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Konnected Minds Podcast
Konnected Minds: Success, Wealth & Mindset. This show helps ambitious people crush limiting beliefs and build unstoppable confidence.
Created and Hosted by Derrick Abaitey
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Konnected Minds Podcast
Farming Business Expert: The Truth About Agribusiness in Ghana
"Poverty is a choice, my brother." These powerful words from Enyonam, widely known as The Ghanaian Farmer, cut through long-held misconceptions about agriculture in Ghana. While the average farmer in the country is 55 years old—approaching Ghana's life expectancy—farming remains one of our greatest untapped opportunities for wealth creation and poverty eradication.
The silence around agricultural prosperity is deafening. "The OGs who have been in the space have made wealth but they refuse to talk about it," Enyonam reveals, explaining why young people continue to view farming through an outdated lens. This powerful conversation dismantles these stereotypes, revealing how coconut farming on just 20 acres could generate over 1.3 million cedis annually, with farmers harvesting approximately 100 fruits per tree twice yearly.
But success requires more than just planting seeds. Market research before production is non-negotiable. "If you don't categorize your buyers, then you would sell to the market woman who comes to tell you this is how much I'm paying or I won't buy," Enyonam cautions. She details practical routes to market, from government institutions like Ghana Commodity Exchange to international buyers seeking export-quality produce, each requiring different approaches and certifications.
Financial support for agricultural entrepreneurs is increasingly accessible through organizations like Mastercard Foundation, offering loans at 5% interest with generous repayment terms. Young graduates shouldn't wait for government employment but should package their agricultural expertise as consulting services—especially valuable in a country where one extension officer serves nearly 1,000 farmers. Modern farming has evolved beyond rainfall dependency and wasteful practices; today's successful farmers use irrigation systems and transform every byproduct into value, from cassava peels for animal feed to fish-water for vegetable growing.
Whether you're considering agriculture as an investment or career path, this episode reveals the practical steps to success while avoiding common scams and pitfalls. Join our community of forward-thinking entrepreneurs at our upcoming event on August 29th at the British Council. Subscribe now and become part of a movement transforming how we think about agriculture in Ghana and beyond.
Watch the video episode of this on YouTube - https://linktr.ee/konnectedminds
There is a lot of market chains when it comes to selling agriculture produce. That's one and others. We have coins for every produce. So if even you want to sell with a market coin, go there depending on what you're producing, and ask Mame, I want to be selling to the women, how do I go about it?
Speaker 2:How do these international establishments support these businesses? What's usually the process?
Speaker 1:so usually, if you don't categorize, if you don't identify, then my brother, you would sell.
Speaker 2:I want to prepare it for export. How do I go about?
Speaker 1:it. So in Ghana there is a line of people to Target and sell to if you want to become a farmer. The OGs who have been in this space have made wealth, but they refuse to talk about it.
Speaker 2:So you all come to Connected Minds podcast. Wow, I had to do a lot of work in the studio to get this working and thank you so much for supporting us and being part of the family, the Connected Minds family. Look, on the 29th of August we have an event coming up at the British Council. So if you're under the sound of this voice and you have yourself a business or you're thinking of becoming a business person, you just don't know what to do, you need to be at the British Council on the 29th. The details are going to be in the description and today's conversation. We're keeping it very simple. It's with the Ghanaian farmer. That's what everyone calls her.
Speaker 2:But, her actual name is beautiful name she has, enyonam is beautiful name she has and your name is beautiful name she has. But we all call it a Ghanaian farmer because you know, we all know her as a Ghanaian farmer. She's had several businesses. I've spoken to a lot of entrepreneurs who have businesses in the agri. You know sector but today's one is different because she speaks with people in the agri business. She has a business herself but because of how much experience she has with people who are in the agri business, it is so important you stick around and listen to what you think the top businesses in agri are where you can put your money. If you're in the diaspora thinking of coming to put money in Ghana, this conversation you must sit down and listen to the Ghanaian farmer, spit it all out how it should be. You're welcome to Connected Minds podcast, my sister.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, derek. I'm very happy to be part of this platform and, of course, to connect with your viewers. I have followed you closely and people have been speaking. You're talking. I'm like, okay, who is this new dude? So I have got to check out a few of your content and it's been very, very impactful, very interesting conversation. I mean, on a normal day people don't like to watch stuff like this, but when I see the numbers, numbers it means you're doing something right. So thanks for having me you're absolutely welcome.
Speaker 2:Um, you saw me running around trying to make this conversation happen and I've spent not less than seven hours researching about you, speaking to people about you, so I hope everything, everything they told me I get to learn it all today. My first question to you is why do you do what you do?
Speaker 1:Because I wanted to be different. I didn't want to follow what everybody's doing Journalists in Ghana, I don't know about elsewhere. After graduating national service, they are either keen on becoming hosts of political shows, sport or entertainment, and so, as a journalist after my diploma, I asked myself do you also want to do the same thing? How can you be different from the rest? What are the industries that do so much, contribute so much to our economy and yet the least talked about? And, of course, how do I make my father proud who is a part of that industry? And I'm referring to agricultural farmers. And so I cover a niche for myself and I'm proud I made that decision.
Speaker 2:If you were to sum up everything you do, what would you say? You do.
Speaker 1:I'm reciting mind and making impact. Okay.
Speaker 2:In the agri sector Exactly. My viewers will not understand. Are you a farmer yourself?
Speaker 1:I am. I just started two years ago.
Speaker 2:Right, you've been in this industry for.
Speaker 1:Five years Five years.
Speaker 2:I know that you had some other ventures ongoing. Why did you just start two years ago that you had some other ventures ongoing?
Speaker 1:Why did it just start two years ago. So before you move into a space, you need to take time and learn from all those who are ahead of you. Pick the mistakes they made, polish them up. So even if you would repeat some of these mistakes, it will not be as much as they did so, for if you would repeat some of these mistakes, it will not be as much as they did so. For my first three years it was leaning grounds, observing, because what I want to do, farming, is a jealous venture. It needs your attention, it needs your commitment, it needs your focus and dedication to get the result. You can't gamble with agri. We don't do it in agri. So you either have your two foot in there or don't even start at all. So the first three years I was listening. Poultry farmers are talked to them, goats, cow, pigry, fish farmers, crop farmers have gone through all the phases and so now I think I'm well grounded and can chart the paths I want to Amazing.
Speaker 2:Deganean farmer when I was growing, amazing, the Ghanaian farmer when I was growing up, farming was almost a punishment for me. That's how I felt hey, let's go to the farm. I didn't really want to go to the farm. Sometimes you cry, you wean, but then you still have to go. Why has farming become such a big topic in Africa?
Speaker 1:in recent times. It's simply because, one, we are not discovering the benefits that farms comes with and, two, we've not realized that it is one of the biggest job creators, industries or sectors. And I say, three, it is one of the sectors that will eradicate poverty. How.
Speaker 1:Because in farming nothing goes waste. Nothing Gone were the days when cassava farmers would throw their pail away. Okay, talk to me about it, but today cassava pails are added to other ingredients to produce feed for your pigry. Today, coconuts, after drinking, the coconut husk is no more damped. There are multiple things that can be produced out of, like the coconut fiber, the coconut peat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can make briquet out of it A lot.
Speaker 1:So tell me, is there a weight in anything agri, the water that is used around fishes, so tilapia, catfish, people until today or recently would just change over the water and then dispose the water, but today that water around your fish in the tank you can add just a bit of implements and that can grow you very healthy, quality vegetables.
Speaker 2:I actually saw from a farmer in the Fota region. He does tilapia farm, you know him. I forgot the name.
Speaker 1:Flo Sel.
Speaker 2:That's it, and when I went to his farm, I loved it. It's so technical and it looked as if I was in the lab, but what was beautiful about it was that the water that was coming out of the tilapia he was using that to grow corn at the time. Good, and the leaves of the corn were so green.
Speaker 2:Yes, and he was explaining it to me at the time, yes, I said wow, so nothing goes waste in this present day, in our Greek Okay, I still want to take you back to why you decided it's only two years, like only two years ago is the time you were saying that, okay, I want to go into farming myself. I understand you initially had a venture. What happened?
Speaker 1:So I lost my job in 2017 at Radio Gold, one of the biggest and oldest media broadcasting stations Not just me, but a group of workers because the station was shut down political issues and so the owners said, hey, you guys all have to go home. And that's when reality set in, and so I began to reflect and ask myself questions what next? What you have learned from radio good? What can you make out of that? Are you still going to take your CV and go and be walking around other media houses looking for employment? Or you want to become your pay? You know your own employer, and so that's when the concept of becoming a creator or a producer was bettered.
Speaker 1:And then again, as a young business person, before you invest into something, you need to take your time and cross all the T's and dot the I's, and so I realized that there were a lot of shows happening. When it comes to business shows as well, it was all about the giant. You know the big guys. They are the ones that TV stations want to talk about or interview. So I then switched a bit and then began producing my own television program called Business Trends.
Speaker 1:So, that was my first business I established in 2017. So I had to just call the crew, pay them, book the resource persons these young startups go on the internet, look who is doing something new, who is doing something amazing. Look for them, interview them and put it on TV. So that was my business. So I paid myself, I paid my team and I did that for four years. I got some awards.
Speaker 1:I became a go-to person around 2017, 2020, when we're talking about young people who are pushing business, we're talking about entrepreneurship. If you want a young person to speak on a platform about business, call the NUNAM. I mean that time. Business Trends. So that was my first business. And then you know I need to add on. So around 2020, in COVID, I then again was on my bed reflecting okay, business trends has gained prominence. I've made an impact. What next? Do we keep doing business trends or we add on something I see. So the Ghanaian farmer became an add-on. But you see, if you're building a brand, derek, you don't want to confuse your followers. Talk to me.
Speaker 1:For that period of three years, I established myself as a corporate entrepreneur that can be referred to and called on when there are issues pertaining business or SME. Now here you are. You said you want to talk about agri. So where do we put you? Are you still an SME person or you're an agri person? So for me it wasn't about quitting business trends, but it was about looking for a new face for business trends. And then moving on to the Ghanaian farmer. But you know the story of looking for given job or looking for people to fill in a space that you think is available For most of the young people in Ghana. Even though I'm not that old, they think about how much are you paying me first, rather than what value I'm bringing to the brand. You don't call your paycheck when I don't see the value you're bringing to my brand. So for me, if I call you for a job, you can mention what you want, but I still will insist let's work.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes you know we talk about value, value, value, right. But a beautiful question for you to answer before we move on to this. What did you mean by that value?
Speaker 1:I called you to be a host of my program. You might have come for audition and everything, but you need to sit on that seat. You would have hosted a couple of episodes. The feedback from my audience would tell me if I made the right choice or not.
Speaker 2:What do I have to do for you to see the value in me? What do I have to do for you to see it?
Speaker 1:So for a host, I do multiple things. Okay, but maybe others might not be able to do. I can script my program. I can book my resource person. I do not at times, or most of the time, even set questions. I mean write questions before asking. I remember I had clearly a lecturer saying that if you will be a good interviewer, it's not about the questions you write, it's about paying attention when your guest is speaking. So you pick your follow-up question from what they say. So, derek, if I interview you to host Business Trends and you tell me, enyo, I want you to pay me 5,000 per episode, no problem. But before I pay that money, you must host the show Right. I need to get feedback from my audience.
Speaker 2:The young people are saying pay me. Well, I want to read something for you. Right Something very interesting.
Speaker 2:The life expectancy of Ghana at the moment is between 55 to 60 years, but the average farmer is 55 years. You see what is happening here. This was a research that was done by one doctor, a researcher at the University of Environment and Sustainable Development in Ghana, and when I read it I said my God. That means that if the average farmer is 55 years, that means that still, as much as there's a lot of noise about young people getting into farming, it's actually not having the impact yet, because we still have, and this research was done recently I actually read it in March so that means that 55, life expectancy 60 or even 70, that means a lot of the farmers are getting too old. What have you been doing, or what can you do, to tell more young people to get into farming?
Speaker 1:So the inspiration that made me go into agri are a few. One is the fact that even the Ministry of Food and Agriculture has not got a gallery of educational materials for novice who want to go into the space to feed on. Okay, that is number one. The gap in education about agriculture is lacking. Number two is the fact that the OGs who have been in the space have made wealth but they refuse to talk about it. Why, you know?
Speaker 1:I was thinking as Africans, if they know, say Okwui Eni, a farmer, I have this story building, I drive these Benz, I travel when I want to. They say, ah, so that's why you don't want to pay taxes or this or that or that. For a very long time. Farmers don't want to disclose their wealth. So the young person out there only see you wearing tattered clothes and that's what informed me to wear my brand. That agri is not all about wearing tattered clothes. You can wear decent clothes and still go in the bush and farm. So one the lack of we disclosing or farmers disclosing how much wealth or asset I've acquired from agri is number one. That is why the young people are not going. Number two number three is part of lack of infrastructure and market access. In this day and age, you still go to the village and you see people still using the cutlass and the hoe. I was here in Hachu that's an urban area, they do vegetables and I still saw the young people using. You know, I was asking the alaji alaji, how do you plow the land? And he said, oh, this young man is the one, the guy, he alone, he used a hoe to prepare the land for all the farmers. They pay him his money. Why? Why, when, in this current dispensation, we have simple tools that a farmer can just, you know, hold it, stand on it and they plow the land. So, lack of infrastructure and lack of market assets.
Speaker 1:And so, for me, if you tell me I want to go into poultry, I tell you, look for who you want to sell your eggs to. You see, the notion of the notion of we eat eggs every day, or the notion of we eat vegetables every day, or the notion of people love pig in Ghana, is one of the reasons people lose money. There is a lot of market change when it comes to selling agricultural produce. So, from the government institutions who you might supply because they've given you contracts, feed you know Ghana. What about feeding the school feeding thing? You could get a contract from there. That's one. Private institutions like the big malls can be one of the people you want to sell to the market. Women are others. The corporate woman who doesn. You want to sell to the market. Women are others. The corporate woman who doesn't want to go to market but wants someone to shop for them weekends. So there is a line of people to target and sell to. If you want to become a farmer, Take me through that.
Speaker 2:You just said I want to get into farming, but I need to find a person who would.
Speaker 1:Your market niche matters.
Speaker 2:So why is it very important If you don't? But I need to find a person who would your market needs, yes, yes. So why is it very important?
Speaker 1:If you don't, you have yourself to be blamed. Then post-harvest loss will be your friend. Okay, you would have to Mentos, and it will just be seated there. And these are perishables, by the way. In three days, one week, max two weeks, that is, if you have an air-conditioned place and they are there two weeks afterwards, it will start losing its freshness, quality, and then that's where you either sell it cheap and lose the money you even used in producing, not to talk about profit. So, again, I said, you either go to government and apply to be someone who supplies the food.
Speaker 2:How do you do that? What's the process?
Speaker 1:So you have to go to Bafa Stock. Okay, there is an institution called Bafa Stock. They are in charge of buying excess food, storing in warehouses and distributing to schools. So you can either go there or even go to Ghana Commodity Exchange. They also buy certain kinds of agricultural produce. So I think they buy maize, they buy rice, they buy beans, they buy sorghum, millets. Walk to Ghana Commodity Exchange and speak to them. I want to produce sorghum or millets. How do I sell to you? Because they also have warehouses where they stock and sell to other institutions. So walk to them and make their inquiries. Don't go to their hotels. Some of them have farms, some don't. But if you produce grade A sort of produce, they will buy from you. Ask the procurement manager I want to be your supplier. How do you buy? What are the intervals or the duration of buying? How do you pay me? Is it cash on delivery or check, or there is a time that you take to pay? Go there or go to the supermarket. Ask them what type of vegetables do you buy?
Speaker 2:Who am I speaking to when I go to the supermarket?
Speaker 1:Go to the procurement manager, the marketing manager. How do I package it? What is the branding? They tell you their specifications. Don't assume in a Greek, don't gamble. And so you package to meet the expectation of the buyer. They become your buyer. Or the corporate women who are so tired and can't go to the market on weekends. Figure them out. That is why you have WhatsApp status. You are on Facebook, you are on Twitter, you are on Instagram. Begin to post. I are on Facebook, you are on Twitter, you are on Instagram. Begin to post. I'm selling this. If you want to buy, I can even do delivery. Then you get to find your niche that you have to sell to. If you don't categorize, if you don't identify, then, my brother, you would sell to the market woman who comes to tell you this is how much I'm paying or I won't buy.
Speaker 2:Let me stop you here for a minute. If you've been watching this show, I want you to subscribe and become part of the family. We are on a journey of changing the lives of people on this channel and we appreciate you for being here, but if you haven't become part of the family, connect with us. Hit the subscribe button and let's carry on the conversation. All right, take me through the problems that happened there the market woman and the produce Because I've heard people saying that sometimes they make even more money than the people producing themselves.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:So the market woman, she's also there for business. She's there for profit. You are not his friend or her friend For her. She's waiting patiently to buy when your produce are ready. It will interest you to know that in the markets we have queens for every produce. We have the market queen for tomatoes, market queen for plantain, market queen for okra, market queen for yam cassava. So if even you want to sell with a market queen, or want to sell with Nagobulushi or Kaneshi or Temastasi, go there, depending on what you're producing, and ask I want the market queen of so-and-so vegetable. They will direct you, Sit with the woman and ask mommy, I want to be selling to the women, how do I go about it? She tells you the protocol to follow and so when your harvest is ready, they tell the truck driver to go and buy and bring it to the market. You would even get to know if they pay cash or you have to supply them and they pay in some few days later If you don't follow this protocol.
Speaker 1:I tell you one of my farmers who came from the UK, Kwame. He said one of these days I harvested my plantain and I drove all the way to Agobulusi to go and sell. They told him Abrahan, you won't sell your plantain here Because you don't have our permission to sell. And so he has to go and see the market queen. And even that the woman said this price you're mentioning, I won't buy. I will give you this price. You either agree or you drive back your planting to your farm. So the thing is that if you don't identify all these people that I mentioned, this cycle of people, and know who you want to sell to, then that's where you wait. It's time or two weeks to your harvest. You're not running around. Oh, I have this, I'm selling. I have ginger, I'm selling. Do you want to buy? If the person see the desperate in your eyes, he will now tell you listen, I'll buy, I'm even doing a venture. Yes, I may pay you. It's not as if I want, but because I don't want you to lose money. That's how much I'll buy it Given. You either take it or you leave it.
Speaker 1:These are the errors that new entrants to our Greek make and they lose money. Catfish, for instance when it's matured and you don't sell, it will be eaten. It is not a pond, it will be eaten. And you see, the worst part is when you've not even managed a plan B to add value, which is smoking it. When you're smart and you have a catfish or a tilapia farm, what you do as a plan B is to have an oven, being in the traditional oven or the modern type of oven, and so when the time is getting closer and the buyers are not coming on the price you're getting for a kilo, it's no good Smoke it, and the lifespan of a smoke fish gives you room to sell at the price you want. If you don't have a plan B then, my brother, your money will go waste.
Speaker 2:We've spoken about how to take the produce to the market in. Ghana. How about now? I want to prepare it for export. Who do I see? How do I go about it?
Speaker 1:So in Ghana we have associations in the farming space. We have association for coconut cassava. We have association for vegetables Soava, we have association for vegetables. So there is this people, you call them fruit and vegetable farmers association, vpec. Then we have the Fage, which is Federation for Export Association or something, and then we have the Ghana Export Promotion Authority, gepa the Ghana Export Promotion Authority, gepa. So now, depending on where you find yourself, if you are within the rice value chain, there are associations for rice. You say it's about working Derek, so look for the vegetable VPEG guys. Go to their office and register.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:That's step number one. Number two is go to GEPA and register to be a member. Now, gepa has this annual programs. They organize trips, agri-expos, agri-fairs to the European countries. So when you attend some of those trips there, you meet people who are looking for things to buy from Africa. They will tell you this is what I want Every month. I want a 40-feeter or a 20-feeter container. This is the quality I want and these are the certifications you need to have before you can send it. So there was this client in the UK who wanted tiger nuts from Ghana.
Speaker 1:They use it for cosmetics and they reach out to us because of what we do, so he wanted a sample. I got a sample from Kwewu, because they do a lot of tiger nuts there. I had to go to PPRSD it's one of the agencies that gives certificates and licenses so they took a photosanitary picture and gave me a certificate as to the quality of the produce before DHL would accept.
Speaker 1:Take it to the person. So there is a lot of inquiry to be made. So there is a lot of enquiries to be made. Your money alone is not enough to make you successful in agri. Your knowledge belonging to associations, asking the right questions, are what will make you successful in this space.
Speaker 2:The same researcher, dr Asare Nyama. I think what he was trying to do with this research is to find out whether young people are interested in farming or not, because he started from okay, life expectancy the age of farmers in the country and then he realized that actually 69.3% of the young people they spoke with were interested in farming. But my question is if 69.3% young people are interested, which is a huge number because that means that it's going to reduce the average age. What support do they need to actually get into farming?
Speaker 1:Great. That's the big question. So for a young person, most of them either have family lands that they've spoken to family heads they say, oh, you can use it. But beyond having access to land comes a lot of things like plowing of the land. Presently I have one where I have 6.3 acres. I'm told per the agri-officer there that plowing one acre is 600 cedars.
Speaker 1:So plowing, and you don't plow just one, depending on what you're producing, you might have to plow twice and even harrow to give the land a smooth surface. You need to do your production and so plowing alone, even if it's just one acre, it might cost you like some $2,000 already, depending on where you find yourself, to do your plow. Then the seed you need to buy seed, Then you need to buy. If you're doing organic, then you need to buy seed, then you need to buy. If you're doing organic, then you have to go and look for the manuals, but if you're doing conventional, then you need to buy fertilizers. Of course, even if it's one acre, you still need one person or two to help you, derek. So labor is there. And so you see, beyond having access to land, Derek, so labor is there, and so you see, beyond having access to land comes capital to start the production, and that is where the challenge lies, until the intervention of a lot of some international organizations like Mastercard Foundation, oh my.
Speaker 2:God, you just took it out of my head Because I've spoken to Fred from Farming in Africa and we spoke extensively about. Mastercard.
Speaker 1:Foundation.
Speaker 2:I didn't want this to be about it, but all I wanted to understand was that a young person because truth is, doctors' research also brought it all the way down to the fact that 64% of these young people he spoke with had access to land. They just didn't know what to do yes, so they have access to the land, but what support system is available, even from international, to allow them to be able to start farming?
Speaker 1:So until the intervention of some of these organizations, a lot of young people were struggling because the commercial banks would not give you a loan and even if they want to give you, their interest rate alone would discourage you from accepting the loan. And it's not a good idea for a startup to just go for a loan. At least you should start your first three years, going into your five years. You would have understand your cash flow, you would have understand your profit. Then you can be confident enough to say, okay, if you give me $20,000 or $50,000 every month, I can pay this amount comfortably without me struggling. So, beyond the land, we need money to do the farming. We need simple introduction of mechanization equipment to do our farming. If I have farm land and I don't have water, derek, how do I produce? Do you know how much it's costing to drill borehole? Now I guess one way I want to do my borehole. Last time I checked with a borehole company, the lady told me 25,000 to do one borehole, and my land is 6.3. So, according to my agronomist, madam, we need two boreholes, not one. Wow, thank you. So can a startup person whose family said okay, we are giving you one acre or we are giving you two acres. You can use it. Can they drill a borehole?
Speaker 1:You see, if you want to make farming profitable, rainfall farming is not farming. Talk to me, it's child's play, rainfall farming. You're waiting for the rains to come and then it will come today, tomorrow, it's not coming. You've planted your things. They are waiting for my brother. Rainfall farming is not commercial farming. Yes, our parents might have used it over the years, but tell me what? How far have they gone with that? All the big farms you see are doing irrigation farming. And how can I start a person? Yesterday at the conference I saw irrigation set up and I was asking the man how much is it? He was mentioning some costs. So I just laughed and I'm like how can a startup afford this cost?
Speaker 2:How do these international establishments without us getting details? Into names supports these businesses. What's usually the process?
Speaker 1:So usually they ask for a few basic requirements, and so for me, in my line of work, I always advocate for that. Derek, even before you have the land, go and register the farm Derek's farm or Derry's and Co farms. Register the farm Whatever money you get whilst Co Farms. Register the farm Whatever money you get whilst maybe you're doing a side job or something. Be putting the money in that account. Be building the account. So first of all, you need to register the business. Okay, number two you should have an account in the name of the farm.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Number three there should be some record. Record keeping means that at least oh Derek rented one acre and on the one acre he rented he spent this amount for-.
Speaker 2:Right on an Excel sheet. Thank you, Okay, cool.
Speaker 1:So a simple record to show how the farm is faring. They are not looking so much on the money there, but they are looking at. Okay, you're keeping some record Digitally present Because they make their checks. If indeed you're farming, indeed you have a business, let's go and check them out, let's see what he's doing. When I was filling some grant form, I feel like I had to add my digital media platforms because they ask Then some might even go the extra mile to go and check if indeed there exists a fan. So when you go through all these phases, they look at what you're doing and then they give you the support at a very single figure digits rate.
Speaker 2:What are we looking at? What sort of numbers? 5% 5% against the dollar or against the CDI.
Speaker 1:Against the CDIs. They don't do dollars.
Speaker 2:Right, so the money most people are getting is in dollars but then?
Speaker 1:but it's converted by the bank into cities for you right, and then you still pay against the city exactly over what period of time?
Speaker 1:so you are allowed to pay within three to five years. If you check or mark all those boxes right, then you stand a higher chances. So there are the loan part, then there is a grant part. Okay, the grant part is where you have a brilliant idea, you write a very good proposal and you pitch and then you make money. Currently I'm doing an influencer work for Ayute Africa and there are two Ghanaian young people who are competing in that. It's happening in Kampala. It's free money.
Speaker 2:Usually, how much is that free money?
Speaker 1:So usually people get as much as $50,000, $100,000. So if your idea is really good, you've registered. But but then again you have to do some registration. They should see some you know, genuineness and real materials available to show that, okay, the guy is doing something. So if he pitches and we trust this idea, we can put some money in there. So what I always say to young people is that there are monies flying around now in the agri sector, but it depends on how well you're positioned to assess it. If you're not well positioned, then the monies will be flying and you won't get any.
Speaker 2:I want to start a farm. I just don't know what to do. You've spoken to so many entrepreneurs in the agri business Top five businesses in agri in Africa. Right now that is making money. Where would you start from?
Speaker 1:I'll do coconut. Okay, I'll do oil palm.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I'll do vegetables, I'll do poultry, I'll do pig, I'll do poetry, I'll do pigry, okay.
Speaker 2:Why coconut? Because there is no waste, okay. And then we go all the way to the bottom. Exactly why pigry?
Speaker 1:because pigry gives me multiple births, it takes the shortest time to expand my farm if you had a pig farm, how would you sell the produce from the farm?
Speaker 1:I would add value so when you have a pig farm, what you can do is create a small space like an abattoir or a clean place where you can slaughter, slaughter your pig, cut it into pieces Packages, have a deep freezer. You store it in there, brand it well and sell to pig lovers Just the way people walk to Kosto to go and buy freeze chicken. Sell your pigry like that.
Speaker 2:I've heard a lot of people saying that we have a pig farm. They are struggling with selling.
Speaker 1:It is because they are all relying on their pig joint in Accra, but the pig joint too nowadays. Some of the women have gone as far as now owning their farms. So they now go to their own farms and bring their pigs Until there's shortage. Then they call on external farmers to supply. So if your only way to sell your pig is to the pig joints in town, then your pigs will grow and they'll be eating and pigs can eat. So why don't you create something new? Nobody's doing even the joint itself. You can have one two years in a very nice way, sometimes right me.
Speaker 2:When I think about farming, I really think about because I love big money. You know, I love big money. So this thing you are telling me, it sounds great. It sounds fantastic. But what I really want to understand is how much money can I make from coconut farm? At what scale?
Speaker 1:So coconut.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Even with one acre of coconut. So you're going to stay around for the next three years before you start fruiting.
Speaker 2:How many years?
Speaker 1:Depending on the variety. So between two and a half three years it is fruiting On just one coconut. Again, depending on the variety you have, you can harvest about 75 to 100 fruits from just one coconut.
Speaker 2:Let's say 100.
Speaker 1:And if at the farm gates you are selling one coconut so you grade it. When a farmer comes you grade so they grade. The biggest ones are graded on the side, the medium ones are on the side and then the smallest are on the other side. The least price for one coconut in the farm gate now is between four city, 50 pesos or five cities.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'll take four city 50 pesos and I'm going gonna multiply the 100 fruits, because 100 fruits is on an acre so I'm gonna say I'm doing a 20 acre farm right, so that means we have 2 000 fruits, and then we're gonna multiply that by so one acre land takes about 75 trees of coconut okay but on one single plant of coconut is where you are likely to harvest about 100 fruits from.
Speaker 1:In a year.
Speaker 2:So when you?
Speaker 1:start fruiting. So from the start, the first harvest, you might get 50 fruit or 70. But when it goes to the cycle cycle of harvesting- you will get more Right.
Speaker 2:So an acre would take 75. 75 trees, 75 trees. So that means that a 20 acres would have 1,500. Exactly, and each tree would give us 100. Exactly Right, so that gives us 150,000.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, and each one is being sold at.
Speaker 1:Four CD four CD 50 persuades Four.
Speaker 2:CD 50 pesos, 4 CD 50 pesos. So that's 675,000 for a 20 acre coconut farm. The question is how how often would I get my 100 fruits?
Speaker 1:So in a year you can harvest your coconut farm twice Twice.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, so I can multiply this money times two Exactly In a year.
Speaker 1:Okay, but listen again. In farming it's garbage in, garbage out. The fact that I tell you your coconut tree can give you the least fruit of 50, the major fruit of 100, it depends on how well you're taking care of your plant. It could be low.
Speaker 2:So I'm not taking your word for it. Thank you, but I'm just using this as um, as a guide, to understand what is possible. Based on that, my calculation has been 1.1.3 million garnishes on a 20 acre coconut farm fantastic. However, we can take it out and say, okay, things didn't go as well, so we made 900 000. Right? Um, we still have expenses, but I'm sure with coconut it's not gonna be much not much for one acre coconut, for maybe just one person plus yourself.
Speaker 1:you can take care of it, and the beauty is, when a coconut plant is around one year thereabout, you can be doing vegetables in between, because the trees are not closer. There's a distance between this tree to that tree, so you can do your small habaneros, your small tomatoes, and be harvesting, and that is what you use to run the day-to-day management of the farm whilst you're waiting to begin harvesting.
Speaker 2:For me again. I love big money. I think that's fantastic, that 20-acre farm that's going to give me 1.3,. I'll probably end up because I'm trying to go for about maybe 10 million a year. I'll probably have to multiply that many times to get the money, but that gives me confidence that, apart from the fact that we can just get the fruits out of it, we can get other things out of it.
Speaker 2:So that's the beauty of the whole thing. The next thing I wanted to talk to you about is scams in the industry. Yeah, Scams in the industry huge. You've personally been involved in one, Somebody else did, and you know. Sometimes these things can have issues with the entire industry and dental reputation is here and there. How are you managing it? Oh.
Speaker 1:So you've got to be careful. You can never be careful, but then again you have to be careful. You can never be careful, but then again you have to be careful, especially when the figures look too good, especially when the presentation looks so smooth no hitches. Here and there you need to be careful and double-check, and double check and double check. For instance, because of the work I do, most of the diasporan brothers would reach out Enyonam, I want land to buy. Or Enyonam, I have this amount of money. Is there any farmer you can recommend for me to invest my money and I tell them calm down.
Speaker 1:Request for basic things like let me see your farm registration, let me see the account in the name of the farm. Can I have records of how much you use in producing? How much revenue comes in the payment of staff? Can you give me some calculation as to when I give you my money? If it's vegetables, after four months, how much do I get back?
Speaker 1:If possible, can you get a lawyer to sign a document between the two of you, because when the person is binded by that, it creates a little bit of fear, even though it might not be a guarantee. But you see, if you don't do the double checking, then you are availing yourself to be robbed. That's true. I get people who say I know I wanted to buy a land and someone said send me money, let me buy the land for you. And some of them trust so much that they end up sending the money, only for them to arrive in Ghana. You call the number. It's switched off. The house number they give you you go there. There is nobody existing, like that. What else can you do?
Speaker 2:Let me stop you here for a minute. If you've been watching this show, I want you to subscribe and become part of the family. We are on a journey of changing the lives of people on this channel and we appreciate you for being here, but if you haven't become part of the family, connect with us, hit the subscribe button and let's carry on the conversation.
Speaker 1:And you know you have a huge following.
Speaker 2:People trust your work and the process that you've taken a lot of young people through to start their own farms. In the case that happened, what really happened, without taking us through the entire full story what happened with the other dude?
Speaker 1:so it's not easy. There was this lady who sent money down for what do you call it? Land to be bought for farming. But she got here and there was no land. She and her husband, they got to Ghana. They went to, where they showed them pictures and everything, only for the community to say, hey, this land belongs to a certain old man and the man hasn't told us he's selling the land. So they track the man's name and all that and they found the man. The man said I'm not selling my land, even myself. I remember me and some other five partners there's one in the US, one in Germany, one in UK and then some in Ghana. We put money together. We wanted to do 45 acres of sweet potatoes. That was my first try on farming and the mistakes we made were one we should have drilled a borehole. But how do you drill a borehole on a rented land, derek?
Speaker 2:Actually, that's quite funny.
Speaker 1:Yes, because what do you do to the borehole? Will you put sand inside? So we didn't want to take that risk. Yeah, so we didn't drill a boho. We didn't have an agronomist to ourself. We relied on the technical support by another Ghanaian big giants who is a farmer, who is an exporter, who said i'll'll offtake, I'll buy the potatoes. So I'm going to render service like I'll give you vines, I'll give you technical support. So we paid all our money to him with high hopes. We've done our figures. It's looking good.
Speaker 1:Look, we went through the plow, the vines were delivered, we planted. But beyond planting, there comes the technicalities where you need a hands-on agronomist to be there. He sees this. He says, hey, do that. You call the farmer, tells you hey, I'm busy on my farm. I'm in the middle of a meeting, my team will attend to you, and there's no team coming. Oh, my brother, I even had an middle of a meeting. My team will attend to you, and there's no team coming. Oh, my brother.
Speaker 1:I even had an accident with my car. Just thinking me of all people. You know how women we are careful driving. I was behind my car before I realized I hit inside someone's car and the guy was like what's wrong with you, didn't you see? I said I'm sorry. The only thing that saved me was the fact that I had records to show these partners. When we are plowing, I take videos. When delivery of vines are made, I show invoices. When we buy knapsack sprayers, drums for mixing of fertilizers, I take pictures, videos, when any payment. I make sure I drop the evidences. That's the only thing that saved my name and my integrity.
Speaker 2:If not and I've been- how much money did the entire team invest in that business In dollar terms?
Speaker 1:Every, I think the list between five to ten thousand dollars and we have our five. So I did five Myself. The other lady did ten. Another guy in the US did ten, did $10,000. The guy in Germany did $9,000. The UK guy did $5,000.
Speaker 2:What $5,000?
Speaker 1:No five acres Right right, right so the amount when you're looking at that time is around between $5,000 to $10,000.
Speaker 2:Per plot. Per the acres Right so each acre, you spent about $10,000 no, no.
Speaker 1:So the 5 acres cost you about $5,000, right, and then the 10 acres will go more wow, yes, and all that money was lost of course we lost. What happened was that we put our calculations on the export of the produce, because when you harvest and the harvest, so per the calculation, the big man gave us your export quality if it's between 50% to 70% of the harvest. Abu mama apeke. I see.
Speaker 1:And then 30% if it's not so good. So, because of the export, they look at things like the size, the skin of the produce and a few pertinent things. But here's the case that we were. That's why I said rainfall farming cannot be the order of the day.
Speaker 1:So, we planted, the rains we're not coming. When we are supposed to apply fertilizer, there is no rain. The kind of fertilizer you use, it has to rain enough. The ground needs to be wet. So when you apply your urea and whatever it soaks into the soil that the plant uses, it was not coming. Then again, when an agronomist needs to come on time, he's busy on another farm or he's busy somewhere. So you wait and the time is going by. The time we're supposed to harvest, it takes three months to harvest potatoes. We took extra one month to harvest, so a lot of things went wrong. So we lost big money.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no, well over 100,000.
Speaker 1:We lost big money and that's why I said if you're going into famine, take your time.
Speaker 2:Do you think you should have started on? Maybe an?
Speaker 1:acre to understand the system and then do incrementally. So I stopped trusting. Because I invested that much, because of the trust I had for this big man.
Speaker 2:Let's not call him big man. I guess he's not a big man if he can't keep it wet.
Speaker 1:Because of the trust I had, and so I should. Even if it was just my five acres that went down the drain, it would have been okay, but others are involved.
Speaker 2:Did you put those people involved? Did you put them together?
Speaker 1:Because I announced I have an influence and so I said hey guys, I'm at this place, I'm going to do farming. If you want to join me, jump on it. And they jumped on it. Yeah. But it didn't go well.
Speaker 2:Wow yeah. But it didn't go well, wow, yes, and you know. Sorry about that. I mean, I mean again, you can't be too careful. You can't be too careful, you do what you can, but sometimes you know there are a lot of unscrupulous people around, yeah, and you can never really tell. You know are a lot of unscrupulous people around, yeah, and you can never really tell, you know. But I am I'm sure your audience understand that this was not intentional, because if it was intentional you still wouldn't be in the business exactly.
Speaker 2:You would have run away exactly you still wouldn't be in the business. In this, your industry of journalism, you have people who can stay in that industry for about 30 years, 25 years. They are still on TV. A young girl who just graduated did journalism. You have dreams of maybe going on TV, but then the old sharks are still on TV right. Not giving room for the younger ones to come in. You took such a bold step to say that I want to do my own thing. New media what are you telling the younger ones?
Speaker 1:Don't let fear overcrowd your vision. Fear is a dream killer. It stops you from attaining your potential. I lost money with my potatoes, but then again, with the support of another agency, I have 6.3 acres and this time around I want to do things better by getting a boho, having an agronomist on site and then going into my production. If you want to do TV or want to do radio, do not only be inspired by the senior on TV. Have your own identity and have your unique production, your unique self. A lot of the times I hear people say you're inspiring me, I want to be like you. I say no, don't be like me, be yourself.
Speaker 1:It takes a lot to produce a content. So if you want to start being a creator, you can learn on the job. You can go and write for attachment or volunteer works. It's just for you to learn how to script, how to direct, how to host, how to do any pertinent production work. You can do that for some six months or one year, depending on your strength. Then look for a niche area, or one year, depending on your strength. Then look for a niche area where a lot of people are not there. You see, there are some sectors in the journalism space that when you go there it will take time for you to shine. Okay, like politics, for instance, there are sects who are presenters in politics. So when you be like you, you will take long to be recognized, unless, of course, you go the other way, which you know you will disrespect industry.
Speaker 1:people talk big. Then you say, hey, who is this one to? But is that a brand you want to create? No, want to. But is that a brand you want to create? No. So look for gray areas where people are not exploring and tap into that. That is number one. Number two is be willing to invest the little you have. I always say that before I owned my equipment, I was using my money to pay for renting cameras and paying crew until I grew to a certain level and I could own equipment.
Speaker 1:But there are those who have the desire but taking the risk to make that desire a reality. They don't want to. So who will give you the money? Me, I won't give you money if you have nothing to show. If you come to me that I know I want to produce and I ask you what have you produced so far? And you tell me, no, it's just on paper, or I just have it in my head. I'm sorry, but I cannot risk my money like that. So before you go seeking for help, go with something to show, then it is worth supporting and then, thirdly, pay your dues.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Go through the process. There are a lot of young journalists who want to cut corners and be at the top Again. I always say what brand are you creating? Is it a brand that, when it's mentioned, I didn't know you were investigating or talking to people about me, but then what were the stories that were told? Were they negative? If it was, you wouldn't bring me here, because you respect your brand. So pay your dues, take your time, go through, respect whoever you need to respect. Greet Carry bags.
Speaker 1:I was once a production assistant on Morning Ride. Then days when we mentioned Morning Ride, it was one of the biggest shows and it was hosted by Aninta Osu. I used to hold her shoes, her bags. Enyo, bring my dress, I'm going Enyo. At times when you're done with production transport you don't even get, but the next Saturday I'm the first to come.
Speaker 1:That is where I learned a lot and when she has time, she'll is where I learned a lot and when she has time she said to you Daniel, learn and make sure when you have money you invest. Don't be so much about the flashy dresses and bags and things. Make sure at the end of the day, when you are leaving TV, you have a place to sleep. Don't be thinking about flashy lifestyle. I said yes, mommy, and so learn to pay your dues and when you get there, you'll be respected and accorded that credibility. I watched a video and the man said money is not physical cash, it's about the integrity, the credibility. Who can vouch for you when you are not in that room, when recommendations are happening? The names have been mentioned. Who mentions your name, derek that? I know one, derek. If you give him this job, he will deliver. Who does that? So, as a young presenter, creator or journalist, make sure you pay your dues.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of things in this industry where, especially for the young ladies, they go through a lot of issues before they can get to the ladder. What were some of the challenges?
Speaker 1:for you. I mean it's normal. I mean men making advances. So long as you're a beautiful woman, people will make advances to you. They would hey, there is this show, I'd love to get you to host it. There's this project I'd love to put you on it. Can we meet for dinner? Can we meet for lunch? Can we meet for this?
Speaker 1:And so when you're in a hurry to get to the top, then you fall for some of these lies, if I should say, because, at the end of the day, some of these lies, the promises that are made, are not fulfilled. So, as a young woman, take your time. If you don't have the tolerance, the spirit of patience, the spirit of taking one step at a time, then you'll fall for some of this. So why don't you go through the step-by-step grooming and when the promises are made, don't fall for it. Fall for it. If only you were confident of your craft and you have some little resources, you can start weaving your phone. I tell people I never wanted to buy an iPhone. By the time I got to that point, I needed to own an iPhone, but the iPhone bought itself out of my work.
Speaker 1:I didn't have to struggle to buy an iPhone. I was using 12 Pro. Today I use 16 Pro, and even the 16 Pro it was a gift from one of the clients I work with. I got a drone from a client. I'm promoting their product.
Speaker 1:So that's what I always say that you might never know the eyes who are watching you. You might never know the discussions that are happening with your name behind you, and so you've got to be careful. Smile, say the hellos, attend the programs if you wish to, but you know Udimaya posted something on social media. He says your net worth is your net worth. I was with him in Kenya recently and he poured a lot of sense. He said Enyo, you see, this work we are doing, that's what pay the bills, and so don't even do free work. When someone calls you, it means they need your service. If you mention what you think you deserve, they are allowed to negotiate, but anything below the standard don't accept it, because if you're not worth it, they wouldn't have come for you.
Speaker 1:I've traveled to different countries. I don't remember spending so much money. I don't remember spending. The only time I spent money was when I was going to Uganda and Kenya for the first time. It was for me. Maya said, hey, you've got to leave Ghana and go elsewhere. Go and check out what you're doing. I said, okay, I'll save money and go. And I went. But every other country, from Rwanda to Turkey, zimbabwe, who Count? It was all sponsored. Either go and do training South Africa, I've gone to Cape Town.
Speaker 1:It's companies who say, hey, we've seen the work you're doing. We were training journalists to do this. Do you mind joining? I said, why not? You see me flying plane today. It didn't come cheap. I drive today. It didn't come cheap. I own a land today because of the Ghanaian farmer. It didn't come cheap, it was not a walk in the park.
Speaker 1:I've worked with a lot of renowned international organizations like World Food Program. Sorry, dali Dad Sono. I've worked with a lot of renowned international organizations like World Food Program. Sorry, dali Dad Sono. I've worked with I can't even name. But it took time to build that credible brand, attractive enough that aligns with that brand's vision to want to come to you and work with you.
Speaker 1:So I always say that in Agreg the young people. I tell them use your phone to promote Agreg. I am a member of the Agriculture Influencers Network, a network again created with the support of Mastercard Foundation. Why is the Food and Agriculture Ministry not doing that? Mofa or Ag great ministry will organize programs and call journalists from politics and business to come and cover. Why are our great journalists not giving priority and attention in Ghana? And so for me, I want it to be different. Derek, there are a lot of our great journalists around, but I got a call from a young man who said there's a program happening in K and USC and his boss said look for a young lady who is championing agri to be a speaker. And when they go on the internet to type agri-journalist or agri-this, my name pop up first. Okay, and he went to check me out and he thinks I'm the best candidate. How are you carving the brand you claim you have? That's food for thought.
Speaker 2:Wow, this is what we do best, right, be silent. Listen and learn At this point. If you haven't subscribed, please do, and learn At this point. If you haven't subscribed, please do. Is there anything we could have spoken about that we haven't?
Speaker 1:that we still think we can talk about. If you're an unemployed graduate, especially one that has studied agri, and you're unemployed because government hasn't posted you to a government farm or no farmer has called you to come and render your service in your home and you're complaining, I think you're doing yourself a great disservice, because if I, who hadn't studied at Grincon College, can do consultation for both people home and abroad and charge a fee, come on now. You're doing yourself a great disservice. Unemployed graduate association you are a proud member of that. Really, that should be scrapped. Derek, why did we get trained in school? It's to use the brain, think creatively and apply it. What are you doing with extension, general agri and everything that you've learned? What I'm saying to a young agri college graduate is that there are a lot of helpless farmers who need your service. So register a business and sell your service and make money.
Speaker 1:Poverty is a choice, my brother. If you want to be poor in Ghana, it's a choice. If you want to live good, make money, it is also a choice. Someone once told me where there's a problem is where he gets his money, because you see, that's where he will create solution and get the money from your pockets. I can't force you to give me money, derek, but if I know the problem that you have and I can find a solution for you, I will easily get money from you without having to ask for it. There are a lot of diasporans who have farms in Ghana. Even there are a lot of Ghanaian people who have farms and are looking for extension agents, because in Ghana, one extension officer is to about 750 or 1000 farmers. That is bad, very bad, and so if you, who is not assigned by government, you can't package your service and sell so people can reach out to you, then you decide to be poor now.
Speaker 2:Motivation or discipline.
Speaker 1:Discipline. Okay, because if I'm not disciplined, I would have used all the good monies I'm making for flashy stuff. You know, do the big makeups, wear the big wigs. Someone asked me one time why are you wearing this? I said this, the big wigs. Someone asked me one time why are you wearing this hair? I said this one is the cheapest. I like this one. I just bath inside, I use my styling gel. I'm good to go this one. I wear this till.
Speaker 1:God knows when I've worn wigs before, derek, when I was doing business trends. I wear wigs. I do the makeups. I change clothes every time the money was going. But today, when I was disciplined with my money, I'll is, if nothing at all. I own a land, I'm building a house, I drive a comfortable car. If I want want to travel, I can go. I'm married to an entrepreneur as well. My husband is into branding and marketing, and so imagine nobody pays us at the end of the month. We write our paychecks, and so if you're not disciplined and the motivation of fashion leads you, you'll become broke.
Speaker 2:Wow, wow, ayanam, what's the best advice you've ever received? Hmm, Hmm. This happens all the time. It happens all the time. That's a hard one, huh?
Speaker 1:Hmm, but we'll wait. We have the time. It happens all the time.
Speaker 2:That's a hard one, huh, but we'll wait. We have the time.
Speaker 1:The best advice I've ever received. Best advice.
Speaker 1:It's to build a legacy. Okay, you see, in your absence, what people remember and talk about matters a lot. If you are remembered by friends or business associates, what do they remember you to talk about? Yesterday, when I met this gentleman from the UK who said because of you, I've relocated to Ghana. Because of you, I've invested with one of the young farmers you've interviewed and today his farm is blowsome. Because when I went to Gabriel's farm, he has about six or eight greenhouses but he was using just two because he didn't have the money to. You know, work on the others, but today Gabriel's farm is blossoming because of you. You have no idea what you do for us in the diaspora. What is so inspiring? This guy will say this thing someday when he hears that the NUNAM is no more around. I want to be remembered and my legacy will make people smile the Ghanaian farmer can you recommend a book for us?
Speaker 1:the book I'm currently reading was written by a Ghanaian. Ok, he was talking about the African advantage.
Speaker 2:Right Senior man Obendakun. Thank you, yes, that's my my boss, senior.
Speaker 1:Man.
Speaker 2:Obendakun, that your book is powerful. I'd like to say thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it to say thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it because I know you have to rush back to the office very quickly and get things done. I appreciate it and hopefully you come to my farm very soon.
Speaker 1:I'm waiting.
Speaker 2:And for my viewers and my listeners. If you've enjoyed this conversation and you made it to the end, we know exactly what to do. Please leave a comment and let me know who. You've enjoyed this conversation and you made it to the end, we know exactly what to do. Please leave a comment and let me know who you are. And don't forget the 29th of August. That event is going to be mind-shifting. That's it. It's called Revealing the Success Code. My name is Derek Abayite and stay connected, I'm out.