Good Enough Isn't

Founder & CEO of Forever Human AI, Tracey Cesen

• Patrick Patterson • Season 1 • Episode 3

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A wide-ranging, human-first conversation about scaling AI responsibly. Tracey traces her path from nursing to programming to CEO, explains why “good enough isn’t,” and lays out a practical playbook: pick the right problem, bring people along, then layer AI on strong workflows and platforms to unlock real innovation—not just busywork.


Our Guest

Tracey Cesen — Founder & CEO, Forever Human AI. Former President/CEO in professional services; earlier roles across healthcare, finance, and ed-tech. Advocate for human-centered tech, product thinking, and pragmatic change management.


What we cover

  • Origin story: from nursing labs to coding and product leadership
  • “Good Enough Isn’t” as a leadership lens (and why a little healthy pushback makes teams better)
  • Human-first tech: what AI should automate, and what must stay human
  • Platforms > one-off pilots: how workflow/data foundations enable GenAI value
  • Why 95% of pilots stall (and how to be in the 5% that ship and stick)
  • The “AI as a utility” model (quality–speed–cost) & what that means for builders and buyers
  • Marketing implications: YouTube’s rising importance, AI disclosure, and audience trust
  • Tracey’s “why”: help people be more than they think they can be, and make new mistakes


Resources & Links Mentioned

Connect with Tracey

Platforms & Tools

Hosts


Takeaways for Operators & Leaders

  • Start with the right problem. Strong pilots solve meaningful problems, not just novel ones.
  • People > tools. Adoption comes through excitement, not enforcement.
  • Focus on platforms. Platforms like ServiceNow unify workflows and data, making GenAI possible.
  • Think like a utility. Models are like electricity: optimize across quality, speed, and cost.
  • Avoid vanity pilots. Ship useful tools, iterate quickly, and make new mistakes to learn and improve.

How to Support the Show

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  • Share this episode with someone wrestling with GenAI adoption.
  • Rate & review if it brings value, helps us reach more listeners!
Transcript

I fully believe we're about to enter a renaissance, a golden age of new business ideas and new things that help humans and do all of those things. So it's super exciting. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. My name is Miles Biggs and I'm here once again with my cohost Patrick Patterson. Hello. Hello. Since you're listening to this podcast, you need to know that we are driven by truth sometimes the hard truth. We believe it's imperative to be relentless for results because if you're not your competitor is we're obsessed with how to be better every day because that's what our customers deserve. And if you can set aside your ego, if you can truly be no ego, then we are the show to help you go all in because Good Enough Isn't. Our guest today is no stranger to the idea of Good Enough Isn't. Her LinkedIn profile highlights an impressive growth trajectory starting as a programmer analyst passing through several consulting and vice president titles onto president CEO and now founder and CEO of her own firm Forever Human AI. Please welcome to the show, Tracy Cesen. Love being here. It's awesome. You're the LinkedIn failed to mention that she's also known me for 17 years. That, that should be the main thing on my LinkedIn. That should be friends with Patrick Patterson. Under, under Education. Under Education. No. No. I don't think that's it. I think maybe under projects special. You have a project, special vol volunteer. Very special experience. That's right. That's right. It, it has been special and it has been a project. It's good to have you here. Glad to be here. Yeah. Um, before we dive into what you're doing today, when I was prepping for this, I searched Google Drive for Tracy Zimmerman. Your, your prior name, because I remembered we did this once before and the timestamp of that was 2021. Okay. Which made me laugh. That was our first level agency summit. I think I had been here for all of three months. When Patrick was like, Hey, I want you to come co-host a fireside chat. We're gonna do this. And I was like, okay. You know, so I freaked out and hyper prepared. And I had this huge sheet of all your stuff, and I remember one of the first things you asked me was about my title. Do you remember this? Yeah. And I still get ragged on it this to this day. 'cause I was like, hi, I'm, my name's Myles, I said, what do you do here? He said, well, I'm the director of strategic projects. And you looked at me and said, what's the difference between a strategic project and a regular one? And I was just like, in front of everyone. Yeah. I was just like, I don't really know how to answer that right now. And people still sometimes just rag on me for that. So I gave, it makes me laugh. I gave, I gave Patrick a hard time too. I mean, if I recall correctly, I think I also gave him a hard time. I, I mean, when, haven't you given me a hard time? Yeah. I'm just trying to balance it out. I mean, it forces everyone to be better when you're given a hard time. 100%. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, good enough. Like not good enough. Good Enough Isn't, I think is good enough isn't if you don't give people a hard enough time. Look at you dropping the, the podcast name right, right at the beginning. I love it. I believe in it and I love it. So I've known you for a long time, but your career actually started before you met me. Hard to believe. It is super hard to believe. Right. Uh, so, you know, I think it started kind of in a most, I don't know how many people know this, but I believe you were looking at nursing. Mm-hmm. And then you taught yourself to code, uh, back in the day. So take us back in time, all the way back and explain what was pulling you in such different directions at that time. And, you know, those are two very different, uh, walks of life. Yeah. So my career journey really started in high school in many ways. I decided that I wanted to learn computer programming and um, when I was in high school, actually they had this thing called a business college, and it was like separate from the college prep track, which is what I was on. But I looked at those business college, or sorry, I looked at those business program, um, classes and some of them look interesting to me, which included keyboarding, which is probably the skill that I've used the most in my life, right? That was in the business college. It wasn't in the college prep, which is kind of ironic. It is anything about today. And I ended up taking a class called Introduction to Business. Um, and then I bounced to taking computer programming. So I took three computer programming for three years in high school. Um, I was, by the time I graduated, if not junior year, I was the only woman in the class, um, which was, you know, fine. Um, and when I was looking at my next steps in my career. Computer programming also wasn't kind of the slam dunk career that it is now, though, this year. Now all of a sudden it's a terrible career, but I'm sure it'll be back. Um, and you know, nursing was very practical, you know, and so I remember I had this conversation with my comp sci teacher and he said, and I was going back and forth on what my major should be, and he said, well, you should just pick computer science because you'll get a job just 'cause you're a girl. And so I picked nursing. So you picked nursing. I mean, I was probably 50 50 anyway, but I was always, you know, I definitely have a little bit of a, a chip on my shoulder. I'm a little bit of a rebel or whatever. But I did take those programming classes and I also had this, um, unusual opportunity when I was in high school. So I was in the gifted class and they rolled out this program that you could get a mentor in the field, right. That you were interested in. And I was interested in, you know, compsci, whatever. Um, and, um, but a, a friend of mine in my class was already working as a developer. He was like, you know, your classic boy genius, kind of like a. Patrick Patterson. Don't say that now on that day. And so we thought we were super smart and I'm sure we were actually very annoying and we went to the teacher room and said, Hey, like can I be the mentee? And he will be the mentor. And they gave you like 0.15 credits. You know, we thought we were gaming the system, but it was like 0.15 credits, you know? And she was like, okay, fine. And actually it was amazing for me because unlike somebody in the field, this kid guy friend of mine actually had time to teach me stuff. And so a couple times a week he would come to my house or sometimes I would go to his house and like we rebuilt machines and he taught me programming. And so I kind of had this like coaching experience and I think that's like an important kind of career. I think that's an important career trajectory thing Turned out to be, you know, even though, you know, when I finished high school, I decided to go to nursing school. I also took a nurse's aide program when I was in high school. So I started working as a nurse's aide when I was a senior in high school. And so I was like working in a nursing home and doing some work inside of people's houses. So then when I went into my, um, nursing program, I, um, actually really struggled with, uh, anatomy and physiology lab. Really? Yeah. See Patrick, you love this story. I was like, so I was a really, I did really well academically. I had like all A's and B's. I didn't really have to study that much. I was already a nurse's aide. I was really interested in the field and in general, I was a good student, you know, I went to a good high school. Um, but anatomy and physiology lab requires an insane amount of memorization. Like all at attendants, all the ligaments, all the bones, how they connect, right? And I'm a terrible memorizer always have been horrible. I mean, everybody has their gifts. That is not mine. And so I ended up having to repeat that over the summer. And I also, so I got a C minus in the lab. I got an A in the class, but a C minus in the lab, well, you couldn't progress unless you had at least a C. So to take it over the summer ended up getting a C minus again. And so that's actually the true story of how I made my pivot. Um, the other thing that was happening is, this was, this was 1996 and this was, um, Bill Clinton was in office and Hillary was doing the healthcare reform stuff. And a lot of nurses, I don't really know why now, because obviously like it was a long time ago, but a lot of nurses were being laid off. Mm-hmm. And I was like, and so they, people were getting outta nursing school and becoming nurses', aides. Well, I was like, what is this? I'm not doing that. I'm already a nurse's aide. I know. That's not what I wanna do. You don't make enough money. I can't. That's not gonna work for me. And so that was the other thing that pushed me into computer science instead of like, you know, obviously I could have taken another year and stayed on track or whatever. Yeah. But I didn't. Well it's, it's an interesting combo to have, you know, the, the human side, right. And then the, the, the, the, the machine. Yeah. Right. We're having, we're having these debates and we're gonna get, we're gonna get to these debates a little bit. Yeah. Human versus machine, uh, as we go. But it's, it's, you know, I started my career, well, my educational, uh, career in psychology. Yeah. And then moved into math, computer science. Right. So it's interesting, um, and I can say as working, working for you both, for you and with you, it was a very short period of time. I worked for you for a period of time now with you. Uh, you are always still today human first. Right. And I love that about you. Oh, thank you. Uh, and I love that your career started, you know, human first and it has continued to evolve while you figure out how to put the machines in. So we, we fast forward, you were at a big, big company and then you took a leap. Uh, you went to a smaller company. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, what was going through your mind when you made that jump? Um, so that was like 2015. What was going through your mind at that moment? And um, did that feel like a big risk at the time? Uh, you know, to go and, you know, uh, you know. Get out of your comfort zone of what you've had built for a, a very large company for 10 years and, and move into something else. I mean, I, I don't think it did. So I spent then, like a few years I worked for Siemens Healthcare, I worked for Bank of America, I worked for education management. So I was in like big more corporate settings, although I was typically in like smaller, more innovative groups. Um, which I think influenced my career directory as well, in the sense that I was still able to get things done, which lots of times in corporate super hard. Yeah. But that said, even being in those types of roles, I wanted to be able to get more done. So I, I saw the move into professional services and into a smaller company, which just a way to actually get more work done. Like I really am driven by, um, I really wanna help people. That goes back to like, I wanted to be a nurse. Why? 'cause I wanted to help people and, 'cause I was like 18. I thought that's what nurses did. Nurses are the only people that help people. Me, nurses and teachers, you know. But obviously I see businesses a ServiceNow as. You know, being more grown up. Um, and so I was very frustrated by not being able to get things done for people. Like I would see these opportunities, I would have these ideas, or my team would have ideas, and you get blocked by these things that like a lot of times don't seem very sensible. A lot of times they're not. Yeah. Um, so it didn't feel like that much of a risk at that point. I think I also was considering starting my own company at that time. So then when I joined an existing company, it seemed relatively low risk. And I was just, like I said, I wanted to be unleashed from the situation I was in, which again, was amazing. And for a corporate environment I had a lot of freedom. Yeah. But being able to serve many different clients through many different types of projects was like very energizing for me. So, no, I think I, like basically, I, I bet on myself and I figured, well, what's the worst thing that happens? I can get a job somewhere else, you know? Yeah. Well, and then you became very quickly the first. And only woman, CEO of that, that company, uh, which is amazing. Congratulations. Thank you. On that. Thank you. And did you feel any kind of like pressure or sense of responsibility being a woman leader in the tech, uh, you know, world and, um, you know, how did you, how did you, uh, grapple with that and were you met with any, you know, headwinds? Uh, because of that, that company was founded by a husband and wife, co-founder, so they always had women in leadership. So in that company, I definitely did not feel like it was, you know, unusual for me to be in a leadership role as a woman. Um, you know, a lot of times it's a little bit challenging when people say like, what's it like to be a woman in technology? Like, well, I've never been anything else, you know? Um, and so I, I think the reality is, like I was saying, I was the only. You know, women in the computer science class, back when I was in high school, I was pretty used to it. Um, and you know, I think in any of these things, lots of things in life are about perspective. Um, and I think for me, I was like, well, people will remember me 'cause I'm the only woman. I have a different perspective. I always did have that really sort of human experience, even like a business focused lens in the sense of like, how do we help our internal or external customers? So I, I was kind of different from other people and I saw that as being good 'cause I could bring something unique. There were a lot of, particularly when I was in a more technical role, there were a lot of developers that were way better developers than me. I mean, they just did it for the love of the sport, right? They're up all night, what did they do on the weekends? Contribute to open source. Right. You know, like, I think, you know, the type I, I literally, you know, it's funny, you know, I don't know if you probably don't know that. Like, it's one of the reasons I didn't want to. Remain a coder. Yeah. It was literally like, you know, I was good at it, but I also was like, you know, in my class, and I don't know, there were like, there are not that many, uh, you know, compsci folks doing cryptography and, and ai like where I was. And so there was a small group of us and there were the, the top five students or whatever, right. Which I was able to be a part of the top five students. But those other four, like literally, they didn't have, you know, they didn't have a partner, they didn't have like a girlfriend or a boyfriend. They, uh, didn't they, they didn't do any activities outside. Right. And so they did a lot of, you know, they, they, they coded. Mm-hmm. And like, it would be like, I would be competing against, and I'm sure you felt this too, right? I would be competing against people that were coding 12 hours a day coding all night. And then you, you, you're like, I have three or four hours maybe to be able to do that or contribute. And it, it, it was, and I was like, man, is that gonna be the rest of my life? Is that like literally gonna be the rest, always playing catch up, like, always like, am I gonna sleep? Like, 'cause like I wanted to do things like, you know, I was in musicals and I had a girlfriend, like I was in a fraternity, like crazy things for college kids, right? Like, these were crazy things. I, you know, I, I only in the comfy department. Yeah. And so, and so that's why I, I, when I, when I, you know, left college, I was like. Man, I just don't, I don't wanna just code in a cubicle with, you know, in a room with no windows for the rest of my life. Right? Like, that's not, that's not me. What I realized, Patrick, you might've been able to do that. I realized no matter how much time I spent, I would never be as good as those guys. I wasn't driven enough by it. I didn't, and that's not, 'cause I'm not driven and, you know, I am, I just didn't love it enough. For me, it was a means to an end. And that end was how do I help my customers? How do I help my teammates? How do I help my colleagues? And, um, I just, I literally could not compete. Maybe you could have, but I couldn't. But I had the, it got harder and harder. It got harder and harder, you know, especially senior year and like graduate classes. Like, it was, it was very difficult. Yeah. But now you have ai, so you're Yeah. Now, yeah, now we all have, I mean, me too, but now we all have the best coder that has ever existed in our pocket. Right? Like, what? Right. But you are coding and I'm really still not. But anyway, um. So I had a unique experience or a fortunate experience when I was early in my career, when I was at Bank of America. Um, so I was in this like team that was like a cross-functional team of like marketing, um, technology. And design professionals. Um, and so my dev team would always push me to go to the meetings with marketing and I would come back and I'd be like, Hey, you guys can have a turn this time if you want. And they were like, no way. And I thought I was doing this super awesome special thing. And they were like, please continue to do the terrible and tell us what they want and please. So, and I'm like, would I wanna give you credit so you should come to the meeting? They're like, no, no, no. They literally did not wanna go to the meetings. And so I realized, I'm like, okay, and this is like really, if you think about it, these are early days of tech. There really wasn't maybe very early in the west coast, like the concept of product management and stuff, but it really wasn't here. You barely, business analysts were like functional people. There weren't product people. That's right. That's really where I was leaning, but I didn't know that terminology. I was like, okay, I'll just do whatever I need to do and when I have to, I'll come back and write code and when the rest of the team will let me, you know, do more of the interfacing with the business and documentation. So I didn't have to do as much code. 'cause again, I was not as good at that as that. Do you remember the moment where you found a product manager, job descrip. And read it for the first time. Do you remember? 'cause I remember it. I re I think we were in Web Strat. Yeah. I remember this moment where it's like we, we were, we were both together. I think we were like, and we read a product manager job description. We both looked at each other like, oh, that's what we do. We do. They know me. They know me. Well, we, I mean, we have these roles that we called producers, right? Yeah, right. Web producers. I mean, I that maybe we should cut this 'cause we're gonna sound really old, but I actually think it also shows like the pace of the industry has changed so much and matured so much. That wasn't that long ago. I know. It wasn't that long ago. It definitely wasn't. And so, um, so yeah, I mean the, the evolution of product is awesome, right? 'cause it, it is, you know. Kind of a com It is that combination of understanding the technology and what it can do. Of course, some companies, they make you code, some they don't. I wouldn't wanna go this way, but anyway. And then, you know, really understanding the go to market, which involves understanding the customer, understanding the needs of your business. So yeah, those roles. I think also, I think those are great for kids these days to have that opportunity to have a role like that. It's very similar to our roles as CEOs, right? Like you own a lot, you know. Well, and you've had a chance to now build a product. You're took another leap, you know, after, after, uh, uh, taking the leap to be, uh, do you go from big to a, a smaller organization now taking a leap, going from that organization now, starting your own thing? Yeah. So tell, tell me about that experience and what, what, you know, I think you had a moment where you could choose what you wanted to do and you could look at the world and say, what does the world need? And you have, again, a human first approach. So you take, take all of that experience that, that we just heard about and why did you start what you started. I always wanted to start my own company. I remember reading the Motley Fool online back when I had my job and I was like, 20, you know? And like reading about how people would start jobs and reading books and things like that. But I didn't really know how to do it, you know? There was no chat GPT to just build me a business plan. And even then it's like, just 'cause you're like, okay, I need a business plan. I was literally like, okay, then what do I do with it? You know, I guess they're like, go to a bank. I'm like, what? You know? And so I was like, but I, I know how to be a developer, you know? So I had done a quite a bit of freelance work when I was young, so I think that that sort of lit that fire. I didn't know how to make it into a business. Then I had the opportunity to be more of a hired gun type, um, president and then CEO at my previous company. And that really filled in the gaps. But I also realized as I went through that process, I had like my own thing inside of me. Like, I love that company. I felt very fortunate to be trusted in those incredibly critical roles as I did in like all the roles I ever had, you know, but they weren't. Mine. I had just had like a slightly different lens towards things and I thought, like, I know lots of people that own and start businesses, right? And I was like, well, I think I have something a little bit different that I wanna bring to the world. And so, and I, I was also like, if not now, then when, what am I gonna wait till I'm like actually retired? And then I'll take like my big resume, be like, what are you doing? You're 70. You know, like, I mean, and hopefully I won't have to do that by then. You know, Tracy retired is a funny thought. Yeah, that's probably not gonna happen. I know my husband always, like, you heard definitions when I retire, I'll start a company. Correct? Yeah. Correct. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's like my leave of absence, like, you know, um, I can't help it, you know, I'm always just thinking about, I, I don't think I'm an inventor. You know, there's people who really love like a lot of like. Dreaming. I'm not really that I am, I'm more of a pragmatist. Right. I see like the parts and I wanna bring them together into a solution. I think that's why, like similar to you, we have these backgrounds that not everybody has. Right. And you just look back, you know, you look in the rear view mirror and you're like, oh, I'm so glad I had that experience when I was 25. Yeah. And they'd be like, you couldn't have planned it going forward. Like people would say, what's your five year plan? I never had one. I would feel really dumb. But anyway, so I love having my own company. It is hard. It's, it's to, to go back to that a second, it's like the slum dog millionaire moment. Yeah. Yeah. Where you, like, you've realized you've lived your whole life to be in the role that you're in. Yeah. Right. I, I've, I've literally, I was like, a few years ago, I had that moment I was like, oh wait. I'm taking pieces of every single goal. Single thing you had. Yeah. I have e I've ever done, including all the way back to when I was, you know, 15 and working full time. Right, yeah. And bringing that all together into one spot. And, um, that's really, it's really fun. It's really exciting. And then to be able to pass that on to other folks is really, really fun. Exactly. I was gonna say, that's a lot of what drives me too, as being an employer to give people that opportunity to bring more of themselves to what they do. And like I thought for a long time, people have a lot inside them and they have all these hobbies and they know all these things. And then they go into work and we treat them like a cog in the wheel and they say, oh, well you're a senior developer and you're assigned to this project in this industry. And like, here's some of the specs and like, you know, let us know when you're done. Or, you know, I'll just say, can you get it done right now? Or whatever, you know. When, but when you actually talk to people, they have so much, you know, you talk to, I actually feel like the average good engineer is a musician also. I mean, that's almost like saying I'm not a musician. So that was probably dead giveaway. I was never gonna be a really good developer. You know, people have these interests, you know, you have all these kinds of things that come up. Everything from like they love hiking or they love hunting, or they're a super amazing swimmer, or they coach their kids' sports or you know, their family member has a critical illness and they're like coding an app on the side to try to help with that. Like people are doing so many interesting things and I think employers, like a lot of employers don't get that out of people. I do recognize it's harder as you get bigger, but I still think it's possible. So I think that goes back to the human side. Like my driver is the people. I want to make the world a better place. My toolbox is I'm a check person and. Uh, kind of user experience design type person, like a empathy person. How you use those tools to help people to grow their businesses, to raise money if it's a nonprofit, to help students succeed if it's in the education market. And then do it in such a way that like the people are taking care of and at the end of the day, they shut their laptop or go home or whatever. And they don't wanna kick the dog. They don't wanna scream at their wife, they wanna go for a walk. Not like a super stressed out run. No, I'm just kidding. They wanna do their hobbies. They have, you know, the patience and time to spend, you know, doing their kids' homework with them or whatever, you know, and that's like. It. It's a way, as an employer, we can actually make the world a better place because then each one of those people like Miles, you're nice to, you know your family and then your family is nice to everybody else or you Right. You know, pick up the trashcan, the blower for your neighbor. And then that guy comes, oh, this is a pretty nice thing. And like it just, that's how it spreads. 'cause it spreads both directions, right? Yeah. When we're difficult to our employees as employers, then they don't have that emotional bandwidth. And depending on their maturity, they may be being a real jerk. And obviously that's not totally your fault, but I think it's a way we can make the world a better place. And then tech, going back to from healthcare to tech, what I realized at some point is like, oh, this is way more scalable. Like there's part of me too, because I did do that direct care for so many years. It's very special, you know, it's very intimate. Um, you know, people are unwell, you know, um, or they just need help. And that's very humbling for people. Like, nobody wants that. Nobody wants that to happen to them. And so it is very special. But to realize, well, you know, I was able, in my previous business for example, um, we, you know, partnered with Providence Health and built their whole mobile app and then they were able to divert all their patients that were non COVID during COVID through that app from a triage perspective. And they were able to get the care they needed, you know, or even working at Siemens Health Healthcare, right? You just have a lot more scale with technology. I do think that like the tech industry sometimes has a tendency to lose touch with people. Yeah. Like by default actually. And I think that is part of what I always brought to the table. Unless I'm around a bunch of people, people then I'm like, come on people, we can fix this with technology. You know, you have to kind of when in Rome but. So this, this notion of, of the people side of the technology side and how helping people to not want to kick their dog when they get home at work, right? Like that's really excites you. Um, the people side when it comes to the work itself and you have an AI company, what's one thing about AI that's really exciting? You right now that you see the, the technology itself being, you know, a game changer for good? I mean, I love ai. I love technology. I think it's amazing because. It can leverage people so much. There's so many things that more like opens up the opportunity for people to be able to do things that they couldn't do before. You know, I made my joke that, you know, maybe going back to software development, I won't, don't worry people, I'm not gonna go back to it, but, you know, it makes people who maybe in the past really had ideas but didn't know how to make them happen. You know, it can be a bridge even if they don't build the whole app, right. It can help to bridge the terminology, um, so that they can speak with technical teams. I mean, it's helped me tremendously in starting my business. I mean, there are lots of things I knew, um, but I definitely had, you know, meaningful gaps and it's been super helpful. Um, I think, you know, with companies like this is really what's always driven me, whether it's AI or tech in general. Going back to having jobs not be miserable and actually be places that people can live out their human potential. It has the potential to automate or just make a lot faster. A lot of like mundane routine tasks, right? Like it's like you're clicking here, here, and here. It's like you essentially are an app. Yeah. You know, and you're maybe like not as reliable as an app. So I think it's a huge enabler to people and I think that we need to go in with that mindset of what is now possible. You know, it's totally true that there's operational efficiency to be gained, right? And that is table stakes for technology and always has been. It's, again, it's not different about ai, right? But what it's really about is the possibilities of orientation of what can I now do for my customers that like literally wasn't possible for, like, I have some of these ideas from back when Patrick and I were in the education space that I'm like, I think you could build that now at scale. You know, like, I have these ideas and somebody please, someone need you, steal my idea. And they'll be like, yeah, this is dumb. But you know, I had this idea of like, we would kind of build a profile on you based on, you know, stuff. The student would opt in, right? Obviously if they don't want it, that's fine, but kind of having this ongoing sort of inspirational content or, uh, content in their user experience tied to. Their why, right? So if my why is I wanna prove to my kids that no matter how old you are, you can finally go back and get your degree. If that's my why, then it would show that, you know, if mine's really, if someone else, another learner is saying like, well, what I really want is to, you know, get off the floor and be up in the C-suite, then, you know, their content can be geared around that. And just think about what's possible now that, like, you couldn't do that at scalable before. Uh, correct. Yeah. I mean, think about, remember when people would, we would do these designs and they would say, these look really good, but we don't actually have images like that, that requires too many images. This is a real conversation I client like, not 10 years ago, you know, so, you know, I remember, and still a lot of marketing departments do this. It's like we have three personas or five personas across our entire customer base. Like that's basically boiling down people into five categories. Right? Right. Which is very hard to do. Which is impossible to do. Yeah. It's literally impossible. Right. But like, that's all you could do. And there's still like to, to this day. That still happens, right? Mm-hmm. And so like we are big advocates here of one-to-one mm-hmm. Personas. Mm-hmm. Right? And that's exactly what you're describing. Mm-hmm. Because everyone is a little bit different. Everyone has, and, and you know, if you have first party data and you have the ability to, to, to consume that and look at it and then feed that in, then you can really add value to someone's life in a way that they want. Right. And I think that's, that's super, super important. Um, so would you say today, you know, you, you are, you're huge on AI and automation, right? But you're also kind of worn against, uh, you know, overuse and the, the lack of humanity that could drive, be drive driven from that. So do you think you're more excited or anxious? No, I'm totally sitting today. I'm, oh no. I'm very excited. Yeah, I'm very excited. Um, you know, when I warn that, I just think, you know, people's perspective dictates a lot. I said that earlier, right? So it's like, what's your mental model? What are you trying to do? Do here? Are you trying to create a GI that can then tell us all what to do based on all this data we have put together from the past? Right? Or are you ultimately trying to help accelerate new frontiers that I believe that should be led by humans? I feel very strongly about that. That's why I called my company forever. Human ai, right? AI is. Last, right. Humans before ai that was on purpose. Um, and so I think that, you know, these are extremely sophisticated tools. They're amazing. We're trying to make them like our brains. And some places we're really successful. Some places we're laughingly like unsuccessful. But there are tools to serve us. So I'm very optimistic about it. I do think that there's a real, you know, if I have a message, I want you to help get out through this podcast. I think that it takes leadership to open up the mind and say, what's now possible? Yeah, right. Be generative about it and don't do the easy stuff. 'cause if all you're doing is like automating your current process, again, table stakes. I'm pro it, but it's like, okay, then what are you gonna do? Right. Where's your innovation in that? And maybe you have to automate it first to open up the financials to be able to do the experimental stuff. Like, great, I get that. But like I, that would think, it'd be pretty sad if we thought we like arrived. Think of, we were just talking earlier. Things have changed so much in even just 10 years in like the past week. Yeah, I know. Probably since we've been on this call. Yeah. Like 17 models. We missed so much. We missed so much on XYI don't even know if I can afford to stay on this podcast. Correct. Yeah. I'm missing like so much. No, I have to, I have to keep up. You'll curate it for me. It's fine. Uh, yeah. We'll have AI curate it for you. Yeah, true. So, um, no, I think, I think that's right. Right? I think it is, it is very, very exciting. But you're working for, or working with, as you know, you are a leader in the space with one of the titans in the space mm-hmm. ServiceNow. Mm-hmm. Right? That is, you know, kind of really, and it, it, it's a company that's been around for a while, but like, you know, now, now that we're in at Super Bowl ads, right? Mm-hmm. Like this is, this is big time. Um, so, you know, talk to me a little bit about. You know, how you are taking that, that idea of, hey, like there's simple automation, then there's like real automation, and then there's with ai and then there's genic ai. How are you thinking through that, sitting in your chair, working with some large organizations and kind of being on the forefront of it? So I've seen in my career over and over again that when you're trying to get technology adopted and trying to get things done, the barriers are always the same. Like the weights might be a little bit different depending on what you're trying to get done. Um, the very first barrier is, are you picking the right problem or opportunity? I mean, you know, are you trying, will like, does this project even make sense? Like I think innovation teams die a thousand deaths, not ours. Um, because they're working on the fringes on something. It's like no one cares about that, right? You need to try to pick the right problem or opportunity. And there are many frameworks to help with this, right? So it's just sometimes it's like pride and obviously AI can make it faster, but if you already don't question your own DI ideas, then you have a different problem, right? So picking the right problem. Secondly is really the human piece of how do we get people on board? How do we bring them along? At what point do we bring them along, right? There's definitely a place for skunk work. You don't wanna go to the all company meeting, especially in a big company and say, we're doing this cool new thing. Like a bunch of people actually try to like shut you down, right? And there's gonna be a few people that you probably don't want that'll try to transfer to your team. Like, you know, you gotta nurture those ideas and and move them forward in stages. And then finally, really is the technology piece. But I've said this for a long time, right? The technology is very mature compared to people's. Well, readiness to adopt it specific to ServiceNow. The reason why I picked it, especially in this age, I mean I started the company a little over a year ago, right? So we're in the age of AI is I saw over and over again running, having a data science practice at my previous business, people would come in, they would have these great ideas of how to use data science, and they would turn into. Data projects, right? People couldn't get to their data, they couldn't get to their information. Um, they didn't have the right information. Their workflows were terrible. So you get in and they say like, I wanna AI this. It's like, okay, well what are you guys doing? It's like, well, we don't really know. You know? You're like, I wanna AI this. Yeah, no, I mean, like, oh man, it's not that new. You know, there was these, you know, more, it's just, it's just much more, you know, popular now, right? Yeah. But, and so it's the same set of problems, but the thing about a product like ServiceNow is, you know, you're already in these core functions, right? You've either figured out your workflows or it makes it really easy for you to having the workflows happen there that naturally collects the data there. And, you know, I mean, you know way better than I do, right? But like, AI feeds on data. It has like the more data has right. The better it can be. So by having your workflows in ServiceNow, then you're naturally collecting the data, right? You gotta set up your users, you gotta connect to back office systems that are maybe your systems of record there. And then just by use of the product, you're building more and more valuable data. And the product is easy to adjust. So if your workflow's not very good, which lots of times they aren't, you know, or you find something out once you launch, it's easy to change it, right? Versus like a more custom software, which I've done a lot of custom software. So the other thing I thought about ServiceNow. What was really interesting was just their expansion, right? So they have these multiple modules, right? So they started in it and were really kind of like creating all these different products for it to be like the ERP for it. So you can manage your assets, you can manage your projects, you can manage your service desk. But now they've moved on and they're doing customer service modules, right? So actually have customer facing data, which I always think is exciting. I love the customer, the end customer, um, you know, risk and compliance data, not as maybe sexy and exciting, but certainly necessary to have. Right. You know, and then, you know, HR and other areas. And so as they get more and more of that information, and then ServiceNow does have a really strong technical foundation. It is one database. And if you know enough about SaaS platforms to know that's not always the case. Yeah. Right? And so, and you know, every one of those hops costs something. And so that was where I really saw, I told, um, you know, early on in this whole AI thing, you know, I went to breakfast with a common friend of ours actually, and he's like, what should I be doing about ai? You, he, he's like a small business owner, and I said. You need to be talking to your platform companies about what they're doing about ai. I was like, please don't do anything about AI right now. I mean, yes, use it. Use chappy for himself. Yeah, productivity wise, but I'm speaking specifically to the corporate side. I'm like, you need to push your vendors and see what their AI roadmap is and make sure that they're making you know, progress. If not, you need to look at other products like ServiceNow would be a great example, but if you are, you know, it is hard enough for companies to roll out packaged platforms, nevermind. Go out and build a lot of custom stuff and generally speaking, if something's available that you can buy it and just turn it on. You know, that's what most of us wanna do. And then save your custom dollars and your more innovative, you know, never created before. Things for things that are really strategically differentiated for your business, then fine go build. You know? But that really should not be most things and for a lot of companies it probably shouldn't be anything. Yeah. And so, you know, it's an interesting. We're, we're in an interesting spot, I think, where you have. You know, a, you, you talked about a change management process to get, make sure your staff and your client staff is completely up to speed in using this. Like, and excited, and excited and excited. That's the human part, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's the, that's the, and, and so you just described change management, right? It doesn't matter what the technology is, um, which is, I, I fully agree with. Uh, and so that's producing a lot of. You know, a lot of what, what looks like automation, but is not really automation. Right. It's just productivity enhancement. It's like I was using the internet and now I wasn't using the internet. Now I'm using the internet. Mm-hmm. And now I'm faster because I don't have to drive to the library, right? Mm-hmm. So like that's not true, like that innovation. Mm-hmm. In my opinion, it's like it's change management and it's getting people up to speed and that's great. And I think there's a whole nother level of innovation that that needs to happen where we now look at the capabilities of large language models and the automation platforms that exist and the, the data that exists and say, how can we at scale? Right. You know, you, one of the things I love that you said is you, you have this. Sense of wanting to help humans, but being a nurse was two, one-on-one. Right. Not that scalable. Yeah. It's not scalable. Right. I'm pro nurses though. Pro nurses. Yeah. No, 100%. Yeah. No. And like I could never do that, right? That's absolutely, yeah. You shouldn't. No, I should total respect. Right? But like being, if you have the capability, like you have to then, uh, run a business and build a business that can help people at scale, I love that. But you know, that starts to get into much bigger projects and much, you know, uh, more expensive. And you need tech technical experts like you and your team, but like. I find it very interesting. I'm going on a little diatribe here, but like, I find it interesting. It's like we now are, you know, I think the, the, the mistake our friend, our, our mutual friend pro probably could make, would be going to someone who's never done those scalable solutions before. Mm-hmm. And say, great, now go launch N eight N and connect 17 platforms and bring in the data from our ETL and connect to our SQL database and go scale this across 250 people. It's like, what are you doing? Like that's, that's not someone, that's not something that a single person who just discovered ChatGPT two, two years ago can do today. Right. And so, like, I think it is important to understand there is an entire subsection of work that needs to be done mm-hmm. At the large. Scalable enterprise process level with this new technology. And that's kind of where you meet and you come in and you intersect, but how hard is it today to have, to have that conversation when you have a CEO who maybe doesn't understand, it's like, well, I can just have my, my, my, uh, marketing person, just type on a b type a few things on a keyboard and everything's gonna be done in Chachi PT now. Like, so how are you dealing with that, as in your, in your role? Well, I mean, it goes back to like picking the right opportunity or problem. Opportunity is a more positive way to say it. Like, sure, should you be solving this problem first of all. But I'm not really new to that conversation. Right? We were building mobile apps when those were new and people were like, I need a mobile app. And I would be like, for what my sales team would be like to convince them. And I was like, no, I don't think they should build a mobile app. It doesn't make sense. Oh, I love that. Right. And so, well, I mean, my, my, my foremost goal, right, is to be, you know, helping people. And I don't think it helps people to have 'em spend a bunch of money they shouldn't spend. Right. Um, and so I, I always have a like yellow to red flag. When people come to me with a solution, they come and they say, well, I need an LLM for this. And I'm like, well, why? Right. And so, so you're, you're one of the people that ask why? Yes. Right? Five times. Oh man. Oh man. Five, five times the five why's. I mean, and obviously some people they're like, well, I went through this process, this process, this process. And then you're like, okay, cool. You know, yes. Let's figure out how we can get this done for you. Sure. But for a lot of people, I'm like, well, have you explored these other options? Or going all the way up to, well, what are you trying to solve for? There you go. And sometimes these, I mean, I wanna understand your, what you see in the marketing world. 'cause it's like very similar, right? But if something's hot, and then you just wanna be able to go back to your boss and say, I did an AI project. Right? Like, just be honest with me and then I'll help you find something to actually be useful and not too expensive and not make you look stupid. It's kind of like, if somebody's like, I remember when YouTube was new to being able to put ad units on there. You and I worked together. Right. And it's like, we just wanna be able to say we had an ad on YouTube. Okay. Okay. Cool. Well, let's figure out how we can do that and make the most of it. And not, I have a hot take on YouTube. I don't know if it's a hot take. It's probably everyone, everyone who follows the world probably is thinking about the same thing. But like YouTube's second largest search engine in the world. Right. And, you know, driven by content that is not easily AI generated. And then you have, uh, regular Google search, which is the, you know, the largest search engine in the world. Um, so Google owns the top two and that's continually to be AI is taking over and we have generative search and, um, you know, zero, zero click searches now happening. And so I believe Google is going to be pushing towards YouTube in a way that they can generate ads and revenue through the YouTube platform, which is the second largest search engine. And I actually think as. Text and copy becomes completely commoditized through ChatGPT, that video is going to be more important. Right. And so, like, it's a really interesting aspect to be, to be in Google shoes, to have 85% of your revenue come from ads on a thing, on text-based search, right? On text-based search. But then to own the second largest search engine and say, okay, now YouTube is going to be really, really important. So, um, you know, I, I think every marketer today should be thinking about how can I be on YouTube? How can I start monetizing on YouTube? How can I learn the platform? How can I test what works and what doesn't work? I think it's gonna be super important for the future of brands, um, especially in a world where generating this content in real time, like we're in person. Mm-hmm. And that's on purpose, right? Yeah. I, I, I want to do. A podcast in person, because this is the only thing that AI can't replicate. Yeah, totally. You know this in person feel. Right. And eventually we'll have, yeah, we'll have, eventually we'll have cameras and we'll have, uh, you know, videos of all this. Now we just have this really nice audio, which is great. But, you know, I think, anyway, I, I, I think YouTube is going to be really, really important. And I, I, I don't know, I don't know how you feel about that in your world, but, you know, that's one of my takes from a marketing perspective of, of where we're going. I've been thinking a lot about this, and I think what you're really talking about is to what degree or how will we accept non-human generated content? Because I do use YouTube a lot and you know, there's been a few times recently where I stumbled across a short or a video that I get like 10 seconds into it or 20, and I'm like, this is totally ai, AI generated. Yeah, yeah. It's happened. 'cause you can, you know, and so, and. But, and, okay, so I feel very strongly, and I always have been like this, I think you should disclose it, right? Because I think human trust, it goes back to that thing where it takes a very long time to build it, and you can lose it in like a second, right? So if you're doing it with ai, I think you should say, Hey, this is AI generated, but what you can, what, the reason why I'm finding these things is I'm probably doing some weird long tail search about something, right? And it's like almost, it's not customized for me, but it almost is, right? 'cause it's so unusual that it may not, it like exist in like the human generated content. So, and I've also noticed this like on X, right? There's a lot of people that are out there and like, then they'll, you'll be in a thread and they'll ask Rock for an answer. Oh yeah. And then people are like, why are you asking Rock? And it's like, well, I mean, it's one thing to say. When people post stuff that AI wrote, I feel, I can tell, I think I'm very clever, so I could be wrong, you know, and I get annoyed by it right away, because again, you're pretending it's you, but when somebody brings a thread into the conversation and is like, well, can you, you know, give us this little historical fact or look this up and then gr can, like we know it's rock, right? No one's like pretending it's Patrick and then it's in the thread. It's like, oh, okay. Yeah, I could have go grabbed it myself, but it's like kind of convenient, you know? So I think going back to your point about, you know, Google and I certainly don't have that kind of, you know, scope in my life, but I would really be thinking about how do you combine the human generated content with AI generated? And as you know, like it's just gonna be getting closer and closer together. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think that. As humans. We want transparency and honesty there. I think that that's part of the key thing, and I do think there's a whole garbage problem, right? It's so easy to generate stuff, but just think how much I was telling my kids this over the weekend. I said, you used to be able to Google or search, maybe it was before Google, but it's like you would come to the end of the results even with Google in early days, right? Oh yeah, Google some. Remember that? Again, I'm a long tail searcher, probably because I'm just weird, but it would be like five pages of results, and then that was it. You were at the end of the internet. There was nothing else to talk about on that topic, right? I mean, that's it. Everything was crawl or everything else was behind, and so. The, the content curation business is insane, right? I mean I think like that's the real reason they need all those data centers 'cause they're plowing through all this crap in some cases that people are creating and trying to find those gold nuggets and they do that service for us. So I had, I had a coworker, actually this is also a mutual friend of ours that I think at one point reached the end of the internet. He had seen, was his name Patrick Paterson? No. He had seen every single webpage that has like that had ever existed. It reminds me of stumble upon. Do you remember that? Oh, I do remember. Just like introducing new, new stuff and at some point it would end and you stumbled upon at all, every, everyone in their twenties is like, I have no idea what they're talking about, what he stumble upon. This is amazing. It makes me wonder what you guys are talking about though, whether it be like YouTube, you human will that stay just human generated content and We'll we end up with like an AI tube or something where they do separate it. 'cause people do just have like an outcry for actual human stuff when there's probably a startup there that somebody that YouTube will buy. But I have a different take than Tracy does on this. Right? So, um. I think you should not put out crappy content. Great. And I don't care how you generate it, but you don't wanna know. I don't care. Okay. I don't care if it's good and it's entertaining and it brings me value. I don't care how it was generated. Why should I, you know, if you put out, if you wrote it yourself, you didn't have AI generated and it's bad. Like, should I care about it more because you wrote it. That's when we call it art. That's when we call it art. No, I'm joking. No, I do think that people being, doing stuff without tools and being sort of crappy sometimes people are like, but it's human. It's like, yeah, I don't know. No, it's like I don't, like, I don't give extra credence to something. And I think, actually, I think it's actually a dangerous thing when you talk about the change management aspect inside organizations to think about, Hey, I gotta disclose every time I use ai. Right? Because it is a, and I know that's not what you're saying. I, I know you use it every day, thousands of times a day. But like, you know, I think what my story two years ago. You know, when we tried to roll out chat PT inside of level, you know, what I found is people came to meetings and they were like ashamed of the fact that they used Yeah. A, a large language model to help them. And we actually did get over that, right? Where it was like, I saw that on my Right. Right. And like, so you, you experienced that. It's like, it's like, no, like I Please use it. Please use it. Right? I'm paying you the same amount. Please be more productive. Like, correct. And I, and you know, people would walk in, like walk in, you know, 2020, float into the Slack channel. Float into the Slack channel. They'd walk into my office and we'll just say it that way. And you know, my first question would be, Hey, what did, what did Chachi PT think of this before? And if, if they didn't have an answer, I'd be like, well, turn around or, or float outta here. Float outta here and end this chat. We'll go into our slack, another slack huddle. And in 20 minutes, once you have used a large language model, beat this up. And what's funny is like a percentage of those never came back. 'cause they're like, oh, Chay PT gave me an answer. I no longer need you. Right. Right. And so, like, I, and, and so. For me, like I can, I can also very clearly tell when it's ai Yeah. And I, to my, here's like, here's the, the part of that is like, okay, then that's not valuable enough. But it will get to a point. Yeah. It will get to a point quickly where you can't tell the difference. Well, when mild searches for this in a year, you know, this could be out of date. I'll just say as somebody who is. I have a lot of experience in change management and helping people to adapt to change. And by the way, I absolutely love change. So this is not my personal feeling. It was actually by realizing, oh, most people don't love change. Ha ha. You know, like that. I, I think I got good, I got sensitive to it is, I think we're in a period of time where just like you were saying, you are pushing this early, your team's ahead. You have to be careful when you're an early person to construe your opinions about stuff to the gen pop, right? Oh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, I know we both know that, right? I mean, I won't bring up the Bluetooth garage door opener, but it was just fine. But it was a good idea. Listen, that's whole business. I mean, it sounds like you brought it up. So, I mean, just Patrick is a very early stage, high tech innovators. I own Google Glass. That, that's just a, you know, a thing. But I also, um, so Smart homes were a whole, you know, I, I adopted smart weren't, no, they weren't the thing. Smart home tech well before. Smart home it, they were even called smart Home. It was like in the hacker community. I used to work in a construction company. We tried to sell people smart homes. Yeah, it was very difficult. I remember when Internet of Things was named. Like, I remember the name of Internet of Things came out and I was like, that's the dumbest name. I've been doing this for four years in my garage with a back box of scraps. And so, you know, Tracy's, uh, Tracy would make fun of me 'cause everything I would buy had to have Bluetooth. Well, I would swing by and be like, Hey, what are you up to? And be like, oh, I'm programming my garage door. What do you need? Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm in the middle of programming my garage door. I was like, oh, how's our website project going? Well, no, but if it's been up for 30 minutes, I want a text notification. Right. Because I can't code and I can't, I can't do my work if I'm worried about my garage door. You're talking about raspberry pie and other people think it's dessert, so human centered, you're setting up the garage door. So anyway, he's very early. Right. And I tend to be early too. And so what one of the things that happens is you can be very frustrated when you're an early person. You think, see things early. Yeah. Right. But realistically, it takes time for people to adopt. I also think that trust is extremely important. So that's part of the reason why I'm also probably like sort of a snob or I'm like, if you, if you send me an AI generated message. And you were trying to act like it wasn't, I don't know. I might be offended by that. Like, it, there's a difference between coaching chat GBT into something versus just, I don't know. Anyway, I've sent you AI generated messages before. Oh, I know. Oh, she knows. Yeah, but she knows, but not like for like one-on-one stuff. Mm, no, I haven't. No, they're, I mean, I can tell they're the AI's a little bit, you know, maybe a little bit better writer. So, um, but I, I think that, but having that disclosure, I think much better writer. I, I think people are like naturally suspicious of it, right? Mm-hmm. There's a lot of, right now there's quite a bit of negativity around it. And so I say this as an agent of wanting this adoption to happen, that I think it should be disclosed, right? Like I was having this conversation with somebody and they were using that, you probably know the name of the tool, but you know, the one that basically gets like five seconds of your video and it can like, make a whole, you know, you can have your script and it will do it for you. Hey Jen, probably. Yeah. And so somebody was talking about how they had training at work with it and they're like, it was really creepy. 'cause their eyes slightly don't move or something like that. Mm-hmm. And so. I think to say to somebody, this goes back to change management. In framing, I say to you, miles, we're trying out this new technology. The reason why we're trying it is people really like to see the speaker's faces. It feels more personal, but realistically, we don't have the time capacity to do individualized videos for each person with every face. Like as the, I can do an all hands and I gotta have everybody on, but I can't do one off messages to the team. But using this technology, I can take my message, customize it based on what I know about you, and you'll see my face and it might seem a little bit janky at first, but I'm helping you understand my why and setting context for you, and I'm not pretending it's not me. Or that it is me. It is me. Kind of me. Right? It's both. It's both on me. And also if you're a company that uses ai, then you just have that from the beginning. And we're using AI in our onboarding too, right? And we expect you to do similar things and Right. Yeah. So if Miles' eyes look a little bit weird in the video and the onboarding video, that's not real miles, right? It's, it's Miles' ai and it's helping him to be more productive. 'cause actually he's on a plane going to visit with a client or something like that. So whether it's that or just the disclosure, I, you know, I agree with you, right? Like I have chat GBT review my post for LinkedIn. I go back and forth with it. Like I don't disclose that, I don't hide it. But I also think, you know, some of this thing is like dramatic over disclosure for people. Like I kind of get it, but I'm just saying if you're straight up having AI do something, I think it will build trust. And I think trust is really important. 'cause ultimately I believe that trust will speed adoption. Whereas if people are like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Like even with this one, I was telling you, it was like it was a fashion video and I was kind of like, is this. Is this ai? And I'm like, is it, then I'm like, is this real? Like, is it up to date? You know? And then I was kind of like, I don't know if I wanna spend time with this because I'm just not sure what's going on. Whereas it said like, Hey, this is AI generated and we pulled content, the latest content from 2025. That's what I was looking for, or whatever. I, I don't know. I, I think why not? And I also think that generally speaking, as humans, when people don't disclose things, we don't think positive things. We think suss things. Speaking of the fashion world, have you, have you used, I don't know if you have or you haven't. You, you, you, this is like the, the, I don't have the Amazon mirror. No, it's, so, it's, uh, Google Dopple. Have you guys seen this? No. D-O-P-P-L. It's a body double thing. So yeah, you take a picture of yourself. All right. It's really cool. Right? So you take a picture of yourself. Sorry, you said fashion. So now I'm on a, uh, yeah. Um, and then you select an outfit that you can buy. Right. And it will put it on you. Interesting. And it's. Really wicked good. You would think a company like Stitch Fix or something would be all over that. Right? Well, and this is, this is the interesting, this is the interesting issue that I think you're going to find. Like Google has deep mind and has, you know, in, I mean, Google invented l om ai from low way back. Right? Right. And so, like, sticks stick, stitch fix can't keep up. Mm-hmm. It's impossible. Right. And that's why I, you know, there's, there's three types of organizations, right? There's the, the organizations that are creating the AI tech, there are the organizations adopting the AI tech and there are obsolete organizations. And I think unfortunately, you know, the line between company, uh, companies that create it and companies that adopt it, like the chasm got much, much bigger in the past couple years. Like you used to be able to be a services company and also create some tech on the side. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I think that's really difficult. These days. Um, I don't know if you have a different take on that, but like, you know, I, I see, I see these big companies that are creating the tech, like they're really gonna be leading the world. And like we're all going to be sitting here saying, okay, how do I, you know, which, am I gonna be a Microsoft shop? Am I gonna be a Google shop? Am I gonna be a ServiceNow plat? Am I gonna be on the ServiceNow platform? Am I gonna be in Salesforce? What, what, you know, these large companies are gonna be the ones that are, are gonna dictate kind of what we have access to. And there's gonna be less, I think, of creating the tech. So like, what Stitch Fix probably will do is partner with Google IT, license, license and license with Google, right. And use it in a different way and put their unique spin on it and add value to their customer base, um, in a different way than just, you know, Google having, you know, giving access, access to the api, to how do I AI this thing? Right. It's like you don't I think that, yeah. Yeah, I think actually as a professional services partner, that is the gap that we bridge a lot of times. You know, like there's this technology available on a platform, whether it's Google or ServiceNow in my world today or whatever. And then there's like this set of opportunities you have or the customer you have or how you make money as a business or how you wish you made money 'cause you have a cool new idea or whatever. And then how do I take it from, it would be cool if I could do something like this, like, well, Amazon has this thing. How does Stitch Fix do it? Well, I mean a Stitch Fix customer. I expect to try on my Stitch Fix clothes based on my Stitch Fix profile and things you already know. I don't want the generic Google thing and then I have to drag and drop the clothes. Right. I want integration. I want that specific data. If citrus doesn't have that, I would argue that people won't use it because there won't be unique value. They're just like, why might as well just use Google? And by the way, now I can see where I can find that green plat, green green jacket and like 50 different locations and like $12 from China and $200 from here, whatever, and do that shopping, right? And so I think that, I think this is part of where I landed where I did is I'm good at like taking the technology and understanding like sort of affordance and constraints and then how do you actually apply it? Also understand the other side, which is what are thefor affordances and constraints of this business, right? Not everybody is gonna adopt every single thing, and I think that's why like. I think as tech people, it can look like all the big players and all the big companies are gonna be the winners, right? They'll collect all the data, they'll collect. But I've always thought that's not gonna happen. And not because of like strictly logical reasons, but because humans are so creative and inventive and it's inside of us, so wanna do something different Like, look how I got into computer science, you know, didn't go to, you know, computer science and went to nursing because I had to rebel against my teacher or whatever. There's something in us that wants to be unique and wants to be different. Like, why do kids draw? Why do we paint stuff and we could just buy paintings off Amazon or whatever. People still do that. And so I think that's why businesses get created and she's like, how do I help these businesses to be able to do something unique for their market segment and, and help them? And so that's why I think those big, I mean there's arguments like debates go on adding from like on the internet as we all know. But like in some ways I think the platform companies are very important, but they're important. Like when I plug in an outlet, I want my electricity so that, so there you go, right? I think. When you think about electricity, and this is just gonna be a theme we should have called the puck. I I talk about electricity a lot. Um, it's important. I, well, I also don't have an electricity strategy level, right? Um, like, so why would I have an AI strategy? Because I believe that electricity and AI are actually very, very similar. Now, here's the difference. I'm gonna plug in my, my, my computer to that outlet. I expect to get electricity. Um, I don't care if I plug into that outlet or that outlet. All the electricity is the same. Now, the internet generally felt the same way, right? I'm going to be on the internet or off the internet. Now, there was a difference there in speed, right? Mm-hmm. So now I could choose a provider based off of speed. Mm-hmm. Um, so this is faster, this is slower, this is cheaper, this is more expensive. Now we go into the next level of all of this, which is ai. And now instead of having, you know, one, one variable, which is speed, well two variables, speed and cost, um. Electricity was just cost. Internet is speed and cost. And now we're in LLM, it's quality, speed, and cost. Right. And so when we're thinking about AI now we have lots of options, but it's still a utility in my opinion. Mm-hmm. Totally agree. But now, instead of using like, I'm only gonna use one electric El el electricity provider, right. I'm probably gonna use multiple AI providers that all afford me different levels of quality, speed, and cost. Yep. And that do different things. And then, you know, maybe I'll have a local model that does this. Maybe I'll have a enterprise model that does this. Right. But like, that's the chasm. Like we're not like stop trying to build the next utility company. Right. Right. Don't do that. That's company. Those are those companies that are building the AI tech. They're now utility companie and they're spending money in the bees in the billions. Once you got the billions, just let let 'em do it. So I totally agree with you. You right now, let's tap into the that, that utility and if you can tap into that utility appropriately. If you can be Stitch Stitch fix and go to Doppel and go to Google and say, this is how I'm gonna use this, and this is how I'm gonna add to my user base and my client base in a unique way. Like now you're utilizing that utility in a way that no one else has. And just like when. You connected to the internet and you're creating something that no one else else else has. Or back in the day when you connected electricity and you could do things at scale that no one else could. Right. It's a very, and I, I fully believe we're about to enter a renaissance, a golden age of new business ideas and new things that help humans and do all of those things. So it's super exciting. Yeah. But like, stop coming to me, like, literally, please stop coming to me and saying, how do I, how do I create the next chat, GPT? Like, you're not going to, I'm sorry. Like, like Musk did it, which I was completely impressed by Grok. Right. He, he's something else though. Yeah. I mean like, but like Yeah. He also was one of the founders of C Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, you know, like, so like, just because there could be a few more who come out who're super successful, right. There could be Probably these all could go away. Could be. Yeah. Most people that we know and talk to, that's probably not gonna be their thing. They should be at MIT or Stanford, or Correct. Yeah. C-M-U-C-M-U. Oh, definitely. Great school here. Great school. So love Pittsburgh. So Patrick, I think, um. I have this longstanding thing that I get extremely annoyed when what quote our field like tech and whatever gets talked about in the media. 'cause it's always an annoying conversation. I remember this with social too, and like Web 2.0, it was like, what's your social strategy? It was like, what's your mobile strategy now? It's like what's your AI strategy? And like of course you have to give the people what they want. And I'm not saying, Hey, if you wanna buy so an AI strategy, I'll help you. But what my strategy will actually be is what is the business strategy and then how do we. Incorporate AI into that. How do we incorporate God forget blockchain. I mean, that was, remember it was old blockchain people were doing a blockchain strategy. I was like, I'm sorry, what? You know, it's like an edge use case, right? It's not bad. It's like a tool, right? It's kinda like when I go to Home Depot and there's this weird shaped tool and you're just like, I hardly ever need this, but sometimes I do. So it is important, okay, for people to understand these types of things are out there so that they can get their thinking going. Mm-hmm. And have thought starters. Mm-hmm. Right? I mean, you said like somebody's just like, I wanna do this or that. I don't, I, I would way rather talk to someone who's talking about doing something crazy with AI in their company. Right Then just saying like, I'm gonna build an AI platform. I'm just like, I'm not your right person. Okay. If that's what you wanna do, you need much more technical person than I am when those guys that stays up all night and does it for a hobby. Right? But if you're saying like, I think I might use AI for this on my company. Like it could be a terrible idea, but I don't mind that, right? Because then you're just like, then you just idea say, okay, well how would that work? And went, well, what about this and what, what are your other big opportunities? And that, I think that's where the magic is. Yeah. You know, so I think that like, again, maybe I just, it is frustrating to see how it gets talked about in the press. Like even this MIT study that just came out like a couple days ago, right? So the latest headline is 95% of AI pilots are not being adopted 95. And so I'm like, okay, okay. So of course I just feel like I'm an old, grouchy person, but I was like this a long time ago. You knew me when I was young. So, so 95% of AI projects, first I need pilots, right? Pilots, pilots, pilots. Uh, no ROI don't show ROI. My question. And do they, I, and it, I, I need to pull it up, but, um, how many pilots produce ROI? That was what I was gonna say. Okay. This is not a new problem. Okay. Second of all, lots of technology projects literally never shift. Still, the vast majority of tech projects never go to production. Guys. We're still at this very basic level of, most things never even go live. And these are things that get budgeted for millions and millions of dollars. They spent, you know, they, they don't go live. Um, and so, and then when I looked at the findings, I'm like, I, I feel like I should be more famous. 'cause what were the findings, Patrick? Okay, so first of all, obviously you're doing a pilot. By its nature, it's a test. So some are supposed to fail. It's not supposed to be 100%. Okay. So let's start with that. But let's say 95% is a lot of failure, even if it's high volume. Okay. But I would say. Are you picking the right problems? Have you done the right change management? Like, I remember when people would be like, Hey, I have this idea, I'm gonna figure out how to automate Patrick's department with my department. Well, did you talk to Patrick about that? You think? I'm like, look, I figured out how to automate your department. You'd be like, get outta here. Especially in the corporate world first. First of all, if you did that, I'd be like, that's awesome. I know you went well. I mean, you're a bad example, you're a bad example. But like, I see that kind of stuff and it's like, I think, you know, sometimes these innovation teams are like, well, I, I, I job shadowed something for like 12 minutes and I think I can automate their job. It's like, okay. You know, so I, I think it's a sensational bullshit headline. It probably is, to be honest with you. Right. So directional, quick, quick search here. Right. So one benchmark, um, that, uh, before AI, proof of concepts had a 20 to 30% success rate. So we really could have written this article, uh, five years ago and could have said 80% of pilots. Tech pilots fail inside of organizations now it's 95%. Okay. So that's a difference. Yeah, sure. That's not a small difference. Uh, but then I, then I ask myself the question why? And I can tell you just in our organization, miles, what we're, we're, we're probably launching 10 times as many pilots as we used to. Yeah. Maybe a hundred times more pilots. I mean, every individual person is empowered to launch their own pilot. So we're, so we're launching hundreds of more pilots inside of level. So what's gonna happen? Yeah. More are gonna fail. More are gonna fail. So like, I, I think it's the wrong stat. Uh, I don't know. I think this was specifically the enterprise. Okay. Alright. So I'm not, I'm not picking on you. I do think that there's, obviously, there's, well, no, I mean we're the, we're the Goldilocks size, right? We're big enough to attract awesome talent, but we're small enough to stay nimble, right? Enterprise doesn't, I bet, I bet more than 95% or more than 5% of yours work too. Because especially people are launching their own, they know their own stuff, right? You kind of don't have that problem. Oh, this impacts across functional team. Um, again, going back to the enterprise, people are under tremendous pressure. I can't tell you how many CIOs I've talked to and I'm like, Hey, I have this business and I do ServiceNow now, and you have ServiceNow and whatcha you gonna do with ServiceNow? And they're like, you know, we're not funding any new projects, but oh, we are doing stuff for ai. Our board wants to hear about ai. And so, I mean, that is the average conversation I have with someone. Okay. For the last two years or whatever. And so. When that you just get into a lot of hammer nail type stuff. And then you get into a lot of, again, this is specifically the enterprise, right? Do you wanna get fired or do you wanna do an AI pilot, even if you know it's not gonna work. Even if you're just like, Hey, what we really ought to do is like, clean up our data first, or get our, our workflows, you know, we run a workshop, understand what the workflow should be, and they're like, no, no, no, we don't have time for that. We gotta, we got a quarterly board meeting, we gotta tell 'em what's happening. We have to get out to the street. And so I do think your point about volume is true. I love so, right, and that that volume is less lessening quality. Some large, I'm gonna read this, some large companies, uh, pilots and younger startups are really accelerating and excelling with generative ai. Um, for example, we have seen revenues jump from zero to $20 million in a year. It's because they pick one pain point, execute well and partner smartly with companies who use their tools. I mean, it's like, it's like you wrote the article, it's almost like there's a recipe for six success. It's almost so. So that's the answer then to be in the 5%. 'cause everyone wants to be in the 5% of the successful pilots. Of course, yeah. No one wants to come back a quarter later to the board and say that they're in the 90. Although now everybody will be like, well, 95% failed anyway. My thing is like, that's always been true. Yeah. But how do you systematically de-risk things right along the way? Maybe you're just like, maybe I decide to make a bunch of AI generated videos and not tell my customers they were gonna be AI generated. Well, why did you generate the videos before you said to your customers, Hey, how do you feel about ai? Going back to like the earlier illustration, if we disclosed it, we said This is something new and it's free for you, would you try it out versus saying, oh no, we added it to the homepage and we took away the beloved real human Patrick that used to be on the homepage. It only ever changed once a month. Now it changes every day. Like, well, maybe I don't even go on your thing every day. I don't even wanna see a new video every time. Now I don't see the same thing. Miles sees Miles and I used to bond over what was there. It's that human piece. I'm not saying it's only human, right? You have to triangulate around the human part and the technology part. Super important. Okay. I'm not saying tech isn't important, but also like what's the process site? Can your people even, like, are you launching a pilot at your busiest season? And the people who manage that team are either going to take a hit in productivity or they're gonna say, yeah, nice pilot tech nerd. We can talk next year. Yeah. Well, and so, you know, another stat here, um. How companies adopt AI is crucial. Purchasing AI tools from specialized vendors and building partnerships succeed 67% of the time while internal builds succeed. Only one third as often. So, you know, thinking about this as well, I have seen this, uh, you know, every, okay, as a marketer, everyone thinks they're a marketer, right? Everybody believed, and it took a while, and it still happens today. You know, it took a while for people to be like, why do I need to hire an agency to do this? Like, I know that the logo should be bigger, so therefore I have a Facebook, I could on Facebook, yeah. Make the logo bigger, easy. Why am I paying an agency? Right? And I think like now people have realized, oh, it's way more complicated than that. And you're not really paying an agency to execute. You're paying an agency or a consultancy for the success, for the, for the, for the, the fact that you're not going to fail. What? S you know, uh, 66% of the time you're, you, you know, you're, you're going to have a greater a two x chance of success. Right. Man. How much is that worth? Um, when we talk about time, energy, and, and effort and calories to, to do this stuff. And I imagine very similar in your world, right? Totally. I can't even imagine large corporations being like, oh, we're just gonna do this ServiceNow, uh, thing ourselves. Oh, people do it all the time. I mean, they do all kinds of stuff themselves. Or people will come from companies like mine and go, will you hire me to be the head of product and I'll do it for you? And they try to bring in a team and they don't realize that you're now on a different planet. Yeah. Right? Correct. Like the pri primary focus of this organization say, is. Providing healthcare or selling stuff to stores that sell stuff to other people or making tools like whatever. You're no longer in a company that all you do is wake up in the morning and figure out how do you deliver the best ServiceNow solutions for your customers or tell people when they shouldn't use ServiceNow. Same with you right? In your business. And it's hard to stay to focused on it so hard. 24 hours a day. Totally. Seven days a week. I hard dunno. Yeah. To know everything. No, you have to hire a bunch of different people that are specialized in the different areas. It's very analogous to your business with marketing, right? I mean, I'll just put it this way. I think I know something about marketing, which I'm on your board. I used to be in like a role like that. There's no way I'd be doing that. Stuff myself at scale. Right? No way. Because there's way too much to know. So there's all, and it's not my core business right now. I will say, you know, like I said, we had this data science practice before. I have seen really successful AI projects get built inside of organizations where it made a lot of sense. One, you had the data, two, you had the right teams. In this case they were bringing in some outside services teams to help them do the build, right? They did an incremental build, they got feedback from customers. I saw those things be very successful. So I feel like I've seen some of the less than a third that are successful. Yeah. Um, I bet that part of the reason why things are more successful with professional services, like same with you guys, right? If your customers should. Don't do that. Yeah. It's, it's, we should get a couple dollars for every time we see somebody should, it's like, no, you should not do that. Like, how much money pay me to tell you how not to do? How much money did we just save you? Um, it'll be also, it'll be interesting to see if they do the same report next year, how the percentage change. I hope it's 99%. Yeah. Well that's, so let's go back to your electricity thing, for example, right? Imagine it's like MIT report shows Edison's light bulb fails 99% of the time. Right? Well, okay. It's not gonna work until it does. That wouldn't be great. Um, no, they're not putting the light bulb into the lamp, I think is maybe the analogy. I don't know. They're like, oh. Like you have to fail the long ways to do it until you learn the right ways to do it. Right. So like you could follow any individual, these pilots that failed the first time, how many of them don't the second or third time? Okay. But smart people sensationalism. We stand on the shoulders of giants, right? So, sure. I always would say this in my old company. And I like to say to my new company, which is Make new mistakes. Okay. Like, if you're gonna make a mistake, don't make the same mistake I made before. Miles made before. Right? Right. Patrick, make a new mistake if you're gonna do something. I be like, Patrick, I did that before and it didn't work. He's like, okay, I'll come up with a different terrible idea that won't work or might work. I'm, you know, I'm good at coming up with bad ideas. We're all good at, that's my superpower. Bad ideas. But if somebody says to you like, okay dude, but I did this before, the fact you listen or not, and this goes back to this is my mic drop moment. What is the skill for success in all this stuff? Humility. You know? 100%. 100%. And you can see some of these people, I mean, I don't know the details of this study, but I've been around the internet and I've been around the tech scene a lot and you know, the type of people that are out there, big hat, no cattle, they're talking about all the stuff they're doing, you know, but I'm like, you run into somebody from their company, they're like, I'm like, oh, aren't you doing this cool thing? They're like, nobody's using that. Yeah. So, um. It's funny you say, uh, I would, I would, I would never do my own marketing. I would absolutely hire someone, however, well on LinkedIn. Now, this is your, this is your personal and professional LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. You are doing a great job. Thank you. If you don't follow, uh, Tracy on LinkedIn, you should do that. We'll put the, hopefully we can put the, oh, thank you. Put the link in the show notes. Link in the show notes somewhere. Can we do that? We can do that. Do we have the technology? We do. Okay. Sask a I had to do it sca. I had to do it. That's what I usually do, but thank you. But, uh, your, your, your LinkedIn's phenomenal. Um, I, you know, obviously I watch all of your videos, but, um, same on your, on your, your LinkedIn. You are not just a tech CEO, you are a mom and you are a, a partner to your, to your husband. Um, and that comes through a lot in your, in your LinkedIn and you know, what you are posting. That had to be a. A choice that you made. It was, yeah. And so talk me through that. Like, um, like a, why did you, why, why are you choosing to share that on LinkedIn and like how has that part of your life influenced the other parts of your life? I did do it on purpose, so, um, if you follow me on LinkedIn, which please do. Yeah. Um, I just wanna clarify something for the record. I did use an agency to get started and learned from that person. Ah, going back to saying I would not do it by myself. I learned best practices. They did, did a good job helping you though. They did a really good job helping me. Thank you. What was that agency for? Everyone listening Impacts, marketing Impacts, we can put that link with an X. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and as you know, Patrick, I've recommended them to lots of people. Mm-hmm. So they're great. And I do have a content manager and a video person, so I'm, it might look like I'm doing it myself, but I have a lot of help. Um, and so I, I really appreciate that. It makes it more scalable too. And so, and if I were a bigger company and I was buying ads and stuff, you know, I'd be your customer for sure. Um, I wanna get that. So, but going back to why I decided to kind of like talk about being a wife, talk about being a mom, um, on LinkedIn. Is it, it goes back to, you know, my comment earlier when people say, what's it like to be a woman in tech? It's like, what's it like to not be a woman in tech? What's it like to be a dad in tech? Like, I don't really know. Right? I know what I know. Um, and as I've gotten older, I've realized, okay, you know, I've had these moments of opportunity with my teams or friends or whatever, you know, people are having their first baby or, you know, going through something difficult, difficult breakup or whatever. And you have those like moments as you know, A-A-C-E-O or boss or, you know, professional contact or friend to help people along. And I wanted to scale that because I think, especially for women, I can only speak as a woman, but we face a lot of criticism, you know, every, I mean, the internet can be very critical, but in real life I think women face more criticism. It's like sometimes you just feel like you can't win, right? So if you're professionally successful and who's taking care of your kids, you know, if you're decide to take some time off and take care of your kids full time, it's like, well, you gotta stay in the workforce. Women fought for your right to be in the workforce. It's like, gimme a break, you know? And so, and I also have this like. Kind of, you know, like, I'm not trying to be Elon Musk here, but I did think of this before he started tweeting about it, which is like, we can make being a parent seem so hard that people don't wanna do it. In fact, statistics show that that's happening. Yeah. When in fact, and I think I've had an unusually amazing career. I've loved it. I've loved the people I've met, all the things I've learned. But I love being a mom, you know? And I am not a perfect mom. Like sometimes I'm like, I'd rather have you talk to one of my employees sometimes than one of my kids. Like, I know she's kind of crazy, you know? But you know, the world has continued to go on when we were raised by imperfect and wonderful parents. My kids are being raised by imperfect parents. I love my kids very much, and I want people to not miss out on that, especially professional women. I want people to realize it's possible. I also want people to realize, you know, if you drop a ball occasionally, so does everybody else. Yeah. You know? Well, I think it goes back as well to something that you said, um, about when someone says, Hey. Uh, I've made this mistake, or I, I have this experience. You listen, make new mistakes, right? So make new mistakes. And I think, you know, a lot of the times, you know, understanding, you know, other people's stories and hearing them helps us make new mistakes and, and totally. And, and forge ahead. So I love that. I think we learn more from, like as tech people, I think we learn more from story. Then us as tech people wanna think, but the older I get, the more I realize. Yeah, that's totally true. Right? Like we used to like sit around the fire and share stories and now we do it online. Now we do, now we have laptops and Starbucks in front of us. Right. LinkedIn videos and YouTube videos should totally be on YouTube. I should have a podcast. Yes. Alex, I'm still listening to your text messages. You send me, you know, I know, I know. I can't be quite as, you know, as good as Patrick. So I do think that that helps And, and actually my, my content around work is also story focused. It, I try to have it be, of course it's like a short forum, but like, the reality is I learned a lot of what I learned the hard way. And part of, you know, what I wanna help people do is make new mistakes or avoid mistakes or, you know, be in the 5% on pilots instead of the 95%. So you've made the purposeful decision to highlight all that stuff on your LinkedIn. Now, have you always done that or is there a point in your career when you didn't and you kept it separate? And if that's true, I'm wondering the difference you see now that you are sharing that side of you. Oh yeah. When I was younger, I like tried to be super professional. You know, I was, I was a teen mom, I was a single mom, so I was always a mom When I got my first developer job, I, I actually, any jobs I interviewed for when I was younger, I didn't tell them I had a kid. Like, not till like later on I was like, oh yeah, I took my kid daycare. And people were like, what? You have a kid? 'cause I was so young, you know? But I thought that was the way to be successful was to compartmentalize. Um, and I don't think that that's, you know, there's some pros to that, right? When you're at, I always try, when I'm at work, I'm at work, you know, I'm focused on work. I think part of the reason why, you know, part of something that women do to themselves is they fragment themselves too much. They're checking the baby camera like 800 times, just like. Hire the best people you can trust it, focus while you're at work so that when you're done for the day, you can be done. Focus on your kids. Yeah. You know? Um, so for sure I was not always like that. I also didn't realize until more time went by that my approach was unique and I had anything to share. In fact, because I came up in that very, you know, developer culture is, um, it's a little bit machismo. I mean, it's also equal equalitarian. So I think that's part of the reason why I did well. It's like if you were good at what you did, you could advance. Um, I find that executive leadership is not so much that 'cause it's harder to measure, you know? But I definitely wasn't, I was always like, I was focused on what I was weak at. I was like, I wish I was better code. I wish I wanted to stay up all night and mess. I mean, I liked it, but I didn't love it the way other people did. And I didn't think I had something unique to share. And so. People would say like, wow, no one said that to me like that. Or, I remember when you said X, y, Z to me 10 years ago. And I was like, first of all, I don't remember saying it. And second of all, I'm like, I said something that matters that much to someone, you know? Yeah. And then I It's a cool feeling though, right? It is. It is a cool feeling. Um, for sure. So, um, so when I, when I went to put together my content strategy, what was I gonna share? It's not actually very comfortable for me still to talk a lot about the family stuff because, you know, frankly, I believe the most important thing that I do is be a mom. And I'm not a perfect mom. And I've made a lot of mistakes and part of the things I share with people, and I always have with my teams is like, Hey, take time off when you have a baby. Like, the work will still be there. Did I do that, Patrick? When I had my babies? I did not. Nope. No, I didn't take any time off. I remember I was writing code on my, on my laptop when I was in labor with my now 20-year-old son. Wow. I mean, I was always like that. And so, um, but do I think it was like the smartest thing? No. Is everyone like me ak slightly crazy and able to context very switch very quickly. No. And so I think people need to, I, I I do it to encourage people to focus on what's important. And then on the more professional side, I see the same things over and over and over again to make projects and not succeed. Or they, you know, they, they don't achieve all the potential. And I ultimately, you know, yes, I wanna get customers through the channel, of course I do if I think I can help them, but ultimately, like there's all this potential with tech, like Pat was saying, we're going into this new age and we can't do that. If people can't actually adopt these tools. There'll be actually a huge divide between the people who are and aren't. I don't want that 'cause I care about people. I want more people to adopt it and I want them to be able to use it in a way that's sustainable for their life that still allows 'em to spend time with their families and do all the hobby type things that people like to do. Okay. So knowing that you, you share all of that, and we've talked about that and much more today, even with all you share, is there something you wish you would get asked in an interview or in a business meeting or over your Starbucks coffee that you don't have to get asked? Because then spoiler, we're gonna ask you. Okay. Well, it's kind of funny 'cause I, I, my first thought is like, am I ever gonna have an interview again? I don't know, but um, like a job interview, you'll, well, no, I think I'm unemployable a podcast. I think I'm, this is an interview. We're interviewing you. Okay. Um, I think, you know, you guys actually got into it, but I think the what's my why? Um, and the answer of my why is. I'm here to help people be more than they think that they can be. I want people to, I wanna help people over obstacles. I wanna open their eyes and see what's possible for them personally, for their businesses, for the way that they can serve their customers and serve their markets and not be afraid. Right? Like to be a partner and be like, that's fine. Like, it's like, you know, my daughter woke up in the middle of the night and she's like, she's like, look at the monster in the corner. And I turned on my phone flashlight. I said, look, that's mommy's shirt. That's mommy's other shirt. That's your box of toys. Well, let's not get into that. But I was like, it's not a monster. It's not scary. It's fine. You know, and helping people to kind of overcome those obstacles so that they can. We all have to be part of this together. I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't wanna have like walls and guns and I don't want walls and guns for my kids, right? So we need more people as able, so that's my why. I wanna help more people along. I mean, I'm generally a fan of walls, uh, like, well, just like you want a wall around your house, doors house in your house. Doors. Doors are also good. No, no. Yeah, that's true. I, and I mean, actually you house hats or roofs? Roofs, I'm just saying you wanna have to personally have your own, you know, military presence. I mean, to have those big divides. I mean, you don't want that for people. We don't want that for this, you know, this country or our world, you know? Well, I love that. Why? And, um, you know, one of the things I really appreciate about Tracy Miles, so I have never met anyone in my entire life to this day that, uh, you know, we'll have a conversation a week ago or whatever, and I, I need to at some point ba you know, you need to show me your workflow because it's impressive. But, um, I'll get a text message. Like a week and a half later. And she, you know, it is like, it's like all she's been thinking about for the past week and a half is this problem that I had. And yeah. And she hasn't done any other work. She hasn't talked to anyone else. She hasn't, I've not fed my children. She's not fed her children. All she's done, she's coding while she's here. Yeah. All she's done is thought about me, right. And sent me this really thoughtful like, text message or just a check in, like, hey, like thinking about you this morning and you know, I know you're going through this. Have you made any progress? And you are consistent with that. It is one of the things I really, really love about our, our friendship. And I, you know, I don't know how you continue to do that. It's something I'm very bad at. Um, and we always, you know, we always look up to folks that are good at the things you're bad at, but you are amazing at it. Thanks. Out of all, it's very, my entire professional network. So, um, you're really bringing that why to life, even in those small moments? I think so. I love, I love that about you. Um. Thank you so much for, for coming on. This was great. Thanks for having me. I, I love you. I love your business. I think what you're doing is great. I love how you're raising the bar to help your customers. You know, they, they need your help. I mean, they've always needed your help. Now they need your help even more to, you know, especially with all these AI enabled tools. 100%. How do people, um, what's your preferred method of people get in touch with you at LinkedIn? Yeah, LinkedIn, but they can text me, but I probably shouldn't put my cell phone on LinkedIn. I'm not that dumb. I already get a lot of like spam text messages, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, so yeah, they can damn me on LinkedIn or do they disclose their ai now? Do they, do the text disclose? No, they don't. And actually they're pretty good. They very good. They're just like, Hey, can we still meet for breakfast? And I. Like, I mean, they're good. They're like, crap. Did I miss a breakfast meeting? Right? Yeah. I am interested in that job. Uh, so indeed.com and 75,000 a day from your house. It's amazing. It's amazing. I almost replied to one the other day. I'm like 70, 75,000. This is, we need you at level. We need you at level. This sounds phenomenal. Uh, and yes, I will send you $500 worth of gift cards. Uh, so, uh, miles with that, why don't you take us away? Yes. That concludes our episode today. Thanks everyone for listening. Like we referenced throughout the interview, check out the show notes where we'll have links to Tracy's contact information and her LinkedIn profile where you can DM her and make sure you subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an episode. And we'll see you next time.