SEASON 2, Ep. 14 Building Trust and Driving Change with Thom D. Chesney, President of Southwestern College (NM)

In this episode of Higher Ed Leaders, Thom D. Chesney, President of Southwestern College, offers an in-depth look at his 40-year journey through higher education and the leadership lessons he has learned along the way. Now in his third presidency, Thom reflects on his path from faculty roles to executive leadership, the influence of his humanities background, and the value of servant leadership and curiosity in building a strong campus culture. He explains how Southwestern College's mission to transform consciousness through education shapes every part of its graduate programs, including art therapy, counseling, and visionary leadership.

Thom also discusses the college’s strategic focus on sustainable growth, the expansion of its continuing education offerings, and the ways it supports students and staff through a values-driven model centered on partnership, empowerment, mindfulness, and love. With a clear commitment to maintaining a sense of belonging while managing growth, Thom shares what it means to lead a purpose-driven institution in today’s higher education environment. This episode is filled with insights for anyone interested in leadership, campus culture, and creating meaningful impact in higher education.

This podcast is sponsored by Viv Higher Education

About Viv Higher Education

Viv Higher Education is a Boston-based, female-owned comprehensive marketing agency specializing in higher education. With expertise in strategic planning, creative asset development, and media campaigns, we focus on enrollment-centric initiatives. Our approach is grounded in industry best practices, ensuring precision in reaching target audiences. We have extensive experience in marketing to diverse groups, including high school students, Hispanic, military, LGBTQ+, international students, and online learners. Navigating the complex landscapes of university environments is second nature to us, and we prioritize fostering collaborations that yield mutually beneficial outcomes. With a personable, nimble, and highly responsive approach, we deliver tailored solutions to empower organizations to achieve their objectives.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and Introduction
• 4:14 Southwestern College's Unique Mission
• 8:19 Graduate Programs and Future Plans
• 14:15 Strategic Growth and Challenges
• 19:25 Leadership and Institutional Culture
• 29:09 Advice for Aspiring Higher Ed Leaders

Transcript

 Tom, welcome to the podcast. It's so great to have you. How are you today? I am doing great, Suzanne. It is great to be a part of this. Thanks for the invitation. Yes, super excited to start out by hearing about your higher ed journey.

You are on your third presidency right now at Southwestern College. So can you tell us about your journey and how you ended up in the role you have right now? There'd be a delight to do so. I've, shared in a number of settings over the years what I call my circuitous journey through higher ed. and really when I reflect on it, and I spoke to this with somebody the other day, since 1984, when I started undergraduate school at Washington University in St.

Louis. I've been on a college campus every year thereafter. So. Depending on whether work study counts or not. I have a 40 year career in, in higher education. you know, my formal education is a, a degree in Spanish, which could not be a more, uh. Useful, an artistic kind of degree, from was UA creative writing degree in Minnesota, what is now Minnesota State Mankato.

And then I did my doctorate in, uh, modern British post-colonial literature. I'm an Orwell scholar, which is super relevant these days in the US politics and just in living room and seeing what's going on around us. I did that at Florida State. and then I started the traditional route of A, a faculty position at, Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington. So a small private institution, and met my wife on the music faculty there. And we went together after one year positions by design, went there to East Tennessee State University and both taught there and to Texas Wesleyan University, so regional public now to a private religious affiliated, Wesleyan institution.

Pennsylvania College of Technology in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. a two year institution that was affiliate of a public system as an administrative role, then was my first, I was an assistant dean, then, uh, went back to Texas and was there for quite some time. I was a dean and a provost at. large multi-campus community college, Collin College there.

Went to work at University of Texas at Dallas in a totally different role kind of downshifted, and became a accreditation liaison, an academic support services, uh, associate provost in that role was teaching creative writing again, and then that first presidency you've mentioned. That came along at Brookhaven College in the Dallas County community college system.

seven independent colleges, which today are now part of one Dallas College. was there eight years as a, president before going to a small liberal arts college? A slack at, Clark University in Dubuque, Iowa, moving out of Texas. Been doing that for four years before I took the first break.

I call it my sabbatical. I'd never had one in any of those roles that I'm briefly touching on. and did some discernment and listening and thinking about, where to go next more so than what to do. I. Lo and behold, in that discovery process, I, I, I rediscovered in some respects, Southwestern College here in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where I started as president at the end of July in  24.

So, differing roles, differing places, differing sectors, which really in many ways has enriched. Experience certainly, but also my perspective, my point of view, how I look at higher ed, how I look at it as the, you know, the, the spectrum of education. Students come in and out at different spots and, I don't sectorize much with public and private and two year and four year, I just sort of look at it all as it's all post-secondary and how do we work together?

What can we do? All for the, you know, the greater good, if that makes sense. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Southwestern College has this really fascinating mission to me, which is transforming consciousness. Through education. Tell us a little bit about that. That seems a little different to me, that mission than what we're seeing from a lot of other institutions.

And then the location in Santa Fe, is also really appealing. So what is, Southwestern all about and what was it in the past and where are you trying to take it for the future? Yeah. So, uh, you know, founded by visionaries, who you know, first. Looked for a space to found a library and bring some research and study of consciousness forward, back in 1976 and initially in Alamogordo, New Mexico.

And just a few years later, by some good fortune and good luck in finding a space and a place where we are to this day on Santa Fe's health side. Those founders saw that vision. You really come to fruition in, the, transforming consciousness through education piece of that. In what are the different kind of roles that would emerge out of those kinds of studies and where we are today?

a significant part of what we'll carry forward is in the art therapy and counseling. and there's even a school counselor track and then our PhD. Visionary practice and regenerative leadership is, new. It's a, three to four year program, while our first graduates this coming, November in that, but that consciousness centered piece is rooted in everything.

I said to someone the other day that, you know, Southwestern College is all in on AI and. Some of the ai, we all think of artificial intelligence, but AI for us also means altruistic intentions so you know, when you go into your learning and it's all graduate programs, master's degrees and the one PhD for example, and first look into study of self and understanding why am I coming into this and also what am I bringing into this?

So I'm thinking about being a therapist and I've been an artist, or I've been in other careers. Do you know, doing something else like that? I better first understand who I am. So courses in altruism, you know, we have a master's degree that's consciousness in action as well. Just focus on that. So, imagine for anyone who's maybe had some experience in therapy or counseling and, and I have my.

Myself, it's hard to navigate higher ed for 40 years and not some point want other voices, want other guidance as, as to how you do that. But all of our students, for example, will as part of their experiential learning, their portfolio learning, that they, they go through, they'll, they'll go through counseling.

Therapy as well to really understand and unpack some things. As one of our graduates said last November, my first graduation, you know, when she came to the stage and they each actually share a little something as they crossed the stage. Just a beautiful ceremony, an expression of consciousness centered learning.

she said, I learned so much and I let go of so much. So that's a transformational learning experience. That's consciousness centered learning in a very, focused nutshell. But that's what we bring to the work that we do with each other. it is very common here for us to weave into just a regular conversation, a meeting conversation, anything we're doing, talking about our core values of service, empowerment, mindfulness, partnership and love.

Never been at a place that boldly put forward and said, you know, one of our core values is love. So imagine Suzanne going, you know, interviewing and having someone say, how do you see love coming forward? You know, as our, president and you modeling those, values, for example. it has to be natural and authentic and, and, and be a part of what you do because I.

graduates of ours, for example, they go into the workforce. They all want to have jobs. They all wanna be part of a, maybe it's a private practice, maybe it's part of an agency, a healthcare system, whatever it might be. 96% of them, we've got, the statistics are in the field doing what they came here to do, but they're doing it in a very different way.

When they sit down with someone and give their space to a client's space, they can say, I've been in your shoes. I have that. That's different in some cases from some clinical programs for very similar degrees or degrees with the same names. and I love that. gosh, does it feel good to, to come into that kind of energy, that kind of space on a daily basis?

Right. Oh my gosh. That's so compelling. And so can you just help us understand the, the audiences? So you're mostly focused on grad, but what is the breakdown? Do you have undergrad programs also? We have no, we have no undergrads. Complete, uh, graduate focused institutions, master's degrees, and the one doctorate, we have a new, Master's degree coming online next year for its first cohort and transformational teaching, learning and leadership. And that will be widely, you know, appealing to educators in different roles of different types. For example, still a consciousness focus though as well, to that.

But when I say we're like a graduate institution, well, we are, that's what we're identified and that's what the higher learning commissioner accredit us at. We are thinking about all of the same things goes back to my experience that we talked about as well. We're looking at what are enrollment trends.

You know, someone says to me, do you care about the enrollment cliff? oh, you don't have to. You're a graduate. Says, oh no, that's event horizon. What's happening out there? What's coming to us? What do we have to pay attention to? And there are some things happening in our own state where we're located as well.

although you know, about two thirds of our, our students are online since the pandemic. We flipped from totally on site to online and on site, and now it's significantly changed us. But the attention to behavioral health, brain health, healthcare is so intensified not only here, but in other parts of the country that I.

We're having to come forward and really say we have some solutions for that. We have a means to that. And, you know, and it starts with what we talked about, being conscious and centered and bringing that forward, so that our graduates bring that forward to the people that care for. I mean, that's really differentiating.

I mean, that you don't have the problem that most institutions have, which is who are we and what do we do? And how is that? Yes. So You have that figured out. and you have even a really strong focus on grad. I guess I'm curious, I would just love to know sort of how many students total and are they mostly from the southwest or are you, now that you're two, thirds online, you're drawing them from all over the country?

Are there international students? And then also are you thinking about potentially breaking out of grad, given the enrollment cliff and all of that, and maybe even doing professional learning? Are your students typically adult learners who are already in their careers or are they fresh out of undergrad?

Put some meat on the bone for there. Sure. You're setting that up. It's like when I was a kid and played T-ball, the only way I could hit a baseball is if it wasn't moving. You set that so perfectly for me. We actually already have a continuing education arm, which is really vital, especially here in the state of, New Mexico for providing licensure and relicensure, continuing ed.

So those CEUs that you would expect and certificate programs, as well, like Ecotherapy, for example. and psilocybin therapies, which are, you know, emerging as well. right now. Gotta bill, we're following in the legislature to actually approve those, those therapies in the state of New Mexico.

But understanding how those things work and some community education as well. we're talking about, Southwestern College in Santa Fe, New Mexico. There's a real interest here as, well in those consciousness studies. And some people would like, you know, an entry point into that.

So our new Earth Institute. Which is part of, Southwestern is a, vital education arm to that. And those programs fit in and dovetail beautifully into the graduate programs, that we have. So that professional school within the school is there. Very importantly also is our tier in a way of a counseling center, so a training and education arm of the college.

So think of our therapists and counselors needing those clinical settings, practicums. Internships, those kind of roles that have to be a part of the accreditation of those programs, as, as well, they can do the, bulk of that if they're onsite students right here, we arrange for all of the offsite and distance students for that to happen in the states where they work as well.

But onsite tier Nova Counseling Center is seeing over 500 clients a year, 7,000 appointments. Right here in a community that is vastly underserved for behavioral health services. So we're an educator, a community partner, a lifelong learning arm as well. Some of those D differentiators you're talking about.

you know, we're really in the midst of bringing that forward in a way is to about smart growth. How do we bring that to other audiences? So on the one hand, the pandemic forced our hand and here we are. 48 states, very neatly and tightly. You know, take our program so that our graduates there can go right into practice, take licensure, sit for exams and things like that.

then there are a couple of others where we help the students make sure, if you're gonna practice there, you may have some other things to do because of what the state requires, for example. But by and large, growth happened to us and now it's strategically managing and thinking, uh, About that. so that ratio of 70 30 online and on site, that ratio could very well stay the same as we continue to grow with more students in those program, aligning that with growth in faculty, academic and student, you know, affairs, support. Our students as graduate students, this may sound familiar to anyone who would be listening and talking about undergraduate, all have mentoring, coaching, academic support, individuated to their, needs.

So they're checking in with them regularly. We're taking some of the best practices, high impact practices of undergrad. and this predates me. I'm just coming in and saying, well, let's make sure we have the resources to continue to do this. Taking those best practices and doing it to the graduate level.

'cause graduate schools. We wanna unpack that a little bit, have some of their own retention, persistence, and success issues. You hear it used to be kind of the joke of all the abds, all but dissertation, you know, graduate students that are out there, never quite finished, couldn't get, you know, through, something.

We're not about that. The need is too great for the types of graduates that we, you know, have come through our educational experience, that we don't wanna lose someone along the way. And actually on the front end, You see some of that as well. We are not in the business oh, let's get another student into a seed or into a cohort.

The interview process, the experiential process of just coming into Southwestern matters as well. Because we don't want someone to come here and then say, I didn't know what I was getting into. I didn't know this was consciousness centered. I didn't know it was gonna have to unpack myself before I could unpack others,  you set up so many balls on the tee there for me to hit. I'm not sure I hit 'em all. I may have overdone it. you did absolutely hit a ball. because we were curious about is there a sort of a professional learning element, but you were talking about just sort of the general charge of growth and is that sort of when you came in as the new president, what you were charged with.

And to me, whenever there's. Charge to grow. That's an entrepreneurial endeavor. So curious, where are you looking to grow and how are you doing that? What hurdles do you have to remove to be able to meet those growth goals? 

 This podcast is sponsored by Viv Higher Education, a Boston-based, woman-owned full service marketing agency. Higher ed is a force for individual and societal transformation. Colleges and universities deserve entrepreneurial partners who bring custom solutions and are all in. Viv specializes in driving brand awareness, applications and enrollments.

Learn more@vivhyatt.com. That's V-I-V-H-I-E d.com. Back to the episode.

So we have put into place, and again, we're gonna 48th into our 49th year.

Right? 



 



some things are happening for the first time. And I, hear myself saying this all the time here, in Santa Fe. So many things have happened wonderfully here, sort of organically. The things that have just sprung forward have been an opportunity. We often say, you know, it just, it comes from the heart.

We talk about our mission and values, for example, part of my coming in and the, the ask of me was to bring the head and connect the head to the heart. So bring some structures that would make sense. So if you're gonna talk about growth. Let's have a strategic enrollment planning, you know, working group and have that be as integrated and inclusive.

So the things I talked about, who's at the table as we plan for those next many years, and it is the clinic, it is the, the continuing ed arm. It is, you know, a faculty and our provost, you know, role. It's our library and educational services. So much of that's gone Digital. You've gotta have that there.

It's it, my gosh, do we have to have a strong IT backbone to support all these things we do And it's marketing and it's enrollment services and at a small place with, you know, about 300 students right now, only 180 or so before the pandemic. So just growth that just happened. But that's exponential when you think about it.

Right? you know, if you take the example of an 1800 student to 3000. It's the same thing, right? It's like, wow, it's that, that's a lot of growth. You coming in sort of as the aftershocks are still registered. Yeah. Oh, what happened here? Yeah. And, and so that's, those are some of the conversations like, we didn't see this coming.

We didn't know, thank goodness we were able to flip that switch and, you know, nobody flipped the switch like that right in, in the pandemic. But to move forward, great decision making by my, predecessor president in a. Provost who came in with distance learning skills and an IT goddess that is what we call her, who had been building the infrastructure So now we can strategically sit and think, Hey, what would this look like? What else could we be doing? What are the other audiences and how do we take, it's funny, third institution I've been a president at, where in the external world, they often hear, oh, you're kind of a best kept secret. We shouldn't be.

Considering not, that's not good considering what we're doing, how we go about it, the demand for it. But, all right, don't let best kept secret though. Turn into mass produced not as experiential, depersonalized. So do, we want to grow. Yeah, we want to grow and be and be smart. Part of the Al Altruism aspect of putting others before self is also putting others in the position where they can receive from us the kind of you know, transformational educational experience we would hope they would have.

So let's do that, but let's do it in a way that sustains the very best of how we did that for 180 students. 250 now, 300, we have no number set yet, but say across all those programs. You know, growth to about 500 made sense. Embedded in that will be the people, the fiscal resources, the campus based resources, all of that we have to think through.

Yeah. All of that fits together and it's pretty rare you get to do that. I mean, you had the, the exponential growth because of the pandemic where you were able to accommodate it to a certain extent because you. Had online available to you so you can scale maybe class sizes, and one faculty member is able to serve more learners, but at some point that's gonna hit its ceiling and now you have to plan.

Mm-hmm. For, okay, if we're gonna continue growing, do we need additional faculty members? Degrees and courses and how does that, revenue wise, all hang together and is it grad that we're growing or continuing ed or something else, or are we integrating them? 

To be, you know, talking with you or, or anyone the part of it that I get to do, which is sometimes messenger storyteller, you know, cheerleader, fundraiser, all, all of those different, different elements. Right. to be doing that through the lens of the success that we've been having to be a small and compact campus.

We have six and a half acres. Some of it is undeveloped in entirely. We're carrying no debt. Stop down right there. How many conversations does anyone have with any institution carrying no debt, even if it's smart, really smart debt, knowing how it's structured and so forth? We don't, and it allows us to do this thoughtful exploration of what does the next 50 years look like, because we absolutely believe what we do is vital to the wellness of our community, the wellness of the world.

it is, you know. Changing lives, you know? and it's transforming consciousness through education. Yeah. Carrying that forward though, in a resilient revenue streams and in a way that retains. The authenticity of why, the why of our existence. That's the challenge.

And it's, it's a fun one to take on. It really is. For sure. And what is the culture like on campus? Because a lot of higher ed leaders that I talk to are focused on, we need to do things quicker, we need to do things, a little bit more nimbly. we have to be. More comfortable making decisions with imperfect data, sort of those entrepreneurial leadership principles, is that relevant at Southwestern College too, or has the culture always been really nimble and ready to move with the market, if you will?

It's a, I would, I would say it's a blend of, of the, the both. I'm, I'm glad you mentioned. The second part of it is always been kind of nimble. Size helps sometimes with nimbleness, Where you don't. Necessarily getting, you know, all inputs from all corners, but the other part of us being, you know, being built and, you know, living our core value of partnership.

A partnership relationship with colleagues means really trying to think through if the individual, you know, decision is yours. You still need to think how does that ripple out impact others? Even knowing if this is my decision to make, we still have those moments of where we think about that.

'cause that partnership piece, how we're in service to each other and, and to our students, to the entity itself, the college itself. so the space is definitely there, For that, the group that's working right now, for example, on complete redesign of our website, we haven't done it in 14 years.

And Suzanne, you and I are talking about things like, if someone comes to our website, what do we want them to feel? We want them to feel like this is different and that they need to say, I want to know more about this class or this course, or about your college. whatever it might, be.

so. We've been able to move quickly on that because we can quickly get people together to say, you know what? We, we know we can improve, do better. And then sometimes it's just a case of Let us know how we can help. And that, that is part of the culture is, that expectation that people will come forward from all walks and all roles and say, I've got an idea.

Because many of my colleagues, we sometimes call ourselves unicorns, you know, have other experiences, other work, that they can bring in and, you know, inform a part of what we're doing. That's not necessarily part of their role. And I've worked at plenty of places where stay in your lane is the best way to get paid, maybe even get promoted here.

We need people to speak up and we expect it to happen. And I've been in some. Incredibly rich conversations, personal conversations, where something comes forward, a crucial, difficult conversation at the end of which we say, isn't it great that we're able to have a conversation like this, and we're not leaving wounded or wondering or not feeling?

We have all the information that we need because we are able to pull all that out there without judgment. if it feels a little bit altruistic or a little bit utopian, it's not, the altruism part is there of course, but it is a culture of share and be heard, and that's not always the case. I think it's safe to say in higher ed.

Pretty safe to say that. Yes. how did you, when you first got there as the new president, how did you get. Together with faculty and maybe even students and staff to build that trust and, hit the ground running. Is there anything specific you did that you could pass on as advice to Sure.

Your presidents? So, one thing I'll say is some of that was built before I got here. So, the interview process was unlike any I've ever been a part of. I mean, in terms of just the layers of it, the transparency of it. I sat in sessions, two different sessions with students alone and different sessions because the distance learning piece, right?

Different times of day and formats. Before I ever came to campus for a visit, where I was being asked, how will you bring our values forward? Tom, you seem to have experienced at different institutions with enrollment challenges or whatever. Tell us about that. What might be your vision for us real deep dives into what have you learned about us in your exploration of Southwestern so that.

Often happens on the walk and talk and share and learn tours, and I don't dismiss those at all. I've been part of plenty of those. When you're on campus, when you've been announced, sometimes with great surprise to an institution and the chancellor is the president is, you know, so and so, and half the room or more is finding out for the first time, who's this now?

And they're Googling on their phones. There was none of that here I knew I was coming in to have a wonderful. Preceding President Anne was going to be here to be a director of the program. She had developed towards the end of her tenure, and I would have her as a resource  but all of that was upfront.

I started getting to know, and feel, you know, the stories of the place, the culture, the history, the readings that I were given were front loaded and focused on mission, values, history, our founding, but also that, From president to president here at Southwestern. there basically been, the changeovers occurred when it was someone has taken us to this place where we need to be and you'll come in and, then it mean was like that my, one of the phrases I left, sometimes leading means leaving.

That's kind of been the institutional history here of someone saying, you know what? I got us here. Am I still the right president for where we go next? No. Time to go on. Really rare. Also in higher education have, can you be reflective in your position, whether it's president or anything, and say, I think it's time for me to think about, something else.

So I knew a lot and then was, you know, of, of what to kind of expect and felt like some of the trust building was happening during that process. Arriving then on campus and getting into conversations. And I attend the, the monthly staff meeting, for example, just with everybody else. And it's not my meeting.

I can contribute. I might have a share. We may do something together as a collective experience, but it's to be there and be present. this has been the easiest college by not. Yeah, I'm gonna say easiest college by far. To continue something that started back in the nineties when I was a faculty member.

And I have to this day, and that is to say to someone I'm the only reader, recipient and responder to the emails that I get. That was really hard at a community college with 11,000 students and, you know, part of a big system in Dallas, for example, but I always sustain that. No chief of staff, no one with reading privileges or anything like that at Southwestern.

That really matters if somebody. Drop something in or pops by my door or whatever the case may be. they're expecting that they're meeting with you. They're talking to you. it's an an interesting one. Yeah, it's an interesting one. I haven't heard a president bring that up to me before.

and it does have implications That is it accessibility and trust and just that personal attention that really matters in the culture as well. Is that kind of why you, you care so much about that? Yeah, absolutely. I've always thought that, you know, I wasn't trying to make it a, you know, personal difference maker.

It's, it's really, it's a cultural thing. What is the environment that you create for the communications that you're gonna have to have, the relationships that you're, going to build and knowing that are always gonna be challenges and disagreements and things like that. But when those happen in a space of trust and mutual respect, civility, other things like that, and really a mission centered values, you know, centered experience.

It's just palpable here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Walking in this morning and, spending a little bit of time with Eric and Alan are incredible ground crew, and just talking about how the campus is coming to life. Leaves and buds and you know, the lilies are coming up and in a previous life I was a landscaper too, but we were having that same conversation through that same lens of our identity, you know, transforming consciousness, right?

That happens when you come into a space that makes you feel good, that you care about. And they were saying, here's what's coming up and here's how that maps out there as every bit a part of delivering on our mission. I. as faculty, and staff as certainly as I am, and to know that we can have that moment together and talk about that.

anytime that it happens, like I did this morning for 10 minutes, wow, that hits you right here. You just say that's belonging. And belonging is a big part of what we talk about in higher ed right now for our students, for our employees. If you don't have that sense of belonging, are you gonna stay there?

Are you gonna succeed there? And will, your institution be successful? Probably not without a sense of belonging. I love that so much. So you've had this incredible career. You started out as an English, major it sounds like, and, that has had maybe less relevance than, some incoming, English majors.

Hope, but you still have those roots, right? The, the deep care about humanity and I think a lot of the themes that you're working on in your presidency track back to that Humanity is liberal arts foundation that you had. Would you agree? And the way you lead now, roots back to that as well. And the institutions that you've worked with have been different.

But there's always been this common thread of just like radically human is what I'm getting from you, you know, as a leader. Yeah, I think it, probably predates that some of it is Suzanne. It's like, how were we raised? what were we exposed to? What did we get to do? Did we get to fall on our face and make some of our own mistakes without someone immediately picking us up, whatever.

I give some credit to my parents. I've my K through 12 teachers and, and just some of the values oriented kind of experiences I had that, or even before your hire journey fully began. Yeah. Already already formed in many ways. Yeah. I didn't know the term servant leadership until many, many years later.

then somebody kind of identifies you that it seems like you're really a servant leader. It's like, you're like, sure. Does that mean? And so it's different. Didn't come out of textbooks, didn't come out out of class. It just came out of kind of how you, grow up. But I, you know, I've had this tagline in my social media for more than a decade goes way back.

And I, in the story of my own life, I'm not the main character. So I'm a writer. I, and I, and I still do a lot of, writing right. But I really believe in that and way before I ever got here, for example. And, you know, talking about altruism and putting others before you, it's like, that is, that has been my joy is to see my success comes through someone else's success or being successful or, whatever it might be, I'm just a helper and, an imperfect one. Always learning, lifelong learning you right. But, yeah, that humanities based liberal arts experience that I had, I had a lot of experiential learning. Now I'm at a place that bases it's. It's transformational, learning inexperience that I, I just lucked into some things by where I went.

Sure. Who I got to know saying yes a lot when somebody invited me into a space, you know, and said, Hey, would you like to try this and say yes. You know, a lot of DIY learning, I have a son who's 24 years old on the autism spectrum, separate graduate degree that my wife and I earned by getting to be a part of his life, having that gift of him.

Teaching us when we didn't know where we were being taught, or we didn't know what we needed to know, that kind, those kinds of things that informs them. What I bring as a leader, as a teacher, as a learner. I love it. if you think about others who are currently on their own journey towards higher ed leadership, maybe they have an intention to one day be a president or a lead, you know, as a vice president at an institution, I.

Is there any advice you would give them? I think there was just a lot of advice in what you, said, or we could, we could say, wow, that's really smart. we should try the same mindset of we're not the main character we're learning through others or leading through others, but anything else that stands out to you.

Yeah. Maybe a couple of things I would add, to that, is, you know, if, if you're on that journey and are aspiring and saying, I might like to try this or do this sometimes, You can't wait for the invitation for a seat at the table and or ideally, a voice at the table as well. I encourage the, mentees that I'm working with and some of the coaching that I do on the side to invite yourself.

It is remarkable how often, and this is not just for me, it's for many of my colleagues, just reaching out to someone else and saying, I'm curious about what you do in your role as, and it may be something totally different from yours. I talked to CFOs, for example, that is not my expertise. I'd like to know more.

Can we just have a cup of coffee? You know, don't jump into job shadowing, but connecting with a lot of the Indian information I gave. You know, gained on advancement. For example, fundraising came through. Working in public radio and TV is a part-time job. For example, just taking on something else, exploration, do some of those explorations to get a taste of whether or not.

You want to do that, you wanna move into those roles. So making connections in that way, sometimes that's a cold call. You respect somebody that you see on LinkedIn who's really saying things that resonate with you. Well move up from liking or saying it's insightful to, a very thoughtful response saying if there's any chance we could talk, you know, through InMail or something like that.

And it's stunning how often that person will respond and say yes. Even sometimes say at also you'd like to meet someone else in that. So it's, it's, it's using those things, just erasing some, maybe some imposter syndrome and just putting yourself out there and saying, I'm as a curious person, as a curious colleague, and connecting in that way and that can do a, that can do a lot, especially over time if you develop something.

and the other thing I would would say is insist on wherever you are on being able to take. Part in professional development, whatever that looks like. So I attend a lot of webinars and I'm in the chat and so on. That tho those kinds of things, like that connections happen there as well where someone realizes this person just asked a great question.

Who are they? Where are they? I wanna talk to them some more. Or in a, you know, face-to-face, in person conference setting. You know, be the person who sits at the front of the, the, room that's always half full at concurrent sessions or the keynote speaker. Nobody sits in the front row. It's a great place to take a picture to show you we're there and post it on social media, but it's also the position to be in afterwards to thank someone for what you learned to maybe make a connection there.

Those are small things that can lead to far reaching relationships. So it's, Things like that. I guess a lot of that's kind of social engagement relationship, but that starts with outreach. That starts with an ask, starts with. Hey, my name is, yeah, it's the level of boldness required that maybe people might naturally shy away from, but that without that, it's really tough to get access to the next opportunity or be on people's radar.

Right. I love what you said about reaching out specifically to CFOs and advancement leaders, because those are the two areas for me as a marketing enrollment person, where I'm like, I have a lot to learn. I have a lot of questions, and I feel sometimes ashamed. I don't know all these things, but you inspired me just now to maybe just say, Hey, can you explain to me how this works?

And I'm sure I could find a few people to help me out there, so thank you for that. Sure. No, and, and like I said, you know that the ability to have conversations like this happened beyond a podcast. They happen for someone who maybe listens in and says, I'm intrigued by, but you know, oh, they're, I'm sure they're too busy.

'cause they have a podcast to respond. Shocking how often that's not the case. The number of cold calls that I make through email, I mean, well constructive, thoughtful use of someone's time, but just saying they're not copying and past. Yeah. I saw you at this time do this, didn't have a chance to connect. I just wanted to let you know how important and valuable that was to me.

The number of times that a response comes back from that. I'm still, to this day, at this stage in my career, really surprised sometimes 'cause considering who I might have asked or just, shared gratitude with and then get a response, and now maybe there's a space for some thoughtful dialogue. I learned a huge.

I wanna just say I learned a huge lesson from my marcom director in Texas, very first presidency, very first semester when I was doing that listening tour. And I was asking people, what do you do? How do you do it? All that? And at one point along the line, I said, I have a curiosity question. And then I asked whatever it was, and she told me afterwards, you know, it's also great.

Take feedback, take it, take guidance from others who are somewhere else on the org chart or whatever, and absorb it. Take it in. Meredith said to me, that's it. From now on when you meet with other people, when you go in, you know you're wearing the title of president, and when you say, I have a curiosity question, it changes the room from how do you do this?

Why do you do this to, I'm curious. So I lead from curiosity. I've always been a curious person, but I didn't realize that, just articulating that can make a difference. I think that's something I would share with others too. Be curious, but let people know you're being curious. Yeah, I think if you are at the president level, it changes the whole dynamic because you have the humility to say, I'm curious and I wanna learn from you.

That's really rare. So first of all, that's amazing. And then if you're not yet at that level, or even, you know, a leader, I don't even have a leader title. It changes the conversation too, because if you can say, I'm curious, I wanna learn, rather than, I'm trying to hide what I all don't know yet. That's equally important and level setting, so I love that so much.

So inspiring. Thank you for your time talking with me today. Oh, Suzanne, you're so welcome. Thank you for inviting me. Easiest yes. I've ever had. Thank you so much.