Unhitched But Not Unhinged Podcast

E4: Navigating Divorce with Grace: Insights from Legal and Coaching Experts

• Tessa James • Episode 4

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Discover the keys to navigating the divorce process with grace and clarity as we welcome our Attorney, Amy Lass, and our Divorce Coaches, Tessa James and Chelsea Bullen to our latest episode. Amy, a seasoned expert in family law, and Chelsea, her former client turned dedicated divorce coach, offer invaluable insights into managing expectations within the divorce court system. They share their unique perspectives on the distinct roles of therapists and divorce coaches, emphasizing how practical guidance and emotional support can make a significant difference during this challenging time.

Gain a deeper understanding of how the judicial system operates in divorce cases, and why it's crucial to have realistic expectations. Tessa, Amy, and Chelsea debunk common misconceptions about the court's role, focusing on the importance of resolving issues outside of the courtroom. By setting clear goals and adhering to legal standards, they explain how you can avoid unnecessary legal battles, save money, and maintain your well-being. Their advice on managing emotional turmoil with the help of divorce coaches is particularly enlightening, offering practical strategies to navigate the divorce process more efficiently.

High-conflict divorces and their impact on children are also a central theme in this episode. Amy and Chelsea discuss how labeling a case as high-conflict can exacerbate tensions, and share practical approaches to manage disputes more effectively. They stress the importance of moving past blame and focusing on building a new life while ensuring the well-being of the children involved. Personal anecdotes and practical examples highlight the psychological effects on children when parents disparage each other, underscoring the need for a collaborative approach. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to make healthy decisions for their family during a divorce.

TESSA JAMES

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Tessa James:

Well, good morning. I'm Tessa James, your host of Unhitched but Not Unhinged podcast, where you are able to get very informative information, very real information about all things divorce, pre-filing, in the midst of a difficult divorce and even post-divorce, and in your journey on healing. And I'm so excited today to welcome our Attorney, Amy Lass, and my Co-Host, Chelsea Bullen, and they're going to talk a little bit about what they do and what made them come to family law and divorce coaching within itself, and today's theme and topic really is realistic expectations within the judicial system. So thanks for joining us. Amy, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Amy Lass:

Thanks for having me, Tessa and Chelsea. I am a Divorce Attorney a Family Law Attorney, as some of us like to call it In Carlsbad, California. We represent clients all over the county of San Diego. I am a partner at Griffith, young and Lass. We are located in Carlsbad and I would say I specialize in conflict resolution, so mediations wanting to resolve your case outside of court. I've been to court more times than I can count. I still spend a lot of time there, but my goal is to keep you out of the court system to the best of my ability, to provide you direct and logical insight into your divorce to help you get out of it as unscathed as you possibly can. Excellent goal.

Chelsea Bullen:

Chelsea, my name is Chelsea Bullen and Amy was actually my divorce attorney. She inspired me to become a divorce coach and now I work with her and I would say also, my goal is to help you get through the process as unscathed as possible, with the kids' well-being at the forefront of your divorce decisions.

Tessa James:

What we can offer as coaches basically walking them through this tumultuous time and doing a lot of hand-holding, but also saving them money.

Amy Lass:

Yeah.

Tessa James:

So important, but also saving them money yeah, so important. And like you, Chelsea, I was also inspired by a very good friend who is a family, a family therapist in Los Angeles, and she kind of put or planted the seed a few years ago and said you know, you should, really you should do this. And I had never heard of a divorce coach and it is a rather new profession. But I personally predict that almost every family law firm, at some point in the next five years even, will have in-house coaches that they assign to specific clients. Does that make sense, Amy?

Amy Lass:

It does and people will often say or question my recommendation to say, well, shouldn't I just go to my therapist? A therapist role is very different than a divorce coach's role. A therapist role is to support a client in the position they're in and help them navigate feelings. A divorce coach is really there to facilitate the client's perspective mindset and help them navigate, separating emotional from legal issues. And if the lawyer and the divorce coach know each other well enough Chelsea knows my personality she's able to say to clients Amy's not going to want to hear any of what you're about to tell her. Save yourself the money, because I'm going to tell you what Amy's response is going to be. It's not a legal question, it's like going to a doctor for, like, gastric bypass surgery.

Chelsea Bullen:

He doesn't care why you got fat Right, he just wants to like fix the problem.

Amy Lass:

Right.

Chelsea Bullen:

He doesn't want to talk you through that and I know one of the big questions I get same thing what's the difference between therapist and a divorce coach? And I always say it's like your therapist unpacks and they talk about why you're at this point A divorce coach is like a personal trainer they just want to get you in a better place.

Amy Lass:

They're going to fold the suitcase and get you on the airplane. The therapist is going to unpack each article of clothing and shake it out and let all the dust settle and talk about your childhood. Your divorce coach is not going to do that.

Tessa James:

We're not going to talk about anybody's childhood, we are literally going to look If a client is potentially pre-file. You know, that's that stage where you're kind of gearing up and you're getting ready to file and there's a lot of unanswered questions and a lot of what ifs and I think we can come in and help strategize and get them really, really prepared.

Tessa James:

Absolutely so when they are ready to file. Sometimes it even takes a year or two for somebody to be actually ready to file, and then we can match them with an attorney that best suits their needs. Absolutely yeah, I think it's really important.

Chelsea Bullen:

Well, on that emotional stuff you can't do anything about, nope. So I think it's important. You're expensive, we're a lot more affordable, and I do think divorce is unique in that it is transactional at that point when you decide to leave, but it's also incredibly emotional, the grieving process. You know, like you're never going to have a Mother's Day the way you used to have, and it was almost the things I didn't anticipate to trigger me were the most surprising. Like I bumped into my co-parents one of his best friends and I immediately was like, wow, this person isn't going to be my friend anymore. Right, and I wasn't prepared for that, yeah, but like I wouldn't call you about that, I would call, or.

Amy Lass:

but you may get an email from me about a legal issue and your response may be different because of the mindset you're hear from a client. I feel like you're not fighting for me when there is an emotional response that they're expecting from me and I don't want to waste your money processing this emotional response because it's not getting me any closer to getting this finished for you. So it's not a lack of empathy, it's just how do I get you from point A to point B as unscathed as I possibly can. Lean on your divorce coach for that. Call your divorce coach and share how painful that was to run into Billy Bob when the relationship has changed. But calling me with that doesn't. It doesn't move the case forward and I'm charging you by the hour because that's the way this works.

Tessa James:

Well, I think this is a good time to segue into our main topic and main theme for this podcast, which is setting realistic expectations, and can you elaborate on that?

Amy Lass:

And I guess I would ask each of you if, if, how you would answer that, because I'm going to tell you what it is, but I'd be curious to get what do you think the role of the court is in a divorce?

Tessa James:

Well, I mean, first and foremost, the role of the court is to make sure the law is upheld. Yep, exactly.

Amy Lass:

So the court's there to divide your marital property Right by law right. It's there to determine child custody and visitation We'll get into that and it's there to establish child and spousal support if it's warranted in your particular case and really, like you said, apply the law to the facts of your case. And the first thing I'll ask people is do you have a prenup? They say no. What they mean by that is my husband or wife and I didn't seek out legal legal counsel and get a written prenup. But they do have a prenup. It's called the family code and I guarantee you most people getting divorced have never read it.

Amy Lass:

So the law says how your property is going to be divided. The law says how child and spousal support are going to be paid and the law says how your property is going to be divided. The law says how child and spousal support are going to be paid and the law says how the court determines custody and visitation. So if we really strip it down to those three issues, that is the expectation everyone should have of the court. Those are really the three big things that the court is there to do. I think people in the court system often lose sight of how many tens of thousands of people come through the court system on probably a monthly basis. So judges see it all, they hear it all and they're not there to get into the nuances of your lifestyle or your spouse or the specific needs of your children. To the extent they don't interfere with the best interest analysis.

Tessa James:

For example, if I'm getting divorced and all I'm interested in or the most important thing to me is gaining custody of our children, right? And I say to my soon-to-be ex-husband I don't want spousal, I don't want alimony, in fact, you can even keep the house, I just want the children. The court won't even. That's not even allowed. You can't even do that.

Amy Lass:

I mean the court, if you're standing in front of the judge. No, the judge is going to compartmentalize. Here's what I'm doing with the house. Here's what I'm doing with support. Here's what I'm doing with your kids.

Amy Lass:

You and your husband could certainly reach an agreement outside of court, which I recommend for anybody getting Sure. But people have to have expectations on what the court is going to do, and I think the bigger letdown for people is what the court will not do, and I think that's what we should spend some time talking about. So what the court is not going to do in your divorce is referee parenting choices. The court is not going to. I think sometimes my clients have an unrealistic expectation that the judge is like at the soccer game or the judges in the group thread when your husband's being a jerk. The court's not there to referee that. The court isn't there to call your spouse an asshole. The court isn't there to tell you your spouse is a narcissist, which I hear all the time, typically on a first consult, my ex is a narcissist. Sure, well, that's just a fact, or not, but it doesn't change. I don't then go from handling a case one way to advising you a different way. Sure, it does help me understand who I'm dealing with on the other side. But it doesn't change how the proceeds of your house are going to get divided or who's going to get the minivan. Sure, right, he may be a narcissist, but the minivan is still worth $20,000. Right.

Amy Lass:

So the court is not there to referee parenting choices. The court's also not there to pass, I guess, referee parenting choices. The court's also not there to pass, I guess, moral judgments on. You know the way you choose to raise your children or live your life Right. I had a client call me last week really upset that dad feeds her son late. Right. And as much as as a mother, I understand that no one wants their kids eating at nine, 30 at night. You know, does it happen in my household, sometimes Guilty, you know. But I can't walk into court and say you know, your honor, take custody away from this man.

Chelsea Bullen:

He's dating him too late.

Tessa James:

He's dating him too late, the court would just be like he's fed. Yeah, that's what the court cares about, right?

Amy Lass:

Yeah, so the the? You know we often think that the judge has the parenting benchmark, where you may have it or where you may have it, but that's not their role. They may have personal beliefs about what time to feed a child, but they have to separate those from their role as a judicial officer on the bench. And then emotional and personal grievances and that's where the divorce coaches is really important to keep my sanity and to keep me in this career as long as I've been in it. But emotional and personal grievances will cloud someone's ability to go through a divorce unscathed, without paying a lawyer a lot of money, right? And that's where you guys become so helpful, because you're able to let them share their emotional and personal grievances, maybe even align with them to tell them how terrible their ex is, but then help them communicate with me in a way that's effective, right. So I think those are important things to remember and people often lose sight of them. Just, you know, we're seeing, like I said, really good people going through a really grief stricken time in their life. So it's it's important to set realistic, realistic expectations.

Amy Lass:

I often tell people you have to focus on your legal rights and your responsibilities, right? What? What are your legal rights and what are your responsibilities as a parent, as someone getting divorced? Um, you know, sometimes I'll get from clients well, why do I have to follow the rules if he doesn't? You know I don't operate that way. It's like talking to a child in, you know, at preschool. If your child gets hit, you're not going to tell them we'll hit back, or maybe you will, but it doesn't help my client to then poorly behave because the other side's behaving misbehaving, because then the only people that win are the lawyers, because we're writing letters back and forth over, you know, johnny, bringing a soda to school, and it nobody benefits but me.

Chelsea Bullen:

Yeah, then we're paying for your kid's college, not our kid's college, exactly?

Amy Lass:

And I often say that put your kid through college, not mine.

Tessa James:

And as much as you don't want or need to deal with that side. The judge even less. Oh, yes, I mean he or she is sitting on the bench and they see how many cases throughout the day, throughout the month. Oh, so many. In my opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong they are really looking to us, you, to make their job quick, speedy, easy, state of the facts and move forward.

Amy Lass:

Correct. I, you know I'm I'm not a judge, but I picture myself in that mindset sometimes before I go into court and I think what I'd probably say to people and it's not politically correct is I didn't marry your spouse, you did right. The things you're complaining about or you're frustrated with are things you've always known Right. You chose to have children with this person. It's not this. None of this should be a surprise to you, but it's interesting how, all of a sudden, the things that were so normalized in a marriage are weaponized in a court proceeding.

Chelsea Bullen:

That's one of the things we learned about in our coaching.

Chelsea Bullen:

It's you know the relationship starts here and you. It's a cycle and you tend to like, at the beginning, ignore these things and then the next phase is you kind of double down, like I've ignored all these red flags. If I admit to these red flags, then like I'm the idiot, for even like, entering into this marriage, which is where doing a prenup prior to marriage it doesn't mean you're preparing for your marriage to fail. It means that you're saving yourself so much. If it does Right and with 50, 50 odds, like why would you not go into it with like realistic expectations?

Amy Lass:

Yeah, I mean, the thing I see most often is a party that sacrifices a career to stay home and raise kids. And when I have, I've had a lot of prenups lately, actually premarital agreement consultations, and it's so great to be able to educate someone. I put them in the mindset of, let's say, you're married 15 years, your spouse continues to work at this level and is earning this much a divorce and you don't have a career and I run a support simulation for them. This is the amount of support you would arguably get if everything stayed as it is in today's circumstances and the law doesn't change and they're like well, I can't live off that. So perhaps I saved somebody from sacrificing a career to stay home. Who will, you know, in turn, be better off if they get divorced because it's expensive to live here?

Chelsea Bullen:

in Southern California. It's almost more premarital education as opposed to prenup and like preparing for divorce. It's just you know, and on the other flip side I know we've talked about this it's also showing the person who's working. This is what you're gonna have to give, and they're like what.

Amy Lass:

I know we'll hire a nanny, because a nanny for a couple hundred bucks a month or a couple thousand a month is well worth my spouse maintaining and fostering a career and not feeling dependent. And I think that can create a lot of fractures in a marriage when there's a sense of dependency. And then you know you go into a marriage that most people haven't had children yet.

Chelsea Bullen:

Rose-colored glasses yeah.

Amy Lass:

And then the dynamic of working and raising children and you know the fast paced society we, the life we live. It can change a lot of things. So having some stability and understanding of what the marital relationship looks like, both while married and if divorced, can really minimize conflict in the event of a divorce Right.

Chelsea Bullen:

The happiest marriages I know both people work.

Amy Lass:

Yeah, and that's a totally separate podcast conversation which we could dive into because I have so much to say on that and not to discredit stay at home parents they work harder than some of us that work out in the workforce, but it is a very interesting point of discussion.

Tessa James:

I mean, I personally, uh, both did both. I did work during my marriage and I did stay home during my marriage, and I was fortunate enough to stay home because my husband at the time made a significant income. However, I will tell you, I did feel very dependent, which I didn't really was not a good feeling for me, definitely not for you, yeah. And when it was time to realize that I need to get out of the marriage, I felt really kind of stuck, and that was a word, that and a feeling that kept, you know, kept with me.

Chelsea Bullen:

That was tough. That's very common. Yeah, a lot of women feel that and I, like you, gave up my career and then had my first kid and it was like I remember just feeling like I had to ask for every may I please be allowed to buy a pair of maternity jeans? My, my pair has a hole and it was well you don't need those. Like just sew the hole. I'm like this is bullshit. I'm going to go back and like do something just so I have a little bit of spending money, right. And then that kind of turned into me like going back into a part time career, right, I was really lucky with what I kind of fell into, but I think I would have been trapped in my marriage had I not had that income. Yeah, it's tough, and I'd still be living together.

Amy Lass:

For sure. And and I think that, um, you know, you, at some point having a child with someone, you, you had to have recognized some positive traits, right? Regardless of how you feel about an ex-husband, um, you know whether he was good with them in the pool or you know really good at doing. Here comes the airplane If you focus on the positives, yes, at separation and through the conflict, yes, it can minimize a lot of attorney's fees and getting into what I call the torpedo, which is the court system, and then you're just, you can't win once you're in it. Yeah, because it'll take you down faster than you realize.

Tessa James:

Listen, I think it takes a lot of emotional maturity while you're going through a divorce to say to yourself you know what he or she was not a good spouse and separate that from the actual parent that they are. You know they could be a fantastic parent and they deserve that credit. That's important.

Chelsea Bullen:

I found one thing that was really helpful for me to pull in my emotions and my anger at times, or my just gosh, I can't believe we're here and I can't believe he's doing this and he's behaving this way. I always brought it back to my kids. How will this impact my kids? And I was always able to completely bury my own ego for the sake of my kids, and I was always able to completely bury my own ego for the sake of my kids.

Tessa James:

What does it mean, amy? I have a quick question. Yeah, you hear the phrase. In the best interest of their child.

Amy Lass:

Right. Right, because in that situation homeschool mom says homeschooling is best and you know, public school dad says public school is best. That is not the best interest the court's analyzing. Going to school is what the court's looking to. Is the child in school at the appropriate times and getting there every day? So see how cloudy that becomes very quickly when you look to the court system to fix your problems. So best interest is a very hard standard for the judge because, like I said earlier, the judges don't. They're not inside your home, they're not with your child at all, so they have to rely on.

Amy Lass:

In San Diego County we use family court services, which is a mediation process required before anyone comes to family court on a custody motion. But they're relying on a short, maybe one hour, interview with a social worker to determine the best schedule for a child. Aren't you and the other parent the people most knowledgeable with what's best? Why would you want somebody else deciding that? And there are the cases that we simply can't resolve, where there's abuse, where there's mental illness, where there's addiction issues. Those cases must be so hard, they're heartbreaking, but they're few and far between when it comes to most cases, we see, which is why resolving your matter outside of court. If you can.

Tessa James:

The court should be your last go-to, yeah, your last resort, outside of court, if you can, the court should be your last go-to, your last resort. But in a lot of cases, when it's high conflict and either party is not willing to give and can't compromise or negotiate, right I mean?

Amy Lass:

but what I will often ask in those cases. People will call me and I'll have an initial consult and they will say my case is high conflict. I stopped them. Okay, why do you call it that? Okay? So that is where I would bring one of you in to say tell me why you're calling your case high conflict. Um, let's say the response is well, he cheated on me. Does that make a case high conflict? It shouldn't. Um, high conflict is a choice. It it, exactly. It it, but it. And you know, one judge I love always says Snow White doesn't marry Darth Vader right. So can someone be so terrible but then have a spouse who's so innocent? I don't know. I mean maybe in rare circumstances.

Amy Lass:

So you know it's it. You know, labeling a case, high conflict, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? You label your case high conflict, then it becomes high conflict. You go higher and higher. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy Absolutely, absolutely. And does it take a bigger person to maybe text their spouse and say can we go sit down over coffee and bring a divorce coach? We can each bring our own and see if we can just squash this. Do people do that?

Tessa James:

Very rarely, right, but that is an option, and that's why getting the word out and people should do that.

Chelsea Bullen:

You would save so much money.

Amy Lass:

Right, yeah, I mean, you really, really would. If everyone had a divorce coach and an attorney on their side, you could settle a divorce at a table with a mediator if you wanted one. So you each have your attorney, you each have your divorce coach and you sit at a table. You could spend a day settling a case that could take six years in the court system, and stay tuned for that because that's a whole nother podcast. Yeah Right, ambitious ladies sitting here. We have lots to do in our lifetime.

Chelsea Bullen:

I remember just telling myself a lot of times because you hear the same in a divorce, the other person.

Chelsea Bullen:

I kept hearing this you chose this, you chose this reality is like we both chose to like really neglect each other in the marriage. That's why, yes, I finally was the one to just call a spade a spade, but to keep rehashing you chose this, you chose this, you chose. I finally had to just think of it as like an elephant swatting a fly away, like he's just a fly on an elephant's ass, you know, but if you were his?

Amy Lass:

divorce coach and he kept coming to you saying she chose this. What would your response be to him?

Chelsea Bullen:

I would probably say whether or not she chose, it is moot. Exactly. How are you going to build a new life? It's done Exactly.

Tessa James:

So what are we going to do? You should have hired her. What are we?

Chelsea Bullen:

going to do, because, being stuck on this hamster wheel of she chose this. You're holding your life back 100%.

Amy Lass:

It did change the outcome of your divorce.

Chelsea Bullen:

It just cost us tens of thousands more dollars.

Amy Lass:

We could have written that across every she chose this across every paper of the judgment. It wouldn't have changed it.

Chelsea Bullen:

Oh, I was ready to be done and sign things because I knew after conversations with you it doesn't matter if you were stay-at-home mom Monday through Friday and he was working 7.30 to 1 am. You are not going to get custody that much if he wants 50-50. If he wants 50-50, california is going to give it to him or there's going to be a plan to get him to that point. Yeah, so just accept it.

Amy Lass:

The court's not going to punish a parent for dynamics in the marriage that worked for the family, right If he was working hard while you were staying home. The court's not going to punish him for that and say, because you chose to work hard and let her stay home, you don't get your kids. It can't be punitive like that.

Tessa James:

So elaborate on what is good for your case is bad for your kids and that's something I say probably five times a day.

Amy Lass:

And what I mean when I say that what's good for your case is bad for your kids is all of the clients say you know, I'm just positive, he's not going to get the kids to school on time. He never took them to school and they're never going to be there on time. And let's say the court gives this person equal custody, so he is responsible for getting the kids to school three days a week. Well, let's say it doesn't happen. Let's say a truancy letter comes because there's 28 late attorneys, right? Well, I've got now exhibit A to the court to say your Honor, it's not working, right? She gave him the benefit of the doubt because the court system told her she had to and he's proven he can't do it.

Amy Lass:

What would have been really good for your kids is if dad could have stepped up and got the kids to school on time. Sure, what's good for her case is that he didn't Right. So it's a complete. What's good for her case is bad for her kids because now her kids have been late for 28 days and dad wasn't able, or mom wasn't able, to step into their role of equal parent and get the kids to school on time. So that's why I say that. Um, you know, in alcohol related cases it comes up often a parent concerned that the other parent's going to drink and drive, despite having no DUIs or no criminal history. Um, the court system is not a proactive system. The court system is not going to say because you're telling me you're worried, he's going to do it, I think it's going to happen and therefore I'm not going to let him have the kids without some history and it hasn't happened yet, right yeah?

Amy Lass:

So what's good for your case is bad for your kids. A DUI with the kids in the car, god forbid. Terrible for your kids. Good for your case because you were trying to prove he shouldn't be driving with the kids, so in that case is like custody kind of. No, because what, like you just said, what will ultimately happen is the court will put restrictions in place, alcohol testing in place and that parent will get an opportunity to prove that they can maintain sobriety.

Chelsea Bullen:

Right and the reality is. I mean some of these cases are very extreme when there's drugs and alcohol Very but in a normal circumstance I may hate my ex, but I also knew my children needed both of us and they need both of us equally, like they need a dad as much as they need a mom. And I never I just accepted the 50, 50. I was like, if he can do it, more power to him. My kids are seeing their dad not at all right now. So if he can figure it out right, do it. It'd probably be great for my kids, like boys need their dad.

Tessa James:

Yeah and Chelsea. That is a demonstration of emotional maturity. However, there are women and men that are going through a divorce that their main concern is revenge Right.

Amy Lass:

Yes, you don't get revenge in family court, right? You know, watch a Netflix series and feel like you get your revenge that way. It doesn't play out like it does in the movies. Like you get your revenge that way. It doesn't play out like it does in the movies.

Amy Lass:

You know a lot of judicial officers. When faced with a high conflict case, I've seen many of them say to two parties sitting in a courtroom your child is half of both of you. So when you sit here and disparage your act to your child, you're putting down your child Well, and that's from a psychological standpoint.

Chelsea Bullen:

That's how they see it as well. Right, I'm half of my mom, so if she's a liar, she's this, she's that. I am too. I inherited that. I'm half of that. I'm part of that and the revenge tactics and making decisions out of spite. The only person that pays in that scenario in a negative way are the kids.

Amy Lass:

And the only person that wins is me and I won't even do it.

Amy Lass:

But a lot of lawyers will indulge clients. So many wonderful lawyers out there, but some will indulge clients because that's what the client wants and that's not my lawyering philosophy. I'd rather lose a client or have them fire me than write a letter about late dinners. Um, because I know ultimately I'm fueling a fire that will never be put out, right, right? Um, unless I have a pediatrician writing a letter to the court saying there's neglect here because dinner is not being fed, right? Um, then I have something.

Tessa James:

Yeah, what do you think about Amy? Um, what do you think about a spouse soon-to-be ex-spouse sitting down with their children and explaining what is going on between mom and dad, talking about the divorce, giving the children their perception, their story?

Chelsea Bullen:

question we should answer I do I bring it up?

Tessa James:

because a big term and a very controversial term is parent alienation which the court won't recognize.

Amy Lass:

Okay, I've had really great clients recently that I'm not mediating, that I'm representing, saying we'd like to tell the kids, offer us guidance. I say call a therapist. I am not, I don't have mental health experience and I am not trained. There are wonderful therapists out there who will offer you both insight into how to best tell your kids. And I had a client recently um, he's a good friend and unfortunately his marriage didn't work. And you know, he told me we're going to tell the kids and I'm, I'm, I'm. He was so nervous and you know I just kept saying it's going to be okay, not really knowing Um. So he ended up calling me after and he's like Amy, it went, they didn't even really seem to care. Right, all my daughter cared about is what her new room color was going to be painted Like. Not that she didn't care, but the conversation to him was so much bigger in his mind and I think ultimately it was kids. Kids know.

Chelsea Bullen:

They sure do. I almost feel like when you finally have the conversation with your children, there's this like sigh of relief, like finally there isn't an elephant in the room anymore, like finally we can all just be honest and like move on. Yeah, you know, yeah, I remember a good friend of mine saying my oldest son went to her and it was the day we were signing papers and they knew that that's where we were because, you know, grandma and grandpa were watching them. And she said that, jack, my oldest son came up to her and said I'm so relieved. Oh, my parents are like finalizing this and I'm so relieved that was the word he used. And I was like, wow, like talk about emotional maturity, you know from a child, but when they see you, not interacting, sleeping in separate rooms or arguing.

Chelsea Bullen:

Whatever the case may be, they are not dumb. And especially when they get to an age where they're with other families and obviously other couples interact, it becomes even more obvious that you don't have what you should have.

Amy Lass:

Yes, yeah and I. There's a guy at my gym that, um, I was talking to. He asked me what I did and told him I was a divorce attorney and he said, oh, he's, he's gotta be in his twenties. He said my parents are getting divorced. Oh, I'm so sorry which which I don't normally say because I don't like to say that but right, he wasn't the one getting divorced. I don't ever say that to someone who tells me they're getting divorced, um, and he said, amy, they should have done it when I was five. I'm sad for them. They wasted 19 years staying married, right, and I thought, wow, he's known all this time and likely the parents held on for him and he wished they had done it two decades ago. So totally separate podcast episode we'll do about the decision to stay for the kids and hopefully we'll bring a therapist in and you can help us with that, because I think that's something every woman grapples with.

Chelsea Bullen:

Yes, 100%, you know I mean.

Amy Lass:

The social stigma, the decision to leave and the heartbreak to the kids.

Tessa James:

I know, I know I wrestled with that. That was my first and foremost thought was you know, do I, do I stay this unhappy marriage or do I leave now? Great, and that was very difficult.

Chelsea Bullen:

Well, living in Southern California, like you're no longer desirable to men unless you're 25.

Amy Lass:

So I remember, I know you were going to be great. My she's going to date tonight. Yeah.

Chelsea Bullen:

It's great. But I think a lot of women tell themselves that Of course, oh sure, who's going to want to date a divorcee with? You know, whatever the story is, you know, we, your inner critic we, we talk ourselves out of leaving something that is so unhealthy and we need to not not do that anymore.

Amy Lass:

And that's why, when someone says to me I'm going through a divorce, I never say oh, I'm so sorry. Um, you know, it's not like you're telling me someone died, it's right. How can I be supportive and empower you?

Tessa James:

Yes. And that is what it's all about is empowering our clients, helping them build resilience and keeping them from getting lost in the minutia of the clarity, the noise.

Chelsea Bullen:

We've talked about that a lot A hundred percent.

Tessa James:

Yeah Well, Amy, I'm so happy that you were able to make it, and Chelsea, you too. I really enjoyed our conversation today. I agree, Tanya. I think it was very informative, and thank you everybody. This is another episode of Unhinged but not Unhinged, and we'll see you next time. Thank you everybody. This is another episode of Unhitched but n not Unhinged, and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much.