{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.24,"endTime":0.82,"body":"Foreign"},{"startTime":4.24,"endTime":7.928,"body":"welcome back to the Basic Bee Podcast. I am thrilled to"},{"startTime":7.984,"endTime":11.784,"body":"have you here and today I'm joined by Penn Cole. We're going to be talking"},{"startTime":11.832,"endTime":15.592,"body":"all about marketing strategies for authors and that even includes some of"},{"startTime":15.616,"endTime":19.24,"body":"her controversial opinions. Stay tuned for those. So in case you"},{"startTime":19.28,"endTime":23.128,"body":"don't know this, I'm a pretty avid reader. As a kid, you wouldn't"},{"startTime":23.144,"endTime":26.472,"body":"catch me without a book. And to this day, you still won't. Even right now,"},{"startTime":26.496,"endTime":30.276,"body":"I think I'm reading like two or three at a time these days. I'm"},{"startTime":30.308,"endTime":33.972,"body":"reading lots of what's called Romantasy books and my favorite"},{"startTime":34.036,"endTime":37.62,"body":"author is Penn for a number of reasons. Her writing is"},{"startTime":37.66,"endTime":41.396,"body":"captivating, the characters burrow their way into your heart and they're relatable"},{"startTime":41.428,"endTime":45.124,"body":"to boot. And if when you interact with Penn"},{"startTime":45.172,"endTime":48.74,"body":"online, she's just such a kind human and you'll see what I mean."},{"startTime":48.86,"endTime":52.404,"body":"Before I bring her on, let me introduce you to her. Penn Cole is the"},{"startTime":52.412,"endTime":56.164,"body":"New York Times and USA Today best selling Romantasy author of Spark of"},{"startTime":56.172,"endTime":59.994,"body":"the Everflame. Her debut series, the Kindred's Curse Saga, has sold"},{"startTime":60.042,"endTime":63.642,"body":"over 1 million copies and is being translated into more than a"},{"startTime":63.666,"endTime":67.482,"body":"dozen languages. Before pursuing her lifelong dream of becoming"},{"startTime":67.546,"endTime":71.098,"body":"an author, Pennn had prior careers as an attorney and a small business"},{"startTime":71.154,"endTime":74.922,"body":"owner. While she's a Texas girl born and bred, she currently lives"},{"startTime":74.946,"endTime":78.73,"body":"in France with her husband and their cat, Cardboard, where she"},{"startTime":78.77,"endTime":82.17,"body":"usually can be found eating too many pastries and trolling her readers on"},{"startTime":82.21,"endTime":85.996,"body":"discord. Hi. Hi Finn. I'm so excited to get to chat with you today. Mostly"},{"startTime":86.028,"endTime":89.596,"body":"about book marketing, which I don't think is something you get to talk a whole"},{"startTime":89.628,"endTime":93.452,"body":"lot about these days. No, it's not. And it's one of my favorite topics. So"},{"startTime":93.476,"endTime":97.292,"body":"I'm super excited to be here. I love hearing that. So I'm going to start"},{"startTime":97.316,"endTime":100.396,"body":"us off with a question that I didn't prep before and I asked"},{"startTime":100.548,"endTime":104.364,"body":"everyone, so this is great because we get your genuine reaction,"},{"startTime":104.412,"endTime":107.964,"body":"but there's no wrong answers. Just whatever answer you have is perfect."},{"startTime":108.092,"endTime":111.56,"body":"So the question is, which do you believe is the most important for"},{"startTime":111.6,"endTime":115.16,"body":"sales? Social proof, SEO or storytelling?"},{"startTime":115.32,"endTime":119.048,"body":"Social proof. Say a little more. So I have"},{"startTime":119.104,"endTime":122.872,"body":"probably some controversial opinions on marketing, which I'm sure we'll get into, but"},{"startTime":122.896,"endTime":126.664,"body":"I think there's no marketing like reader word of mouth. I"},{"startTime":126.672,"endTime":130.056,"body":"think it all begins with the book. And if you can write a book that"},{"startTime":130.128,"endTime":133.976,"body":"makes people, when they turn the last page and they close it"},{"startTime":134.128,"endTime":137.784,"body":"and they need to talk to people about it, they need to tell their friends"},{"startTime":137.872,"endTime":140.682,"body":"to get, you know, all the people in their life to read it so they"},{"startTime":140.706,"endTime":144.314,"body":"have somebody to discuss it with. They want to get online and search information"},{"startTime":144.402,"endTime":148.202,"body":"about it or seek out the author, join reader groups. You know, if you"},{"startTime":148.226,"endTime":151.226,"body":"can write a book that inspires people to be that"},{"startTime":151.298,"endTime":155.002,"body":"invested in the book and having other"},{"startTime":155.026,"endTime":158.218,"body":"people like it, you can't buy that kind of"},{"startTime":158.354,"endTime":161.802,"body":"marketing. Return on investment. It's the most powerful thing in the"},{"startTime":161.826,"endTime":165.61,"body":"world. I think in most cases, any book that becomes"},{"startTime":165.69,"endTime":169.504,"body":"mega successful, that's what drives it. So the other stuff can be"},{"startTime":169.512,"endTime":172.864,"body":"helpful for sure. But I just think that's at the core of a true"},{"startTime":172.912,"endTime":176.272,"body":"success. I could not agree more. And I'm even as you're saying that, I'm like,"},{"startTime":176.296,"endTime":179.888,"body":"yep, I've done that. I've done that. I've told everyone in my life about"},{"startTime":179.944,"endTime":183.36,"body":"five times that they need to read the Kindred's Curse saga. So yeah, can"},{"startTime":183.4,"endTime":187.248,"body":"relate. That's how I even heard about the series was there's"},{"startTime":187.264,"endTime":190.848,"body":"a book influencer who was sharing, you know, top recommendations about different"},{"startTime":190.904,"endTime":194.46,"body":"things and she's going to be on the podcast too. Jamie Johnson and"},{"startTime":194.5,"endTime":198.3,"body":"oh wonderful. Yeah, so that's just proof that that"},{"startTime":198.34,"endTime":202.156,"body":"works, right? All right, so for those of us my hand is raised who"},{"startTime":202.228,"endTime":205.804,"body":"don't know your joeurney from indie author to traditionally"},{"startTime":205.852,"endTime":209.692,"body":"publish, would you share what that looked like? Yeah, I had a"},{"startTime":209.716,"endTime":213.292,"body":"really unconventional path to where I am now. I would say"},{"startTime":213.396,"endTime":217.228,"body":"I started as a self published author. I self"},{"startTime":217.244,"endTime":220.812,"body":"published my first book, Spark of the Everflame, June 1st of"},{"startTime":220.836,"endTime":224.46,"body":"2023. I rapid released my series. So I had"},{"startTime":224.5,"endTime":227.976,"body":"pre written the first three books, my series before I ever published."},{"startTime":228.168,"endTime":231.88,"body":"And I published book one on June 1st. I published book two about six weeks"},{"startTime":231.92,"endTime":235.64,"body":"later and then I published book three about two months after that. So"},{"startTime":235.68,"endTime":239.384,"body":"all three books were out in just the span of a few months. And at"},{"startTime":239.392,"endTime":242.792,"body":"the time that I published, when I say I had no resources, I mean I"},{"startTime":242.816,"endTime":246.552,"body":"had no resources. I had like maybe 200 followers"},{"startTime":246.616,"endTime":250.456,"body":"at most on Instagram and a lot of them came from engagement groups,"},{"startTime":250.488,"endTime":254.316,"body":"which I know is very controversial and I don't necessarily recommend them, but"},{"startTime":254.388,"endTime":257.964,"body":"that's literally the only place I could get followers. Cause I was brand new,"},{"startTime":258.132,"endTime":261.5,"body":"I had no money for marketing, I could not afford to do"},{"startTime":261.54,"endTime":265.388,"body":"ads. I was just begging people one at a time to read"},{"startTime":265.444,"endTime":269.052,"body":"my book. Truly getting like readers one by one by"},{"startTime":269.076,"endTime":272.524,"body":"one. And it just kind of,"},{"startTime":272.692,"endTime":276.492,"body":"you know, no pun intended, caught fire a little bit and it started to"},{"startTime":276.516,"endTime":280.092,"body":"grow and grow and grow. And then mid"},{"startTime":280.196,"endTime":283.532,"body":"last year, Atria, which is an imprint of Simon and"},{"startTime":283.556,"endTime":287.352,"body":"Schuster, reached out to me and they were interested in acquiring the"},{"startTime":287.376,"endTime":290.888,"body":"print rights to the series and republishing them"},{"startTime":291.024,"endTime":294.072,"body":"in a new kind of upgraded, traditionally published"},{"startTime":294.136,"endTime":297.752,"body":"format. So that was a dream come true for sure. I was so"},{"startTime":297.776,"endTime":301.4,"body":"excited about that. And the books are now in the process of re"},{"startTime":301.44,"endTime":305.18,"body":"releasing. So Spark just re released in October,"},{"startTime":305.84,"endTime":309.304,"body":"Glow re released in December, and Heat re releases"},{"startTime":309.432,"endTime":313.076,"body":"in March. I consider myself still indie"},{"startTime":313.188,"endTime":316.884,"body":"because my ebooks are indie, but my print books are trad. So"},{"startTime":316.892,"endTime":320.66,"body":"I have a little bit of a foot in both worlds. I love that. So"},{"startTime":320.7,"endTime":324.036,"body":"that's really going to give some interesting context for the conversation today."},{"startTime":324.188,"endTime":327.972,"body":"Okay, so let's start with indie and stick with that"},{"startTime":327.996,"endTime":331.812,"body":"for a little bit. So what were some of the marketing activities that worked"},{"startTime":331.876,"endTime":335.476,"body":"best when you were first a self published author?"},{"startTime":335.628,"endTime":339.476,"body":"Oh gosh, there was so much. I was"},{"startTime":339.548,"endTime":343.3,"body":"very privileged that, well, I guess it's up to"},{"startTime":343.34,"endTime":346.356,"body":"each person to decide whether this is a privilege or not. But I was unemployed"},{"startTime":346.388,"endTime":349.988,"body":"at the time. Not by choice, but I had just"},{"startTime":350.044,"endTime":353.892,"body":"moved. I'm American, I'm from Texas. And my husband and I"},{"startTime":353.916,"endTime":357.732,"body":"had just moved to France in the middle of the pandemic. And I was"},{"startTime":357.756,"endTime":360.804,"body":"trying to get a job here in France and I just was not finding anything."},{"startTime":360.852,"endTime":364.452,"body":"Nobody was hiring. And so I had no money. I"},{"startTime":364.476,"endTime":368.258,"body":"had all this time to myself. I've always"},{"startTime":368.314,"endTime":372.162,"body":"wanted to write books. That's what my undergraduate degree was in is creative writing."},{"startTime":372.306,"endTime":374.674,"body":"So it was always something I wanted to do, but I had put off for"},{"startTime":374.682,"endTime":378.034,"body":"a long time. And so I said, okay, I'm gonna give this a real shot."},{"startTime":378.082,"endTime":381.618,"body":"Cause I literally have nothing else to do right now. And so I'm"},{"startTime":381.634,"endTime":384.53,"body":"gonna throw myself into this at"},{"startTime":384.57,"endTime":388.322,"body":"150% and do everything I possibly can."},{"startTime":388.506,"endTime":392.098,"body":"When I tell you I spent every hour of every day either writing"},{"startTime":392.194,"endTime":395.93,"body":"or preparing a marketing plan or putting that marketing plan"},{"startTime":395.97,"endTime":399.53,"body":"into effect. I just did everything I could"},{"startTime":399.57,"endTime":403.21,"body":"possibly think of that didn't cost a lot of money. So I got on social"},{"startTime":403.25,"endTime":406.81,"body":"media. I was posting videos on TikTok. I was posting stuff on Instagram,"},{"startTime":406.97,"endTime":410.442,"body":"posting on Twitter. I was"},{"startTime":410.626,"endTime":414.314,"body":"posting in reader groups, on Facebook, in arc"},{"startTime":414.362,"endTime":417.882,"body":"groups, trying to get people to sign up to arc read my"},{"startTime":417.906,"endTime":421.568,"body":"book. I signed up for a lot of the arc platforms like"},{"startTime":421.674,"endTime":425.028,"body":"Book Sirens, booksprout. I got an other"},{"startTime":425.084,"endTime":428.58,"body":"author's discourse with their permission, and asked if I could"},{"startTime":428.7,"endTime":432.292,"body":"mention my book to their readers. And so I was saying, hey, if you like"},{"startTime":432.316,"endTime":435.844,"body":"this book, I think you might like mine. I mean, everything"},{"startTime":436.012,"endTime":439.684,"body":"I could possibly think of. The only Thing I didn't really do is advertising"},{"startTime":439.732,"endTime":442.708,"body":"because I couldn't afford it. I also did some book"},{"startTime":442.764,"endTime":446.452,"body":"tours with a few companies which are not the"},{"startTime":446.476,"endTime":450.302,"body":"tour that most people would think of where you're literally traveling from city to city."},{"startTime":450.436,"endTime":454.17,"body":"It's a social media book tour. So these groups have a"},{"startTime":454.21,"endTime":457.45,"body":"pool of influencers that are"},{"startTime":457.49,"endTime":461.274,"body":"hosts and they will email their host and say, hey, we have"},{"startTime":461.282,"endTime":465.13,"body":"this book. If it sounds interesting, let us know, we'll send you a copy. And"},{"startTime":465.17,"endTime":468.922,"body":"then during your quote unquote book tour, which is usually about"},{"startTime":468.946,"endTime":472.57,"body":"a week, all the hosts in that pool who read your book will post"},{"startTime":472.61,"endTime":475.93,"body":"about it. So it's kind of a group push"},{"startTime":476.09,"endTime":479.786,"body":"to mention your book all at the same time to hopefully get"},{"startTime":479.858,"endTime":483.654,"body":"some kind of like virality moment going. So"},{"startTime":483.662,"endTime":487.462,"body":"I did a few of those. I mean, just everything I could think of"},{"startTime":487.566,"endTime":491.206,"body":"really, it was a lot of throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks."},{"startTime":491.318,"endTime":494.998,"body":"Yeah, there's something to be said about being scrappy. And that's one reason I really"},{"startTime":495.054,"endTime":498.854,"body":"love organic marketing, is because the word of mouth, clearly"},{"startTime":498.902,"endTime":502.582,"body":"it works. Like you just released those in 2023. We're at"},{"startTime":502.606,"endTime":506.31,"body":"the beginning of 2025 talking about this. Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":506.39,"endTime":510.118,"body":"Like it's worked quickly. It did work and you know, it's"},{"startTime":510.134,"endTime":513.43,"body":"hard to say which of them worked the best. I think they"},{"startTime":513.47,"endTime":517.089,"body":"each different purposes. And also when it comes"},{"startTime":517.129,"endTime":520.401,"body":"to return on investment with marketing, sometimes it is a long game"},{"startTime":520.505,"endTime":524.097,"body":"because a lot of it, especially at the beginning, if you write in"},{"startTime":524.153,"endTime":527.841,"body":"series, when you're releasing a first book, a lot of people don't want to"},{"startTime":527.865,"endTime":530.801,"body":"give a chance to a first book. They want to wait until more of the"},{"startTime":530.825,"endTime":534.561,"body":"series is out or until the series is completed so that they can binge it."},{"startTime":534.745,"endTime":538.513,"body":"So a lot of what you're doing in those early days as a series writer"},{"startTime":538.561,"endTime":542.161,"body":"is just cover recognition. It's just trying to get your cover out there as many"},{"startTime":542.185,"endTime":546.012,"body":"times as possible so that people see it over and over and over and"},{"startTime":546.036,"endTime":549.82,"body":"over again and eventually they have to stop ignoring it because they've seen"},{"startTime":549.86,"endTime":553.532,"body":"it so much and they have to either buy the first book or, you know,"},{"startTime":553.556,"endTime":556.2,"body":"at least like put it in their library or something."},{"startTime":556.9,"endTime":560.636,"body":"So I think a lot of what I did back then, maybe I didn't"},{"startTime":560.668,"endTime":564.396,"body":"see an immediate jump in sales for it, but it really"},{"startTime":564.468,"endTime":568.172,"body":"laid the foundation for when my second book came out and especially when"},{"startTime":568.196,"endTime":571.944,"body":"my third book came out. And then I could start marketing it as binge"},{"startTime":571.992,"endTime":575.736,"body":"this series. There's three books out that is really"},{"startTime":575.808,"endTime":579.608,"body":"when stuff started to happen because they had Been hearing about my book"},{"startTime":579.664,"endTime":583.192,"body":"for months, and now I was telling them, okay, it's time to binge it. And"},{"startTime":583.216,"endTime":586.824,"body":"they were like, okay, let's do this. All right, fine, I'll do it."},{"startTime":586.912,"endTime":590.696,"body":"You bring up a really good point, though, with the cover art. Because,"},{"startTime":590.848,"endTime":593.752,"body":"I mean, as much as it is a saying to not judge a book by"},{"startTime":593.776,"endTime":597.36,"body":"its cover, we all do! And there is something, I think to be"},{"startTime":597.4,"endTime":601.072,"body":"said for if you're working with a shoestring budget, put your money"},{"startTime":601.176,"endTime":604.0,"body":"toward your cover. And I know that's one thing that my boyfriend talks about with"},{"startTime":604.04,"endTime":607.824,"body":"his nonfiction authors is that's gonna be a huge benefit"},{"startTime":607.872,"endTime":611.544,"body":"to you. Do you agree with that, or, like. What's your take on A thousand"},{"startTime":611.544,"endTime":615.36,"body":"percent! As I mentioned, I think everything starts with a book, and if"},{"startTime":615.4,"endTime":617.936,"body":"the book isn't good, no matter how much marketing you do, it's not gonna take"},{"startTime":617.968,"endTime":621.488,"body":"off. But setting aside the actual book itself,"},{"startTime":621.544,"endTime":625.168,"body":"I think the number one most important thing an author does is"},{"startTime":625.224,"endTime":628.992,"body":"their cover. First of all, that's 90% of whether a person"},{"startTime":629.016,"endTime":632.864,"body":"picks up a book is. Does the cover look interesting? So that's the"},{"startTime":632.912,"endTime":636.624,"body":"largest hurdle you have to overcome. And then from"},{"startTime":636.712,"endTime":640.528,"body":"there, you know, they'll read your blurb or maybe go look at reviews and other"},{"startTime":640.584,"endTime":644.4,"body":"things, and that's what kind of seals the deal or not. But that"},{"startTime":644.52,"endTime":648.24,"body":"cover is really what makes such an impact in whether"},{"startTime":648.28,"endTime":651.952,"body":"people pick it up and take a look further. So if"},{"startTime":651.976,"endTime":655.712,"body":"it's not there, and especially if the cover isn't communicating the things you want it"},{"startTime":655.736,"endTime":659.52,"body":"to communicate, like the right genre, the right audience, the general"},{"startTime":659.56,"endTime":663.36,"body":"vibes. I've seen books that I know were good books."},{"startTime":663.4,"endTime":667.152,"body":"They were phenomenal. They had good reviews. People loved them. But the covers"},{"startTime":667.176,"endTime":670.992,"body":"were awful. And a lot of times, because the covers made them"},{"startTime":671.016,"endTime":674.592,"body":"look like something that they weren't, you know, like the wrong genre or whatever."},{"startTime":674.616,"endTime":677.952,"body":"And those authors were just spinning their wheels,"},{"startTime":677.976,"endTime":681.6,"body":"you know, trying so hard to get traction, and they couldn't. And"},{"startTime":681.76,"endTime":685.32,"body":"then they changed their cover, and it's like instant. It takes"},{"startTime":685.36,"endTime":689.032,"body":"off. So, yeah, I think my cover was a huge part of my initial"},{"startTime":689.056,"endTime":692.776,"body":"success, for sure. Yeah, your covers are gorgeous. And the cool"},{"startTime":692.808,"endTime":696.456,"body":"thing, even with that, is that there's a through line. You can see how similar"},{"startTime":696.528,"endTime":700.344,"body":"they are, too, which I'm sure was all thought out. It was. It"},{"startTime":700.352,"endTime":703.784,"body":"was very intentional. And I think on your point about spending money on the"},{"startTime":703.792,"endTime":707.608,"body":"covers, my covers cost me 200 bucks each. I don't think you have"},{"startTime":707.664,"endTime":711.48,"body":"to necessarily spend a ton of money, but what"},{"startTime":711.52,"endTime":715.274,"body":"you do have to do is either Your designer or"},{"startTime":715.362,"endTime":719.114,"body":"you need to really understand the genre"},{"startTime":719.162,"endTime":722.842,"body":"that you're writing in and the market and what covers typically"},{"startTime":722.906,"endTime":726.73,"body":"look like in that genre. And you've got to be able to"},{"startTime":726.77,"endTime":730.602,"body":"design a cover that, like I said, communicates that genre really clearly"},{"startTime":730.666,"endTime":734.11,"body":"and communicates whether it's a kid's book, an adult's book, whatever,"},{"startTime":734.61,"endTime":737.674,"body":"and who the intended audience is. So for me, I put a woman on the"},{"startTime":737.682,"endTime":741.082,"body":"cover because I wanted to very clearly communicate. This is a woman story."},{"startTime":741.186,"endTime":744.972,"body":"It's, you know, driven by women and that that's my primary"},{"startTime":745.036,"endTime":748.812,"body":"audience. And so it has to kind of check all of"},{"startTime":748.836,"endTime":752.62,"body":"those boxes. And it also has to stand out and not get"},{"startTime":752.66,"endTime":756.412,"body":"lost in a crowd of similar looking covers. And it's really hard to do both"},{"startTime":756.436,"endTime":760.236,"body":"of those things well. So I really don't think it's necessarily"},{"startTime":760.268,"endTime":763.692,"body":"about having the highest budget because a lot of expensive designers"},{"startTime":763.756,"endTime":767.32,"body":"don't necessarily know every genre that well."},{"startTime":767.65,"endTime":771.45,"body":"But it's about either you or your designer have to have"},{"startTime":771.49,"endTime":775.29,"body":"that knowledge of the industry so that you can look at a cover and say,"},{"startTime":775.33,"endTime":777.882,"body":"yes, this is gonna do what I want it to do, or no, it isn't."},{"startTime":778.026,"endTime":781.802,"body":"Yeah, I love that you, one, were willing to share that and two, brought that"},{"startTime":781.826,"endTime":785.45,"body":"point home because it doesn't have to be a huge budget. And that's not even"},{"startTime":785.49,"endTime":788.682,"body":"what I was trying to imply. But that needs to be a focus. And you"},{"startTime":788.706,"endTime":792.346,"body":"bring up a good point as well of just being so clear"},{"startTime":792.498,"endTime":796.186,"body":"on your audience, on the message on the genre, especially"},{"startTime":796.258,"endTime":799.978,"body":"when it's a fiction book. Like. Right. If you're not communicating that you're"},{"startTime":799.994,"endTime":803.034,"body":"right, the right reader is going to go right by that. Definitely. And I mean,"},{"startTime":803.042,"endTime":806.602,"body":"I agree it's worth investing in. If you find a designer who, you know is"},{"startTime":806.626,"endTime":809.546,"body":"going to be able to do that, like put your money there, for sure you'll"},{"startTime":809.578,"endTime":813.21,"body":"get a return on investment if they do it right. Yeah. But if you're"},{"startTime":813.29,"endTime":817.082,"body":"sitting at home and you're thinking, I just don't have the money for it, that"},{"startTime":817.106,"endTime":820.346,"body":"doesn't shut everything down. There are, you know, alternatives"},{"startTime":820.458,"endTime":824.218,"body":"available, for sure. Okay, I want to talk about another tool"},{"startTime":824.274,"endTime":827.786,"body":"that we have at our disposal, which is, I'm guessing, especially being self"},{"startTime":827.818,"endTime":831.43,"body":"published, was Amazon a part of how you released at least some"},{"startTime":831.47,"endTime":834.758,"body":"versions of your book? Oh, yeah. My entire"},{"startTime":834.854,"endTime":838.63,"body":"strategy is so Amazon centric, which I know is very"},{"startTime":838.75,"endTime":842.534,"body":"controversial, and a lot of authors think you should not put all of"},{"startTime":842.542,"endTime":845.99,"body":"your eggs in the Amazon basket, which I totally understand"},{"startTime":846.11,"endTime":849.782,"body":"completely. I have chosen to put all of my eggs in the Amazon"},{"startTime":849.846,"endTime":853.654,"body":"basket. And it has paid off for me. But it's certainly"},{"startTime":853.702,"endTime":857.398,"body":"a strategic decision that every author has to make for themselves. And"},{"startTime":857.454,"endTime":861.202,"body":"there's not like a right answer. It just depends on what your go. Yeah, for"},{"startTime":861.226,"endTime":864.642,"body":"sure. So with talking about SEO, especially on the podcast, and"},{"startTime":864.666,"endTime":868.242,"body":"findability and keywords and stuff like that. So I know that there's keywords and"},{"startTime":868.266,"endTime":872.034,"body":"categories that you can select on Amazon. Did you"},{"startTime":872.122,"endTime":875.186,"body":"do all of that stuff yourself? Did you have a tool? Did you hire anyone"},{"startTime":875.218,"endTime":878.642,"body":"for that? Like, what did that look like when you were first releasing the"},{"startTime":878.666,"endTime":882.178,"body":"books? I did it all myself and I did it after just"},{"startTime":882.234,"endTime":885.938,"body":"copious amounts of research in author forums"},{"startTime":886.034,"endTime":889.832,"body":"and talking to other really successful authors. There's a"},{"startTime":889.856,"endTime":893.608,"body":"tool called Publisher Rocket which you can use to look up"},{"startTime":893.664,"endTime":897.464,"body":"what categories your book and other books are in. There are"},{"startTime":897.472,"endTime":900.792,"body":"free options. You don't have to pay for Publisher Rocket, but that was the one"},{"startTime":900.816,"endTime":904.632,"body":"I used. And I would go to all of the successful books and"},{"startTime":904.656,"endTime":908.152,"body":"look and see what categories they were in and see, okay, which of these can"},{"startTime":908.176,"endTime":911.576,"body":"I also fit in? I did a lot of research on how"},{"startTime":911.648,"endTime":915.282,"body":"Amazon treats their categories because, like,"},{"startTime":915.306,"endTime":919.026,"body":"there's ghost categories which you can select but don't show up on the page. There's"},{"startTime":919.058,"endTime":922.818,"body":"duplicate categories which if you choose it, you end up actually in"},{"startTime":922.874,"endTime":926.402,"body":"two categories for the price of one. You can use kind of the"},{"startTime":926.426,"endTime":929.746,"body":"umbrella categories to your benefit. Because, for example, if you're"},{"startTime":929.778,"endTime":933.538,"body":"in a small category under fantasy, you will also"},{"startTime":933.594,"endTime":937.282,"body":"be placed into fantasy. And if you choose a small one"},{"startTime":937.306,"endTime":941.1,"body":"under romance, you will also get nested into romance. And so"},{"startTime":941.14,"endTime":944.812,"body":"choosing the lower level categories over the high level categories,"},{"startTime":944.876,"endTime":948.508,"body":"you get more bang for your buck. So a lot of strategic"},{"startTime":948.604,"endTime":952.284,"body":"stuff went into that. I definitely did my keywords"},{"startTime":952.332,"endTime":955.932,"body":"terribly first. I think I broke every rule Amazon has with"},{"startTime":955.956,"endTime":959.66,"body":"keywords. Thankfully, it didn't catch up to me and I fixed them later."},{"startTime":959.7,"endTime":962.908,"body":"And when I did fix them, I saw a massive increase"},{"startTime":963.044,"endTime":966.732,"body":"in, you know, sales and readers finding my book."},{"startTime":966.836,"endTime":970.284,"body":"So I definitely saw firsthand how keywords can change"},{"startTime":970.372,"endTime":974.206,"body":"and really help you. That was a very big part of my strategy."},{"startTime":974.318,"endTime":977.726,"body":"I love that. And I love that you just dove down the rabbit hole yourself"},{"startTime":977.758,"endTime":981.278,"body":"and went and did all this research. Because back to the scrappy thing, like, you"},{"startTime":981.334,"endTime":985.006,"body":"have to do that and you're either gonna pay with time, money, effort, like there's"},{"startTime":985.038,"endTime":988.782,"body":"gonna be some component that you're going to expend. So"},{"startTime":988.806,"endTime":991.55,"body":"I love that you were like, I'm just gonna go learn all about it and"},{"startTime":991.59,"endTime":994.734,"body":"do it to the best of my ability. And that you Thought of going back"},{"startTime":994.822,"endTime":998.616,"body":"and changing them too. Yeah. I very firmly believe"},{"startTime":998.688,"endTime":1001.88,"body":"that success, especially as an author, is not necessarily"},{"startTime":1001.96,"endTime":1005.688,"body":"making the right decision every time, but it is a series"},{"startTime":1005.744,"endTime":1009.46,"body":"of decisions that you make and everything is a decision."},{"startTime":1009.92,"endTime":1013.72,"body":"And I think success is about making each one of those decisions"},{"startTime":1013.8,"endTime":1017.64,"body":"very intentionally and with thought and research and"},{"startTime":1017.76,"endTime":1021.528,"body":"careful deliberation. And so I tried to"},{"startTime":1021.584,"endTime":1025.43,"body":"never do anything when it came to my book, just thoughtlessly. I"},{"startTime":1025.47,"endTime":1029.27,"body":"tried to really research each one and get as"},{"startTime":1029.31,"endTime":1033.046,"body":"much information as I could, because there is a wealth of information out there for"},{"startTime":1033.118,"endTime":1036.902,"body":"free if you're just willing to do a little work to go find it. And"},{"startTime":1036.926,"endTime":1040.742,"body":"I think that's a really big part of why I was able to"},{"startTime":1040.766,"endTime":1044.454,"body":"be successful relatively early on, because"},{"startTime":1044.622,"endTime":1048.278,"body":"all of those decisions were super strategic and"},{"startTime":1048.334,"endTime":1051.572,"body":"intentionally made. I could not agree more."},{"startTime":1051.766,"endTime":1055.576,"body":"So the way that I consumed the books was audiobooks."},{"startTime":1055.688,"endTime":1059.368,"body":"Was that something that you did when you were first self published, or"},{"startTime":1059.424,"endTime":1062.664,"body":"is that, you know, something that's been released since you became traditionally"},{"startTime":1062.712,"endTime":1066.28,"body":"published? A little bit in between. So a"},{"startTime":1066.32,"endTime":1069.992,"body":"few months after I published Spark and Glow, an"},{"startTime":1070.016,"endTime":1073.848,"body":"audiobook publisher called Podium reached out to me and offered to"},{"startTime":1073.904,"endTime":1077.704,"body":"make audiobooks for my books. And so I sold the audio rights to"},{"startTime":1077.712,"endTime":1081.072,"body":"them very early on. That definitely had some pros and"},{"startTime":1081.096,"endTime":1084.304,"body":"cons, but it at least allowed me to get the"},{"startTime":1084.312,"endTime":1088.112,"body":"audiobooks onto the market pretty fast for"},{"startTime":1088.136,"endTime":1091.872,"body":"an indie and especially for a debut indie, since this was my"},{"startTime":1091.896,"endTime":1095.744,"body":"first series. So that was my first kind of"},{"startTime":1095.912,"endTime":1099.552,"body":"stepping my toe into the traditionally published waters"},{"startTime":1099.616,"endTime":1103.344,"body":"was selling my audio to an audiobook publisher. And I know"},{"startTime":1103.352,"endTime":1106.664,"body":"that's a route that a lot of indies go is through Podium,"},{"startTime":1106.712,"endTime":1110.52,"body":"Tantor, Dreamscape, those kind of indie focused"},{"startTime":1110.6,"endTime":1114.392,"body":"audio publishers. Gotcha. So I listened to tons of"},{"startTime":1114.416,"endTime":1118.248,"body":"audiobooks. Were you able to select who"},{"startTime":1118.304,"endTime":1122.088,"body":"was going to narrate your books or at that point, it was all over with"},{"startTime":1122.144,"endTime":1125.64,"body":"their company. I did. They gave me a few options. I told"},{"startTime":1125.68,"endTime":1128.968,"body":"them, okay, this is the kind of person I think we need. This is what's"},{"startTime":1128.984,"endTime":1132.256,"body":"important to me. I had a casting director who"},{"startTime":1132.448,"endTime":1136.128,"body":"took my preferences and gave me some suggestions. I went and"},{"startTime":1136.184,"endTime":1139.952,"body":"listened to their samples for my male narrator. They actually did some"},{"startTime":1139.976,"endTime":1143.792,"body":"auditions. So I had three narrators read a passage"},{"startTime":1143.856,"endTime":1147.584,"body":"from my book and send that back. And I chose the one that I liked"},{"startTime":1147.632,"endTime":1151.36,"body":"best. And then after we hired them, I sent"},{"startTime":1151.4,"endTime":1155.088,"body":"them a big document of okay, it basically is"},{"startTime":1155.144,"endTime":1158.896,"body":"every character and then my thoughts on how that character should be played."},{"startTime":1158.968,"endTime":1162.576,"body":"So, like, this guy's really funny and lighthearted and goofy, and this guy"},{"startTime":1162.608,"endTime":1166.332,"body":"is very gruff and serious. And, you know, whatever. And I know who both of"},{"startTime":1166.356,"endTime":1170.172,"body":"them are. Right, exactly. Because they're effectively actors."},{"startTime":1170.236,"endTime":1173.964,"body":"And that way they could put that into their performance."},{"startTime":1174.052,"endTime":1177.724,"body":"Because they can't read the whole series before they start narrating"},{"startTime":1177.772,"endTime":1181.58,"body":"it. So that at least gives them some idea of how those characters should be."},{"startTime":1181.7,"endTime":1185.372,"body":"Oh, that's interesting. So they don't read it through. Maybe there's some"},{"startTime":1185.396,"endTime":1188.908,"body":"narrators who read a little bit ahead. I'm sure it's different for all of them,"},{"startTime":1188.964,"endTime":1192.1,"body":"but they're recording, you know, 100 plus"},{"startTime":1192.18,"endTime":1195.924,"body":"books a year, so I imagine they probably don't"},{"startTime":1195.972,"endTime":1199.652,"body":"have time to read all of the books they narrate before they narrate them. That"},{"startTime":1199.676,"endTime":1202.772,"body":"is even more impressive. And I just have to say, selecting the"},{"startTime":1202.796,"endTime":1206.388,"body":"narrator is very similar to selecting your cover, where that"},{"startTime":1206.444,"endTime":1210.164,"body":"can totally crash your book too. Because there have been books"},{"startTime":1210.212,"endTime":1212.692,"body":"where I'm like, I know this is good. I'm going to have to get the"},{"startTime":1212.716,"endTime":1216.548,"body":"physical copy because I just, I can't deal for sure. I felt really"},{"startTime":1216.604,"endTime":1220.18,"body":"strongly, especially since this is a first person POV and it's in"},{"startTime":1220.3,"endTime":1223.856,"body":"my female main character in her pov and"},{"startTime":1224.008,"endTime":1227.36,"body":"she has a very specific personality."},{"startTime":1227.44,"endTime":1230.336,"body":"She's kind of a little bit sassy, kind of"},{"startTime":1230.408,"endTime":1234.192,"body":"humorous. And I really felt like the audiobook"},{"startTime":1234.256,"endTime":1237.504,"body":"success or failure would be based on the narrator's ability"},{"startTime":1237.632,"endTime":1241.424,"body":"to hit those comedic beats, but also"},{"startTime":1241.592,"endTime":1245.072,"body":"really show the emotional depth that she has at"},{"startTime":1245.096,"endTime":1248.512,"body":"times. And so that was one of the instructions I gave the casting director is"},{"startTime":1248.536,"endTime":1251.704,"body":"I need somebody who can do humor but also can do, like,"},{"startTime":1251.792,"endTime":1255.64,"body":"drama. And that's why she found me Amanda, who I love and"},{"startTime":1255.68,"endTime":1258.856,"body":"thinks is like the most perfect Diem there ever could be. Oh, my gosh, she's"},{"startTime":1258.888,"endTime":1262.008,"body":"amazing. You did. You did a beautiful job. And she did a beautiful job actually,"},{"startTime":1262.064,"endTime":1265.64,"body":"like, bringing that to life. I had to just shout that out. Okay, so"},{"startTime":1265.68,"endTime":1269.4,"body":"as we wrap up this part, are there any words of advice that"},{"startTime":1269.44,"endTime":1272.184,"body":"you haven't shared or anything that you really want to just, like, stick on a"},{"startTime":1272.192,"endTime":1275.534,"body":"billboard for indie authors when it comes to marketing?"},{"startTime":1275.712,"endTime":1279.33,"body":"Yes. I think too many authors"},{"startTime":1279.41,"endTime":1283.17,"body":"especially, well, really indie and trad get caught up in number"},{"startTime":1283.21,"endTime":1287.01,"body":"one, chasing virality. This is particularly on"},{"startTime":1287.05,"endTime":1290.562,"body":"everyone's mind with the TikTok ban coming up and"},{"startTime":1290.666,"endTime":1294.45,"body":"also just thinking that the marketing is going to"},{"startTime":1294.49,"endTime":1298.258,"body":"make or break their book and maybe putting too much emphasis"},{"startTime":1298.274,"endTime":1302.044,"body":"on that over the book itself. I don't"},{"startTime":1302.092,"endTime":1305.74,"body":"actually think marketing is as powerful as people give it"},{"startTime":1305.78,"endTime":1309.16,"body":"credit for. It certainly is important. I will never deny that."},{"startTime":1309.62,"endTime":1313.372,"body":"But it really does come down to the book. If you"},{"startTime":1313.396,"endTime":1317.132,"body":"have a viral moment and the book doesn't deliver and all these people go read"},{"startTime":1317.156,"endTime":1320.94,"body":"it and hate it, it's going to turn into negative virality, right? And people saying,"},{"startTime":1320.98,"endTime":1324.268,"body":"don't read this book. It was my most disappointing read, you know,"},{"startTime":1324.404,"endTime":1327.52,"body":"dnf these books. And so you don't want that either."},{"startTime":1328.06,"endTime":1331.476,"body":"The book has to deliver. So I would say"},{"startTime":1331.628,"endTime":1335.012,"body":"I really think marketing begins with"},{"startTime":1335.196,"endTime":1338.564,"body":"writing to market and studying the market, studying the"},{"startTime":1338.572,"endTime":1342.42,"body":"bestsellers in your genre, looking at what they do well, looking"},{"startTime":1342.46,"endTime":1346.132,"body":"at what readers love most about them, what readers don't like"},{"startTime":1346.156,"endTime":1349.684,"body":"about them, and asking yourself, how can I"},{"startTime":1349.852,"endTime":1353.3,"body":"adapt those into my book in a way that's authentic to me and my"},{"startTime":1353.34,"endTime":1356.956,"body":"voice? And writing a book that"},{"startTime":1357.108,"endTime":1360.94,"body":"makes people keep thinking about it and keep talking about it long after"},{"startTime":1360.98,"endTime":1364.78,"body":"they've read it. If you're only starting to think about marketing when the book"},{"startTime":1364.82,"endTime":1368.636,"body":"is done, you've missed the boat. So start"},{"startTime":1368.708,"endTime":1372.172,"body":"there from the beginning, thinking about how you're gonna market the"},{"startTime":1372.196,"endTime":1376.012,"body":"book. I know a lot of people who write the synopsis for their"},{"startTime":1376.036,"endTime":1379.64,"body":"book, like the marketing copy before they even start writing the book."},{"startTime":1379.95,"endTime":1383.382,"body":"As you're writing, constantly be thinking about, how am I gonna market this? How are"},{"startTime":1383.406,"endTime":1386.87,"body":"people gonna talk about this once it's on the market? What do I want"},{"startTime":1386.91,"endTime":1390.662,"body":"readers to say about this when they finish it? Do I want them"},{"startTime":1390.686,"endTime":1394.502,"body":"to say, oh, this is like the best found family I've ever read. It's so"},{"startTime":1394.526,"endTime":1398.134,"body":"nuanced, it's so diverse. Like, I love all of these characters. Cause"},{"startTime":1398.182,"endTime":1401.606,"body":"if so, you gotta write a found family that delivers on that, you know?"},{"startTime":1401.758,"endTime":1405.494,"body":"And don't think that you need a viral moment to"},{"startTime":1405.502,"endTime":1408.992,"body":"be successful because slow and steady wins the race. As"},{"startTime":1409.096,"endTime":1412.944,"body":"cliche as it sounds like, a lot of books have their viral moment and"},{"startTime":1412.952,"endTime":1416.656,"body":"then they vanish. If you really want to have a long term success"},{"startTime":1416.728,"endTime":1420.448,"body":"that lasts for months and years of sustained sales,"},{"startTime":1420.624,"endTime":1423.84,"body":"then it comes down to the book and whether it keeps people"},{"startTime":1423.88,"endTime":1427.632,"body":"talking. Oh, yes, for sure. Because it needs to be said. And"},{"startTime":1427.656,"endTime":1431.392,"body":"I don't think enough people really think that way. And clearly, because you did"},{"startTime":1431.416,"endTime":1435.152,"body":"think that way, that impacted things at least to some degree,"},{"startTime":1435.216,"endTime":1438.666,"body":"you know, I think so. All right, so you had the self"},{"startTime":1438.698,"endTime":1442.346,"body":"publish. That's kind of continued for you, like you said with the ebooks. But"},{"startTime":1442.418,"endTime":1445.594,"body":"how did marketing change once you became traditionally"},{"startTime":1445.642,"endTime":1449.098,"body":"published? It hasn't changed that much, to be really honest with"},{"startTime":1449.154,"endTime":1452.714,"body":"you. I know a lot of people who really want a traditional"},{"startTime":1452.762,"endTime":1456.602,"body":"publishing deal because they believe that that means they"},{"startTime":1456.626,"endTime":1460.122,"body":"get to stop doing marketing and they can just focus on writing and their"},{"startTime":1460.146,"endTime":1463.764,"body":"publisher will do all of that work. That's not how it"},{"startTime":1463.772,"endTime":1467.412,"body":"works. I'm sad to say. I don't really know anybody who"},{"startTime":1467.436,"endTime":1471.252,"body":"gets their book recommendations from publishers anymore or, you"},{"startTime":1471.276,"endTime":1474.996,"body":"know, kind of legacy media like magazines and newspapers,"},{"startTime":1475.028,"endTime":1478.756,"body":"the kind of stuff that traditional publishers have a monopoly"},{"startTime":1478.788,"endTime":1482.436,"body":"over. I just don't think that's where people are finding their books anymore. They're"},{"startTime":1482.468,"endTime":1486.292,"body":"really finding them from social media, from their friends, from book clubs,"},{"startTime":1486.356,"endTime":1489.92,"body":"reader groups. And those things are much more driven by"},{"startTime":1490.43,"endTime":1494.246,"body":"authors and readers rather than publishers. So"},{"startTime":1494.318,"endTime":1497.59,"body":"where I think a traditional publisher has helped me"},{"startTime":1497.71,"endTime":1501.478,"body":"is I was very lucky that they sent me on a book"},{"startTime":1501.534,"endTime":1505.302,"body":"tour, like an in person book tour. When my book released,"},{"startTime":1505.366,"endTime":1509.142,"body":"they were able to get me into some conventions, they"},{"startTime":1509.166,"endTime":1512.518,"body":"have gotten me some interviews on some, you know, large"},{"startTime":1512.654,"endTime":1516.246,"body":"legacy media like Wall Street Journal and New York Times,"},{"startTime":1516.318,"endTime":1520.074,"body":"things like that. But I don't think those things really moved the needle"},{"startTime":1520.122,"endTime":1523.962,"body":"that much with sales as much as the stuff I was still doing from when"},{"startTime":1523.986,"endTime":1527.69,"body":"I was an indie author, which is just being present all the"},{"startTime":1527.73,"endTime":1531.53,"body":"time, engaging with readers, having my reader group posting on"},{"startTime":1531.57,"endTime":1535.354,"body":"social media, all of that stuff. I don't think you can escape"},{"startTime":1535.402,"endTime":1538.938,"body":"that even as a traditionally published author, which I know a lot of people don't"},{"startTime":1538.954,"endTime":1542.698,"body":"want to hear, but I'm sad to say I think it's true. I was actually"},{"startTime":1542.754,"endTime":1545.802,"body":"hoping for that answer because that's what I've seen, at least from the nonfiction side"},{"startTime":1545.826,"endTime":1549.66,"body":"of things. And I was imagining it was pretty similar with fiction. But"},{"startTime":1549.96,"endTime":1553.552,"body":"so many people that I hear, at least in conversations that I'm having are like,"},{"startTime":1553.576,"endTime":1555.568,"body":"I'm going to write a book and it's going to be a bestseller and I'm"},{"startTime":1555.584,"endTime":1559.104,"body":"going to do this and I'm going to get it traditionally published. And even conversations"},{"startTime":1559.152,"endTime":1562.512,"body":"I hear with my boyfriend and his clients and they think that traditional"},{"startTime":1562.576,"endTime":1566.352,"body":"publishers are like the end all be all, and that it's hands off at"},{"startTime":1566.376,"endTime":1570.208,"body":"that point, like you said. And it's really not. It's definitely not happy"},{"startTime":1570.224,"endTime":1573.584,"body":"to hear it from you. And the forums of traditionally published"},{"startTime":1573.632,"endTime":1577.398,"body":"authors are just chock full of authors who"},{"startTime":1577.454,"endTime":1581.094,"body":"feel very disappointed because they bought into that"},{"startTime":1581.182,"endTime":1584.47,"body":"myth that once I get a book deal with a big"},{"startTime":1584.51,"endTime":1588.278,"body":"publisher, then I'm set. You know, they're going to publish me, they're"},{"startTime":1588.294,"endTime":1590.87,"body":"going to get me in all the bookstores. They have a lot less power than"},{"startTime":1590.91,"endTime":1594.63,"body":"I think people realize. You know, they go to the booksellers and they"},{"startTime":1594.67,"endTime":1598.022,"body":"say, hey, we think this is a good book. We really think you should put"},{"startTime":1598.046,"endTime":1601.542,"body":"it on their shelves. But it's up to the buyers for each of, you know,"},{"startTime":1601.566,"endTime":1605.334,"body":"all of the retailers to make the decision of what books they're going to buy"},{"startTime":1605.422,"endTime":1608.882,"body":"and stock on their shelves, and publishers cannot make them do"},{"startTime":1608.906,"endTime":1612.578,"body":"it. So, you know, in my case, I was able"},{"startTime":1612.634,"endTime":1616.066,"body":"to actually, before I was even traditionally published, I was"},{"startTime":1616.218,"endTime":1619.81,"body":"trying to build relationships with booksellers, and I had emailed every"},{"startTime":1619.85,"endTime":1623.458,"body":"single Barnes and Noble in the country, and I sent them a little one"},{"startTime":1623.514,"endTime":1627.122,"body":"sheet with, here's how many followers I have on social, and here's how many"},{"startTime":1627.146,"endTime":1630.626,"body":"times my hashtag was mentioned on TikTok, and here's how many"},{"startTime":1630.778,"endTime":1634.244,"body":"TBR ads I have on Goodreads. Please stock my book."},{"startTime":1634.412,"endTime":1638.116,"body":"Please put my book on your shelves. You know, I didn't have a publisher telling"},{"startTime":1638.148,"endTime":1641.092,"body":"them to do it, right. So I had to do it myself. And so then"},{"startTime":1641.116,"endTime":1644.436,"body":"when I went traditionally published, they already knew who I was. They'd heard of me,"},{"startTime":1644.508,"endTime":1648.228,"body":"they'd gotten that information, and my publisher"},{"startTime":1648.244,"endTime":1650.676,"body":"was able to come back to them and say, hey, she's got this many followers"},{"startTime":1650.708,"endTime":1654.02,"body":"on TikTok. She's got this many ads on Goodreads. You know, all of this"},{"startTime":1654.06,"endTime":1657.892,"body":"stuff, the social proof, again, people are talking about this. They want"},{"startTime":1657.916,"endTime":1661.39,"body":"to buy it. And that was what convinced the"},{"startTime":1661.43,"endTime":1664.77,"body":"retailers to stock my book and put it on their shelves."},{"startTime":1665.11,"endTime":1668.73,"body":"So if your publisher has nothing to say"},{"startTime":1669.03,"endTime":1671.95,"body":"except we think this is a good book, they're gonna say that about every book"},{"startTime":1671.99,"endTime":1675.63,"body":"they publish, right? Yeah. So what can you bring to the table"},{"startTime":1675.71,"endTime":1679.326,"body":"to give your publisher ammunition to go to them and"},{"startTime":1679.398,"endTime":1683.086,"body":"say, this is a good book. And also, here's"},{"startTime":1683.118,"endTime":1686.588,"body":"some proof that readers want it, and they are gonna come buy it."},{"startTime":1686.734,"endTime":1689.792,"body":"And the publisher can't do that for you. You have to kind of create that"},{"startTime":1689.816,"endTime":1693.552,"body":"yourself. One thing I'm curious about is getting into libraries. Did"},{"startTime":1693.656,"endTime":1697.472,"body":"working with a traditional publisher assist in that at all, or were you"},{"startTime":1697.496,"endTime":1700.976,"body":"doing the same thing of, like, going and talking with libraries? I know my book,"},{"startTime":1701.048,"endTime":1704.8,"body":"even before it was traditionally published, was in a lot of libraries. It"},{"startTime":1704.84,"endTime":1708.416,"body":"was a little bit of an intentional decision. I had my street"},{"startTime":1708.488,"endTime":1712.008,"body":"team, we did a thing where they all went out to their libraries"},{"startTime":1712.144,"endTime":1715.544,"body":"to request that they buy a copy of my book"},{"startTime":1715.712,"endTime":1718.776,"body":"and stock it at their local library. So we did"},{"startTime":1718.928,"endTime":1722.664,"body":"intentionally push that from kind of the reader"},{"startTime":1722.712,"endTime":1726.28,"body":"side I had published through IngramSpark, and I think a lot of"},{"startTime":1726.32,"endTime":1730.1,"body":"libraries get their books through the IngramSpark system."},{"startTime":1730.72,"endTime":1734.184,"body":"It certainly has ramped up a lot more now that I'm traditionally"},{"startTime":1734.232,"endTime":1737.672,"body":"published. I don't know how that's Kind of invisible to"},{"startTime":1737.696,"endTime":1741.406,"body":"me. Also, one of the downsides of having gone through, like podium"},{"startTime":1741.438,"endTime":1744.942,"body":"is audible exclusive, which means my audiobooks can't be in"},{"startTime":1744.966,"endTime":1748.718,"body":"libraries, which is unfortunate. I don't love that. But it's"},{"startTime":1748.734,"endTime":1752.558,"body":"out of my control, unfortunately. So other than that one"},{"startTime":1752.614,"endTime":1756.27,"body":"kind of push, I didn't really make a huge effort with"},{"startTime":1756.31,"endTime":1759.822,"body":"libraries, but it worked out. I think libraries just want to stock what their"},{"startTime":1759.846,"endTime":1763.502,"body":"readers want to read. So again, it comes down"},{"startTime":1763.526,"endTime":1767.324,"body":"to, do you leave readers begging their local library to"},{"startTime":1767.412,"endTime":1770.812,"body":"stock your book? Yeah. If you're listening and you're like, I should try this, do"},{"startTime":1770.836,"endTime":1774.332,"body":"it. They listen. They do. I can think of a couple of books that I"},{"startTime":1774.356,"endTime":1778.172,"body":"requested multiple times, maybe like two or three times, just to the point where they"},{"startTime":1778.196,"endTime":1780.732,"body":"were like, oh, okay, I guess we've gotten enough requests. And then I don't know"},{"startTime":1780.756,"endTime":1784.204,"body":"how it happened, but I was like, this one. Yeah, exactly. That's how it"},{"startTime":1784.212,"endTime":1787.916,"body":"happens. I love that. So, and I don't know if this would have been self"},{"startTime":1787.948,"endTime":1791.532,"body":"published or traditionally published, but have you ever participated in any, like,"},{"startTime":1791.556,"endTime":1795.176,"body":"promotions or giveaways, and did that seem to be a worthwhile marketing"},{"startTime":1795.208,"endTime":1798.44,"body":"activity if you did? I've done a lot of giveaways."},{"startTime":1798.6,"endTime":1801.96,"body":"I think they're really good for getting followers on social"},{"startTime":1802.0,"endTime":1805.72,"body":"media or TBR ads or whatever. I don't think they are very good"},{"startTime":1805.76,"endTime":1809.48,"body":"for sales, personally. I just don't see them"},{"startTime":1809.52,"endTime":1813.048,"body":"moving the needle at all on sales. But that's okay."},{"startTime":1813.144,"endTime":1816.824,"body":"There are other metrics for success than selling"},{"startTime":1816.872,"endTime":1820.68,"body":"books, you know, So I think I still, to this day, have done every"},{"startTime":1820.72,"endTime":1824.5,"body":"single giveaway I've ever been asked to do. I think it's just good"},{"startTime":1824.54,"endTime":1828.036,"body":"advertising. It's good for name recognition, cover recognition."},{"startTime":1828.228,"endTime":1831.88,"body":"You know, social media giveaways are really good for building followers."},{"startTime":1832.46,"endTime":1835.84,"body":"Do they sell books? Probably not."},{"startTime":1836.7,"endTime":1840.484,"body":"I love that. With social proof and going back to that,"},{"startTime":1840.652,"endTime":1844.404,"body":"where have you gotten the best reviews? And I'm curious,"},{"startTime":1844.452,"endTime":1848.148,"body":"too. Like, have you done anything to try to help people along"},{"startTime":1848.204,"endTime":1851.912,"body":"in getting them to share book reviews? These days, I don't pay attention to"},{"startTime":1851.936,"endTime":1855.416,"body":"reviews at all. I avoid them like the plague. I had my husband block gutter"},{"startTime":1855.448,"endTime":1859.288,"body":"reads from every device I own, but at the beginning, you know,"},{"startTime":1859.344,"endTime":1862.936,"body":"obviously that's a really important part. For me, the best"},{"startTime":1863.008,"endTime":1866.728,"body":"thing with reviews was just getting as many ARC readers as I"},{"startTime":1866.784,"endTime":1870.328,"body":"possibly could. I gave a book to"},{"startTime":1870.384,"endTime":1874.168,"body":"every person who would hear me out for two seconds."},{"startTime":1874.344,"endTime":1878.04,"body":"They didn't immediately ignore me. After, you know,"},{"startTime":1878.08,"endTime":1881.91,"body":"a minute of talking. I was just like, here, here's a free book. Please take"},{"startTime":1881.95,"endTime":1885.494,"body":"it Um, I joined tons of ARC reader"},{"startTime":1885.542,"endTime":1888.45,"body":"groups of people looking for arcs. I"},{"startTime":1888.83,"endTime":1892.63,"body":"joined Discord specifically for arcs. I really"},{"startTime":1892.67,"endTime":1896.342,"body":"wanted to give, like, a thousand arcs. I did not give a thousand arcs, but"},{"startTime":1896.366,"endTime":1900.198,"body":"that was my goal, was give as many as I could. If"},{"startTime":1900.254,"endTime":1903.814,"body":"I had had 5,000 ARC requests, I would have given 5,000 ARCs."},{"startTime":1903.862,"endTime":1907.106,"body":"Happily. I really believe"},{"startTime":1907.278,"endTime":1911.082,"body":"that ARCs drive sales. They don't suppress"},{"startTime":1911.146,"endTime":1913.93,"body":"them. I know a lot of people are afraid to give away too many free"},{"startTime":1913.97,"endTime":1917.466,"body":"books at the beginning because they think that's going to cannibalize their sales."},{"startTime":1917.658,"endTime":1921.45,"body":"I think it's entirely the opposite, especially with E"},{"startTime":1921.49,"endTime":1925.29,"body":"arcs, because if people get an EARC of"},{"startTime":1925.33,"endTime":1928.874,"body":"your book, if they love it, they tend to go buy the physical"},{"startTime":1928.922,"endTime":1932.394,"body":"copy. Right. Is there, like, shelf trophy, call it?"},{"startTime":1932.562,"endTime":1936.12,"body":"And so it can lead to a lot of sales. And"},{"startTime":1936.16,"endTime":1939.8,"body":"then, you know, when you have hundreds of people talking about your"},{"startTime":1939.84,"endTime":1943.512,"body":"book online, again, you can't buy that kind"},{"startTime":1943.536,"endTime":1947.288,"body":"of marketing and word of mouth. So"},{"startTime":1947.424,"endTime":1950.872,"body":"it's a very cheap way to get a lot"},{"startTime":1950.896,"endTime":1954.552,"body":"of, you know, traction on socials. And I see a"},{"startTime":1954.576,"endTime":1957.992,"body":"direct correlation between the number of arcs I"},{"startTime":1958.016,"endTime":1961.864,"body":"give and how well a release goes. This is"},{"startTime":1961.872,"endTime":1965.522,"body":"something also, I. I watched religiously every"},{"startTime":1965.626,"endTime":1969.106,"body":"new release in my genre that I knew about, and I would just"},{"startTime":1969.178,"endTime":1973.026,"body":"slide into people's DMs and say, hey, so, like, out of Curiosity, how many ARCs"},{"startTime":1973.058,"endTime":1976.482,"body":"did you send? And I had my little chart of, like, all of my"},{"startTime":1976.506,"endTime":1980.002,"body":"colleagues and how many ARCs they sent and how well their releases did in terms"},{"startTime":1980.026,"endTime":1983.202,"body":"of rankings and all of that. Obviously, I didn't know their sales data, but I"},{"startTime":1983.226,"endTime":1987.042,"body":"could look at the rankings they hid and my perception of how"},{"startTime":1987.066,"endTime":1990.796,"body":"well a release went. Again, the ones that gave the most arcs"},{"startTime":1990.828,"endTime":1994.492,"body":"were having the best releases. The ones that gave the fewest were kind"},{"startTime":1994.516,"endTime":1998.236,"body":"of going unnoticed. So I very firmly believed"},{"startTime":1998.268,"endTime":2001.516,"body":"in that. And I think I gave about"},{"startTime":2001.588,"endTime":2004.748,"body":"350 arcs. And I ended up"},{"startTime":2004.804,"endTime":2008.252,"body":"with. I think I had 120 reviews when it"},{"startTime":2008.276,"endTime":2012.044,"body":"released, and some people kind of trickled in later. So"},{"startTime":2012.052,"endTime":2015.84,"body":"I think I had about 160, so a little under half, which"},{"startTime":2015.88,"endTime":2019.26,"body":"I consider a good number. The return on arcs is low."},{"startTime":2019.8,"endTime":2023.5,"body":"I would say it's like 10 to 30%, really."},{"startTime":2023.88,"endTime":2027.36,"body":"So I was pretty happy with that return. And"},{"startTime":2027.4,"endTime":2030.912,"body":"otherwise, I think that was also a really big part in how it"},{"startTime":2031.096,"endTime":2034.928,"body":"got traction early at the beginning, because that's 160"},{"startTime":2034.984,"endTime":2038.592,"body":"people talking about your book and recommending it. Not all of them recommended it,"},{"startTime":2038.616,"endTime":2042.038,"body":"obviously, but, you know, enough of them did."},{"startTime":2042.174,"endTime":2045.942,"body":"Yeah, I'm just, like, beaming over here because I knew I liked You."},{"startTime":2045.966,"endTime":2049.718,"body":"But there's so many things that overlap between, you know, being an author"},{"startTime":2049.774,"endTime":2053.158,"body":"and what that career trajectory looks like in the marketing"},{"startTime":2053.334,"endTime":2056.838,"body":"activities that you're doing, as well as just being like a quote unquote, normal online"},{"startTime":2056.894,"endTime":2060.374,"body":"business owner. Yeah. Where I will happily go on a"},{"startTime":2060.382,"endTime":2063.862,"body":"podcast and share my framework or share whatever. And the"},{"startTime":2063.886,"endTime":2067.318,"body":"version that I hear is like, oh, you don't gatekeep. This is amazing. And it's"},{"startTime":2067.334,"endTime":2071.062,"body":"like, why would I like the information's out there to your point. Like, you"},{"startTime":2071.086,"endTime":2074.722,"body":"can go and find the information. You and I are just gonna cut down the"},{"startTime":2074.746,"endTime":2078.242,"body":"research time that you have. So, like, why would we not do that? Yeah,"},{"startTime":2078.306,"endTime":2082.114,"body":"absolutely. Especially in publishing. Because it's not like a finite,"},{"startTime":2082.242,"endTime":2086.082,"body":"you know, amount of sales necessarily. Readers aren't reading one book,"},{"startTime":2086.186,"endTime":2089.73,"body":"they're reading hundreds. And they will buy as many"},{"startTime":2089.77,"endTime":2093.586,"body":"books as they find interesting. So it's not like because they bought"},{"startTime":2093.618,"endTime":2097.33,"body":"my book, they're not gonna buy somebody else's or vice versa. So it makes no"},{"startTime":2097.37,"endTime":2101.09,"body":"sense not to just work together to figure out how"},{"startTime":2101.13,"endTime":2104.466,"body":"do we sell our books. Yeah, it's so silly because we have good"},{"startTime":2104.538,"endTime":2107.506,"body":"reads, goals, people. We need to read the book."},{"startTime":2107.658,"endTime":2111.042,"body":"Exactly. So you mentioned the tour that you went on in"},{"startTime":2111.066,"endTime":2114.61,"body":"2024 and I was following along and it was so fun to just like watch"},{"startTime":2114.65,"endTime":2117.762,"body":"you and go to all these in person events and talk to your people and"},{"startTime":2117.786,"endTime":2121.474,"body":"everything. Do you have any, like, tips or advice for really anyone"},{"startTime":2121.522,"endTime":2125.186,"body":"doing any kind of in person event in order to get sales and build connections,"},{"startTime":2125.218,"endTime":2128.828,"body":"but like, any words or thoughts there? Yeah, I don't think"},{"startTime":2128.884,"endTime":2132.572,"body":"that in person events are. Well, for me. I didn't think that they"},{"startTime":2132.596,"endTime":2136.412,"body":"were that big for sales. Obviously you sell books at"},{"startTime":2136.436,"endTime":2140.156,"body":"them, which is nice and lovely. Lots of people do conventions"},{"startTime":2140.188,"endTime":2143.56,"body":"and things and those are good money makers for them."},{"startTime":2144.1,"endTime":2147.788,"body":"For me, it was much more about just building"},{"startTime":2147.924,"endTime":2151.516,"body":"relationships with my readers"},{"startTime":2151.708,"endTime":2155.478,"body":"and having them be invested in me as a person"},{"startTime":2155.534,"endTime":2159.126,"body":"and not just invested in my books. I"},{"startTime":2159.198,"endTime":2162.614,"body":"just did this, the CliftonStrengths analysis"},{"startTime":2162.662,"endTime":2165.974,"body":"test, if anybody knows anything about that. And one of my top ones"},{"startTime":2166.102,"endTime":2169.862,"body":"was significance, which this business coach I work with told me"},{"startTime":2169.886,"endTime":2173.702,"body":"that means you want people to not just buy your books for your books, but"},{"startTime":2173.726,"endTime":2176.678,"body":"buy your books for you. Right. You want them to like you as a person"},{"startTime":2176.734,"endTime":2180.47,"body":"and be invested in you. And that's very much me. I want them to"},{"startTime":2180.51,"endTime":2184.166,"body":"be invested in the penpol brand so that they're"},{"startTime":2184.198,"endTime":2188.018,"body":"with me for whatever I write moving forward and"},{"startTime":2188.074,"endTime":2191.23,"body":"not just abandoning me after this series is over."},{"startTime":2191.85,"endTime":2195.266,"body":"So the in person events I Did I"},{"startTime":2195.338,"endTime":2199.058,"body":"really tried to engage as much as I could with every"},{"startTime":2199.114,"endTime":2202.722,"body":"single person I talked to and talk to them, find out what"},{"startTime":2202.746,"endTime":2206.498,"body":"they loved about the series, you know, who their favorite character was,"},{"startTime":2206.554,"endTime":2209.762,"body":"how they came to find it. Just get to know them a little bit as"},{"startTime":2209.866,"endTime":2212.796,"body":"a person. And I tried to be fully on"},{"startTime":2212.868,"endTime":2216.22,"body":"100% with every single person I talked to, no matter how tired I"},{"startTime":2216.26,"endTime":2220.076,"body":"was. And I always want people to walk away from any interaction"},{"startTime":2220.108,"endTime":2223.708,"body":"with me feeling filled up. You know what I mean? Feeling like that"},{"startTime":2223.764,"endTime":2227.0,"body":"interaction left them happier than they started."},{"startTime":2227.54,"endTime":2231.356,"body":"And that can be hard to do online. So those in person events"},{"startTime":2231.388,"endTime":2235.068,"body":"were really good for making me something other"},{"startTime":2235.124,"endTime":2238.732,"body":"than a name on a cover and making me a human being to my"},{"startTime":2238.756,"endTime":2242.504,"body":"readers, which hopefully, if they have a positive"},{"startTime":2242.552,"endTime":2246.392,"body":"experience, then that will keep me front of mind. When somebody asks them what"},{"startTime":2246.416,"endTime":2250.152,"body":"book should I read next, they're thinking of me because they had that positive"},{"startTime":2250.216,"endTime":2253.944,"body":"experience. Yeah. Well, I can say, having only met you online,"},{"startTime":2254.032,"endTime":2257.656,"body":"that you definitely left that impression. And it's been really"},{"startTime":2257.808,"endTime":2261.496,"body":"quite cool to watch you navigate, like, some of the"},{"startTime":2261.568,"endTime":2265.144,"body":"pun intended heat that you've taken for certain things. Right?"},{"startTime":2265.232,"endTime":2269.032,"body":"Yeah. And just, like, you've moved with grace, and you've moved with kindness,"},{"startTime":2269.096,"endTime":2272.788,"body":"and that's one thing that, like, definitely has me being loyal to the Penncole"},{"startTime":2272.804,"endTime":2276.58,"body":"brand, because I can see that you are gracious, you are kind. You are"},{"startTime":2276.62,"endTime":2279.812,"body":"just, like, treating people like people. And that's something I try to do. So I"},{"startTime":2279.836,"endTime":2282.692,"body":"see that in you too. And I'm like, well, I'm stuck with her forever. Like,"},{"startTime":2282.716,"endTime":2286.388,"body":"this is awesome. Good. Like to hear that. My husband has this"},{"startTime":2286.444,"endTime":2290.196,"body":"saying. He got it from a friend of his, but it's called leave shiny"},{"startTime":2290.228,"endTime":2293.668,"body":"footprints, and it essentially means when you walk"},{"startTime":2293.724,"endTime":2297.39,"body":"away from an interaction, you want the"},{"startTime":2297.43,"endTime":2301.054,"body":"trace of yourself that you leave to be shiny. Right. Positive"},{"startTime":2301.102,"endTime":2304.91,"body":"and happy. And in order to do that, you have to"},{"startTime":2305.03,"endTime":2308.366,"body":"be very intentional and careful with everything you're saying, everything you're"},{"startTime":2308.398,"endTime":2312.142,"body":"doing. You know, how you run your street teams, or if you have"},{"startTime":2312.166,"endTime":2315.374,"body":"a street team or a hype team or anything like that. How I engage with"},{"startTime":2315.382,"endTime":2318.782,"body":"my arc readers, because that can be a big source of conflict with"},{"startTime":2318.806,"endTime":2322.51,"body":"people trying to never feel entitled to a reader's time"},{"startTime":2322.55,"endTime":2325.74,"body":"or their review or their sale or anything like"},{"startTime":2325.78,"endTime":2329.628,"body":"that. And just every person you interact with, whether it's"},{"startTime":2329.644,"endTime":2333.388,"body":"an author, publisher, reader, moving with kindness and"},{"startTime":2333.444,"endTime":2337.132,"body":"giving people the benefit of the doubt and just leaving"},{"startTime":2337.196,"endTime":2340.7,"body":"shiny footprints because it makes a difference. It really does."},{"startTime":2340.82,"endTime":2344.588,"body":"Oh, I love that. I'm totally using that line. It's"},{"startTime":2344.604,"endTime":2347.9,"body":"not Mine. I can't take credit for it, but say it to myself all of"},{"startTime":2347.94,"endTime":2351.244,"body":"the time when I'm in a bad mood or whatever. No, no, no. I need"},{"startTime":2351.252,"endTime":2354.912,"body":"to leave shiny footprints. I'm gonna keep my mouth shut. That is so cute. I"},{"startTime":2354.936,"endTime":2358.752,"body":"love it. All right, this has been really a great conversation, and I"},{"startTime":2358.776,"endTime":2362.336,"body":"had so many questions that I created a lightning round for you."},{"startTime":2362.488,"endTime":2366.304,"body":"Perfect. Are you ready? Yes. All right,"},{"startTime":2366.472,"endTime":2370.064,"body":"so just whatever comes to top of mind, and we'll go with that. So I"},{"startTime":2370.072,"endTime":2373.648,"body":"know you have a close circle of author friends because as part of your tour,"},{"startTime":2373.704,"endTime":2377.216,"body":"I saw that. How have those relationships impacted your author"},{"startTime":2377.288,"endTime":2380.976,"body":"journey? Oh, my gosh. It's hard to give a short answer to this one. They're"},{"startTime":2381.008,"endTime":2384.644,"body":"my girls. I adore them. This is a hard industry"},{"startTime":2384.732,"endTime":2388.436,"body":"because you're alone so much of the time, and, you know, we're"},{"startTime":2388.468,"endTime":2391.86,"body":"sitting at home alone writing our books, and it feels very"},{"startTime":2391.9,"endTime":2395.684,"body":"lonely putting them out on the Internet and not necessarily getting a lot of feedback"},{"startTime":2395.732,"endTime":2399.572,"body":"at first. So I think that was one of the best things I ever did"},{"startTime":2399.596,"endTime":2402.996,"body":"for myself, was cultivating a close group of author"},{"startTime":2403.068,"endTime":2406.772,"body":"friends. We all started around the same time. We all write in the"},{"startTime":2406.796,"endTime":2410.48,"body":"same genre, and we are"},{"startTime":2410.52,"endTime":2414.24,"body":"able to just vent or share frustrations. See what we're doing"},{"startTime":2414.28,"endTime":2417.904,"body":"that's working for us. Say, I want to do this. Is that a bad idea?"},{"startTime":2417.952,"endTime":2421.36,"body":"And then they could say, yes, it's a bad idea. Don't do that thing. You"},{"startTime":2421.4,"endTime":2425.232,"body":"know, keeping things in the group chat instead of on"},{"startTime":2425.336,"endTime":2428.816,"body":"social media when you're having frustrations or whatever, that"},{"startTime":2428.888,"endTime":2432.544,"body":"is critical for me, and I highly encourage"},{"startTime":2432.592,"endTime":2436.13,"body":"anybody, no matter what genre you write in is drop into"},{"startTime":2436.17,"endTime":2440.002,"body":"people's DMs, introduce yourself. Don't be afraid to just start"},{"startTime":2440.026,"endTime":2443.858,"body":"a group chat with some people. When my group formed, none of us really knew"},{"startTime":2443.874,"endTime":2447.682,"body":"each other that well, but we'd all kind of seen each other around."},{"startTime":2447.866,"endTime":2451.634,"body":"I mean, we were almost strangers when we started it, but we said, we need"},{"startTime":2451.722,"endTime":2455.33,"body":"friends, and let's be each other's friends. And now"},{"startTime":2455.37,"endTime":2459.106,"body":"we're super, super, super tight, so everybody"},{"startTime":2459.138,"endTime":2462.8,"body":"should do that. I feel very strongly. I love that. Which of your"},{"startTime":2462.84,"endTime":2466.352,"body":"books are you most proud of or fond of? I'm not gonna ask you. Which"},{"startTime":2466.376,"endTime":2470.064,"body":"one's your favorite? I think Book"},{"startTime":2470.152,"endTime":2473.6,"body":"two, which was the book that I struggled the"},{"startTime":2473.64,"endTime":2477.168,"body":"most with, with Self Doubt. I actually almost didn't publish"},{"startTime":2477.184,"endTime":2480.832,"body":"it because I was so convinced that it was terrible and that"},{"startTime":2480.856,"endTime":2484.4,"body":"people would hate it and there was nothing redeeming about it. And now it's most"},{"startTime":2484.44,"endTime":2488.16,"body":"people's favorite in the series, you know, I really got in my head,"},{"startTime":2488.2,"endTime":2491.472,"body":"especially after I released the first book, did better than I was expecting it to"},{"startTime":2491.496,"endTime":2494.81,"body":"do. And I thought this book's gonna ruin it."},{"startTime":2494.93,"endTime":2497.722,"body":"Everybody's gonna read the second book and say, oh, she, you know, was a one"},{"startTime":2497.746,"endTime":2501.482,"body":"hit wonder. She can't actually write. And so I"},{"startTime":2501.506,"endTime":2505.242,"body":"think overcoming that self doubt and publishing it anyway, you know, they say do"},{"startTime":2505.266,"endTime":2508.11,"body":"it scared. I very much did that scared."},{"startTime":2508.93,"endTime":2512.17,"body":"And everybody loved it. It was a really well received"},{"startTime":2512.29,"endTime":2516.026,"body":"book. So I always think about that now when I'm"},{"startTime":2516.058,"endTime":2519.752,"body":"feeling doubt or worried that I'm going the"},{"startTime":2519.776,"endTime":2523.288,"body":"wrong direction with my books. I think I just need to trust myself because I'm"},{"startTime":2523.304,"endTime":2527.032,"body":"the worst judge of what's going to be good. Obviously from"},{"startTime":2527.056,"endTime":2530.264,"body":"how I felt. That is so funny. Yeah. Book two, Glow of the Everflame, is"},{"startTime":2530.272,"endTime":2533.432,"body":"definitely my favorite in the series. So I'm so glad you didn't like keep that"},{"startTime":2533.456,"endTime":2537.0,"body":"to yourself. Me too. Thank you. What is"},{"startTime":2537.04,"endTime":2540.792,"body":"the latest news with the Kindred's Curse saga? There's a"},{"startTime":2540.816,"endTime":2544.232,"body":"lot going on. Books 1 and 2 just re released in print."},{"startTime":2544.296,"endTime":2547.69,"body":"Heat of the Everflame, which is the third book, re releases in"},{"startTime":2547.73,"endTime":2551.546,"body":"print on March 11th of this year."},{"startTime":2551.698,"endTime":2555.226,"body":"They're also available on ebooks and Kindle Unlimited"},{"startTime":2555.338,"endTime":2559.114,"body":"and the audiobooks are available on Audible. Book four, which is"},{"startTime":2559.122,"endTime":2562.842,"body":"what I know everybody really wants to know about, is in progress. I"},{"startTime":2562.866,"endTime":2566.41,"body":"don't have a release date just yet, but we have set one"},{"startTime":2566.45,"endTime":2570.106,"body":"internally. We're not talking about it or announcing it quite"},{"startTime":2570.138,"endTime":2573.696,"body":"yet because there's still things that could cause it to get pushed."},{"startTime":2573.858,"endTime":2577.556,"body":"But we're close. I'm very hopeful, fingers"},{"startTime":2577.588,"endTime":2581.0,"body":"crossed, that we will be able to announce something soonish."},{"startTime":2581.34,"endTime":2584.676,"body":"There's also some other super exciting stuff going on in the background that I cannot"},{"startTime":2584.708,"endTime":2588.5,"body":"talk about yet. But I think we are only at the beginning of"},{"startTime":2588.54,"endTime":2592.276,"body":"what this series can do. That is so exciting. And for the record,"},{"startTime":2592.348,"endTime":2596.116,"body":"I told her she didn't have to answer anything about book four. I know it's"},{"startTime":2596.148,"endTime":2599.86,"body":"what people want to know. So another thing people want to know because I asked"},{"startTime":2599.9,"endTime":2603.092,"body":"a couple of my friends if they had any questions. One that kept coming up"},{"startTime":2603.116,"endTime":2606.894,"body":"is who's your favorite book boyfriend? Who's not, because we all"},{"startTime":2606.902,"endTime":2610.398,"body":"know you love Henri, but who's not in the Kindred's Curse saga?"},{"startTime":2610.494,"endTime":2614.222,"body":"Easy. Aarin Warner from Shatter Me. Hands down, that's my husband. I"},{"startTime":2614.246,"endTime":2617.278,"body":"love him even though it's a YA book. So he's technically a child. But we're"},{"startTime":2617.294,"endTime":2620.83,"body":"just gonna look away from that part for a second here. If you like"},{"startTime":2620.87,"endTime":2624.446,"body":"Grumpy MMCs, I mean, he is the grumpiest, right?"},{"startTime":2624.598,"endTime":2628.446,"body":"This is a man who truly, genuinely hates"},{"startTime":2628.558,"endTime":2632.372,"body":"every person on the planet except for the girl he's in"},{"startTime":2632.396,"endTime":2635.764,"body":"love with. And he would do anything for her. She could, say, lay on the"},{"startTime":2635.772,"endTime":2639.076,"body":"floor and like, be a rug so I don't have to step in this puddle."},{"startTime":2639.108,"endTime":2642.804,"body":"And he would just do it, like, no problem. Absolutely. He'd probably do it"},{"startTime":2642.812,"endTime":2646.388,"body":"before she asked, just in case. But when it comes to anybody else, he cannot"},{"startTime":2646.404,"endTime":2650.18,"body":"stand them, does not care whether they live or die. He's so grumpy, it"},{"startTime":2650.22,"endTime":2653.908,"body":"makes him so much fun to read. I loved it."},{"startTime":2654.044,"endTime":2657.812,"body":"So I always joke that Luther, who's one of the love interests in my"},{"startTime":2657.836,"endTime":2660.89,"body":"book, that he is Aaron Warner, if he grew up and got"},{"startTime":2660.93,"endTime":2664.778,"body":"therapy, because he's essentially like that too,"},{"startTime":2664.834,"endTime":2668.522,"body":"right? He doesn't really care about anybody else except maybe a couple of people. But"},{"startTime":2668.546,"endTime":2672.234,"body":"when it comes to her, like, he'll do anything for her."},{"startTime":2672.402,"endTime":2675.594,"body":"So he's like, slightly more well adjusted than Aaron"},{"startTime":2675.642,"endTime":2679.37,"body":"Warner, but just slightly. I love that. That is hilarious."},{"startTime":2679.45,"endTime":2683.29,"body":"It's great. It's very YA like. It's, you know, there's no spice."},{"startTime":2683.37,"endTime":2687.11,"body":"And it's very much teen themes coming of"},{"startTime":2687.15,"endTime":2690.774,"body":"age. And the characters are very much teenagers, so you have to give them a"},{"startTime":2690.782,"endTime":2694.502,"body":"little bit of grace. Can't go into it as an adult expecting them"},{"startTime":2694.526,"endTime":2697.91,"body":"to make adult decisions because they're not their kids. But it's"},{"startTime":2697.99,"endTime":2701.542,"body":"fantastic. Dystopian series. It's really"},{"startTime":2701.566,"endTime":2705.382,"body":"good. Oh, man. Adding that to my list number, you know, 500 and"},{"startTime":2705.406,"endTime":2709.254,"body":"something, who knows? All right, last question for you. If"},{"startTime":2709.342,"endTime":2712.982,"body":"readers want to meet you in person in 2025, are they going to be able"},{"startTime":2713.006,"endTime":2716.84,"body":"to do that? Yes, there's lots of opportunities. In"},{"startTime":2716.88,"endTime":2720.584,"body":"mid February, I'm going on tour in the west coast, so I'll be in Seattle,"},{"startTime":2720.632,"endTime":2724.312,"body":"Portland, San Diego and la. And I can't remember the"},{"startTime":2724.336,"endTime":2728.152,"body":"exact date, so I want to say it's the 18th through the 24th,"},{"startTime":2728.216,"endTime":2731.96,"body":"something like that. And tickets are on sale for that right"},{"startTime":2732.0,"endTime":2735.288,"body":"now. And then I will be at several different"},{"startTime":2735.344,"endTime":2738.968,"body":"conferences through the remainder of the year. I will be at a PolyCon"},{"startTime":2739.064,"endTime":2742.718,"body":"in D.C. in April. I will be at Ready Set"},{"startTime":2742.774,"endTime":2746.142,"body":"Romance here in France in May."},{"startTime":2746.246,"endTime":2749.774,"body":"March, an M month, I can't remember which one, but an M month, I think"},{"startTime":2749.782,"endTime":2753.55,"body":"it's March. I will be at Rare London"},{"startTime":2753.71,"endTime":2757.422,"body":"in July. I think we are working on"},{"startTime":2757.446,"endTime":2760.83,"body":"a US and Canada tour in the summer. I don't have"},{"startTime":2760.87,"endTime":2764.686,"body":"dates or cities for that yet, but it's something that I'm"},{"startTime":2764.718,"endTime":2768.254,"body":"working on with my publisher. And then I'll be at Villains and"},{"startTime":2768.262,"endTime":2771.856,"body":"Vixens, which is a conference in Dallas in"},{"startTime":2771.928,"endTime":2775.232,"body":"September. So very exciting."},{"startTime":2775.376,"endTime":2778.832,"body":"Lots going on. Definitely. If you are at any of those"},{"startTime":2778.856,"endTime":2782.672,"body":"events, come find me. I love, love chatting with readers and"},{"startTime":2782.696,"endTime":2786.464,"body":"with other authors. I love that. Well, I just want to thank you so"},{"startTime":2786.472,"endTime":2790.0,"body":"much for joining me for talking. Not really about the books, but this"},{"startTime":2790.04,"endTime":2793.424,"body":"conversation. But I was so happy to hear that you were excited about this conversation."},{"startTime":2793.472,"endTime":2797.216,"body":"Yes, it's very refreshing to talk about the industry. I love shop"},{"startTime":2797.248,"endTime":2800.942,"body":"talk. Yeah. Well, thank you. And I cannot wait to see what comes"},{"startTime":2800.966,"endTime":2804.382,"body":"out in the future and, like, what the future holds for you. Thank you so"},{"startTime":2804.406,"endTime":2805.19,"body":"much. I appreciate it."}]}