Unhitched But Not Unhinged Podcast

E2: The Cheating Spouse: When to stay & When to go; Infidelity & It's Effect On a Divorce

• Tessa James

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When the hushed whispers of infidelity threaten the sanctity of marriage, is there a roadmap to recovery? Dr. Caroline Madden, a Pro-Marriage Therapist and Infidelity Recovery Coach, joins us to dissect the intricate layers of betrayal, examining how cheating often signals deep-rooted marital problems rather than being the sole impetus for divorce. Discover how some couples find the strength to mend their bonds, and why an affair, while devastating, doesn't universally herald the end of a union.

Venture into the labyrinth of post-affair emotions with us, where the initial shock can be as disorienting as a cinematic plot twist. We unravel the gender-specific reactions to infidelity and the challenging process of regaining trust, particularly when the affair involves a coworker. Dr. Madden lays bare the hallmarks of genuine remorse and the pivotal steps a repentant spouse must take. For those entangled in the complexity of a partner's misconduct, this episode sheds light on the often unseen efforts required to rebuild a shattered trust.

Navigating the stormy seas of divorce in the wake of an affair requires more than just legal maneuvering; it demands emotional fortitude. We discuss the value of a steady hand like a divorce coach to guide you through potentially hasty decisions that could alter the future of your family. As we wrap up, the conversation pivots to the significance of creating a 'supportive village'—a network of professionals and confidants who provide the essential support and resources for coping with the upheaval of infidelity. Join us for an episode that promises not just insights but also solace for those facing the tumultuous journey of betrayal and its consequences.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome everyone to the Unhitched but not Unhinged podcast with me, your host, divorce coach and mentor, tessa James, and, as always by my side, my co-host Susan.

Speaker 2:

Hi, it's time to tackle another topic and help bring awareness of just how valuable partnering with a divorce coach can be.

Speaker 1:

So if you're simply thinking about divorce, already in the process or even beyond, this podcast is for you. Welcome Susan, welcome Dr Madden, so excited that you're both here today. What a beautiful day have you all seen the sunsets happening? I mean just absolutely stunning, gorgeous. So that is a fun fact. Did you know that if you're a person that absolutely loves sunsets, you are called and I'm going to bear with me, I'm going to try and pronounce this correctly Opakarophile? I don't even know if I'm pronouncing that correctly, but that's just a fun fact. That's me. I absolutely love, love, love sunsets.

Speaker 2:

Well, I will learn that word then. So we've got Dr Madden with us. Hi, Dr Madden. Please meet everybody. Everyone here is Dr Madden. Dr Caroline Madden is a highly regarded pro-marriage therapist and infidelity recovery coach based in Los Angeles.

Speaker 1:

She is also an accomplished author and sought after lecturer, specializing in relationship dynamics, particularly infidelity in marriage. Her books, such as Fool Me Once Should I Take Back my Cheating Husband and, blindsided by his betrayal, how to Survive your Husband's Infidelity, provide criteria based guidance for women dealing with just what to do in the aftermath of infidelity. She can be found at carolinemaddencom. And again, such a pleasure to have you join us. Thank you so much, dr Madden.

Speaker 3:

Well, you know, I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 2:

So this is a tough topic, but it's a very necessary one. A research from Psychology Today and the American Psychological Association found that 20 to 40% of divorces are caused by an affair. The discovery of an affair may trigger a divorce, but there were likely problems in the marriage prior to the affair, wouldn't you say, dr Madden?

Speaker 3:

I think that the infidelity is just the straw on the camel's back for most couples, especially couples married couples with children who used to, at a show, try to stay together for a period of time. They make an attempt For sure, for sure.

Speaker 1:

And would this statement ring true to you, dr Madden? When marital problems are not addressed, unhappy spouses may turn to somebody outside the relationship.

Speaker 3:

Well, going outside of the relationship is always the decision of the person who went outside of the relationship. So a marriage has problems, it's marriage, and trying to solve the problems of a marriage by going outside the marriage is never a good idea. So is that an excuse people give? Is it that they are feeling trapped in a relationship where their needs aren't getting met and, instead of addressing them or divorcing or whatever, they choose to go outside the relationship by cold, soft landing so they don't feel like they're going to die alone? Or passive, aggressive, acting out or whatever it is, whatever it is Interesting. Or Vos doesn't love them that way anymore and doesn't care about them, and maybe even no one are looking the other way. So it's always the decision of the person to go outside. There's no justification in cheating. It's my opinion.

Speaker 1:

For sure I would share in that opinion 100%.

Speaker 2:

So in that same APA study they found that 40%, and I thought this was really interesting. And the reason why I found it interesting was that I think, as women and girls growing up, cheating is just sort of like that one thing that will break everything, that deal breaker yeah, the deal breaker, and there are quite a lot of people that 40% of spouses at cheat want to be divorced or separated, compared to 17% of people who didn't cheat were divorced and separated. So in about 50% of the partners that did cheat remained married, versus 75% of couples where the spouse didn't cheat. So there is empirical statistics that show that cheating does have an effect on your marital and divorce status, but not always. I mean, there are people that have infidelity in their marriage and can remain together. I think that takes a lot of work, but it doesn't have to be the end all, but it's pretty significant still.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, for sure, I think you might be mixing up cause and effect which a certain type of person who cheats is. You can have the same couple faced with the same problems One cheats and the other one doesn't. Or you know, I've been doing this for 20 years, saying couples all faced with job loss, special needs, kids needs, kids in the family, whatever it is, and some people cheat and some people get closer right, they turn towards each other, they turn towards religious faith, they turn towards therapy, books, whatever it is, so it's still that choice. So if you have someone who feels entitled to go rogue and entitled to get their needs met in such a destructive, terrible way, then that's also someone, someone's married to, right Versus someone who's like I don't care what's going on, they're not cheating because it's just an integrity issue or whatever.

Speaker 3:

There are a lot of people who die at the hospital. So if you go to the hospital, it means you're going to die and it's like no, there are a lot of sick people going to the hospital, right? So it's not. It's that the people who cheat right? Are they someone who have sexual addiction, are a narcissist, or are they good people who under stress and poor communication skills and family, of origin issues or whatever made a poor choice that even they regret that they say, wow, I can't believe I did that and that it's. It's like a lesson to learn from. Like, when you hurt someone, you care about making a bend bluveling being a different person. Also, some couples are just so happy like, oh, he cheated, but he's not going off with the affair partner. Yay that they just sweep it under the rug, right, all roads, all fights, all for years and years all lead back to but you have an affair on me, right, or I will stay but never fully trust you again.

Speaker 1:

Sure, sure Outer roads things too, yeah, for sure. So, dr Madden, what are some things that look suspicious but probably aren't?

Speaker 3:

I'm talking about when infidelity has been discovered and the spouse comes and says I'm really sorry, I want to work on it. I wanted to, and they're beginning trying to work on the relationship. So these aren't signs your man is cheating. Okay, you want signs, and sneaky signs that your man is cheating? I'm for that too. I could give you this as well, but what is it that you're asking? So I'm answering the right question.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think after infidelity are you talking about after infidelity has been found? I am yeah, because, like you said, all roads will sort of lead back to that. So you know, once you've been hurt, we're hyper vigilant. Yeah, so what should we sort of take back and take a breath and take a beat on, without jumping on it like he's cheating again?

Speaker 3:

Well and I think what you said there, susan, is so important Take a beat when you find out your husband, the father of your children, has betrayed you in this way. It's like you're one of these souvenir snow globes and you're just shaken all around. You're going through trauma and, as we know, making big decisions like getting a divorce, what that does to your children and potential grandchildren. Like you just taking a beat so you feel more like yourself. There's no rush on getting divorced unless he's like still cheating on you, other abuse issues, etc. But, like you, take a moment where you're just like, hey, I'm gonna put the walls up, I'm gonna thumb my face for a little bit and not worry if I'm getting divorced or not, like not to put all that pressure on you, on your. So the first and thing that men do that are absolutely annoying and look suspicious but actually aren't, is I call it the drip, drip, drip of truth, and that you kind of get the story and then more details keep dripping out. So, oh, we were just friends, and then, oh, we kissed, and then you've been at hotels for the last three years or whatever. Okay, it's that so one. I know this sounds strange, but it is true. Men don't think this out, right where I've said this to test them many times, women do. Women don't think of the consequences to themselves, their financial situation, their children. They play chess in all of this. So when I say he really didn't think it through, the guys are like yes, I didn't think it through. And women are like how was that even possible? So he gets caught and so his answer is to lie immediately, not tell the truth. That's very rare. I've been doing this for over 20 years. I think seven men in that moment it's like, oh, so glad you know. Let me tell you all of it and that 1000 couples I've had. It's extraordinarily rare. So a woman very much wants to know her timeline, like, oh, I thought we were this couple and now I found out you were with other women or whatever. Right, I call it six cents like world enough to remember the movie. Six cents Spoiler alert for a movie that's 20 years, spoiler alert. But you know, at the end of that movie you're like what? And you have to replay the movie. Okay, so what? A woman has found out that her husband is cheated. That is exactly the world she goes into. I thought we were here, but life was, I live again. Okay.

Speaker 3:

So the man didn't think it through, doesn't have his lies Set up, usually hasn't covered his tracks very well and is just like Want to get to stop. Who push away? I don't want to answer more. Lie, deletes every single text message which is such a bad idea, and it's the drip, drip, drip or two. So you get, you get the story and you're like, okay, well, this story, this happened, this happened, I think, with this story, I put it through my computer and at the end my decision is not maybe to stay forever, but stay enough to see if I can work on the marriage, to see if it's just, if it's possible, right, and then a new tell-me-sup, usually because Women are the most resourceful people on the planet. So, yeah, I, nsa, fbi, nothing has anything on a woman who's found out her man has cheated. Not only that is the hive mind, until a woman out of Starbucks Help me find the info on this and you'll have a village of women just right there showing you how to find out more information On the phone, right, 100%, 100%, okay.

Speaker 3:

So then the cat and mouse game happens, where oh, this is the story. She's like mmm I'm still sensing deception. She looks through stuff, finds one more detail and Then out drips more truth. Men do that because one their cowards, they're scared, they They'll oh, is this gonna be the detail that she finally leaves me? Right, all of that.

Speaker 3:

But also men and women, what have been betrayed, because I see them as clients too. When men have been betrayed, they don't want to know anything about the affair. Right thing they want to know is the details of some man defiling their wife and what hotel it was and whatever. So they're doing kind of the golden rule. Even asking all these questions and saying she needs all these questions answered, he's like, yeah, no, you don't that. Because that sounds cruel, sure, and to them, because they are men, the actual physical infidelity is like the worst thing ever. Why do you care about the details of? Did you cuddle in bed? Did you say I love you? Did you, you know, did you meet your mom? Like why do you care about these things? And and so for them. They're just making dumb men mistakes. But it is so crippling on the woman just feeling like every time she has a sense of safety and maybe we can move through this and whatever.

Speaker 1:

It's like Wamo, it's like it's like being re traumatized each time you find out a little nugget of truth. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

You have to. We run it through the computer, right, right, like. I had a client who described it as like, hey, when you find out your husband's Jesus, a hurricane that goes through your life. Right, you can't tell if this is the kitchen cabinet knob or the bathroom cabinet knob. It's kind of like everything is out there. So say it all then, because six months, because she will find out eventually, because these days of her not knowing those days are over, bro, those days do not exist. She's gonna look and she's gonna find it. She better hear it from you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, wow, that is so interesting. I like how you discussed the differences in Telling the truth or telling your spouse, whether you're the husband or the wife, and how you tell them and, and that a husband doesn't doesn't want to know the details. That's amazing. What are some signs that a cheating spouse displays when they're actually remorseful for what they've done, and and how do you decide whether to give them a second chance?

Speaker 3:

well, one, the. The word I would use is humble, right, someone your husband has made all of these stupid ass decisions Can I swear on this program Decisions deciding what you needed to know, what you didn't need to do, and instead just answering your questions, trying to get that timeline done, trying to be there, trying to show up, not Like. Sometimes the woman will say well, you did this, you meant that, and it's like that part he was actually telling the truth on and so he wants to be like. That's true. So it's like you just have to be like. I hurt you so badly. I'm here to answer whatever questions you have because I've made a bold decision. So it's being humble and and it's starting to see things through the eyes of your partner. How would this look?

Speaker 3:

It's not business as usual when, hey, you used to. You know, take, take a female co-worker home From a Christmas party. That never was a problem. It's a problem now, right, and so the things that they do is showing up that they hurt you and instead of making excuses, instead of blaming, instead of whatever, it's just like wow, I really hurt you and I blew it, and that the affair partner has been kicked to the curb. There is no healing, there's no remorse, there's no moving forward till that affair partner has been kicked out. Well, I call it blockety block, blockety block. Okay, now is it difficult when it's a co-worker and all of this stuff, but that there is an honest effort of no more communication.

Speaker 3:

And when that woman does keep him he says I know you're not gonna be happy, but she's texted me. Here it is. How do we want to respond that of like oh no, and to be in trouble? My wife is gonna find out. Let me delete the text. She already saw the text. She already knows the text happened. She's just waiting to see if you're shading McShader. She already knows this text happened. Are you gonna come and be like this text happened? She's been like I know and Say I know it's gonna hurt your feelings. We've been having such a great day and I am so sorry to do this to you, but how do we respond? That? That's incredible. Any sort of information he tells you about the timeline before the timeline, any new contact, anything like that, that he did not reasonably think you knew or ever could have known, that is a sign of a man who's really ready to do the work.

Speaker 2:

I think that's number one, that the interloper is out and that there's transparency, true transparency.

Speaker 1:

So and I think that may be a sign that your spouse is truly being authentic. I agree in wanting to make the marriage work.

Speaker 3:

Well, and I'll ask him I'm like, do you think the affair partners out of the picture? Ah right, didn't even know before that there was an affair partner. I know before you never thought you had a husband who would cheat like. I understand that. But what is your gut telling you right now? Is he still talking to her or not? And they're accurate, they're right. Yeah, yeah, once you see it, you can't not not see it anymore. You know right right.

Speaker 1:

So let's touch on Um briefly. What signs should someone look for that indicate cheating will happen again? And you have Mentioned a phrase run, girl, run. I mean, when does a spouse run, and when do they actually really stay in the marriage? And when they do run, what does that even look like? I know that's there's a few questions in there, but uh.

Speaker 3:

One girl run is when they come to me and I hear definite traits of narcissism. I mean, everyone thinks that they're cheating husbands and narcissists, but they're really. It's just like when you heard or discovered or was revealed whatever your husband cheated. There's a moment it's like your life flashes before your eyes, your marriage flashes before your eyes, and so when saying like, has it overall been a good marriage? You know, when women are like I can't tell my family and friends that they're going to be crushed and broken hearted because my husband was one of the good men, right, just not. Everyone's going to be like, thank God, you finally see it. Like, thank God, will you get out now, right? So those are big things.

Speaker 3:

The constant, not doing the work. Just why do you want to look at my phone? Well, what do you think I want to look at your phone? Continuated mcgator behavior and any contact with the affair partner? Oh go, we can just be friends. What do you want me to do? Where to gather the blaming? Well, maybe if you did this or we had sex, or like I wouldn't have had to cheat. All of that turning around on you is signs, and the number one thing is if you're not married and you don't have children, right, right, even if you're made, go married with kids. Consider staying again the snow globe. Don't make any big decisions while you're on an emotional roller coaster. We all know that that's true. You shouldn't make big decisions like that. But if you're, if you're not married, go go countless. Oh yeah, when we were engaged, or when we first this, he cheated on me or, and what do you know, he did it again.

Speaker 1:

You know, like, oh, well, I think it's important to emphasize and you had mentioned this, dr Madden cheating is never the fault of the spouse. So when do you recommend, dr Madden, someone partner up with a divorce coach such as myself?

Speaker 3:

Whether he's a narcissist or not. I understand. He's not on your team. It's not on your team. He was on the team with someone else. He also wasn't thinking about the impact to your children, right, right. So that's really hard because, as a loyal wife, you, your spouse, you believe the best interests of you and your kids, except he's shown no matter what the level of cheating or how much or whatever such a bad judgment. Right, so the person you would normally hopefully be able to turn to for crisis guidance financial, what do we do with these kids? Okay, we don't know him anymore, right, not on your team anymore, but that you were primed to believe he is on your team. Right, that's where and people find it funny because I am a pro-merge therapist when I say I think it's time for you to meet with an divorce attorney, a divorce coach or whatever Because you had someone who was able to lie to your face at least once, if not multiple times, multiple people for years. He has an ability to be dark, unique partner to help you see the way you can be manipulated because you're going in even though you've been devastated, but you're really like, oh, he can't be that bad. He's lied to you to your face and made you feel crazy, gaslit you and all of this stuff. You need someone to give you a strategy because I will let you know.

Speaker 3:

Men go into business mode. This is again. Men and women are different. Men go into business mode. They literally say to me Dr Caroline, I know I will always take care of my family and my kids, but they're going to be damned if they're going to be having to do it on paper. That's usually used as a manipulation later. If he doesn't like her dating other people and starts to reel the money in Women I call it living in the land of regrets women in order to be nice. Or maybe he will come back to me, or maybe I've always trusted him to be a confrater. Leave money on the table.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. We've got a few minutes left in the episode, so I just wanted to mention with some clients I start forming a relationship with them before some have ever made that difficult decision to file for divorce. Most of my clients want me to help them strategically navigate what it may look like going forward and transitioning to the next chapter out of their marriage. They can feel so scary, overwhelming, and some of my clients that have been cheated on have a lot of anger, resentment and they feel like they want revenge. Yes, revenge.

Speaker 2:

Revenge is very tasty but not good for us, and that is so understandable.

Speaker 3:

There were coaches out there. But what, tessa, you do? You're a chess master. You see all of the moves before they've even been played in an amazing like the matrix type way, saying the binary okay. In that, yes, it might be your answers like I'm okay, I'm okay with you leaving me for the affair partner and understanding he feels guilty and he wants to give you more or he really wants to be out of that marriage with you so he can marry the new person.

Speaker 1:

Yeah right.

Speaker 3:

So we might be not doing squirts to earth. It might be, and again, this is Tessa's the expert. That's why you are who you are is you see it all and the multi dimensions of how it could go, and people have no clue. It's your first divorce you're going through. You love this man. You can't believe he cheated on you.

Speaker 2:

You know, divorce can be such a it is a complicated thing. There's so many facets of it. Infidelity is a terrible facet of it, but it's a reality. It's a reality. And so, while infidelity may not be the sole reason for divorce in California, it is quite a large part of it and it can have an impact on the outcome of a divorce. Right, I mean, that's what we're talking about right now and sort of just understanding that, playing that, and I think that if anybody is on this sort of precipice of having to make a decision, they may they may not decide to file for divorce, but I think they should consult a divorce coach to just sort of get a lay of the land. You know it's a highly emotional time Getting an unbiased professionals opinion, that's. You know you haven't vested all this crazy information with your family and your friends and your coworkers. If you reach out to a divorce attorney, they can sort of tell you hey, this is what you should expect and you can make a more informed decision.

Speaker 3:

I'm going to interrupt you, tessa. There's actually a marriage positive reason to do this. The thing is, once you have a secret from your spouse, who's been keeping secrets from you with infidelity and all of that nonsense okay, and you are meeting with a divorce coach and beginning the separating from a we to an I. He went from a way to being a we with someone else. Okay. So, going from the way to the I, you start to vibe differently. And so the band, who's clearly taking you for granted, because one of the reasonable assumptions is, if you get caught cheating, your wife's going to leave you. I mean, that's like a reasonable assumption. Okay, right, something you didn't think through that mix. And there you are, loving and taking care of his children and trying to make it all work. That when you start saying maybe I don't want to be in this, you're not telling him, by the way, never say you met with the divorce attorney, never, ever say you met with the divorce coach.

Speaker 1:

And that is a way of chasing Kim 100% need to do it all on your own. Before I talk a little bit about the legalities of how infidelity affects like a divorce settlement, I think there's a disclaimer.

Speaker 2:

Yes, important to read that. Always a disclaimer. So the Unhinged but Not Unhinged podcast and content posted by Tessa James is presented solely for general information, entertainment purposes and educational purposes.

Speaker 1:

Right and I'm your friend and professional coach not an attorney here to serve you and I've always got your back. So it's important to note. In California, the process might be different from what many people expect due to the state's no fault divorce laws. So, even though the pain and betrayal of infidelity can feel monumental, it typically doesn't have a large impact on legal outcomes such as asset division, alimony and child custody, although there are exceptions. So California is a no fault divorce state, but what that means is that neither party has to prove that the other is at fault for the impact on the. You know at fault, sorry for the marriage ending.

Speaker 1:

This includes infidelity. However, while cheating may not be the sole reason for a divorce, it can still have an impact on the outcome of the actual divorce settlement. So one of the ways that cheating can impact a divorce settlement is through spousal support, and if one spouse can prove that the other was unfaithful, the court may take that into consideration when deciding on the amount and duration of spousal support, and in some cases, the court may even deny spousal support altogether. Also, infidelity can also have an impact on child custody arrangements, for instance, if one parent's extramarital affair is deemed to be detrimental to the child's well-being, the court may limit that parent's custody or visitation rights and the court's primary concern is always the best interests of the child, and infidelity can be seen as a factor that could negatively impact the child.

Speaker 1:

Folks, I have a real estate license in the state of California and I can tell you adultery can impact property division. Infidelity is divided equally in a divorce. However, if one spouse spent a significant amount of community property on an affair or gave gifts to the paramour, the other spouse may be entitled to a larger portion of the community property. This is because the court may view the spending of gifting as a breach of fiduciary duty.

Speaker 2:

It's a huge topic. Dr Madden, do you have anything to add before we wrap up?

Speaker 3:

No, no, but when infidelity has happened, he's not on your team anymore and so you need to create a new village around you that has perspective, has been through it. You have someone to guide you and be objective, to help you get through what you need to hear and hear how your kids might be used against you and all of that you just you need to know, and it could be a marriage positive thing. Just because you meet with a divorce coach does not mean you're divorcing, that's right Right. But it means you start vibing differently, that he needs to show up and act differently or you're out. Plus, you feel so much less scared. Call a divorce, call Tessa, you will definitely feel less scared.

Speaker 2:

Yes, thank you so much for joining us, and if you're interested in chatting with Tessa, please go to wwwtrustintessacom and book a complimentary discovery session with her. And also don't forget to visit Dr Madden at wwwcarolinemaddencom.

Speaker 1:

Have a positive and productive day and remember I've got your back, she's got your back.