Fairy Tale Flip Ep 25 pt 2: The Fisherman and the Djinn

In Part 2 of this Fairy Tale Flip deep dive, Vanessa Rogers and Donna Fields trace the same "something sealed, something freed, someone clever enough to trick it back" story across three different cultures — a Brothers Grimm tale about a woodcutter's son and a glass jar, the Greek myth of Pandora (and why it was never a box), and an ancient Indian fable about a Brahmin, a tiger, and a very clever jackal. Then they go even deeper into the nested story inside the Fisherman and the Djinn — the Ensorcelled Prince, the enchanted lake, and the sorceress who turned an entire kingdom into fish out of grief and rage.
Plus: is hope left in Pandora's jar a gift or a cruelty? Why does the villain of the Ensorcelled Prince story turn out to be the most sympathetic character in it? And what does any of this have to do with Mary Magdalene?
This one goes places we didn't plan. The best ones always do.

00:50 — The Parallel Tales: Introduction

01:03 — Spirit in the Bottle (Brothers Grimm)

01:24 — Pandora's Jar — Not a Box

02:46 — The Hope Debate: Gift or Cruelty?

04:55 — The Ensorcelled Prince & the Four Fish

07:29 — Religious Pluralism in the Islamic World

08:47 — Clever vs. Humble: Two Ways to Read the Fisherman

10:52 — Shahrazad as Microcosm

12:00 — The Brahmin, the Tiger & the Jackal

13:49 — What Are Djinn, Really?

15:22 — Iblis, Lucifer & the Fallen Angel Parallel

16:29 — How to Search for Djinn (DJINN vs. JINN vs. GENIES)

17:00 — Types of Djinn: Ifrits, Muses, Shape-Shifters

18:30 — Hidden Realms Across Cultures: Fairies, Elves & Spirit Worlds

20:10 — Djinn, Dimensions & the Lottery

22:41 — Aladdin's Genie vs. the Ifrit in Our Story

28:00 — Symbolism of the Four Casts: Dead World, Restored World

31:24 — The Copper Jar & Islamic Alchemy

32:26 — Three vs. Four: Sacred Numbers in Western & Islamic Storytelling

35:30 — Archangels & Asking for Help

36:20 — Mary Magdalene & the Bible's Mistranslations

38:18 — Closing Takeaways: Intellect Over Brute Force

39:42 — Fairy Tales Can Change the World

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Transcript

0:50

[Vanessa] Did you look into any of the parallel versions that we have that are told in different regions of the world that have a similar storyline?[Donna] I didn't get into that, no. Nope.[Vanessa] Okay, so there's one you might be familiar with this one. It's a grim story. Have you heard of the spirit in the bottle?[Donna] No, keep tell us.[Vanessa] Okay. So this it's a very simplified version. there's a woodcutter, he sends his son off to be educated. The son comes back after years and years, and that the woodcutter is has been worked to the bone. And one day he goes out to work with his father once he gets back from his education and they they sit down and rest, and he's the son starts to hear his voice from under a tree, and so he starts to dig and out of under the tree is a glass jar.[Vanessa] And he releases he opens it up and a spirit comes out and he has to once again trick him back into the bottle because the the spirit is gonna to kill him. and so once again he tricks him in and then he says, I will give you a gift if you release me again. And so he gives him a gift of a cloth on one end, it will heal[Vanessa] anything and on the other end if you rub it on steel it will turn it to silver so it will make anything it will make you wealthy and it will turn you into a healer and so that[Donna] the Grims. The Grims always find something similar. They're just masters. Okay.[Vanessa] Yes, and I they believe that that specifically that story came from the Arabian Knights version, the fisherman and the djinn. So that one s it seems to be a direct descendant of the Arabian Knights version. And then Pandora's box. Are you familiar with that story?[Donna] I love that story. Matt, we should we should look at that one sometime.[Vanessa] Yeah, but did you know? Okay, this this kind of drives me nuts. It's not actually Pandora's box. It's not a box. It's a jar. There was a mistranslation in the sixteenth century, and for some reason we can't correct ourselves. We can't say, it wasn't Pandora's box after all, it was Pandora's jar. Why are we still saying box from one mistranslation?[Donna] Well, it makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, a jar you usually think of a genie in a jar and you think of all the the wonderful things that happens with coming out of the jar. That's what fairy tales have led us to believe, and a box is so enclosed. A box well, I grew up with Pandora's box, that that term. And so I always think of a box as something that could hold a lot of evil, those straight edges. A bottle doesn't have that that sort of reference of being so scary.[Donna] Do you know what mean? So yeah, we talk about Pandora's box.[Vanessa] Hmm. Yeah. So just to give our just to give our listeners who aren't from don't remember the story of Pandora's box, basically Zeus is very mad at Prometheus who has stolen fire from the gods to give to humanity. And at this point in time, humanity has the good life. They don't have labor, they don't die, they don't have sickness. and Zeus decides to punish humanity for in[Vanessa] instead of directly punishing Prometheus. And so Prometheus is being is gifted from Zeus, Pandora, who is like this perfect, beautiful woman, and he gives Pandora a box or a jar and he s tells her not to open it. So of course, put a re big red button that says, Do not push me in front of anybody, and what are they gonna do? They're gonna push the red big red button. And so she opens the box and out comes[Vanessa] grief, labor, old age, madness, vice, anything that makes humanity and humans' life more difficult. And she slams it down and the only thing that is kept in the box is hope. And so it's kind of hotly debated about whether or not that gives humanity hope or it takes it away. What is your read on that?[Donna] I'm sorry, should they say that question one more time? I was reading about Prometheus.[Vanessa] So the only thing that is left in the box that after the box has released all of this horrible, horrid torrent of torture on humanity, everything that makes our lives more difficult, she closes the box, and the only thing left in the box is hope. And so it's kind of debated about whether or not that takes hope away from us, or[Vanessa] it helps us to hold on to it. And so scholars don't seem to have a a grasp on whether or not that is intended to be useful for humanity or another vice or or an inability to hold on to hope.[Donna] Interesting. Okay, because I was brought up to believe that the one unique part of human beings was our sort of our our eternal hope that no matter what evil is happening or chaos or whatever's happening in the world, we always have hope that things are gonna turn out all right. And I truly believe that that good is going to[Vanessa] Mm-hmm.[Donna] Conquer evil. I truly believe that. Perhaps because of Pandora's box, but I've always had the interpretation that leaving hope in the box meant that it can't fly out and be gone, that we still have that in our you know, we have that in our pockets. Always we can always have hope.[Vanessa] So that's I like that that interpretation because I feel like maybe it's kind of the question is the glass half full or is the the glass half empty? And it depends on how you look at the box, on if it's you can hold on to hope or if it's being held from us. it's kind of a question per the individual, if they have an optimistic view of the world and humanity or if they have a[Vanessa] pessimistic view in that we are just damned if we do and damned if we don't.[Donna] Right. Yeah, I won't go there. I'm not sure if I believe in the half full or half empty. I'm conflicted about that, but I do believe that we are good and the core and that the good will come out in the end. And for my belief system is that the the the most contemptible pre people, the most contemptible will find their way back to love in the end. And I think that's you know, that's what the fairy tales tell us.[Vanessa] Yeah.[Donna] Except maybe the original Grim versions, which are so horrific, and we don't we don't read them anymore because they're so horrific. They give us a sort of negative view on what can happen between two beings. But I love I love Hollywood and and happy endings. It works for me because I believe that that's really what's going to happen. Good is going to conquer evil in the end. Love. Right.[Vanessa] Yeah. Yeah. I I love that too. I mean I I I want that in the end for all of us. And what was that Martin Luther King Junior quote the the arc of the moral arc is long but it leans towards light and love, something along those lines. Do you remember?[Donna] No, we should look it up. But I aga okay, let me see. Mart are you gonna look it up or you want me to? Martin Luther King. Yeah, what is say some of it again? The Ark of Love.[Vanessa] I love that quote.[Vanessa] I'll let you do it since you're already on it.[Vanessa] So the moral arc of the moral arc of the world is long, but it leans towards[Donna] here it is. Okay, I've got it. The the arc of the moral universe is long, but it shoot, it just took me somewhere else. Sorry. but it bends towards justice. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice. Or no, but the one you wanted. The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. Huh. Okay. It has to do with un yeah.[Vanessa] Horse justice.[Vanessa] Yeah. I love that quote.[Donna] I again I you know I I lived in Spain for twenty-five years and Spanish movies and novels, my god, they're so depressing. I read them all. I read so many Spanish classics because I wanted to learn Spanish and I wanted to know some of the culture. And it was just so heavy and depressing. And they'd make fun of me because I love Hollywood movie. And I'm like, yes, I want a happy ending. You know, you can say whatever you want about me.[Vanessa] Yeah.[Vanessa] What do you think it is about their culture that what do you think it is about the that culture that really gravitates towards a sad ending? Do they just wanna a a you know, a faucet so that they can release their pent up sadness?[Donna] Interesting question. I mean, I know French movies also go towards the really sad side. Maybe it's Europeans. They they like a more realistic view of it and they do make fun of Hollywood movies. And I say, make fun of them if you want, but those are the ones I'm going to see. I don't need to be depressed and I don't need to be sad. I don't need to pay for that. I will pay to be happier. So yay, Hollywood endings.[Vanessa] Yeah.[Vanessa] okay, so this is something that I wanted to talk about a little bit because I was really confused. so w when I told the second part of the Fisherman in the Djinn when the king goes to the hidden city, I was confused about the four fish because they represent four different religions religions living in harmony in one place. And so my question was, was this actually a thing?[Vanessa] was religious freedom available during i a time period and it actually is true. So it's not religious freedom in the in the way that it's written in the United States Constitution, but people could practice their own faith, they could own property, they could hold government jobs, and they could run community courts. They had to sp pay a special tax if they were not of the Islam the Muslim faith, in exchange for[Vanessa] protection and exemption from military service. and so it wasn't modern religious freedom. There was a clear hierarchy where Muslims were definitely at the top. But compared to medieval Christianity, Christian Europe, where Jews were massacred and heretics were burned, the four colored fish r representing different religions living together was actually truthful.[Vanessa] Which I found really interesting. And that it would be represented in that story.[Donna] Yeah and and I'll go back[Donna] There's a lot of religious tol tolerance that we don't know about because conflict is so much more melodramatic, and that's what sells newspapers, and that's what drags people into watching news. But for 800 years, Muslims had control over the Spanish peninsula, and they were incredibly tolerant of all religions, and they lived in peace for for 800 years, and then the Christian[Donna] the Christian the the church came in and basically killed everyone who wasn't didn't agree with the church is they got rid of the Muslims, they got rid of the Jews, they got rid of anyone who wasn't part of the church. But yeah, these stories are very true that there was incredible tolerance. And I will say even in Israel, and I know this is probably polemic just to say it, before the British got involved, there was incredible religious tolerance and cultural cultural tolerance in Palestine and what became Israel.[Donna] And the British decided that that wasn't interesting enough, so they pitted them against each other. Lawrence of Arabia, the movie that movie is about the British taking over and creating conflict between these religious devices.[Vanessa] Mm.[Vanessa] Huh. Interesting. Okay, so did you do any research on themes or symbolism? I'd love to hear your thoughts about any of that.[Donna] Uh-huh. Yeah.[Donna] I didn't. I start we'll cut this out. I didn't because I was so involved with a thousand and one nights. So I know do you have any?[Vanessa] Okay.[Vanessa] Okay. I do do you wanna do you have anything else you wanna say about the A Thousand and One Nights or do you want me to go into themes and symbolism?[Donna] Okay, so let's just be clear. Are we dividing this into two parts? We should tell our listeners.[Vanessa] I was kinda thinking we probably should just because it's gonna go long. What are we at now? Yeah, we're already at an hour. So I think we should just keep going and we can divide it like we did the Sleeping Beauty episode where we did two separate parts. 'cause there's a lot to go over and I think there's a lot that we haven't touched on yet. What do you think?[Donna] It's completely up to you. I'm done. I mean, I've done everything I wanted to say, but if you feel that you have a lot more to talk about, so here's my question for you. Let's might be a little delicate. How would you feel about doing the rest of it yourself? The second half of it and just go over all the points. Do you need me for the second part?[Vanessa] I mean I think your your take is always interesting and good.[Donna] Interesting. Okay, well let's listen to it and then I'll I'll you know, I'll do what I'm doing, sort of retishing it. All right, so let's tell our listeners that we're gonna be dividing it into two parts.[Vanessa] Okay.[Vanessa] Okay, so we're gonna be dividing th well okay, I'll I'll go ahead and say that and then but you might have to input put this depending on like where it is that we divide it, it might not be this exact spot. Okay. so we're gonna be because there's a lot of information on this one, we're gonna be dividing this episode into two, similarly to how we did the Sleeping Beauty episode, just because there's a lot of information in this particular story and[Donna] Right.[Vanessa] it's it's really fascinating. So instead of cutting it short, we're gonna divide it. So there's two s two parts. So make sure you you tune in to part two.