Inside Zoho ‘s Culture with Kuppulakshmi Krishnamoorthy | Startups, Burnout & Leadership

What if Zoho is not a company, but a way of thinking?

I began this conversation thinking I was going to understand Kuppulakshmi Krishnamoorthy. But somewhere along the way, I realised I could not separate Kuppu from Zoho. They had almost become one language.

A senior evangelist. The founder of Zoho for Startups. A former Global Head of Zoho Startups.

And yet, what came through was a way of thinking.

Maybe that is what Zoho does so beautifully. It allows people to be themselves because the company itself is not trying to imitate anyone. It banks on originality, and more importantly, it knows how to harness it.

This conversation was about Zoho, yes. But it was also about work, identity, burnout, communication, Indian wisdom, and the discipline it takes to build something that still has a soul.

There was depth. There was honesty. There was philosophy. And yes, there was enough Zoho in it to make me seriously consider sending them my CV.

Here's the full conversation for you.

Thank you ! I hope today’s episode brought you closer to seeing yourself and the world around you with a little more clarity, love, and empathy. If something spoke to you today, —share it with someone who might need that same insight. And remember, the journey of self-acceptance and mindful thinking continues. Let’s keep the conversation going—find me on Instagram, Facebook, Threads, or YouTube, and let me know what’s on your mind. Until next time, stay kind to yourself and keep growing

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

A person has ego. An ego is something that we almost always attribute to negatively. I'm not talking from the panel. I'm asking what is Lomu's ego?

SPEAKER_02 0:10

My perspective, I think the ego is about what are you saying? We are only beginning. Can we take you chill and celebrate and uh you know be chill for some time?

SPEAKER_00 0:21

We were talking about transparency. What I hear many times, you know, I take that from a corporate to a personal level now. People tell me that you're too transparent. It feels like you're putting yourself down. Oh yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Yes. Have you heard this? You've heard a lot of people saying you're too easy to deal with or the competition is more rigorous and you can't survive in this world. The bootstrap mindset and the frugality of how we will approach this and transparency has helped us in the long game on being AI doc.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

It's a movie that's getting released, okay, where the you know um leaders, AI leaders are speaking, including the one who just suggested earlier. Now, what one of them said is that the the guy who is doing this uh narration allows you to ignore the AI to know that so much harm is going to come. Why should you stop it? Well in this one response, the person who wins will have control of the entire world. So my question to you is strategy about winning? Or is it about who loves the longest? Speak to all of us in that sense. Thank you so much for being here. I cannot tell you how grateful I am. Thank you too, Gai. Thank you. Equally my pleasure to be here. Let's start with my favorite question.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Who are you? Who is Kupilakshma? Who am I? So, this question has um caught me time and again, voluntarily and involuntarily, over a period of time. Because I've always seen myself as a person who lives in her head more than she actually lives. And this question has over time, who am I, has evolved from a sense of torture, a sense of discomfort, a sense of confusion and loss to a question that needs to be there. It's a necessity for me, uh, it's a part of me. And I it's like a friend sitting in a corner silently smiling at you. So I I see that I am a person that's made of different compartments, and based on what role I am playing, different personalities of me come out. So who I am when I'm inside my head or when I when I'm with myself is I would like to describe as I am is equal to ing. So I'm always thinking, learning, um confusing myself with complex things and giggling about it, and then evolving, and this year I've I'm aligning. This word kept coming to me in various forms. So this year I'm more aligning. So somewhere there's progress, no, this ING is who I am, and I'm very comfortable with this evolving, this state of uh I've befriended that ING. But I first I would like to think of myself as the most prominent part of me is from where I've gotten my values, from where this question has gained more importance, is the very reason why I exist. So my parents and what I am to my sister. Most part of me, I think, as a DNA, I carry my parents in my heart. So it's been more than a decade since I lost them in a very tragic way. However, over time I've understood my own way of grief and how I can carry them in my heart. Um accept the loss, but where can those lived experiences or life together go away? So I think we've lived a very intense life, how much time I got with them. So as a daughter, I'm incredibly grateful that I am their daughter, and what kind of values they gave in terms of how much respect you give to people, what work should mean to you by how they live their life. Where do you put money as part of your life? How important is good health, taking care of yourself, grooming yourself. So having been a daughter has been one of my first identities before I became a student, before I became a sister, and now I think of it more often. It's sort of in a funny way. Um I I do have multiple personality. So in general, when people from outside look at me, I think they think I'm a very serious person, which sometimes I am. I'm very pensive, I go deep in my thoughts. At the same time, I love living my life. I love every part, I'm very close to mother nature. So if you leave me alone in a forest or in a place where there's less people and more of nature, birds, flowers, plants, I can survive. This part of life, I am, like I said, I'm aligning to understanding what parts of me do I shed to feel a little more lighter spiritually, to feel a little more deeper and uh lighter emotionally and accept life as it comes than trying to, you know, uh meddle with it in some way, why this is happening to me, what should I do about it? So just be, you know, I'm trying to understand more of that. So in this phase of life, that is who I am, and I'm very I come from an enough space in a very satisfying way where I'm enough. I'm enough, yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Very, very deep and trying to process because uh you know I've told this to you off the camera that I feel like someday it feels like I'm seeing a version of myself in you 15 years hence. Um the ing that I would like to add to your list is reflective, and I think you're such a reflective person, reflective personality, which is not easy to handle. Like you said, many a times you feel like you're living here and not outside, living outside, and that seems to be something that can also be worrying for many people because you're you're constantly thinking and you're doing something else, or you're not.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

I joke about this a lot, guys. Right. One of the one of the who I am is it's part of the role. Yeah, I'm so much more other than the daughter, the sister, the wife. But as a wife, you should now that you say the most worried person should be my husband, because you must have seen at least 60 versions of me by now. I inflict. Which one did I even marry?

SPEAKER_00 7:48

I inflict that uh you know on Arvind's my husband a lot. And even this morning he said, Are you fine? Like, I'm not today, I'm okay. Right now, my brain is sorted, so I will come back to you when there's something else. But living within is a lot of work. Can you speak a little bit about living within your head? Inside your head.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Yes. Um, I don't remember this being this way always, but a lot of things played into how this came to be. Right. And even today, sometimes I think this is by design or by default, where I've accepted then questioning myself, saying, This is who you are, this is who you want to be, or circumstances led you to this. Correct. So a little things here and there, you know, I was put in school really early, eight months ahead, because maybe I started talking earlier than uh I was supposed to, and I started writing, so they didn't know what to do with me at home. Okay, and they sent me to school really early. But that did not really help where I even now I remember I have vivid memories in school where I was the most quiet girl in the class, not belonging to any gang. Um, someone will only think of me in hindsight saying, Oh, we left her behind, she was used to be part of our lunch gang to everything. So um that gave me a lot of space to be just with myself. So then you would I would do a if I'm reading a Shakespeare book, I would do a conversation in my head on how the scene would play out. So that brought out the stage presence, saying, Okay, I could do some acting, and then a lot of conversations happen in monologue and dialogues where when you uh are given a topic and you're expected to speak on it, I realized I became extemporaneous that way. So a mix of introvert and extrovert came together where if I have to be there for people, I can bring that out. But minus that, I'm a very introverted person who likes so many situations contributed to that where I also realized because of these conversations, a cause and effect, no, the effect of all of these was that I gravitated more towards books, more towards nature, and with those very few people who can survive in a certain level of depth, survive and thrive. So my oxygen in life is deep intellectual conversation, which might look like, oh, this person does not know how to have fun. Correct. That's what I told you. People think I'm very serious. So this is how it came to be about, and I realized that there's no constant in this. Correct. Because I'm moving, thinking, reflecting, so things will change. Correct. So the best part is to understand that I am always in this ing, and when I'm aware of it, I'm very careful to not break it with the loved ones, you know. To do some walking, I do the extra walking sometimes, like you said, it could be worrisome for the loved ones otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yes, absolutely. And I think as you were speaking again, it felt like I was talking to a version of myself, and I don't think I would have been able to put it out there so well, so rightly said. I've also had very similar experiences even in school, even in college. I won't call myself the odd man standing, but I was the girl in the background. I understand. She was there, exactly, and that l leads you to uh becoming more confident about what you're feeling on the inside. Sure. And I think that sort of reflection, that sort of compartmentalizing comes with experience, no doubt.

SPEAKER_04 11:19

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Uh for me today, I'm in the face where I'm learning still to compartmentalize. With that uh thought, Kupu, uh, you are heading an organization that requires a lot, of lot, of lot of compartmentalizing. Can we talk a little bit about that before I head into the list of questions that I have for you? How do you feel, Ku Lakshmi as the global head of Zoho startups? How do you feel uh sitting in that spot? You've you've you've done the 15 years, you've been in the system for so long. So if you can talk about it, it'll be great.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

So, in the workforce itself, as a woman who goes to work career-oriented with the intentionality, I've been in the workforce for over 25 years now, for which a majority of 15 years of my life has been with Zoho. And over a period of time, I've done many roles. When I joined Zoho, I joined as a trainer who trained people on soft skills and communication. How do you use your personality to be on stage and connect with that end user where you're talking about complex things called technology? So your storytelling cannot be watered down, it can't be too simplistic and saying you can wave a wand of magic with SaaS and your business will be sorted. So it gradually moved from um being a trainer to taking some parts of the presentation and say, How if I will feel if I'm the end user, what do these marketing materials mean to me, or if I land on a website, how does this speak to me too? So transitioned, evolved into this role where you have this very unique thing as part of the culture and Zoho where the promotion or what happens typically in many organizations, it does not happen this way here. So the global head, the startup program was more like a means. Now I have certain intellectual capacity, and now first primarily I know the vision and mission of the organization. Now, combine this and this. What does the market want? That's the third angle, the most important angle, where revenue is generated. That's how it came to be. It definitely did not happen in the way like formally it happens in organizations. So I thought about like a reverse math, you know, you know the answer, yeah, you know where you should be headed, and you have a confidence that partly you can do this and partly the organization has got your back. So it came to be about saying, give me this because I want to do this for the organization, and I have a certain capacity in which I can learn, make mistakes, uh, come to you, ask for help. So this is one of the happiest places I have been, where happiness or joy also means pulling my hair out. Starter World is Alive 24-7, and all kinds of conversations happen, and it's different when you're part of the organization than an entrepreneur yourself. So I'm not the CEO, but I work with a lot of CEOs, so it's it's a very delicate place to be a tight rope to walk, and people do expect you to walk it very gracefully. So, how do you do graceful when there's so much pressure? Correct. So I took this up in a way, say, let me see. You know, people say in textbooks and all of that, like an entrepreneur, don't worry about don't plan too much, jump off the hill, and as you head downwards, build what you have to build. That's not really my style. Correct. I kind of knew where I would be with this in five years' time, and I also knew what are the pivoting things I have to do if things don't go the way it the you know they have we planned it to be or the way they pan out. So it was very open-minded, and as a means to achieve where the organization should go, this title was born. Right. So more than the sense of power, I've always inclined towards it as a part of vulnerability, as a part of responsibility. Um, so it's gone very well. It's one of the most enjoyable roles I've ever had to play with.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

It's amazing to uh hear uh Kopoo. You were speaking about startup. There's this delusion that startup is you know um inherent, I mean, inherently um, you know, a path to struggle, right? People understanding what a startup really itself is a delusion today. Like people think that I start something and there is a lot of struggle, that's a startup. I've heard this many times. Can you tell me, do people actually know what a startup is? In your experience, what all have you heard? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

So um the delusion used to be more, say eight to ten years ago, because it became a buzzword. Silicon Valley, how do we replicate that in India? So in 2016-17, uh, just before we thought at Zoho that we'd come up with a program, I do understand there was a lot of buzz and and people were dizzy about this word startup, saying, I also want to be an entrepreneur, I'll go register my business. I have an idea. Today, eight, nine years down the lane, what has happened to this ecosystem is a sense of coming of age, a maturity. Also, because a lot of good founders have now completed their cycle and kind of you know properly pivoted or exited, or they have the experience of what really goes into this. You know, you've seen it from the other side on Silicon Valley making it big, and the startups are like the most uh fascinating lifestyle to be, uh to adapt. Yeah, and somewhere now India's come to this very mature place where I see people have an entrepreneurial mindset. So everybody has an idea, somehow they feel more confident about how do I use my intellectual capacity and change it, change my idea into like a product or a service. So I think it's more they have a curiosity about how can I become an entrepreneur, which is a very good development from what the delusion that it was. And now there are more and more people talking about uh there is a good side, you get to be the CEO, you you get to be employing a lot of people, changing their lives, disruption. Correct. Whenever we talk about disruption and innovation, the other side of the same coin is also you're unearthing something, you're disturbing something, you're changing something, and the sense of responsibility I've seen in certain startup founders, amazing human beings, and a kind of a whole you know, life comes in full circle form where they talk about the mistakes. They talk about it's not the cake work that it is, it's not easy to get funding, it is not easy to handle um attritions when people leave because maybe your startup is not doing as well as the the grass on the other side, it's greener. So I see there are more people who have humanized this whole um otherwise you know fantasy world called the startup. So it's very practical right now. The government, each state government, and our own startup India has come up with a lot of policies that talk in human language. You don't really have to be an IAM graduate or a B school thing, but you understand in grassroots levels with this idea or with this product, I still have I can have the entrepreneurial mindset. So that change is very, very gratifying to see. It's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

I would say 15 years plus. Um, is a company's scale a metamorphosis into something uh better, or are we still struggling to, you know, kind of um keep the soul from being diluted or crushed? Because you know, the change is constant. And when we speak about scale, scale also means that there are a lot more people, sure, a lot more systems. Absolutely. So, how do you retain that soul of an organization while you know we speak about metamorphosis in general?

SPEAKER_02 19:26

This this question is very deep. Um, I would say when we let's let's break this down a bit. When I look at India and when I look at work, my take, my approach work of work is what we have always talked about in Vedas and how in in Indian culture it is passed on across generations where work is worshiped. And to put this back in context of how this looks in a corporate culture, I think that's where when an organization is poised for scale, the most important quality that you see in leaders is they have the foresight. Right. You know, people can be very skilled, intelligent, but when intelligence gets catalyzed into wisdom, no, they have the foresight, they know what's going to happen in five years and what I have to make it happen in five years. So now they start grooming leaders who speak the same language in terms of ethics, in terms of morales and values that cannot be taught. Which is why every HR world you see, they'll speak the language of higher for attitude, and then we can train for aptitude. You don't have uh the bandwidth to train people on how they have to understand the vision and mission. So, today, if my founders talk about uh why living a simple life is as important, why you have to respect Mother Earth as we build more data centers, it also means with great power comes great responsibility. This is like the fundamental or the backbone of growth, for which scaling becomes not so um worrisome. It does, it is, it is important to have that little concern, but that concern should translate into action, right? Your HR has to come together. Correct. The senior leaders should come together and say, okay, this is how the culture was. When we were there, we can call ourselves family, we can have conversations that are informal and casual. But when we want to look at replicating this for 5,000 more people, how will the chorus look exactly? Will it not get diluted? Of course it will, which is why you need written statements that people can see everywhere on what Zoho's vision and mission is. Because everybody who joins the organization talks about growth. Correct. And growth first comes to the company, right? What can I do for the organization? What does it want? Second is what does my team in this want? Because Zoho, when I joined, we were like 1500, to now we have 50. To 20,000 people and scattered a little bit across the world. Now, scaling has to translate, vision and mission has to translate across culture to an office that is just open in Brazil, to what work means for them. And in one corner in Africa, in Nigeria, we have to translate the same value. Now, of course, it'll get diluted, but in that translation, we can't let go of the whole meaning of wise or who's doing what it's doing. So this constant repetition, we see, we hear, we practice it every day, and which is why we have a flat hierarchy. The CEO is approachable, any VP in the organization. We don't have uh cabins in which we sit where people have to wait outside, knock at a door. Anybody who walks into any floor, they won't be able to see who holds what title. Right. Um, so this all of this put together has helped us in looking at scale. Now, interestingly, this week we are celebrating a milestone with that little bit of, you know, when you bake a beautiful cake, that pinch of salt does the magic. No, people don't know it's part of an important part of a recipe, a pie that you bake. Like that salt, it's important to understand the responsibility, you know. That little fear that jitters is a good part of um, okay, you've achieved something, but that little salt is keeping you grounded, saying, Now how do I replicate it? So we are celebrating one million paid users this week from just having one million um hundred million users. In that we have paid users, which is like a good feat to achieve, and it's always 30 years old now. Now, look at us as a startup. Now we have gone from early stage to a proper sustainable business. Now we are scaling. Now is when we talk more seriously and more frequently about what scaling means to us. So customer delight, uh, the differentiation in the market is how we treat the customers in the saturated SAS. So leaders, when they pass the beton on to the next generation of leaders with trust, I think it does not get diluted, but it takes different forms where different people talk the same language, slightly different. It's like teachers in a school, the same curriculum, but I teach it in my own style. But what's the ultimate the river meets the tributary meets the ocean, right? So different paths, but make sure it all comes to the same vision and mission. Let the path be different, different style.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah, and I think uh so rightly put, the amount of effort that needs to go into visibly showing what you want to be, right? It is important. We all uh, you know, we think, oh, why is there a board here? Why is there, you know, why are they talking the same line again and again? Yeah. But the impact that it very quietly creates is so important. And uh, you know, the pinch of salt you said makes the whole thing different, right? And you don't uh you don't uh what do you call like you said, it takes the shape of I mean it takes the form of what it has to become because end of the day it reaches the ocean.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

But you have to have it together at all times, even if they are even if the ways are different. I mean, all of us have a goal and we reach it in different ways and methods, like you spoke, spirituality, right? Earlier you mentioned the word spiritual, even that many people take different paths, but the goal is you know ultimately the same.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

It has to be the same, exactly like that I think. You made a point, right? We do get wake-up calls every now and then that we're not speaking enough about how we scale it, you know. Exactly. Uh can you keep the integrity in place even as you're evolving? Can you do the same thing without changing? Yes. Just because you're doing more of it. Absolutely. Because the wake-up call comes in the form of oh, Zoho is a dream company, it gives free lunches, it has flexibility, it has great work-life balance. Great, but a a company needs to remain great, right? Yes, which is like everyday work, and that's not beautiful all day. Absolutely. It's very boring, it's repetitive. Correct. We get wake-up calls every now and then saying, okay, let's let's do something, you know, talk, have a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Yes, absolutely. And I think uh the next, you know, there are two parts of you know, I want to take away from what you've said. One is that pinch of salt. Let me start at that. You know, I was looking at uh Zoho's uh startup page yesterday, scrolled all the way down, read everything, you know, about the product and all that, and then I went all the way down and I saw FAQ. I wanted to see what uh because uh in our office we use Zoho, so I wanted to see what sort of uh questions have been put there, and I found a very interesting word called, you know, um limitations. Okay, I was like, okay, fine, let me go and read through it. And I read it and it was talking about things that Zoho is not able to do, right? For you, and it was like something burst in my head. I was like, what? Can I go back and read that again? And so I went through the entire list again. I was like, how is it that they've put this out there? Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, because um I want to know what what sort of a power there is when you talk about your limitations, because not all companies do it. I've never I've never read an FAQ that says, you know, these are things we cannot do for you. It's always rosy, they always want to give you solutions in an FAQ, right? Or it's quite uh masked, well masked, I would say. Even when I have some difficulty, you know, reversing a payment, for instance, yeah, in some uh company, they say that you know, go to the customer support. Go to it, doesn't tell you that they cannot do it in these cases, but when I saw this, I was like, look at the power of understanding your own limitations. So can you speak about that attitude, uh?

SPEAKER_02 28:02

So till you notified me of this, I really don't remember that Zoho has in different places limitations. I do have I've heard of this word in different forms, right? Perhaps it meant the same thing. This definitely comes from the top. You know, like I said, even when we scale, there are certain things that are non-negotiable, and this is right from day one when someone enters Zoho, they get it very clear as part of onboarding. Um, how much of information we retain and you know uh everyday remember how this translates into your work is each person's capacity. This transparency is what has gotten to where we are now, and it will get us further. So, in the SaaS world, we commonly joke about a frequent joke that comes up is is this a bug or is this a feature? So, this is one such where you very nicely looked at it like it's a feature. But many a times think of that end user who perhaps has never touched SaaS in their life, and they come to this really fancy terms called CRM, marketing automation, a social media manager who could manage multiple platforms with just one click, and they'll be so fascinated, they think that SaaS does everything. Right. And Zoho takes pride in being one of the most affordable software companies that does not burn a hole in your pocket. Now, this is marketing language, lingo, right? Now, when you translate this into sales, when someone pays for their license and buys, we keep telling them you don't have to come to the paid version of any product. We take pride in giving you a premium version where you use it like a sandbox, play around, you know, tinker a bit here and there. And during this trial period, there's trial and then there is free editions. So the trial gets you the most premium edition to play around with, and in a sense, after that 15 or 20 days, you're kind of downgraded to now make a choice. Now you've got the full capacity, and we keep placing the free editions also as part of the pricing page, it's not hidden anywhere. Right. And then there are so many stories we have case studies where people in the premium version have done incredibly well for their business. So when when so much rosy uh you know carpet is laid in front of you, very often we forget to see that okay, a free edition has to stop somewhere. Yeah, we are business after all, and so much language we can't put it out there, which means you have to upgrade now that you're serious about now. When the minute you want a fancy feature, which means you're scaling, which means you have a revenue, now it's time that you upgrade. Many a times it might have happened in the past where people forget that there are stops to where this can go that needs to have a word that sounds like a red alarm that's blinking right in your eye, otherwise, you're not looking. Why can't we say it upfront than those hidden service level agreements where I just feel like walking into a trap? This is too good to be true. Too good to be true is not how you want to approach your data with uh invest in a software vendor with this angle. Why can't we be very transparent? So, one thing I have noticed, I am a microbiologist turned software evangelist, and I have read white papers of Zoho, I have read data center operations on how we function, how we cool those systems. Someone like me, not from a tech background, can understand. This speaks to the quadrant of oh, I don't know that I have to know about all of this when I choose a software vendor. But look, they are talking about it, they're educating me. Empowering is in a way where you ask questions on my behalf and give me answer where wow, I didn't know that. Now I am smarter than I was. So I've really had I have goosebumps now as I talk about it because it's a very personal experience where um you think that as a microbiologist, what am I doing here? You know, every now and then there's a question, but such things make it feel like okay, I can be the end user and still feel proud about the company I'm representing. So the white papers are written in plain English. What we do with anybody's data after they choose to leave Zovo is written in plain English. So it's what you see is what you get, and with this limitation, we make people see what they have to see. So the transparency has actually helped us in establishing that trust all along.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Wow, because um, see for me, you you were talking about transparency. What I hear many times, you know, I take that from a corporate to a personal level now. Sure. Uh many times, you know, people tell me that you're too transparent, it feels like you're putting yourself down. Oh, yes, yes. Have you heard this? And you know, it may come off very differently. The question could be very different for a corporate, but this is what I hear. Yes. What do you hear?

SPEAKER_02 33:04

So we we've heard a you know, a bouquet, a range of a rainbow of all of this. Okay. Some of we have partners across the world who take Zoho and help in implementation with customers. For example, some of them have said, you know, um, why can't you price yourself a little bit more for the kind of things that you offer to the world? We've heard that. We've also heard people saying, you know, uh, in the business world, there's cutting edge, there's gorilla marketing, you come across as too smooth. This once again comes from the top. We are plain and boring like that. So we've come to do um in without so many shades to do a business transaction, which is also why we remain bootstrapped. You know, we don't want to add. See, I'm saying we so many times, like I'm I'm part of this founding thing, but it's ingrained in us uh that we've seen it in action, right? From uh the customer, advocacy, head to the VP. Everybody, when you don't notice them, when you've asked them the same thing in different platforms, they don't remember right what they have said five years ago. Correct. So the answer remains constant from different people. Um, so yes, we've we've heard a lot of people saying you're too easy to deal with or the competition is more rigorous and you can't survive in this world. The bootstrapped mindset and the frugality of how we will approach this and transparency has helped us in the long game. You know, we we're running a campaign called It Takes Time. This, like you said, it comes beautifully from a corporate to a personal level, also. Anything beautiful that takes time. So somehow this has helped in understanding that if you want to make things that are valuable that people appreciate, it won't come with this confetti and uh loud trumpets, it can happen quietly, sitting in some village in Tenkasi. We can still change the world, impact the world, and be very steady at it.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Absolutely, and I think uh what an amazing answer. Um you know it sometimes I feel that Zohu is a living, breathing person, and that's where my question actually came from because I I find that there's so much life in the system, right? And uh it's phenomenal how you spoke about it. You know, there was so much depth, but the depth also meant there was so much simplicity to the core of what Zoho really stands for today. But a person has ego, and ego is something that we almost always attribute to negatively today. I'm not talking from the tangent, I'm asking you what is Zoho's ego.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Wow. I'll see how I can do a very honest take at that. Two sides one see Zoho's core principles have been three P's the people, the product, and the process. So these three we keep going back to in different layers. People involve two sides, that was just saying one is your customer and one is your employee. I could safely and honestly say that a constant ego for Zoho is how do we continue this picture? You know, in Hindi they say picture that sense of fulfillment should give you the refuel to you know keep this going. And in a certain sense of age or how how old Zoho is, we have exactly been now poised at that acceleration where now we have a long way to go and we have just begun. That can hit in different ways based on who you are, how long you have been, how many intense years you've spent in the organization, and a lot of collective good and bad experiences. So, from my perspective, I think the ego is about what are you saying? We are only beginning. Can we take a chill and celebrate and you know, be chill for some time, but then a change has come and there's a foresight. You always get notified of what kind of bubble to expect, where do you put your money and where not? We've always got this precious advice saying, Don't go lock yourself in a loan. No, be free in the certain sense and all of that. So I wish that uh ego came from that sense of yes, acknowledge first that we this is not a small fee. Yeah, and now from here, what what is visible to the top leaders?

SPEAKER_00 37:47

No, I love that the ego is not a statement but a question. It is because you're not defining yourself, you're not putting yourself in that limitation, it's limitless. What next? Yeah, that's your e if that's your ego, I think uh that's very troublesome, you know, sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

I don't doubt doubt it, but as much as excitement there is, it also is like, why one more change so soon?

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Why are we settling now? But uh fantastic. I'm so happy. I want to work in Zoho now.

unknown 38:20

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

My my CV will follow.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

Sure, sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

If you feel that uh, you know, in the Vedas, there was so much about management, right? Thousands of years ago it was written, and there's so much that we can take from it now. I think this is also a conversation we had on another occasion. Yeah, why are we struggling today with burning out? There is stress, there is tension, there is this pressure of running a business where we have already got something so solid from our culture available to us. But we look at management looks written somewhere else in some other part of the world, and we are trying to follow that right. Can you connect these two dots for me? Because you seem like somebody who has thought about it quite a bit. So if you can speak about that, it'll be wonderful because I feel like Zoho as a company, you as a person, are very, very grounded and rooted in the reality of our culture. Right. Right. And that should have some basis. Now we speak about this basis as you know the scriptures that we have. Yeah. I feel like this message has to go to the globe that India. I'll just give you an example why I wanted to talk about this specifically. This morning I was watching some uh something on my phone, a video, where uh there is one gentleman, a researcher who has gone to a temple in India. Some I think he is an American, if I'm not mistaken, has gone to a temple, uh, you know, very, very old temple in India, and he zoomed into a small statue right on top, saying that just see that this was many thousands of years ago built. Okay, has the logo of Louis Vuitton. Wow. That Padma, that flower has the logo of Louis Vuitton exactly as it is. Wow. So the inspiration could have come from there. We are not talking about the origins of it, but that it was already there. Yeah, where it came from, how it came about, another story. But the origin, I mean, I won't call it the origin, but it is there, it was already there. Yeah, so I was able to connect to this thought immediately, saying that we already have it. Yes, are we aware of it? Yes, I don't think so. Wonderful. Are we are we uh using it to our advantage? I don't think so. So, can you talk about it? I felt so connected to this uh question I'd written earlier, but this morning as I watched that video, I felt you know, are we looking at it?

SPEAKER_02 41:01

As as you speak, there's so many emotions coming up, memories, conversations I've had with my parents. Um, sometimes in life we have a conversation that's just fleeting at that moment, it just we laugh about it or acknowledge it and go on. And then it comes back in those times where wow, I didn't know that conversation had left an imprint so deep that now it's my guiding light in life. So imagine just a random Sunday at home. So it's just me and my sister and my parents, and then Sunday is one day we look forward to because my parents have been teachers, and all the time we've had students at home. So likewise, if the teachers are always focused on other people's kids and not looking at your kids, perhaps that's how the meaning came out to be, but we've always seen them every day like clockwork. 4:30, the lights have to be on at our home in the morning. Oh my god. From there to uh putting columns to getting us ready, two girls, long hair, you know, do all that uh to have rituals in place, to have healthy home cooked hot meal every day, packed lunch, clean home. I've seen these two work like worker bees all the time and not complain about it, not find excuses to fall sick, not complain about the world. So I remember you know, a few years ago this memory came from somewhere subconscious. So I'm just asking my mom jokingly, when will you even sit down? And what keeps you know in some sense I asked her what keeps you going like this? You know, three o'clock I have to make tea, and uh 8:30 you're in bed every day. You know, aren't you bored? Don't you want to say I just now want to sit down and do nothing? And I'm not seeing you complaining, I've rarely seen people, my parents fall sick. So she she didn't hesitate for a moment. In Tamil, she said, I'm doing it. It translates roughly to there's no thought put into oh, I have to do this work and now I have to prepare for it. You just have to do work because you have to do it. And I didn't know that this is a very um humble interpretation of what she said, karma yoga. And around the time they passed away, I unearthed a lot of journals my mother used to write. And in one of those random journals, I pick and I open and I see this page. What coincidence can this be? Because at that time I have I have been harboring a lot of questions about my work, my identity. How should I evolve? What happens now if if I change into something else? I don't know, but then randomly, like a blessing, I read what her definition of. Karma yoga is and it's exactly this she has not gone to school, nobody taught her Bhagavad Gita, nobody told her that karamaya say palana yadr pa ka de but that's what they have been living. So I think from a very early life, we have watched the two most important people show by example, by everyday life and action and the choices that they make. And that got into me perhaps at a very early stage on what work should mean. And now with this little bit of um nudging, now you want to know more knowledge about what is this that I'm thinking, what is karma yoga, and slowly now you have the number of apps that translate Bhagavad Gita into understandable language and still not take away the intellectual depth of all of this. So, how can anyone just put in efforts and not expect outcomes? You know, at Phil, honestly, Phil, what nonsense all of us want outcomes. Eventually, pain, circumstances, people, experience teach you that this is what it is, and now you look at this with the lens of mental health, and everybody talks about burnout, everybody talks about sometimes it's just so lightly mentioned, you know, or I'm so ocidified. But burnout is real because somewhere we for rule by the British, right? Colonialism happened, industrial revolution happened, so the want to evolve also brings with it certain curse. With this intellect that we have gained, can we look wisely at the demons that come with that? Where we were always made for a sense of purpose, curiosity was the guiding light. And how far can I travel alone? I have to take people with me, so there was always community. Wisdom was shared, like say Guru cool to everything. You do the work for the guru, so you're humbled, and you also learn where wisdom overflows. Anytime I see I spot the guru, like every other human being, so I approached, there was no hierarchy, there was not the sense of control. Now, this curiosity, this free-flowing wisdom, people who are approachable, available for you, is now inter-colonialism, it's translated into I need validation, I have hierarchy, and this hierarchical people seem to have a sense of control saying I have answers to all the questions. Burnouts will happen. We are not designed for this, and somewhere in this innovation, I think we've not I think we witness that fundamentals are being forgotten, no basic necessities like a good road. Yes, safety for women in the night. How do you find more women founders anyway? If all your community meetups are after seven o'clock, correct. Whether or not, however, your family is designed, you do have responsibilities, right? Nobody can run away from that. Every design now has a faulty um on which it is standing, a foundation. Burnouts will happen. And when when they happen, it's like a point of no return. You know, we talk about how to escape burnout, yeah, but as much can we have conversations on burnouts will happen because the system was not designed for us. Now, in a corporate world where appraisals and you know profit sharing are talked about, somewhere, even with competent skills, you're put in a rat race. Like the person sitting next to me could be business development. I might be from marketing, and we don't have to compete. But then there's a sense of uh a hurriedness, a hustle culture, which was never part of us. Nature was such an integral part from Surya Namaskar to for women, for men, there were so many things, whichever religion you are, whatever spirituality, nature was always part of us. Now we have ignored her for the longest. Now we are trying to use technologies, you know, they show this very painful meme where we have cut down forests and we have displaced many birds and animals, but now we are taking those very trees that were natural homes and building artificial homes and nests for them, you know, those little wooden carved structures. How deeply it has to hit us that most important component we are ignoring. How many sunsets or sunrise? Do we have to take a vacation to enjoy this? Burnouts will happen. So understanding this gives a sense of peace, saying this is all I could do, and I will bring the best of myself to do what I can do in a day. And I will keep putting my focus on to the effort that I make because things will change today. Claude has dropped Anthropic CEO. Every day there's an interview that's coming. What was so important five months ago has been displaced with agent TKI. Absolutely. So I can see why it is happening, but we've not begun serious conversations about mental health because then we will have better roads, then we will hold our politicians to what they promised. We will learn more to be uh citizens that appreciate each other and just not honk at every signal, for example. So there's a lot of responsibility. The minute you show mirror, there's a lot of mirror showing at us too. So the third angle of how do we look at all of this at a citizen as a citizen of a country also is being forgotten, I think.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

So burnouts will happen. Absolutely. And I think uh that was one of the questions I asked in another interview. You know, there is this uh angle of the self, the growth of the self, but when are we going to start looking at the citizen angle of it? Yes, right, and uh it's not lost on me. I think uh even schools these days, I would say that uh uh, you know, the way that they're being asked to um look at things is very complex. Yes, they're going the opposite direction. Yes, in the name of expanding our mind to think differently, we're going the opposite direction. And I think one thing I took away from what you told is that our origin was very simple. We did something because we had to do. It's not about not being able to ask a question saying, why should I do it? But rather why I was doing something true, simply, true, simply put, I think.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

That way the ego does not come in between, saying, I created something, how can that not be correct? Exactly. And interestingly, not just in Gita, we have Khalil Gibran right on work, we have Kabir K dohe that has been written on work. Somewhere, you know, it it's on us in one way. How did we get lost?

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Yeah, and I think uh we I think we are also allowing for a lot of influence to happen. Sure. That that we are stereotyping ourselves to think that you know this is how it needs to be, and that's why we are that expansion of mind is what we think is expansion is actually limiting us. I think that awareness is something uh, you know, when there are more and more reflective people like you going and speaking to people, I think the influence will slowly change, but eventually it has to. There is no choice that has absolutely and you know when you were talking about books, um Kupu, uh circling back, you know, this there is this thing, you know, when you're so reflective in nature, when you're the ink quotient, as you were saying, is so high. There is also this side where you are continuing to practically work through your work. Like work is work, yes, you know, there are certain things you have to put aside there. Yes. So, in that sense, I want to ask you strategy is something that we all look at, and you are you are a strategist yourself. So tell me from your experience. I watched this uh uh you know trailer um uh a few days, I mean, just a few days back on the AI doc. It's a movie that's getting released, okay, where uh you know um leaders, AI leaders are speaking, including the one you just suggested earlier. Um now what one of them said is that uh the the guy who was doing this uh narration, the guy who's interviewing all the AI leaders, he asked, if you know there's so much harm that's going to come, why aren't you stopping? Wow, wow okay, and then there's one response, it's a trailer, so I don't know if it was a direct response, but my understanding of that response was there's one guy who's saying that you know the person who wins right the person who wins will um you know what do you call it will have control of the entire world. So my question to you is strategy is about winning or is it about who lasts the longest? How are we looking at it today?

SPEAKER_02 53:05

Okay, I know I know you've given me enough context to understand. Um if you had asked me let's say five years ago, I would say strategy is all about winning. Just have your own equation, have the path very clear. That's what everybody does. I think at that point in life, that's what work meant, where it's a mean to earn your income, not like something that guides your soul or that helps you see it as a catalyst to impact other people's life. Yeah, no, this understanding was there, but level one, yeah, you know, kindergarten level of understanding. So that was about winning. You know, get your promotion, show your work, be better than others, get the spotlight. Now I would say, which is also why I relate so much to why anything that's beautiful and worthy takes time. I relate so much to that campaign, you know, things that last take time, it takes time. So I would say now this strategy of long-term game is what gives inner peace in one way a stability to say, I don't have to take myself too seriously. The world is not on my shoulders, and this thought does not saturate into anyway. I'm just not even creating a dent. People forget Steve Jobs. So I joke about this to my daughter saying, Um, Thomas Alva Edison, do you remember? I ask her, she's saying, Yaruma, who is this? Come on, he invented no electricity. You know, you have but do you whenever you switch on the light? It's so important. No, you know, when there's darkness and you look for a candle, which is very rare in this world, but switch on the light, do you say, Oh, thank you, Thomas Alva Edison? Without you, no, so it's it's an integral part of your life, even for people who did just groundbreaking innovation or things that changed human race. We are tiny. This thought of let me not take things seriously saturates into what difference am I going to make in this world? Can I just get up, do whatever? It is not that. So, in a nice sense, without uh so this transfers pressure, stress, burnout into a joy. No, now you have a sense of enoughness. I don't have to do five years of things now. That's not how I can't talk to the plant and say, give me the fruit now because I've given you all the fertilizer and water you need for the next five years. It will take time. Because of our wisdom interfering in so many ways, how we think that we have to grow so fast. Nobody to tell us that you're growing. You will know perhaps in five years you look and you'll be amazed at yourself. Look how far you have come. So in all of this put together, it's I think people you will know from the answer in what stage of life they are in. You can ask this question to perhaps know that. So now I'm in a stage where it takes time. And for me, winning is about not finding myself alone on top of any successful mountain. Have I created at least two people who will say she can she has done that? In my own way, I will do that. Not in the same replicating anything way, but I can do that too.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

So that takes some time. Fantastic. And I think very rightly said, you know, what depending on the answer, you will know where exactly they are, right? Very smart, uh, smart way to think about it, also, you know, because you you go from that winning to you know lasting, and I think that lasting is what we build for, sustainably, you know, staying for a longer period of time. And I think it's uh fantastic, even though the lines are getting very blurry these days, because you don't know sometimes, you know, when you when you don't taste that twin, sure, you don't know if you want to just uh somehow the winning is tied with satisfaction, you know? Absolutely, absolutely, and um that takes me to the next uh critical thing that I want to talk about in this world and in the Zera today. Um with so many apps, so much uh possibility to communicate with each other, I feel like we are the lot that is widely misunderstood. Yes, okay, yes, and also uh feel very, very unheard.

unknown 57:37

True.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

We spoke about another era where people just did their work, communication was at a minimum, sure, but here we are today with everything that we require to communicate, but still have these feelings. How can we become good communicators? So now we solve the real problem. Seems like the problem is in the communication, the way that we communicate. Sure. I'll go straight to the question. How can we become good communicators?

SPEAKER_02 58:08

So there's no one stop we reach where you know we announce that now I have become a good communicator, now there is no more work to be done. Correct. And now work and opportunities and network are exposing us to different age groups, different socioeconomic background people who come from um everywhere, and we talk about different topics. You know, the conversation about generalists versus specialists keep coming up in startup world, especially. Um I see myself having evolved from wanting to make my point. The minute someone stops for breath, I get it, you know, my chance to speak at the table. Now, slowly to to have gained that calm confidence, saying, I will get my turn, let me listen to what so in that process, there was a bulb-glowing moment where open-mindedness is not about gravitating towards my favorite answer. I'm satisfied, my ego is satisfied, I got what I want. Open-mindedness is about being comfortable with that thorn in your seat, you're squirming, but why uh can I can I just pull back and see what is this discomfort? This is exactly what I wanted to hear. That's open-mindedness, right? So when you look, put this back in communication. If you water it down, you would say communication is all about to understand and to be understood. Now, in this, both have to uh walk a certain distance where the person who's communicating verbally or non-verbally has to make an effort to be understood. Correct. And the person who is listening should make the effort to gain get the message as it is, not levels of their own wisdom, not levels of their own uh you know judgments. Correct. But that's natural to happen. At least acceptance and awareness of that. Hey, I'm judging that person. Can I be a little more relaxed and say perhaps I was worse than them at that age? That's where empathy gets built. No, it's very superficial to put it in the American way of walking in somebody's shoes. Yeah, we have Vedas and Puranas that talk about that Kamaradri, that brotherhood, Yadamore, Yavaram Kelila, easy line karayata. It's it tells you how how you know we pray for the world. Correct. How uh it's it's kutumpakam, it's one family. And now we are told don't be so emotional when you talk about everything. You can't imagine India 2047 without emoting that, you know. So communication is that core in this changing world. You and I can be different, but we have the same function, our eyes, our ears, we have the same anatomy. Communication is that bridge where my heart can connect to yours, my mind can connect to yours with that little intention. Right. This needs introspection every day, for which it goes back to how we brought corporate culture hustle. Oh, I'm so busy all the time. Can we just relax, introspect 20 minutes every day to journal or talk to yourself or talk to somebody who's available? To how you communicated in the past week? Did you hurt someone? Did you say intentionally something that need not be said? You got a message from someone and brooded over it for longer than it was required. Now can you become better? So a lot of communication with the self and about the topics that keep coming to you. Why am I worried about something happening in Africa? I have no control over, but that's not apathy, right? It's saving your energy for the right kind of empathy, for the right kind of topic. Absolutely. Just because we have tab in our hands now, we learn everywhere what's happening, and we have no control over. So communication is in one way a very lighter concept and in also very deeper where we keep evolving to precisely answer your question. Just because we have libraries, do we have wise people all around us? Just I know you know the answer. Just because we have communication tools, can we be a little more clear? No, I was just telling you a few minutes ago how WhatsApp is now interfering with my mental health, and I'm acutely aware of that. This is not that discomfort, it's grown over a period of time, and it really is bothering me. It's messing with my reputation, it's putting me on that. Oh, I forgot something. Yeah, brink of anxiety. Right. Now it's up to me, human, to take courage and compassion and communicate, saying only this time, only these many times, only these many messages. Else have to go email way, else have to go out. Correct. And who will give us the validation saying hundred emails or ten messages you get? It's okay to not answer all of that. Correct. The biggest liberation, if someone needs to hear it, don't have to answer all emails. Don't have to answer all messages. This fundamentally means you need validation that you are a good person here. That's not going to help you. So a lot of communication with yourself, a lot of communication with people around you from listening open-mindedly. Let me not be in a hurry to respond. Right. We can train. Thankfully, there are tools also to tell ourselves, to watch ourselves, to understand a pattern of communication. Slight modification. For which every day sit 20 minutes, do a rewind play. Joke to yourself, don't be so harsh. No, that's something I did long back, and I realized that it burnt my hands. Too much setting high standard for yourself, yeah. And then getting disappointed with everybody else because they are not meeting you there. No, that's the work that you have to do. Sometimes it helps you in taking easy and driving in the third gear. Yeah. That helps you relax. No, why are you so serious? So sometimes doing both helps. So communication tools. So here is a quote that speaks to me a lot. The human element of any technology is far more important than the technology itself. How I use WhatsApp in my hands, how I use phone in my hands is totally up to us. And thankfully, we have all the Vedas and Upanishads to tell us how you can be more self-aware in a very grounding sense. And in also the other sense of I am one with the God. God is in me. In that way I'm blessed. That way also I'm grounded. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

I mean, my where we started to how we, you know, so many places. Amazing. Because you know, communication from your answer, if I had to take one word, is intent. Right. Now we've complicated it so much because everything is at your fingertip. And when somebody takes the time to message or call you, if you don't respond immediately, it works on you in such a way that you think that you are at fault. Yes. Which means you've put your standard up so high and you're trying to reach that constantly. Right. Pushing yourself. Today I'm very happy to say that I take my time. I've slowed down so much because, like you said, it works on your anxiety level. Yes. Wow. Right? And I've taken my time. Many people ask me, and many people have also slowed down in responding to me. And I feel like I've done them good. Fantastic. And that takes a lot of courage. It does. Because you reach a point where you realize that it cannot be done. Absolutely. I don't have the mind space. Yes. And I want to be properly available to send you a proper message. Exactly. Or pick up the phone and speak to you properly. Exactly. Instead of me hurrying the message through to you just because I have to, you know, stick to a timeline. And how wonderful it is to have people to whom you don't have to explain even this. Yes. They give you this. Yes. I understand. Exactly. So, you know, it is an evolution, and I think the intent is the core of all of this. Yes. And for that reflection, we will speak about metacognition. You are in the public's eye more often than you know. You said you were an introvert for most part of it. I would call you an ambivort, the in-between. Yes. But sometimes we like to be to ourselves. We like to give. We also like to be to ourselves sometimes. Um, you know, when when the public um engagements go up and you're in the public eye more often, everyone wants a piece of you. Today I am sure, I'm very sure a client comes into your office, they are coming in for kupu. They want kupu in all the meetings, they want kupu to respond. Sure. Right? How do you take this forward and draw that boundary? Because boundary is something, and you go for any sort of uh conclave or anything, everybody wants to stand and talk to Kupu for a long time. They want to take things from you, they want to learn from you. Very good. I mean, it all comes from the right uh you know mind that they want to have access to you. But how do you draw a boundary and how do you do it within your office without you know alienating your team? Because it also means that they don't want to be uh you know speaking to your team regularly, right? True. They want you in the forefront still, and you know, and I I know that we did have a very brief conversation about it six, eight months back. I want you to talk about what you have done, how you work through this.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:57

So, once again, we'll we'll two, three important components of this that always was not part of me, but over time you make mistakes, you burn yourself, and then learn by reflecting why is this happening constantly, why I'm not comfortable, where's my energy going? So there are people who will, like you said, who will want that head to be there because meeting will flow in a certain way, and also it addresses their ego. In one way, titles come as interference to how to get work done. So, in every which way, though, we exhibit flat hierarchy, and most times we are lucky to have people say, Okay, you be there part first part of the meeting, 10 minutes, and even if you go as long as we have your team. As much as luck, there is this constant practice of having to do. So, even our founders, our senior leaders do the same thing after doing the keynote. They say, Now it is up to you to network with my employees because they know the groundwork of what is being I know a very high level of it. Yet at work, you have to constantly remind yourself of what you believe is what you practice. Sometimes you don't want to get carried away because somebody said a nice word about you, and then you get flattered or you get carried away, and you decide to sit for the entire two hours of meeting, only later to regret that I could have done 10 things and given the opportunity to my team to grow what kind of questions they are asking. So many things I've learned in hindsight that as much as exciting it is to be surrounded by people, I have to conserve my energy. You said it right a few minutes ago. Um, by learning what is the difference between kindness and niceness, and compassion and self-love go together, courage and kindness go together, they're best friends, it's inseparable twins. If we don't understand how this works together, self-love would only look very as shallow as taking a selfie and posting it on Instagram on the good days and calling it self-love. So, time and again, people come into our lives, they came into my life where they saw they spotted kindness, they saw there's a pressure of managers having to display empathy, and there's a lot of extraction that happened, and I learned the very painful way of how empathy is good, but that discernment has to be there. Who deserves that? I thought even doing that filter was not kindness. I thought if I were to choose my kindness, I'm not doing kindness, I'm not doing it right, but that's not it is because you I exhausted myself. I thought once I'm here in a space, I have to be as useful as I can be. But next 10 days, if I need rest, what is the point? And it disappears for everybody else. So you learn it the hard way, saying, and and what is delightful is that people don't mind. You think people will feel bad, but the minute I give them that one line answer instead of 10-minute explanation, which I used to give, they're very happy. They are very happy to, they are very understanding saying, Yes, we understand. Now you can't stand here and talk, but can we connect over an email? And then when I say can we do this like a month later, they'll be you'll be surprised they said yes because that time it you thought it was urgent. Yeah, you thought it now it had to be. Um the you means me. Yeah, me here. How I I learnt by burning myself almost out after a trip, business trip, or an important conversation, or going on stage and delivering a keynote, exhaustion is not a gift, yeah. So you reflect and you realize that you pick up courage because without self-love, you can't build anything at all. And self-love looks nasty for some people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:49

Naturally, I think we think that you know, loving ourselves or putting ourselves first.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:53

So be it, and people are fine with so be it. That's a surprise. So the more you practice, the more you become comfortable with that. And I believed in servant leadership. I made a mistake in that process. Like I lowered the bar for many of my team members, not in terms of quality of work, but in terms of it's okay, you don't have to show respect in so many ways. I don't need these formalities, so I lowered that where they don't have to come on a Monday thinking, oh no, I have Monday blues, oh no, when will Friday come? I thought by doing this, I will make them look forward to working, but that's not what it was. So you you see by mistakes, you lose people, you uh like I I allowed people to exploit me in so many ways, and only in hindsight, when you also put some strategy back, you look in that lens, you know you've not done the right thing, by which you're setting standard the right standard for others, also. So at work, um, I've learned a new way of how servant leadership will work. Yes, I can even serve tea without any ego if there's a good meeting. However, I will have to disappear after 10 minutes, allowing people to grow, to experience that firsthand without my presence. My presence can be intimidating or my presence can be supporting. Either which way you do it yourself, that way I constantly demonstrate I'm competitive, but I'm very content. You coming into it will not threaten my space in any way. I'll make sure that as a mentor I don't go outdated. So, how much ever you take from my plate, my plate is still full. So I'll operate out of that abundance, but I will be aware of my subtraction. Right. I thought keeping count of that was wrong. I've learned it the hard way. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:44

To be aware of what goes in and goes out is uh only comes with experience and learning to work with your your own emotions so much day in and day out. And I think 20 minutes of reflection every day, like you rightly said, I think it'll go a long way in because nobody is flawless. Yes. But have you understood your flaw? Yes. Have you worked on the flaw?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:12

Yeah, and the delight is you're not expected to be flawless. That was mind-blowing for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

You said wow, yeah, very, very, uh, very uh nice to see that you know people are accepting what we think is a flaw is a a way of uh functioning for.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:30

We go into their mind of what they think and we do unloop unnecessarily.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

I think it's a variety of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:38

You could say that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:39

Yeah, no, but some some of us have that. Sure. Yeah, more than more than others. But I mean, everybody has a different uh why not uh you know uh level of meta.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:49

Meters of that. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

So um tell me something, um Kopu, in in this transition, we also have a lot of disagreements, right? Somebody may feel something, something or the way something is done is right, the other may feel that no. I mean, it's uh it's always a pull-push factor, right? How does one learn to agree to disagree?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:13

This keeps coming up every day in different forms in science. When two people come together, there's always conflict, contradictions, it's bound to happen. Even the best of friends have to be different in certain ways. So there are times when you reflect and you uh surprisingly end up in the math equation, math and I are far apart, but then I realized we are talking about disagreement, right? Two components for different outcomes. I bring in my ego in this disagreement, as an end result, I will have conflicts sitting and filling the room. Correct. How much ever time you see, you will you will know have no light at the end of the tunnel. But conflicts accept dislike that there's going to be disagreements when there are ideas flowing in a room. And when you bring respect into that equation, then you have you know a very a very good way accepting these conflicts and see what solution. So now I have a very short answer. You bring disagreements plus ego, there's going to be more conflict. Correct. You bring disagreement with and respect, you're going to have some solution. You want solution, have clarity that solution. When we walk out of the door, what do we want?

unknown 1:16:29

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:29

We want to be friends, but so what uh works for me easiest way if there is a disagreement, we go to a room that has a whiteboard in it. Okay, and we write down the problems five, ten minutes before the meeting, occupy the room, write down all the problems. Whoever is on the opposite side gets to sit with me on the same side. There's nobody sitting across me in a table. We all look at the problem together. Now you tell me how disagreements will look like. So the problem is not going away, not going away, not going away. So you remove yourself from people. Who is saying is removed. What is being said is the only one you're looking at. So we all sit on the same. Literally, this has helped a lot of times to get at arrive at solutions faster. Let go of the ego saying maybe I was wrong. So why not we try this? You're not going to lose anything. Panti da paklame in a very responsible way. Yeah. What are we going to lose? We arrive at this faster. Find a whiteboard, write the problem. Don't make people sit across the table because you're arguing with the person then about the problem. Come to the same side. Come now, let's. This is work like magic. What a practical way to look at.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:40

I think formula. I should go patent this. Please do trademark this. I think I think you can teach this as a subject if you ever choose to teach. I mean, just think the psychology behind sitting with somebody you disagree with, sitting next to somebody with you know you disagree.

unknown 1:17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:59

You're not trying to be intimidating, sitting on the opposite side. People have asked me.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:03

I've I've had colleagues in my organization, we've had really rabid fights. And then we go take a break, have coffee. We say, which one are you faking? You're showing that you're fighting, or this one is fake. You really want to stab each other, but you're pretending you're having coffee. Neither. Because this we've argued about a problem immediately.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:23

Now we have gone back to a normal state. I think we should learn from our politicians. I think the parliament has just an example. I keep hearing again and again, and I ask someone. This is how it works. Yeah. Apparently they fight like cats and dogs inside, which we all see, right? Right. When they come to the parliament canteen, they're all friends. Food unites them. Food unites them. So uh you know, we speak about metacognition. Um you know, we spoke about it here and there, but let me ask you one question, Kupu. Today, if you are up there in the ceiling and watching this entire session, you know what are you thinking? What do you what are you looking at yourself? You know, from which angle are you looking at yourself today?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

So it's quite difficult to answer this because um reflection also means you're preparing, yeah, correct? You know how certain things are going to end. Some parts of it is in our control. The part where I really like the view from above when I'm looking, this the part I like is how free-flowing and honest this conversation is. What I I also think is not perhaps as very visible is that uh I do feel a lot of emotions and just one step away from allowing it to express itself. Like, say when I'm talking about grief, the obvious thing is to pull back my body shrinks. I felt this despite time has passed. Um, there are times when I'm not able to control my tears, irrespective of my surroundings. I've shocked people into sobbing and literally kneeling down on the ground. So from above, I see uh there is a control of emotions, there's a calculative approach to okay, if I go beyond this, that's not what we want as the outcome. You know, uh that control is there, that holding back a little, that much is enough is there. So the ease in which I'm sitting across you, I'm able to see it more clearly from above. Some of these questions have brought back memories, have still not really processed, handled in the way I've been escaping. Now I'm more aware of not putting it away for some more time. But this comfort that you have established, the kind of questions that you have really, it's a gift that you have sent my way. I can see that more clearly from above. Things that I never want to take for granted.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:11

Amazing. And I think uh, you know, that is what you know, understanding yourself really means that you do not just notice, but you allow space and time to work on these things. And uh I think for me, if you ask me today, what it feels like, you know, if I'm sitting above and I don't feel rushed. I feel like it's such a natural as if I've been waiting to talk about these things with somebody, you know, where I'm able to connect in a way that my my soul has been craving to connect. But at the same time, the the intention is quite clear that this is a path that all of us can take. Are we accessing it? What is stopping us? I think I feel like that is the reflection I'm going with today because I feel like there is so much restraint, even for me as a person, even though I'm so reflective, sometimes I feel like that restraint is still there. Am I fitting into certain rooms? Am I am I the right person to be here? Am I the right person to be there? These are things that are running, and I feel like the answers that you're giving me indirectly are also addressing those inner concerns. Very happy. And uh I'm I'm really elated that today. Tell me, uh Kupra, I have last two questions for you. One is, you know, um if you're in a room with 5,000 people sitting there and applauding you and you know, wanting you to come and speak, what is that inner critic telling you at that exact moment? I also will tell you why, because in the public eye, we feel that most people are always very confident to speak. Yes, they know what they're talking about, right? No questions asked, they know what they're talking about. Yes, but what is that inner critic telling you? Because this will humanize the people who are also on stage. Yes, yes. So, can you tell me what your inner critic tells you?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:13

Honest take at this ten years ago, my inner critic would tell me, Hey, you have not earned this. There are people who can be in your place who can do this better. Yeah, you could have prepared some more, you wasted some time, and all of that. Um, I do realize I have two brains. As I speak, there could be some process that thought that I can do. Today, when I stand in front of stage, the most prominent voice I hear. Sometimes you this critique is your friend now, and you have to listen because everybody else can bullshit you, saying you that was the best keynote ever, and you get but you listen to this voice because it's going to tell you exactly what you need to hear. So these days I hear it telling me that don't get carried away. It it's not the applause you're here for. Yeah, that that could be the most easiest thing you could gravitate towards. Can you be useful? Can you not forget the most important points that you wanted to tell the audience? And can you be comfortable if the response, the reaction didn't come the way you expect it to be? Can you still go home and do it a hundred more times with the same energy, looking at the eyes the same way you do? Can you then go on stage? So when I go, the critique sits and watches, and then we have a conversation again. I don't I don't call it the critique, but that's the voice I respect the most now. People can say anything, they can tell me what I want to hear. But that one friend that is there that you could trust on.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:50

So it tells me to be useful, it tells me don't get carried away. You're not here for the applause. And can you do it a hundred more times? Well, without having too much negotiating energy, without saying that familiarity of oh I've done this 50 times, I can handle have that little fear come to that new space and accept that it's a new space. Every time it's going to be a new space.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:15

Wow. It's uh it's I I don't know how to uh say this because when you the last part of what you said, Kopoo, that if it doesn't go as per your expectation, can you do this again? Yeah, can you do this again a hundred times?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:32

In a very weird, contradicting way, it takes away the pressure of performance. No, the act of presenting. No, it's not presenting, connecting via presenting, relatability via presenting.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:45

Absolutely, absolutely. And that takes me to the last question of this session. I wish I could have more time with you on the show today, but I feel so too. My last question to you is uh Kopu. If you had to write a warning note to my next guest, you have to tell me this.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:01

I don't understand why you want an answer to this question.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:05

I want an answer to this question because I know anybody, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:08

It can be anybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:08

Anybody who the next leader I have, like it has to be a warning. A warning, yeah, a warning for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:14

Do you want them to be able to do that? Don't think about it in a negative way.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:18

No, but uh a warning of sorts about the show, about the questions I asked.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:24

Yeah, that's a good, that's a good nudge. I got to warn them that this podcast is like no other. You can't just come and bluff and you know, uh, we get to see you. Like they say in Aftar, no, you you get to see, you get to see the other person because the host is someone who can hold the mirror, and then it's up to you. You like your vulnerability, do you like what you see? That's what she would do. So that's genuinely a warning. If I can write and note, oh, I'm gonna make you write on a piece of paper so you cannot be prepared for this. Oh my god. In a good way. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:02

I take that as a great compliment. Thank you. And um, I must say that you know, when as I started this um session today, I was quite uh I won't call it emotional, but there was a sense of nerves wanting me to ask you so many of these questions because I feel like we are all moving towards uh, you know, the inner world now more and more than ever. Even though there was a period of uh, you know, uh what do you call it, all these cosmetic things around us. I think most of us are starting to gravitate towards the inner world. Sure. And I feel like you are the perfect intersection of these two worlds who who's actually seeing it, who's actually reflecting on it. And I hope that someday you write a book on this. I'll touch many, many, many more people. And I manifest that for you today. This is the first place. Thank you. But we talk about that. Thank you. Thank you to that. Thank you. Thank you.