South Asians Rising
Join us on a journey of empowerment! Here we discuss topics not often talked about due to fear of judgement and shame. Listen to South Asians share their powerful stories of overcoming challenges, rising above societal stigma and building resilience. Gain insights into mindset shifts and discover practical tips to navigate through difficult times. It's time we stop suffering in silence, this podcast hopes to encourage more openness and vulnerability within the South Asian community. Hosted by Andrea Sivani who is an accredited Transformational Life Coach passionate about self development.
South Asians Rising
S1 EP4 - Luxika Ellalan: Dealing with Discrimination at Work
Growing up as children of immigrants, most of us have had our fair share of cultural hurdles and identity crises. When it comes to career paths, many South Asians find career choice is often a collaborative family decision, overshadowed by generational fears and societal pressures. In this episode, Luxika shares her journey of pursuing her passion to become a lawyer, which defied the expectations set by her family at the time.
Listeners will hear about the challenges Luxika faced when forging her own career path and entering an industry notoriously known to lack ethnic minority representation. She brings to light the often subtle discrimination and microaggressions that occur in the workplace, and how she built the resilience and confidence to deal with this.
Hi everyone. Welcome to the South Asians Writing Podcast. Here we have guests come on sharing their stories of challenges that they've overcome. On today's episode we have Lexica. Welcome, lexica. Would you like to introduce yourself to anyone who is?
Speaker 2:Amazing. No, thank you so much, firstly for having me on this. I think it's a great, great initiative for just something to generate stories as it is. But yeah, I'm Lexica. Most people know me as Lexi as well. I work as a lawyer. I was born in London, extremely proud to be a Tamil person, and yeah, yeah, just you know that's me. Basically, I have a massive love for food, especially sweet things, which probably doesn't work in my favour.
Speaker 2:I have the biggest sweet tooth, which is weird because it's not like I even grow up with, like Tamil sweets and such I don't even know where. Every time it's probably my love for like cakes, which a lot of people know me for as well, I guess, my cakes. But yeah, that's me. So yeah, thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, thank you for being on. It's really really great to have you here. So, as you know, on this podcast we share stories, so my first question to you is going to be what is something really tough that you've faced in life and overcome?
Speaker 2:I think for me I probably picked my career, kind of getting to where I am in my career today. It's been one of the toughest journeys, I think for me, surely because I went for something very non-conventional within my family. My family were more focused on kind of maths, science and you know, the traditional medicine route. I think I realised very early on that wasn't for me so kind of multiple challenges along the way to kind of get to where I am. But yeah, I think my career overall probably is one of the toughest challenges I've actually faced till date.
Speaker 1:I can imagine because, like you said, right, growing up we have like career paths sort of given to us, like you either got to become a doctor, lawyer I mean lawyer was one of my ones, I don't know why you experienced, but okay like a prestigious career, right. So that itself like the pressure starts young for us, you know, like we have, and it really impacts a lot, like the GCSEs that we take, the A-levels that we take, it all is taken into consideration. It's taken into consideration of what we're expected to sort of become in our career. So I want to take you back to that time where you know you had these pressures to follow a set career path but you wanted to do something different. What was going through your mind at that time?
Speaker 2:I think a lot. You know when you, I think a lot of us, a lot of my friends especially a lot of us are children of immigrants. So you know, the first kind of clash I think I faced in my life was the culture clash that I grew up with. You know, your parents come from a completely different generation, a completely different country, a completely different culture, and you know they're pushing you to do really well at school, to really kind of shine in this new land that's also still unfamiliar to them in so many ways. But you go to school and then you're kind of handing the battle there on your own because you have to now fit into this new culture where a lot of the stuff you're not used to, you know, I don't know about other people, but for me when I was younger it was a big thing. I was like, you know I come home and for me, like, if I ask what's for dinner, and I still remember a really vivid phase when I was younger when I say to my mum, like what's for dinner? Specifically because I wanted to find out, why do we always have rice and curry for dinner? You know, like for my friends that's like a one on. Why do we have that every day?
Speaker 2:And it kind of haunts you, I think, your whole life, because you're almost I wouldn't say it is sort of kind of imposter syndrome, because you're trying to fit into this new culture that's been introduced to you, which your parents have no idea about really, because they're not used to that, but they also want you to retain the culture that you've been brought up in.
Speaker 2:And I think that culture clash itself really kind of. It really throws you, you know, because you don't know how to deal with it at such a young age and I think you know now especially, I'm so, so proud of my culture. But when you're that young it's really hard to grapple with it because all you want to do is just fit in. You know, like not fitting in with the crowd is so cool now, but it really wasn't back then. And if you don't fit in then then you are the weird person who's got all these weird quirks. And whatever I saw celebrating my culture like I would still tell you know, whether it was like Udi Pongkot that Amma made me for lunch or whatever it was I would still take it into school, and I think back then itself I was sort of starting to battle that and be like you know what.
Speaker 2:No, this is my culture and I'm going to stand proudly by it.
Speaker 2:And I think, you know, even when going like deciding what I would like to say. You know, gcses, a-levels, they all determine what career paths you then go down as well, and for me, I think, when I was deciding those things, that's why I also decided to switch for sixth form, because my parents, like you know, this school seems more focused on maths and science and in my next culture clash because you're going in, I went to a private school for sixth form and in a private school it's a very, very different culture to what I was used to, you know, because it was really difficult for my parents to put me through that, and they did it because they wanted to give me the best education they could. But you know, my parents were made of generational wealth and they didn't come with, you know, heaps of money when they came to this country either. So then you're trying to fit in with this new crowd, and it's always a struggle trying to fit in, and then you know, it's a whole new battle then when you get to a workplace.
Speaker 1:But hey, so, yeah, I think we'll get on to that.
Speaker 2:It was always just kind of that battle was always going well, you know.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I completely resonate with that. I'm very similar to you, so I actually I also went to a private school and I actually had the best years in my life at private school. It was amazing. I wouldn't change a thing about it, but I did feel in the back of my mind some elements of like okay, how do I balance my traditional cultural values and expectations and pressures with the westernized values and the way society is there? And you're trying to fit into a new school and make new friends and luckily I had amazing friends who didn't pressure me to do anything. But I definitely felt that, and then not only that being in a school which was predominantly consisting of white people, right and then you're like a brown person and you're one of a few. You definitely feel it, and even my name so my surname is like super long, because obviously I should have her name.
Speaker 1:But like in assemblies, registrations and things like that, people wouldn't think you know that it would affect me, but actually, like teachers stumbling on my name, stuttering about not knowing how to say it, and in front of the entire class, sometimes in front of the entire school, it does make you feel a certain way because you stand out right and like eventually it became like a running joke and you know I got used to it.
Speaker 1:But deep down it did impact me subconsciously because it made me feel like I was different and I didn't fit in. And I just wanted to say one more thing about the food. I remember going to school, like in my primary school, and everyone would be like no school lunch, like nobody eats for lunch. But I was like I freaking love it because it's something different. It's not rice and curry. I was like every day excited to see what was going to be at school lunch because there's a chance to have some difference. So completely resonate with you there about the culture clash and finding where you fit and also what your identity is. It took me a long time to figure out my identity.
Speaker 2:Completely agree. I think, like that's the thing, like identity is such a big thing, I think, especially for children whose parents weren't born here, and for you like, who are you? Like? That it's a really, really big question to like battle with. And I think now I've figured out parts of me, but I am still figuring out like who I am as a person. You know, what am I carrying on from my culture? What am I carrying on that I've kind of decided for myself.
Speaker 2:And there is so much, there is so much that's packed within our culture which is rooted in possibly kind of patriarchal values or values just which just didn't sit well with me. Because I was very kind of headstrong, very much like when I was young. I still remember having conversations with my mom where I said you know, when I get married I am going to be the breadwinner of the family, blah, blah, blah. And you know, for my mom she's looking at me like these kind of things are so new to her because it wasn't kind of what she was brought up kind of hearing. And I was just known within my family for always kind of just voicing what I thought. I never thought twice about it, or kind of just doing the opposite to the norm. I almost started thriving off doing the opposite to what was kind of expected in my culture.
Speaker 2:So, like identity is, I think so many people I know are still battling with it and I don't think we give ourselves enough compassion or leeway for it either. You know, it's not an easy thing at all and so many of us are so harsh on ourselves and I think the fact that, like you're taking even steps to try and discover that part of yourself, that itself is something you should give yourself credit for. You know you're not trying to just stumble along and you're really trying to give yourself credit, the culture you came from credit, and trying to amalgamate all of that and figure out where you fit in. All that big jigsaw is a big thing. So, yeah, could I say that again?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. And I think also, as you discover yourself, you may find that certain things that you align with or you know that you value and desire in life goes against the grain of societal expectations of you, right? So, like, how do you navigate through that? How do you still be your authentic self and honor your needs and desires? But be okay with maybe going against what is expected of you? Which brings me on to my next question Can you decide to follow an alternative career path? What was that like telling your family that and you're relative that you're actually going to go down a different career path?
Speaker 2:I think so. I was very fortunate in the sense that my parents were very much whatever you decide to do in life, you just need to become the best at whatever it is. That was always the kind of principle they brought up the other with. But I think more than my mum, it frightened my dad, I'd say, and when I was younger I'd really struggled to understand why. But I think now that I've grown up more I'm able to empathise with his position, which he was in at the time, and when my dad first came to his country he had a degree.
Speaker 2:He could speak English. I wouldn't say it was like he wasn't like a native speaker as such, but he could speak English and he could definitely get through in a job. But he was rejected from so many places, saying your English isn't good enough, or if it was the fact that he was a brown person applying for the job, and I think those fears really were deeply ingrained in him and he never wanted his children to then have to go battle out for jobs and his eyes. If you were a medic, you'd kind of always be employed in some way or another. You'd always have a job. My husband will probably disagree with me now. I'm like no, that's not the case for all medics now.
Speaker 2:I guess that was the kind of thought that he had in his head. And I clearly remember this one day when because my dad used to run post offices and one of his post offices was based in Chelmswood, which is a predominantly, I'd say, white area compared to, and there were very few brown people living there, and someone came to him and said you know, he, my dad, said to me my daughter's trying to become a lawyer.
Speaker 2:I was only 14 or 15 at the time, I think and this person basically said to him you know she will struggle, it is a predominantly male dominated industry and, as a South Asian female, she will probably struggle. The person wasn't wrong. They weren't genuinely, I think, trying to determine or put me off or say I didn't belong there, but they were trying to alert my dad kind of the struggles I would face ahead. They were completely right about it because I did face those struggles ahead. But then my dad came in and said this to me and I think for a whole day I went to school and I told my best friends guys, I'm not doing law anymore, I'm going to do dentistry.
Speaker 2:But I was known as the girl that was always going to chase her career in law. You know, I had these big dreams were going to UN and everything, and maybe that's changed along the path of not working for the UN today. But I always thought I would be doing law and all of my friends knew me for that. And suddenly I came out saying I'm going to do dentistry instead. I was always in it for the money. As I'm not going to say it tonight at all, I just want to do it. I knew I was going to be well and then I could do whatever I wanted with that money, in terms of whether it was helping people or whether putting that money towards a good cause. I could do what I wanted with it. I wouldn't have to struggle in that sense. So my friends literally looked at me like you literally changed within a day, even though your whole life you've made decisions towards this career of yours. And then I think you know it took me a day. I went through it and then I came out at the end of it and I was like I can't, I can't switch like this. It feels like I've just introduced this like foreign object into my body and it's like my body is actually trying to get rid of. That's how alien the whole thought even felt to me to like go for a completely different career path and it just.
Speaker 2:I think it really showed me how much my dad didn't want me to struggle with the career path I was choosing, and kind of even after I did my degree and I don't know how many people know, but for lawyers here you have to do something called the LPC, which is like a good 16 grand that you almost spend to do this course and then do your training contract to then qualify as a lawyer here. My dad was like okay, so why don't I help you at least pay for this LPC, because then, if you pay for it, you might have better opportunities to train. And I think I really had to stand my ground and say no, like my career has to be on my terms. I have to decide which job I go for and I don't want to go for this career unless someone's going to pay me to go study this course as well. I mean, in the end I managed to get what I was aiming for, but I think the fact that your parents try and protect you purely because of their own experiences is something a you can't really control and v you are battling against. You know it was a complete no go for my parents if I was like I'm going to go to university and study I don't know history, or like PPE, which I both courses I was really, really interested in, but because no one knew what the career path was after that and at the time they hadn't heard of anyone do like a nonlaw subject and then do the conversion and then become a lawyer After I went to university, we realized how common it was, and almost 50% of lawyers hadn't even done a law degree.
Speaker 2:But I think, because of something just so unknown to South Asian parents, especially Tamil parents you know, I can't even blame them because, you know, tomorrow, when I have my own kids, there's a chance that they're going to bring up something that I have no idea about. I will only fear it, and it does take a level of acceptance from their own part, and I do really appreciate the fact that my parents at least came halfway along the journey with me to say, okay, you know what? We appreciate that you're going for this now. So how can we now help you best with it? Yeah, it is a, it's a battle and it is really. It genuinely, where I look at, it's a really beautiful journey that you go on with the with your parents, because they have grown part of the stereotypes they've grown up with and you've sort of helped them out of that, and then you've had to also grow a bit further as well, so you can keep moving them along almost as you go further as well in this weird and wonderful place that we call London.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, Exactly, and it's really down to you know. They only know what they know right and they're coming from their experiences, from their generation and what they face, and they're just coming from a place of protection because they don't want us to go through it.
Speaker 1:So you, can't really blame them because they only know what they know. I faced a similar thing when I was deciding what to study for my degree. I ended up doing pharmaceutical chemistry, with in mind to then switch over to medicine. But I don't like chemistry. I didn't want to do it, but I felt like I had to do something like science based and like follow that career path.
Speaker 1:But then it was like coming towards the end of the first year and I thought to myself, no, like my heart is in psychology, I want to be a psychologist. Like I want to do this. And back then it wasn't really well known at all, right, and like some universities didn't even do it. So I remember like telling my parents I wanted to do that and they were like, oh my gosh, no, like what is this you know? Like this is not going to, where's that going to take you? And it got to a point where my brother had to sort of like step in and like speak to them and kind of convince them or like show them it's not such a bad idea.
Speaker 1:And he ended up doing that. And then they got on board. And then once I was going through it and they saw that I was excelling in that degree and then the possible career path back then I wanted to be a psychologist. I changed my mind after, but that's another story. But yeah, they became really supportive. So once they knew about it and it wasn't such a scary, unknown, uncertain thing, yeah it helps them open their eyes to see.
Speaker 1:so I completely see what you mean. So when you started your career and you were started to follow your, did you face any challenges around like belonging in that career or any challenges in general? So many points.
Speaker 2:I think my story of law school. When I went for my first, we started this thing called group study sessions, so they were the really important things. It's okay if you miss a lecture, but you couldn't miss these things. And I think one of the first things I said was I mean, it was a dream then and it still is a dream, I guess, when it materialize and I don't know. But I said I want to become a lawyer because I want to go work in the UN and I wanted to go work in the UN because I wanted to voice what happened to my people back home and my kind of tutor looked him in, quite literally said to me that's not going to happen and so really shut down. And I think I was the only female in that class and you don't know why someone is saying this to you and it does make you think because none of the other guys like ideas got shut down and why they wanted to become lawyers. And also because it's almost like I just didn't feel like the reason.
Speaker 1:I said I'd been validated, almost, and it's maybe it interrupts you, but when you heard her say that, what did you feel? Like what went through?
Speaker 2:your mind that I'm not in. I maybe shouldn't, even I shouldn't be here, like I've genuinely made a mistake. It's not kind of where I belong. I should just done what you know a lot of my peers are doing, whether it was studying medicine and like places where more of my I would have seen more of more people like me almost. You know the fact that we come from a background where you know, genocide did happen. Our people were chased out of their homes, their like countries and everything. It is a part of me.
Speaker 2:So it's hard, I think, sometimes going into workplaces where the people surrounding you don't understand the impact that has on the kind of background that you've grown up with. If that makes sense, yeah, 100%. You know I think I've said this to you before when we've caught up. But like microaggressions are something that I learned to, but I only discovered that I'd experienced it during my training contract. I was very fortunate that where I worked we had something which was an ethnic diversity network and it was great to share kind of stories and you know experiences with other people from like ethnic minority backgrounds and when they explained what microaggressions were I was genuinely like, oh, I've had this, like I've faced this. So why is it like? How have I not realized? And it's because you almost I was.
Speaker 2:This concept was like so new to me, but it resonated so much with me that microaggressions aren't necessarily someone you know, hardcore in your face, being like you're brown, you can't do this, or whatever it is, but they're like smaller things that you face on like a daily basis. But every time it happens it just cuts and cuts, and cuts and then by the end of it you're looking at your arm and you're like I've got 10 cuts on my arm. That's not a normal thing, right One cut. You might be like I was. It's only one thing, but it all adds up eventually and you know there were things like my parents really struggled to even take me on holiday. So if someone looks at me and they're like it's so weird that your parents never took your camping, it might not sound like a big deal to most people, but it really puts into perspective that someone is judging you for the way your parents brought you up, that your parents aren't normal because they never taught you what camping was, and I'm like I'm sorry, but because my parents' priority was trying to make sure AI knew where they were from, for example, take me back to Sri Lanka. It wasn't cheap to go back to Sri Lanka, for example, and where possible they really worked their ass up to be able to take me to Europe or show me somewhere else, and I'm sorry that they aren't aware of what the concept of camping necessarily is.
Speaker 2:Or when you went into work and someone looked at me, I think we were doing like a bake off or something and I have done my fair share of baking. You know I've done cakes professionally and stuff, so I know what English desserts can be. But if you look at me and you give me a weird look because I don't know what a pavlova is, should I look at you and be like, do you know what udiopam is? And if you don't, are you with them? Because you don't pay to my culture? And it's that kind of ignorance of people because they're not willing to. And it's crazy because we live in a city which is very multicultural.
Speaker 2:So for us you don't think you're gonna face it. And or when you're on the train and you know Caucasian persons like child, they won't let their child smile at you because you are brown. Or when you're sitting on the train and you are seeing someone making racial comments about someone else and you have a fear and you're like, do I jump in? At that point, do I jump in? And then do I get in the middle of the crossfire. There are so many thoughts that go through your head at 30 points right, and I think for me kind of, because the industry I was going into was so heavily, you know it was known that you were either kind of Oxford educated or, you know your parents came from like a family. You came from like a family of lawyers, so someone could pull a favor for you here and there and getting a trading contract was ridiculously difficult. I was almost, you know, churning out applications as if it was a full-time job and because a lot of the time I'd like make it to like, for example, an assessment center. It was a final stage, and when you don't get any feedback which I appreciate almost you know people from any background it can happen too. But when you don't get any feedback and you already come from a background where you're not used to this industry, one of the first things that will cross your mind is do I not belong here because I'm brown, or do I not belong here because there's no one else that looks like me? When you don't see any senior, like people in that position, the position that you're aspiring to get to one day, it is so hard to imagine yourself there. And you know, then it's so hard to sit there and not question yourself and whether you actually belong in that career path or in that industry or whatever it might be. And it is so easy, I think, to it is, I mean, so easy for you to immediately convince yourself you know what. I don't belong here, I should give up, and I think this goes for anything, whether it's you know our people wanting to become entrepreneurs, or whether you want to go into a field that just hasn't been tapped into. Just it is really hard to imagine yourself in that situation, get yourself through that career, but you belong here just as much as the next person sitting next to you, and I think that's the way I look at it now, like I belong here just as much as you, and one of the things I think I am proud of myself for is I didn't give up. I refused to give up unless I knew I'd exhausted almost every single avenue possible. And if I really believe that I belong in that place, regardless of who else might be there, I just don't care, I'm gonna keep going.
Speaker 2:And I think that is one of the biggest things I say to anyone around me, like if you really believe that you're meant to be in that industry doing that job, then you go for it.
Speaker 2:No one is allowed to tell you that you don't belong there because we're in 2024 now and if people can't get over their own apprehensions or their own stereotypes of you know people from your ethnicity, then that's on them and it's not an issue that you should have to carry with you kind of going forward Like if you are, like, if you know, I've at so many points felt like I was being, you know, excluded or I was being, you know like being treated different during my training, but just because of kind of the ethnicity I was from. And I still found amazing kind of allies from friends who work Caucasian as well, who really took an effort to understand the background I was from, so you will find people like that along your path and those who don't. I think it's almost like there is no. I think the way I look at life now, anyways, is there's never gonna be a success story without a struggle, so I almost think it is like you're the struggle that's coming my way, which means I'm definitely heading in the direction of success.
Speaker 1:then If you're going my way.
Speaker 2:You're gonna give me a second, I'm definitely gonna send, like that right, and like you know, when I speak to my husband, who is a doctor, there are those, these same fears that I have, even though you know medicine, especially now, is a lot more heavily dominated, I think, by people of ethnic minorities. There are still these same issues there as well, and I think it's made me realize that I used to think law was very special in that sense that law was the only industry where you were gonna face it, and I mean, given in many areas it's still very heavily like white male dominated, but it's there, is space for us as well, and I think, even if you have to push extra hard to find that space and get your way in, just like, do it, because you'll always regret, I think, never trying, and I think if I hadn't ever given law a chance as a career, I would have always been left thinking like, oh, what would have happened if I had? What if? Yeah, and I think for you know, there are gonna be many nodes.
Speaker 2:There were so many rejections I faced along the way I don't know how many of them were genuinely because they thought I wasn't fit for the job or because I didn't look like the person that they wanted. But and I think another thing that I also try to do now is the people that I try to look up to. I've changed that image, so I specifically look up to people, I think, who are from my background, and I don't care if that's limited or not, because the inspiration that I need to drive myself forward, I think I get plenty from the people that are from my background. I have really made it well through all this struggle. But, sorry, I think I've gone on to answer more than what you just asked.
Speaker 1:No, no, thank you, that was. Thanks for sharing all of that. I think what you said is really insightful, and one thing that I wanted to comment on was when you are forging your own career path and then you're faced with people that are planting seeds of doubt in you, right, like you experienced that when they said that you couldn't really do it, and then you see it's mailed on with a different fashion. I think it's hard as it is to deal with that, but then there's an added layer of oh my gosh, I'm brave by forging my own career path and going against the expectations, and now that I've done that, I'm experiencing this and they're basically telling me I don't belong here. I think that adds another extra level of stress and doubt. Right, and it could be easy to just like run back into okay, I'll just do what I'm told, and it was silly for me to even think that. So the fact that you never gave up and you persevered through, I want to tap into that and I'd love to hear some tips and maybe your mindset around that Before we get into that.
Speaker 1:I honestly, I don't really know much about microaggression. I don't really know what signs to look for when it comes to discrimination. Fortunately, I haven't really experienced any explicit discrimination, but, like you, I don't know if I've experienced implicit microaggression and discrimination that I just haven't. I didn't even know it was. So what I'd love to do is ask you about that. Do you have some like typical examples that you could share with us of what that looks like? You know discrimination, microaggression, just because, like if people like me out there don't really know what to look for, it would be good to understand that a bit more.
Speaker 2:So I think the way that microaggression was introduced to me is it's kind of small things like, for example, to give you kind of examples that I was sort of taught almost to introduce you to this world of. Okay, there is this other side. I think the reason it was introduced is because so many people go through micro aggressive place Sorry levels of discrimination which aren't kind of explicit forms of discrimination. So then they kind of go. I mean, that person isn't telling me that I'm brown, so I'm blah blah or you know they're not saying something explicitly about me as such because of my color, but it's other things that they will comment on. Which kind of are things that make you different? So, for example, someone Might comment on the fact that your hair is different to what a normal Caucasian person's hair might be, for example, the fact that like your hair is like if we've got like really thick hair or like, for example, someone takes in food, that is different making comments.
Speaker 1:Sorry, can I just say. When you said hair, I immediately thought oh my god, my mustache. I have like a flashback of like being in school. Oh god, yeah, okay now I understand, okay, cool.
Speaker 2:It's things that I think which you don't Very normal, or the fact that like someone makes you. Like I was at school, one of my earliest kind of memories was being made to feel like an outsider because I had never watched a film Greece.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You really do feel like there's something wrong with you, because you don't know what they're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, like you, grew up watching Greece and bro, I would brought watching body above a god's end. You know there's a difference.
Speaker 2:It's just like what classics and different cultures, and I Really think you know now that our generation has kind of like grown up and our generation's like to have kids and stuff it is really down to because, I mean, I'm talking about obviously being coming from like a pummel background, but there are other cultures our kids should also be appreciative of that. Try learn another culture whenever you can and Don't be the person that your mom or dad had to go, had to, like you know, suffer from as a result in school, and I think that's something I'm very hell about, that I think I hope I will instill on my own kids. But it's things like that, you know, because they do cut deep, and the fact that you know I'm not 28 and this happened to me when I was what, 11 or 12, the fact I still remember it it just goes to show how much it makes you really question your culture or like your identity. But you know, I'm not the expert, though, on microgressions, so this kind of just I was interesting and I was working and it was a really lovely lady within the ethnic diversity network that introduced me to this whole concept and I was just amazed, and there are people that goes through way way worse than I think I have.
Speaker 2:But again, it's just always having the doubt of whether you should even you know Consider whether you can even acknowledge the fact that this is happening to you, almost, and to kind of just be like no, it's not okay or whatever it might be that you want to say against it.
Speaker 2:But sometimes the acknowledging stage itself I feel like so many of us don't do because, a we're not aware and b we're just, we're almost kind of conditioned to think it's kind of normal, like I am brown, so I am a minority, so I kind of have to just listen to and just put up with it. And I'm now at stage where I'm like like no, I was also born here. So like why, why do I have to put up with something you know? When you don't have, you don't have to go through those same struggles, why do I have to go through it? Um, so it is, it's. It is a really really tough one, I think, and it is again a part of, like, your identity, how much you are trying to forge that for yourself and how much of it you're trying to carry through for yourself.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it is, it's a learning process, I think, definitely for sure, and I think also what you just said there when it is happening to you and you don't know how to acknowledge it. I think another element to that is Most of us grow up as people pleases right, like when things upset us or like somebody older than us Says something that's quite helpful to us. We're kind of taught not to like speak back or stand up for ourselves. So when you're now taking that and put it, putting it into a situation where you're in a professional environment and you know it's nothing to do with your family or culture, it's like your career, and you're having that same experience with somebody sort of talking down to you, your instant reaction is to just not say anything and just accept it. But it's about breaking that and actually Starting to stand up for yourself, because it's not okay to have somebody make you feel that way. Right, your feelings are valid. So it's really important to firstly become aware Of what microaggression is and what discrimination is, to understand if you are in that predicament and then, secondly, to build the courage and confidence to stand up for yourself and speak up about it.
Speaker 1:And I know like for me I struggle with that. I I'm a lot better than I was before, but definitely in my early career days I I almost sort of saw myself as like okay, I'm lucky to be here, so let me just like put up with whatever right. And I never used to speak up about things and I'm just naturally like I'm quite a jokie person. I can laugh at myself and I don't really take things too seriously when people like joke about me. But you know, I'm sure there have been times where I felt like that was a little bit of a bell, like oh, that was a little like.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure how I feel about that comment, but yeah exactly, exactly, and it's those moments, I think that really, you think, actually I'm not sure if that kind of goes well, you know the line that I thought we always had, like there's a certain Don't cross, um, and sometimes you know you you'd be surprised because it's the people that you are really close to as well. I've had it again when I was at school. You know, sometimes, like friends of mine who I thought, like whenever say anything that I would feel offended by, and I did feel offended by if, like friends, ever took the piss up the dancing that I did because it was a like, brother Nightingale is a very it's a, it's a dance that's very rooted in culture and it's got like certain Structural ways that we do certain things and it's not, as I don't say, it's not maybe some people might not find it as entertaining as like Bollywood, for example, and you know to like be, then like to for some to take a mick out of you, for that almost it's like. It's okay if you don't understand, that is absolutely fine. And there are other cultures that I might not understand something about, but it's not okay to then not try find out something about it at least, but just take the piss out of it instead. And I think that goes for you know us as well, like I'm, like I'm always trying now, like, if I do meet someone from a different culture, tell me more, because I don't know anything about it and I want to know. Yeah. Or, like you know when oh, the worst one, when someone tries to shorten your name because they don't know how to. Yeah, it's not okay.
Speaker 2:You know, I decide if I want to introduce myself as Luxie or Luxa Cat, and I think you know when, even like me and you met, like when we were when she's speaking, you actually asked me. You know how would you like me to refer to you? And you're like, you're not even someone with a different background, you're still checking. It's courtesy to always check, yeah, you don't know, like, where that person drew the boundaries for their nicknames and you know what other names they might have, and it is just rude to, I think, assume.
Speaker 2:But I do want to say that you know I have had very pleasant experiences as well where I have taken in, you know, like food from home or like sweets from home or whatever it might be. And you know colleagues have genuinely cherished the fact that I'm bringing in parts of my culture for them to try out, and moments like that genuinely uplift me in ways I cannot even describe. And I say this because we aren't the only other ethnic minority in you know an office, right? So I say this open up our black people as well. And it really saddens me when I see you know someone who is from an ethnic minority put down another ethnic minority, and I'm like, oh, we're all fighting the same battle here, and if we don't at least try help each other out, then we really can't expect someone who's from the majority to then try and make any sort of change.
Speaker 2:And I think in that sense, like you know, especially like we spend so much time at the workplace, and I think, like us ourselves, we can also make it inclusive for other people, and I mean that in kind of every way possible.
Speaker 2:It's something that I think we I myself, I do try actively do wherever possible, because I don't want I don't want to completely be, I don't want this to be oblivious to the fact that, even though we are sometimes on the receiving end of it, I have seen enough of our people be on the giving side of it as well.
Speaker 2:So that is okay either right, and I think it's also about making sure that we do acknowledge the kind of if we aren't the ones that are the target of it, we are in a privileged position, I think, compared to someone that is at the kind of receiving end of it. So, yeah, I think, especially because every generation after us as well is all is also going to try and go into a field, and law still is not the most diverse industry possible. There are still so many issues that I think generations after me will try will have to face. But it is about, you know, slowly, like you said, it's always about planting the seeds so that it is something that for future generations it will become easier, rather than completely kind of ignoring that this issue even exists, so that it just remains the same for the next generation to come as well.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think you know our generation is starting to break cycles and starting to be more open and wanting to change the narrative on things. So I think you know we are heading in that direction. Thank you for sharing your journey so far, like it's. I think it's such an important topic because a lot of us go through things like this and I love how strong-minded and resilient you are. So I want to tap into that right now. If somebody else out there is kind of going through what you went through, so let's say they've been brave enough to forge a new career path for them and but they're finding it a bit difficult. Maybe it's like not what they expect it to be. Or maybe there are people within their profession that are planting seeds and out into them and they're in that limbo where it's like, oh, was this the right thing? Should I have done it? Should I speak up for myself? But I'm a bit afraid. What advice or tips do you have for them?
Speaker 2:Oh, where can I start A? Firstly, don't give up on it. You know I'm I would eventually love to one day go into business. I think that's not even a career path that I am fully aware of, other than the business like my dad ran. But if you really believe and I should tell myself this way more often but if you really do believe that you can genuinely succeed because of the skills that you have or the passion you have for that job, and just because you don't see someone else in that position doesn't mean you can't become the person that become. That is that person for someone else in the future. And it's okay because it is a. It is a really, really scary path, I think, to follow, like I trained in house, for example, rather than training at a law firm, which was again another scary thing because no one I knew had gone through that route. But it's okay because you can be the person that's bearing that torch and saying you know what. Someone else can follow my footsteps as well.
Speaker 2:But I think if all of us constantly say like, no, like, why should I take the risk? Or why me kind of thing, then it will never, ever change and I'm a big, big person of believing that one person is enough to change things for a hundred people almost. You know it sometimes only takes one person to do that and I think you know, come to the point of you saying, like, if someone is going through that, I'm genuinely sorry. I like, I really hope that things are changing in a positive way, that fewer of us are having to go through any sort of you know, discrimination at work. I think I'm fortunate now that I'm at a place in my own life where I can actually, you know, work with people who are great and actually do appreciate my culture for what it is as well. But I know what it's like, obviously, to go through the peaks and troughs to get to that eventually.
Speaker 2:And I think Sometimes, if you're not comfortable with things, speaking up, no one can force you to ever do that. It is your story to share and no one else can take that away from you. But just know that you belong there just as much as the other person. So it's okay to speak up for yourself and just voice that. You're not trying to bring anyone down. At the end of the day you're just trying to say like I'm not okay with this and it's not making me feel great. You are allowed to say it because you spend a lot of time at work. Work takes up the majority of our week, so it's really important that that is the place that helps us still be the best version of ourselves.
Speaker 2:And the only thing I think I can say is just don't ever doubt yourself, because what someone ever says to you and I think this is something that I think actually what's for my brother, who said this to me when I had a difficult situation and he said what someone throws at you is always a reflection of themselves and it's not a reflection of you. So if someone is doubting your ability to be somewhere in a job because of A I mean for me, a I'm a female and B I'm South Asian, that's their apprehensions and it's their doubts, their stereotypes, their background. That's all playing into that. And I don't owe someone the education and I think, especially when I was a part of that it's like diversity network. That was a really key thing that someone taught me that you don't owe anyone the education that they should kind of seek out for themselves. You can guide people in that direction, but you don't owe anyone. You don't need to be.
Speaker 2:You can't blame yourself because they haven't taken upon themselves to educate them about where you're from or who you are, or something as basic as your name.
Speaker 2:You don't owe that to anyone and it's up to the other person to be like OK, how do I pronounce your name?
Speaker 2:Is this right when pronouncing your name, for example? And you shouldn't feel like you're putting someone and I used to feel that a lot Like oh my God, I'm asking too much of someone if I asked them to say my name, right, and how can I ask them to say my name Because it's a Sri Lankan, I mean, my, my son is actually very sure about six letters, so it's not actually that bad, but I'm, yeah, six letters, but I know when you find it, so I'm not going to feel guilty because they're like I feel bad that I'm making them kind of say this whole thing and it's like no, my son is my pride and you do like you should be giving it the same kind of respect that I give yours, for example. You know, and I think always if you are, if you especially when you are proud in that sense always stand by that and help people, I think, understand your culture and where you're from, but you don't owe it to anyone as an apology in an apologetic way. It's not make sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah definitely.
Speaker 1:I think it's it's also like that's a really good point that you may like help people to understand, because I think you know you do get your the people that know what they're doing and doing it intentionally. But there are a lot of people that just genuinely don't realize how they're coming across or the impact it has on what they're saying. And I think another thing that I always try to remember myself is like everybody's looking through their own lens, right? So I'm looking through life at a lens. You are doing the same, they're doing the same, and it's all based upon, like, our previous experiences, our beliefs and everything that we've been through. So it's shaped the way that our lens is focusing.
Speaker 1:So when somebody is planting seeds of doubt into you or like doubting your capabilities, they're just looking through their own lens and basing it on their own experiences. So you don't need to take that and put it in your pocket and believe that that's the gospel truth, right. Like you get to decide what you bring to the table and if you don't have enough skills, fine, you can learn it. Like it's not a dead end, right. Like don't take on board what other people say about you. Only you can say about you, and that's the truth, so I really liked what you said there.
Speaker 2:I think your culture is new to carry and the pride you have, your culture is definitely something that you can happily carry. Whether it feels like a weight for you or not I can't obviously comment on. But someone else's apprehensions and what they throw at you is definitely something you don't need to carry. And I've been in, you know, I've had that in the past, like when I was at, whether it was at university or school or wherever else it was, and you don't. Yeah, you shouldn't have to carry that for them. So you do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, love that self empowerment. Thank you so much, like Sika, for sharing your story and your advice. I think it's been really insightful and I've actually learned stuff myself from this conversation, so really happy to have had you on. If somebody's listening in and it's resonated with them and maybe they're going through a similar situation, is it OK if they like reach out to you just to kind of talk about it or hear us more? Are you cool with that?
Speaker 2:More than fine, absolutely fine. My my page is on Instagram and not hard to find at all. They literally just my whole name. So type me in and always with your free drop me message. I'm more than happy, especially if you're trying to become a lawyer. Man, hit me up. We need more people in my industry.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, absolutely fine with me. Love that. Ok, I'll put your details in the description box. Thank you once again for today's episode. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you to everyone who's been listening. Hope you've got something from this. If something did particularly resonate with you, do leave a comment and let us know, and if anyone else would like to participate in the show and have a story to share, do reach out to me. I'm opening up season two guests now, so I would love to hear from you. And thanks. Have a nice day everybody. Thank you.
