Fairy Tale Flip Ep 25 pt 1: The Fisherman and the Djinn

Most people have heard of the fisherman who pulls a genie out of a bottle. Very few people know what that genie actually swore to do once he got out — or why. And almost nobody knows the story behind the story: the king who married a new woman every night and killed her by morning, and the storyteller who figured out the one thing that could stop him.
In Part 1 of this episode of Fairy Tale Flip Episode #25, Vanessa Rogers and Donna Fields dive deep into The Fisherman and the Djinn from One Thousand and One Nights — one of the oldest stories in the entire collection — and unpack what Western retellings almost always get wrong.
Why did the djinn's centuries of waiting make him more dangerous, not less? What does the Seal of Solomon actually signal to a Middle Eastern reader that a Western reader completely misses? And what does this ancient story have to do with Pandora's jar — not box, jar — and a Brothers Grimm tale about a woodcutter's son?
This one goes deep.

00:00 — Welcome & Introduction

01:12 — Story Summary: The Fisherman & the Djinn

06:58 — The Second Part of the Story

09:31 — Why These Stories Never End

12:25 — Origins of One Thousand and One Nights

18:52 — Who Was Telling These Stories & To Whom?

21:12 — Why We Chose This Story

23:09 — Shahrazad: The Original Therapist

27:30 — The Sharon Blackie Article

29:01 — Shahrazad & the Invention of the Cliffhanger

31:14 — The Frame Story as Russian Nesting Dolls

34:38 — The Nesting Doll as a Search for Truth

38:03 — King Solomon: Who He Really Is

43:37 — The Djinn in the Quran

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[Vanessa] Welcome, welcome to Fairy Tale Flip. I'm Vanessa Why Rogers, and my host is Donnelly Fields. And once a month we come together and we dive into a fairy tale. And this month we are diving into one of the oldest stories: 0:01

The Fisherman and the Djinn from 1001 Arabian Nights. And man, was this a crazy story![Vanessa] a a crazy hole to go down. I don't know if you felt like that, Donna. This was just like so much information that I was not familiar with. so it was quite a a journey for me.[Donna] Goodness, Vanessa, I think I I wrote to you right away and said, I don't know where the story ends. I'm so confused. So and then I remembered that it's it's a thousand and one nights and that has everything to do why we couldn't figure out where it ends. And we'll talk about that. Yeah. So[Vanessa] Yeah.[Vanessa] Yes, yes. All right, so why don't you give our listeners a summary and I think you're gonna give a summary of the story we're gonna talk about, the fisherman in the gin, but also the the overall story that it's sourcing from, which will make more sense when she tells it.[Donna] Exactly, the Thousand One Nights because I wasn't really sure if I wanted to do the Fisherman and the Genie and then I and then you said you mentioned it was part of One Thousand and One Nights. I said, I am all in. I love the Thousand One Nights. I remember I bought it once when I lived in Spain and I bought it in Spanish because I had to do you know, it had to be a challenge at least. I read all of the Thousand and One stories and they were and that was an adventure V Vanessa. Have you ever read all of them?[Vanessa] Well, actually I don't know what version I read. I did read a version and I didn't love it, because I ha half the time I felt like I didn't know what was happening. I feel like I need to go back and reread it, but now that I've read it, I am wondering if I didn't read the full version b but like the the c the smaller version. The abridged version.[Donna] Bridged. Yeah. It's possible because we only know some of the really famous stories, and I didn't even like them when I read The Thousand One Nights. There's some absolutely gorgeous stories in it, but they're either raunchy or very violent. It's like whole compendium. It's really an adventure. All right, so let me just give you a very brief summary of the the of Thousand One Nights, and we're focusing on just one of the stories, which actually has five stories within it, and that's why,[Donna] We didn't know when it ended. And there's a reason for that as well. So the Thousand and One Nights is a compendrium of many different cultures. It was written over a period of time. And Vanessa, you're gonna go into details about that one. But basically it's about a king of, let's say, Persia, what we know now as Persia, Shayhar, and he was furious because of the infidelity of his first wife. So he vowed to marry one woman every night and kill her the next day. And he did, because he was the king.[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Donna] And so this went on for a while until the daughter of the visor, his closest consultant, Sarah Hazed, asks her father to be the king's next wife. And of course, he doesn't want to do this because it's a death sentence, but she insists. And so we're going to go into what she does to justify why she wanted to marry the king. And what she does is just really brief, she tells a thousand and one stories. Every night she tells a different one. And[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Donna] Her sisters there are some what I've just found out is sometimes her sister doesn't come into the story, maybe in the abridged versions, but her sister has everything to do with the eventual success of this queen, Sharh Zaid, and why the king doesn't kill her, because she tells him a story every night. And the fisherman and the genie is one of those stories. And the brilliant part of what she does is she begins the story at night. Her sister says[Donna] If you're not tired, could you tell me a story that will break open the night? And she and the king, of course, listens in and he's intrigued with the story. And she ends a story just at daybreak. And her sister says, how strange. And she says to her sister, Yes, but I have a stranger one to tell you. And she begins the first few lines of the story and then stops. And of course, the king is so intrigued.[Donna] But he doesn't kill her as d as dawn breaks, and he waits till the next night to hear the rest of the story. So The Fisherman and the Genie is one of those stories, and a very brief summary is that it's an older fisherman who casts his net four times. He he's desperate to make a living. He pulls up, and I'm gonna go into this because Vanessa has a lot of the symbolisms behind what he pulls up. He pulls up a dead donkey, a jar of mud, trash[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Donna] And a brass jar with a stopper in it. And when he pulls up the stopper from the jar, a smoky demon emerges, a genie, who threatens to kill the fisherman. Not exactly what we're used to when we think about a genie coming out of a bottle. So it turns out that for the first hundred years of his imprisonment, the genie swore to enrich the person who frees him from the bottle. No one frees him. The second century of his imprisonment in the bottle, he swore to grant his liberator great wealth.[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Donna] But nobody frees him. The third century, he swore to grant three wishes to the person who frees him, but nobody does. And so in the fourth century, being inside this bottle, the genie becomes becomes enraged and swears to grant the person who frees him a choice of their own death. However, the fisherman tricks this demon, the genie brings puts him back into the jar. The demon then offers to make the fisherman rich if he releases him again.[Donna] The fisherman tells him a story about a king and a sage, and after the story, the genie pleads for mercy, swears to help them in return for being released, and the fisherman accepts the bargain and releases the genie. Okay? Now, Vanessa, go.[Vanessa] There's a second part to the story that we're gonna cover some as well. So I'm gonna give that part as well just for so our listeners. So a lot of times West when Westerners tell the story, they stop where Donna where Donna did. because we l like kind of like a a closed ending, one that that ends. But like she was saying in the beginning, a lot of these stories[Vanessa] Just keep going. And there's the stories within stories within stories. And so this story actually has a continuation. and I'm gonna record I was I was gonna record before we we hopped on, and then I was deep in the notes and I didn't. But so the second part of the story is when the fisherman comes to present the king with the four fishes. did you say that part yet? Did you? Okay.[Donna] No, I didn't say that part. Could you explain where he what he does with this? Yeah.[Vanessa] So once so once the the fisherman releases the gin, I'm saying gin cause that's the original term, Donna's saying genie. That is the French translation of the word gin. So it's just what Westerners say now. But if you are into any sort of fantastical if fantasy literature, you'll see the word gin. Dj I N N. And that's the the word I'm I'm using. and so the gin[Vanessa] He comes back out and he says, Okay, follow me. And he takes the the fisherman to a clear lake. And it is this lake is ensconced by four hills. And within the beautiful lake are four fish that look like nothing the fisherman has ever seen before. And the fish are of four different colors red, white, blue, and yellow. And the the[Vanessa] the djinn tells him to cast his net into the water and take the fish to the king. And so the king, once the the gin the fisherman receives the fish, he takes the fish and he tries to cook them. All these weird things start happening and the f the ke the king goes to the place where the fish are and discovers that there is a[Vanessa] A prince who is half stone and the the prince who's half stone has been turned half stone by his wife who had fallen in love with another man and in her rage when he discovered their fair froze the entire world in in a kind of enchantment, turned everybody in the the kingdom into fish, except for her lover and the prince who she[Vanessa] on a daily basis punishes and she's trying to revive her husband who has had his throat slit by the angry prince when he discovered the affair. And then at the in the end, the king gets the the wife, the sorceress, to reverse the enchantment and the kingdom is re vitalized and all the fish turn back into humans. And so that is the second part of the fisherman and the djinn.[Vanessa] And they're they're part of the same story, but like we were saying, they're all just like flowing in one into the other. So it's it's it's kind of like a crazy ball of yarn.[Donna] No, it's like when the the authors we know know as the classics, you can we can let's just reference Mark Twain. A l a lot of his stories are so long because how he used to write was a chapter a week for magazines to just make it longer and receive more money, right? And so this story was really, let's make it as long as possible so I can live longer, right? I mean, let's put it into context. And one thing I also wanted to mention because these stories are horrific about infidelity, and mostly it's because[Vanessa] huh.[Vanessa] Yes, yes.[Donna] The king, even though the king may think that he is all, you know, all powerful and can control everything, inside of the the women's harem, we can call it, he didn't have as much control as he thought. And things happened that he didn't have control about. And so infidel infidelity for the king was so passionately contrary to his nature. And that's why these stories are filled with infidelity, the stories of infidelity.[Vanessa] And they're specifically filled with infidelity of women, not of men. And it's in part because the it's a way for the men to process the only part of women's life that they don't seem to be able to have control over men during this time, throughout throughout history, but it's specifically during the rise of Islam, they're allowed, I believe, four wives and they're allowed to have[Vanessa] concubines during this history I don't know about today, modern day, but they're allowed to have multiple women, but women are have to main remain faithful to one man. and when they don't, it is incredibly frowned upon. and so it's this like processing of men's anxiety about women's sexuality that they feel like they they can't have control over.[Donna] Right. And there's one ri point, a really good point I think you even have in your notes, Vanessa, is that infidelity couldn't even be legally acca accountable to the men because there was not no such thing as infidelity. They could have intercourse with whoever they wanted to. it's kind of like which is kind of funny. I know this is tangential, but lesbianism, it for until the early nineteenth century or late nineteenth century, n a woman could not be convicted of[Vanessa] Right.[Vanessa] Right. Yeah.[Donna] lesbianism because nobody believed that the law didn't believe that it could happen. So homosexual men could be convicted. They they considered it illegal, but women couldn't. And so in the story we're talking about, men weren't in f in men weren't what? They couldn't be I why is the word not coming to me, infidel?[Donna] They couldn't be thank you, I'll cut that part out. They couldn't be unfaithful because it wasn't considered to be unfaithful. They could have sex with whoever they wanted. Does it make sense now? Okay. Okay.[Vanessa] Inf unfaithful. Unfaithful.[Vanessa] Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. All right, where do you wanna start? Do you wanna start at this the story the the whole book? Do you I think that might be a good place to start because a lot of times I like to ground us in the place and the time. but this story, this compilation of stories is not from any one place or time, so it's really difficult for us to ground us in geography.[Donna] Well how about then why don't we go into that? Why don't you explain how it gen it how it evolved into the s the Thousand and One Nights that we know now? Because your notes are fantastic on that.[Vanessa] okay, so let's talk about the origins of 1000 and One Night. So it has three main phases of life. The first is oral, oral storytelling. And we've mentioned this in the past, all folktales are come from oral tradition. and the One Thousand One Arabian Nights is no different. And in fact there were professional storytellers that were primarily males and they would tell these stories[Vanessa] to only male audiences because they were telling it in coffee houses where only males were allowed to frequent. obviously there's female storytelling that is happening inside the home and we'll talk a little bit more about this. But so they start out as oral storytelling throughout this entire region, from Spain to India. So these stories span[Vanessa] Continents, not just one region, but continents. And the I believe it's called the what is the the Silk Road? The Silk Road is where many of these storytellers begin to spread their stories from their countries, and then the stories are taken and told in other countries. And so a lot of these stories will be some of them are from India, some of them are from Spain, some of them are from[Vanessa] Persia, which is modern day Iran. Some of them are from Iraq, and there's just like this massive coming together of all of these tales from these oral storytellers. Then they start to be written down, handwritten in a manuscript form. And that happens in Persia, modern day Iran, we think in in third to seventh century. And then Baghdad, it is there's this[Vanessa] location called the House of Wisdom where a lot of of stories are kept and they copy down the Persian version and then Syria and Egypt also get their version from Baghdad but the they they have different methods because in Egypt they want[Vanessa] it actually to be 1001 stories. Where in the Syrian version only has 271 versions. So it actually comes to the West in printed form prior to it coming to Arab nations. It's collected by a French man, Gallen, I believe is his name, in the 1700s, and he[Vanessa] has it printed on the printing press and now he strips out lo a lot of the Islamic Islamic language, anything that has to do with Allah, anything that has to do with prayers, and he really westernizes it. And so the Western audiences start to read it and they absolutely adore it. then it is printed in Egypt.[Vanessa] with the one thousand and one stories on a printing press designed by a military leader who originally creates this printing press to print out military manuals and then later on he's like okay we can use it for the classics and so he prints he prints out a different version of the Arabian Nights and so the version that we currently usually read is a tr a different translation from a man named Richard Burton.[Vanessa] And he inserts again, so when the French guy translated it, he took out all the body, all the sexual in innuendos. and Richard decides, no, all of that needs to go back in because he really wants to push that in the faces of Victorian England and he wants to like say, kind of make fun of the prudishness.[Vanessa] of what is c occurring in Victoria the Victorian times where sexuality is absolutely repressed and and so his translation is considered quite on the nose, I guess you would say. and so that is the current version that we have translated into English. And so it's it's actually quite a[Vanessa] a crazy story and it's kind of difficult in in fact for scholars to even like figure out where all the different manuscripts are because at one point at one port part point Mongols come and burn down the House of Wisdom in Iraq. And so all of th these like ancient scripts that were kept in this this library are absolutely destroyed. But luckily[Vanessa] the 1001 Arabian Nights had already been copied by hand by different places and were being held in different loc locations. So the irony of all of this is the Western audiences get this story way before, at least a hundred and thirty years prior to they do in Arabia and is it's better received as well because it's because it's oral storytelling, it's very plebeian, it's very[Vanessa] street Arabic, it's not formal Arabic, and so it's really looked down upon by those in the elite. And so the Westerners really admire it while in in many of the Middle Eastern countries they look down their noses at it as street s street stories. Yeah.[Donna] Too colloquial. Well, the other thing that I wanted to comment on is that you made a point of saying that it was men telling men the stories. And we've done a lot of fairy tales where it's women telling women. So I was looking through our our list of fairy tales, and I can't remember exactly which one was I thought it was an African tale. Do you remember? I don't mean to put you on the stop, Vanessa, but which is the fairy tale that especially women told to the girls of the of the tribe. Do you remember?[Donna] But we're gonna think think about that one and if you can remember, we'll get back to it. 'Cause a lot of our stories are just that, is women empowering the young girls in their families.[Vanessa] What[Vanessa] I honestly feel like that is a lot of the stories that we cover. So much of the stories that we talk about are about women processing their repressed sexuality, women repress processing their inability to have control in society. And so a lot of the stories that you and I have touched on are much more female based. Whereas this one definitely[Vanessa] is male based because it's told by males to males, written by males, printed by males. And and so so it has very much that lens to it where I feel like so many of the stories I'm thinking about the one from Japan where she shapeshifts into into a spider. the s the the talking eggs where it doesn't even have one male figure in the entirety of the story.[Donna] Right.[Vanessa] So many of the stories that w we talk about are really a way for females to explore and have express their anger and frustration. Whereas it's the opposite in this case. Males are feel like they are expressing their their frustration and anger with women being unfaithful. How dare they when men are able to have multiple wives and[Vanessa] multiple concubines and they don't even have accountability at all.[Donna] Okay, so you ready? Let's turn that around. Let's turn it around. I you all you usually ask me why I like the story, and I will answer that, but let me ask you, because it's when I when you when you said it was a thousand one nights is when I really, really turned on to the story. But why did you like it before then? Why did you choose it? Do you remember?[Vanessa] Okay, let's hear it.[Vanessa] Yes.[Vanessa] Well, you know, I really like the idea of gin. I read a book I don't w it was at l probably a decade ago, the The City of Brass and it's a trilogy. It's a b a book series I definitely recommend for anyone who likes fantasy. And it it was one of the very first books that I encountered, what is called a gin. And you don't see it in a lot of western[Vanessa] literature and so I really latch on to any stories that are unique or supernatural in a in a way that is something that I haven't seen before. And I think that they are a a an interesting character and representation of a supernatural world that we don't generally see because they are amoral. They can be evil, they can be good. They don't have to, you know[Vanessa] be in one camp or the other, they have supernatural powers, some of them. they you know, they inhabit different places. So I I really liked that that element because they are just such a mysterious character and creature to explore.[Donna] Okay, I love that answer. I think that's really insightful. And for me, again, it's because of Thousand One Nights and the background story really evolved just as much as the his the stories themselves did as a whole collection. And for me, the the heroine, the the person that should be celebrated across the globe, throughout history, is Sharahaz is is Sharaha Zade. Why?[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Donna] I realized that when I was thinking about getting ready for this podcast, I finally understand why I've always sort of been in love with her. In a very in my case, platonically, although if you know whatever gender you identify with, some people fall in love with her for real. she answers the question that everyone has always asked me when about let's say war, about violence, about vengefulness, about revenge. What is the alternative to that? Because I'm against war and people say, Well, what's[Donna] There's always been more. So then, you know, don't worry about it so much. And I'm thinking, just because there has always been something that in my case I believe is absolutely wrong, doesn't mean that there's not an alternative and we shouldn't think about it. People are schooled in war, people are schooled in violence. You know, think of armies, think of politics. If we spent think all the money that is spent in weapons, etc., if all of that money and all of that training were turned into peaceful.[Donna] Alternatives, we wouldn't have war. I'm really convinced of that. And then people say, Well, then give us a solution. Well, I say, I say, fairy tales is the answer. And in this case, it's Sherra Hazad. She gives us the answer in her own beautifully intelligent, insightful way. She orchestrates an entire plan. She doesn't kill the king, she makes him fall in love with her through her cleverness.[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Vanessa] Mm.[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Donna] She she is passive, she is heroic, she's dramatic, and she's even laughing at him because she doesn't he doesn't realize what she's doing to him with her sister, with a partner, with another female presence. She rebukes anyone who resorts to violence, for instance, the king who kills this woman and a different woman every morning, because he doesn't know how to process his own emotions about being betrayed. And she shows us how we can use words. We can use[Vanessa] Mm.[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Vanessa] Mm.[Donna] Companionship, we can use trust, intrigue, philosophy, and human nature to settle conflicts. Does that make sense, Vanessa?[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Vanessa] Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I love that she weaponizes storytelling for good. Right? She she uses st she store she uses stories to reprogram his traumatized brain to be one from a monster to one of one of humanity again. Like she she's able to bring him back from the brink of a psychological crisis.[Donna] There you go.[Vanessa] into the world of of man and woman again. And through that, she's saving the lives of women. She is willing to sacrifice herself in this instance to put everything on the line to make sure that other women are not being murdered by someone who once again cannot process his own trauma. And so she is kind of the original therapist, right? But she's just using[Vanessa] fairy tales. And I think that you're very right. Fairy tales are one of the best tools that we can use to process our own trauma, pr to process our our own feelings. and and that's what she's doing in this instance. She's saving herself. She's saving the women that would have come after her, and she's saving a king from his own destruction self destruction and hoping hopefully revitalizing[Vanessa] a kingdom that has been torn asunder from his vengefulness.[Donna] Beautifully said, right? Because this is the Thousand One Nights also is a celebration of cultures. We kind of think of it as the as Baghdad mostly the Arabian cultures, but it's a whole sort of multi-layered it has details of of many different cultures, which she brings out. And she does talk about infidelity a lot, but again, her j her very manner manner and her sister's devotion to her and the whole game they're playing.[Donna] restructures everything, it reframes everything. And there was an article that you sent me from Literary Hub by Sharon Blackie. Do you remember you sent me that article?[Vanessa] Mm.[Vanessa] I did and I forgot to read it myself, and now I need to go back and read it. Tell us about it.[Donna] It's such a wonderful article and and I'll send you the link again if you don't have it so that our listeners can read it because it's such a beautifully written article. I I sent you a message saying she writes this article in the same way as a fairy tale is written, and she just draws you in. It's beautiful and it's it's light and insightful. And one of the things she says is exactly what you were talking about. Why do fairy tales speak to us so strongly?[Donna] And it's because they show us what we need to be shown. We're usually drawn to a fairy tale that we need right at that minute. And healing comes in the fairy tales we read. So for instance, in this one, it talks about this fairy talk talks talks about social and political and environmental crises. there's always economic uncertainty in our world. But Sharon Blackie says, and these uncertainties has become the norm.[Donna] And a livable future for us and for our children is increasingly hard to imagine. And she talks about women. She says it can be especially hard for girls and young women to find an anchor and develop an authentic sense of self in the world we're living in in this chaos. But fairy tales insist that we face the unfaceable and dig deep for previously unimagined inner resources. Fairy tales, and especially this one, teach us to be savvy.[Donna] Inspire us to grow in confidence, show us how to be bold and claim the future we dream of. Now, don't you want to read the article?[Vanessa] Love that. Yes. Is that a direct quote? Did you just Okay. Yeah, that's really beautiful. okay okay, I have another point that I wanted to make. My father in law sent me, I think it was a couple yesterday or the day before, he sent me this YouTube video all about how how to make storytelling addictive. And it was a marketing video specifically about you know how[Donna] Direct quote, yep. Yeah.[Vanessa] marketers can use storytelling to draw in their listeners. But it really got me thinking about how she was kind of the th the first one written that h does this this through n naturally, right? Because every single time she creates a a cliffhanger. We see this in in books and we see this in movies. We we read up we read too late into the night because the story is addictive, like[Vanessa] the chapter ends and we're like, we have to find out what happens. We have to keep going. and that's what she's doing in the story as well. She she understood the neur neuroscience before neuroscience was even a a field that was studied. She understood[Vanessa] the the need for that that dopamine that we look for in a story when the stakes couldn't be higher when we want to find out what happens to the main character. And she kind of is the inventor of the cliffhanger. Right? If you can rem recall all of these T V shows it from our past where the season the the story ends, but you have to find out what happens to the next one and so you it gets you on[Donna] What is what is the most famous one, Vanessa? You're young. I'm not sure if you saw this. It's not Not S landing. It was the that was what came out of it. It was who shot JR? Do you remember that series? our readers have to tell me who shot J JR. It was the most famous cliffhanger. It was the first time in modern television where this the last the episode ends with a death and you have to f you have to find out who killed him. They made a huge publicity stunt about it.[Vanessa] No, no.[Vanessa] I didn't know that.[Donna] But yes, you're right. She it she began cliffhandling groups. Again, she oughta be celebrated. We oughta know her more. Okay. Yeah.[Vanessa] Yes, I agree. Okay, so let's let's I think this is a good place to talk about the frame story because this is what this book is. the frame story is basically think of it as a Russian nesting doll. So Sheherazad is the outer story. And you take off the top part, and inside is another story. And so you f you find another doll inside, and then you take off[Vanessa] You un undo that one and inside is another story. And that's what's happening in the fisherman and the djinn because the fisherman tells S Sh Shaherazad is telling the king, the fisherman, and the djinn. Then the fisherman tells the djinn a story about a different king. And then inside that story, the king tells his visor a story about a parrot. And then the visor tells the king a story about a She-Gul.[Vanessa] And so there's there's stories within stories within stories, and this was how oral storytelling originated. This is not c this is not just a cultural phenomenon that is found in Arabia. It is global. It is how s oral storytelling worked from the very beginning because this is how we pass on information to the next generation. You continuously embedded[Vanessa] code into your stories so that people would take in this information and then they would be able to recall it. And so stories within stories within stories was just how oral storytelling was was told. And so different books that you might be familiar with, The Odyssey, this was eight hundred BC, this is how that book was told. This was[Vanessa] a very famous one that Westerners are not as familiar with, but one that was very famous in ancient India. The Panchatr Tantra is called the Great Great Grandmother of All Fer Frame Story Collections. there's the Canterbury Tales, is if anyone's read that. This is basically a competition of storytelling. And then I mentioned I a few y I don't know if it was last year. I don't remember when I was reading Don Quixote. And I remember[Vanessa] I might have even mentioned it on the episode that when we were when I mentioned reading Don Quixote, that I kept being like, okay, Don Quixote is running into another character. Great. They're gonna tell them him their life story. And I didn't recognize that for what it was. The a frame story. Don Quixote is a protagonist. Now what makes that book unique is[Vanessa] And why it's called the first ever novel was because it follows one protagonist throughout the entire book. And throughout the book are lots of different stories being told, but you're still following and caring about Don Quixote. And so it is f it is worked differently, and so that's why that book in particular is considered[Vanessa] the first novel, but it's still in this frame storytelling version that was native to oral storytelling.[Donna] Okay, and if we can just make it even more personal, this whole Russian nesting doll thing is in regards to a thousand one nights, it's the search for truth as well. It's you know, we want to go deeper, all right? Let's go deeper and let's go deeper. Unfortunately, people like to just scratch the surface these days by scrolling on social media, and that's a whole argument we don't need to go into right now. So sorry. Tangent, tangent alert. But in these fairy tales, the people who really do dig in is if they're looking for the truth and they're they're getting they want more clues.[Donna] And it also can be looked at as the the search for the soul, because this rushing nesting idea and this the way the story is told in Thousand One Nights and The Fisherman and the Djinn, it's a it's the human psyche. We we don't want to we can see the shell and we wanna know what's under the shell. We wanna know what motivates a person and we wanna know what happened, why that motivation came up. And the the only other the thing[Vanessa] Mm.[Donna] The other idea about the nesting is the cultural complexity, is why people dress a certain way, what happened, what motivated it? why do some people dress that way and some people do another? What are some cultural benchmarks? So the whole nesting idea can be taken to pr virtually anything.[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Vanessa] Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I like I love that. I was kind of ruminating in my head. I've been talk I've been thinking a lot about values and beliefs and that is a lot about like figuring out what it is that is important to you and what happened in your own life that caused you to have that belief and caused you to have hold of value.[Donna] That's it, Vanessa. That's it. Okay.[Vanessa] one i one of my values is I don't like to to throw to be wasteful. And one of the the reasons that was embedded into me was because my grandmother grew up in the the Great Depression and she r she understood the value of not just buying new material goods, holding on to things so that they could b have new life and be restored. And and so th what you were talking about the Russian the Russian nesting dolls kind of got me thinking about[Vanessa] the digging for the soul and digging for why we believe what we believe. And a lot of that has to do with our culture and how we were brought up.[Donna] So true. And I think that people if when they're delving into relationships, is they wanna know if they're being honest with themselves and they want a thriving relationship, if they if they don't want to just live with the person that they've decided to partner with, but they really want to thrive together, they need to look deeper. And every day is going deeper and deeper in what you're saying is is finding the motivation, finding where these things came from. And if we can get to the core of it, maybe one day we will, then we can really deeply understand and appreciate each other.[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Donna] And good Lord, wouldn't that help the world?[Vanessa] Yeah, yeah. But it definitely requires a lot of like introspective s work and that requires taking the time to do it and it's difficult in our modern day go go go reality.[Donna] Instant gratification world, yes. but look where it's gotten us. So let's take the time. So again, it's one of the beauties of fairy tales and especially Thousand One Nights. So where else did you want to go? Your notes are so extensive and they're so interesting. Where else should we go? Yeah.[Vanessa] Yeah.[Vanessa] They are really extensive. Okay, so I wanna talk about King Solomon because I went down a really long rabbit hole on King Solomon. okay, so I know you were raised in a originally in a Jewish household, right? Do you what it was do you have a reference point to him from your childhood?[Donna] Yeah.[Donna] Yes.[Donna] You know, i just as sort of a y a biblical reference, nothing very deep, so I'd be interested in anything you have to say.[Vanessa] Okay. So a lot of times when you ask someone if they know who King Solomon was, the story that comes to mind is the one of two mothers. The the two mothers come to King Solomon with one baby and they both say that the baby is his, and so he offers up his solution, and the solution is I will saw the baby in half, and you each get a half of the baby. And the true mother is the one who says, No, no, you can give the baby to the other[Vanessa] mother, please don't cut the baby in half. And so King Solomon is able to div h he's he's wise. He's the k a wise king and so he's able to figure out that the true mother is the one who's willing to to give the baby up so that the baby will live. and so that's a lot of what American listeners hear when they hear about King Solomon. They he was the wealthy king of Israel, he was the son of David, the David and Goliath of the Bible[Vanessa] he's famous because he had 700 wives and 300 concubines. but yeah, right, exactly. Exactly. Okay, so this is the Solomon the King Solomon of the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. What Westerners and Americans don't know is that he has a whole other life outside of the Old Testament. the Testament of Solomon is written by a Greek[Donna] Again, no infidelity, just a lot of wives.[Vanessa] Jewish Christian writer. Now that is a slightly confusing because this is being written around the same time as the Old Testament. It's being written by someone from Greece. He is of Jewish descent, but rate being raised in the belief system of Christianity, but Christianity is not really a full religion at this point, so it's kind of this like middle ground area.[Vanessa] It is a mystical text that is not a sacred text. So it is not canonical. It is in na it is not in any religion, although it is widespread as oral tradition. And so in this in this test testament, there are jinn and they are part of[Vanessa] Part of the the landscape and King Solomon is not just a king, he is a prophet of God. So he is on the same level as Abraham, as Moses, as Jesus is. He is he's imp very, very important. and[Vanessa] In this text he has a ring, it's called the King the Ring of Solomon, and he's able to rule over nature. He's able able to rule over the djinn in the the area. And so he has this uprightness of character called moral rectitude and uncompromising honesty. And so he in in when Westerners hear of King Solomon, he he kind of has this like mystical feeling to him, a little wizardiness.[Vanessa] But when Middle Eastern or A Arabic people hear about King Solomon, he has a different sense. He is a spokesperson for God. He is he is very important in that realm. He is he has rulership over a lot of the kingdom and his ring, especially, which is the seal of on the copper jar in the story of the fisherman in the djinn.[Vanessa] is indicates to them that this jar is of vital importance. And so when when the Arabs are reading the story that seal of Solomon has much more significance than it does to an American or a Western audience would. so I found that really, really fascinating.[Vanessa] Just to give you s a slight timeline of w this happening, so the Hebrew Bible is written in in the BC era, the Testament of Solomon is being written around the same time as the New Testament starts to be written. Then the Quran is written in 600 to 630 AD. So that's quite a bit later on, which I didn't wasn't aware of. And[Vanessa] The Testament of Solomon, although it's not sacred text, the oral storytelling is widespread and is very much believed and so jinn are a part of the Quran. They are angels are created first, they are made of light, jinn are made of smokeless fire, and man is made of clay. And so it in that order.[Donna] Okay, so Vanessa I'm starting to have people let's just give context though. Why what is this what is the connection then of King Solomon to the Thousand and One Nights? Or you're getting there?[Vanessa] You you walked out of the room when I was saying that. So the Okay. I'll I'll just tell you real quick. the the jar, the the the gin is being held in has the seal of Solomon. So when the fisherman pulls up the jar, the s seal of Solomon is very significant to the reader of i in the Middle East. They would have known that within this jar is something likely a ginn.[Donna] I'm so sorry. Okay, then I'll I'll correct this. Sorry, someone was at the door.[Donna] Mm.[Donna] In Arabic countries.[Vanessa] they would have already had that in their the back of their brain because the King Sol Solomon was the ruler of Jinn. And so American Westerners would not have had that reference. We have no idea that the King the Solomon ring seal has that meaning. But they do.[Donna] Okay, so I will cut this part out and go back. Sorry. So do you wanna keep going?[Vanessa] Yeah. Yeah, so okay, so the K Quran has djinn within it, and then one thousand and one nights are being written or manuscriptly r printed s of about a hundred and fifty years after the Qur'an. But the fisherman and the jinn is considered one of the oldest stories. So one of the original two hundred and seventy stories that[Vanessa] came from Persia. Many of the st other stories come later. They might have the same age, but they weren't necessarily in the original stories. So I found that element of King Solomon really fascinating, that he has such a different significance to the people of that region as opposed to what Westerners would have interpreted.[Donna] Yeah, I love that. I didn't see that connection before. So that makes a lot of sense. Okay.[Vanessa] Did you look into any of the parallel versions that we have that are told in different regions of the world that have a similar storyline?