Balanced Blueprints Podcast

E4F2: A Holistic Strategy to Financial Planning and Retirement

• Justin Gaines & John Proper

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Embark on a journey to your dream retirement with guidance from financial gurus Justin Gaines and John Prover, who join us to unravel the complexities of retirement planning tailored to your utopian vision. Whether you're yearning for serene local living or globetrotting adventures, we lay out a roadmap to calculate the wealth you'll need by incorporating year-round tax strategies and tackling geographical and lifestyle costs, adjusted for inflation. As we traverse the landscape of financial preparedness, we highlight the pivotal role of insurance in safeguarding your future without undercutting your investment endeavors—ensuring that every move you make today fortifies the retirement of your dreams.

Dive into the art of balancing debts against investments, where we unearth the wisdom behind prioritizing financial choices that resonate with your personal comfort and logical reasoning. We illustrate the delicate interplay between emotional tolerance to debt and the practicality of investment returns, underlining the need for bespoke strategies. With an eye on the future, we also stress the significance of nurturing a holistic financial diet, mirroring the way balanced nutrition bolsters physical health. Through candid discussions on risk tolerance evolution and the merits of diversification, along with a critical examination of life insurance policies, this episode arms you with the savvy to steer your financial ship confidently towards a secure and fulfilling horizon.

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Justing Gaines:

There's a thousand ways to get to your retirement plan and your retirement end goal. There's generally only three or four, though, that are going to work for you. Welcome to the Bounds Blueprints podcast, where we discuss the optimal techniques for finances and health and then break it down to create an individualized and balanced plan. I'm your host, justin Gaines, here with my co-host, john Prover. In this episode, we discuss how to identify your goals for retirement, how inflation can eat away at those goals and whether or not you should pay down your debts or invest the difference. Thank you for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoy it.

Justing Gaines:

Ironically, it ties into a lot of the conversations I've been having with my clients lately about not looking at what the long-term impacts are of their financial plans A lot of the science that I've been working with, especially over the last week, and because we're in the talent of the year, which I know, this podcast is going to get posted not at the talent of the year most likely it'll be in the beginning of a year. It'll sound a little bit nuanced here, but, given that we're at the end of the year, a lot of people are starting to think about taxes and starting to quote unquote tax plan. I would say they're more tax reacting because they're thinking about the taxes in December and they should have been thinking about their taxes January through December. They're tax reacting instead of tax planning and tax strategizing throughout the year. But when we start talking about their financial retirement plans and what they're doing for retirement, almost always the conversations that they've had and they're experienced with if they've talked to a financial advisor or if they're just interested in finances is the accumulation period, so putting away for retirement. But when I flip the conversation and say, okay, that's all fine and dandy, that makes sense, we can talk about that.

Justing Gaines:

But I need to know what your retirement utopia looks like.

Justing Gaines:

What does retirement look like for you?

Justing Gaines:

Because I really don't know what that number is that I need for you at retirement. If I don't know what your plans are in retirement Somebody who plans on buying a house in their hometown when they're in their 30s or 20s, paying it off over 30 years and then retiring in their hometown and maybe taking one vacation every year like they did during their working years, but otherwise small little trips their financial needs in retirement are going to be significantly different than the person who says I busted my butt all my working years and now I want to go and travel during my retirement years and if they're in good health and they're taking care of themselves and they can do that, absolutely more power to you, but your financial needs are going to be very different. The other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is your taxes and a lot of people because they're only looking at the accumulation. They're looking to be able to put away as much as possible now and lower their tax burden today, instead of looking at what their taxes are going to be in retirement.

John Proper:

So then, what I think I was hearing earlier and redirect me if I'm wrong, but we kind of got into this is because what we want to do is look long term, like we need to know someone's long term goal in order to give them the best advice now. And that's the same for financial and health. Like you can't tell someone how to invest now, what to do now, if you don't know what the retirement looks like. So what's been going on there with clients?

Justing Gaines:

Right. So I will say is we'll do another topic on if you do have a large tax return, what do you do with that money? Because there are certain things that I would recommend there.

John Proper:

But I don't want to derail us there.

Justing Gaines:

So we'll definitely do some mini post topics on that as well. But as far as your specific question of looking at what do you need in retirement, a lot of times we want to look at there's certain things that are consistent, no matter what you're going to end up with in retirement or what your plans are in retirement. But the key components that we want to look at is, geographically, where do you want to be for retirement, so that we can look at what are the costs of livings in that area. You may want to move. You may want to go down south, you may want to move up north. Who knows what geographic area you want to be in, whether it's staying put or moving. That plays into the calculation.

Justing Gaines:

The other thing is when do you want to retire? Are you trying to retire at 50, 55, 60, 65, 70? Do you plan on like somebody like myself? I don't ever actually plan on fully retiring. So I'll have income in retirement because I'll continue to do consulting work and I'll probably continue to run the insurance agency and the investment properties, along with the other businesses that I have, and so, as a result of that, that needs to be taken into consideration, because our income is not going to zero and we're relying on investments.

Justing Gaines:

We need to take all of these elements into consideration, determine what we ideally want in retirement, put a value on that in today's dollars and then we're going to look at okay, so if this would cost us $50,000 a year to live in today's dollars, what would that look like after 20 years of inflation, 10 years of inflation, 30 years of inflation? What does that look like? Because when I'm doing financial planning for my life insurance clients, while most entry level plans, we do put in us a very small amount of whole life into that plan and then the rest this term until we get into tax strategies, tax planning and the other stuff, but to cover basic needs, we're generally talking about term insurance and a very small portion of whole life. Some people are going to hate that, but the reason that we do that is I don't want to take out of your investments and your financial planning and say we need to carve out this small mess tag of this in order to cover funeral expenses, issuance of will and burial cost.

Justing Gaines:

We don't want to have to do that. So the small whole life policy does that. But if you take somebody who's our age, mid-20s, and you say they're going to live until 80, which life expectancy, honestly, is pushing beyond that, generally speaking we probably will live longer than 80. But if you go to 80, you're looking at over 50 years of inflation. So if you take the average funeral cost between $10,000 and $15,000, if you take the low end at 10 grand and you apply a 3 percent inflationary rate to that over 50 years, you end up at a number that's over 50 grand for funeral expenses, retirement, issuance of will. That's on the low end. That's on the low end of a funeral cost applying a 3 percent interest rate when we're in a market where we're at five and a half. The reason why we use three is because that's the average interest rate Generally speaking, historically. So that's why I use the 3 percent number. And then we use $50,000 as that whole life piece, because I don't mind dipping in a small amount $10,000, which may not sound like a large amount, but generally speaking, if $10,000 becomes $50,000, $10,000 in 50 years is not a large sum of money, and so I don't mind dipping in for $10,000, because it would be a chump change at that point effectively. But we want something there to be able to cover that burden Right.

Justing Gaines:

The same, though, applies for your income. So if $10,000 turns into $50,000, and I haven't actually run these numbers so the $10,000 to $50,000, I know that number is accurate, but I'm going to jump and extrapolate. Now, if you take and say we need $50,000 of income, we need $250,000 of income to be at the same income level, adjusted for inflation, in retirement. Now you take that person who says I can retire with a million dollars RH, I can retire if I have a million dollars. You'll have four years of income, four and a quarter when you take into account growth on that asset over time. But you're going to have like four and a quarter years of retirement income. So if your life expectancy is, we'll say, 85, you're retiring at 81 in order to have enough money. And so if we're just looking at accumulation, we start pulling out numbers out of thin air that make sense to us in today's dollars, but if we're not achieving higher than inflationary rates of return, we're not going to be able to get where we need to be in retirement.

Justing Gaines:

So in order to calculate how much we need to save each year. Today we need to look at how much are we going to need to spend in distribution. The analogy I like to use with my clients is it's a lot like taking a hike. If you plan on a hike and since we're in New York and we have the Adirondacks, we'll talk a high peak If you're trying to do a high peak in the Adirondacks, you don't just wake up one day and say I'm going up to the Adirondacks to hike Mount Marcy, it's not happening. You plan that out. You know that you're doing that in the shortest period of time, maybe three days in advance. Even avid hikers that I know probably would not do it with less than three days of planning. You're looking at weather, which I would say is inflation. You're looking at what are your equipment needs that you need, what type of protective gear, insurance, what type of investments, tools, lights, first aid kits, all that sort of stuff. What type of stuff do I need to bring with me in order to be there safe? How much water do I need? How much food and snacks do I need? And if you only planned your hike for what would I need on the trip up when you get to the descent, you're not going to have any water left, you're not going to have any food left and you're not going to have all these elements left to get you down Now.

Justing Gaines:

Going down is always easier than going up, and the same is true with retirement. Distributing is always easier than going up and accumulating if you had the right gear. You don't have the right gear. You're trying to go up, you're dehydrated, you might roll your ankle and even if you plan everything out perfectly, you might roll your ankle. You might end up dehydrated. You might end up there might be an animal that gets in your way that's going to porgy plant. Whatever the case may be, you could have something that derows you and throws you off the path. There could be trees that are in the way. Whatever the case may be, it's one of the things that maybe not when you're hiking, but in the financial world it's.

Justing Gaines:

The one thing that we can guarantee is that you're going to have hurdles, somebody's going to get sick, somebody's going to get hurt, you're going to have an unexpected child, or maybe you have an expected child and the child ends up being sick, or any one of these elements.

Justing Gaines:

There are things that are going to be there to derail you. And then where the analogy falls apart is, hopefully, if you're hiking Mount Marci and you don't have the right stuff, you realize that part we have to hike and you start turning around and going back down. Unfortunately, our lives do not work like that. Our timeline doesn't stop and we can't just turn around and say, ok, we're just going to retire now and go this way. Ultimately, what ends up happening is you have to go and take the higher sea proportion of the mountain and make it happen. You have to start taking more losses here and give up certain experiences and travel and luxuries that you might be experiencing in order to save for the accumulation. But if you're not thinking about distribution when you're having your retirement conversations and your financial planning conversations, you're mismanaging your money and you're essentially throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks.

John Proper:

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I mean the thing that stuck with me the most no-transcript Plans never go as expected and there's going to be a ton of hurdles. So with that, especially from someone that, like in the health world, it's very similar. It's not linear. You don't just heal like this. If we're talking mental health, physical health, it's up, down, up, down, up down. But for that space I know the answers and I know what to help clients with. Like okay, well, if you hit a bump in the road, this is what we do. But like, if I hit a bump in the road of financials, how am I getting past that bump? If I have to turn around, is it because I have different investments? Is it you know what's helping me get through that?

Justing Gaines:

So typically this is where a lot of times when we have bumps in the road, the biggest bumps that I find with clients or even the biggest starting points because whenever.

Justing Gaines:

I'm working with a client. I'm never starting at the I shouldn't say never. There are some clients where I start at the base of the mountain. I start with them and then I'm doing financial plans for their kids. I'm not at the base of their mountain, but I am at the base of their kids' mountain because I mean we have I have financial plans for some individuals that are literally babies. You know, they're six months old and we're starting to put together their plan. Why not? That's the base of the mountain, like that is the sweet spot, and that kid is going to be able to absorb a lot more hurdles because he's the fittest guy on the trowel or girl on the trowel fittest person on the trowel and has all of the equipment that they could possibly need. They have all of the best and nicest equipment and so they can handle most things.

Justing Gaines:

And they have and they have the energy and the ability to actually carry all of that equipment through retirement, through to retirement, and so they can adjust and pivot and do all of these things. So a lot of times, what ends up happening is I either when I start working with you or throughout the course of working with you, we get a curveball and debt gets taken on, and so it's either credit card debt, it's a personal loan, it's refinancing the house, it's a whole slew of things, and the question then becomes how quickly can we get back on track, and a lot of times it might not be paying off the debt. Paying off the debt isn't always the right answer. The number one thing with debts that you need to look at is what is my interest rate and what is the rate of return that I can get on my investments. If I know that I can, in an average year, get 8% rate of return or 7% rate of return on my money, I should be investing any extra money that I would be putting towards debts that have a lower interest rate than that, because you're essentially money ahead If I have a car loan that I'm paying 6% on, but I know that if I put my money into.

Justing Gaines:

For me personally, if I know that I put my money into my Roth IRA, I know that eventually my income is going to cap me out on my Roth contribution. So I want to max out my Roth contribution as early as possible and I also want to maximize my returns. 6%. Car loan, which is an expense at 6%, but I know on average that's going to net me 8.5% 90% rate of return in the stock market and that's not taking into account dividends and reinvesting that and rolling that. That's just a fixed number. Because that 8.5% or even 8% is higher than the 6%, I'm making an additional 2% on my money.

Justing Gaines:

So I better put that into the Roth and continue to pay the minimum payment on my car loan instead of knocking the car loan out. Now where that inverts is my car loan is 9% and I'm getting 9% on the Roth. Now it's equal when you're only investing the investment. Don't pay it off when it's equal, Because when it's equal, you're only eliminating a 9% expense. For if you have a really long car payment for seven years, potentially shorter than that, Versus getting 9% until retirement, so until we'll say 65. So for another 35, 40 years we're getting 9%, versus eliminating it for seven years.

John Proper:

Can I imagine that 9% will. So if you're paying into your investment, it will give you more money because you're putting it's 9% on a higher number every time versus the car.

Justing Gaines:

Correct, it's compounding. It's compounding and with your minimum payment you have a plan where you're going to end it. So you're going to get a rate of return. You're going to get that 9% longer by investing in it. But the minute it goes to 9.5%, 10%, pay off the debts. Pay off the debts Once the interest rate is lower than the average rate of return of whatever your investment class is. Eliminate the debt Right Now. That's on paper and this is where you and I have had a ton of conversations about that. That is on paper.

John Proper:

That is financially.

Justing Gaines:

That is the most sound and secure advice that you can get as far as eliminating those debts, and don't follow. You know, don't follow, we'll pay off the lowest balance Interest rate, rate of return. Those are the things that matter. Those are the things you need to look at. Don't look at the balance amount. Don't look at those things. Interest rate highest interest rate gets paid off first, then lower interest rates, and that's if you're just using very simple principles.

Justing Gaines:

There are unique and creative ways that we can do this as well, but sticking with the basics here. That's what you want to look at. But there's also the largest and most important aspect of investing in any part of your financial picture is your attitude towards it. So if you have your attitude and your emotions towards it, if you aren't going to be able to emotionally handle having the debt and it's going to deter you from your financial plan, eliminate the debt. I don't care if it's a 3% debt and you're getting 8% on the market.

Justing Gaines:

If you know that the amount of stress and wherewithal on your mental progress towards your investments is going to be negatively impacted by having that debt looming over top of you, you need to clear that out and, working with a financial advisor, you'll be able to determine what your risk tolerance is, what makes the most sense for you, and develop a strategy.

Justing Gaines:

Ultimately, that financial advisor myself, if you're working with me will be able to tell you this is going to negatively impact you If we clear this out. You need to toughen up a little bit on this and not worry about it, because we're making the right, logical decision. However, they're going to tell you totally understand, your risk tolerance doesn't allow for this. Let's knock out this debt. It's not going to negatively impact you. We just need to know that this $400 a month payment, once you have this debt cleared out, needs to go. 100 percent of that needs to go into your retirement and investment accounts in order to catch you back up for the lost time that you had by clearing out the debt when you really should have been fully funding in retirement. Over here, the key element there is having a plan, having a strategy to attack and making sure that it's not going to derail us too much or at all from our distribution plan.

John Proper:

I'm in holistic health and that sounds like holistic finances. You need someone, like you said, that understands your goals, your risk tolerance, what you want, because again, you and I and you just described it perfectly the numbers don't lie. Based on the numbers, that's the best thing to do. I can tell someone if they want to heal, if they want to get healthy. This is the best, exact thing you can do.

John Proper:

But, as we talked about in our last one, is it ideal for some people to need, let's say, four cheat meals a week or four cheat days a week? It's like no, I don't want my clients to do that, but does that mean they get then three days of good eating? It's like, okay, not the best, but what if they don't have that and they have seven days of bad eating? So it's all about that net positive. I think in the health world. I think we can work on this. You can weigh in if you think someone's risk tolerance can change, but I think you can take baby steps to maybe get to a more ideal spot If someone's 100 percent.

Justing Gaines:

Actually, that was the next point that I was going to say is that that same person who has four cheat meals and three regular meals ultimately that person who has especially with mortgage rates the way they were, and people acquiring properties I have this conversation a lot of times where they have a 3 percent mortgage and they're like I want to knock this out, like it's really low and I can see the principal go down. That's what's motivating them to do that. If I feel that their risk tolerance will allow for them to put a portion towards retirement but continue to pay down a portion of the investment, I'll get them to do that, because it's the same thing. If you have, we'll say, $700 extra that you're paying towards a mortgage Now you can do this with $70, but for analogy purposes, you see $700 that you're paying towards that. If I can take and have you put 300 into an investment account and pay 400 extra we're only talking about the extra payments here 400 extra towards a mortgage, as you see the $300 compound in the investment account you're going to be like, wow, okay, I see this, this is good, I like it. Let me allocate $400 here and $300 over here.

Justing Gaines:

The same thing applies in the health world. You start feeling better. You start with one or two workout days and you're like, wow, okay, I'm getting bigger.

John Proper:

As soon as you get a taste. As soon as you get a taste, you start to get addicted.

Justing Gaines:

I use the analogy all the time it's building the muscles. It's building the interest and the desire and the muscles and the strength to be able to see how this plays out, how this is going to move. How are we going to make this plan work? This will be in. Yeah. Once they develop those, then they start to understand it more. Your risk tolerance may start to ease up because you start to see this isn't actually as risky as I thought it was, because you see the end goal. Ultimately, somebody's risk tolerance will change over time. That is guaranteed. Even if you're ultra conservative in your 20s, at retirement you're going to be ultra conservative. Yeah, because you really can't More factors.

Justing Gaines:

Yeah, it's one of those things that we want to. As a general rule of thumb, there are certain risk tolerance for each age bracket, but if you're outside of that, outside of a normal deviation from that, we're going to want to pull you and educate you and develop you into an appropriate risk tolerance for your age group in order to maximize your rates of return and effectively have your accumulation acquire, accumulate quicker or have your distribution be able to be focused into distribution and not losses of capital.

John Proper:

Right. I think an important thing that we're both really hitting on here is you're building that trust, and whether it's you're first building it with the person you're working with, but ideally you're building it with the client themselves, like the client is gaining trust back in themselves. If I want to use food, for example I got what is the cheat days because it's I guess it's a little more extreme example say I tell someone what, like we talked about this amount of protein at each meal per day, like that's it don't change anything else than they're gonna start Building trust in you because they're gonna see results, are gonna say, okay, maybe he knows what he's talking about. But then I want to turn around and be like no, build trust in yourself because you did that. Trust yourself like I can take these baby steps and get to a better spot, like now. What else can I do? It's it, you know, just empowering our clients with the information, right?

Justing Gaines:

so yes, diversifying, diversifying your assets and you want to. First, I do a certain extent. Diversification can be really good or really bad for your return, so there's nothing about what I have. But, just like you want to diversify the types of food you're eating you don't want to eat just one type of food you want to have a mix of financial products in your portfolios In order to be able to weather those storms, in order to be able to adjust and pivot and move. And that's why, when we build a financial plan for somebody, we discuss your investments, your insurance whether it's your homeowners in auto or your business insurance but we also discussed your life insurance, and how is that playing into it? There are a lot of times most clients, whether they want to admit it or not, should consider at the very least Developing some sort of cash value life insurance in order to help them in their distribution.

Justing Gaines:

A lot of people put a lot of hate on whole life insurance policies because I could pay less for term and invest the difference. That's all fine and dandy and it's true you would technically get a higher rate of turn on that. But what they're not doing is they're not leveraging what we call the power of zero. So you use an indexing strategy or even a non it. You use a whole life or indexed universal life that has an indexing strategy. Both of those have certain guarantees. And then you do not have guarantees in the stock market and so You're guaranteed on a whole life policy of minimum interest rate.

Justing Gaines:

On indexing universal life, you're guaranteed a floor that the interest rate will never go below a certain dollar amount, whether that's zero percent, one and a half percent, buries by contracts you have to look at the specifics. But the benefit to that is if you have. You would hope this never happens, but somebody in our age bracket where you're more aggressive in your investments could happen and people did see it happen during covid, during the housing crisis back in the early two thousands when your investment takes a massive dip twenty, thirty, forty percent loss on it. If you had a twenty thirty percent loss here, what do you have to have the next year in order to get back to break even?

John Proper:

The forty, sixty.

Justing Gaines:

Most people will.

John Proper:

Most people say thirty five, thirty percent right just a bit of a loss that it'll also so you take a hundred thousand dollars and investments, you take a fifty percent loss.

Justing Gaines:

What do you have? Fifty thousand.

John Proper:

Okay now, if you have a, fifty percent gain on that.

Justing Gaines:

What do you have? Fifty of your fifty, correct fifty, seventy five. You're at seventy five, you're at seventy five. To equal rates, equally contrasting rates return. Fifty percent down, fifty percent up.

John Proper:

Yeah, to get back to break even you have to have double the rate of return you have to have a hundred percent rate of return on your money in order to get back to zero.

Justing Gaines:

So to then.

John Proper:

Be where you want to be. You need like a two hundred percent or a hundred. Like I said, these are big numbers because we're trying to being able to have to calculate it on paper.

Justing Gaines:

But the same is true if you go down three percent, you need six percent to get back to zero. Yeah, so what an indexing strategy does and having some value, some whole life insurance of some component allows you, so that during your distribution phase, if there's a down market, you can take your normal annual distributions out of your whole life policy tax free, because you take it as a loan, so you have tax benefits to it. So it will operate similar distribution lines to a Roth IRA. You already pay taxes on paying tax on distribution. You're going to take it as a loan.

Justing Gaines:

But when you have a down year, the reason why the stock market is so beautiful is that it consistently, over a long period of time, goes up. If you look at the stock market only over any extended period of time, it has increased. The problem is, if you look at individual, isolated periods of time, it may have gone now, right. So what does that mean? We need to in a down year? We need to have a down year. We need to stay in the market for a longer period of time, so we need to not be taking distributions. Well, if we're in retirement, we need income. You have to take distributions.

John Proper:

we can't just say, well, we're not going to, we're just not going to live.

Justing Gaines:

This year we're going to have zero dollars. So if you don't have these indexing strategies it's whole life policies built into the retirement plan you have to compound your loss. You not only have to take the three percent decrease in the stock market value, you also have to take General thumb. Four percent of your capital or your principal is what you're taking out. So now you're at a seven percent decline versus If you had a three percent loss and we took the equivalent amount of normal income distributions out of your whole life insurance policy. You now have. You have the ability to live, but we just bought you time in the market for it to return back to or above where it was at, and so your whole life insurance policy ends up buying you back your rate of return in your investment portfolio. If you have a built in your strategy.

Justing Gaines:

Way too many people are looking at accumulation phase, not distribution, and so they are saying I could put more money in my investments if I didn't have this whole life policy, and the whole life policy Isn't going to grow as quickly as my Roth IRA or my IRA or my 401k. And while that may be accurate and it generally is accurate what you're not doing is you're not buying the time in distribution To allow your investments to recover in down years. You're not seeing the whole picture Right. It's insurance. Whole life insurance not only ensures your life, it ensures your distribution of income in retirement, if structured properly. But they're not all like that. You know and people get.

Justing Gaines:

Well, there's a lot of people who sell those policies you don't structure properly and those are the financial vampires that will say they're going to watch my video, they're going to send it to somebody and they're going to say this is what we're going to do with your plan. But they don't know how to structure it.

John Proper:

Right. Well, and that's why it's going to be. I think we're going to have to dive into a lot more, because Not everyone can be working with you or even someone else with the same knowledge, so they're going to have to be their own advocates. So, when someone will just use the term they use, a financial vampire, sell them stuff we should go over. Hey, if this looks like this, take a step back, ask them these questions, because we want to make sure people can protect themselves from getting into a bad one like that.

Justing Gaines:

Right? No, absolutely For sure. You have to find somebody you can trust and who is super knowledgeable. And we can definitely break down the questions and the things to look for. Because, ultimately, what I want to do is I want to have the person so that when they're out at the bar at a party with their friends and they're talking about what they're doing with me, they're excited about it. And when their friend says, oh, I don't know, I was told this they're able to then respond back with and that might work for you, but for my position. This is why we're doing this and this is what makes sense. And maybe you should talk to him as well and see if what you've been taught makes sense or doesn't make sense.

Justing Gaines:

And there's times that I tell clients. I probably tell in any given week. I probably am telling if I'm meeting with 10 clients in a week, I'm probably telling four of them. You shouldn't change what you're doing or change your advisor. You should say right, where you are. I would ask these questions, I would make these adjustments, but, honestly, you're in pretty good hands. If I gave you a plan, they would end up coming back and saying the same thing. You're probably in pretty good hands. I would do this different.

John Proper:

Yeah, I mean, let's leave it at that man, health, freedom and financial freedom. We want you to know what you're doing and why you're doing it, so you can advocate for yourself, so you can do it without us someday.

Justing Gaines:

Right.

John Proper:

Yeah.

Justing Gaines:

And ultimately that is the goal.

John Proper:

Thanks for listening to our podcast.

Justing Gaines:

We hope this helps you on your balanced freedom journey.

John Proper:

Please share your thoughts in the comments section below.

Justing Gaines:

Until next time, stay balanced.