Unlock the hidden layers of loyalty and humor within the Harry Potter series' most underrated character. Joined by Ron Weasley aficionado Dani Alexander, I, Professor Julian Wamble, take you behind the spectacles of everyone's favorite ginger to discover just how his steadfast friendship and quick wit define the core of the beloved trio. We'll unravel the moments that showcase Ron's importance, from his suggestion of leg-breaking dedication to the nuances of his arguments with Hermione, proving that his value stretches far beyond comic relief.
Finally, we tackle the task of holding our childhood heroes accountable, while extending empathy for their growth. We reflect on the biases we, as adults, bring to our understanding of these characters, challenging you to consider the societal expectations placed on youth, especially children of color, and how we leverage those biases against certain characters whose personalities we may experience in our own lives.
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GINNY WEASLEY SURVEY
Unlock the hidden layers of loyalty and humor within the Harry Potter series' most underrated character. Joined by Ron Weasley aficionado Dani Alexander, I, Professor Julian Wamble, take you behind the spectacles of everyone's favorite ginger to discover just how his steadfast friendship and quick wit define the core of the beloved trio. We'll unravel the moments that showcase Ron's importance, from his suggestion of leg-breaking dedication to the nuances of his arguments with Hermione, proving that his value stretches far beyond comic relief.
Finally, we tackle the task of holding our childhood heroes accountable, while extending empathy for their growth. We reflect on the biases we, as adults, bring to our understanding of these characters, challenging you to consider the societal expectations placed on youth, especially children of color, and how we leverage those biases against certain characters whose personalities we may experience in our own lives.
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GINNY WEASLEY SURVEY
Welcome to Critical Magic Theory, where we deconstruct the wizarding world of Harry Potter, because loving something doesn't mean you can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julianne Womble and this is part two of our Ronald Weasley exploration y'all, and we are back with the illustrious expert of Ron Weasley herself, dani Alexander. Welcome back.
Dani:Thank you, I'm happy to still be here, moments from the last time I was here.
Julian:It's amazing what one can do when you just hit a button and all of a sudden it feels like time has moved forward.
Dani:Magic.
Julian:Do we have time turners Technology, the true time turner? We are going to dive right back into our discussion about Ron Weasley, but first we've got to take the next 25 seconds to bop along to the theme song. So get your shoulders ready. Even if you're driving, you can bop a little and let's do this thing. You can bop a little and let's do this thing. We need to talk about Harry Potter. I hope you danced Again. I want to make the caveat that the Ron Weasley that we are talking about in this part two is going to be mostly book Ron, Not fan, and Ron, not movie Ron. Book Ron.
Dani:And they're important.
Julian:Boo movie Ron, sorry, I had to interrupt.
Dani:I was so upset I had to interrupt.
Julian:Sometimes you just got to get it out. You know that's what we're talking about. What repression does to the soul.
Dani:And I think we just have to we're repressing nothing here, nothing, everything is coming out.
Julian:Okay, this second episode is going to be chaotic and that's the energy that I need, so I'm ready. I'm not editing out the chaos, so I want to begin with thinking about one of our favorite Ron moments, and I'll go first. Our favorite Ron moments, and I'll go first.
Julian:One of my favorite Ron moments is when Harry finds out that Snape is going to be the referee for the Quidditch match in Sorcerer's Stone, slash Philosopher's Stone. And when he goes back because he's like shaken to his core and he tells Ron and Hermione and they're like going through solutions and Hermione says, oh, just pretend you broke your leg. And Ron goes really break your leg. And every single time I lose it because he's like why even fake it? Like we, this is life or death. You need to make sure that there is absolutely nothing that this man can do to you. And I think you know, based on the conversation that we had in part, one of this episode is that this is a moment that really speaks to Ron's loyalty to and just like what it means to be a good friend, where he's like so worried. He's like listen, don't fake it, just break it, and honestly, I love that, so don't fake it, just break it.
Julian:Just break it Words to live by, depending on what you're breaking. We're not going to get into it, it's fine. But I just love that moment because I think he it really does embody who he is as a friend, where he's like you need to do whatever it takes to stay safe. And we know, or at least we believe that we know that Snape is a threat to your safety and so you need to kind of protect yourself. And if that means actually breaking your leg, then frankly, so be it, and I just love that. That was his recourse, was like all of the magical things that one could do, and he's like nope, just break your leg for real and that will solve this problem. And I don't know, it just is one that every single time it happens and the way that Jim Dale narrates it is so funny to me. I just I love that moment. So, so, so, so much. Dani, what is one of your favorite Ron moments?
Dani:I'm torn right now between two.
Julian:Share both.
Dani:So one of my favorite Ron moments speaks again to another controversial thing about Ron and it's how much he argues with Hermione. But one of my favorite moments is when Hermione learns about house elves and she is like hair on fire, like I'm going to fight for justice. And they get to Hogwarts and she learns that the food is made by house elves and she goes I'm going to stop eating, I'm going on strike, I'm not going to eat. And Ron's like okay, and literally the very next morning she comes in and is like buttering a piece of toast and Ron's like what's that about? I thought you were striking huh. And I love it because it's one of my favorite things about their dynamic. He always calls her out when she's being a little hypocritical.
Julian:Yeah.
Dani:And her heart's in the right place. Of course no one's arguing that. But he sees that she has a lot of hot air in that moment and he's like, yeah, I called that and it keeps her humble and keeps her honest and keeps her from becoming overly self-righteous. And I kind of love that about the role he plays.
Julian:Yeah, because I think, hermione, what's true is that sometimes, like she lacks accountability and I say this as a person who, like, is very good at talking myself into anything and justifying any of my behavior. And justifying any of my behavior I think that having a friend who's like actually no, you just kind of made that up is it's very helpful in keeping you together and humble and accountable for your behavior and your actions.
Dani:I just yeah, I love that about him and I love that part especially. And then the other one is just very simple. I think Draco's making fun of Harry I think is what's happening and Ron just picks up a crocodile heart and like hauls it across the room and smacks Draco with it. Chef's kiss, chef's kiss moment. I love it.
Julian:That is really funny. He's like why even go through anything else? We just need to like give me that crocodile heart. Okay, so we're going to dive right back into the arithmancy lesson. Again, for those of you who haven't listened to part one, first off, go back. Maybe after this episode. You don't have to do it in order, but, like you said, some really good stuff in that episode, so you need to go and listen to that. But again, for those of you who haven't listened to that episode yet, there were 1,002 responses, which is unbelievable.
Julian:And so we're going to start with the question of is Ron Weasley a good pureblood? As always, this question never disappoints and it always leads to some pretty much equal divide. So about 38% said yes, about 36% said no and about 26% said don't know. I love this question. Y'all. I know y'all hate it, but I absolutely love this question because I think it really gets at the heart of what I hope this podcast does, which is invites us to think about what does it mean to be a good anything?
Julian:But in this case it's hard, because pure-bloodedness is so confounded with negative things, and I think what's true for the Weasleys is that we tend to attribute very positive attributes to them, and some of them are deserved and some of them are just because we love them, because they're nice to Harry, and so the question of whether or not this group of people are good purebloods really invites us to think about.
Julian:What does it mean to be a pureblood person, and how is it that we can then understand the nuances of that? And I think that Ron is a complicated character in this regard and I find myself a bit conflicted in the way that I answer this question. Someone wrote the reason I say he is not a good pureblood is because I feel like it depends on how we a good pureblood is, because I feel like it depends on how we define good pureblood and by whose standards I typically define it by the standards of pureblood supremacists, as these are who, I feel, place the most importance on pureblood values. Ron and his family are generally more positive towards muggles than other pureblood families. In addition to this, ron ends up dating Hermione, who is muggle-born. So according to the pureblood supremacist, he would be considered a blood traitor, which, by traditional pureblood values, is negative. This is mostly my reasons for categorizing Ron as a bad pureblood.
Dani:First off, this is a question I never would have thought about until you started bringing it up in your videos, and it's been very compelling to consider by the metric that you know that commenter was going on. Yes, I agree, terrible, bad, pure blood. But if you think of it from the context of what makes you a good member of any power class, I think it is. What are you doing to support the oppressed class in that regard? While Ron has a lot of learning to do and I'm not saying he's like a, you know, muggle-born activist here, but he lives by example with. He doesn't really see anyone who is muggle-born as any different. He constantly praises Hermione's exceptionalism and he fights on the side of the people who are standing up for muggles.
Julian:And he's learned that, I think, through his family, who, again, imperfect but trying, and I think that's beliefs about people who can't do magic are not great. And I think what I love about Ron with regard to this question is the fact that he really shows us, even more so than Draco, what it is to be socialized as a pureblood think we see it pop out in certain moments, Like when he finds out that Hagrid is part giant. His very initial reaction is so instinctual he doesn't have time to filter it, to try to make it come off as something that isn't like prejudiced and biased.
Julian:Same with Lupin, yeah, and the same thing with Lupin, right.
Julian:So we see in this moment, despite how his family kind of thinks about, you know, muggle-born people, that there are some things that are harder for them to shake.
Julian:I mean, we see them obviously bring Lupin in and really kind of accept him as a member of the family for all intents and purposes.
Julian:Kind of unfiltered knee-jerk reaction that we see from Ron tells us such a very specific story about how his pure-bloodedness plays in his kind of own understanding. And again, I know that he is a child but I think, to be perfectly honest, his being a child allows for us to really see the truth, Because I think when you are a child you're so much less considerate of what is socially acceptable. So to see him in these moments like champion, you know, not using derogatory terms towards muggle-borns, but also at the same time holding some of these more negative prejudice views that have to kind of either be corrected or kind of shifted a bit, I think, tells us a story and in that way, like I think he is a good pureblood in a bad way right, Like I think that he kind of still has some of these things. That's the nuance of it all, right? Is that, like you, can be someone who is not necessarily anti-Muggle-born a la the Malfoys, but who can still hold some of these negative views and they didn't come from nowhere.
Dani:Yeah, no, but I'm nodding vigorously because this is so true. I think anyone who would say that they haven't had a prejudice or a thought in their life is a lying liar, because we just absorb these things like a sponge, even if we are not raised with an explicitly prejudiced mindset. And those moments you brought out are so strong because we then see how much of a champion for Hagrid Ron is and how, if someone calls Hermione a slur, he's going to immediately, no questions asked, attack that person Draco Malfoy. So we see him learning, we see the nuance, and I think that's very powerful.
Julian:I mean, we know that the magical society is outrageously segregated. They don't interact with muggles at all. All he knows are these truths, and we know that giants have been exiled, we know that werewolves have been exiled, and so he doesn't come into contact with a lot of these other magical communities at all and so in some ways, right like he is a byproduct of a social system that is kind of built on pure blood supremacy, and it's only when Harry's like dude Hagrid is our friend and Ron's like oh right, no, of course I know this person. So now I and I have known him for four years that he has to really be checked. And I think what is great about Ron in both of these moments is that he's willing to correct and recognize like oh, this actually that can't be understated.
Julian:No, it can't be, Because there are a lot of people who would not correct and who would say, oh, this person has just been lying to me and hiding their true nature. And that's not what Ron does. Ron actually does correct himself and does kind of pull back and say, okay, like maybe we need to walk it back a little bit. And I think that you know, especially at that age, you know that is saying something, because normally those kinds of things, especially like in the real world, don't happen until you go to college and realize, like you know, everything that was happening where you lived is not what's happening everywhere else. So to do it at 14 and 13 is did I hit home?
Dani:I think back to high school me, college me, my world was rocked.
Julian:It'll do it.
Dani:When I went to college and so many people were and you're like, oh wow, I've been taught so many wrong things.
Julian:And so I think for a lot of the time that we spend with Ron, we see what it is to be the product of society that privileges purebloods, and I think what we also then see in him is a transition from like a good pureblood in the bad way to a better pureblood in the good way, right, and so, and I don't think that that journey is ever really over, but I do think that we get to see in him kind of what it looks like, and I always tell my students I'm like when the bar is Death Eater, it's so easy to clear, and so I think that so many of us bring to this question, this idea of like being a good, pure blood, is not being a Death Eater, and I think that there's so much more nuance to the idea of that and I think Ron embodies that in a lot of really interesting ways.
Julian:And I think each of the Weasleys tap into a very specific kind of pure-bloodedness that invites us to kind of think about what it means to be pure-blood and be a quote-unquote good one, and I appreciate them for that, because I think sometimes we extend too much grace to them. But I do think that it's nice to be able to see kind of the nuances of pure-bloodedness in a different context, because if we were to juxtapose them with the Malfoys, obviously they're, you know, sunshine and rainbows. The next question is is Ron Weasley a hero? So about 59% said yes, 29% said no and about 12% said don't know. Dani, what do you think of this?
Dani:I. There was a quote that I loved from the comments that says I think Ron is like Sam Gamgee, he's not the main character, but the main character would have fallen a dozen times over without them there.
Julian:I loved that one too.
Dani:It's so succinct and so perfect, I think, for Ron's role and, to be quite honest, like this question to me isn't even a debate he's a hero. He's a hero Like the number of times he put his life on the line for Harry. Stood up alongside him, stood up for his friends he didn't go kicking and screaming alongside him, stood up for his friends. He didn't go kicking and screaming. He leapt at the opportunity to defend and show up and go into harm's way alongside his friends. You know, spiders aside, even that he did it even though he did not want to.
Dani:Um, and I have a couple examples.
Julian:I don't know if that'll derail. No.
Dani:But one of them we talked about in the last episode, which is in the Shrieking Shack, and the movie did such a disservice by taking these moments away from Ron. But this is when they're in the Shrieking Shack, they're facing Sirius, who they still believe to be like this maniacal murderer, and he stands up with a broken leg and declares if you want to kill Harry, you have to kill us first. He's like, clutching to Harry with a broken leg as he says this, hermione's next to him saying like shh, be quiet, stop it. And then he doubles down and goes did you hear me? You'll have to kill all three of us. And it says he said it with like this weak voice because he was in so much pain, but he was like no, I'm going to make this clear, even though I can barely stand up, I will fight you.
Dani:And in the movie they gave that to Hermione, which was really frustrating because it's such a strong show of Ron's character. Another is in the Half-Blood Prince, another moment they gave to Hermione. At the very end, harry's implying he's going on this horcrux hunt alone and Ron and Hermione are just kind of looking at him dumbfounded. And then Ron's the one who says we'll be there, harry, at your aunt and uncle's house, and then we'll go with you wherever you're going. We're with you whatever happens.
Dani:On the run in Deathly Hallows he tells Hermione he'll put her on his family tree and help her train her on the whole family tree so that they can disguise her as a pure blood and not a muggle born. Um, he throws himself in front of her when they're being attacked by death eaters inside the cafe. Once they escaped from the wedding, he at one point she's like saying she's going to go forage for, you know, mushrooms, whatever the stuff they're eating. And she's like it just makes more sense if I go alone. And it says Ron snarls like no. And she's like it just makes more sense if I go alone. And it says Ron snarls like no, you will not go alone. And I'm like okay.
Julian:I was affected by that.
Dani:And then finally, like gosh at Malfoy Manor, when Hermione is being tortured. For three straight pages it talks about how Ron is screaming, banging against the walls, yelling up at the ceiling of the cellar Hermione, hermione, hermione, hermione. When he finally gets free, he bursts into the sitting room and disarms Bellatrix Lestrange. Like this man, this boy I'm not going to say he's a man, because boy is a hero- the defense rests. That's what I was going for. The defense rests.
Julian:The defense rests Like I think the case has been made. The evidence has been presented.
Dani:Yeah, bang the gavel, see you later. Bye.
Julian:What is fascinating to me is that some of us were less willing to kind of give him the flowers of being a hero in the comments, on the grounds of like his motivations, like why he was doing some of this, this. And I just want to point out something that many of us brought to bear in the opposite direction for Percy and in the spirit of keep that same energy, I just want to bring this up Many of us were so willing to make the claim that Percy was a hero because he saw the error and came back when it mattered, and I want to point out that we need to keep that same energy for Ron. One of the things that I've said on numerous episodes with regard to this question for numerous characters has been the Weasleys have very little stake in the battle with Voldemort because Voldemort isn't going to kill them, because they are purebloods. So if they sat out, they would obviously be seen as blood traitors, but they wouldn't lose their lives. They probably wouldn't even lose their livelihoods because they are part of a protected class. So anything that they do to disrupt and undercut what Voldemort is trying to do is heroic because it is unnecessary for them.
Julian:And in the moments where we see Percy make choices and then come back, ron make choices and then come back and then still fight. Mm-hmm, yeah, is heroic because not only did they not have to come back, but they didn't have to lay their lives on the line for anyone. They could have just not. And we know that there are many pureblood families who maybe don't support what Voldemort is putting out into the world, who didn't fight, don't support what Voldemort is putting out into the world, who didn't fight.
Julian:And there is something to be said about that behavior in and of itself being heroic, being brave because it is so not required, and what one has to confront when making that decision is is goes beyond like the normal. And Ron takes it even further than anyone else in his family did in terms of how he went about being heroic, and Danny gave us amazing examples that kind of predate the Wizarding War. But also I think I would be remiss to not point out the fact that, like Percy, when it counted, ron returned and then had to confront his fears and concerns and insecurities in the form of a horcrux, a soul sucking device, and did it and Save Harry did that, and I think that, yeah, no, I don't love that he left. I don't, I don't 't I have.
Dani:I don't know if there's an off the wall thought, but like do we see this parallel between percy left and tried to tell ron to leave and ron was like no, but then ron left? Hello and, like percy, had to come back tail between his legs with that remorse.
Julian:There's something about leaving that requires a person to, in the solitude of their own insecurities and in their own space, to truly reflect on what's important.
Julian:And I think that what's true for the Weasleys in a lot of ways is that the like privileges that they do have kind of make them unable to see kind of what they have right, like that's the thing about privilege, right, is that it's so invisible that you don't really recognize, like the privilege of having a loving family and friends that care about you. And I think that there's something about leaving. It's the leaving that feels cowardly, but it's the coming back. To me that's the most heroic, but not even just coming back. Every time that we've seen these characters come back, they come back with a new sense of self and have done the work of figuring out who they are. And I will say that that's one of the things that we love about Fan and Draco. And so, again, let's keep that same energy. I'm just saying I just want us to keep that same energy when it comes to Ron. People are going to get so mad.
Dani:I know.
Julian:It's okay.
Dani:I'm like me. I want us to keep that same energy.
Julian:So much of what we see right, like the great comeback, is a big deal within the Weasley clan, and it's they don't come back the same, and I think that that's so important.
Dani:Yeah, it can be the gradual dismantling of harmful behaviors, opinions, worldviews, and years later you are a more mature person who has paid your dues for the mistakes that you made and now you're doing better, and that is just as honorable.
Julian:Yeah, just as honorable, yeah, and when you're doing it by yourself, both for Ron and for Percy, right Like there is the solitude of these moments, are the things that really kind of forced them to appreciate what they had. It's the coming, it's the great comeback that I think really stands out to me in a number of dimensions. Right Like we see these moments where Ron and a number of dimensions. Right Like we see these moments where Ron again, even in Goblet of Fire, where he had to come back to Harry and say like hey, I'm sorry.
Dani:And you notice he always doubles down, like when he comes back after making a mistake. He goes like that extra step to show how remorseful he is in his actions, like in a prisoner of Azkaban, after he has this huge falling out. Harry and he both have a falling out with Hermione on the other side of it Hagrid like tells him like you boys have not been acting, treating her well.
Julian:Yeah.
Dani:And they recognize it. And then Ron is in that library as if he was hermione granger researching how to protect buckbeak. Like you see harry's commentary after deathly hallows when he comes back from the horcrux that he's, like you know, extra sensitive and kind and sweet to hermione like trying to be like he knows he's in trouble, he knows he's done wrong and he's doing extra steps to redeem himself, like he doesn't just come back and be like I'm here.
Julian:And this is a perfect segue into the final question, which is is Ron Weasley a good friend again? Divisive so I wasn't prepared. Uh, so we've got about 40% who said yes, about 48% sheesh who said no and about 13% who said don't know, dani, I I have to ask.
Dani:Are we asking if he's a good friend or if he's a perfect and infallible person? And this is where we talked a lot about how not approaching these characters with our you know not, not adultifying them. But I think this is an instance where our, our adult perspective is actually very beneficial because, you know, we've had friends that we've been friends with I have my best friend of 20 years and we have hurt each other, we have said unkind things, intentionally and unintentionally, and we still show up for each other, we still work through the conflict and we learn and grow and move through it and move through it. And it just seems so shallow to me to see a person who shows up over and over and over for their friends and say he's a bad friend because he calls Hermione a know-it-all, because he left them in the horcrux hunt, because he got jealous over something that was, you know, pretty dramatic, like with the Goblet of Fire.
Dani:And then, going back to our question in the last episode where we talked about why do we offer more generosity and grace to Hermione and Harry over Ron? Hermione and Harry wronged each other and Ron in all the same ways, different ways, but all the same gravity of ways. But I think it's like we're taking these moments and making these moments speak to entire person's character and it's like how, when someone's mean to you, you only remember the mean thing they said, even though 98% of the time they're not mean to you. So I don't know. This one really. This one really shocked me because it's it's like do is this how you treat the people in in real life?
Julian:I think the horcrux hunt was a thing that came up in a lot in the comments and and I will admit that, like you know, that is something that also deeply affects me and my perception of ron, and I, and again, don't think that that's wrong, but I think what I'm feeling compelled by is this idea of you know.
Julian:Somebody said like no one is the sum of their mistakes, and I think what is true for Ron, that I think is so unfair, is that we really do allow all of his mistakes to dictate everything about him in ways that we don't do for Harry, that we don't do for Hermione. And it comes back to what we talked about in the last episode, which is this idea of like, because his loyalty as a friend is not prized as much as, say, hermione's intellect or Harry's determination. We don't give him the privilege of the benefit of the doubt that we give them when it comes to the things that they do, and so it allows. Then he doesn't have the kind of buffer that we give to other characters in these books, because we don't necessarily see the beautiful moments that he brings to bear as being beautiful enough or exceptional enough.
Dani:Yeah, loyalty, humor, steadfastness, like that's all fine and good, but, like I said in the last episode, it's not something we lay in bed at night and fantasize about. We want to be the best. We want to have all the accolades. You want to be the person that people think of, have all the accolades. You want to be the person that people think of when they think of who is exceptional in this area. And Ron is just not that. He's the solidly average, sometimes above average, normal dude who makes mistakes, learns from them. Sometimes it takes several times before he learns from them, and it's just so painfully real that I think it makes it hard, for it may make it hard for people to forgive him, because there's nothing shiny and bright overshadowing his flaws.
Julian:And this makes me wonder are we looking for something shiny and bright to overshadow his flaws? And because we cannot find it, we are livid and we punish him. It, we are livid and we punish him. And I think that this makes me think of when I ask my students what are the differences between Ron and Draco, and why is it that we're so much more forgiving for Draco than we are for Ron?
Julian:One of the things that one of my students said was Ron is supposed to be that friend, that friend that is going to be with you through thick and thin, the ride or die, and I think that we have pointed out time and time again moments where Ron has done that, but it's not sensational because he also has major transgressions on the grounds of his friendship, friendship. And so I wonder if it's possible that part of the disdain that people have for Ron is that the exceptional piece of his character and his personality is meant to be his loyalty, is meant to be his friendship, and we see it come up, but it is fallible, it is flawed and it is not always there when we want it to be, in a way that Harry's determination is always there even when we don't want it to be, and Hermione is always smart. But Ron's friendship, it is always there, but it doesn't manifest in a way that feels perfect. It doesn't manifest in a way that is not without its flaws and failures.
Dani:Yeah, I think that's hugely insightful and I hadn't thought about it that way. But you're right, there's the determination, the intelligence, and then he is friendship. And so when he falls short on friendship, we are going to hold him to such a higher standard, and when Hermione and Harry fall short on friendship, well, that's not who they're supposed to be and I think that's a little reductive of Ron's character. But I understand why people may have that expectation. I also think it's reductive of Ron's character, but I understand why people may have that expectation.
Julian:I also think it's reductive of Harry and Hermione. I think that it's like I wonder what would have happened if, in a moment, hermione had failed to do something that was intellectual right. Like what would have happened if she couldn't have conjured those Horcrux books, or the spell to the undetectable um extension charm had failed or the polyjuice potion didn't go right. Yeah, like would we have? Because she brewed it correctly, she just administered on herself incorrectly that's so true and some.
Dani:There was a comment in the uh we talked about in the last episode and I'd love to bring it back up here, where it says ron is the friend, so his friendships are the ones who are tested and explored the most. He gets to be disloyal because if harry or hermione were, or in this case, if they failed in their title, their mission, the narrative structure would fall apart. And so we do get to see them be bad friends, but they're not. That's not what's expected of them.
Dani:So they can I think it's very, it's very poignant observation.
Julian:And part of friendship and like especially ones that last long is recognizing like there are going to be moments where you're not going to be able to show up for your friends the way that they want you to, the way that you thought you would. There are going to be moments where you have to take a step back and I think again, I don't always love Ron's execution, but I understand the motivation.
Dani:Yeah, the heart is there usually, yeah, I. One thing that comes up a lot is that Ron is only friends with Hermione because she does his homework and like yeah, there are times throughout the book where he's like well, you just finished this or can I just copy off your paper? I?
Julian:hate those times.
Dani:You what?
Julian:I hate those times.
Dani:Yeah, and as as that girl in school you know, I'm like no, do your own work, I worked hard on this, like that. That feels very real to who I was as an adolescent. But it also discounts, like the number of times Harry walks into a room and Hermione and Ron are gabbing away laughing out loud. They go to Hogsmeade together. Harry shows up at the borough Hermione's already been there for days Like it completely ignores the fact that Ron and Hermione have an entire friendship outside of that that isn't contingent on Harry's presence.
Dani:I also another point I want to bring up is a lot of people talk about how much they argue and I don't know if people listening can tell I love a good debate and when I do have a point to make I can sound very intense. I internally am feeling so chill, I am feeling no type of way about it, but externally I come across as very intense. Is she raising her voice? Like no, this is just my volume.
Dani:Um, I grew up in a household where debate and argument was how we bonded and related. But so many people have avoidance of conflict, so they see Hermione and Ron having an argument and instead of and I'm not talking about like a real fight like over, you know scabbers and crookshanks, but like just the petty little things they go back and forth on. A lot of people won't look at that and see that as relationship building. It's just conflict, confrontation and all of that is bad. So I think that's really interesting how people perceive the two of them, because yeah, they do have a level of antagonism with each other sometimes that they would have to mature through.
Julian:But for the most part I'm like, yeah, they just love an argument, they love to hash it out and that's fun that's fun, yeah, and I think that what's true about arguments in general or debates or what have you is like, even when you're having them, if you're having them with people who you like, believe care about you, then you know that there's a baseline right and you know that you can always come back to this kind of homeostasis where it's like, no, but yeah, we were having and it got heated and and that you listen, I again. I'm a person who also is like, will fight it out with my favorite people.
Dani:We've never like argued, argued, but there have been exchanges between us where I'm like I disagree with you, julia.
Julian:You're like that's interesting.
Dani:Or you'll say something and I'm like that's interesting, Hmm.
Julian:And then we go back and forth about it. And that's, I think, to me, that's learning. There are going to be a lot of people who listen to this episode, who are in whatever transportation vehicle or sitting at their desk or however they listen, who are yelling back at us right now.
Dani:Yeah.
Julian:Who are very heated with.
Dani:Be nice to me y'all, I am sensitive.
Julian:I am not sensitive, so go for it. Go after Julian. Be nice to me y'all. I am sensitive.
Dani:I am not sensitive, so go for it, go after julian, be nice. They both love to argue and it's like hermione is the type who will steamroll and kind of her like self-righteousness and her like belief that she is so right, she will steamroll. I find that relatable. And Ron is the one who like pumps the brakes and is like excuse me, um, let's track that back for a second and like bring her back down to earth. And then on the other side you have Ron who's very hotheaded and will like kind of fly off the handle about something. And Hermione is like let's think about this logically, calm yourself down. So I think there's just a good balance there. Like I said, I think some of their fights yes, they're real fights they're not handling it well, it's immature, it's showing a lack of emotional intelligence. That's the type of thing that we see them. They should grow through. And then there's another type of argument between them, that is, two people who love to hash it out.
Julian:Ron grew up in a family of six other siblings, he knows how to fight, yeah, and I think it's also you know, we experience it from the perspective of Harry, who hates confrontation deeply, and also you never saw it from Petunia and Vernon, because rarely did they disagree, because Petunia would just do whatever Vernon wanted. And so the idea then that like he's so bad at dealing with confrontation and so it all feels, like he's so bad at dealing with confrontation and so it all feels and I think this is something that people often bring to like, bring to me in comments about posts that I make it's like, well, it's all from Harry's perspective, and I think this is a very important moment where recognizing his perspective as the kind of narrator of the text is important, because I think he sees everything through the lens of like meaningful, hurtful, deep confrontation in ways that probably just isn't true. And I think that you're right. Like I think that some of these things are just Hermione wants to be right and I get it. I love being right.
Dani:I love being right.
Julian:Oh God, it's nothing better than being right I got to tingle up my spine just thinking about how much I love being correct.
Dani:I love it.
Julian:And I think that and Ron needs to be right I think that there is this desire and this like fervent need to validate so much of his thinking, his existence, presence, his like, all of those things, and that when you put those two things together, oh, it's going to, they're going to go there. And I think that we have to kind of recognize again their children, one but two. Their personalities are ones that really do kind of invite fireworks sometimes, because they're not going to relent, they're not going to let up, and when they are onto something and they believe it, they are going to go for it. But I don't think it undermines how good a friend Ron is to both of them. I think it is part of their friendship.
Julian:I have friends who I am going to debate with you all the time we are going to fight. It's what we're going to do, and we know that that's how serious and Lupin were, because Snape mentions it, and so there are just some friendships where you have those dynamics, and I know we have them. And again, I'm sure that there are people right now who are like it's not the same, and I invite you to shoot me an email, write it in the comment, go for it. We love engagement.
Dani:I think it cannot be understated and it is so important to reemphasize what you said a little bit earlier about how, when you have these exchanges with people, it is so contingent on the baseline of trust that you have with each other.
Dani:Ron may say, hermione, you're a know-it-all, just shut up. But he isn't going to on purpose say something to tear her apart for the sake of it. Neither is Harry, neither is Hermione. There's always something behind it. When they truly say something mean to each other, that pokes that bruise.
Dani:There's usually something in their own insecurities and failings that is being exacerbated and prompting them to do that. They don't hurt each other just because and when they do hurt each other, they realize this person loves me and cares for me and has shown up in so many other ways that they're having a moment and we're going to move past it. And I think kids are far more forgiving of those mistakes than adults, and it's something that we're coming from our adult perspective. I've seen people say if a man talked to me the way Ron talked to Hermione, and I'm like do not tell me that 13 year old you would have stood up to the little boy in your class like 30 year old you would to a man you're trying to date who's going to be insulting to you Like it's completely different things.
Julian:This is the thing, and this is the thing. And so, okay, this is the perfect segue. We're segueing right in, right now, to our reflection.
Dani:We're moving there right now. I'm so ready for this one.
Julian:Because I think that the question that we have to tackle and I think that one of the things that we've talked about, you know, on and off the pod is what is it that we, as adults, are bringing to these characters that either prompts us to extend grace or to revoke it and, kind of, only extend animosity and anger? And I think you tapped into something here, which is this idea that, like that, reading it as an adult, we are seeking, we are taking the characters that we connected with as kids and making them us now, us now, and so we're expecting the responses and the actions and the behaviors that they are giving as 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 year olds. For us, as you know, late 20, early 30 somethings. If you don't fall in that age range, that's okay, we're happy that you're here. But I just happened having to look at the analytics. I know, I know the demo, but that there is that that we are expecting our own reactions from teenagers, which are not the reactions that we would have given when we were there.
Julian:Exactly, exactly, and I think one of the things that I've been reflecting on is I thought about Ron and kind of my own feelings about him, and this, this, these two episodes, have really done a lot of work, um, in helping me navigate some of it. But I also recognize that, like one of the things that I obviously bring to bear here is that, like I'm Black, and so that that is meaningful, um, in terms of my understanding of some of these characters. And one of the things that really stood out to me about Ron is and and I've reflected, and not only am I a Black man, but I teach on race, so because of that, it's like everywhere for me is that, like his privilege is something that gets away with and that we as a fandom are like, well, he's just a kid, he'll grow up and grow out of it. I've always felt like I've never really kind of resonated with that, and I have many videos on my TikTok that are like when do we get to hold them accountable? And I couldn't figure out, like the why. That question was a big one for me, and I think it's partially because so many black and brown children, whether they be boys or girls, don't get the benefit of the doubt of being children and not having to take responsibility for our actions and, to that end, we grow up much faster.
Julian:For me, like my expectation for Ron is born out of my own experience of someone who really didn't get to have the childhood that was kind of like footloose and fancy free, and so I see some of the things that he does and I'm like, uh, this is like I don't get why you get to be forgiven for this, like you should be responsible. And some of it feels fair and some of it is not fair. And I think that it's not Ron's fault that society doesn't allow certain people to be able to be children and that he got the benefit of being able to do that. And I think the juxtaposition of him and, say, a Harry who really didn't get to be that much of a kid because he had so much placed on him by society, really kind of encapsulates the way that I tend to look at Ron, in that I think like, yeah, I feel like sometimes it is unfair and I think that there are a lot of moments where Harry would want to be Ron.
Dani:Yeah.
Julian:And just get to, like, do whatever he wanted and not worry about it and just be normal.
Julian:And he says that a lot, yeah, and I think that that's something that resonates with me as an adult that I think I didn't connect with when I was a child, which is like, yeah, I would have loved to just kind of mess up and not feel like my mistakes were going to cost me something great, because society wasn't going to back me up the way that it was going to back up Ron. And I think, like, when I think about what we bring to bear, I think sometimes there are really solid critiques to leverage, but I think that in other moments we have to be mindful of the fact that, like some of it is us Like that's something that I need to talk to my therapist about and I can't place it on this kid, this character in fiction, this fictional kid right and say like you need to be, because it's not fair and it perpetuates cycles and it perpetuates ideas that are not great and are toxic but also are not the fault of children.
Dani:Yes.
Julian:Both fictional and real.
Dani:Yes, I mean like snaps 10,. I practiced that yeah, that was really good. Um, I did not practice this, but go for it, do it as a woman, I see how the traits that Ron's character displays as a kid the temper, the jealousy, the possessiveness over that's my friend Hermione was supposed to be my date like that. If we take these actions of this adolescent but we transpose them on an adult, that's when it becomes very toxic and abusive. And we know far too many men who are fully grown Talk about it who?
Dani:act like a 14-year-old Ron Weasley.
Julian:Talk about it. I was just about to write that down, talk about it.
Dani:Yes, and it's like I think we can come in and we see this character acting this way and it just rings far too true to how we see grown men acting. That we have. No, we just we shut down, no grace, no understanding and like I have to always. Like I said, I think these characters really challenge my empathy and Ron challenges my empathy, but it's like I have an incredible husband who is so conscientious and thinks about um women's rights and thinks about the misogyny that maybe was ingrained in him through how he was raised and the culture he was raised in and he addresses that was raised in the culture he was raised in and he addresses that.
Dani:Do I think a 14 year old version of my husband was like that? Certainly not. So I think it really comes from like our own experiences and also where, when it comes to fanon, where our imagination will let us go, because some people take those behaviors of his temper, his possessiveness, his jealousy and they can turn him into a villain, because those can be the basis, is the basis. That can be a basis for a villain, that can be the basis for a villain arc. It can also be the basis for learning and growth and becoming a person who knows better as an adult.
Julian:Oh, you did it.
Dani:Do I get snapped?
Julian:No, because I think that this is it. I think that so many of us, whether it be on the grounds of race, whether it be on the grounds of gender experience, grown Ron Weasleys who act like 14-year-old Ron Weasley and on the grounds of, again, on whatever identity grounds, we know them and I think that where we're struggling is our ability to disentangle the fact that it's not 13-year year old ron weasley's fault, that 37 year old billy is is acting like the same.
Julian:You know that it's not, it's not his fault it's not that we know a grown version of the 13 year old version of him. And I think again like this kind of Umbridge syndrome where we bring our experiences in on these characters, and I think that what is so difficult is because, again, ron is so normal and so relatable. We see him now as grown people and we're like this is unacceptable, so that when you read the books again it's hard to make the disconnect because you're like actually this 14-year-old who is throwing a fit because he feels betrayed by his friend, is acting just like the 42-year-old version. That is my boss, yep, I and it brings out something in us. I think it triggers something in us.
Dani:It does yeah.
Julian:And I think that like, yeah, I'm like I look at Ron sometimes and I'm like you are the mediocre white dude that, like, is mad that I got an opportunity that he didn't, and I feel that and I'm like, but that's not the character's fault, that is that dude's fault, and I think that we conflate those things sometimes in ways that are hard to kind of disentangle. And so well we cracked the code.
Julian:I think we did this has been another episode of critical magic theory. Thank you so much for listening and special thanks to our guest for two episodes. Y'all, danny, thank you so much for being here thank you for having me.
Dani:I appreciate the opportunity to to spread the good word about Ron Weasley.
Julian:I am just I feel, changed y'all. I'm not going to say like I'm a baptized, like pro-Ron, but at least I have some sense of why I feel the way that I feel and that feels important.
Dani:That's growth.
Julian:It is growth, Dani. Where can we find you on social media?
Dani:Yeah, so I'm on TikTok at holynyoki and on Instagram as danireadsthings.
Julian:Everyone needs to go and follow her. If you already haven't, especially if you are a fanfic reader like you, need to get into it, because the Jermione fix the Drary fix the first prince. For those of us who know what that is, we're not even going to get into that, because that's a whole nother thing and the hot Ron the hot Ron agenda that show who he could become if he matured through his issues, rather than becoming a 42 year old Chad.
Julian:And that is the Ron that we all need to be about. Also, I need to point out and thank my friends Mark Miller and Niles Luther for the amazing music. Thank you all so much for listening, if you enjoyed this episode. First off, thank you. Please feel free to write to what, to write comments, to subscribe, to follow, to do all the things that one does on pods, and if you want to continue this conversation, feel free to follow me at ProfW P-R-O-F-W on TikTok and at profjw on Instagram. Next episode we'll be talking about Ginny. Get excited, the it girl of the series. We're going to be getting into it. Have a great two weeks. I'll see you then. Until then, be critical and stay magical, my friends. Bye.