Redefining Wisdom

Ep. 058 - Gavin Stone - Former Spy Reveals Secrets About Human Behavior

• Daniel Cianci

Share episode

Gavin Stone is a former security and intelligence covert specialist with over 20 years of applied experience. He has been deployed globally by government organizations such as the British Ministry of Defense, corporations, and high-net-worth VIPs. Stone is also a best-selling author and a world-renowned body language expert.

Body language is often misunderstood, leading to common mistakes in reading people. In this episode, former intelligence specialist Gavin reveals the biggest body language myths, how to detect deception, and how small shifts in movement and speech patterns can completely change perception.

Learn how to establish behavioral baselines, avoid misreading nervousness as lying, and use body language to influence trust and confidence. Gavin also shares insights into social media’s impact on perception, the psychology of influence, and even a chilling personal story from his career as a spy.

Want to master nonverbal communication? Watch now to uncover the secrets of body language experts!


In this episode, you'll learn:

  • The biggest body language misconceptions
  • Signs of deception & why single gestures don’t matter
  • How to build trust & influence others with nonverbal cues
  • What your body language reveals
  • The hidden power of words in shaping perception
  • Gavin’s scariest moment as a spy
  • Plus much more 


Don’t miss out—subscribe for more expert insights!


Follow Gavin:

  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gavin-stone-146ab1240/
  • Books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B015HWIKGG
  • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gavin_stone1/
  • X: https://x.com/AuthorGavin



Let's Connect.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danielmcianci/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/DanielMCianci

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@redefiningwisdom

Email: https://www.redefiningwisdom.com/contact-2/

Website: https://www.redefiningwisdom.com/

Gavin as a former security and intelligence cover specialist an expert in body language what are people's
biggest misconceptions about body language or reading body language the biggest misconception is one simple
thing and that's thinking that everything applies to everybody and it doesn't what works for one person is
completely different for another so one person might be comfortable F folding their arms and do it regularly and it
means absolutely nothing for somebody else else who doesn't fold their arms regularly it might be a sign of being
defensiveness and it's all about learning what that person um what their
Baseline is and looking for change okay so in that sense right and
and I understand everyone is different everyone has a different mannerism everyone learn different
behaviors but how can we get better at
at separating or understanding that even though as you
said somebody conquers their arms and they might be just B because they don't know what to do with their arms some
other ones might be very defensive how can we tell when somebody is defensive or or just how can we have
a better read on the other person so the biggest and most important thing to do
is to Baseline that person in the environment that they're in and that means to find out what's normal for them
at that time look for any normal behavior normal things they do if it's somebody that kind of rubs their chin
every few minutes then that is normal for them as soon as you know all the normal things then something stands out
when it's abnormal and those are the signs that you're looking for and that's when the the reads are going to get
easier does that make sense yes so I think my understanding or based on what
I understood from what you said is just establish a Baseline what what the other person behaviors are
and then but then it has to be I'm assuming in a very relaxed environment because if you're right away are in a
high stakes environment or something let's say you are in a negotiation or
something like that it is almost hard to establish a baseline because the other person might have certain emotions it
could be anxiety it could be fear it could be frustration right from the get-go and it's like a little
bit it's a little bit harder to establish that Baseline well there's a lot of talk
about Baseline amongst body language experts and you know they do turn around and say you know look for what's normal
for them in a normal environment but as soon as you understand that a baseline deviates dependent upon the environment
then you can establish a baseline anywhere so for example your personal Behavior at home will be different to
your personal Behavior at work it'll be different to your personal Behavior if you're out drinking in a bar with the
lads which will be different again if you were in say a court of law so all
these areas where you will be you're still the same person but how you behave would be different as soon as you know
okay this is how that person behaves normally in a court of law this is how that person behaves normally in a bar
this is how they behave normally around their family you can just establish baselines that's contextual on the
environment so you can still establish the Baseline even in a high stakes situation but you have to say that
anything else that you learned previously like if you on a cruise and you established a baseline that Baseline
is gone and and you now look at a new Baseline if they're in a I know say a high stakes poker game and they're about
to lose their house on on the on a hand uh then that they would have a very different Baseline because they would
have different stress signals coming from their body hm that's actually very interesting and
I'm glad that you gave that example because I think that that could be in
itself one of the biggest misconceptions that well at least one that I had that
we have different I I wasn't aware that we had different baselines as you said it's something different when I'm at
home or when I'm with my family when I'm with friends or when I'm at work I have different there are different versions
of me it's not that I'm um I mean inauthentic but then there are some things some filters or some
things that that we carry and wear depending on the environment and if
somebody's trying to establish somebody's trying to judge me or to try to read me based on how I behave at home
rather when how I behave in at work then they might be able to tell okay he's
acting so differently but no it's the same person nothing has changed only the environment exactly
okay when it comes to this is I don't know if you going to to answer this
question because is something that fascinates me and and there was this there used to be this um TV show years
ago called Li to me which was about reading about a language having said

Detecting deception
that how do we know when somebody is deceiving us what is the tail or or or
or what are the Tails I guess so there are a few different things you can look for and what you what you have to bear
in mind here you remember when I was saying about like um there is no one SI fits all with this
um so you have to like I said look at what what's normal for that person what's abnormal for that person and then
on top of that it's not a single action that he's going to give anybody away so you can't turn around say oh he
scratched his nose so therefore he's lying or he touched his lips so therefore he's lying it doesn't work like that what we're looking for is a
cluster of a minimum of three abnormalities from their Baseline so for
example somebody might turn around and and give an answer to a question and as they do they look down their blink rate
increases dramatically um they might lick their lips they might fold their arms while they're doing then might took
their feet under the chair now these are all signs of discomfort combined so if they put their feet under the chair
which shows that they're uncomfortable they they've folded their arms which may indicate if it's not normal for them
that they are being defensive um they may have Li their lips or close their mouth or something along those lines or
touch their lips put all that together with something like a high blink rate and and looking away if they if they're
normally the kind of person that maintains eye contact UM and now they're looking away these are all things a
cluster of behaviors that you can turn around say okay there are a lot of red flags there what's going on why is that
why has that person's Baseline suddenly changed and you can look for many of them you can look for an increase in
speed uh in their in their communication so if they suddenly start talking fast or they suddenly talk even go the
opposite way and start talking slowly but clunky lots of s and um and that
kind of thing um Pitch change the the there are all these things that you can take into consideration and then combine
all of those and that then gives you an indication of something's different something's not right especially if
they've answered all the questions you know and they've gone you know for example you turn around and say somebody um did you have a good vacation last
week and they go yes you know did you get home and everything was fine yes did you get to work and was everything okay
when you got to work and they go well U yeah I suppose then all of a you go what was all that about you know what was so
it allows you to to like look at the movements listen to the actions listen to the words uh and then and then say
right that needs to be explored there was something there that wasn't quite right and I want to go further and
investigate that what do you say was very interesting because of the all the
insights about what it the different things that we do when we are
uncomfortable we're not in a position that it could be once again it could be out of fear it could be out of anxiety
we could be out of frustration it could be even trying to deceive the other person and I think that
deconstructing and translating those you know very subtle behaviors or
very subtle body language that the other person has give us a lot of information
but I do believe that we tend to I don't know if we tend to
ignore what the other person is doing or we basically misread the other
person in a sense that we think oh that person as you said was scratching their
nose but what if it what if I'm I'm just asham or something and then the other
person feels I'm lying to them just because or if I'm just looking straight into your eyes trying to convince you
about something you might believe I'm telling the truth but in reality I'm just trying to lie to you so is is is
there any once you have detect certain pattern is certain a way that we can tell when

Misreading body language
somebody when somebody's intentions are not are not in sync with what they're
saying yeah so look for um literally when you say in sync there that's that's the perfect word you know look for
actions that don't marry up with uh the words that are being said uh listen to the sentence structure as well and this
is one of the reasons why I can actually go into a court of law and and because unlike other body language experts I um
practice something that I've called CCA which is combined communication analysis so this is looking at statement analysis
psychology body language and all these disciplines and more put together to be able to an analyze a person so if for
example uh you say to somebody um I know have you seen my wallet and they go I
don't even know where you keep your wallet well they haven't said no they haven't said you know I've taken your
wallet or I haven't taken your wallet what they've done is they've deflected the actual question and then you're looking for the behaviors if they throw
their hands up you know and this doesn't really marry up with the kind of um normal actions for them so so it's as
much about the words that they're saying as what it is uh the way they're saying it um and and and look for does the
reaction kind of is it reflected upon the question so if I ask you like a
really insignificant question like um hey have you seen my bag you know put my put my bag somewhere and all of a sudden
you go what the hell are you on about why have I seen why and and all of a sudden whoa where did that come from
that in itself is is a massive red flag if somebody kind of flips out and and and starts going crazy over what really
is isn't a massive question there are other things you can look for words like
absolutely um is is one that for me catches my attention every single time or absolutely not um and what you do is
you just you think if if if somebody answered that question so hypothetically if I turn around and said um you know
did you kill the man last night that came into your house and somebody said absolutely not then you think okay if I
were to lower the severity and say would you if I you you know that same response
was given to me if I asked him if he wanted a coffee would it seem normal so I say you know would you want a coffee
and someone said absolutely not then you think well okay all you had to do is say no dude um so so you so so you look at
you look at the kind of the response and say you is is this actually the the right kind of response that I'm
expecting for you know the the question I'm asking um you know if you ask somebody if they killed somebody you're
listening for the word no not absolutely not

The power of words in deception detection
H you know what that is that is interesting and fascinating because I never thought about it but to me I think
so here's what I here's what I thought based on that
example if you're asking someone about something very very serious like do you
you know kill that person I right away even if I'm innocent
I'm going to get nervous for whatever reason it's almost like when the cups pull you over and you know that you have
everything all all your purpose you in riding check you have your driver's license your insurance all of that and
then you feel that kind of uh anxiety or fear or you're nervous
and then you start saying things that you don't even need to say just because of that moment so I wonder now obviously
those are extreme cases but I wonder if there is some
nuances in that sense when when you ask somebody a question that can
have deep and impactful implications in the future but based on their answer and
because of that is a high State question the person starts answering in a way that is not normal only because they're
nervous and scared or afraid even though even if they're innocent rather than
they're guilty yeah it can happen you know so you do have to try I mean if if
I was interviewing that person one of the most important things and you've probably heard police officers say this
in the past if you've been interviewed or watched interviews and and they will try and calm the the person down that
they're interviewing they say look just relax we just want to get to the truth and they will you know they'll kind of
take the time to put that person at ease because at the end of the day the most important thing if they are really
really nervous then it's harder for people like me to pick up B language signs that are showing deception because
it's coming across in their nervousness so it's important to get them as calm as possible first because if you've calmed
them down and they're in a nice relaxed State and they're they're telling the the events as they happened then all of
a sudden they get to one particular part and all the nervous signs and all the the red flags start showing up out of
nowhere then you can turn and say ha this bit's different we need to pay a bit of extra attention here if they're
nervous from the beginning and they they're you know their vitals are up and down all over the place and very um kind
of erratic then it makes it a lot harder to detect any change so in the side it'd be different
if if a police officer pulled you over at the side of the road and asked you questions then because they don't it's not an official interview so they don't
they they just want to know if everything's okay and and so on and so forth but in an interview instance this
is where you know the the prior the priority is to to make the person feel as relaxed as possible whilst whilst
interviewing them yes you know it's funny because i' I've

Nervouness vs. Deception
I've imagined myself in that scenario of like okay if any chance I get interview
or question for something that I didn't commit or or something that I did commit
to me I would again I would I don't know how I would be in
that in that particular position on a emotional level
on a nervous system level but I would I start playing scenar in my head trying to be so self-conscious to okay how can
I give the impression that I'm being honest or what and then I would get in my head and trying to okay based on what
I've seen on TV or based on what I've seen on YouTube or or based on things I've read on books so okay maybe if I if
I don't touch anything or maybe if I if I recall like an event perfectly so I
would it's interesting how even even in those scenarios I think
whether you did it or not you're thinking about how do I convince this other person that I didn't do
it and and and and if you have misconceptions about body language if
you don't know exactly if you have a false belief on some theories around body language and
what that can show to the other person then you might even be even incriminating yourself thinking that
you're doing the opposite yeah so what what you what you need to do in sonar I
like this is basically you know to to relax yourself as much as possible you know it's it's important that you don't
start overthinking about kind of oh if I do this does it make myself make me look more nervous and that will only make you
look more nervous and and in turn it will end up spiraling out of control so the advantage you've got if you're
telling the truth is quite simple you've got the truth on your side now people
who are telling lies they need to convince you cuz they don't have the truth on their side so they will they
will generally tend to overt tell a story so you know then a police officer
for example might turn around and say where were you last night at 6:00 and instead of turnning around saying I was
at home they'll turn saying I was at home and I was on the internet and you can ask my mom cuz she called and you can ask my brother cuz he popped around
and you can ask the Milkman cuz and and all of a sudden you you get this you know over the top I'm trying to convince
you I was really here rather than just turn saying I was at home and then if the police officer says okay do you have
anyone who can collaborate that you say yeah no problem my brother called by my mom rang and so if you've got the truth
on your side there's nothing to worry about just keep yourself relaxed and rely on the fact that you you've got
that one advantage that anybody telling a lie doesn't have

Your own body language
H since we're since we're in the topic still of body language right um what
does your body language reveal about you and are we aware of this meaning that we
might read other people's body language we might trying to identify uh how they feel or what they're thinking but we
rarely pay attention to our own body language and we and what we can transmit to other people whether are we
transmitting low energy are we transmitting confidence are we transmitting uh fear so how
one what does uh our body language reveal about oursel and too are we even
aware of this most people aren't and you
know it's it's a shame for people who you know maybe they're walking around the city late at night and they see
people in the distance it makes them nervous automatically they start maybe pulling their coating or putting their shoulders up a little bit and you can
see like a rigidity within their walk that all of a sudden changes their composure entirely and unfortunately
what happens is criminals they're very attuned to that they can they can nudge each other and go he looks like a victim
and if you walk like a victim you will become a victim so when it comes to your
body language and what you're putting out there the most important thing to do and I I've had this with uh you know
I've been walking around with my wife we've we've been through some kind of you know places that are not the nicest part of town um and and I can feel her
you know if we're holding hands I can feel her tensing up and I can feel you a grip tightening on my hand and sometimes
I just stop and I say look relax don't don't walk like you're worried walk like
you own the place and that everything is going to be fine because if there's a slightest little problem you can handle
it um you know I said walk like you've got an army of a million behind you and you'll be fine and and you know and she
she's kind of picking it up a little bit now and she's she's all right with it now but this is how you've got to be because if you walk through a park or an
Alleyway late at night or you walk through the city late at night and you look like you're you're you know
concerned you're going to have a problem but if you walk with all the confidence of you know like like I say an army of a
million behind you it stands a chance that you're actually going to be left
alone based on your knowledge in Psychology how can we control this

Controlling automatic responses
automatic response because I think that it's true as you said the moment that we
start feel a threat we just get tense and then we even without us wanting do
we we're we're giving signals that hey we are I mean we are afraid of being a victim or even if you're in a
negotiation table and then you you are afraid that the other person is going to
um break the deal or or in in any scenarios if the person send any signs
of quote unquote weakness which is no weakness but something that you're not as confident as you should be but that
is many times something that we can cannot control in the moment unless we get good at it how can we get better at
at at not having that automatic response and then just calm a nervous system and
still act and have a confident body language
without giving signs to other people that we are nervous or we are afraid yeah I I suppose in in like a Bard
meeting scenario or or a negotiation or something like that um my my co used to
have a fantastic saying you know you get you get young soldiers that run up to him and go this is happening that's
happening and he he would be so calm and he' just turn around say listen nobody's dead or pregnant slow down tell me what
the problem is and that was all he used to say nobody's dead or pregnant and and what you've got to do is if you are in a
negotiation whether it's at work whatever the case may be it understand that no matter what the outcome of the
negotiation the sun will rise tomorrow life is not over and you know we we will
carry on and the minute you start to look at the the the the bigger picture of this isn't the end of the world no
matter how much the value is on this uh deal or this negotiation you will Live
Another Day nobody's life is going to be lost nobody you know you you got to look at the fact that whether you get a
million-- dollar contract or not there's still something else that you will do that's not your path so don't worry
about it don't stress over it you know have the confidence and knowledge that you're going to go in there and give it
your best shot and whichever way the whichever way the results are whether you do or don't get the deal you're
still alive the sun will still rise tomorrow you'll still be fine nobody's dead or pregnant and there will be
another day to have another go and it's as simple as that this is it's it's all about mindset more so than than kind of
trying to control your body if you if you try and control your body you will struggle because it you're you're you're
fighting a battle where one part of your mind is telling your body to do one thing and Another Part of Your Mind Is Telling your body to do another it's
just going to complicate it whereas if you change your mindset that is when that your body language and your
physiology will naturally change H so I know that everyone is different
right and and everyone's brain works differently but in your
experience how how I don't know if how long is the actual question but
how much work do we have to put to actually change our
mindset it will it'll vary and depend on the individual and there's a um a
military saying which is really really great and that's exposure equals composure and the more you do something
the more you expose yourself to that thing the more composed you will be when it comes to you know dealing with in in
the past so um if you if you look at a a soldier the very first time they're on the front line they get into a firefight
they they are you know very tense very nervous and and you know it's a it's a totally different kind of Outlook to one
that's been in 30 or 40 firefights uh whose Behavior will be so calm because
they've done this time and time again um and and I've used this in in so many different ways of life to help for
helping people and and I'm sure you're the same you know the first time you ride a bike the first time you jump into
a swimming pool whatever the case may be you jump into a pool you ing all over the place when you first having having a
try to swim um you know but but if you have a pool and you you you're swimming regular it's not long before I mean my
daughter you know she was kind of uh a kid she she in no time at all she was
like a little mermaid within a few weeks you know because she just in in the pool every day um so you know the more you do
something the more exposure you get to it the more composed you will
become I like that I like that framing a lot and and again true so the more you
do something the more as you said you're exposed to it the more you're telling your brain that you're capable of doing
those things and and the more confident you get huh so as somebody who has

Lessons on Human Behavior
worked at the highest level of security and intelligence right what are the most
important things that you have learned about human behavior wow
um that's a loaded question I like I like your question um yeah I I suppose um well
the what I've what I've learned that's been of most value to me is that most
people are actually quite predictable and you can usually influence somebody quite easily if you
you use just the the basic levels of mind control without getting too deep into into the whole subject of Mind
Control um it doesn't take much to be able to uh either convince somebody of
one thing or another um you know I think it's nearly 70% of Americans can be
convinced within an hour to commit murder wow um so yeah that's uh and yeah
um so there's a massive you know you've only got to look at the milgrim experiment which is proof that that was like 67 point something per I think it
was by a total stranger they were convinced to kill somebody within an hour um there are so many different ways
that you can uh manipulate the mind and and I'm not immune to it either even
though I I know uh about the inner workings of it I'm also aware of of like
kind of um the fact that it does get used on me regularly you know by you
know media outlets and that kind of thing so if you look at the likes of uh
lofter and Palmer and and the the experiment that Elizabeth Loftus did um she did everything from um uh deleting
thoughts from people's memory implanting thoughts in people's memories uh and and
what she calls thought pollution where she can change people's perception of a memory that they have uh absolutely
fascinating stuff within the world of psychology and the majority of the time it's not that diff difficult it can be
simply changing one word in a sentence or a question can change somebody's um
perception of that memory and I'll give you an example she did what they call the carcraft experiment and she got two groups of
people she showed them both the same video of a car crash and afterwards she said to the first group something along
the lines of what speed do you think the vehicles were going when they bumped into each other and they said probably
20 25 M hour she changed that word from bumped to smashed in the other one and
she said what speed do you think the cars were going when they smashed into each other and they said oh probably
about 40 45 mph so there's a massive change of almost double um just by
changing one word in a sentence which just shows how easy it is to manipulate the human brain and
perception wow I mean that is that is kind of scary to
even think about because that means that we cannot even trust our own minds we cannot even trust our own memories
because those who could have been and and by the way I know I know that our minds are tricky I know know that our
minds are are not the most the most reliable narrator we know that you know
we experience an event and then the way that we tell oursel how that event
happened is probably different from what actually we experience it's just how our brain works but somebody else having the
power of erasing some thoughts or memory
planting new thoughts or memories that are not ours and making us believe that those are hours that
us I mean I that's that's that's just f one fascinating absolutely fascinating
but at the same time it's scary because now now you start questioning yourself a lot like okay are these thoughts really
mine are or are they people trying to which I think that that's what a lot of marketeers trying to do influence you
with with trying to make you desire something that you never thought about
and that is on a very high level type of things like okay that's that's
the one of the mildest scenarios that somebody trying to sell you something but on a deeper or or more serious level
as you said within an hour almost 70% of Americans were convinced that they could
go ahead and just kill somebody which is like extremely bizarre but that reminds
me a little bit of um that b when I was just when I was reading about your background it seems to me that one of
the main components of your job job was getting people to like you or to trust you right and to eventually give you
something like uh information for instance I guess what I'm trying to understand is how to get someone to do

Building Trust and Influence
what you want them to do it seems to me that you need to understand their ideology and being able to see the world
with their lens it's kind of like to truly understand how they operate and what makes s thick what's the framework
or techniques right that you use to persuade the other person so there's different approaches on this
dependent upon how much time you have um so for example uh there was an operation
in London with a Russian Diplomat uh going back a few years um and a similar
kind of thing has been done several times so as as an intelligence officer one of the first things you have to do
is establish a pattern of Life a p um for the Target so this is you know they
might go to you know do their shopping on a Sunday uh they go to work Monday to Friday but
8 8:00 after work on the evening they go to a a chess night or whatever the case
may be um and this particular Russian Diplomat he used to walk his dog uh every morning before he used to go to
the Embassy it was about 7 7:30 in the morning walk his dog around the park um and that would be him before he got to
work to do his little thing um what we did is this is when you will build up a
familiarity so we got an operative I'm not going to say who it is but you might be talking to
him um they got an operative and what that operative had to do was walk his
dog in the opposite direction and then all I do bit by bit is every morning I
it builds familiarity with the fact that oh there's that guy again walking his dog again and uh after I've done that
for I five or six days maybe a week he's got used to seeing me then what happens
is I can ramp that up to eye contact that eye contact eventually becomes smile that smile eventually becomes
maybe a wave or or a good morning and that good Morning Becomes a conversation that conversation becomes a friendship
the Friendship then and it just kind of builds very very gradually and what's happened is you've built on the ground
of familiarity so rather than kind of um uh
bumping into a stranger and asking them a load of questions that it will automatically get people's guard up
they'll like kind of who's this stranger why does you keep asking me stuff you've built this familiarity and Brands some
of the biggest brands in the world know the power of familiarity this is why the likes of Coca Cola are bombarding you
with adverts constantly the liks of McDonald's and all the others these big Brands they're constantly bombarding you
because they don't need to advertise it's not like there's a shortage of coke being sold or a shortage of Big Macs
being sold um it's it's it's that constant familiarity that they're they're keeping themselves in your head
and once you know that you relate to that product and you choose choose it over everything else because of the familiarity you have with that product
so if you go to a a different country for example and you're shopping you will
tend to buy the same brands in that other country or the equivalent so you go you you know you go to the
supermarket there might be I don't know 100 different types of packets of chips down the aisle but you'll look for the
one that either is LA or looked like LA because it looks familiar to you so you go oh yeah I'll pick that one all the
others might be 10 times better but the familiarity makes you go yeah let's grab one of them you will you will look
around and you might see the products all in a different language completely but you recognize the packaging for something that you see as being familiar
so you pick that one so familiarity has a massive strength so therefore you can
build your relationship on that familiarity and it doesn't throw anybody it doesn't make any P anybody panic and
think this guy's approached me is he after information it it seems so natural
and organic that it doesn't result in in in anybody ringing any alarm Bells straight
away H so what I could understand is like you
don't want to set off any alarms from the other person you just don't want
their defenses to come up or or even being on high alert cuz you I guess you
you just want to ease into them exactly and and once you gain familiarity once
you start once you establish that Rapport that friendship that
connection how do you I guess what techniques can you use to one understand
how the other person sees the world and how you can use that information to
eventually influence that person and this could be even even with couples or friends if you want someone to do
something for you or if you want to persuade somebody to to have a similar opinion or similar
than than you I mean like like yours what how can we navigate those
Waters with the other person yeah uh so when you when you're in that stage of
building Rapport um all it is it's generally a conversation that's like a
50/50 exchange and all you do is you you you bring the amount you're saying down and the amount they're saying up and you
naturally kind of um get people that enjoy being listened to you them you you
try and make the conversation about them as much as possible and on top of all of
that you kind of um and again this will all depend on personality types because
people will react differently to different things but but just sparingly peppering in sincere
compliments um so you don't want to be overkilled with hey that top looks good on you and those boots look brilliant on
you and you've got so much great taste and your pants are wonderful and you know you you kind of you don't want to Overkill with it it but um just enough
to turn around and say you know what I was thinking about what you said last time and you're an intelligent guy cuz
I've taken the time to go back and reflect on what you told me and I've now come back and come to the conclusion that you know you had this sust all
along and that's enough just to make somebody smile and go hey this guy has an admiration for me and that in their
opinion then elevates you and your status and how they perceive you so um
but it must it must be sincere it's no good just kind of trying to but people up and and and be a brown nose you you
do have to um you know kind of mean what you say and and there are always traits
on anybody in the world to find to be able to complement them on you say something very fascinating

The Power of Vulnerability
and something that I've been thinking about for a while that when you give somewhat like um a subtle uh compliment
one you make them feel good which we all know about this but second you elevate your status and the respect that the
other person has on you and here's the interesting thing about that because to me I've always felt that those people
who trying to put you down are people that are trying to bring you to their level right and and and for them is is
so much insecurity about that okay I I don't want this person to feel that they
are more than me or they are superior than me so I need to bring them back to
Earth I need to and to me it's like but if you think about it if you you if you casually say because this is something
that I use with people and I do it in a very genuine way I'm talking to somebody
and I do you know what I I I like how you see the world is
fascinating right it's just how how your man think just it just operates and even
just like that just throwing in the middle of the conversation in a very nonchalant way like it's completely
normal me saying that the other person want once it it feels you know good
hey somebody values the way that I think or my opinions but at the same time by
you showing that confidence but you just saying that thing without as you say brown notse without having to put them
on a pedestal so to speak the other person starts feeling like you are raising them
to your level and then makes and that makes them have more respect for you
than doing the opposite so I really I'm really glad you mentioned that I've been thinking about it for a lot of time
a long time and I feel that nowadays people tend to do the opposite people to feel respected or feel Superior or feel
better than the other one they feel that they have to put everyone down which is has the opposite effect yeah um it's so
sorry yeah yeah no no no go I was just going to say it's one I I gave somebody some advice not so long back when they
they started a job and they're working with about 20 people and about 18 of them they got on with fine but two
people didn't particular really like him and I said all you've got to do is go up to them and ask them a very very very
small favor that's all you got to do the people that don't like you you know go to go to the first one um and just say
hey I've been working on this project uh I've got two options A and B um you know
I actually really value your opinion because you're a really switched on person what do you think I would be better going with a or b that will
change their perception of you entirely because the will throw them off
guard and it'll be like hey you know I didn't actually particularly like this fell that much but they obviously like
me and they value my opinion so much so that they're coming to me to ask me for advice that's the first trigger and then
the second trigger is the fact that you you you're asking them for a small favor and that in itself if they do that favor
and fulfill that favor opens them up and a part of their mind that then says I actually must like this person more than
I thought because I've just done a favor for them and not and logic dictates that you don't do favors for people you don't
like so that kind of ends up then winning that person over and before you
know it the 20 or to the 20 people L you not 18 of them and I think there's another I think
might there might be another reason why that works is because what I realized I again we're
not everybody's cup of tea some people won't like us we won't like some people just that is by Design but I think that
in many instances some people might not like you because they feel that you are
arrogant or or they feel inferior to you or they feel some sort of insecurity you
trigger something in them and I think by you asking for help you're showing even even if it's small favor you're showing
some level of vulnerability exactly and then you're trying to connect with so connection is not or even friendships is
you don't create friendship by helping the other PE person you create friendship by asking for help help and
that creates and that because if you're always helping somebody else then the other person is going to feel probably
patronized that they're not able to do anything by themselves and then you are superior in some shape or form and
that's why you always but the moment that you flip the script and the moment you say hey I need your help I need this
the other person feels like empowered that oh I can help this individual I can so I'm I'm enough I'm worth it I'm I'm
on his say level in fact I could be superior than him in some areas because I feel that personally everyone is
superior than me in something some someone everyone knows something better than me people everyone has that um a
different skill set than me that I can learn from but having that vulnerability I think helps break that barrier and

Ego and Anxiety in High-Stakes Situations
makes it as you said people like you to some extent yeah and of course you know
as as humans inherently we we think we want Perfection and we actually despise Perfection so in Psychology there's this
thing called the prepall effect and what they did is they they took two groups of of um people on dates and group number
one the man was told to be the perfect gentleman all the way through the night uh you know be entertaining be funny you
know try and make a successful date and he did that and at the end they they
asked the ladies you know what what the percentage chance of you wanting to see this guy again and I think there was
only something def like about 20% of the women said yeah I'd like to see him again the second group they they had him
still trying to be the perfect gentleman but on the walk home he had to trip and or fall over or or you know and that's
why it's called the Pratt fall effect and show that he was imperfect he had to show this imperfection um maybe even you
know get muddy or trip in a puddle or whatever the case may be and it made them it made them laugh at the fact that
you know he' done this Daft thing even though even though it was deliberate it was made to look accidental and at the
end of the night they asked the ladies what would what do you think the chances of you wanting to see this man again
would be and it went up to 92% and everything else was identical
the restaurants the set in the drink everything else was absolutely identical it was just that one difference and and
that was showing an imperfection a vulnerability and just the fact that they are human and not perfect uh and it
increased that person's chances dramatically of of a second date that is absolutely fasc fellas you
know being perfect full trip or whatever and your chances will just almost I mean
more than quadruple because going from 20 to 92 that is exactly so but I think
I mean I I can definitely see it I I I can definitely see how you right away it triggers something
when somebody's trying to be too perfect you feel that you're not enough and it's almost embedded into our nervous system
that we are not enough or we're not good enough for and when we see somebody who is who shows some vulnerability who
feels nervous hey I'm going I mean I'm I mean I'm a little bit nervous right now or I feel a little bit anxious about
this it puts the other person at ease because the the other person probably feels that way as well but they don't
want to they want to reveal that because they don't know how you feel about it so when so when both defenses are
lower based on an imperfection or or something in that nature it creates that
that connection or that bond that hey we are on the same boat and we're imperfect
and we feel more comfortable around each other exactly and this is why the likes
of people like Jack Black are so hugely popular I mean there's so many people like Jack Black because he's not trying
to be perfect he's making an idiot of himself he's using self-deprecating humor he's doing daff things and saying
look I I don't care you know I know I'm not perfect I know I'm not a a chip Andale sixpack you know Punk and
whatever else but I I am enjoying myself and I'm just like you guys I'm I'm just one of us and and that's that's where
you know his popularity SES because he's not trying to hide behind a mask of perfection yeah he's he's
unapologetically himself and this something that I'm trying to get better at because I'm I'm I'm perfectionist in
any anything I I do and then I try to hey don't don't try to be perfect and
it's not about I want them to think better of me it's just like it is almost like second nature and I need to retrain
my brain to it's okay to screw it up and then just let it go
but based on on once again on on that human behavior of that feelings of the
emotions of the nervous system how do you get a hold of your ego and and to
some extent anxiety when you are in a highrisk dynamic situation yeah so I mean again this is

Priming and Positive Associations
something that takes a lot of practice again it comes to the whole exposure equals composure thing um and it it is
really difficult to keep your ego in check in in these kind of scenarios um
but one of the one of the main things that I can advise people is to monitor
your internal dialogue and so many people have had this where they put the proposal forward
or whatever the case they slide it across the desk and then they sit there and then they're silence for a moment
and that's when they start to panic and inside their head they got going what if he doesn't like it maybe I should smile
maybe I should get him a coffee if I smile will I look too stupid if I stay too serious do I don't look friendly and then start asking themselves all these
questions they start causing themselves Panic they get all this internal turmoil because of all the questions that are
arising instead of just you know saying to themselves look I've given him the proposal it's now out of my hands
whatever happens next I have no control over it so I'm just going to let be what will be and that's that's where you kind
of maintain that control because you have to give up the control to to have
the control if you know what I mean you know just just turn and say there's nothing it's it's it's done you know U
so whatever the reaction is whatever the response is there's nothing I can do about it now and you know I will just
wait to see what the outcome is and deal with it from there yeah especially when when you
realize that you cannot control how the other person is going to react or what the other person is going to do I mean
you can definitely influence it in a way that if you if you show if you show
Panic if you show anxiety if you show um fear then then you can influence how the
other person might my react or my behave or or might do but then if you show
confidence and if you show composure and you're if you and even if you show that
you're relaxed even though inside you're you're living an internal battle right
at least if you show that you get influenced the other person but you can never ever control what the other person
is going to do anyway so fascinating and we we've had scenarios like this in the past in in board meetings where um you
know I've tried to help people by saying look there are ways you can mitigate uh
the outcome you know so hypothetically you know you got the guy sitting off opposite you and you know his favorite
coffee and you've got it made up and you put it all on a tray and you slide it across the table in a particular way you
know directly to him and say your favorite coffee puts a smile on his face he has his favorite copy is happy right
then maybe afterwards you you know you've been going for a while and maybe you've got donuts or maybe you've got
cookies so again exactly the same action they're on the table in front of you you slide them across and again you've got
this whole thing where he he's seeing these cookies or these donuts and they're his favorite type he eats them and whatever else then when it comes to
Sliding the contract across you do exactly the same thing and what you've got You've Got The Power of Association
so youve slid the coffee across it's his favorite good feeling and he's a is associated that anything that come in
slid across the table in front of him has a positivity attached to it you've done it with a coffee you've done it with the donuts now you've done it with
the contract so you expect the same outcome and these are little tricks that you can do and there's many many of them
to kind of reinforce um kind of positive Association to a particular scenario um
both before during and after a negotiation and on their own individually they're not so strong but
use lots of them together and you know a little bit of confidence with what you're doing uh and combined you know it
can be quite powerful and and give you the outcome you want you know it's almost like you're
priming the other person's bra just just by all they did a they did an an

The Impact of Social Media on Perception
experiment years ago in which they they had two group of people
and they train actors to approach these people and to
basically have a small interaction with them I think it was haror who actually did it and you had I think 100 people on
on one experiment one 100 people on the other one and these were train actors doing the exact same behavior over and
over and over again and and the and the experiment was that they would just
these actors were carrying a cup of coffee and they would just give it to the other person hey can you hold this
for a second while they were whatever tying their shoes or something and they they took the coffee back and they left
and 15 minutes later somebody came and said hey I want you to I'll give you 20 bucks I I want you to read the script or
the story and tell me and just answer these questions now the key difference was that one group had iced coffee the
other one the other group had hot coffee so that that that change for five
seconds and 10 seconds on them having the the the cup of coffee made them think about differently on the
story they just read like a short story and they ask how they perceive them main
character and I think that 70 or 80% of those who had the the the cold coffee
felt that the character on the story was kind of distance and cold and the other ones thought that the character was warm
and even with that small interaction you're priming the other person to to just feel or think in a specific way and
by you giving the example of of sliding the coffee sliding the cookie it's
almost like you know that anything that you slide comes with a positive feeling
MH and that and that and that immediately it's like makes them feel like oh this is something I I should
sign because it is positive because I it's almost unconscious we don't even think about it that's fascinating
fascina um I mean there's a couple more questions yeah I would love to ask you
but um in your line of work you have you
relied heavily on your God and intuition however I feel that Society has lost the
ability to tap into and listen to intuition maybe maybe perhaps because you are in such a distracted world what
can we do to train oursel to become more in touch with our intuition and learn to
listen to it and decipher the message less screen time and it's a simp simple as that less
screen time um Telly laptops phones tablets just you know I'm not saying
stop them completely I'd be an idiot if I did um and there are lots you can
learn from you know the likes of YouTube or online courses or on your phone or or audio books or whatever the case may be
that you utilize it for but if you just find yourself scrolling mindlessly for
hours through Tik Tok videos insta res Facebook news feeds or whatever else it
it's causing huge amounts of harm and and and I I can't stress this enough
um the the the news feed and the algorithms
that that are are coming to you are very very deliberate you know they are everything's tailor made for the end
user they soon these these social media sites pick up on what you like and what you and they will feed you more of what
you find interesting they are designed to be addictive you are going up against a trillion computer and you will lose
every single time and they know this um so uh they they utilize it to their
advantage and I heard about uh so I'm going to be
careful with my words here I heard about an experiment that was done by a particular social media site a few years
ago and what they did is they took a select group of 200 people and 100 of
them were only only shown negative um posts in their Newsfeed you know either
bad weather somebody died you know the world's ending blah blah blah you know really negative stuff on on the on their
Newsfeed the other one was shown only positive no matter what was going on in the world all positive stuff you know
flowers weddings Beach vacations whatever blah blah blah you know and it was deliberately filtered on both of
these uh news feeds over a period I think it was 6 months or 12 months or something like that at the end the ones

Social Media Experiment
that were shown only the negative had had an enormous decline in every area of
their life so much so that some of them had lost jobs some of them had had their
houses and cars repossessed some of them had had divorces or split up with their long-term Partners roused with friends
blah blah blah blah blah uh and two of them were actually stopped from the brink of suicide it was absolutely saying the
other 100 who were only shown the positive stuff um they'd had promotions they'd
had uh better jobs on job offers they' had a better life they' book vacations were having the best time with their
family and and everything was so so positive and their their their entire life had increased phenomenally in a
positive way in every in pretty much every area so if you if you look at the
fact that what is happening there technically when you're going through these news feeds are digital affirmations going
directly into your brain to change your perception of the world and if you take
take that on board and think that everything you look at see and hear and watch on your newsfeed is is
basically altering your reality and and then you start to say
okay what am I going to allow myself to see or how much time am I going to give
to social Med media and when you start realizing that and you limit it and say right I'm going to maybe after an hour
switch off and go and take a walk down the beach or go and take a walk through the woods or going to spend some time in
nature and and that's that's how you need to react it and uh you know because
it it will affect everybody on the planet if they are you know Doom scrolling as they've they've nicknamed
it recently uh I'm I'm blown away but I guess I'm
not surprised by the results of the study and and and I don't know in England but here in America I can now
see why there's so much despair in peoples you any I haven't watched news
in probably five years or something every channel you put whether is CNN Fox News Bloomberg MCM any any of this
channel everything is just a breaking news something bad something all the time all the time so now bad news or
negative news sell more generate more emotions and more clicks and more
everything than the positive ones but then at the same time it's priming us to just feel bad and and then all whether
we lose our jobs whether we we don't feel happy with oursel it's not about our lives but it's about how we have wir
our brain to only get focused on the negatives and that's how we're just going to find at the end of day no
fascinating I really really fascinating and it gives you it makes you think it's like okay
sure um I like using Instagram and and those apps mostly for funny videos and
and stuff like that but but there's always some level of toxicity in them that unknowingly you are basically rear
your brain to see the world in a different with a different lens a lens
that has more toxicity into it which is not very good so I'm glad you actually
shared that because you know it's it's going to make me think it's going to make the listeners think next time that
they're scrolling hey is this actually good for me or not yeah I hope it has some positive
impact for some you if if one person out there just just kind of takes control of their life by scrolling a little less
and walking in nature a little more than ever it was worth it well I'll I'll be
that one person at least for now cuz I'm definitely going to do it uh more often just walking in nature and and scrolling
less Gavin I'm having a wonderful and such a fascinating conversation with you

Closing Question: Scariest Moment in Gavin's Career
but as a closing question and I don't know if you can answer this but I'm still going to ask anyway um as a former
spy what was his scarious moment in your career um there was a few but some I
can't talk about the the one that that I have mentioned before was actually it was it was in England of all places and
I've been to some pretty nasty parts of the world um and and I I was held at knife Point
by uh a couple of guys um and again you know it doesn't sound too serious and I've been in worst scenario since but
this was very early on um and I remember the one guy literally held me by the throat and got the knife ready to to to
put in me while the other guy was on the phone and and he was talking to his boss and he said do do we kill him or do we
bring him to see you um and I just remember thinking this is it this is where it all ends uh you know and and
and just you just panck and and uh luckily as it happens um the guy said
you know on the other end of the phone you know I want to I want to see him um so that was it and that was but it was
hit and miss and and at that point I really genuinely did think it was over for me and like I said I was I was a lot
younger at the time and uh uh lot less experienced and and uh yeah it was a a
scary moment I mean I cannot I I cannot imagine when when hey your life was in
that person's boss hands like if he had say yes I mean you and I wouldn't have
wouldn't be having this conversation so wow I mean that is definitely I mean I would be definitely scared and I'm sure
that you have faced all the things that are equally uh scary or just worse but
then obviously you can't talk about gav such a wonderful and once again fascinating conversation but where can

Where to find Gavin
people find you I know that you're an author I know that you have written both fiction and non-fiction books and then
you're also a consultant where can people find you where can people buy your books or even hire you if if that
were the case okay yes so I'm on all the usual social media sites like Twitter Facebook and Instagram um I do have a
link tree account which has links to all of them uh I have a YouTube channel where I get a lot of my um you know
former friends and colleagues from the intelligence community and I interview them you know like CIA KGB FBI uh MI6
guys you know that kind of thing um so if they want to know more about the world of spying they can by all means
check that out um and then for anything hiring me for whether it's keynote speeches or or want to want to wish and
that kind of thing uh I'm on LinkedIn uh feel free to kind of connect with me on LinkedIn and send me a
message awesome uh can what are your uh social media handles just just Gavin
stone or uh usually Gavin Stone author I think the only exception is um Twitter
which I think is the other way around it's @ author okay and for your YouTube channel what
would be the name of the channel I believe that is that's at Gavin Stone author as well gav perfect I'll I'll add
all of those in the video show not and you to description once again gav thank you for coming on the podcast and for
giving such such great insights about human behavior and human psychology thank you for having me I've enjoyed it



English (auto-generated)




All
For you
Recently uploaded
Watched
Learning