are we gonna have to endure this cold? And it's not cold, you know? Like we're all gearing up because we're about to get some ice.

In Texas, we're all worried that we're gonna lose electricity because the towers don't seem to be able to handle ice. anyways, everyone's stocking up and the grocery stores are currently being... The shelves are bare. But anyways, back to Finland. The country is about the size of Montana or New Mexico, but there's only about five

6.6 million people Which is quite sparse. So there's not a whole lot of people probably because it's such a cold place to live and the People of Finland they believe have been living there for nine to ten thousand years They believe people began inhabiting shortly after the ice age and and the religion prior to

speaker-1 (07:40.014)
Yep.

speaker-0 (08:07.934)
the conversion to Christianity was strongly animistic. And we see this time and time again in almost every single culture we've talked about. This has been the type of religion that they've had prior to Christianity coming in where they believe in spirits inhabiting the world around them. the forest, the trees, the stones,

And one interesting element, I don't know if you came across this, the Sivo lakes, I don't know if that's how you're supposed to pronounce it. They're very deep lakes that are clear fed and they often don't look like they have any sort of inlet. They are believed to have an underneath lake that leads to another world, another realm. Oftentimes it's like an underworld where the dead

love that. I love that.

speaker-0 (09:03.968)
and spirits live. And so that was a belief of that religion. And also, and this is part of the story as well, they believe that fire is a part of the sun, is that little piece of the sun. And so we see this element in the story. She didn't talk about it when she was giving the summary, but at one point,

Donna, she means Donna when she says she.

At point she steals, so Lohi, Lohi steals the sun and the moon and then she goes and she steals all of the embers out of everyone's hearts and she, so she takes their fire as well. And so then the sky god, Uco, he's even like, wait, what's happening? Why are my hallways so dark? Why is everything so dim? And he takes his fire sword and he hits it along the edge and he creates a little infant fire.

And the, the bard that Donna was speaking about, who is basically the hero of the story, he calls down that fire and this fire is wild. It's like a toddler. it's referred to as like infant fire and it basically just like starts fires everywhere and they have to go and catch it and they have to tame the fire. But, this is a part of their, their belief system that the

The fire was a part of the sun. so having that fire in your hearth, in your home is like having a piece of the sun in your, in your house.

speaker-1 (10:46.518)
Okay so finesse that's really interesting i wanted to make a comment about just that part where it says she stole the fire from the hearse and left all their homes cold and cheerless now did that remind you of any of our children stories today by any chance.

stealing.

Okay, I thought immediately of the Grinch who stole Christmas, who goes around and takes all every single piece of Christmas, the fire, the wood, every single ember from all the little houses. And this was what I thought we were going to do in the beginning. If you remember, I thought we were going to talk about paganism and we're going to present some stories about how the church has actually manipulated a lot of the traditions and the myths and the lore of pagan

pagan beliefs into what is now known as Christianity. Now the Grinch who stole Christmas, you could say it's a Christian tale. It was published in 1957. But the point is that there are so many elements of pagan stories that are now sort of borrowed or placed into Christian Christmas thinking. anyway, I just want to, I thought that was really fun.

really great connection. It is very much like the Grinch who just goes in and steals every last piece of Christmas out of people's homes. She's basically doing the same thing, right? She's stealing their warmth. She's stealing their joy. She's creating a sense of cheerlessness in their homes. So yeah, that's a great parallel.

speaker-1 (12:21.166)
Yeah, although I have to say towards the end, Vanessa, I am going to refute the idea that she's stealing all these things and she's creating all this, you know, like darkness and negativity because there is a positive side to hers. You know that I always find the positive side of the witch. So that

Yes, and I cannot wait to hear your rendition of Lohé. Okay, so the history, I'm just going to go into a very short element that you mentioned already. So Finland was basically ruled by Sweden for 600 years. And it's a great point of contention in Finland. The Finnish language was really repressed. The Swedish language was the

was forced to people and it was the language of the elite and anyone who was anyone spoke Swedish. At one point during the Napoleonic Wars, Sweden is lost to Russia and so Russia gains control for nearly a hundred years from 1809 into 1917 and this is the time period that the Calavalla is recorded

And it becomes incredibly important in the independence and the push towards independence for the Finnish people, this work of literary collections of these ruins. And so this, I guess, this movement is really spurred on

by this collection of stories and poetry that creates the mindset that the Finnish people should have their own autonomy in there. They should be able to rule themselves. And so they are able to get their independence in 1917 at the start of World War I.

speaker-1 (14:25.44)
No that's beautiful and it's really important to know also that I used to go to Finland a lot I loved Finland I wanted to live in Finland and somehow I came to Mexico? Because the universe was saying you're not going to do really well up there. is cold, it is cold. Anyway I think Finland is magical just the whole thing you don't have to go to Puyol up the land in the north to find magic the whole country is magical. What I just wanted to say is that the Swedes and the Russians still have a huge impact on the Finns and

One of the reasons why the Kalavela is so important to them is because we all know and for different cultures when you get your identity back or when you get it for the first time, you hold on to it vigorously, viscerally. So the people, I used to go to Oulu, which is on the very Eastermont side of Finland and it shares the border with Sweden. so everybody on that side, pretty much everybody is bilingual, Finnish, Finnish and Swedish. And on the other side,

People are very aware of the Russians there isn't people are not bilingual in Russian not necessarily it's not taught in the schools there's a lot of mistrust there and today there's a lot of I wouldn't say fear because I don't like that word but they're very cautious because fit it's so close that the Russians could and may come back you know decide that they want same thing back.

Yeah, and they do share a territory. What is it pronounced?

we talking about the water, the body of water or no?

speaker-0 (15:55.63)
Karelia is a piece of land that was divided between Finland and Russia. And I don't know who, I don't know the history behind that, but that piece of land has been divided between the two countries.

There's always that thing hanging over them. So when I started teaching there, one of the teachers, one of the principals, the directors asked me to read the Kalevala. It was very important to her that I read it. She wanted to make sure that I knew about the history of Finland.

So you're pronouncing it different than I'm pronouncing it. I'm pronouncing it Cala-vala and you're saying Cala-vela?

You're absolutely right because I just said the stress is always on the first vowel. So you're absolutely right.

Okay, so let's talk about the Kalavala a little bit more. was, it's associated with Elias Lundrut. I believe, don't, you know, all of these pronunciations are, we're not gonna, so we apologize in advance. We're trying our best. I looked up how to pronounce these things, but you know, we, I've never lived in Finland or even visited, but I would like to one day.

speaker-1 (17:10.316)
I would love it.

I don't want to go on this whole. And so the first publication comes out in 1835 and the gentleman is a doctor who turns into a folklorist. And originally he's actually collecting enchantments of medical enchantments. mean, his first publication is just about the folk.

healing remedies. And then he begins collecting the ruins from the countryside. And then there's another doctor as well that is also attributed with starting this collection. His name is Zacharias Tobilius and he starts in, he first publishes in 1822, but he spends the last 11 years in his

bed. And so he basically has everyone come to him. he has all of these merchants and fishermen and countryside people come to his bed and they recite their poetry. And he's collecting it from his bed. then he publishes it. And then Lundrutt is the one who takes up the torch and continues

his collections. the stories are printed in the 1800s, like I was saying before, but they believe that the stories could be as old as 3,000 years old. They're just incredibly old. They could even be older than that, but it's hard for them to trace exactly.

speaker-1 (19:03.308)
Okay, just to add a couple of little more facts there. He wrote the book, Elias Lundrott, hopefully that's the pronunciation of his name. He wrote it from the traditional rune songs of the Finnish, but he really was very selective on what he chose to include in the Kala Valla. And again, it's always what we're looking for. I'm looking for both two sides of

any character development and you need to really do a little bit of searching because she's usually portrayed lowly lowly scuse me lauri with the which we're talking about

The witch. The sorceress.

Yeah, she's usually very negative portrayal, especially in his rendition of the story of the epic poem. But if you look deeper, you'll find that she actually could be considered a heroine. OK, very tangent, very tangent. Vanessa, I've got to this. I was just looking at this woman who I used to teach the Odyssey. so I found a translation that I thought was pretty decent, pretty readable, pretty digestible. But there was always something that bothered me and I wasn't really sure what it was. And I realized that

When I found that there's a woman who translated recently, she looked at Penelope, the female protagonist, she looked at Homer himself and his really dubious choices. So I'm going into this because it depends on how you look at the characters. It depends what gender you are. It depends how empathetic you are as a translator, as a reteller of stories. You know this, you're a storyteller. You're going to bring to the highlight

speaker-1 (20:44.748)
what you think is important and how you think it's important, depending who you are. And so with Lowy, she is portrayed as a negative witch because that's how people usually like to think of witches, but you can see her from another side and he chose to portray her as negatively. And so hopefully before we finish, I might be able to convince you that there's a positive side to her.

Yeah, and I think that, you know, in today's modern retellings, there's a lot of retellings based off of like a villain. And I think that that's really important to consider. And I think in this story in particular, because she is just kind of a compound of evil composites. But it's really from the hero's perspective.

And I'm just calling him the Bard because I wasn't sure how to pronounce his name. The magical Bard who sings things into creations. what did you, how did you pronounce his name?

Are we talking about Elias Lundra?

No, no, no, the bard, the one who sings things. no.

speaker-1 (21:52.48)
goodness you

so nicely, it was so beautiful

Okay, yes. And so the story is entirely from his perspective, but it would be really fascinating to see what the story would look like from her perspective. would love every telling from that perspective.

Go ahead, sorry, Vanessa.

This story is really has such a strong influence, not just across Finland, but even across the world. JR Tolkien was said to have been highly influenced from this epic. Max Miller and Jacob Grimm both spoke highly about this epic being one of the world's best.

speaker-0 (22:52.894)
collection of stories. although we're kind of poo-pooing on this collection in some ways, this is an incredible work that we're really grateful was collected even if there are perspective issues.

Great and the finish are going to be sort of unassuming people they're very very their introverts in general and they would admit that as well and so their mythology doesn't come to the forefront most of the time and so. Tolkien finding it and taking certain elements out of it is quite an honor but also he knew that nobody was gonna really identify it in the moment because nobody really is familiar not many people are familiar with finish mythology and what i wanted to say about venom oinan the the bar.

who tells the story is it's really important that you just said that because he saves her but he also becomes her enemy and so it's going to be very tainted his view of what's going on. He stole the sample that he made for her. He tried to steal it back and so he became her enemy and she actually, this is one of the ways that she is a heroine, she saved the Finnish people from him, from his sort of narcissistic...

Control over what he wanted everything to look the sample gave an incredible wealth unlimited wealth and that is never good for any population or person. So she was trying one of the reasons she might have stolen the sun and the moon and the fire is to tap down the greed of the entire population. Why don't we go there have it if we go.

Okay? Yeah. Okay. I want to hear this because that is that was not my my interpretation of the story. So I want to hear I want to hear this.

speaker-1 (24:47.64)
Alright, so let's start there. Let's talk about what's her name first of all, because okay, so let's start there. Let's talk about what her name means and then we'll go on from there. Okay.

So it's derived from the word Lavi, I don't know how to pronounce it, L-O-V-I, and it means a crack or gap in the earth. So she literally means an entrance to another world. And she is the ruler of the magical realm of Poyola, which is the northern realm, and is not really of our world, although you can travel there.

I guess with magical elements.

Okay so that's really important to me because she is actually an instigator of transformation you come into this gap her name literally means a gap and so when you're interacting with her you are going to have some sort of transformation either negative or positive you can be you can decide which one is going to be. She steals the sun and the moon why does she steal the sun and the moon for nessa and your story what do you say.

Okay, so there's a whole battle scene that happens prior to our story. So basically, there is a contract that is made between the blacksmith, the bard, and Lohi. And she requests the Sampo to be created, and so the blacksmith creates the Sampo. But she...

speaker-0 (26:17.068)
keeps it for herself, whereas they believe that it is something that should be shared amongst the entirety of the world. It is not something that should be hoarded. It should be something that should be distributed equally. She holds it only for herself and the people of her land. And they don't believe that that is something that she should be able to have because it is something of such immense power. And so they go,

to try and steal it from her. There's no negotiation, I guess, prior to this. And then they have a battle. In the battle, the Sampo is destroyed and it is broken into hundreds of pieces. But it is still, even all of the broken pieces that flow up into the shore because it's in the water when it's broken.

gives wealth more equally distributed amongst the world. And so even its destruction doesn't destroy the abundance that it gives, but it prevents people from hoarding that wealth to themselves.

Okay, so it's a perfect point. So I know when I was reading your notes, it's obviously from the research which says, you know, Lowy didn't want to share abundance with the rest of the people. And in my perspective, what she was doing was saving the people because it became such a bone of contention, the sample that you can, you know, we're all sparks of the divine. Hopefully you believe this. We are all literally just sparks of the divine and we all have.

abundance and infinite wealth because we are sparks of the divine and the divine is abundance and wealth. However, we have not learned yet as the human people how to use that wealth to use it evenly, balance in a balanced way. We use it selfishly most a lot of the time. And this is a great example of it. People were fighting over the sample and using all of its wealth to better themselves. And then it started being a bone of contention, as I said before.

speaker-1 (28:30.486)
And it was almost the downfall of both people, the Poi Hoi Ol, the Northern people, and what's now the Finnish people. So what she was doing was spreading, you know, the destruction of the sample meant that it was spread around and not one piece had more power than the other. And it also had less power than everything together so that people had to consider, be more discerning about the wealth that they were earning.

But she doesn't do the distributing. She keeps it to herself and it only becomes distributed once it's destroyed in the battle.

Right so we have to decide was it destroyed or did she let it be destroyed you know that's a whole perspective. So that's one thing she did hold it prisoner in a mountain we also want to look at the blacksmith so again i'm going back to her as a figure of transformation a blacksmith also is a figure of transformation she asked the blacksmith to make the sample for her and the blacksmith is symbolism of blacksmith is spiritual growth.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

speaker-1 (29:35.584)
It's using fire, which is a mystical element in itself. A blacksmith is usually known as a symbol of creation and strength and also societal innovation. So a blacksmith could be seen as the bringer of order to chaos. In other words, she deliberately asked a blacksmith to make the sample. She's a figure of transformation asking another figure of transformation to help the society, but it got out of control and that's where the battle began.

How does that sound?

Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective.

All right, and then we have.

So we're talking about Lohi and the perspective of changing the perspective. There is something that is interesting. and this is a point of contention with scholars because Lonnret kind of merges two individual females together. Lohi and then there's another woman,

speaker-0 (30:43.918)
called Loviatar. in the story, the Kalavala, they are one and the same, but some people argue that they should actually be two separate women. And Loviatar is important because she is at one point impregnated by the wind, deity, and then she gives birth to nine diseases and plagues.

And at one point in the story, we didn't really talk about it, but during the time of darkness, plagues start to run rampant through the Finnish people. But because she's impregnated by the wind deity, she is referred to repeatedly as a harlot, which, you know, people... A lot of times when people want to put women down, this is a common

way that they refer to women.

taking disempowering women, you know, by calling them names. And so this is our chance, Vanessa, to give her back her power that she she was very happy to take for herself. you know, taking the sun away, this is another reference to another Greek myth. She took this, she stole the sun and the moon and the fire and the crops began to die. Farmers couldn't farm. Everything is dying. It's like the Greek myth with Demeter and Persephone.

I immediately thought that too.

speaker-1 (32:16.31)
Okay, so these are occurring themes which I love but again is it do we say Demeter was evil actually we don't which is really interesting and Greek myths we never considered Demeter to be evil and yet.

She's a grieving mother.

But thank you. She's a grieving mother. She did it on purpose. So could we see that there was some there was some purpose behind what Lowy was doing also? And I'm to go back to this different translation of Homer by this woman. I've got to find out her name. I'm so sorry. Apologies to the author, because she is incredible. We say Persephone, excuse me, Persephone and the Homer and Homer waiting 20 years was crazy, you waiting for her husband 20 years. But she was

Penelope, thank you. But she was actually genius in keeping these these suitors at bay for 20 years. There's there's another thing because you brought up the word harlot that term, there were her maidservants that were in the male translations, they were always lovers of the suitors, they were always willingly giving their body to the suitors and having fun with them. In fact, in the in Greek, their

Thank

speaker-1 (33:30.082)
The term was slaves. were not her maidservants. They were slaves. Slaves had to do what anyone with money had wanted them to do. So in other words, they had no consent. And so this is always the translation or the interpretation of someone who's writing it down. And okay, so you and I are both reacting to two different interpretations of our research, which I find fantastic.

Yeah.

speaker-0 (33:55.33)
And it also makes you wonder also who are the poetry singers? I'm not clear, because they call them ruined songs. I'm not sure if they're sung or if they're recited. I don't know how they were told in story form. But I'm curious who the tellers were, because in some cultures, tellers are

are women, but it seems like a lot of the tellers were males. So even if Lanra is taking down these stories, if the primary original sources that he's getting these stories from are also males, then they're also going to have these perspectives that are from their own livelihood and their lives.

I think that's a really important point and we're not going to know because history will usually give the patriarch and patriarchal version and names and we know very well even in classic literature that many female authors use male names just to get just to get published. We're not going to know. That's why it's up to us to stress our good points here.

I found a good quote from a scholar who focuses on mythology and folklore and she says, Many ancient crone goddesses were demoted when their people were conquered or converted into hags, evil stepmothers, forest dwelling witches, and other villains of fairy tale and legend. Thus, often find crone goddesses appearing as evil or threatening figures, and the power she represents can still be threatening today to those who are uncomfortable with women of power.

That's exactly what I'm reading right now, Vanessa. One of my notes is that we can see her as a leader and how many men are intimidated by a female leader. Unfortunately, many, but we can see her as charismatic and a determined leader who often outsmarts the male heroes in the Calabasas. She's a force of nature, but feminine strength.

speaker-1 (36:09.558)
And a lot of people see her as independent power, which also men are intimidated by. A lot of women are too, but she challenges that patriarchal norm and she is the most powerful woman in Finnish mythology.

And she's different than other villains that we come across in part because her actions are not purely selfish. They are for the people of her land and her world. So she's not just acting out of greed, selfish greed. She is acting in terms of what she believes is best for her people and her land and her realm.

That's right when we talk about the sample she went to battle because the heroes the men the patriarchs were trying to use the sample to further their needs and what she was trying to do is get it back because it wasn't good for her people so what you're saying is i absolutely agree with she was not being selfish she was being self i wouldn't go so far saying self less but she was being a leader.

Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (37:16.02)
No, no, I agree. She wasn't being cruel per se. She was just, she was just fighting for her own, her own land. And I actually had to look this up because at one point I was like, but I can understand why she would be angry if they stole something from her. there is this, this element that we haven't really talked about when she has this contract, she fulfills the contract.

but she doesn't really create a reciprocity. She doesn't create a relationship with the people of her contract. So she marries off her daughter in the contract, I believe, to the blacksmith. I think that is part of the deal. He creates the Sampo and she marries off her daughter to the blacksmith.

But at one point she tries to back out of it. So it seems like she's not really interested in having a relationship, which is what these alliances are intended to do. And so that's part of where it's perceived that she is villainous because she's not willing to have these relationships with the other.

world, the Kala Vala, the land of the normal people.

of right, who are now the Finnish people. Yeah, again, it's, she made it, she made a pact with the blacksmith and then the other heroes got involved and took advantage of the contract. And so she backpedaled, but for very good reason. And one of the things we can see is that when she, she took the sample back, let's go to the sun and the moon, when she stole the sun and the moon, who is it? The Vainomen and the bard was actually the one.

speaker-1 (39:17.41)
where the beards was burned and his hands were burned. Was it him or was it the blacksmith?

It was a bird.

It was the part so let's look at the beard beard is a symbolism of power and wisdom and maturity and it was burned which is a really strong indication that what the bar that the storytellers are saying is that he was in the wrong his wisdom was obliterated he was wrong and trying to get the sample back and it's a shift in ancient divine authority so again she is.

the instigator of spiritual transformation and we see right here with his burnt hand and his burnt beard that she was changing the dynamic, she was changing the paradigm. I love that.

So let's talk a little bit about the themes of the story because I think they're really important and I kept making references to what's happening in our world and one of the ones that we've talked about several times is circulation versus hoarding. And we see this even more evident today than in any other time period. There's so much inequality of wealth.

speaker-0 (40:33.71)
the wealthy have so much more wealth than the rest of the people of the world and they continuously want to hoard that wealth and so when I was

What are they going to do? They cannot spend that in one lifetime.

Yeah, how? Why? Why do they need more wealth than they already have? And so this is a theme of the story of someone in the original telling, Lohi is the one who is hoarding the wealth and the heroes of Cala Valla are the ones who are being depicted as kind of the Robin Hoods, right? They're wanting to steal the sample, but

for redistribution. They're wanting it in order to provide it to the world. this contrast between abundance and power and how those who have the abundance hold all of the power, they monopolize the power, I think is super relevant to what is happening in our world today.

Yeah, I love that and as you're speaking I realize that that's. They're trying to they're focused on the sample and she steals the sun she steals the light she seals that he and keep it to herself which means that she is putting everyone else in the darkness and shadow and shadow is about. Intersection shadow is a moment when you need to go inside and think I don't see anything outside there's no heat there's no light.

speaker-1 (42:19.584)
What is there inside of me she's literally giving her people the opportunity to become more introspective and more knowledgeable about who they are where is what they're doing is simply focusing on wealth. I know you're laughing because of course it's completely different side of it right.

I love how you're able to turn these stories like this. It's a great skill that you have.

I believe it though, I mean I believe what I'm saying.

mean, yes, but it's really, it's just very imaginative that you're able to take these stories and turn them like this. I really like that you're able to do that.

Thank you but it's just you that it's how i see the world as well when you're saying that she is now blamed for creating how many diseases in the world.

speaker-0 (43:17.39)
After she picks the son. Her daughter, has nine daughters of petulance and plagues.

my goodness. Okay, so again, it's all a perspective. So I am now reading this book called the anatomy of the spirit. And it's all about how our bodies and I believe this for most of my life anyway, our bodies manifest what our emotions are, you know, doing to us inside. Illnesses are really just our body telling us there's something you need to focus on, you either need to become more introspective, you need to be more kind, you need to stop.

You need to forgive someone, etc. etc. We need to change our emotions and our physical ailments if we have them will change as well. And so when she says, you know, nine diseases came to the planet, when I say disease, dis-ease, know, unease. It all depends on if you look at it, a disease can be the best thing that has ever happened to you. If you take it, I know you're going to laugh, but I really like this. The disease can be the best thing that happens to you if you go in and find out where it came from.

and then you can heal yourself from it. So she is my hero. She's my heroine.

I love that. But it's interesting, you know, because when we first were discussing whether or not to do this story, you originally didn't want to do this story because you didn't see the complexities in her to start. made you change your mind?

speaker-1 (44:42.028)
I think when I saw all of your notes, thought, my goodness, this is just so heavy. And then it just kept, I think this happened to the last time also, then your notes that you sent me, and I know you don't do this intentionally, but I just have fun with it. It was just saying how horrible she was. And I said, she can't be this horrible. She can't be, there's another side to her. And so I just, I looked deeper. I just looked deeper.

Well, I love that. I love that. Okay, and so obviously there's a lot of symbology and themes around the winter solstice, which is really what I was interested in exploring because, you know, there's not a ton of tales that talk about the winter solstice. There are more that now that I started doing this research, I found a few more. But I really like this story because

There's this fear that this, the light will never return. And if the light never returns, all life on earth perishes. And I just can't imagine living in a time period when this was a true fear. This is kind of the emotional core of mid winter. This story really personifies the fear that went along with

what happens during the wintertime.

Yeah, and I'm wondering because we don't live in the far north. I'm wondering if there are more myths than we think there are about the winter solstice. Because it is a scary time and the only way to get through it is to sit by a fire and tell stories about the sun. Now we have...

speaker-0 (46:16.014)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (46:27.298)
Technology and I look at real sometimes my one big vice is looking at reals on Facebook I'm sorry I'm sorry to admit that but it's true and one of the reals that comes up is for instance in in the slavic countries you have parents who have flashlights they put on their children's heads take them outside and go spend as much time during the day outside as I can even though it's completely dark they have the flashlights so in other words it's a way.

of showing them that life goes on even though it's completely the sun is not there. It's very challenging though. would be very challenging for most people.

Yeah. One of the themes I came across is the yearly arc. Dissent, trial, and return. The light is stolen when the days shrink and people enter a time of not enough light and not enough warmth or certainty. And then there's the trials and quests. The heroes heal plagues, chase wildfire, face northern dangers, forge keys, mirroring the work of patience and the mutual aid needed to survive in the winter.

And then there's the return. The real sun and moon are released. The world brightens once more and this matches the solstice hinge where the days stop shortening and very slowly life returns to brightness.

You know you're leading right into the why we always have light in the winter holidays even in texas where it's not gonna be dark for very long it's much longer in christmas than it is in the summer we have light you have christmas lights you have honey can lights you have and what are the lights everywhere. I love sorry you love and you go to the mall in florida you know in the middle of the day when it's it's.

speaker-1 (48:16.042)
you're sweating because it's so hot and yet there are lights everywhere because it's to remind us that even though it's winter, light's coming back. So it's just become a tradition now, but it was for real important, really important reason to remind you the light will come back.

And prior to electricity, even where we live in the South, it would have been very important here as well. I mean, now that we have electricity, it kind of changes everything. We have the ability to have light all day long 24-7. you know, prior to that time period, the candles and the Yule log, having that cosmic light in our own homes would have been incredibly

important and we still continue with that tradition because it brings beauty and joy and cheerfulness into our lives when sometimes the winter makes us feel sad and dark.

Right, because again, we're not, it's a global culture. We're not taught, there are little pockets of people who are, we're not taught to sort of embrace the shadow. We're not taught to embrace the darkness because shadows are about going inside. It's our hidden aspects of ourselves. And most of us don't want to know. When we do, we become fuller people, but it's about transformation. People are afraid of their dark side. People are afraid of the dark.

People are afraid of spiritual transformation. A lot of people, not all. I'm not, I don't think you are Vanessa, but it's the darkness, it's the physical, the literal and the metaphorical darkness that scares us. And that's why it's so scary that Lowy steals the sun and the moon. How dare she? She does it, again, she does it to get people to become friends with their darker side.

speaker-0 (50:16.056)
The fact that we have electricity kind of prevents us from slowing down. Whereas in the natural order of the world, the winter was a time for reflection, as you were saying before, and slowing down was a time for sitting around the fire and telling stories and not being so busy. But we don't slow down anymore. We don't take this. We don't take this winter time to be reflective.

or stop and tell stories by the fire. We just keep going and it's to our own detriment.

And we need to sleep more in the winter. I mean, there are no lights and we're supposed to be sleeping. That's our biology, but we don't do that either. The electricity keeps us awake and that's not healthy for us either. So good points. Good points. All right. So where have tell me, go ahead, please.

was going to mention three other stories that I found that are tied to the Winter Solstice. So the first one is the Raven Steals the Sun. Have you heard of this one? Okay, so it's an Inuit tale. And basically a selfish wizard cuts a hole, a male wizard, he cuts a hole in the sky and he steals the sun and the moon and he seals the world in darkness.

Sounds familiar.

speaker-0 (51:39.726)
People start to suffer and the Raven, who is a trickster character, and he's not generally a hero. He does things only when it benefits himself, but he finds himself in darkness and he doesn't like it. And so he finds a way to make his way into the world. He loses a feather on purpose and it ends up becoming a baby. It ends up becoming a baby and so he is disguised himself.

as a baby of this wizard household and he's able to steal the sun and the moon back from this wizard family that has stolen it into another realm and he brings it back into the real world and this cycle happens every year where the the raven has to refree the the sun and once again this is the Inuits live in

the very northern areas of the globe. And so they deal with pure darkness for a month to two months, depending on where they are geographically.

Okay, and just one point. You said wizard. He's called a wizard in the story. A wizard usually has a positive connotation. He's not called a sorcerer. He's not called a warlock. He's not called a necromancer. He's called a wizard. So right there, we have a man who is given more credit for his evil deeds than the witch does.

Very true! What a good point.

speaker-1 (53:10.936)
Thank you. What is the other story?

Maui Snares the Sun. And you know, actually, when I was talking to my daughter about this story, she asked me, is the story about Maui? So I don't wonder if she heard a story about Maui that I didn't know about because this was new to me. I had not told her this story. So maybe she learned this in school. Yeah, I don't. She's in a dual language program and they use folklore as part of the curriculum. So it's possible that she

She learned it in school. But basically the story goes that the sun races too fast across the sky, leaving very little daylight during the daytime for people to get any work done. so Maui and his brothers go chase the sun and they snare it in nets and then they beat it so that it will move more slowly so that they can lengthen the day. And that's how they're able to fix the problem of

the two short of days they're able to lengthen the day by beating the sun. This seems like a very male solution.

Because do we have to say that Lowry does not beat the sun? She simply takes it and puts it in a mountain and later it comes back whole and healthy?

speaker-0 (54:22.158)
There's no violence.

No, no, not necessarily. Okay.

Okay, and this one is funny. This one I found very humorous. It's an African tail, it's a bush man who is referred to as the sun man because when he's born, he has the sun in his armpit. And so his job is to go into the middle of the village and hold up his arm to provide light for all of the villagers to see.

And as he grows old, he becomes lazy and he sleeps more. I guess not lazy, but he needs more sleep. And so he will nap in the middle of the village and the children will come and they'll lift up his arm so that people will get more light during the day. And at some point, the mothers of the village, and I'm not sure why they don't do this, but they have their children lift up this old man, Bushman.

with his arm up so that the sun is shining and then they start spinning him until he flies up into the sky so he can provide light for all of the villages not just the one village and so that is how the distribution of light occurs when it was only originally in one village from a man's armpit.

speaker-1 (55:50.88)
Well, I love that I could say a lot of things about that story, but the only thing I'm going to say is, know, of course, the children empower the children, but then take it take and get involved.

Empower the children. Yes. Yes. And there was one other thing I was going to mention. There is a controversy around Puyol. The mythic northern realm, because there are elements of racism when referring to Puyola, because people think of it as the world, the land of the Sammy and the Sammy are

the nomadic people of Finland, are, they would herd reindeers. And I don't believe that they are nomadic anymore. think, you know, just in our modern world, it's difficult to be nomadic. But that was their original, I think it was just recently that they probably stopped that.

But so a lot of the stories when they're referring to the people of the Northern realm, they're referring to the Sami and they're doing it in a distasteful way with using language that is derogatory.

Yeah, and if we have any Finnish listeners, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I do seem to remember that there's still a lot of prejudice. There's a lot of segregation between those two peoples, even though they might be considered Finnish. They're not considered to be of the same elk, no pun intended, or yes, as the rest of the Finnish people. So that's very interesting. We'll have to delve into that another time.

speaker-0 (57:32.718)
Okay, what have we not touched on? What have we not talked about?

We have touched on so many things. I've enjoyed this so much more than I thought. I really was dreading this, as I often do for some reason, and then I get really into it. I love talking to you about these stories. Love it.

I think it's because you don't like the original story and so once you're able to grasp onto a perspective that you enjoy, then you're able to connect with it maybe.

I think that's a good that's a good interpretation yeah yeah i think she's amazing me and i wouldn't have done everything she did but she's amazing.

Well, maybe you need to rewrite her story and tell it from her perspective. She needs her own version.

speaker-1 (58:16.696)
Just like this female author did a different interpretation, translation of Homer. my goodness, I have to talk to some publishers. Emily Wilson, Emily Wilson. Please read the translation of the Odyssey by Emily Wilson, and I've got to get it too, because I love, I love the Odyssey. I think it's absolutely incredible tale of life. And I think Odysseus made a lot of mistakes, so don't consider him a complete hero.

That's right. And I think that the Odyssey is very interesting and I would love to read her perspective as well, her translation as well, because he isn't written to be perfect. He makes a lot of mistakes and it seems to be acknowledged that he's making a lot of mistakes. And I like that when a hero is complex and he's not just good or bad. There's good and bad in all of us and it's...

basically the perspective of the storyteller and how we are going to perceive whether or not a person is morally neutral, good or bad, or chaotic.

Right, but exactly what you're saying, he's a hero, we consider him a hero, but you're very comfortable with his faults, and yet with a woman, we don't seem to be able to forgive her faults as easily. That's something we really need to be aware of.

Yes. Yeah.

speaker-0 (59:38.776)
That's true. Yeah. All right. All right. Well, thanks so much for listening, everybody. Make sure you hit that subscribe button if you like what we do and you want to support us. Make sure you're commenting. If you're watching on YouTube or if you are listening on a podcast platform, make sure you following us because it really helps us to when we gain followers and we're able to put out more

more content just like this. make sure you are hitting the like button, subscribing, and let us know what stories you want us to dive into because this is a lot of fun and when people give us suggestions we always find really interesting things to talk about as well.

Agree completely yeah so thank you Vanessa this is fantastic as usual.

Thanks so much for listening and keep the fairy tales alive.

Thanks everyone.