Programming Lions

Ep.104 Red Rising: Communism & Teens w/ Jonah

• Matt Morstad • Episode 104

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Join us on the Programming Lions podcast as we welcome Jonah, a familiar face from our Youth Roundtable debates, to understand his drastic political shift from liberal to communist. In this first part of a two-part series, we explore what led Jonah to embrace communism as a political philosophy, discussing the influences, theories, and motivations behind his transformation. We also delve into the broader trend of young individuals showing interest in communism, addressing common critiques and looking at future possibilities. Stay tuned for an enlightening and thought-provoking discussion. #Communism #YouthPolitics #ProgrammingLionsPodcast


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00:00 Introduction

01:16 Jonah's Political Journey

03:16 Youth and Politics

06:46 Social Media's Role

12:34 Shift to Communism

16:03 Understanding Communism

20:05 Critiques and Historical Context

21:15 Competing with Capitalists

21:38 Marxism Leninism

22:49 Lenin's Third World Theory

23:38 Implementing Communism

24:16 Revolution

26:23 Reconciling Communist Failures

29:04 Grassroots Movements

30:28 Common Ground

31:42 Toxicity in Politics

34:00 Different Perspectives

36:58 Final Thoughts

Welcome to the Programming Lions podcast. Today, Jonah joins us. You might recognize Jonah as a fine young man who is on our Youth Roundtable debates. Earlier this year, he was a left-leaning individual and apparently he's shifted more left to the point of being interested in communism as a political philosophy. So we're gonna dig into that with him and try to understand what led him to this. Where is this going? This is gonna be an interesting series'cause it's gonna be a two. Part series. We're gonna talk to Jonah today. And then we've got another young man queued up all the way from Australia that's gonna give us part two of this series. Intent here is to try to understand what is driving this trend of young individuals being interested in communism as a political philosophy. So we're gonna unpack that a little bit. What led them here? What are some of the prime reasons that they're interested in this, and we'll address some of the common critiques. Of course there's not enough time here to do deep critiques, however, we might do a follow up on that, so stay tuned. Nonetheless, you might think of communists as long-haired basement dwelling doobie smokers, but that's not what we have here. Young men, highly functioning, very sharp. So without further ado, let's get into it.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Jonah, welcome to the podcast. It's great to see you again. It's been several months since spring When we had you on our round tables, you were a regular participant in those, which was pretty cool. So we all kind of know each other on and off. Camera or live sessions, but tell us a little bit about what you've been up to. Maybe a quick recap

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

so I'm 15, I'm up in Michigan. I I've been sort of developing my political ideas. I'm definitely pretty different. In terms of my ideas from where I was when we last spoke. And that's due to a lot of what I've been doing over the summer. And then, yeah, I've mostly just been trying to keep up with schoolwork now.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Okay. What are some extracurricular things that you're into?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. So I do theater. I read a bit and then try to keep up with the news.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Get into some questions, boys, like you, you want to give Jonah any updates on our summer yes, we had fun. Basically the whole thing, we were either here or we were up north in that place has a lot better weather than the. 110 degree weather here. So we were chilling basically up there. And, and we try to, we try to escape the heat a bit, but it's now we're back in Phoenix school's back in session, alright, well let's let's, maybe we'll start with this. So yes, you were on our round table. Because you had very, let's say, left-leaning views. We had people with different views on that and we might restart that. It was kind of fun. But it was great to get some different perspective on there. And ultimately this podcast is just so the listeners know, is, is really about getting a different perspective. We're always curious how other people think so that we can kind of pack that into our own ideologies and, and worldviews. And so we're interested to see how. Kind of, you see the world and so it'll be good to catch up on that. And it's likely different than the way that we see the world. And so I, that's always an interesting way to sort of look at things. Alright, so I think we got some questions queued up. Let's go, boys. All right. So first of all, I heard that in your intro you're talking about news. So what's your main, what's the main news channel that you listen to, to get your info?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I don't usually listen to a news channel. I mostly, scroll around on either Instagram or Twitter, which usually has breaking news stuff come up pretty quickly. And so then from there I go to some website or article. I try to get a pretty diverse range of stuff. I don't get it from one source is what I'm saying.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Hmm. Are there particular people you follow that you think are like more trustworthy than others? When you aren't sure about something, like where do you go to get the, like the meat or the truth?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. So I think in terms of,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

I.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

People who I generally trust to at least tell me when something is happening, I'll trust individual reporters people like Hassan Piker. I don't agree with him on that much, but. When something new is happening, he's generally one of the first people to know about it, and he's consistently live. So it's easy to sort of tune in and see what stuff is happening.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

mm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

And I mean, that's how I found out about Charlie Kirk.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Oh wow. Yeah. Well, yeah, that stuff came out pretty

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. Yeah,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah, we heard right away. That was a wild, the boys were in school actually. You were probably getting outta school around the time it

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

yeah, I was outta school.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

yeah. You're a few out hours ahead and yeah. What a situation.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

So how old were you and when and how did you start getting into politics?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. So I think it started when I was like 11 which is, you know, young. But it was January 6th, I turned on the news. Because like we knew Biden was getting elected. I was into politics enough to know that we were getting a new president. And so I wanted to see the inauguration and all that. And then I get a text from my dad and he says, turn on the news. It's getting interesting. And I turned on the news and it got interesting. You could say it, it was interesting. And so, you know, I saw what happened at the Capitol and. I think that sort of motivated me to sort of dig deeper into a lot of things, figure out what really was happening there, what the different motivations were for different people. And then yeah, it just sort of spiraled from there.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

A lot of people criticize younger people that are interested in politics. What do you say to them?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I had say. They're not right, not wrong. I think at at 11 I shouldn't have been getting into

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah, it's young,

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

early for me. That was too early for me.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

so.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

but I think, you know, at, at a certain age you either are directly affected by politics or are just introduced to it whether you like it or not. And so you know, that's what happened to me. I was introduced to January 6th, and so that sort of artificially pushed me into politics. But then there are plenty of people who, as they grow, find out that they're gay or they're trans, and then politics directly affect them. And so I think if, if you are being directly affected, it's better to get into politics sooner rather than later.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. Mm. A a quick follow up which is related to social media. Sounds like you had a phone maybe when you were younger.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think it was an iPad, but yeah.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

an iPad. Okay. So, I wonder about kids getting introduced to politics through social media.'cause it does seem like it's happening younger and younger and like I'm an old guy, but I'm curious like where kids are getting introduced to it. Because I can go by what my kids say, but I'm curious like what your thoughts are in terms of is it just like somewhat inescapable because of the news and social media that it just comes up on people's feeds?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think the main way young people are introduced to politics is through usually YouTube less through like Instagram or Twitter or whatever. It's usually through YouTube and through people like Ben Shapiro, Andrew Tate, Charlie Kirk all those guys who make videos and. Sort of market them as more apolitical Jordan Peterson too. And so they start off apolitical and then slowly push it more and more and, you know, that's how you get into the alt-right pipeline. And so I know a bunch of people who ended up getting exposed to politics that way and it wasn't great, but you know.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

And do you think, do you think it happens left wise as well?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think less so. It definitely does happen, especially, I mentioned Hassan Piker. There's definitely sort of an alt left pipeline associated with people like Hassan Piker but in general left or sort of stick to their own community. They don't really branch out a lot.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Hmm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

They're more focused on infighting than anything

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Eh, interesting.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

we really don't like each other. Like it, it's crazy. We hate each other so

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I wanna, I maybe, we'll, we'll get into that. We'll have to get into that a little more.'cause I, I know your maybe political stance has changed a bit, so I wanna definitely hear more about that. But otherwise, so are there any political beliefs that you are concerned or really passionate about?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah, so I think some of the biggest things right now there's like the one big thing, which I'm sure we'll get to a little bit later when I go more in depth about my personal political beliefs. But in terms of sort of smaller stuff world conflicts is a big one. Especially around you know, the Middle East south America, Africa'cause there has been quite a bit of exploitation in the region and America hasn't been doing a good job at making up for that. And so I think that that's a big thing. Civil rights is another big thing for all sorts of groups. I'd say those are the main things.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

So in summary, you're concerned about how we engage in foreign conflicts and maybe like social justice on our shores.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I mean, not just how we engage in foreign conflicts, but how, I mean, you know, we, we can sort of get into this later, but you know, there has been a bunch of times where various countries in, Africa or South America have. Tried to establish their own democratic rulers, and America hasn't been so accepting of that, especially the CIA.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

yeah, yeah.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

And it's caused huge, huge issues especially around, you know, Guatemala, Chile, like those places are really not doing great because of what the US has done, and I think we need to make up for that.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. Mm. Well, foreign interference might be something that conservatives and you know, leftists actually believe in, but or agree on. So I'm curious,'cause typically new and also a lot of other people criticize us a lot, so I'm wondering what is something that you think most people get wrong about us or something that maybe you think that you agree with us on?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think I, I doubt, I agree with you on much, even on the foreign interference stuff. I think I disagree. I think we should actually do stuff internationally just in a very different way. But I think a lot of people assume that conservatives or anyone on the right is like stupid or evil.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

It's neither of those things. And it does sort of depend on the person. Some conservatives. Are just less engaged in politics and so tend to go with their gut reaction, which tends to be further right? And then some people just have a slightly different set of core beliefs and different focuses on what they think needs to happen. And so that leads to pretty different outcomes in policy belief.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Okay. Mm-hmm. I tend to think a lot of people want the same things in life, right? Mm-hmm. But there's different ways of getting there, and I think that's largely like where the disagreement comes in place is like in terms of policy and, and the path to get there. Right?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yep.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

So recently, and we've noticed this a lot, there's been a lot of young people like in Gen Z and Gen Alpha, who are starting to move toward more socialism and socialist ideas. So I am curious, what do you think is making people drive over to that, right? Why do you think people want that? And also do you think a lot of these kids and stuff know about historical events like and downfalls of civilizations and stuff that tried this? For example, Cuba and like I think Venezuela.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. So, you know, probably important to start off with. I'm a communist. Um, Y your face is just,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

When did this happen? Oh yeah. When did

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

happened over the summer. I told you my, my political

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Oh wow. Okay.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

you, I told you, I told you, I told

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

cool. Okay. Alright. I wanna, let's do it.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

yeah, yeah. Yeah.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Okay. Have you been talking to Pablo a lot? Is that what's happening here?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

No comment. No comment. We may have recorded something after the round tables ended, and you may have changed my mind. Who knows?

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Pablo, so, so people listening. We had a, an episode with Pablo a while back. Really nice young guy. Very different ideas, but I do think he's a super nice young guy and he's smart, so I'm just like you. So, okay, keep going. Tell us

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I think there a lot of young people are moving towards, I, I wouldn't actually say a lot of people are moving towards socialism or communism at the moment. I'd say a lot of people are moving towards more like social democracy. Like that's generally the safe liberal answer.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

And I think that is very different from socialism and communism and we can get into that too. But I think a lot of them are being pushed towards social democracy because of just how the pendulum is swinging. Like in general in history, you know, you have, history is like a pendulum, right? It shifts right? And it shifts left and right now, like it's been shifting right? For quite a while, since 2016, since Trump got elected arguably a little before that a little after Obama's second term kicked off. But right now it's shifting back left and I think. That's because a lot of people are reacting to the right lean of the country and reacting negatively.'cause people are usually never quite happy with the way things are. And so any sort of incumbent idea is going to be generally disagreed with. And so people are shifting left and for most people that means social democracy.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think I saw a poll that Gen Z is like. I thought I could be wrong, but like 62% were leaning more towards a socialist type of system. Social democracy, I think more as you put it.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I, I think I saw that there was gen Z Democrats

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I, I think, I think it was 62% were leaning towards socialism.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. That's a high percentage.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

That is a high percentage. and to, to anyone who is actually considering being a socialist, I recommend you read, go read Theory. It, it's a bit of a cliche unfortunately, and it's where 90% of left is in fighting happens. But go read a bunch of books about various thinkers and the things that they talked about, and then. Come back once you have a good understanding of what ideas have been put forward and what the biggest critiques are and things you need to be aware of.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

people would say socialism is a, is like the gateway drug or the pathway to communism. So how do you reconcile that if, if you believe in a, like a communist outcome for America, for example, do you see socialism as a path to get there?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. So I personally believe that in order to reach communism, we have to first go through socialism. And this is like the only place where I sort of diverge from anarchists. Anarchists say we need communism right now. No socialist transition state.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

revolution.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Most communists would also advocate for revolution. But I would say revolution into a socialist state. And then that socialist state can slowly deteriorate into a communist one. Or not deteriorate, but like dissolve.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Sure. Hmm. Yeah. Okay. Your boys are stunned. What? What? You got some questions? Well, no, I'm just, I'm thinking, I'm thinking about, you're thinking through, I'm trying to think about this.'cause wow, that's a big transition

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

It is a big transition.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

right from to a communist, right. What led you to become a communist? Did you read like all of the mark stuff or something?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. So I talked to Pablo first and that was big. I was definitely still opposed to socialism and communism. When I talked to him and he I gave every criticism I had and he was able to pretty easily counter them in a pretty convincing way. And so that made me look into it more. I started off on YouTube, not my proudest moment, but I started off on YouTube. I watched a lot of second thought, a lot of Hakeem. And then finally I read Marks, and I'm currently working through very, I got them over there. I'm working through a bunch of theory at the moment.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Okay. How far into Marks are you, have you read like the manifesto's? A little more digestible than Dust Cop.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah, I have not read capital yet. I, I'm, I'm not, I'm working my way up. You know, I'm starting with,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

You'll be, you'll be, you'll be like 23 by

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

going to, you know, Lenin and Mao now. I'll end up with Luxembourg and Capital. Eventually,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Interesting.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

eventually,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Eventually. So what were some key piggybacking on Will's question, but what were some key things that convinced you that this is a viable and maybe more productive future or path for America?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah, so I think a, a big part of it was reading the manifesto and un actually understanding the communist arguments. And then, you know, another big part of it was just talking to Pablo.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

The manifesto especially talks about a lot of issues that you don't quite realize are issues and you don't realize there are alternatives to,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

And then you realize actually there are alternatives to it. And so that's generally where I. Started and I've sort of developed from there.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. Have you also looked at people, for example, that have. Very contrary views to communism, whether it's James, Lindsay, or, you know, there's a lot of'em out there, but have you looked at some of theirs to see the kind of top critiques?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah, so I generally try to get a pretty wide number of arguments for various things. And so like I, I do end up watching a lot of socialist content, but I also end up watching a lot of anarcho capitalist content like classical conservative content and stuff like that. And so I, I

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

You watch our content, you watch our content,

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I do watch your content. I do watch your content. That's true.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

ah, yes,

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I watch your content. It's true.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Go. I know. That's good. That's good. I think we try to do the same with getting other views I think that is healthy, so that's good to hear. I just wanna ask something else. Do you like also think there's a lot of examples now that communism has failed in like a bunch of areas, for example, the Soviet Union and stuff. So do you also think that like it was just done wrong in that you guys can somehow do it right.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think big, there, there are a lot of factors that led to previous socialist experiments failing. I will say Cuba's still going and they're doing, eh, all right at the moment. They're struggling, but they're staying afloat. I'm proud of them for that. Otherwise they most socialist countries have all gone under. And there are a bunch of reasons for that. I blame Stalin and by extension, Lenin, and there's a bunch of things that he did that I disagree, I mean. I disagree with stone, but there's a bunch of other things that he did that ended up really damaging other socialist countries and damaging their growth. One of the things was going into direct competition with the us. I think that was a bad idea. Right. You're not trying to be a capitalist country, so don't go compete with a capitalist country. Focus on your own country, get it built up, and then build up all the other countries. Alright? But don't, don't go competing, right? That's just a bad idea. And then what Al also, what ended up happening, all the other socialist countries ended up needing to embrace their form of socialism called Marxism Leninism.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

'cause you know, that's how they would get aid and weapons from the Soviet Union. And so that meant like a, a lot of countries ended up joining this very specific style of socialism. Marxism Leninism. A lot of people just call it Stalinism, right? Because that's sort of what it's Stalinism. And I disagree with Stalinism generally. I fall a little more. Libertarian than Stalinism generally is, but

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

it mainly because of his sort of authoritarian rule

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think that, you know, that's sort of part of it. I think that in and of itself isn't why I sort of condemn Marxism Leninism.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think it's more used as a way to make excuses for existing socialist countries as opposed to actually building up new ones, which I think in ideology should be used to actually build up new countries, not just make excuses for the old ones.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

And then I think one of the biggest things is Lenin. Lenin had this idea and he wasn't totally wrong. That socialist revolutions would start in the third world.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

He, he was correct there. They did. But issue is if you start in the third world, then the first world comes and topples your government. So that's generally where I disagree with Lenin. One of the few places, actually, I think he was pretty smart, but you can't start the revolution in the third world.'cause then it's just gonna get trampled by. The first world imperialists, and so I think you do have to start probably in America, unfortunately, which isn't super easy at the moment, but we'll get there.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. Well, maybe I'm, I will say I'm more familiar with. Some of the let's say theory on Marxist ideologies than the boys are. Like I've read Yeah, I have not read it yet. I've read a bit. I've read a bit of this, but and I'm not looking to debate with you about it. I just, but I am curious in terms of I. When you look at the US for example, it's still very much a free market. There are things ebb and flows and so forth. But do, is it realistic? Like you were just kind of mentioning it's gonna be difficult here to change so how do you see that manifesting? Do you think it requires like a revolution, for example, or something different?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

So it, it will require a revolution. I don't think it's gonna, I, I mentioned the pendulum earlier. It's not gonna happen on this swing to the left. Things aren't really dire enough at the moment in America for people to try to search for different answers. Lennon also said this, and this is why he thought revolution had to start in the third world because people in, like America and Western Europe, they kinda have it pretty good. Like not, not great. They, there's still the underlying issues with capitalism, but like they've got unions and they have various concessions that the sort of ruling class has made. And so it's not super likely that then they're going to complain all that much, or at the very least go looking for different answers. It is sort of a tough situation, but I think with time we can get there.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Okay. Okay. Well, the boys and I were talking about Mom Donny in New York earlier. Oh yeah. So what are your thoughts about his rise?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think it is good that people are open to a social Democrat running, but a mayor doesn't actually have that much power. I don't think he's gonna be able to do all of that. If, if he, if he does, that'd be amazing. Like I, that'd be really great. It'd better a lot of people's lives, but America doesn't actually have that much power.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

And so it's unlikely that too much is gonna happen. It is great that he is trying

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

That shows a lot like how people are feeling in New York, I guess.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. So I, I find that interesting. Yeah. To be honest, I wasn't, I wasn't anticipating this Jonah when, when you came on, I thought, yeah, you

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

He thought I was still a liberal. That's not bad. I didn't realize you didn't know I was a communist.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

is okay, this is a good twist. We're like. If I put myself in the shoes of people that are promoting communist ideologies, I, I still have, would have a hard time reconciling the past. It, it seems that everywhere it's tried, it's failed. It's also highly susceptible to authoritarian rule because it, you, you're breaking down systems, for example. Then somebody comes in like a Stalin and then they, and they. Kind of take power and then they don't wanna let it go. And in a true communist, I mean, if you're talking about true communism sort of utopia, it's a stateless classless system. And so there's no authority, but when people get that authority, they don't wanna let it go. Right? And so you, we saw this with a lot of those old leaders, and maybe that's why these regimes fail. This may one of a number of things, if I put myself in your shoes, I think how do we reconcile all of these failures and, and avoid that in a future world, right?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah, so I think this is definitely one of the larger questions on the left. And this is sort of why there are a lot of Marxist Leonards again, because like it. Marxism Leninism is sort of used to try to legitimize these former regimes. I think the best thing we can do is to look at what went wrong, the various things that did go wrong look at what was good.'cause there were quite a few good things with a lot of these countries. And then go forward trying to replicate the good and prevent the bad. And so in terms of authoritarianism. I think a, a lot of these countries went at it from an angle of top down government. I think that's sort of the wrong way of going about it. I think bottom up government is a lot better. And so, you know, definitely some form of democracy, be that within one party or with no parties. And then not having just one leader. And I think this is sort of a weird thing that a lot of countries do. They only have one leader Ask weird. Get, get a bunch of'em, get a council, get, get more than one. The,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

get Get a Jedi council.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

yeah, get the Jedi council. Sure. Get ideas going. All right. You don't want just one guy in charge.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Well. More localization. That seems to make sense. I think that's something even conservatives would buy into is in terms of getting your government or your rules of the road established more locally is gonna be more beneficial to people. One of the other things that I curious about is there are. Communities in, in the us I think there's a couple in Virginia, maybe upstate New Hampshire, Texas, that live a communist lifestyle. And so kind of proving out the model and is there a universe where that starts to take hold more from a grassroots foundation where these communities living?'cause technically you could live as a communist in a capitalist society, but not maybe the other way around. So. Is there a world where that spreads and takes more hold? What do you, what do you

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think most likely we're gonna have something similar to like the Black Panther Party. I think some sort of similar group is going to come in and actually start helping people in cities. And doing so from a communist lens, and then that's gonna sort of shift the conversation and then a revolution will form from there. I think it's unlikely that these small communes are going to find a way to cause a revolution. It'd be cool if they did alright. More power to them, but it's not likely.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

We could probably spend hours, hours talking about. Capitalism, communism, the path forward, et cetera. So maybe we'll put a pin in it, but just like the, just like the podcast of Pablo went like four hours just talking about communism. All right. But I have a question about conservatives and all that. So do you have any policy that you actually agree with us on it?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Nothing big.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Oh.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I can't, I can't think of anything.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Come on, Jonah. Come on. Just has to be one thing that we agree on. This is something, you gotta be something, a morsel.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I can't, I can't, I can't think of anything. I mean, I

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

How about secure borders are no

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

No, no,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

aside secure borders? No.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Well, okay. Secure, secure ish to an extent. Sure. We could agree that. At the moment in America, we need some kind of border.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Hmm. Okay.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. Middle ground.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

We agree with that? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Nice. We found something. There we go. Okay.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

go. World

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Wait, wait, wait. There's gotta be, how about if you're going towards communists, so less government, smaller government.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Eventually.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

ah, well,

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Eventually, yeah.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Okay. at that. Boom. A little bit of common ground there. Hmm. A little, yeah. So now I can move on from that. So right now there is currently a lot of toxicity and divisiveness in politics. So I am curious, how do you think young people might be able to find like more productive outcomes?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think people need to go at it from a. In politics right now, when people have conversations, they go at those conversations trying to win. don't win a conversation, right? That's that's not how it works. You shouldn't do that. And I think people need to have conversations as conversations, exchange ideas think critically and don't be mean. I.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. I, I like that though. Sounds good. Sounds good. But boy, this doesn't seem to be happening, does it? It's, it's getting, it's almost like it's getting worse. Both sides are just so toxic and critical of the other. What do you think of this new series that we're gonna put out? Where we're trying to find the humanity is we're gonna, we might retitle it, project Humanity, Jonas. Oh yeah. Where we're gonna go look at people we would normally not agree with and try to find something that we either agree with or humanity in what they do.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I mean, I think that's a good idea. I, when I saw that I was. Surprised, pleasantly surprised that you were doing that. I know, I, you've, you've mentioned you've been wanting to sort of lean away from the, like super like radical and inflammatory stuff. And so I think this is actually a really good way of doing that. I think more people should try to do that.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Okay, because that's another thing we agree on then. Okay. Yeah.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Another thing we agree

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

this, all this good stuff. Nice. Well, I do hope it takes on, but I don't have a lot of optimism. Just knowing how the algorithms and social media and the internet works, it's really driven largely on hate and conflict versus. Common ground and humanity, which is really unfortunate. Because I do think like people, as I said earlier, want similar stuff. We just have different ideas on how to get there.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

In general, yes. I think trying to reach across the aisle and, just trying to understand the other side is important.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

You've seen our page. It's pretty crazy, right? We don't totally know what to make of it sometimes, so. what we notice too is a lot of the people leaving the most sort of vile comments because there are people that are engaged like civilly and. decent arguments and points, and you generally are one of those. I appreciate that. The, the other thing that we see though is like really vile comments and they're mostly young people. They're like high school kids. And so it makes me wonder like what kind of, you know, what kind of universe is, is being spun out

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

So I, maybe I have a bit of an outside perspective. There are a couple of actually somewhat popular memes around you guys. Like the. This is my flag video. I've seen, I've, I've seen so many reels about that. It's crazy. And so many people watch you guys. That's the other thing, like I, you know, I had that one reel I was in that got a bunch of views. I had three different people come up to me at school and be like, Hey, conservative podcast guy. And I was like, yeah, that, yep. Mm-hmm.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. That was me.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm. My English teacher found it. It was

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

right? Really?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

teacher found it. It

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

That got millions of views. Yeah. People loved you on that one. Yeah, that was a good, I mean, it was a good clip and you got millions of views. It was a popular one. We've had some hit pieces done on us by pretty big YouTubers,

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

people with lots of followers. I'm, so, I guess we're, I guess we're either aggravating or we're coming up on their feeds and making an impact. Huh? One of them literally came back with another video. Yeah.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah, he came back. He came back. Saji,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

an

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

and then, yeah. Yeah. He reacted to your reaction.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. And we are thinking of Reactioning reacting to his reaction. Of our reaction of him.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I mean, why not? Why not?

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Yeah. Reaction. Exponential.

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Yeah,

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

not? Yeah. Reaction number 10. Well, okay, we digress what do you think that me and Max as conservative kids can do better?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

I think try to think critically, like that's really the biggest thing. Get information from as many different perspectives as possible. Read from as many perspectives as possible and just try to actually understand the oppositions views and how they get to those conclusions.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, that's good advice. One of the reasons we're talking to you today. Right. So that's all, that's all good. So how about this, let's wrap up the podcast. This was super interesting. Maybe we'll do a follow up on communism. We'll have a, maybe we'll have a panel. This, this could be, yeah. Interesting. Pop you, Pablo, we got you. We

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

get Pablo up here. Yeah, man.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

We could bring a full crew and go deeper on that because I do think a lot of people are curious about where are we headed, as a country in the next a hundred years. Any final thoughts or advice for young people getting into politics or interested in politics? What would you tell'em?

JONAH_WARD-Jonah_Ward-webcam-00h_00m_00s_445ms-StreamYard:

Two things. One. Figure out what you believe in terms of ethics and morality before you decide on any political opinion. If you're religious, it's pretty easy, right? But if you're not religious, try to hear ideas from different moral systems and figure out which one. Resonates the most with you, and then base your ideas on that. Don't try to shape your morality around your political views'cause it doesn't really work that well. So that's one thing. The other thing yelling at people on Reddit isn't gonna change anything. Okay. That. It's not gonna do anything. Okay. Like I'm, I'm sorry. You go out and organize. Okay? I don't care what side of the political compass you're on. Go out and organize, okay? Go out to whatever your local organization is that you agree with and actually start doing stuff. Politics isn't just arguing with people online, right? That can be part of it, but. You can't say you identify with an ideology if you don't act on it and have it influence the way you live.

JONAH_WARD-GSD-webcam-00h_00m_00s_315ms-StreamYard:

This was a lot of fun. Thanks for coming on our podcast. It is really important for us to talk to people who have different views. You're a genuine, sharp, young guy and so it was great to see you again. We wish you the best of luck at school and your career and wherever you're going, but I'm sure we'll stay in touch. Thank you. Yep. Thank you for coming on.