Fairy Tale Flip Ep 24: Talking Eggs

Talking eggs. A mysterious old woman in the woods. Two sisters. One choice. This Creole folktale from the American South has been hiding in plain sight — and it has a lot to say. This episode dives deep into that tension through one of the most richly layered folktales from the American South — The Talking Eggs.
Blanche and Rose are two sisters whose choices take them down very different paths. One finds treasure. The other finds danger. But this story is so much more than a simple moral tale — it's a window into Louisiana's Creole heritage, African spirituality, the complexity of family dynamics, and the societal expectations women have navigated for generations.
In this episode we explore:

The cultural roots that make this story uniquely powerful
How African symbolism and Creole tradition are woven into every layer of the narrative
What the tale's villains reveal about the societies that created them
The role of thresholds and transformation in folklore — and what they mean for our own lives

Whether you're a longtime lover of folklore or just discovering the world of fairy tales and folktales, this episode will change the way you see the stories you grew up with.
🎧 Listen to the full episode and share it with someone who needs to be reminded that kindness is never wasted.
#FairyTales #Folklore #TalkingEggs #CulturalStorytelling #FabricOfFolklore #CreoleCulture #FairyTaleFlip #Storytelling #FolkloreForWomen


00:00 Introduction to Fairy Tales and Folktales
01:55 The Talking Eggs: Summary and Themes
07:10 Cultural Context: Louisiana's Rich Heritage
11:59 The Role of Women in the Tale
17:07 Comparative Analysis: Folktale Types and Influences
24:14 African Spirituality and Symbolism in the Story
27:33 The Power of Respect and Transformation
32:58 Cultural Layers: Creole and African Traditions
39:08 The Role of the Villain and Societal Mirrors
49:12 Thresholds of Transformation in Fairy Tales

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Transcript

Vanessa Rogers (00:07.15)
Welcome welcome to fairy tale flip episode. Oh, I forgot to look what episode we're on. Maybe we're on 24? 24? That sounds right. We'll have to look it up later. I'm Vanessa Y Rogers. I'm the podcast host of Fabrica Folklore and this is Donnelly Fields my co-host and she runs a website called scaffolding magic and has a lot of educational resources and also has her own podcast that's

mostly just backlogged of education, interviews, it's very fascinating, doorways to learning with Donna. And we come together once a month and we look at one fairy tale or folktale, sometimes mythology even, and we look at it from the perspective of what it was saying culturally, what it meant historically.

What are the hidden meanings? What can we gain from these tales today? Do they have a significance in our current modern lives? And how can we utilize these tales to better ourselves, if you will? And so Donna is going to give us the summary of this story of the talking eggs.

Yeah, this is your choice, Vanessa. You grew up with this tale, wasn't it? My aunt was a kindergarten teacher, and so she did a lot of folk tales growing up. And so I was kind of immersed in it from my aunt. And so this is one of my favorite stories. think we're going to go over the element of the old lady who takes off her head. But I think that was probably why I really like.

I enjoyed this tale because it was much more supernatural than most of the other folktales or fairy tales I had come across. And so I think I was drawn to that creepiness of it. Yeah, and it does get creepy in a few places. So just a quick summary, because I know we both want to get into this. And the version I've never, I hadn't read before until you suggested it, and takes this type, fairy tale type, to whole new level.

Vanessa Rogers (02:24.771)
The summary is that Rose and Blanche are sisters and live in the deep south in this version in an old shack in the woods with their mother. And it's my biological mother, by the way. The mother is only kind to Rose and treats Blanche more like a slave, though Rose is rude and Blanche is actually very kind. So one day Blanche goes to the well. Her mother asks her to go to the well in the middle of the day and to get water. it's incredibly hot, but she goes anyway and finds an old woman there. The woman takes Blanche home.

but makes her promise not to laugh at anything she sees there. And there are some strange things at this woman's home. She rewards Blanche for following her promise to not laugh with some eggs. And she tells her to only take the eggs which say, take me, and not take the eggs which say, don't take me. And when Blanche gets home, she takes the eggs, they're actually just plain white eggs, throws them over her shoulder, and they turn out to be filled with gems, fine clothes, and other treasures.

And then Rose, her sister, wants the same thing. And her mother wants Rose to go and get the same thing. And Rose goes to the woman's house. But she chooses the eggs that say, don't take her. And they're these beautifully colored eggs. And when she gets home, she throws them over her shoulder. And the eggs turn out to be full of toads and poisonous animals and a large gray wolf. So that's the summary of this version of the story. And I think that the end part is important because Blanche leaves for the grand city.

with all of her treasures and that's an important element that we will definitely cover. Very important. Yes. So what did you think? Was this the first time you'd come across this tale? It wasn't the first time I came across this tale type and that's why I loved it because I immediately honed in on the type which was the kind and unkind girls and it's the Arnie Thompson, Uther type of the kind and kind sisters, Vanessa.

We probably haven't talked about the folktale types in a long time, and I just wanted to give a really quick review if that's okay with you. Okay, so really quickly, what is the ATU fairy tale type? It's Arnie Thompson Uther, and it's an index. It's a classification system, and it was designed for people like me and Vanessa and for people listening, identifying recurring plot patterns in the narrative structure of any version.

Vanessa Rogers (04:48.59)
so that we can organize and classify and analyze the folktales more easily. So it helps us research and it helps us find different versions of the tales, which Vanessa and I always have. We always offer you different versions of the same tale type. so this list has been updated exhaustively over the past hundred years. It was first done in the 1910 by Aniti Arni, Finnish, and then in 1928 by Stis Tamment.

She was a student of Arnie's and then most recently in 2004 by UT Uther. I almost immediately thought about Baba Yaga when I was reading through this. Did that come to your mind as well? It didn't, but I understand why you did. But why don't you explain that? Okay, so I'll just give the listeners a quick rundown of the story of Vasilis the Beautiful. Her mother has died, she has a stepmother and the stepmother...

demands that she goes to get fire from Baba Yaga. Baba Yaga is an old witch like character in the woods, in the deep woods, and she's very mean and she has a long nose and she eats children. so, Vasilis has this beautiful, this little doll that was given to her by her mother and her, the doll kind of guides her to Baba Yaga's hut in the woods. And Baba Yaga demands that she does all these chores for her in order for her to.

to gain fire and she does with the help of the doll because it's really impossible tasks. Unlike the old woman in the woods, this story who is kind and gentle and helpful, Baba Yaga is scary and mean and threatens children to eat children. But in the end, Baba Yaga gives her fire and she goes and there's a happily ever after in the end. But both have the spiritual liminal character

in the woods who kind of transform their existence after they go into the woods and go through this process of changing in a fundamental way. That's right. And the woods in fairy tales also represent transformation. So it makes a lot of sense. this tale,

Vanessa Rogers (07:10.275)
The woods are about transformation, but water is a motif that's even more important in this tale. So before we jump around and all, where should we start? Vanessa, we have so many things we want We do have so many things. I wanted to start in Louisiana so that it can kind of help us to look at this story, because one of the really fascinating elements of the story, and this was similar to our last story, The Princess of the Spring, where there were so many different cultures that are feeding into this one tale.

And this happens in this tale as well because if you were familiar with Louisiana, Louisiana is one of the richest cultural states of the United States. There's so much beautiful culture there because of its history. So I'm just gonna do a quick rundown. 1699 in Louisiana is claimed by France. Then in 1719, two ships bring 500 enslaved people

from the Senegambia region, so there's several countries within that region, but they're all coming from the same region. 1724, the Côte Noir is enacted, and this is a French law that gives enslaved people different rights than do the British, and we're gonna talk a little bit more about this in the future, and how this really changed the culture of Louisiana.

1931, they stopped the slave trade and it actually really helps to make the people who are living there more homogeneous and allows them to kind of consolidate their culture in a more fundamental way. And also they are allowed to have these gatherings. The enslaved individuals are allowed to have

gatherings on Sunday where they have these traditions of having African music and they have dancing and drumming and storytelling so we don't see this in the British colonies. The British colonies work really hard to prevent any of this culture from homogenizing but the French allow it and so this is why we see this in Louisiana today and we don't see it in other places. In 1809

Vanessa Rogers (09:33.968)
Haitian refugees are coming from San Domingo and they double the New Orleans population, which brings the Voodoo and Hoodoo traditions, which deepens the spiritual layer of the Creole culture that we'll be talking about. The person who records this story in written form records it, Alice Fortier as a teenager records it.

And then in 1895, he publishes it when he becomes a linguist. And then it's entered into written language. But the next year, the very next year, 1896, is when the separate be equal, the Plessy versus Ferguson Supreme Court decision basically legitimizes those Jim Crow laws and reestablishes racial segregation and kind of

dissimilates, dismantles the three-tier Creole world that had been created in Louisiana, which was really distinct. We'll talk about it a little bit more later, but it dismantles a lot of the structure that had been there prior. And so the fact that he was able to publish it prior to that is really great, because it helps that it was collected prior to this.

Any thoughts about that? I was thinking about the fact that it's a male who published it, who wrote it down and published it because it's actually a woman's tale and it's actually told mostly by the grandmothers and so it's kind of ironic that the telling, the written telling and also the one that I like the most in YouTube is by a male as well. interesting. We'll do the link in the show notes because I listen to a few of the retelling of the story in YouTube and they're all...

You know, obviously Anglo-Saxon women, girls, and there's one by what's pretty clearly a Creole accent, someone from the deep south, and it was just lovely built. we'll put that link in there. And I did want to mention, it is very interesting that there is not a single male in the story. And that is pretty rare, especially when you look at European tales, because European tales almost always have a male at the end, at least to marry the female.

Vanessa Rogers (11:59.728)
as kind of the reward for. But we don't see that in this tale and there's not even a male witness because it's unnecessary. And in somewhere in your research, I know you have this because I have it too, is that women were given a lot of rights in Louisiana and black women were given a lot of rights. They were given rights of ownership. so there was no black. There's no black character in the tale. And as you say, in the end, Blanche goes to.

New Orleans to the city to be a fine lady. And she could be a fine lady because in Louisiana at that time a black woman could become a very well-established woman of society and be an owner of property and have money that she could control herself. Until the 1896 separate but equal was enacted and then it dismantled that middle class of the freed black

people. Right. wonder if, you know, I don't live in Louisiana. You're down in the south. I don't know if you know much about Louisiana, if it has that flavor anyway, if women are still valued in Louisiana or is it pretty much? I don't really know about that, but I've really only visited New Orleans and a few little cities because I am close to is close to Louisiana, but it's a very poor

is one of the poorest states in the United States, but it is just beautiful in its culture. It's just amazing to visit. So I definitely encourage anybody who has the opportunity to go to New Orleans because the music and the dancing and the storytelling, there's a lot of rich culture there. I did want to make a one note because I wasn't positive on what the difference between Cajun and Creole were.

And there's a lot of different definitions, but just to be the simplified version is Cajun refers to the countryside of South Louisiana and Creole looks more at the mixed colonial and urban side. So that's the difference when you're saying Creole and Cajun. Interesting. All right, well, why don't we talk about that, that, you know, the Creole influence and the African influence and the French influence on this tale. Because as we say, I gave a summary of the tale type and that's

Vanessa Rogers (14:25.838)
The basics are included in the story. But we do have, as I mentioned in the very beginning, the mother is biological. And there are very few fairy tales that we talk about that have a biological mother. Because really, want to give the evil sort of stamp to a non-biological woman. It's horrible. It's even more horrifying to think that a biological parent could be so cruel to a child. And yet, we know it's true, unfortunately.

So why don't we talk about why some of these influence, how these influences from the African, the French, and the Creole. Yeah. So I would like to start with the French because that's the colonizers, the original colonizers, obviously after the Native Americans were there because they colonized after people already lived there for a very long time. the most direct ancestor.

of this tale that I found was the Toads and Diamonds by Charles Perot. And this one is really very similar. There's a kind girl, there's a kind sister and a mean sister. And I think this one actually doesn't have a stepmother either. There's one of them that is related that has a biological mother. And she goes, the kind daughter goes to the well and she gives water to an old woman at the well.

And the old woman turns into a fairy and blesses her with the blessing of jewels and flowers coming out of her mouth. So then the mean sister comes and she wants the same thing, but she's looking for an old crone. And instead she sees this fine lady and the fine lady asks for water and the mean sister dismisses her. And so she turns into a fairy and makes all of the snakes and toads and

wasps come out of her mouth every time she speaks. And so then the kind sister runs into a prince and he marries her and they live happily ever after. So of course that's very the European version where there was always a man who has to be the reward for the ending of the story. That's right because Blanche goes off and she doesn't go to marry. She goes to be a fine lady, but it doesn't say she goes.

Vanessa Rogers (16:45.488)
and finds a man and lives with him. No, she goes and she becomes her own woman. And that's the same in some versions of the Baba Yaga as well, because of the Vassila the Beautiful. She goes off and it becomes a she has her own life. It's some version she marries, but some version she just has a beautiful life in the city.

Yeah, I don't remember that. It's interesting. Yeah, because for me, the most of that story really centers around Baba Yaga and the girl. And you know me, I like the protagonist and the protagonist is Baba Yaga and this story, the protagonist is actually not the old woman at the well. She's really, really sweet. The antagonist in this story is the mother. Would you agree with that? The mother and the sister. Yeah. But I mean, I really dig in deep with this. It's the mother. OK.

The sister has been trained by the mother to be a really not very nice person. And if you notice at the end of the story, Rose comes back and she is chased by all these poisonous animals and the gray wolf and the toads and everything. But the mother also gets attacked by these animals. And it's completely justifiable because the mother is the one that's instigated the whole division and the mother is the one who has discredited her biological daughter Blanche and said...

So, I have that in my notes as a African, kind of morality. We saw what you reap. So she's getting her just reward or, you know, reaction, because she was just as horrible as, as Rose was probably worse because she's the one who created going right. And so

It's interesting because then I was thinking about the name. Rose is usually this beautiful name in other fairy tales and in this one she's the mean sister. Blanche actually comes up a lot more than I thought. There are lot of fairy tales that have the name Blanche in it, but Blanche means white. In French Blanche is white in English. And that's kind of interesting because it really mirrors the whole idea that when you become wealthy and respected,

Vanessa Rogers (18:58.233)
it's more of a white, in that society, it was more of a white circumstance. Am I being clear in that sense? So even though these were, it was a black mother, two black children, they named the good daughter Blanche, as if to say the connotation is she's lighter, she's closer to the white community. It's a horrible thing to think about. But that's one of the, that was one of the twists in this version. Yes. And then what about Rose? What did you think about Rose, the name?

The name usually means this beautiful, you know, magical smelling flower. And yet in this one, Rose, some of the research says, well, it's red. I mean, I don't think of Rose as red, but it's red onus, evil. And so she's named as a red character. Rose by Rose. What I found was that in Yoruba tradition, which is Central West African,

tradition, the color of shango, which is red, the deity of lightning power and sometimes destructive forces. So it was suggesting that Rose burns so bright she destroys herself. Interesting. Do you think that's the case in the story? don't see that kind of. No, I don't really know. It's, hard to know. You know, one of the things that I came across is that there's so many different layers.

that are being read by different individuals. So like the French people or the Catholics are reading the story and getting different messaging than are the Creole people. And so it's really fascinating how there's these different meanings being sent to the different readers. So I think it's one of those, those that it's based off of where you're coming from, maybe. Yes, yeah. They're different.

I mean, my first school that I was student teaching in was a Native American school. And I was taught that owls, just by the general population, owls were taught, were good luck. If you saw an owl, it good luck. And yet, in the classroom, there were Native Americans from different pueblos. And each pueblo, they had a different take on what an owl signified. Some of them said that if you see an owl, run for your life. It was scary. So yes, it all depends on where you're from and what culture.

Vanessa Rogers (21:20.844)
Well, and you're in Mexico, right? Because in Mexico, there's the story of Lechuga. What is her name? She's the witch that transforms herself into an owl. my goodness. talked about her. Yeah. And she is an omen of death. Okay. But Lechuga means lettuce. So let's It's not Lechuga. I can't remember what it's called. It's like there's an L-E. We'll have to look it up. Okay. We'll look it up. Mexican, evil.

would you say, evil Mexican witch? Yes, she's a witch. She's a shape-shifter. Um, okay. So while you're doing that, I was going to tell one other story, the mother holy story. Excuse me. were Lachusa. Lachusa. Lachusa. Yeah, there it is. A shape-shifting owl witch. Yeah. Very well done. Very well done, Vanessa. Okay. And, and she, she bleeds into South Texas. So that's a legend here too. Wow. Okay. So please go ahead with what you're going to say.

Okay, so in the German version, so the version I told before was the French version. The German version with Frau Holle or Mother Holle. Basically, the kind sister dives into a well because she drops her spindle and she finds herself in this magical realm and she's helpful. There's like an oven that needs bread taken out, an apple tree that needs apples shaken out of it, and Mother Holle offers her a place to sleep and

and eat for free if she just says chores and she's very happy there. And she is actually, I believe we talked about her as well in Baba Yaga because she is tied to deities and female deities and she is in charge of the snowfall in Germany. And so when she shakes her feather bed or her feather pillowcase and the feathers go flying, it's causing the snow to

fall on the earth. And then, so she stays there for a while until she gets homesick. I don't know what that noise was. So she stays there for a while until she gets homesick. And then as she's leaving, she's showered with gold. And so her mean sister wants the reward. And so she does the same thing. But when she leaves, after she's being lazy, she's showered with pitch. And so she's covered in pitch for the rest of her life.

Vanessa Rogers (23:45.649)
kind sisters showered with gold and she lives a wealthy life. So it's the same type of thing, but it's the one found in Germany. That's like the Tar baby. Do you remember the Tar baby story? Yes. Isn't that like a Southern story too? It is. Yep. And I grew up with that, but I mean, my mother was Texan, so maybe that's why we had it in our house. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't like, um,

Okay, so then there's the West African layer with the Haitian layers. And we really see the difference here with the witch-like character. Because a lot of the witches in European tales are mean, right? They're bad. It's black and white if they're bad or good. And she is, with her ability to remove her head, that's distinctly African.

You see this a lot in different African traditions. The Yoruba tradition that we were talking about before, she represents this elderly spiritual woman, mother, and these spiritual women are able to shape shift into birds. Again, the shape shifting into birds. And she represents this threshold, this liminal figure that is.

the go between the spiritual world and the human world. And so all of these things that come out, like there's a two-headed cow, there's these rainbow chickens, all of these elements within this story are distinctly African and they're markers of the African spiritual elements because you don't really, the spiritual elements,

There's not so much spiritual elements in European tales. There are magical elements, but usually they're very obviously magical, whereas that's not necessarily the case quite as much in this one. And then we also see this difference in how the sister and the mother are punished. It's more about the ecological punishment, the natural world punishes them, whereas there's usually like a punishment from like the super,

Vanessa Rogers (26:07.887)
like a divine force, like a fairy or a witch or someone is in charge of punishing the bad person whereas in this story it's the nature rebels against their ill-temper cruelty. Okay, but let's focus on the head, removing the head, because I didn't say that in the summary. One of the things she made sure that Blanche and Rose didn't laugh at was

She actually took off her head, put it on her head on her own lap and brushed her hair out. And that is, as you say, very, it's a big motif in African spiritual traditions. But think about it, you you're taking off your head, you can say the mind controls the body. I don't say that. I say that the spirit controls the mind. But what it's doing is she's saying, my head does not control my body. My head does not rule what I do.

what I do because she still has complete control over her actions even though her head is literally in her lap. And so what she's saying is think outside the box. Think about what really is power for you. Think about where your power comes from and think about how you can claim more of your power. Blanche is certainly looking at this woman whose head is off of her body in complete control of everything she's doing still.

And I thought it was a very powerful motif. Yeah. And like I was saying in the start of the episode, this is, think, one reason why this story stuck with me, because you don't see this element of detaching body parts in European-type fairy tales. And so I found it very unique and scary. And Blanche is scared, but at the same time, she's respectful. And that's the difference between the behavior of Rose and

and Blanche because Blanche recognizes her as a spiritual being and as an ancestral spirit that should be given respect. Yeah. That's right. And what I see now as you're talking, what I see is that this woman is giving Blanche the opportunity to be respectful. She's giving the opportunity of Blanche to see that there's a transformation inside of herself. She's offering her an opportunity.

Vanessa Rogers (28:32.902)
to find that power from within her by not laughing at what seems so out of the norm. As you say, in European traditions, if someone's body part is cut off, it stays cut off. It's not put back on. And in this one, the woman is showing her all is not what it seems to be. So believe in the spirit, believe in magic. she wins by doing that, by respecting the woman's wishes. And she becomes more powerful because

she was respectful and really loses because she wasn't respectful. Yes. And I also read at some point, I have some notes about when she's throwing the eggs over her shoulder, because in African tradition, the behind you is the spirit world and in front of you is the human world. And as she's throwing the eggs behind her, she is, paying homage.

To the African tradition? To the African tradition, but also her ancestors. Yeah, it's lovely. She throws them over. mean, in your notes, I was reading it, and it's such a lovely interpretation, and it's a cultural tie, where you're throwing something over. You're letting go. You're letting go of everything you've known, because she didn't know what was going to happen once she threw the eggs over her shoulder. And so with complete faith, she throws them over her shoulder, letting go of her known life.

And as you say, throwing it into the spiritual world and because of that, because of her belief in her, you know, belief in what this woman has told her to do, she wins. Her life changes completely. Right. In so many of these fairy tales, transformation is an underlying current and theme, right? We always want to see a transformation of our main protagonist and we definitely see that with the breaking of the egg. And I think it's really a beautiful

symbol because if you're holding the egg, transformation can't come, right? If you're holding onto it, if you're keeping it precious and safe, but it requires trust and faith to break the egg. And that breaking of what you're holding onto is how you're able to go through the transformation process. It's really a difficult thing to do to let go.

Vanessa Rogers (31:02.572)
But it's necessary in order to move forward and to transform into who you want to be. know, literally that's the same because you can hold an egg in your hand and until you break it in a frying pan or however you want to do it, it's not going to be edible unless of course you like eating raw egg with the shell. Literally, it's the same as figuratively. And eggs as you were saying, we were saying before, it depends on

what culture, what country we're talking about, but eggs have deep symbolism in many different cultures. in Greece, it was depicted as a snake coiled around itself, the Orphic egg, and it was believed to have been hatched from a primordial deity. Hinduism also, which is the oldest spiritual legacy we have on this planet, the egg is the cosmos. The egg is everything.

And so you break an egg open and there's so many different levels to an egg, so many different transmutations it takes on. So I could go through a lot of different ones. Pacific is another one. They believe that the yolk and the white of the egg is the heaven and earth. So the egg is a very powerful motif in fairy tales. Yes. Yes, I think so as well. And I think that it holds hidden truth.

and hidden power. Nice. Yep. Okay. What other motifs would you like to talk about? Well, let's go into the Creole layer. So we've done, we've done French, we've done African slash Haitian. Let's go into the Creole layer because this is where the, the amalgamation, the, the mixing of these two cultures are coming together into the more modern world where this, the story kind of forms.

So we see the, it start off on a poor farm setting, which is very reminiscent of the free black people who are living in the wilderness in, in Louisiana, because Louisiana territory has one of the largest maroon settlements in North America during the colonial period. So they, their population at some point in my notes, have some statistics, but they have a very large.

Vanessa Rogers (33:27.453)
freed black populations throughout Louisiana. And so this is representing these maroon settlements. And then like we were saying, the ending where Blanche goes to the city to live like a grand lady is very Creole. It's very much about this idea of what they were able to aspire to because it was

something that black people in other places didn't have, but in Louisiana there was a rising in your social class for black people that wasn't available in a lot of other places. And then the voodoo connection, it's African also and Haitian. The woman, the grandmother is considered a mambo.

figure. She is, like I was saying, the spirit house. She is the liminal character. And it's interesting because based off of who is reading it, can be a moral tale, a spiritual encounter, and it can be read simultaneously at both, for both those layers. and so it's really fascinating that two different people reading it can have two different takes based off of their cultural.

encoding. And then, and then there's, is a really important part because the Blanche is following her ancestors, her spiritual guide, the mother, the, the, the grandmother is basically a spiritual guide. Whereas Rose has lost the ability to see with her African eyes. She has adopted the greed of the colonizers.

And so she's destroyed by this, the colonizers values, whereas Blanche is able to retain that older site of her ancestors and is able to see that the plain egg is the way for forward. The plain egg is how the community survives, not reaching for greed, not reaching for like be purely wealth.

Vanessa Rogers (35:50.191)
but being good and following what your ancestors have laid out for you. Okay, so let me just put this in context because what you said is so important, but I just want to make sure that our listeners understand you were talking about the eggs that Rose chose and the eggs that Blanche chose. Blanche chose the simple white eggs. And so she chose what seems to be the simple life and yet actually has so many different layers to it. Blanche, excuse me, Rose chose the colorful

the gems, what looked like gems. And as you're saying, that's what the colonists wanted. They wanted wealth. wanted to jump right from having nothing to everything. And she was fooled and Blanche was not. Blanche saw the power in what looks like simplicity. in the end, Blanche actually gets the wealth that Rose covets. But she does so by following

the survival guide that her spiritual guides, her, her ancestors are leading her towards. So she's not just reaching for wealth, but she gains wealth because she's being obedient to, this path. Right. And also what we could see is that, when she takes the simple egg and she throws it, we're going back over to the motif of throwing it over her shoulder, but it's the same sort of idea.

Blanche has had to be quiet most of her life. She's had to swallow a lot of the pain that her mother and sister have given her. She couldn't say what she wanted to say because she would be beaten even more. And so it's throwing something, what seems simple, over her shoulders. She's throwing out her complicity. She's throwing out her silence. And she doesn't go and punish her mother and her sister. She just leaves. She said, OK, that's it.

goes to the positive. She doesn't dwell on trying to revenge herself on the negative. So one of the things I wanted to point out is that... Sorry, Vanessa. had to correct myself. Take revenge. Okay. So this story is recorded in 1895, but obviously it's older because it's just when it was written down. But also, as you were mentioning before, this

Vanessa Rogers (38:12.402)
this variant is extremely old. What is it called? The 480, the kind and unkind girls is extremely old. And we see it in the Arabic world even in circulation in eighth to 10th century. And so it's showing up in the Americas from lots of different traditions.

And they meet each other and they say, Hey, this is, we're similar stories and we're going to kind of entwine to fit this culture that we're in now. And so I think that's really interesting how old this variant is. Um, even so one of the guests I have pod, I have interviewed on my podcast. His name is Ulrich Marsolf and he, uh, says that

It's one of the oldest, most frequent Arab oral traditions that is seen throughout the Arab world. This story was recorded by Alisay Fortier, I'm bad with names, and he recorded it as a teenager. There's some problematic elements to it as there always are. He is a professor of Romance Languages, so he actually...

one really great benefit to him recording it, he actually records it as a teenager. And then he records it in its native language because he has that ability as a linguist. So that is actually quite rare for there to be the original language and then the translation into English. So that's quite a blessing. But when we, when it's translated from its original language to English, it loses some of the dynamic call and response that is

in the original text because that's not part of English storytelling as much as it is of the Creole language that is being spoken during this time. And also today there's a version that's being spoken today. The other problem with his recording, not so much with his recording, is more in his commentary. He's quite racist. Which is common.

Vanessa Rogers (40:33.049)
In this time period, there's a lot of racism. So there's a scholar who's commenting on this, says, great irony that a very prejudiced man like Fortier should produce as the most scholarly and original work of his whole career studies which preserves and analyzes the language and the culture of the very people whose right he had so neglected. Because he speaks about them.

in this really derogatory way. He believes black people were better off under slavery. He refers to them as children, childlike people. And he describes them as just simple and superstitious, but his, he is very true to his recording, to their recording. So he is not believed that he actually made changes. He just, his commentary is racist.

Left out the commentary, right? Exactly. there is also the problem of it being recorded as a white man because they're not going to be quite as truthful in their storytelling because there are encoded messages that they might not want to tell white people.

during this time period. also, Vanessa, it had to have been a translation, right? Because it was originally told in one of the African languages. And this is what we were saying in the very beginning of the episode, is that the grandmother would tell this to the girls, mostly the girls. It's recorded in Creole. I read that they actually told it one of the African languages, Yuntun. Does that make sense? I have to find that. And so I have Currie Vinnie. I mean, I'm sure it's recorded in lots of I don't know in his book.

His book. No, and his obviously would have been in English, but I'm just saying that it was no, he records it in the original language and then translates it to English. Interesting. OK, yeah. So it must have been like a French Creole.

Vanessa Rogers (42:39.271)
But I'm sure it was told in lots of different languages. What was, so which language was that that you found? I have to find out. Of course, when you're looking for something, you don't find it. But I remember it very clearly because they were saying that the grandmothers would, would part of the magic of the story was that it was told in the one of the original African languages. And so the grandmothers were telling the girls, this is your power. This story is about power. This is how you can find, believe in the spirit world, believe in your inner power and believe.

and respect your respect things that may seem out of the norm. They could be your way out of slavery, out of poverty. Yeah. And that obviously is not going to be translated faithfully by a white person who. Right. Appreciate slavery. So I'm surprised that we have this story so beautifully written now. Yeah, it's ironic. It is very ironic. Yes. Also, he records Briar Rabbit.

tales, in French is Compaire Lapin, and they're being recorded at the same time by a friend of his in Georgia. But they are also very reluctant to tell him the Briar Rabbit stories because those even more so have coded resistance to the slavery system within them. And so he's not understanding why they aren't really wanting to tell him these Briar Rabbit stories of this trickster who

tricks the master slave owner and without raising suspicion. That's right. It's the same, you the animals that are chosen in the story, get from what you're telling me, this white man who wrote down the story probably did not understand many of the elements that he was actually writing down because these animals were chosen very deliberately and the rabbit is supposed to be the trickster and outsmarting the other characters in the story. And the chickens, the white chicken is

the most holy in the African stories in the African tradition. And so seeing a bunch of rabbits dressed up in tux and formal clothes and different colors is a way of saying...

Vanessa Rogers (44:54.397)
blanking out. I'm have to cut this out. How am I going to finish that one? Let's just keep going. Keep going. okay. I'm curious your take on the villain. So you talked about the mother being the villain in your eyes. Is she still a villain or is she a societal mirror or what is she?

Because you like to take the villain and twist her vision. That's right. But I think that a villain and societal mirror can be one in the same. Yeah. So I didn't realize it until later that it was the biological mother and both of the children who the protagonists are both her biological children. And so you don't think about the mother automatically as being the villain, as having the onus of the evil character.

characteristics. And yet she is. She's the one that pushed Blanche to go into the well at the hottest point in the day to meet this lovely woman and to have this spiritual encounter. And she's the one that pushed Blanche, the daughter that she liked, to try to match the wealth that her other daughter found. And she didn't take any responsibility for it in the end, and yet she was punished for it in the end. And you know, in life we don't always

I think many of us want the person who is antagonizing us to be punished, to get the consequences, and yet it's not our job to do that. It's, if you believe in creation, if you believe in higher power, it's higher power's decision when and where and if for the person to get the consequences. And in this story she does, it's very satisfying, right? It's very satisfying. So yeah, I do see her as the, know, flipping on the back. She's not just a...

nice woman sitting in a shack taking care of her daughter, she doesn't take care of her daughter, she takes care of one of them. And we can't even say she takes care of that daughter because she raises her with really twisted values. The colonizer's values. Let's say the colonizer's values, that's a nice really twist there. And usually we would go right to the grandmother at the well and think, oh, that's the witch. She is not the witch, even though she takes off her head and she's disconnected from her mind.

Vanessa Rogers (47:16.743)
And she has these, like you're saying, the Baba Yaga sort of woods where she has these magical animals all over her. seems like a big disconnect. She is spirit. She is what you want to go to a disconnect from the chaos we have around us in the world right now. What would be lovely to go in the woods and see a woman sitting combing her own hair on her lap?

colorful chickens and rabbits and eggs, would be such a relief to me. And it's interesting, this Mambo character that she, she represents it in African tradition. She is kind of more of an ambiguous character in that how you approach her, if you approach her in the right way, in a respectful way, then she will bestow you blessings. Whereas if you, if you approach her in a disrespectful way,

Hey, you better watch out. There's going to be consequences. Right. And, and this is just sort of doubles back on how kind this woman is because she gives both of them the same opportunity. She Blanchard knows the same opportunity. She says, don't laugh and I will give you, and she doesn't say, I'll give you a reward. She, she gives them the option of deciding whether they're getting a reward or consequences. She says, follow the eggs advice, take the ones that say, take me and don't take the ones that say, don't take me. The girls make the choice. It's not like the grandmother gives them the eggs.

They make their own choices, so she is not only giving them opportunity to dig deeper into where their power is, she's giving them the opportunity to make their own choices. And Blanche makes the choice that we hope she does, and she does, to benefit herself. And Rose makes the choice that sort of manifests what's going on inside of her. Twistiness. Yeah. OK, so I wanted just to bring us back.

to one story that I forgot to mention that came from Africa. And it's called the Mufaro's Beautiful Daughter. so like we were saying, it comes from Europe, but also there's tales from Africa. And basically it's very similar tale, two sisters, and one of them runs off to the kingdom to try and become the queen. And on her path, she dismisses

Vanessa Rogers (49:41.295)
all of these characters, a boy who asks for food, an old lady, it's nature who laughs at her, she laughs back at, and so when she goes to approach the king to become his queen, she sees a five-headed snake. Well, when the nice sister comes along the path, she's kind to everyone she meets, and she gives gifts, and so when she goes to the throne and finds the king, he transforms himself.

from a snake that she had befriended earlier and he turns into the king and he says, you've been kind to me all along the way. I was the young boy, I was the old lady, I was the nature and I want you to be my queen. And so then the mean sister becomes the servant. And so that's the African tale version that we see coming from African and melding with the European tales.

But I really liked that version as well. Yeah, I love that as well. And the last thing that I would like to leave with is about the symbol that ties everything together. And this is actually from your research. And I loved it so much because I realized that it's something that you feel when you're reading the story, and yet most of us don't put it into words. And it's about threshold. And the whole story is about a threshold, the threshold between the cultures, the threshold, the well is a threshold.

bringing water out of the well. We did refer to water really lightly in the beginning, that water is a threshold. The forest is transformation, the well is water's threshold. The woods, the old woman's cabin, the hen house is a threshold, deciding which are you going to be true to what you've been asked to do or not. The egg is a threshold, throwing it over your shoulder, what's going to come out of it. New Orleans is the threshold.

the American, the African, the European being slave and being free, being under your mother's rule or someone who's an antagonist, and then going and being under your own power. So threshold is this lovely idea in the whole story where every paragraph really in the story is a new threshold. Something new is happening because of decisions that the girls are making and the characters sort of open up for each other.

Vanessa Rogers (52:04.883)
How does that feel to you? Yeah, I really like that. And I think, you know, it's, it's the threshold to transformation because each, each threshold leads her towards her transformation that she, she finds in the end. And really when we're reading these stories, they're always about some sort of transformation, but this one is quite obvious in, in, in its, in its ending.

And it's a really beautiful ending that she doesn't have to find a man to, to be happy. She can, she can be happy on her own. It says a married woman, but I love that you're saying that. Because we don't, we don't have to have men. I mean, you know, if we want children, but you know, for happiness. No. Yeah. And I, I'm very happy not having ever been married. So, and it was a conscious choice. It wasn't just that I never found the right one. was.

I knew that I wasn't going to get married and I was very fine with that. But if you want marriage and you want children and you want to partner for the rest of your life, it's a lot of work and I completely support you. You just want it for your life. Well, not mine, but I know you work really hard at your marriage and with your children, you're incredible, Vanessa. Thank you. If your husband disappeared for a couple of months, you'd be fine. Yes, we'd survive. We'd survive.

Alright, well this was a great tale. Thank you for letting me do my childhood. One of my childhood favorites. Yeah. And we haven't decided next month, but if you have suggestions, let us know. We are always open for suggestions. And so until next time, keep the fairy tales alive. Don't forget to subscribe. We forgot to say that. Subscribe to our channels.

wherever you're listening, either YouTube or if you're listening on the podcasting platform, make sure you hit the like button and subscribe so that you get all of these beautiful tales that you might not know about and understand how they have meaning in your own life. And we'd like to hear what you took away from it because we talked a little bit about how we, what we gathered from it, but there's something for everybody in these tales. So, all right.

Vanessa Rogers (54:26.823)
Have a great one and keep the fairy tales alive. Thanks everyone.