Career Change

In our latest podcast episode, we tackle the process of a career change, a journey that can be challenging and daunting when moving into a new field. We delve into the lack of structured pathways and support for those wishing to switch careers and discuss potential solutions. We also explore the role businesses can play in facilitating this transition, providing clear and accessible support for those eager to embark on a new career path. 

Dave Cordle
Following careers in cartography and computer systems development, Dave found his true calling as a Career Coach in 2001. Since then, he has worked with clients at all levels and across a vast range of industries and professions, fulfilling his passion of giving people the skills and confidence to define and create success on their terms. 

 Known as The Career Mountaineer on LinkedIn, Dave draws inspiration and analogies for career journeys from his expeditions to high mountain ranges and polar regions. Dave is a UK Registered Career Development Professional and a Fellow of The CDI (Career Development Institute), for whom he is a past President and Chair of the Board of Directors. He has also served as a governor and chair of the Institute of Career Certification International’s Global Career Council. 

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Transcript

0:05

Hello and welcome to today's episode of Social Footprint. My name's Jasneet and today I'm joined with Dave Cordell, where we'll be discussing career change. So it's great to have you with us today, Dave. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for having me. Yes. So just to start with then can you give us a bit of information about yourself, your career journey, perhaps, and your accolades maybe? Yeah, for sure. So I've got quite a varied career journey. I started as a Cartographer when I left school. I didn't do A-levels. I went in and learned cartography. I mapped Africa for a number of years and then had a couple of years mapping gas pipelines in the south east. Before I thought, there’s something... I didn't like the digital mapping that was coming in and I retrained as a Computer Systems Developer. It was a time sort of coming up to the year 2000 when everyone was absolutely paranoid that the whole world would fall apart when we hit 2000 in terms of computer programs and things. And so I retrained doing that. And I had 12 years initially doing coding, but after that, doing mostly business analysis project leading that sort of thing. And it wasn't till redundancy came along after about 12 years that I thought, I don't want to do this anymore. And that was the only thought I had when I knew my job was redundant, was, I don't want to do this anymore and I've got no idea what I do want to do. So I went through a process that took me to look at different options, to consider different styles of work and eventually ended up with career coaching. You know, I guess the fact that I'm still here over 20 years later and I still love what I do, I would say that it was a good process and it brings in together everything that I've done. I help people map out their career journeys now. I help them to create processes that help them make those career changes really easily and manage their careers into the future. And I bring in stuff that I've done outside of work in terms of mountaineering and expeditioning, there's some great analogies with that for creating career journeys, causes you gotta prepare. You've got to overcome obstacles. And eventually, you know, you stand on the top of whatever that, that current objective is, the peak, as it were. And you look out and you go, well what’s my next career journey? Wow - no that's a really beautiful and visual analogy, actually. I really like that and I guess if anybody's qualified to talk about career changes it’s you. You know, having cartography, computer coding, obviously managing redundancy and then relaying your experience and expertise onto others, I mean, that's great to hear. I mean, I guess, you know, heading into the challenges then. I mean, why is career change like so intimidating for people today? Well, I think partly, part of it comes from our sort of national psyche, because we're kind of brought up with this idea still, unfortunately, that we go to through education, we choose a career, and then we work until we retire. And it alarms me that I still, when I meet university students or people in their early twenties, that they're being told, you know, this is the most important decision of your life because it's your career and it's what you're going to do for your working life rather than this is the first step of a career. And there may be many different aspects and journeys that you take on that career. And interestingly, that's the same psyche that people in their like thirties, forties, fifties have when they're considering career change it’s all about oh it’s got to be forever. Or, for until I retire. And it hasn't. No I definitely see that. How yeah career change is viewed as a risk rather than an opportunity. And I guess like you said, it's changing that psyche then so people can unlock the benefits of career change. I mean, for people who want to career change, whether they, you know, like stuck in a rut or they might find money elsewhere. Kind of thing, what obstacles are there that exist today that stopping or acting as barriers for career change? Gosh, I think there are a lot a lot, actually. Part of it is our own, it’s changing our own mindset and rather than going this is risk, is going well what could be possible here for me and just opening our minds to that is... It just allows us to consider different opportunities. I think that the other thing that is key, we're not taught how to understand what our skills are, what our qualities are, what our strengths are. And there are some really, I think, straightforward strategies to allow people to do that. And once we understand what those things are, we can look at them and go, well, right now, what do I enjoy doing? And what am I good at? So we describe them as our strengths, you know, things we enjoy, things we're good at, what are the things that I want to develop and what, if anything, are the skills at this point in my career, I don't actually enjoy doing anymore. You know, why would you want to carry on doing something if you've got bored of it or you've had enough of it? And the other sort of part of that is that that's only half of what an ideal job is for anyone, whether you're running a business or whether you're employed in a business. The other part is about our values, and that's about what's important to us about work and what work needs to do for us. And that's a really important thing. We don't teach it to people. The schools, businesses, don't teach it to their staff. So people end up in jobs where they actually are unhappy or they even hate their jobs and they stay there for years cause they don't know what to do about it. And a 100% you know, as I said, I've coached career coached for over 20 years. 100% of the people I've worked with, who are unhappy in their careers, is because their values are not being met. Well. So it's really critical. But once you know what those things are, you've got the profile of your ideal job, and then you can start saying, well, what's out there that I could do that would suit my skills? And that's where networking comes in. Okay, no that's really interesting. And I think, like you said about jobs not meeting people's values is really appropriate there because I feel like, you know, with job security being, you know, a priority of people and seeming loyal to a company. Again, they put that maybe first rather than their own yeah morals and values. So yeah, that’s really interesting to hear actually. So obviously with the obstacles and the challenges for career change, what impact would you say that has on people then? I mean, you know, maybe economically, emotionally. I think it has for individuals. I mean, people get depressed. They get you know, we all know that when we're stressed, we get things like neck ache and shoulder ache and things and physical symptoms like that come from not being happy in what we're doing. But if we can transform that, it's kind of a systemic win, if you like, in that if we're in a role that we love doing and if our employer is encouraging and helping us to do that, then it's beneficial to not just us and our own health. So in others our internal systems benefit, but also our employer benefits. Because, you know, I don't think we need to go and do massive studies to understand that people who are happy at work produce more, take less time off sick, are nicer people to have at work, are nicer with our customers and clients and things like that. And there actually it goes beyond that, because actually if we're happy in our work, when we go home from work, we're nicer in our communities and our families and we draw on the sort of national resources of things like unemployment benefit and sickness and NHS a lot less because we don't need them. No that’s yeah a really nice idea actually I guess you you're at work most of your life let's say in a 9 till 5 Monday to Friday. So yeah, it's far reaching the impact then I guess. So it is best to make it a good impact then. But yeah no, it's really interesting to hear about the challenges again yeah with the kind of the psyche, the mindset and the impact of that. So what would you maybe suggest then that could happen to enable career change then amongst, you know, individuals or. Yeah, I think there's a there's things that, you know, we have to take responsibility for our own careers and not leave that to our employers, which for people working for large organisations or nationalised organisations. Often that's the case. We tend to fall into that. Well, we'll wait till we're pushed in certain directions. And actually we need to consciously say, well, am I enjoying my work at the moment? And importantly, not just am I enjoying my work, but is it supporting my family, my life stuff that I want, that sort of thing. And I think employers can do a lot by encouraging their staff to understand how they come to be the difference that they make, not just in their job, but beyond their job as well. So, for example, we're here doing a podcast and that's benefiting the people that are watching it. But if they take on board some of the things that we're talking about, probably that will benefit people who they then meet. So it's a ripple effect. Okay. No, yeah a lot to unpack there. I guess it's nice, say like it's not a negative onus on people to make that career change, but it's also giving them that empowerment that they can make the career change, you know, rather than look for it within their workforce or their business. But, you know, say if a business or an organisation did want to you know support maybe more structured pathways for career change or career development, you know, reskilling, upskilling, what might that look like, you know, in the sense of maybe efficiency and, you know, benefits? What might they look like coming from an organisation? So I think from an organisational point of view, I think there are two aspects. There’s the people that are already working in the business and there are people that are coming into the business from outside, so new employees. And I think just being open to talking to people who are coming maybe from a different career, from outside of the organisation and taking the time to understand the skills they've got, the strengths they've got, the way that they contribute. And being willing to add the bit of training that will help them to understand whatever the new career is, can be really beneficial because you actually get into your business, people that are bringing fresh ideas from outside who can come in with different ways of doing things that could be hugely beneficial. But from the, from the individual's point of view, I think organisations can support the existing staff by helping them to take ownership of their career. So by having, the things I talked about earlier, understanding skills, understanding values, understanding their ideal job, and then helping them to achieve that ideal role and accepting that actually sometimes people reach a point, you know, as I've done twice, where actually this isn't right anymore and accepting that that happens, but helping staff to either move on internally and explore different options, obviously that's easier in a bigger organisation, but if not to support them to move out of the organisation, knowing that if they supported someone to make a career change beyond the boundaries of their company, then they the benefit is obviously for the individual, but for the organisation. They're then going out, what a great company. That was. Yeah. You know what a great employer. And then they get more good employees in. Yeah definitely a two way benefit there. So that's interesting. So I mean, you know, speaking of, you know, business and you know your career within your organisation, what about those people who may be coming towards the end of their, let's say, career span or. Yeah, or maybe in an older demographic, what is out there to maybe help them? You know, they might be feeling like, oh, I've only got, I don’t know 15, 20 years left, which is a long time of my career. I'll just stick it out. What would you recommend, or what would you say is out there for them in terms of career change? I think, first of all, to pick up the phrase you just used, don't just stick it out because it's easy. I mean, obviously there are financial considerations for people. Sometimes when people get towards the end of their career, those financial considerations of ease in the middle of a career, typically people have got mortgages to pay and kids that they're bringing up and you know, all of that’s expensive, you know, but when they get towards the end of the career, sometimes they've paid the mortgage off or they've got savings or the kids have left home and that sort of thing. So they've got a little bit more leeway to think about I haven't got to earn a certain level of income. So it takes yeah, that value reduces in importance at that point in their life. And I think at that point it's really important for them to start networking because the true answer to your question is there isn't a lot to support people. Okay, we're not. Yeah, there are sort of the things like the We Are Group do. There are things like the National Careers Service, which are great services, but people tend to forget that people think about careers advice or careers guidance or career coaching, and they think that's for young people. That's for people at school, evening apprenticeships, that sort of thing. Whereas it’s not. It’s an all age thing. And you know, I would say this wouldn't I as a career coach, go and get support. Go and look at the Career Development Institute, which is the professional body for careers people, and look on there at the, there’s a UK register of career development professionals. So these are people who, you know, have got the right qualifications, training, accreditations to support people through the career change. There’s people that specialise in working in schools. There are people there that specialise with working with that older demographic and can help people to move into that next phase of their career, which might include things like semi-retirement or volunteering. There's a lot of volunteer jobs that need a CV now. Oh wow, okay. So getting that support is really important. Okay. Yeah so I guess elaborating then again on like the older demographic, your fifties and sixties. I mean, from my knowledge, I think it was Jeremy Hunt, Chancellor of Exchequer, he said the promotion of returnerships. So, you know, you have apprenticeships or returnerships for people who may be older. They've had a break for whatever reason. They want to return back to work. But it seems like, you know, saying that, there isn't the right government support out there to enable returnerships at such. So, I mean, to your knowledge, do you know of any kind of policy or government kind of initiative for helping people career change or anything that you think should exist maybe within government policy. Well, how long have we got in terms of what should exist? I think the yeah, I'm not aware of any particular initiatives. I know that, you know, various government ministers talk about things, but I don't think they ever address the issue. I mean, if you go back to the other end of the scale, the whole education system is not built about preparing people for their adult life and to be able to navigate these career journeys. And in the same way that we don't have the structures in place, you know, the government's and it's probably not just this government. I'm, I don't think it's a political issue. I think it's a government issue. Whatever colour the government is of, they talk a good talk. But actually, in terms of structure and in terms of actual help for people, it's not there except through organisations like yours, through the National Career Service a bit like WEA and other organisations, I think provide a bit of that. And local job clubs and things like that can help, but it's really important, I think, for people to sort of have that. You know, good question to having in mind is what could be possible for me. Yeah. And to have the courage to go and try it because when we look back, we never look back and regret, or very rarely regret what we did. People tend to look back and go, I wish I had. Or what if I had? Give it a go! Thanks, Dave. Yeah, I mean, to my knowledge, I know that the government have a Skills for Life initiative where they've rolled out Skills Bootcamps in various topics. So what would you say needs to be an incentive or potential encouragement for people who are maybe older to adopt Skills Bootcamps as a way of career changing or upskilling? I think awareness is probably the biggest thing because if you go out there, people are not aware that these things are there and yeah Skills Bootcamp, that’s a great idea, you know, because if someone's looked at the skillset they've got and they're going, well, actually I want to move into I don’t know Telecoms, or I want to move into something to do with AI, or yeah whatever other field it is to understand what their transferable skills are, first of all, that will help them. But then to get the technical skills in that field through a bootcamp means that they're presenting a rounded package, if you like, to their potential new employer. So I think there’s part of it is to help people through, I guess partly through getting their employers to talk about it as well, so that the employee employer relationship becomes more collaborative would be really good. I don't know. I'm sure the government can think of financial incentives and that sort of thing, but I'm not really sure whether that's something that will take off. I'm not sure how well financial incentives work unless you can help people to understand how they’ll develop a career in that area. Yeah. No I guess the monetary incentive there is the fact that they’ll upskill, maybe earn a, you know, a better wage from a better job potentially. But no that's yeah a really nice place, I think just to ask you as well, like, what would your advice be as a career coach you know, to people who might want to career change no matter, you know, their age or circumstance? Okay, I think so. Firstly, as we've already discussed, get aware of what your values are so you know what work has to do for you. Understand what your skills are and the ones that you want to use so that you've got that profile of an ideal job and then do a career brain jump. That's my technical term for it, but do a career brain dump. Just sit somewhere quietly and dump a list of everything out of your head that you think you might possibly want to do. And you may end up with a very long list. When I did it, by the way, I have four A4 pages. I really had no idea. But then you can look at each thing objectively. and just. Just look at each thing. And the idea then is just to whittle it down and cross things off until you've got two or three or four remaining and then use that profile of, you know, the skills you want to use and your values to start exploring those options. And don't just start applying for jobs because actually recruiters are very they're very good in certain respects. But in terms of if you're changing careers they’re not that useful. But go and network with people. Go and find people who work in the areas that you're interested in working with and don't go and ask them for a job. Just go and say, I'm interested. I'm looking for new career options here. So I just love a bit of your time to understand from, you know, your expertise and your experience what it's like working in this area and how I might fit in. And that way you discover sometimes jobs that you've never thought of. I was looking at teaching and counseling and when I did that, that's when career coaching came up. Oh, brilliant. So yeah, that's my advice. Go and explore, but talk to people. You know, yeah that’s really great advice there. But yeah, thank you. It's been great to talk to you today about career change and it's great to have you on social footprint. Super. Thanks very much.