Marketing Lessons from the Symphony | Robert Emery - Part 2

Listen to Part 1 here!

In Part 2, Beverly and Robert explore deeper topics. Robert opens up about challenges he faced, like ageism and financial instability in music, and how he developed unshakable confidence in his craft and pricing. He shares powerful insights on negotiation, brand alignment, and the emotional intelligence it takes to be both a world-class conductor and entrepreneur.

Three Key Topics Discussed:

1. Overcoming Ageism & Financial Fear: Robert talks about leading 80-person orchestras at age 20, and the resilience it took to survive in a feast-or-famine freelance industry.
2. Confidence Through Clarity: Why getting clear on your value and saying “this is what I charge” is the secret to owning your brand, and how maturity brings freedom in entrepreneurship.
3. Influence & Reciprocity in Marketing: Robert breaks down the psychology of persuasion, why mirroring works, and how creating magical experiences leads to business growth.

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Transcript

Beverly: 0:09

Hello. Before we dive into part two of this episode, I gotta ask, did you catch part one? If not, hit pause real quick. You'll wanna start from the beginning to get the full effect. The link to part one is right down in the description below. Go ahead, catch up, and we'll be right here waiting for you. Ready to dive into part two when you're all set. It's worth it, I promise. What has been the biggest challenge of your career and how have you overcome it?

Robert: 0:33

Had two, two or three real big sort of themes of challenging, one I'm naturally overcoming as I get older and ageism was a massive issue for me in terms of I was too young. Imagine a 20-year-old signing up conducting an orchestra of 80 to 90 players who may be, are age 40 to 80. And they sit there going what does this 20-year-old know? He was still in diapers when I was, graduating from the music college. So I had a lot of a lot of issues when I was younger with people not just naturally thinking he's not gonna be very good because he's young. That's naturally resolving itself. Now that I'm getting more wrinkly. Second issue is finding the work. I'm a freelance musician. Maybe I have a hundred gigs in a year. Maybe I have 10 gigs in a year. Maybe I have none. Maybe the phone stops ringing. That's a really horrible situation to be in When you start January the first and you look at your diary and you go, yeah, I got probably like four gigs in this year so far which is enough to pay maybe two weeks worth of my mortgage. And you go, whoa that could be scary. And the only way to deal with that is just to have the confidence that you're gonna be fine. Keep plowing on, keep picking up the phone, keep generating ideas, keep calling people, making new contacts. Trying to make things happen. That's as simple as it gets really is keep going. And then the third issue that is always tricky is negotiating negotiating deals, fees. The problem with music is that it's free. I. For most people, most of the time, but only in the past few years. So you can now go to YouTube, you can listen to absolutely any piece of music you want. Free of charge doesn't cost you a cent. Spotify is the same thing. You can listen to it on Amazon, Alexa, you can listen to it wherever you need free of charge. And instantly.

Beverly: 2:32

Yeah.

Robert: 2:32

We all forget this has only happened in the past 7, 8, 9 years before that people used to save for. Their pocket money to go and buy the CD they wanted to buy or buy the LP or the record they wanted to buy. And they cherished it as a special thing that they'd saved up money. They went and bought it. They listened to it. And that's the lp, the cd, the album that they listened to again and again. And they understood the value of music. Music is expensive to make. Sure you can type something into AI and say, give me a song and three and a half minutes later you've got a little rubbish. But that, in terms of real music it's expensive to make. And so there's this nasty situation at the moment where the world thinks music should be free. But at the same time, people like me have to, and are living from music and it's expensive to make, so it can't be free. And so negotiating deals can be very tricky because people were like. Can't you come and perform free of charge for us and we'll just give you a dinner? And no, the dinner's not gonna put the roof over my head. So those are the main elements, the age, the fact that as a self-employed person, you just have to keep fighting that fight. And with negotiating you have to learn negotiated skills to get over the line of what you need to earn a living. Those are the three main issues I've had. And two of them you have to actively figure out ways forward.

Beverly: 4:00

I think that when you're trying to follow up with people and you're trying to make sure that you have the next gig, you are constantly trying to make sure you're top of mind, which is marketing, right? Branding and marketing. Making sure that you're still staying relevant. And I do think that in the music industry, maybe more so than others, there's like trends. So people get shiny object syndrome and they go okay, we're gonna do this boy band thing now, or we're gonna do this now. So you have to compete against some of that as well in what you do, which is probably even more challenging. I can only imagine from a musician's perspective.

Robert: 4:35

Yeah, exactly. There's a great book and I'm trying to find out what it is. I think it's called the Power of Negotiating. I need to just double check that. Which it's a really thick book. But I would totally recommend anybody and everybody to read this book because it doesn't matter if you are trying to market coca-Cola or if you're trying to market an Apple product or if you're trying to market self-help therapy, counseling I know fences doesn't really matter. At some point we all have to negotiate. And we all have to deal with that negotiation. And this is a fantastic book and I just can't remember what it's called, but I'll find it out for you and let you know.

Beverly: 5:13

There's a book, I think it's The Power of Influence or something like that. Oh. That's the one power of influence. That's the one. Okay. That is written by a man who was a professional, like hostage negotiator. Is that who you're talking about?

Robert: 5:24

Yes, I think so. The Power of Influence by John C. Maxwell?

Beverly: 5:27

Yes. It's very good. I read it myself. It's very good. So if you are interested, that is a great book. I would totally agree with you

Robert: 5:33

That is one, but it's actually not the one I was thinking about. Not the one you were thinking about, but No, I have that one. I'll find it.

Beverly: 5:38

So reflecting on your journey though, let's talk about one aspect of your business approach. You talked about negotiation a little bit, but what has evolved the most over time and what has inspired that change, do you think?

Robert: 5:50

That's a fantastic question. What has evolved over time is that the older and more experienced I get, the more. I am comfortable in my own skin and happy to say, this is my fee, this is what I charge. If it's too expensive for you, if you don't value it, if you don't think I'm any good or you don't think I'm worth that amount of money, not a problem. Then I'm not the person for you. And just to not bow down to everybody and be a puppy dog trying to claw for work all the time and just to sit back and go, I do what I do. I know I'm good at it. Without being arrogant. And I'm confident in it. And I'm confident that what I'd like to charge is Right. And how did I get to that situation? That's a very good question. I think that's just time. I don't think I did anything specific. I think I've just grown older, wiser, I've had children. My output and view in life changes dramatically with children. And I think my priorities probably have changed over the years. And I just, I wanna work with nice people who value me and I value them back. And if they are not that right person, I'm happy to stay out of it. I think that's one major thing that has changed in my life.

Beverly: 7:12

When we talk to our clients, so many solopreneurs who are doing it on their own and they're trying to do something that brings more wellness or kindness or joy, something to the world it can get the world can be a little bit harsh and can beat you up a little bit and it's hard, like you feel like you have to sometimes placate or play a game or something. But as you evolve and grow and mature and understand your experience and the real transformation that you offer to others, and maybe it is the gray hairs, maybe it's the wrinkles, maybe it's life experience and perspective. And maybe it's all the mistakes that add up. But I do agree with you, like at some point. But I think it's also this process Robert, that talks a little bit about when you are really clear. On your value. When you're really clear what you offer, when you're really clear on the transformation you're going to create for your audience and those kinds of things, the value that you offer becomes so much more special and significant. And that confidence side of it, we call it unicorn like confidence for our entrepreneurs, because unicorns don't walk into a room and act small. They walk into a room and like you said, it's not ego, it's just they know they're special. And you have to know your value, your worth, and it's important. And the clearer you are, the earlier you can get clear Yeah. And not wait 20 years if possible the better it's going to be for you financially, entrepreneurially in those areas. For sure. I could not agree with you more, Robert.

Robert: 8:44

Yeah. And there is a fine line between being arrogant and being confident. And it can be a really difficult line, especially in my industry, where you have to deal with divas every day. It can be a difficult line to, to find out. And again I think that's just one of these experience things where you just have to, be respectful of everybody else and be understanding and be nice. I think there's, there's so many books that we all read, so many business books. I got 124 books on my list to read of, the best self-help in virtual commas or business books psychology books everything to do with improving oneself. And I don't just randomly pick them, you find people like Tim Ferris and he's got a list of top four. And then and the list goes on. You find these people Tony Robbins, he's got a top five. And so I've built up my own library, if you like, of these collections of all these amazing people in the world and their top four or five books and added them together to this 124 book list. But one of the things that actually hardly anybody talks about it, it's just the idea of being nice. Being friendly and respectful and treating people how you expect to be treated and that will go a long way in business. there's this fallacy of we have to be mean and evil and nasty and hard nose and we have to pump our fists and say, this is what I demand, or I'm the best, or this is what I want. Do you know what, I don't know if that's necessary anymore. I just think if you are really talented and good at what you do and you are a nice person with it, that will take you a long way.

Beverly: 10:18

At the end of the day, I wanna put my head on the pillow knowing that I was a good human being. Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's more than the money, it's more than the power. It's more than control. Yeah. I wanna know that I was a good human being at the end of the day.

Robert: 10:31

Yeah.

Beverly: 10:32

Yes, I completely agree with you. We need more good human beings in the world. Yeah. Power and money isn't everything. Yeah. It would be wonderful if everything happened to the kindest and the most wonderful human beings.

Robert: 10:43

Yeah.

Beverly: 10:44

It's not always the case, but it would be wonderful.

Robert: 10:46

Yeah.

Beverly: 10:47

Hey it to the listeners right now, if you are loving this conversation, please subscribe to this particular podcast. We'd love to have you along for these wonderful kinds of conversations like we're having with Robert today, and we'd love for you to leave a review or share this episode with someone who you know needs it. Maybe there's somebody in your life that you know that needs a little bit of a push to be kind and really sit in that and not to try to be something that they're not. So please share it with them. We would really appreciate it because the more people that can discover this magic, the better it can be. More of our guests, like Robert can get out there and get their word out to everybody and can be exposed to these wonderful human beings. So I would really appreciate that. So here's the season's biggest question, Robert. I believe everyone has brand magic. Yeah. And it's that je ne sais quoi, it's the thing you can't put your finger on.

Robert: 11:38

The X factor.

Beverly: 11:39

It's the X factor. So how did you awaken your brand magic? And was there a spark or a moment where everything aligned and then you saw the unique magic that you bring to the table? Was there a moment or was it, like you said just over time. What was it for you?

Robert: 11:55

For me it came naturally and I was really lucky. It's because I was young when I started performing and I didn't have any rules, nobody said, you can't talk to an audience. Nobody said, you walk on stage, take a bar, sit at the piano and play, and then walk off again, and you are very formal. Nobody told me anything. So for me it was totally natural to walk on stage and say hello to an audience and talk to them. And explain what I'm gonna play, explain a bit of information about the composer or the piece of music, or a fascinating fact or something they didn't know. I once took apart a piano on stage,'cause I was talking about a special feature in this piece of, I can't remember, remanding off or something to do with the pedals and the keyboards. And the audience just looked really perplexed and confused and I said, you have no idea what you, what I'm talking about. Do you, I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna take the piano apart and I'll show you how the piano works so you understand what I'm actually doing at this section. So I broke all the rules, but not because I was trying to be rebellious, because I didn't know they existed when I was younger. I was just a kid. And I have a very good feeling of what an audience likes and so I quite quickly realized the audience is really loving the angle of how I'm treating this concert, this gig, and what I'm doing here. So it's what I've done for the rest of my life. I go on stage, I talk to an audience, I have a microphone, I make jokes. I'm quite quick and witty and make it fun. Sometimes I just jump down from the stage and go into the audience and talk to people who knows what I'm gonna do. That's part of the parcel of being a bit creative on stage. And that was the X factor in terms of my package as a presentation. What makes me different from everybody else. And I just found that naturally and I think we are all different and I think it's a really good idea to try and figure out. What and why you are different and how you can be different. I mentioned fencing because I'm literally having my boundary of 200 meters fenced this week and last week. It's taking me forever to do. And I was thinking about this and I've got a friend who's like a handyman. He goes around to help people and, put up shelves or fix the toilet or whatever. And he was thinking about expanding his business, but he wasn't quite sure how to do it. And I said, if you're gonna employ other people, why don't you get them to turn up in people's houses with a shirt and tie, or at least a very smart jacket, which is branded and they call people Sir Madam. And so this, you think of a handyman as some guy in ripped jeans coming around. He's probably really fat and probably smells horrible. And he comes and fixes your toilet and then he calls everybody love in the uk, and then he'll disappear off again. And so why don't you do the direct opposite of that? Why don't you have these people who are. Highly trained, highly skilled at what they do, but they are bang on time. They're formal when they need to be. They take off their shoes when they go into the property and clean up after them. They take a vacuum, a hoover. And I said, why don't you do that? Why don't you just do the opposite of what everybody else is doing? And and it's the same with the fence guys here, the fence guys were like, we need to draw more business. I said at the moment you look like at 20 other fencing companies in my area. I live in a fairly wealthy area. Why aren't you the ones who go round with a better presentation and you are a bit more friendly. So there's always that X factor. You just have to find out what it is. And for me, it's just been a bit crazy on stage.

Beverly: 15:14

I think you had youth on your side.'cause I think as we get older, we get more constrained by society. Like you said, the rules of what you should and should not do. And we get so I guess tied down by the shoulds.

Robert: 15:26

Yep.

Beverly: 15:27

And not the I wants. Yep. And so I love that your youth actually was your magic because you didn't live in a box. No. You created your box. Yeah. Whatever that was that looked like for you. You created what the box was gonna look like. And I think so many, I know so many entrepreneurs forget that this is their business, that they get to decide what the box looks like. And it's not the shoulds, it's the I wants and this is who I am and this is more fun or more, I have a wand, Robert, and it's part of who I am, and I like to spread a little bit of magic and there is something special about that particular thing. Not everybody carries a wand around with them, but I literally do in my purse. So you have to find the thing that works for you and your unique magic. But I love that youth was on your side in this case. I love that so much. So I have a magic hat

Robert: 16:20

Oh yes.

Beverly: 16:20

With lots of questions in there. Oh yes. There's probably like 40 questions. Okay. So this is like a lightning round. It's a little bit faster.

Robert: 16:27

Let's go.

Beverly: 16:27

And I have, I'm gonna go through as many as I can in a couple minutes. Okay. What's a surprising way your personal values show up in your business?

Robert: 16:35

That's supposed to be a quick fire question. Okay. Comedy I like comedy. I like being funny. I think it is nice to make people smile and laugh and I do that on a daily basis. If my wife isn't giggling during the day at some point to do with me, I failed as a husband and I try and get my audience, my colleagues, my clients to do the same.

Beverly: 16:55

Tell us about a time when you had to pivot and what did you learn?

Robert: 16:58

COVID there's no good being a conductor at home when you are locked in your own living room. So I set up Ted's list, which is the musical education website'cause I could do that by myself. Sitting at home, helping others learn music.

Beverly: 17:12

What's one marketing trend that needs to dial already Be honest.

Robert: 17:16

Marketing trend that needs to die. Oh. Emojis. I hate them.

Beverly: 17:19

Emojis. Okay. What's the most WTF thing that has ever happened in your business, good or bad?

Robert: 17:25

Oh I had to get on a private jet once and go to a concert, a private concert. I didn't know which country I was going to, and I didn't know which billionaire I was working for. Oh, interesting. And when I got there, the plane door opened. Somebody greeted me at the bottom of the steps and I assumed it was like the chauffeur or something, and I gave him my bags and moved on and got into this car that was waiting from me. And got into this palace. And then I was introduced to the billionaire, who was the gentleman that I gave my bags to.

Beverly: 17:58

I kinda knew where that was going and I was like, oh no.

Robert: 18:01

Yep.

Beverly: 18:02

That sounds like a prince moment or something like Prince, something Prince would do.

Robert: 18:05

No comment.

Beverly: 18:06

If you could wave a magic wand and solve one current challenge for your business, what would it be?

Robert: 18:12

Have more financial stability.

Beverly: 18:14

If your brand had a dating profile, how would it describe itself?

Robert: 18:19

Fun, crazy, lovable. Like me.

Beverly: 18:22

What's been the hardest part about being an entrepreneur?

Robert: 19:18

Maintaining the confidence that you will get to where you want to be one day.

Beverly: 19:26

What is a decision that completely changed the trajectory of your business?

Robert: 19:32

Deciding to move away from just playing piano for a living, to being an all around musician who conducts composers, orchestrates music, producers, work in theater, tv, radio, symphony, you name it.

Beverly: 19:45

That is the end of the magic hat round. Brilliant.

Robert: 19:48

I like that. That's a good round.

Beverly: 19:50

I love it.

Robert: 19:51

I should give you an extra one. What is the name of the book that you've forgotten is called Influence the Psychology of Persuasion. Ah, Robert B. Chaldini.

Beverly: 20:02

There you go.

Robert: 20:03

Influence the psychology of Persuasion. An amazing book. Everybody should read. It should

Beverly: 20:07

read. Okay. We can put it in the show notes too so that people can click right on there. Great.

Robert: 20:12

Great.

Beverly: 20:12

So the next round is all about the magic wand, Robert. Good. I have a magic wand and in one of its magical powers is that we can travel through time. Good. So I'm going to wave the wand and take us back to, I don't know, 10-year-old Robert since that's when you started touring. And I want you to give that Robert one piece of advice that you wish you'd had before.

Robert: 20:33

A ignore what everybody says and follow your gut.

Beverly: 20:36

What would Robert, that Robert say about you now?

Robert: 20:40

It's like a school report. Could do better, could have been worse.

Beverly: 20:48

Didn't do his best work. He's much smarter than he pretends to be.

Robert: 20:52

Yeah. Fake it till you make it.

Beverly: 20:53

That's so good. Okay, now I'm gonna wave my wine and we're gonna go into the future far into the future, decades. Okay. And we're gonna be at your funeral and someone is gonna be talking about your eulogy. Talk about what they're saying and your impact is on the world, what impact you've left.

Robert: 21:09

I hope they would turn around and say, God, he was that crazy guy who made me fall in love with classical music. Or symphonic music if I get one person saying that I've done my job.

Beverly: 21:22

I think you have the autistic fellow already convinced. So I think you're on the right track, Robert. Okay. I'm gonna bring us back to current day.

Robert: 21:30

Yep.

Beverly: 21:30

And I'm going to give you the power of the magic wand, and I'm going to ask you what is one question you wish I would ask you?

Robert: 21:37

One question I would like you to ask me. A tricky one. Know what, how about something which has got nothing to do with marketing but something that a lot of people will be wondering, what does a conductor actually do?

Beverly: 21:54

What does a conductor actually do, Robert?

Robert: 21:57

Besides waving my arms around a lot and getting paid to do it and holding a stick a CEO of a business, does the CEO go and do all of the work that all of the people under him or her. And do they get into the nitty gritty of everything? No, they don't. Just does the conductor make any noise whatsoever? No, they don't. They don't make any music. But without the CEO, the business doesn't function. It has no direction. It has no understanding. Without a conductor, an orchestra has no understanding, it has no direction. So that's what I do. A lot of people think you just beat time, and that is like the fundamental element of what you do as a conductor. Everybody, if there's 80 people on stage, they need to know when to start playing together, and there has to be one person telling them that. But that's the base camp. Everything on top of that is. How loud do you play? How violent do you play? How romantic do you play? Are you too romantic? Is it too slushy and boring? Does it need to speed up a bit? Is it too fast, too slow? Is it powerful enough? The solo from the flute, is it coming across one flute player 60 violinists? Is it projecting enough? Do I need to get the violinists to play quieter? All of these questions plus a million more, that's what a conductor does. They create the direction and just like the CEO of a company. But fundamentally, I just wave my arms and hold a stick.

Beverly: 23:22

Do you wear the tails too?

Robert: 23:24

I do. Not always. Not always, but I have like sparkly suits and things as well. I have crazy and quite often I conduct barefooted as well.

Beverly: 23:32

Oh, I love that so much. There's a community band in Detroit. It's the Farmington Community band. One of my best friends plays the flute in the band, and when I go their conductor, I have a little bit of a fan girl thing about him. I love the way he conducts. He's just so fun to watch and he's having the time of his freaking life up there and you can just tell that he's having so much fun. he's radiating joy. He conducts. And I think it is far more than just waving your arms around. So I would agree with you. Like he's one of my most favorite people to watch conduct because he's just joy with a stick. He's just joy. Oh, but

Robert: 24:13

That's the subtitle for this podcast, isn't it? Robert Emery. Joy With a Stick. Joy With a Stick.

Beverly: 24:18

I love it. I love it. I love it. So I have one last question.

Robert: 24:22

Shoot. I

Beverly: 24:22

always like to give some practical advice to those that are listening, what they can do today. Is there one tip or strategy you could give to them on how they could lean into or awaken their brand magic More

Robert: 24:35

yeah. First of all, and I've said it so many times, and I'll say it again. Go. And by the influence, the psychology persuasion. It's not just about negotiation influence. Is the title, the Psychology of Persuasion Marketing is just about trying to persuade people to buy something from you. And if you understand the psychology of that and you understand the tricks of the trade then that is half the battle. Everybody thinks it's to do with algorithms and what color are you gonna use, what font you're gonna use. And of course, that's all important, but you have to know why people buy something in the first place, whether that's a ticket to the symphony or whether it's the can of Coke. There's a reason why Coca-Cola create those fantastic Christmas adverts. And that big Coca-Cola truck comes in a snowy city somewhere and it looks magical and there's fairy lights everywhere and it looks beautiful. It is just a can of

Beverly: 25:26

sugar, water,

Robert: 25:27

brown sugar, water. Yeah. But looking at that marketing, looking at that advert guy, it makes you feel at Christmas time that Coke is Christmas. Christmas is coke.

Beverly: 25:36

It creates a feeling, a very powerful feeling of connection. Yes.

Robert: 25:40

And they're persuading you. They're influencing you. So go and buy influence to psychology. Persuasion. I don't know the author. It was written when I was one years old. I've never spoken to him. It's got nothing to do with me. I just think it's a clever book that every human actually should read.

Beverly: 25:55

You're persuading every day. I tell my son all the time, yeah, you're marketing that you wanna join soccer, you're marketing that you, whatever the thing is what you wanna do, you have to know how to market it. So the mommy and daddy say yes.

Robert: 26:05

Exactly.

Beverly: 26:06

I agree completely. Yeah. Before we wrap up, I have a quick favor for my listeners. If today's episode sparked something in you, just leave us a review. Let us know what you learned, what really connected. It's really important'cause if we know you love it, it just creates more inspiration for us and for others who may find it helpful as well. So before we go though, Robert, please share where more people can learn about you and all the things you're involved in and upcoming, maybe events that you're participating in.

Robert: 26:33

Sure. Go to robert emery.com. R-O-B-E-R-T-E-M-E-R y.com. That's the main website. The Educational Music education website is Ted's List. My son is called Teddy, so it's named after him. That's TEDS with a-list.com, teds-list.com. But apart from that, just Google me and you'll see a ton of stuff come up.

Beverly: 26:55

Robert, it's been such a fun conversation today talking about music and life and confidence and influence. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your journey and a little bit of your magic with us. I really appreciate it.

Robert: 27:08

My pleasure. Thank you. I

Beverly: 27:09

know that our listeners are gonna walk away with some really great nuggets of information and just really enjoy our time together. I'm so grateful for you to spend this time with me and the impact that you're making on the world with music is very important.

Robert: 27:21

Thanks, Beverly.

Beverly: 27:21

So with that being said, if you found this to be inspiring, please make sure you tune in to future episodes of the Spark and Ignite your marketing podcast. But until next time, keep sparking and igniting.