Inclusive Remote Working

This podcast episode delves into the critical topic of remote roles for disabled individuals. As the government urges more disabled people to transition into work-from-home roles, we explore whether the job market offers enough remote opportunities and if organisations provide ample support for this work mode. 

Guest Dr Calum Carson

Dr Calum Carson is a Senior Research Associate within the Division of Health Research, Lancaster University. His current research project is the Inclusive Remote and Hybrid Working Study, which explores how to make remote and hybrid models of work more inclusive for the needs of disabled people.  Beyond this, his research interests broadly revolve around corporate social responsibility and the Decent Work Agenda, specifically around low pay and the needs of underrepresented groups and individuals within the labour market.

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Transcript

0:05

Hello and welcome to today's episode of Social Footprint. My name is Jasneet, and today I'm joined with Dr. Calum Carson, where we'll be discussing the interesting topic of inclusive remote working. So hi Calum, it's great to have you on today's episode. Hi, great to be here. Please tell us a bit about yourself? Yeah, sure. So I'm a Senior Research Associate at Lancaster University. I'm currently working on a project funded by the Nuffield Foundation on inclusive, remote and hybrid working and how to make those models of work more inclusive for disabled workers in particular. So yeah, it's great to be here today to talk about that. Yeah, it's great to have you on. I mean, that all sounds really fascinating. I think for me and especially our listeners who are so used to almost a hybrid working model now, kind of post-pandemic post-COVID-19. It's really interesting to see that research being done into it and how to make remote working inclusive of different demographics and different types of people and different preferences. So, I mean, from my own research, I've seen a lot about remote working, in the media in the news, lots of controversial comments from, you know, people of interest high up in government. And I think one of the key things that I picked out and may well be a key thing that our listeners have picked out is inclusive remote working, specifically for people who may be disabled. So obviously, that being kind of your niche of work there, it would be really interesting obviously to have that discussion with you today as part of our podcast. So just to give a bit more information to our listeners as well. Recent comments that I did kind of refer to have been made by Laura Trott, who's Chief Secretary to the Treasury. So it was last year where she kind of urged people to do their duty as such, as citizens and get back into work if they are capable, if they can. I mean, that was picked up by a lot of charities who kind of represent people of all disabilities in that it's applying undue pressure to people who may be, you know, disabled in some way or another. So what are your thoughts on this in terms of the urging of people to remote work? Yeah, I mean, we're certainly of the opinion that that's a very unhelpful kind of individualising of the situation. This idea that disabled people are simply not looking for work or just turning down opportunities for remote roles and things like that. We've interviewed 45 disabled workers so far in their own experiences and we've done a survey, of over 1400 responses of what disabled workers as well, who've experienced a remote or hybrid working. And yeah, the facts just don't bear out comments like that. We're really getting through this idea here of just like this conditionality blame the individual focused approach to employment support and yeah the facts just don't bear out that an approach like that is the most effective way of getting disabled workers into employment and to stay in the labour market. Okay. Yeah. So it's really interesting to have the facts then to support or kind of refute in this case what's been said by government ministers. So, you know, in terms of this, you know, undue pressure, the fact that remote working is on the increase. Do you think that you know, the current state of the job market does reflect this need for more remote roles? What's kind of, you know, from your perspective, the state of the remote working market? Yeah, I mean, quite simply, there simply aren't enough remote jobs to go around. We, on a cursory day when these plans were announced, the back to work plan and everything we looked on the government's own find a job website to find, you know what kind of remote working jobs there were available for disabled workers that would be relevant. We only found 1413 out of over 140,000 jobs that day actually fit the description of working from home that would be relevant for disabled workers. A lot of them say they're remote working, and then you look into the devil of the detail and there's some time what made in the office or on-site in different places and that kind of thing. And then the remote working jobs that are available, some of them aren’t available to disabled workers for other reasons, such as, you know, maybe they're younger and they house share and they just don't have the space. There are issues around getting specialist equipment for people with particular conditions. And of course, they're competing against every other worker who wants a remote job at the same time for these jobs, of which there aren't enough. And so they’re already at a disadvantage this can often mean that disabled workers end up opting into poor quality or insecure jobs, such as zero hour contracts. Our colleague Rebecca Florisson at the Work Foundation has produced the Insecure Work Index, which has shown that disabled workers in the UK are 1.5 times more likely to be in severely insecure work than non-disabled workers. So there are a lot of issues around this that make it a lot harder than just telling disabled people to go get a job, as if those jobs are all out there already and they're available and suitable for disabled people. So yeah, we, we kind of like a bit more of a nuanced and helpful approach to this rather than a blaming individual people approach. Yes, it definitely seems that the choice doesn't lie yet with individuals in that case, that it's, you know, the control is taken out of their hands. Like you said, it's only just over 1000. Is it? Suitable roles that you know for remote working so I mean, you know, that's shocking really. So, you know, in terms of remote roles themselves then, what would make them suitable to kind of the vast majority of people, but more specifically as well for kind of that specific workforce? Yeah, there's a lot that can be done on the employer level. One thing we found from the project so far is that it's important to have kind of really effective organisational policies around remote working in place. But just the existence and the proper training for line managers who manage disabled workers who work remotely is absolutely key just to make sure that workers, disabled workers feel taken care of. They don't feel too isolated at home. They're not missing out on promotion or pay prospects by working from home. And they're not invisible to the world, to their colleagues and them and the managers and the people who might promote them or extend their contracts. So more needs to be done on the line management level as well as the organisational level. Then on a policy side, more kind of rights for disabled workers to request or just have access from the beginning to certain rights and protections in the workplace, such as specialist equipment and things like that. So there's an employer element to this as well as a policymaker element to this. And then just a wider kind of cultural acceptance in terms of inclusion of just workers and employers and senior management just all being a bit more accepting that disabled workers do have particular conditions. They do have particular needs. It's not that people are being lazy. They just want to work from home. They don't want to do the commute. You know, there are a thousand reasons why people find it easier to work from home. Neurodiverse People have, for example, better advantages to like do their workplace in the way they want, like their lighting or things like that. People with mobility issues, if they take the commute out, they're not going to be off sick as much because they're not going to be in as much pain. So there are so many issues why remote working works for disabled people. And it's I think there is now a kind of onus on employers and policymakers to come around to that rather than kind of approaching this a bit more kind of suspiciously, which I feel like is the climate we're currently in. That's a really interesting example of the triple you gave there in terms of it's kind of employer led, policy led and also just the general kind of acceptance and perception and stigma that's associated as well. I think maybe focusing a bit more like a business employer level then. Is there anything that businesses, organisations, associations can do to increase the availability of remote roles? Yeah, I mean, job design at the initial stage comes into this quite a lot. I think often there are more jobs that could be done remotely that are just considered office-based roles or hybrid roles because that's how things have always been done and or just because it's simply easier to consider them that way. So there are a lot of issues around, like we've had a lot of complaints from disabled workers about poorly facilitated hybrid meetings where a lot of people are in the office and you're out of the office and you just don't. You feel like a second class citizen in those meetings. So there's stuff that can be done within the office that will help facilitate more inclusive remote working that way. Making sure that remote and onsite workers have equal access to development and training opportunities so that people who are working remotely, their careers do not stall. And one of the big ones we've also found is just making sure that disabled people who need adapted or specialist equipment to do their job, just must have that equipment in their home for those who are working fully remotely, but also for those who are working in a hybrid way at home and in the office rather than one or the other. So there's quite a few things there. And then, yeah, just in terms of line management training, just to make sure that line managers are aware that people have diverse needs and that they have the kind of emotional intelligence and compassion to approach that in an understanding and kind way, rather than a it's on the... it’s the responsibility of the disabled worker to prove their disability to them, to get the support they need. And so it's a it's yeah, it's understanding support from day one rather than, you know, it's disabled workers’ responsibility to do that as they as and when they go through the job. Thanks Callum. That's really interesting to hear. I mean going kind of back to the beginning stages as well of employment, how perhaps can businesses really make the recruitment and application process more inclusive as well of various people? Yes. So there's a lot they can do here in terms of just I mean, just on a wide stance, just making sure that they are obviously open to recruitment for applications from disabled candidates to, you know, maybe join disability confidence schemes and other kind of civil regulation schemes that that help prove that they are a disability friendly employer. They can avoid the kind of the avoidance of prejudice, language and common biases within their job application, their job descriptions. Blind resume reviews can be quite useful as well. Asking kind of inclusive non personal questions during interviews can be quite good and then just making sure job descriptions in themselves are just very inclusive, very unbiased, are very welcoming to disabled people. To say that, you know, from day one we would like to know your reasonable adjustments and then kind of workplace tools such as disability passports and things like that, where if a person moves within a job to different managers there, this passport goes with them. That explains their conditions and their reasonable adjustments from day one, and that makes sure that people feel welcome and inclusive and they don't always have to explain themselves if they do move around or go up within the company. So there's quite a bit that can be done there. That's yeah, that's yeah. A lot of things that can be implemented by businesses and none, you know, seem to far fetching a far reaching as well for, for businesses to implement. So I mean, on that, to your knowledge, are there any kind of businesses or organisations which are kind of leading the way in terms of creating more inclusive roles in office and remotely for disabled people? Yeah, call centre sector is doing a lot around that, so that's something that's followed over from the pandemic, which we've been quite surprised by but happy to see. The banking sector. There's Lloyds in particular are doing a lot of great work around inclusivity in terms of remote working, The IT sector. And you know, software engineering, those kind of more digitally based sectors are doing a lot around this. You can also find like kind of best practice in terms of inclusive remote working in almost every sector that it makes sense to have remote working roles in. And what we're currently doing with our research is looking at employer case studies of best practice to see where that is, to see what other employers can learn from the employers who are doing it well at the moment. And just kind of what the challenges have been, what the advantages have been, what their journey has been since the pandemic towards this. Because for a lot of employers, remote working was something that didn't exist too much before 2020. And so, yeah, there's a lot that can be learned from employers to employers and but yeah, particularly within those sectors, we've seen a lot of best practice, but we're also seeing in other sectors as well just a bit more singularly. Okay. No it's great to hear that kind of those huge sectors as well in terms of the banking and finance are really leading the way. And then the case studies sound like a really crucial way as well for people to learn and really share that positive impact. So I guess it's not really policy related or I guess it can be in some ways kind of the work culture as well. So how might other companies emulate a really good remote working work culture. Yeah, that is the million dollar question is now the million pound question. I think initially just making sure that there is a certain level of expectation expected from all employees when they begin a role within an organisation that this is an inclusive working environment, people are on an equal playing field. Disclosure of disabilities from senior management... the senior management level can also be incredibly important to make disabled workers who are new within an organisation feel comfortable in, you know, disclosing their own conditions and their own kind of reasonable adjustments that they need. So there's a lot around that. And yeah, just as I said before, like just creating workplaces that take disabled people at their word about the nature of their conditions and the consequences of those conditions. Rather than just making them feel like they have to justify and explain themselves a lot of the time. So yeah, it's about that kind of inclusive culture, organisational wide, rather than senior management down, but that senior management level does matter quite a lot in just setting a tone for an organisation in terms of inclusivity. Yeah, no, I really like that. Almost kind of breaking the hierarchy then with the kind of senior management disclosures. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that for me personally as well, you know, having that link with people who are in the kind of upper echelons of the business is something that's really pivotal in making you feel like you belong and you're part of the kind of bigger business. So yeah, that's really interesting. Okay, so going back as well to kind of what Laura Trott, Government Minister, said as well about obviously urging people back into work even if they are disabled. She mentioned that, you know, it’s all about putting the right mechanisms around you know people to really help enable that so where businesses aren't able to put those mechanisms in place or they are maybe failing too. Is there anything that the government are doing or are on the verge of doing to really help kind of disabled people get back into work or find the right roles for them? They are, I feel like they're making a lot of piecemeal efforts in terms of kind of a bit more employment support, a bit more kind of understanding and in terms of employment support. But we don't really feel like it's going far enough and it's being done in a kind of broken apart way rather than a kind of real sustained approach. We'd quite like an employment support approach that kind of sees work and health as the same sides of a coin and kind of where people aren't forced into the first job they find, which might not be right for them or their condition, you know, and that way they might leave that job quite quickly and be back out of work then in the same place they started really. And so we'd quite like a bit more of an understanding approach at the employment support level, at the jobcentre level with work coaches, just to kind of make sure that the employment support system is facilitating kind of inclusive remote working there. And they can do that via working a bit more with employers who are already doing this inclusive, these inclusive practices to spread that out across their sector and across the labour market more widely. But we'd also like to see a new very kind of heavyweight employment bill come forward that gives disabled workers more just rights within the workplace in general. Around a lot of these things. And I think that would solve a lot of the issues. A lot of what we're seeing at the moment is kind of rights around remote working and disabled workers putting light discrimination cases forward. A lot of that is being kind of developed. Policy has been developed by case law from new cases in Supreme Court and things. And we feel like an employment bill would kind of put a very good block there to just give disabled workers a lot more protections in the workplace, because the Flexible Working Act 2023 does give them more rights to request flexible working. But we don't feel like it's currently strong enough to really make enough of a difference to make employers really turn the corner on inclusive, remote working. So there's different elements there that policymakers and the employment support system can work on. And we’d quite like to see them do all of it, quite frankly. Okay. Yeah, so that's yeah. Really interesting to hear though so on the employment relations, kind of the Flexible Working Act of 2023, do you think that has made a difference to kind of the business culture? Because I'm aware that, you know, requests for flexible working have now been made statutory based obviously on that act. But I've also heard that, you know, businesses can put their business case forward for rejecting those statutory requests. So do you really think it has made a difference or maybe more can be done? I think more can be done. I think it's a positive steps forward, but I don't think it's a solution that ultimately is going to lead to much more kind of rights here for disabled workers. I think the... I think what we'll be really interesting to see is the reasoning businesses give for rejecting it and then to see what goes forward from there. It would be good to see if that does happen a lot from the 6th of April. A very kind of proactive government approach there in terms of like perhaps like a naming and shaming of bad employers that do it in the same way they do with the low pay and underpayment of the National Minimum and Living Wage, so yeah regulation is only as good as enforcement of that regulation. So it feels very much like a situation in flux and we're very keen to revisit this and monitor the situation as it as and when it develops. Thanks for that Calum, I mean, you know, are there any kind of final words to leave with our listeners from yourself today? Oh. Well, just to promote the project a bit, really. Yeah. If there are any employers listening who are quite passionate about inclusive, remote and or hybrid working just to get in touch with us at c.carson1@lancaster.ac.uk. We will have our final report from the project that will be coming out in September of this year. So that would be like a best practice guide for employers about inclusive, remote and hybrid working. So yeah, we're excited to kind of get to the next stages of this. And if anyone's interested in getting in touch with us, please do so. That's great. Great to hear that there’ll be that resource as well available for businesses and organisations. But yeah, please listeners get in touch with Calum. But yeah, it's been great to have you on Social Footprint to talk about inclusive remote working and we look forward to kind of seeing more of your work. Thank you. Thank you for having me.