Speaker 1: 0:00

This is arrested with Mike Brooks and Atlanta criminal defense attorney. Damn Conway. Now that everyone knows a little bit about your dad as your background as a criminal defense attorney and, and how you got started in an evil world. On the other side is a, as a criminal prosecutor one time, uh, you know, everybody knows that I was a, uh, uh, law enforcement and law enforcement for over 26 years and we talk all the time and I talk all the time about the criminal justice system in America, you know, but what is the criminal justice system meant and, and who's in clued into criminal justice system.

Speaker 2: 0:40

That's a great question. What I would say is, and I talk about in my book arrested battling America's criminal justice system. Um, I talk about in the first part of the book which is called the beast revealed. The way I described the criminal justice system is as a beast. It's a beast for two reasons. One, it's obese beast because of its awesome power. You have the incredible power of the federal government and slash or state government behind a prosecuting people, arresting people, taking away people's rights and liberties and possibly throwing them in jail. Um, and so it's an, it's a beast with awesome power. I go back to what James Madison said. One of our founding fathers, he said that government, his definition of government was a necessary evil. A lot of people think it's necessarily a necessary evil. Exactly. And, and many people tend to think of it that way and that's okay because that's what it is. It's necessary but it's evil. But what makes it evil? What makes it evil as the incredible power that it has to destroy our civil liberties and throw us in jail. So it is a beast at the same time, it's also a beast because it's a bureaucratic nightmare and this is one of the reasons that really kept me in the system. It kept me working as a criminal defense lawyer all these years because we've been practicing that for 25 years is the bureaucracy of it. And it's not anyone's fault, it's just the nature of government itself. Government by nature is utterly and efficient and quite frankly a big cluster sometimes and what happens is no different. What happens in the criminal justice system is no different. What happens is any other government bureaucracy where you have a lot of inefficiency and a lot of problems and the dangers of people getting lost in the system, the rights being violated, all sorts of things,

Speaker 1: 2:37

but why we drove into criminal justice system. Would you say that the the bottom rung of the ladder, if you will, of this, of this criminal justice beast as you call it or the maybe the. The, the first foot of this beast would be the law enforcement officer on the street because he or she are the ones every day who are out there that are, that are answering calls for service that if you dial nine, one, one, you have a problem. They're the ones that are going to show up at your house. If you have an accident. They're the ones that are going to show up on the accident scene and unfortunately even with it's a fender bender, if there's damage or bodily injury that they're going to wind up giving someone a ticket and that is going to put that person into the criminal justice system. Or you might get a Dui and then you get arrested and that might be the first time you're really introduced to the criminal justice system if you had not been in jury duty or something like that. Where that too is a piece of the criminal justice system.

Speaker 2: 3:43

That's absolutely right, Mike, because so many people end up interfacing with the police first. It could be anything from a police officer at a traffic stop, right to a federal agent who comes with a search warrant wanting to search your business and look at your computers and files and these kinds of things. But it's usually at the investigatory stage and the police stage people become involved. So that is like the feet, if you will, or the, the, the basis of the beach. Um, and then, and that is many times a person's first introduction, uh, beyond that, then you get into the other players in the system and there the prosecutor and the judges and the defense lawyers, the jurors, the bailiffs, all the people that make the courtroom run, the court clerks, probation officers on and on and on and on and on. Sheriff's departments, people that run the jails. A, like you mentioned, a Dui, Dui school, people who run Dui school, bail bonds, sure. They're all part of this beast. It's not that the beast is, is evil, meaning that just wants to go out and wipe everybody out. It simply evil because it's a big fat, powerful bureaucratic monster. And if you get stuck in this system, whether it's for Dui or whether it's for investigation of mail fraud, when you get stuck in the middle of this beast, you have a hard way trying to find your way out. You're kind of like a mouse in a maze trying to find that piece of cheese and you need help and that's where a criminal defense lawyers come in. But also good prosecutors, good judges and probation officers, so forth and so forth.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Let me, let me ask you, you know, judges, for instance, I know just recently, governor deal last a week ago, two weeks ago, I'm appointed a number of new judges. One of them is, is, is a, is a friend of mine. I won't mention her name, who was going to be with the Fulton County Superior Court now. And um, how do you, when you are a young attorney, when you're going in, when you're in law school, do you think one day, boy I would like to be the judge who basically sits at the top of a, you know, of the criminal justice system and kind of whether it be on a, in state court, it be in a county superior court, whether it be, uh, you know, and in a federal criminal court court, District Court, a court of appeals, the Supreme Court. Is that something that young attorneys aspire to one day? Possibly.

Speaker 2: 6:12

I think all young attorneys think about it. In other words, all young attorneys believe, uh, you know, the all young attorneys, especially if there are any attorney that's in a courtroom, the, you know, the center is the, is the court and the judge and the right, they're the ones up on high, right above everyone else, uh, with a black robes and all that. And, uh, so of course every young lawyer looks at that and thinks, oh, one day, you know, that that's going to be me. I want to be a judge. So forth and so forth. Um, on the flip side, uh, I, this is my personal opinion. Sure. Uh, I just think there's certain people who are really meant to be judges and there are other persons who are meant to be. I can tell you for my myself, there is no way on God's green earth I will ever be a judge. And I have no desire to be a judge. I know where I belong in the courtroom. I belong at the defense table. I belong advocating my client's case. That's my role. But for other people, being a judge, just wonderful thing. Um, I do think that you have to have a certain temperament to be a judge. Um, I perhaps don't exactly have that temperament from the point of view that my job is to be a zealous advocate for my client. Right. I liked that job description. It's very simple. It's so simple and that's the whole job description. There's nothing else to it. I got to zealously represent my client. Yeah. And I liked that. I liked the, there's a perfection in that in a way. There's a crystal clearness in a way and I wouldn't want to give that up to be a judge to quite frankly, I like to hear myself talk and I believe on the most important for us as well. So, you know, if I had to be a judge, I to sit there and listen to all these other lawyers talking all day long and I'd go crazy. So no, I would not make a good judge.

Speaker 1: 8:07

And have you been in law enforcement for over 26 years? I've been to court in the court room many, many times and there. And there's people that I know that, uh, that comical. How in the hell did he or she become a judge? But then on the, on the flip side of things, there are some people, um, the judges who really do care, they care, uh, that the defendant is, is getting a fair shake. They also care about the victim who, you know, someone who may have been a victim of a crime. You know, there's, there is as their advocate as well. And uh, you know, and sometimes I think, you know, especially in, in let's say a city court like the Atlanta, you know, where you have judges that are, I mean, they're dealing with hundreds, hundreds of cases a month and they're, they're basically two to sort things out because it's the first time, first time I've ever, ever went to, went to a court. I said, good God, how does anything get done here? You know, because when you go into the criminal justice system, it seems very, very complicated. And some people may feel, you know, that, um, that law enforcement, our law enforcement and defense attorneys, that is, it's a big advert, Sarah relationship. It really isn't because, you know, after the case is over with, you know, everyone is there, you're there to present your evidence, you're there, present your case, it'll, wherever it may be, whether you're on the law enforcement side, whether you're on the prosecutorial side or whether you're on the defense side, you're there to present your case and, um, and for the jury and to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that I'm a person is either guilty or not guilty. And the judge is there as the, uh, I, I always said the judge is kind of the referee, you know, and, and the judge who I hope it has, you know, has a great knowledge of case law when it comes to different kinds of cases, whether it be a robbery case, a fraud case, you know, whatever is kind of a that he or she is going to is going to be the, uh, the fair arbiter of what is going on, on both sides, you know, and, and people here, you know, I object and sustained. Overruled. You know. And, um, I, I just think for someone, even if you've never been arrested before, go down, go down to a court house, sit in court one day and just watch what goes on. There's a friend of mine, Judge Andy, well, I don't know if you ever knew andy or not here in the city of Atlanta and uh, he's been on my show a number of times and you, and he's retired now. He had over 30 years on the bench. I think he now sometimes sits in and substitutes for our judgment may be on leave. But you talk about a guy who every single day what went to went to work as a judge. And, and I've, I've heard from a defense attorneys I've heard from prosecutors, police officers and people who have been on trial before that you don't want judge Andy. He's tough, but he's fair. I've been out of here.

Speaker 2: 11:15

I've been in front of Judgment Economy. He was fair.

Speaker 1: 11:17

Yeah. And I think, and I think that is one of the, one of the best things you could ever be said about a judge is that, yeah, he or she was tough, but they were fair.

Speaker 2: 11:28

I absolutely agree. And you know, it's funny because um, it's funny because when you look at, um, the court and we were talking about the courtroom and it being kind of a fearful place and all that. And it's before I talked about the judge in that situation, it's interesting. There are different than, as you mentioned, there's anything from a local municipal court to a federal court. Yeah. And I, I practice in all of them. So when you look at that situation, if the local municipal courts are terrifying in a way because there's so many people in so many cases and it looks so disorganized there the judge can make things better by being organized and by helping everybody through the process. Exactly. But the intimidation is not the charge or the austerity of the quarter or whatever. It's the fact that it's just looks like our big friggin zoo and you're in. There it is. Now on the flip side, when you go to a district court for instance, for instance, here in the north, we're in the northern district of Georgia and Atlanta, right? We get on one of those courtrooms. Your case is probably going to be the only case in the courtroom. Yeah, those courtrooms are enormous. Part of the intimidation factor there is that the courtroom itself is just plain scary because it's so big. It's magisterial if you will. Exactly, and the prosecutors are all lined up. The FBI's there, the bailiffs through there, you walk in, it's very intimidating. It is, but again, the judge can help set the tenor of that courtroom so that the accused or the victim or whomever Ellis is coming into that system who's not a lawyer, a feels comfortable and the judge can really do that with how he or she handles themselves on the bench and runs the courtroom.

Speaker 1: 13:14

Good style know the criminal justice system. Some people think it's so complicated, but when you. When you really break it down like that, it's. It's really not, but there's just so many tentacles to it that it may seem confusing to most people when we talk about due process all the time. We're going to explore due process. You're listening to arrested with your host, Mike Brooks and Dan kind of way on the new talk. What? Oh, six, seven.