#117—Min Jung: A Neuroscientist's Insights into Unleashing Creativity

Min Jung  is a vice director of the Center for Synaptic Brain Dysfunctions at the Institute for Basic Science in South Korea and a professor in the Department of Biological Sciences at the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology. He is also the author of A Brain for Innovation: The Neuroscience of Imagination and Abstract Thinking. 

Min’s work gives us scientific insights into the actual foundation working of the brain, specifically how the brain generates innovative ideas. Min believes that everyone has an ability to be creative.

In this discussion, we dive deep into topics from his book, A Brain for Innovation: The Neuroscience of Imagination and Abstract Thinking seeking to uncover what it takes to do just that.

In this episode, Min shares with us: 

• The many complex, dynamic brain networks and how they function and interact in order to create abstract thinking and creativity 
• His concept of the "3 B's" of creativity, the three states that provide space for innovative ideas to emerge in your brain 
• How organizations can foster environments that facilitate creativity  
• The fascinating critical part “place cells,” neurons in the hippocampus, can play in shaping how we think, remember, organize, and enable organizational transformation

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Episode Timeline:
00:00—Highlight from today's episode
1:16—Introducing Min + the topic of today’s episode
4:00—If you really know me, you know that...
5:38—What's your definition of strategy?
7:07—Understanding the importance of brain networks
8:16—Min's take on abstract thinking
9:59—Min's object recognition neural network graph
11:08— The default mode network in a relaxed state
13:39—How our brains attaches value to things
14:53—The "3 Bs" for creativity
16:41— Finding the right work-relaxation balance
17:43— Comparing brain and organizational idea generation
20:16— The role of place cells in humans and animals
23:12— Using spatial metaphors in strategy to break down thinking
24:33— Tapping into your natural creativity
25:58—How can people follow you and continue learning from you?
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Additional Resources:
Book site:  A Brain for Innovation: The Neuroscience of Imagination and Abstract Thinking

Thank you to our executive producer Zach Ness, our producer Nazanin Homayoun Jam and our editor James Pearce. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening.

Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Transcript

Kaihan Krippendorff:  Well, Min, thank you so much for being here.
 
 I found your book and I just found it really fascinating, and I've been dying to have you on the podcast. So I'm glad that we could find time with you. Thank you.
 
 Min Jung: Thanks for having me here.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: So I'm gonna open up with the same 2 questions. I ask all of my guests. The first is just for us to get to know you a little bit more personally. I mean, I have nothing to do with all with your work. Could you complete this sentence for me?
 
 If you really know me, you know that.
 
 Min Jung: I once considered to be a Vijushan write it down. Rather than scientist. Really, in my twenties. Wow.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: And what instrument or what type of music?
 
 Min Jung: The drum? I played the drum. So I had a dream to be a rock star actually in my turn.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: What made you decide to choose science at least for now instead
 
 Min Jung: To me, I claim to realize that I'm not sufficiently talented to be a professional musician. I'm glad I made the choice to be a scientist.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Great. You enjoy the you feel you made the right choice.
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. First of all, I'm wasn't really I realized that I'm not really sufficient to it, Alan, you know, this professional edition, that's what someone those who are gifted. And I'm not 1 of them.
 
 And also, life as a scientist isn't as boring as you might image. Uh-huh. Bullet surprises, frustration, you know, overcoming obstacles, and sometimes you're a cut, you know. So full of excitement when life as a scientist for me has been really you've already. I enjoyed it.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: That's great. Yeah. I wanna talk more about Eureka and how that happens. And how we could all make that happen, but it sounds like you get many Eureka moments in your career.
 
 Min Jung: Not as many as I'd like to have. Right.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: But the high bar is scientists. For it to qualify as a Eureka. Okay. So we'll get into that in a moment, but I wanna ask the second question which is what's your definition of strategy.
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. For me, planning in the abstract domain that is setting a goal and planning how to achieve it using abstract concepts. And this would be a neuro scientist definition of strategy. You know the brain has many different systems. Or regions in charge of controlling different aspects of behavior control.
 
 So at the highest level, we have a strategy. Okay? So some brain regions are involved in setting a goal and planning behavior strategy, and there are other brain regions involved in planning, action sequences. And there are some brain regions, like, a moral cortex, in charge of a muscle contraction, so we're execution. So in other words, brain is like, consists of multiple brain regions in charge of strategy, tactics, and execution.
 
 So yeah. So the you know, the regions in charge of strategy, the highest control. For example, like a peripheral cortex, which is the foremost part of our brain. And then these regions very good at manipulating abstract concepts. They represent abstract concept and manipulate So they manipulate these concepts to set a long term goal and plan the strategy to accomplish them.
 
 Oh, this is a neuro scientist point of
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: fast training. So there's a mapping of, say, of the different phases of strategy 2 actual areas of the brain. Yeah. Okay. Am I thinking of it correctly and thinking of them as areas of the brain, or are there different networks or combinations because that's 1 thing I got out of reading your book, was the idea that activity happens in different kind of configurations or networks and not only in parts of the brain.
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. That's why it is so difficult to understand the brain. They're all connected each other. And when 1 drone vision is activated, it activates a whole bunch of other brain regions in a complicated manner. So scientists classify this as networks, different networks.
 
 Doing different things. So, for example, to use, like, jargon, like, say, Kaltiom network. The set of brain regions are activated when you are thinking carefully, and the serious network, like making you pay attention to something else. No. On and on and on.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yes. I'm so curious to get into that, and you talk about the default network mode and then sort of the task oriented mode.
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. Yeah. 
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Before we go there, I'd like you just tell me what you mean by abstract, you know, from the point of view of a neuro scientist. Well, so for example, you know, I we can kinda think of strategic concepts as I think are kind of abstract things. Like, right now, the strategist or trying to get their heads around the idea of a platform concept or an ecosystem concept or a mindset. Right? And I'm kind of thinking that what we do is we take these abstractions from other areas, and we're able to then translate that into our domain.
 
 And so I was wondering is that what you mean by an abstract concept or abstract thinking?
 
 Min Jung: In my book, what I talked about, the abstract is in the scientific definition, which is they get it from a specific object, you know, by simple like a generalization. When we talk about car, car is an abstract illusion. So not we put into specific particular car. Right? So car needs things like that, and then and you can represent certain rules, which is not something you can really see out in the word.
 
 Right? Yeah. So these things, we do it very naturally, so we take it as granted. But if you think about it, how that is achieved. How the brain attributes that.
 
 And what I propose in the book is that 1 possibility, neural network. There are multiple layers of neural network, like deep learning So as you process sensor information, higher and higher level neural network neurons extract abstract information. Something that is needed to the concrete example.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yes. I think it's fascinating. There is a graph in your book that. I wonder if it's related to what you are saying, but you kind of have these inputs that Understood. Get abstracted.
 
 Maybe you just walk it. I know that our readers can't see this image. If you when you buy the book, it's on page 01:09. Could you maybe just describe what this image is meant to or this diagram is meant to say?
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. There is an object recognition neural network where the lower level represents very, like, low level feature, like, a lie. Horizontal line, both line, upper level combined these, but it's like some edges or like, some contour, higher level, more and more. So at the final level, like, level 4, they combine all these low level features into a coherent notion, for example, edit. Okay?
 
 And these low level features are combined and pulled into certain boundary, it is an elephant. K? So Yeah. They're presenting elephant. Elephonthales.
 
 Yeah. That's an f. Right.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Right. Yeah. And I think that 1 way that that relates to strategy is that I think that when a strategist is trying to make sense of what's happening, there are these different components. There's blockchain technology and artificial intelligence and a new generation of types of people and global uncertainty and they seem like separate things, but to bring them together is kind of a higher order abstract concept is what allows you to make sense of it. I know.
 
 Min Jung: So you need the leaders need you particularly need the ability to have a prototype view. So extract the the current train and extract the what is needed to achieve a long term goal.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Just sticking with this idea of abstract thinking for a moment. 1 of the guests on our podcast, she wrote a book on creativity, and she said that creativity is combining things solutions are already known, but combining them into new things. Could you speak to that?
 
 Min Jung: So in the book, I talked about the default word network. And relax day sleeping when we are daydreaming, sometimes new ideas, sometimes great ideas, top up. And that is because during idling state, our brain is in a loose state. Induitary control is loose. So your normal activity the brain activity debates from your normal rate, and sometimes Many ideas are crazy, not useful.
 
 Some might be useful. So very 2 different domains. You sell them, combine them to end up because you used to create this group of, you know, thinking belongs to this 1 other. You know, a group of dots drawn to another growth. They don't mix up together.
 
 No more thing. K? That's in my normal life. But when you are in a relaxed state, when inhibition is losing your neural network can be so much euretic. K?
 
 DB from normal, you know, association. And many of them voice never like a dream, dreaming, sometimes absurd, you know, contents you should you dream about. Right?
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Right. Impossible things. They could have seen
 
 Min Jung: it. Yep. But some might be useful. K? And I think our brain has evolved because this is useful.
 
 K? So we don't know in advance which is useful. So our brand, I think, our to be somewhat random during your relaxed loop. So randomization of neural activity. So there's sometimes good ideas
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: I love that point that that we cannot know in advance if they're going to be useful. We need to have time in that relaxed state to generate permutations, many of which will be not useful. We're in a relaxed state. We create these permutations. A lot of them aren't useful.
 
 Like, what are the mechanisms by which then the brain decides which ones might be useful?
 
 Min Jung: There it is by learning. There is a innate value like food when you're hungry, water, when you're eat things like that. And as we grow and I know. Experience a lot of things like society, you protect you will associate neutrimally into something value. K?
 
 For example, if you money, money itself has no value. But you can exchange the money with something valuable to you. Some money now or, you know, gets value. So through learning, you associate value to lot of things. Okay?
 
 So sometimes, like, some abstract thinking which can solve the problem you have, then you can make a lot of money. You know, you learn how this is great. This has a very so you learn as a great learning capability. So by learning association, we opted to pay too many things. Great.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Just talks a little bit about those that state and those eureka moments that you know, that in in which we can come up with these eureka moms, some of which will be valuable. What kind of situations does it happen in and why?
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. You know, creativity, there are 2 different types. 1 there are many different ways to dividing creativity. 1 way of dividing is spentaneous creativity and deliberate creativity. So delivering creativity by focused reasoning.
 
 Of course, sometimes you think very carefully you can come with great ideas. There's deliberate creativity. But on the other hand, there is something called spontaneous creativity. So when you're relaxed, sometimes. Suddenly, great ideas may appear in your brain, like magic.
 
 And I personally experienced them many times. And so there are so called 3 b's of creativity. So 3 b's, this bowl, best, Bit and bus.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: So bad, bad, and bus. Okay?
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. Bats. You'll take a bath. Relax. Okay?
 
 So you have a, you know, problem. You thought about it. You can really ever, you know, solution to that, then just relax. Stop thinking and just relax. And sometimes, great ideas might come up.
 
 Or so bad. Sleep, you know, laying a soft bed and sleep. Sometimes, you know, great ideas may come up during sleep. And also bus, you take a break, go somewhere else. Okay?
 
 Get on the branch immediately. Okay. So you make your neuroelectrics stay into Deepgram 1, k, so that you could come over with a, you know, certain state. K? Yeah.
 
 So these are 3 pieces of creativity.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: I love that. Do you have any thoughts on how we know that we are spending the right amount of time in bed, bath, and buses, or that we are making enough time for that type of thinking in an organization?
 
 Min Jung: I think it's depends, and the modern days in many cases, people are too busy. They drive theirself bit themselves too much into work, work, work, work. And now with smartphone, we have a chance to make our brain relax. That means make our brain get into default model state, relaxed state. Our brain is sort of biased to process, like, sensor stimuli, too much.
 
 So our brain requires, like, processing information and some relax process information relax. So this balance is, you know, important to things, you know, including generating creative ideas.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yes. That's great. So it seems like there's there has to be enough time for the relax mode to create these ideas. That creates permutations. There has to be, I guess, some kind of than selecting of these ideas, and there's probably, like, some capacity or something that you have.
 
 I guess where I'm going, I'm kind of leading the question here, but I kind of think of an organization as being a marketplace of ideas. And individuals come together. They think differently together. They generate ideas. And then there there's also the capacity of the organization to consider ideas, and some organizations don't have enough time to consider the ideas.
 
 Is there any kind of analog to that in the brain?
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. I think that's a good comparison between brain and organization. Like, brains, list of neurons, organization, consist of people. K? So individual people, they could generate different ideas.
 
 And then, yeah, the whole idea of spontaneous creativity is increase randomness in the brain so that if some of the writing ideas you know, you capture that. Like, organization instead of the leader making whole decisions or, you know, maybe let many people generate ideas. Some many are probably not useful, but a few of them might be very useful. Okay? So this is a group creativity and a more emotional the group creativity is implicit.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: So let's stay with group tech creativity for 1 1 second. What can we learn from neuroscience that would help us with creating group creativity?
 
 Min Jung: The percentage creativity is all about letting non normal or diverse ideas or activity faster that. So there's sometimes, you know, a new solution which you couldn't think of. They come up. So I think the same thing is the organization where you pass through diversity. And then foster, you know, their free expression of the ideas, exchange of ideas, And many of them might not be useful, but some may be very useful.
 
 So I think the leader, it is important to use that you know, potential of the organization. Let their people express their ideas and then consider them seriously even though they may sing absurd.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yeah. It's interesting the yeah. To explore that. And I've got so many questions that we could go to, but I have a few kind of specific ones that I wanna make sure that we cover. So I'll jump around a little bit.
 
 This was a little bit out there, but I learned about place cells. In reading your book. I was wondering if you could tell us what a placell is. Maybe illustrate how what they are with regard to how different animals use them or have them bats and birds and mice. And then where I was gonna go into spatial computing from there.
 
 Can you just tell us what place cells are?
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. Play cells are neurons in the hippocampus, which is 1 drain region. All mammals have. And there, if you record a single neuron activity, that particular neuron is active only when the animal is you know, certain location, certain place. That's why it is called place.
 
 Of course, there are different sales spire at different locations. So by looking at their activity patterns, you know where you are. And this discovery was awarded in 2000 or 2 dollar prize. Called GPS system.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Wow. Like, a GPS system in the ring. That's what I was thinking. Uh-huh. And then in your book, you talk about that.
 
 Maybe bats have those more developed in birds? Could you explain why?
 
 Min Jung: So what I proposed in the pool? Is that land, navigation, animals compared to birds, birds versus like humans, rats. K? We are a land navigating animal. So birds to navigate to certain location because they can fly.
 
 They need control location and final destination. They go directly there. Okay? Very simple. Whereas land and navigating animals.
 
 We need to remember path pathways because if we go straight, they might be up ripper and the rod. So to be able to navigate in a in your, like, habitat. You have to remember pathways, and there are so many different pathway. K. Projectors.
 
 It is so difficult to learn everything by experience. It takes so long time. So I think what I propose is that brain has evolved. To simulate hypothetical navigation when you're sleeping and yet, when you are relaxed, when you are in the default mode. So it's like offline learning.
 
 Even though you don't even get we get in your relaxed in your brain. It simulates diverse trajectories. And evaluate, which is the best 1 from 1 location to another. Without that, it'll take, like yeah. Many, many, many years to learn optimal trajectory like in your neighbor.
 
 You move to the new location to learn to navigate properly there into the Yes. Any menu.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yeah. When I go to a new location or a city, I haven't been before, it's overwhelming because I'm thinking about so much. And I guess my spatial orientation isn't tuned. My place cells aren't helpful because I haven't been there before.
 
 Min Jung: Right? Like, few weeks you get used to it. 

 Kaihan Krippendorff: I wonder if as a leader then, you know, maybe there are abstract places that our people are in. So when a strategist people in the organization think that, I don't know where we are or where we're going. This is a new place a new environment. What's gonna happen? It can get very nerve racking, but if we can put them into mentally into a place that they already know.
 
 Well, we've been here before, or another this is like something else that you've experienced that it allows us to relax more.
 
 Min Jung: I think that a good strategy. I think 1 reason might be because spatial sense is special to us per animal. K? Competing other senses. So spatial navigation can be mapped.
 
 We have a brain mechanism, strong evolutionary origin. Of a special navigation. So if we take advantage of that mechanism, that is, as you said, mapping abstract domain into, like, a special they'll be as straight as our brain has been, you know it's good for that.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Which is why I think that spatial computing is so interesting. And I think
 
 Min Jung: a lot
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: a lot of metaphors that we use for strategy are space places climbing a mountain. Crossing a river, it is a metaphor that helps us feel comfortable about where we are and where we're going.
 
 Min Jung: Yeah. Great.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yeah. Excellent. So I've got 15 more questions. I have time for just 1 more. Is there a question that I didn't get to ask or something that you didn't get to say?
 
 Min Jung: So I'd like to emphasize this that the imagination, k, during, you know, relaxed day, k, spontaneous imagination. Everybody has that. Okay? It's so called daydreaming. Everybody daydreams.
 
 Okay? So it's as natural as breathing to us, which means everybody has a potential to be creating. So you don't need, you know, particular training to be able to imagine. K? Imagination is natural.
 
 So I think everybody should be confident. They can be creative. So the only thing is that they change your attitude. Okay? Don't be shy.
 
 K? Even though your ID may seem absurd, you know, express your ID.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Thank you. Ah, I love that. That is such an important message, and inviting everyone in the organization to tap into that natural creativity that is innate to their brains. Because it's that creativity that is gonna shape the future of our organizations in our world, and we need everyone's ideas. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us for writing this book and capturing so many years of study into your field, into something that is accessible to nonscientists like us.
 
 How can people continue to connect with you and learn from you certainly, we will encourage them to buy the book and read the book and listen to this podcast. Any other suggestions for how people can stay connected to you?
 
 Min Jung: I love receiving email if they have any questions. You know? You can send them email. Great.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Okay. Well, Minh, thank you so much again for taking the time to be with us and to unpack some of this for our audience. Thank you for being here.
 
 Min Jung: Thank you very much. I really enjoy doing this my pleasure.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please stop download and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.
 
 We'll catch you soon with another episode of Out Thinkers.