Programming Lions

Ep.79 Detransition Reality w/ Jordan Campbell

• Matt Morstad • Episode 79

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Are the tides turning with gender ideologies? In this episode, Programming Lions sits down with founding partner of Campbell, Miller and Payne, Jordan Campbell, a dedicated attorney advocating for the rights of the detransitioning youth. Hear how the legal system is evolving to support those reversing their transition. 


Links:

Website: https://cmppllc.com

X:  https://x.com/detranslaw


TIMELINE

00:00 Intro

02:52 Shift from Corp Law

05:42 Gender dysforia 

08:35 Acceptance or social contagion

11:13 Role of trauma

13:30 Fox appearances

15:45 Parent advice

18:40 Typical case

28:05 Rapid Fire

Welcome to the Programming Lions podcast. Jordan Campbell is with us. He is an attorney with a special story who felt a unique calling and has started a firm representing detransitioners in malpractice and negligence cases. He heard countless stories of trauma ridden, young. He's heard countless stories of trauma ridden young people with regret and has committed himself to helping their cause. Get ready for some unique stories, insights about his work holding these institutions accountable. Let's go. Yeah.

JC - Dad:

Jordan Campbell. Thanks for coming on the podcast We're excited to get into some interesting topics with you But before we get into the really important work that you're doing We thought we'd maybe start out with a little bit of personal stuff. And so max had a question So I heard that you have seven kids. That's a lot. Who gets to choose what you all watch on tv?

JC - Jordan:

We're not a huge tv family in terms of tv shows and we don't typically watch much during the week unless I get to throw on Monday or thursday night football to have on the background I get the impression you guys like football We've got a super bowl winning lawyer at our firm, which is pretty cool

JC - Dad:

Let me ask you another question. With a big family like that, what is best for you? Breakfast like. Oh.

JC - Jordan:

Breakfast is so much food. My wife is a phenomenal cook. I've lucked out. She went to culinary school. She used to work in kitchens. And so I, I will tell folks that I eat better than anyone I know. And she also likes to make Most everything, you know from scratch. So cereal is usually only maybe once or twice a week on school days And our kids go to school two days a week and then it's home school the other days it's chaos We got to get everybody out the door and if she didn't have time to make oatmeal then that we're breaking out the cereal otherwise, it's you know, 10 eggs pancakes Where she's making double the recipe batch she made

JC - Dad:

a commercial kitchen.

JC - Jordan:

She made waffles this morning Every meal is a big production.

JC - Dad:

you're making it happen. That's not easy to do. Balancing, fitness, fitness. Putting healthy fuel in your body and seven kids. That's a big task, but it sounds like you're managing mom and dad struggle with us too. I cannot imagine us like to have five more of us I mean you're like grocery list. Oh man, grocery bill's gotta be off the charts. Wow

JC - Jordan:

my gosh. Y'all, When we go to Costco, there's no greater, like, phrase that strikes fear in the heart of, of husbands than just the basics. Never dull moment. Like you said,

JC - Dad:

Yeah. Nice. Wow. Wow. We know that you've practiced a lot of commercial law. For most of your career. Why did you co found and kind of start this new legal practice Campbell, Miller, and Payne? Alright,

JC - Jordan:

so, great question. Short answer is I felt like that's what God was calling me to do. I spent the first almost 10 years of my practice doing what's called commercial litigation. So that's just kind of big business. Civil lawsuits, so businesses suing businesses for breaches of contract, or I did a lot of antitrust law, but I used to enjoy reading a guy named Matt Walsh, yeah, he's been very active on the sort of gender identity front for years now, he doesn't write much, but he's got a podcast. So I'll check it out. And it happened to be an episode talking about this issue and. Sent me down an intellectual rabbit hole and I spent this next several months sort of digesting. Anything and everything I could sort of on the topic. So medical literature studies articles that, you know, from the Internet and the more I looked into it the more I couldn't turn away if you will You see a lot of stories that are very similar and they're very heartbreaking and it's these very broken individuals. I felt very vividly in the moment, like God kind of tapped me on the shoulder or hit me over the head and said, well, go do something. I decided, okay. Well, I will leave my commercial litigation practice and I will use the giftings and trainings that I have been given as a lawyer to stop what I thought is, is a, a pretty big societal evil in a, in a practice gone off the rails in the medical community.

JC - Dad:

This was new, you don't have cases really at this point, right? And so you're funding it yourselves until you can get some case roll going and all that kind of stuff, right? Yeah.

JC - Jordan:

right now. We also represent a whistleblower and we were involved in and another kind of offshoot litigation out in California. 13 detransitioner or, or families of, of kids who have committed suicide in the midst of a transition we've got cases, but to your, I think what you're getting at is, is they're all contingency. And so we have very little active income flowing in take at least 2, if not, probably more likely 3 years before we started seeing recovery because

JC - Dad:

Right.

JC - Jordan:

these cases are hard fought. And they, they don't, as you know, the wheels of litigation don't turn quickly.

JC - Dad:

Yeah.

JC - Jordan:

do this? It's like, we're just a startup company, you know? Yeah, it's a law firm, but we're a startup. And so we've just raised some debt. And that's how we've been able to afford feeding seven children. While while, while the firm doesn't make a ton of money in this, this first few years.

JC - Dad:

Do you think more parents or youth are being Are being taken advantage of with gender dysphoria, dysphoria,

JC - Jordan:

Dysphoria. Yeah, you got it. It's an interesting question if you step back and look at just the, the numbers, right? If you look at the population of trans identifying individuals in the country, Historically, up until the early 2000s, it has been about 001 percent of the population, and within that, it's typically, it's, it's been about 95 percent are adult males identifying as female. Well, starting in 2007, with the founding of the first gender clinic in the country, in Boston There's been a slow uptick and then an explosion in the mid 2000s. And so now you're looking at, it depends on the study, but some studies have shown as high as 3 percent of the population amongst youth are now identifying some sort of gender nonconforming, and so you have seen an astronomical spike in terms of sheer volume of individuals. You've gone this incredible demographic shift where it's no longer adult men that are that are identifying as female, it is overwhelmingly minors and it is girls, about 70%. Now are of the trans identifying population are girls. And so it brings up the question. Okay, well, what's How do you explain this, seismic shift in population? Now to the, now to your direct question, which deals with gender dysphoria, that is a medical diagnosis. And so there's a little bit of a difference between having a trans identity or experiencing the medical term for gender dysphoria, which is best described as severe discomfort. Because of the incongruence between your physical biological self and your gender identity. And so there are, when you get that diagnosis then there are potential options presented to treat it, which would include, puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and ultimately surgery. And so the question of are people taking, being taken advantage of with gender dysphoria, that diagnosis, I think the best way I could say is, is I think it's being over diagnosed, and I don't think there's enough exploration of why, potential reasons for why that may be, a child may be feeling this way, for why there's been this seismic demographic shift. What's happening to these kids who are going from diagnosis. To some sort of medicalization, some sort of life altering body permanently changing prescription and procedure. There's a lot of I think a lot of bad practice happening there. And that's sort of what our, our work focuses on.

JC - Dad:

I'm curious, like in your research, thoughts you could share in terms of like social contagion versus actual medical diagnosis and what the like ratios might

JC - Jordan:

There's been this massive explosion and seismic demographic shift. How do we explain that? On the one hand you have a certain set of activists Who say that what you said it's because it's now socially acceptable it used to be that in the 90s and 80s and 70s it was so taboo that that you know It was just everybody suppressed it or didn't want to do it because you'd be you know, a social pariah whereas now today, everyone's more accepting and it's and so it's allowed this, latent population to come out and accept and be embraced. That's the sort of reasoning on 1 side, and I don't think it holds almost any water. I do think maybe there's a very small level of that. That's kind of happened in general with the LGBT community. And so there may be an element of that, my experience and anecdotally dealing with the people that we deal with. It is overwhelmingly and if not almost exclusively the latter, which is that it is. I truly do believe a social contagion, I think are the people that we talk to would tell you the same clients or folks reach out to us. We may not be able to represent. I've heard clients talk to us deep regret this is a young woman who in high school. No history of of being a different gender until they hit puberty is what I almost see exclusively. We've we've talked to. Something like 125 150 potential clients or families now at this point, and not a single instance of an individual who knew they were different from a young age. Usually it deals with, a very complex history, socially, family, mentally and then hit puberty, and oh my gosh, don't be like my body, don't feel comfortable with it and then that ultimately leads to, I adopted this trans identification A bunch of my friends were doing it. So, in my experience and I, and there's also plenty of research that suggests that is, we've seen social contagions, Throughout history, I mean, when I was in high school, it was, it was body dysmorphia and eating disorders. I think that's a lot less present now. And as you may know, I mean, obviously, that was a bigger issue for females than males and research would show that females are more, susceptible to social contagion. What could possibly explain this again, seismic shift, demographic shift, this explosion in population, I think that's the most logical answer. And experientially and anecdotally, that's absolutely the answer that I've seen.

JC - Dad:

Okay. That's interesting. And I mean, given your exposure to, like you said, hundreds of cases of basically D transition regret. That's primarily what you represent and see, right? The people that you see and represent or visit with, how are their backgrounds? Do they have Childhood trauma typically or are they normal and then this happens like is there any correlation that you can drive from that?

JC - Jordan:

Yeah, it's a very similar kind of profile and that is exactly what we've seen now having started this firm and interviewed well over 100 of these individuals or their families who are looking for help. And it is typically, by the way, our numbers bear out that just over 70 percent of the people we've talked to are female. So, again, to that. shift from 95 percent to now 70%. It's interesting that that has actually borne out almost exactly what the research is showing. Every single one of them has a tough, tough background. It is some combination of broken family. Of a history of abuse, whether that's just physical or sexual, very common chaotic family life. Early exposure to extremely graphic pornography. A sort of concomitant slew of mental health issues. So depression, anxiety this one's fascinating. Almost everyone we've talked to is on the spectrum. So some some form of autism ADHD is also very common. And so you've got this array of, of, of mental health comorbidities. And you've got these traumatic backgrounds and then you have these kids that are. Entering puberty, where, and I'll just take our most recent our, the client whose case we just most recently filed last week, Clementine as she would tell you she was sexually abused as a 6 and 7 year old, and then would later be sexually abused again at 13 horrific story but suffered significant trauma, and so when she is, as she's entering puberty the idea of of, of being growing into an adult woman. If that's what that, if that's what womanhood is, it was, it seemed unappealing to her. And so that's of the reasoning of how she came to, and then, you know, is told that this is going to solve it and you're born in the wrong body and da da da. And, and that is what led to her sort of identifying as trans for a period of time.

JC - Dad:

well she's the one that we saw that you were talking with on Fox

JC - Jordan:

Yep. That was me and Clementine.

JC - Dad:

Yeah, it's maybe worth noting, you've been on Fox News and Megyn Kelly fairly recently. I don't like being on the news.

JC - Jordan:

it's, it's interesting. It's funny. Ron was on with Laura Ingraham on her 2nd night of prime time. And we're just going, what, why are we bunch of knuckleheads, being asked to come on and comment on X, Y, or Z, we're just four dudes, you know, who are chilling in our B level office space with our ping pong paddle and, you know, our big, large families and, and so to, to Be considered interesting enough or an expert enough to come talk or give an opinion on something is still it's it's kind of strikes me as funny, but it's cool but at the same time, you know, you're only there because of some really really sad heavy stuff. I've never felt so fulfilled and purpose driven happy satisfied with, with my professional life, while at the same time dealing in utter sadness and darkness and just heartbreak on a daily basis is an odd sort of dichotomy, weird place to be, but it's it's awesome.

JC - Dad:

Well, I imagine that it feels rewarding if you can help some of these people through and into the next stage of their life and potentially hold people accountable that have real negligence in terms of how they treated, diagnosed, or gave guidance to some of these young people. I'm sure you have some pretty disgusting stories of things that have happened. It's a topic that a lot of people are very curious about, as, as you well know hence on Megyn Kelly, and on Fox News, and Laura Ingram, it sounds like. And so, A lot of people are interested. They're concerned just like you were to start this. And so that's one of the reasons that we wanted to talk to you is it's a fascinating topic to understand because as You know, as people, we want to be empathetic. We want to understand, but we also like want to be honest, truthful. And that's part of compassion in our view is like, you've got to be honest about what's really happening and objective and sometimes normalizing certain things can actually be more damaging than just being honest and truthful with people. I digress. Let's get, let's get, get into the next question. The boys had. What advice would you give to parents and their children when they say that they want to transition?

JC - Jordan:

That is a tough one. That's a serious one. So short answer is don't. That's the best advice I could say to you. I have seen firsthand far too many times the, the, that there's something going on there. And so, so the short answer is don't the, the longer answer is if you're a parent And you've got a child, who's 10, 11, 12, 13 years old, 14 years old, who says, I'm transgender. I want to transition something along those lines. Man, that's probably a serious cry for help just based again on, on our experience and what I see on a daily basis. Why is my child feeling this way? You know, in Clementine's case the adults in her life did not know about the sexual abuse that had happened to her at, at age of six or seven. If you're a parent and you hear that, more likely than not, there's something very alarming going on with your kid and we need help. If I'm the parent and my child says that, then I for sure am not going to send them down a path of medicalization, because the other thing is, is one, it's, I think there's, you know, it's a cry for help. There's something going on. And two, the. Proposed what, what is far too often the proposed treatment for it is if it's early on, they will try to put them on puberty blockers. And then most parents don't realize. And you heard this and just keep using Clementine's case, because it's the most recent, but this is very emblematic of many of the cases that we have filed and have heard from. The parents are told there's puberty blockers 100 percent reversible, completely reversible, no long term side effects. That's a lie. That's wrong. It's completely wrong. They're also not told that over 95%, maybe 97, 98 percent of, of kids who are put on puberty blockers for, for gender dysphoria. Go on to be put on cross sex hormones, and that is absolutely catastrophic on a teenager's body. And those, those effects are for sure irreversible. And again, I see it every day. You, you can't come back from it. So, absolutely push back if you do go and see, you know, a medical provider who's, who's proposing this kind of treatment. Resist it. I think that the most important thing you can do is get them into some sort of psychotherapy of mental health treatment to, again, address what the why. Why is my child, let's, let's try to figure this out without doing something that will forever impact their body in a way that they may come to deeply regret later on in life.

JC - Dad:

Yeah. Yeah.

JC - Jordan:

That's, that's what I see every day.

JC - Dad:

So what does like, I don't know. Actually, like, what does like a typical, like, case kind of just look like?

JC - Jordan:

Good question. And, and we've kind of already touched on it, right? The, the typical client profile is what I described. So we've shared sort of what their background looks like, right? And then the, the sort of next question I think that your question gets to is, okay, well then what happens to them, right? And so it's, it's this again, typically young female. Who has this sudden onset of gender dysphoria who is told that transitioning will solve everything. What we've exclusively seen so far is parents completely caught off guard. And saying, well, I don't know what to do with this, but I'll go to see the experts. Right. And so again, in Clementine's case, her parents decide, okay, we'll take her to see the experts. What just so happens they're in the backyard of the largest pediatric gender clinic in the country at LA Children's, which is run by 1 of the foremost promoters of. Quote, gender affirming care and recognize experts and leaders, and that's a woman named Dr. Joanna Olson Kennedy. So in her case, well, shoot, we're right next to one of the best people in this space. And so they went to see the experts. And then what we typically see in all of our cases, as happened with Clementine, is the parents are lied to. And whether that's being told that puberty blockers are completely reversible and that's often why parents go Okay. Well, I guess if it's not going to hurt, you know, let's just buy time Let's just buy time is what you do. We're just hitting pause on puberty. It's not true. And that will typically happen as again was the case with clementine at the very first visit Maybe the second visit or if it's a teenager

JC - Dad:

They don't do a, they don't do a, like, a full, like, diagnostic therapy session or something?

JC - Jordan:

Almost, they're supposed to, but almost every single case we have filed in person that we have spoken to, if they're young enough, it's they're put on puberty blockers that quickly, or if they're already 13, 14, 15, they're prescribed cross sex hormones, if not at the first visit, then by the second visit. And again, no meaningful mental health evaluation. And again, like with Clementine, all of her clients have these complex mental health comorbidities and histories. And so from our perspective, that's where the medical negligence and that come out practice kicks in. And so, so you've got the complex client. You've got going to see the experts, the doctors who very quickly and far too, too fast fast track them onto this. this life altering medicalization and then a smaller subset of that will continue to, to, to sort of spiral mentally again, as was Clementine after she was on testosterone, she started exhibiting psychosis and hearing voices and seeing hallucinations and she got sexually abused again. And by 14, she was told to get a gender affirming with air quotes for those listening. Double mastectomy. So 12 puberty blockers, 13 testosterone, 14 mastectomy. And she's even encouraged by her doctor at 17 to get a quote, gender affirming hysterectomy. So that's pretty typical for what we see is, is a, the complex background and then medical professionals who just. Sort of rush to get this child into what I would describe as a conveyor belt of sort of, quote gender affirming

JC - Dad:

and boys, you might not be familiar with the term of mastectomy and hysterectomy, but that's basically removing the female body parts. Oh. You cannot go back. Oh, wow. Well think about it max if you had your stuff You Taken off or tucked in, but then like, you can't really like bring it back.

JC - Jordan:

So just taking testosterone or estrogen if you've already entered puberty is going to significantly impact a. Kids fertility or or sterility, but when you combine that with puberty blockers to never enter into puberty and then cross it's hormones, it is almost 100 percent certainty that they're going to lose a woman will become infertile or man will become sterile and this is something that we've heard expressed to us. And again, Clementine will tell you 12 year old 13 year old there's no way that a child can consent to what it would mean to lose the ability to have children, or they can't conceive of it. These are irreversible, there's no coming back, and kids, they can't appreciate what it means to have a baby.

JC - Dad:

What does it feel like, and how does it, what does it look like, basically, when you win a case against one of these big companies? Thank you. Yeah,

JC - Jordan:

end of what's called the discovery process. So, in the lifetime of a lawsuit, you get the suit is filed and then there's a short period beginning where the defendants can either what's called move to dismiss. The lawsuit basically saying there's no grounds for this lawsuit or they can answer the lawsuit. And then that sort of will sort of start the clock on what's called the discovery phase. So both parties in a lawsuit get the opportunity to send requests for documents that they think are relevant to the case, sort of ask, you know, written questions called interrogatories. And then ultimately, you Things called depositions were essentially interviews with a lawyer. You have sworn under oath and then once that typically happens in our cases, you'll go into what's called expert discovery. And so you've again, I'm getting into the weeds legally. Sorry, but medically. If you've got a medical negligence case, you have to bring in experts to say that the doctor that we're suing didn't live up to the standard that they should have lived up to. And this is what that standard is. So we've got to get into expert discovery, and we've got to have lots of experts because we're suing lots of doctors. And so that's sort of where our furthest along cases are, and then once all that's shaken out, and you go into pre trial, and you prepare your exhibits, and blah, blah, blah, and then if the case does not settle, then And most cases, by the way, in today, most civil cases do settle. But if they don't, that's when you go to trial. And then ultimately, what a win looks like for our firm or for our clients, would either be a settlement that is satisfactory. So, settlement means both parties, before you go to trial, that you negotiate and you say, Okay, we'll drop the case and we'll avoid going to trial if you give us this. It's just an agreement that says, Okay, We'll, we'll let the case go, but, you know, there's typically a financial component to it. Right? And so, for, from our perspective a win for our clients would either be a very a settlement that is very favorable to our client. Or a big win at trial and because of the damage that has been done to our, to our clients, our plaintiffs that could look like a multimillion dollar verdict, for instance. In fact, that's what I would expect it would look like. So I'll let you guys know, maybe we can have a follow up if we,

JC - Dad:

maybe we can do a follow up once once one of these gets yeah, it gets through its cycle. And in terms of the defendants in this, is it the hospital? Is it the insurance company, the doctors, all of the above?

JC - Jordan:

No, so it's, it's most of the above. It's basically anybody who is involved in the provision of her care. Related to, you know, the gender dysphoria. And so that's typically a mental health professional. So therapists that cheered on or rushed into the trans identification without asking questions, without evaluating where it's coming from. And then it's usually a pediatrician. Sometimes there may be an endocrinologist in there. And then, the surgeon, if the, the client went on a surgery, and then sort of any of the institutions. the hospitals that they're at, or the facilities that they operate. So those are typically the defendants the insurers are not,

JC - Dad:

Okay,

JC - Jordan:

but they are, they are the ones paying for the lawsuit

JC - Dad:

Right, I was going to say most, yeah, most of these places will have, malpractice insurance.

JC - Jordan:

About half the states a little less than half of 22 states have passed 23, maybe some form of ban on on. What I'll just say again, gender medicalization of minors. And it's more aggressive in some states than others. In Montana, so the issue before the Supreme Court is, does this violate the Equal Protection Clause of the U. S. Constitution? The Montana case is a little bit different. It's a state court, state constitution. So there's going to be a little bit of difference between state courts. And in that case, the procedurally, you've got law enacted, you have plaintiffs challenging the law for certain grounds. And in this case, they challenge the law not just on equal protection grounds, but also on right to privacy grounds. And so, in that case, the district courts, the first court that heard it said we think this law could get overturned, so we're going to grant what's called a preliminary injunction, which says at this early stage, we're going to block the law from going into effect. The Court of Appeals heard it and said, I agree, and then the Montana Supreme Court said, yes, we also agree. Ultimately, that, that case now gets kicked back to the trial court. So it's just that preliminary, that initial injunction, and now it's going to get going to discovery and all that stuff we talked about. But even if the Supreme Court. And Scrimetti says no, this doesn't violate the Constitution. Well, now that, if you had to take that precedent and apply it to the Montana state court case, at best you could say that the Montana equal protection argument fails, but then the, the injunction still is, is held, upheld by the, by the right to privacy. Argument. So it wouldn't even totally overturn it. It's again, probably way too legally for y'all, but that's just kind of, you asked it, so I had to answer.

JC - Dad:

Wow, okay Well, we are not attorneys but I appreciate that there are people out there that are and they're fighting for the best interest of our kids like yourself and your colleagues so Without further ado. Let's get into a fun section. I think jordan you're gonna you're gonna love this. It's called rapid fire All right, so max loves this. Yes, I do we will start in 3, 2, 1. If you had a super power, what would it be?

JC - Jordan:

Fly.

JC - Dad:

Would you rather die to a great white shark or a flaming hot volcano?

JC - Jordan:

Oh, Great White Shark.

JC - Dad:

Excluding us, who is your idol?

JC - Jordan:

My wife. That's the right answer, by the way.

JC - Dad:

is the right answer. That's a good one. Would you fight a one 1, 000 pound duck or 1, 001 pound ducks?

JC - Jordan:

No, give me the thousand one pound ducks.

JC - Dad:

What is the coolest invention in your lifetime?

JC - Jordan:

I think the iphone's probably got to be up there

JC - Dad:

have you ever been stuck in a bathroom stall without toilet paper?

JC - Jordan:

Oh, yes, of course I have.

JC - Dad:

That's all. That's it? Rapid fire concludes. With that, why don't we wrap up the podcast. But Jordan, I wanted to thank you for coming on. This is a hot topic. It's a really interesting topic. It's a sensitive topic and we have a lot of empathy for what's happening. And so it's really interesting to hear your perspective and the cases that you're seeing and learn more about all of this today. And we really appreciate what you're doing. You're out fighting for good causes and, and helping people that have been traumatized and caught up in the system. And so, we were rooting for you and we wish you luck and we hope your clients find a happier ending in all of the. tragedy that they've gone through. Nonetheless, thanks again for coming on and and going through all this with us.

JC - Jordan:

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you guys for having me. And may I just say as you expressed admiration for, for the work we're doing, I just love it. That you guys are doing this with you. You got your sons and you're doing this together. I think that's so cool. And kudos to you boys, by the way. This takes some serious I don't know, courage, skill to be able to, to do your podcast like this. So awesome. Love it. And keep, keep doing what y'all are doing. I think it's really cool.

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