Programming Lions

Ep.97 Creating Safe & High-Performance Products w/ Jenn Thatcher

• Matt Morstad • Episode 97

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In this episode, we are joined by Jenn Thatcher, founder of Zebra, a non-toxic and freedom-loving brand. Jenn shares her journey from discovering the harmful ingredients in supposedly natural products to creating Zebra after her son's rare brain tumor diagnosis. She talks about the importance of transparency in product ingredients, her commitment to avoiding Chinese-sourced materials, and the brand's dedication to black-and-white values derived from the Bible and the Constitution. Jenn also discusses the challenges of being a small brand in a big market, the misleading marketing practices of major brands, and how Zebra stands out by meticulously sourcing safe and effective ingredients.


IG: https://www.instagram.com/zebra.usa/

IG: https://www.instagram.com/jennthatchercollection/

Website: www.yayzebra.com use code GSDNATION


00:00 Intro

00:02 Meet Jenn Thatcher: Founder of Zebra

00:30 The Birth of Zebra: A Personal Journey

00:53 Zebra's Unique Philosophy and Products

02:44 The Story Behind Zebra's Name

09:20 Challenges and Triumphs

14:53 Importance of Clean Ingredients

16:47 Marketing and Misconceptions

17:42 Reflections on Entrepreneurship

24:05 Closing Thoughts

Welcome to the Programming Lions podcast. Today, Jen Thatcher joins us, founder of Zebra. Jen believes her children were victims of dirty products and a system that is designed to trick consumers. Her son, Jack's diagnosis of a brain tumor, made her even more vigilant at researching every single ingredient in the products that her family was using. She realized that products are not always as natural as they seem. She decided if she wanted to do something truly safe and high performance, that she was gonna have to create it herself. That is how Zebra was born. Jen's faith and love of country is woven right into Zebra, not only are the ingredients black and white, but she lives by the idea that the Constitution and Bible are black and white as well. Zebra is a non-toxic, freedom-loving brand. So let's hear more about it.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Jen Thatcher, welcome to the Programming Alliance podcast. We're excited to have you on. We had a great opportunity to meet you at Am Fest late last year, and so that's how we got connected. We started using some of your products thought it'd be great to have you on the show and talk a little bit about health and, you know, ingredients and other things that can help us live a healthier life.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

The boys had a number of questions lined up, but we did, we met up at AM Fest and we were really excited about the product you had and we got some samples, and then we've now been using, what do you We Using Boys. Why don't you tell it? Tell I'm using, tell everybody. The deodorant and then I think you guys call it, no, sorry. Yeah, the alpha deodorant. I think that's the name. No beta. Just alpha. Yeah. And then also the toothpaste. The toothpaste pretty good. I'll say that. And the deodorant smells nice. Yeah, I got it on. I got it right now. Yeah, it's pretty good. We, I switch, well, you know, I don't know, it's like weird talking about deodorant, but we, I was using the, the Sasquatch brand and it would like literally stain my shirts and everything and it would like wear off and it got weird. But this stuff's good. I've been using it now. It's basically since Fest and it's pretty solid. And now Will's using it too. So

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

love to hear that. Amazing. Yep. We designed that for the alpha male. So y'all are, y'all pick the right one.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Okay. That, that perfectly describes us, right, boys? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and then we also, there's a couple of different kinds of toothpaste. So there's the, like the normal paste, but my wife uses the tabs. You kinda like chew'em and like it's pretty unique.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Yes, the toothpaste, tablets, those are my favorite too. They're just like a toothpaste and tablet form. You just chew it up. It brushes normal, but you just make brushing a little bit extra fun.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Well, maybe a quick plug, like how long have you been in business? How do people find out about Zebra

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Zebra is available online right now@yayzebra.com and we named the company's Zebra after my son was diagnosed with a brain tumor when he was 16. So. He ended up having brain surgery and while he was actually in surgery, the surgeon came out and said this was just a super rare case, and he actually ran to the computer to do some research while he was in surgery. And afterwards he said that he believes my son's case was one of 26 in the world. So it was just a super rare brain tumor, not genetic. And so after he came home, I started kind of searching for the cleanest possible products, even though we were already using organic, natural products, and we've always had a very clean diet. I've always been very cognizant of that, but I just wanted to make sure as he was healing, that we were doing the best we possibly could for him. So I sat down with our toothpaste, deodorant, everything we were using in our household, and I went line by line with ingredients just to double check everything. And what I discovered was just very upsetting that all these organic and natural products we were using and paying a lot of money for, were actually still full of chemicals, hormone disruptors and toxins and petrochemicals. So I just started searching for products that I felt were better and. Products that would be effective, and I couldn't find any that met my standards. And so it was kind of at that moment that Zebra was born. And so God gave me the name Zebra in a dream, like later, a few days later, and it's ingredients that are black and white. So. The goal is to was for me, was to create a company that was so black and white that people wouldn't be mis marketed to. They wouldn't be fooled. There's nothing tricky. There's no gray area with zebra. So every ingredient is meticulously sourced. Our packaging, we do extra things to make the product safe, including not sourcing any of our toothpaste or deodorant ingredients from China. So what a lot of people don't realize is they're American made toothpaste is made of a lot of Chinese ingredients. So we are the only toothpaste brand in America that has vowed not to use Chinese ingredients in their toothpaste. And that's only because China doesn't have. The type of safety regulations. And they're also known for adulterating ingredients and kind of, putting in. Different things into ingredients to maximize their profit. So that being said, we just do a lot of things different. At Zebra. We're truly black and white in all we do. And then I decided, you know, in that theme that we also honor God and that is being black and white like the Bible. And I'm also a freedom loving individual. And so we're black and white like the Constitution. So we wove all those brand values into our brand at Zebra, truly black and white in all that we do.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

All right. Amazing. I love that. I love that. And how is your son doing today?

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Post brain surgery, he's never been the same. So it's one of the reasons I am so fanatical about providing products that are truly different because. Of how deeply toxins affected our family. And, and I can't narrow down exactly what the thing was that caused my son's brain tumor. It, it could have been a bunch of things, but what I do know is that, you know, when toxins are introduced into the human body, it results in disease. And so we had already been doing all the good things. I thought and when I recognized that these natural products we had been using weren't what they said they were, it was super upsetting.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, that's tough, good for you for taking a big step and didn't find what you needed and developed your own, basically. So that's really a cool story and I love the tie in with freedom and faith and everything. So, with that, why don't we get into some of the questions we prepared boys.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Sure.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Other than toothpaste, everybody's household, right out of everything, what if there's one product that you think nobody should have? What do you think it would be or like a dangerous product that we're not aware of thats in our house maybes that people just don't like?

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Well, I think most people in the holistic community know this, but I think non-stick pans that people are using every day to cook their food are so dangerous because they have the, the PFAS, the forever chemical on them, and you're introducing that, you know, into your food multiple times a day if you're cooking with that. So that would be one easy thing to remove from your home that would definitely level up your health. But in the same vein, people don't realize that their floss most American floss is made in China and has PFAS on it as well. So that same chemical that's on your non-stick pans is also hiding your dental floss. So, you know, people are thinking they're being healthy. Most people don't like to floss, but they do it anyway'cause they know it's good for them. But unknowingly they're putting that PF os in their mouth. There's a luxury clean floss. Actually the number one luxury dental floss in America is PFAS free, but it's actually made of recycled water bottles. So then you're flossing with microplastics. So it's, it's PFOS and then microplastics. And then there's a couple other PFOS free dental flosses that are called expanding floss, and they're also made from a polyester filament. So same thing. They're made from plastic, so. That's just another tangent that, you know, these companies are able to market themselves as clean, but.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Still, nobody wants to be flossing with microplastics or PFAS. So at Zebra, we also have floss, which is made of silk and beeswax from France and xylitol. So you're actually using what we believe to be the cleanest floss in the world.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Wow. Wow. That's crazy. How hard is it to get started as a small brand, a new brand, and perhaps you know, a clean brand when you're competing against these juggernauts in the space.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

It's hard to say because I, I just view Zebra as so different that I don't feel like we're like any of the other players in the space, although, although they were maybe bigger. You know, I view it kind of as a David and Goliath and if we're gonna honor our customers and we're gonna honor God and honor God's design. I believe that we will ultimately grow to be very big and be successful, the idea behind Zebra also is that not only are we wild free, we wanna be left alone. Zebras don't wanna be contained. We also don't look like any of the other animals in the space. There is nothing that looks like a zebra in the world. We're just doing it so differently that I feel like ultimately. We're creating something that is just completely unique in the marketplace. I was actually fired by one of my deodorant manufacturers because of the way that we were sourcing and requesting to do business. So we came in to every meeting. The first question they asked as a supplier was, what do you want your unit cost to be on the deodorant? What do you want your unit cost to be on the toothpaste? And I, you know, was completely new to the personal care industry. I'm a mother, I'm a fed up mother. I knew nothing about chemistry or creating a brand. I actually had. Just ingredients in mind and I just knew that I wanted products that worked and were not toxic. And so I would have these meetings and I would say, how can you tell me how, how would I know a unit cost? When we haven't sourced the ingredients yet, but what they're used to is the big brands come in. The big brands say, I want this deodorant stick to cost$2, and I'm gonna charge X for it and my profit margin's gonna be this. And then they back in the ingredients. So then the supplier is going and finding the cheapest ingredients to make that product, to make sure they're getting that profit margin for the company. And we do it differently, whereas we say. Source the best ingredients and tell us how much that costs and, and we'll go from there. So it's just a completely different mindset. We wanna honor our customers, wanna honor their health, we want to provide the cleanest product regardless of, of what that looks like.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

What you just said that you have no science background in this at all, right? How are like. So did you then just ask them to just come up with the best ingredients they could find or like, did you just like search it up on Google, like how to make clean toothpaste or something like that?

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

I didn't do any Google searching as far as formulas are concerned, but I did do a ton of research as far as what ingredients work, promote oral health, what ingredients work to, promote. Moisture and skin and all of these things. And then I came to my manufacturers with my lists, and of course there were edits that needed to be, to be made because I don't have that science background. So they they have chemists and I also have. An in-house chemist that helps me pull the formulas altogether. But there have been many times through many products where they have come back with, with a product and I said, no, that that's not clean enough. That ingredient isn't suitable. We're gonna have to rework it. I've been told that's not gonna work. When we were originally launching the company, we had a mouthwash slated for our, one of our launch products. And I did not wanna use what's called a solubilizer in the mouthwash because that's what brings the oil and the water together. But typically it's a chemical. And so they said You can't launch launch a mouthwash without a solubilizer because it's gonna be cloudy. And I said. Okay. Like, I'll call it the cloudy mouthwash. Like I really don't, don't care. And I think my customers will appreciate that knowing that that chemical was left out on purpose. So, what ended up happening with that product was. I had placed the purchase order and the purchase order was six figures. We ordered a lot of units. I sent it to testing, and that product ended up having a bacteria in it that can put people in the hospital. It's a very serious bacteria and so. I stopped development on it and I started asking the lab questions as to how that could possibly happen, and based on the information I received from that particular lab, which this lab makes probably 50% of the toothpaste and personal care products in America. So they're making very big brands. What I found out was. Really upsetting and the safety practices that are happening there are almost non-existent. So I canceled the purchase order and you know, they told me I wasn't gonna get my money back. And I said, that's okay. I will never work with a manufacturer, a lab, or anyone at Zebra that's gonna put my customers at risk. So, we'll scrap this product and we'll go make it somewhere else.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

I like that you don't want, you know, your customer's getting sick. I have a question, but like, so what is one ingredient that most people think is healthy but is not healthy at all?

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Oh, I love talking about this. This ingredient is hydroxy appetite. So hydroxy appetite is a mineral that was introduced kind of around the COVID era to. I think the holistic community, because the holistic community was already aware that fluoride is detrimental to the health. It's a neurotoxin. It can calcify the penial gland and do all sorts of other things to the body. So hydroxy appetite came on the scene and everyone that knew fluoride was dangerous, was so excited because this was being marketed as a remineralizing ingredient that was completely safe. I, myself included, was using the Hydroxyapatite toothpaste before my son's brain tumor, and that was one of the toothpaste that I sat down with and was just really disappointed in some of the ingredients. So Zebra did a lot of research on every ingredient before we launched our toothpaste, and we decided to leave hydroxy appetite. Out of our final formula because of what we found about Hydroxy Tite. So it can actually wreak havoc on the body itself. I believe it's actually detrimental for the teeth too, but if the teeth weren't even an issue, it causes oxidative stress in the body. It can calcify in the tissues, it can cause lung issues. People are seeing hydroxyapatite calcifications in breast tumors and kidney stones. So it's just to me, an ingredient that is very scary, understudied in humans and being very mis marketed to the holistic community, especially,

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

marketing is such an interesting universe. I think I read a story at one time about the invent. Maybe it was like the inventor of toothpaste did it, and they added the mint in because people, even though their teeth maybe weren't more clean, they felt like it was more clean because of the taste. And so it's the same thing with like putting. The blue crystals in Tide don't do anything. They're just there because the marketing was like, it's got the blue crystals, right? And so that's, it's a unique tactic, but when you're actually trying to promote health, you don't wanna put weird stuff in there just to sell something. And so I, but I see a lot of, you know, a lot of brands obviously do that. And so the, the history of it when you look at it, like what are these little things that they put in actually do or the whitening elements of this or that. I suspect that a lot of them don't do anything. It's just marketing plays,

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Absolutely, totally agree.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

unreal. That, unreal. What a world this is kind of just like a random question. I dunno why this came up in my mind. Have you ever considered like applying to go on Shark Tank?

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

I've, I've gotten that question a lot. Yes and no. One of the best things I believe about Zebra is we're a self-funded company, so because of that I haven't had to answer to anybody else other than God. I make all of those decisions in line with you know, just honoring his design and what I believe he would want for our customers. And I've never had to compromise. I'm really glad at this point that we don't have any investors because I don't have to answer to anybody.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Hmm. Well, good for you as an entrepreneur. That's very liberating. I can imagine. We watch a lot of Shark Tank will's, like, oh my gosh. I love that show. That's why. Yeah, we watch a lot. It's so cool. So what is one thing that you've learned that you do not like? Throughout this entire journey,

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

I would say. You know, it was very eye-opening to me to learn that these USA made products were still using ingredients from China. It just kind of shocked me. I don't, I, I don't know why it shocked me, but it did. I think the whole process has just been very eye-opening as far as our FDA regulations and what they allow in personal care products and how they allow things to be marketed. So, for example, there's no definition of natural. So anyone legally can put natural on a label, and it's up to the consumer to challenge that. So.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Wait, what? Wait. Natural doesn't have a definition,

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

not per the

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

so you can just call something natural and it doesn't have to be natural.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

correct. So you can put natural on the toothpaste, and unless a consumer challenges that in a court there's really nothing that can be done because the FDA hasn't defined what natural is, which is why. We decided we wouldn't be using that term in our marketing, but we use ingredients that are black and white because to us, natural doesn't mean anything in this world. It's like a super overused term, and we just wanna be, as forthcoming as we possibly can as far as how we operate in the space.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

We talk about like the FDA and what they do and what they don't do, there's been a lot of hype around the MAHA movement, making America healthy again. We actually had the chance to talk with. Cali means who you probably have heard of or know. And he spoke a lot about the corruption and collusion between these agencies and, and the government. And, you know, they seem to switch roles between FDA and big pharma companies. And without putting you on the spot too much, what's your take on the level of corruption? Do you think that Maha's gonna sort some of that out?

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

I sure hope so. I think Americans have really started to wake up to that corruption, especially post COVID era. We all lived through. A really weird science experiment of watching government be way too pushy about our personal health decisions. So, I think that woke a lot of people up, not just to big pharma, but to how our food supply and our products are being. Just compromised and how they're just not as healthy and how these government agencies aren't necessarily looking out for our best interest I hope Maha is super successful, I think anytime a government is involved in anything there's a chance for things to go sideways.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

We had good advice from Callie when he was on. He said, like, think about going the closest to the source of the thing that you want. And, and that's probably the best place.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

When you're sourcing your information, I think it's important to not just trust the studies. So like when Zebra forms an opinion about anything, any ingredient that we're putting in our formula, we're looking at studies, but we're looking at consumer experience. We're looking at what God says we're looking at. You know what other moms have said, and we're, we're using a blended approach because if you just looked at the studies when you were being told, you know, in 2020 to, to take the thing you'd been burnt, right?

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

not just told like, but for, you know, anyway. Yes,

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

exactly. So, so people had discernment. They were using, they were looking at studies, but they were looking at discernment. They were reading God's word and they were using a blended approach. And so people who opted out of that. We're, we're using multiple pieces in putting it together like a puzzle. So that's what we do at Zebra, that's how we form our formulas, is we're not just looking at a certain study because studies, 97% of studies the scientist agree with whoever funded the study. I think my customer is the awake mother. You know, or the awake consumer who has realized at some point along their journey that a product or a food or something they had used was not what they thought it was. And so they wake up to that and then, somehow they're introduced to Zebra and they appreciate the fact that we do use a different decisioning as to far as to how we. Have created this company and how we make our formulas. I think there's a lot of fed up consumers in this country who don't necessarily trust the person in the white coat to make their health decisions. We are in charge of our health. We don't need to outsource our health decisions to anyone else, especially not for our family and for our children. God gave us the perfect blueprint for, you know, what health looks like and it's in the Bible. As close as you can get to things that God designed, which are whole foods and true ingredients

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

great advice as we close out, can you remind us one more time how people would get in touch with your products?

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

Yes, we're at yayzebra.com, which is YAY zebra.com, and they can follow us on Instagram at zebra dot usa, where we post a lot of educational content and also product updates and all sorts of good things like that.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Matt-webcam-00h_00m_00s_352ms-StreamYard:

Awesome. Okay. And we'll drop that in the description so people can check it out. Thank you.

Jenn_Thatcher__Zebra_-Jenn_Thatcher-webcam-00h_00m_01s_252ms-StreamYard:

you all so much for having me. I appreciate it.