From Hustle to Human: Rediscovering Meaning in the Age of AI

From Hustle to Human: Rediscovering Meaning in the Age of AI

with Brooks Canavesi (Baryons)

Episode Summary

This week, Myles Biggs and Patrick Patterson sit down with Brooks Canavesi, serial entrepreneur, technologist, and co-founder of Baryons, an AI company building personal mentors designed to help people flourish. Brooks shares his journey from competitive athlete and founder to a wilderness rehab turning point, and why “good enough isn’t” only works when it’s paired with well-being. We unpack the science of flourishing (PERMA), how Baryons’ voice-first AI uses memory, intention, and post-call processing, and why the goal isn’t more hustle, it’s human agency.

If you’re curious about human-centered AI, personal growth, or building tech that actually helps people live better, this one’s for you.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• Why flourishing beats hustling, and how the PERMA model frames daily choices.
• How a personal AI mentor can surface root causes (not just symptoms) and drive real change.
• Memory that matters: recency/frequency, decay, and context graphs that feel human.
• Dialogue as product: designing questions, “be quiet” modes, and proactive nudges.
• Guardrails & compliance: building safety for students, teams, and B2C users.
• The power of transitions: why moments of change are the best time to adopt a mentor.
• Group Baryon: private, on-meeting insight that later guides each person 1:1.
• What AI can and can’t replace, and how to keep the human in human-centered AI.

Featured Guest

Brooks Canavesi — Co-Founder, Baryons
Serial entrepreneur and technologist focused on human-centered AI. Brooks blends product, engineering, and flourishing science to build voice-first AI mentors that help people and teams grow.

On X: @brookscanavesi
Sign up: https://baryons.com/
LinkTree (all socials): https://linktr.ee/baryons

Learn more

Baryons — Personal AI mentors for work and life: https://baryons.com/

Takeaways for Operators & Leaders

• Start with outcomes for people, not features for models; measure flourishing, not just usage.
• Treat conversation as a UI: craft prompts, toggles (yes/no), and check-ins with intention.
• Build proactive systems: memory, decay, and context so AI shows up with an agenda to help.
• Safety isn’t optional: define escalation paths, compliance checks, and when to stay silent.
• Focus the roadmap: say “no” to assistant sprawl; be the best at a narrow, high-value job.
• Design for transitions (new role, school, parenting, retirement) where impact compounds.

Connect With The Show

• Level Agency – https://www.level.agency/
• Patrick Patterson – https://www.linkedin.com/in/pattersonwork/
• Myles Biggs – https://www.linkedin.com/in/mylesjb

How to Support the Show

• Subscribe so you never miss an episode.
• Rate & review if it brought you value, share it with a friend.

Transcript

Brooks Canavesi 0:00

My Baryon was like, Hey, when you achieve something, like what do you do? Like when you win a big deal, when you do something interesting like that, what do you do? And I was like, I call it like all the most important people and we like to celebrate. And it was like, why do you think you do that?

Myles Biggs 0:14

On this podcast, we are driven by truth. Sometimes the hard truth. We believe it's imperative to be relentless for results because if you're not your competitor is we're obsessed with how to be better every day because that's what our customers deserve. And if you can set aside your ego, if you can truly be no ego, then we're the show to help you go all in. Because good enough isn't. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. I'm your host, Myles Biggs here today. Once again with the CEO of Level Agency and my co-host Patrick Patterson. Our guest today is a serial entrepreneur, technologist, and co-founder of Baryons, which is an AI company built around a radical idea. What if everyone had a personal AI mentor to help them flourish at work and in life? His story runs from writing code and building products to reimagining how human potential scales through intelligent systems. In our conversation today, we're gonna unpack his journey, the lessons he learned, building human-centered AI and his vision for a future where technology makes us more, not less human. So welcome to the show, Brooks Canavesi.

Brooks Canavesi 1:19

Thanks everyone. Stoked to be here.

Myles Biggs 1:22

So before we get in the heart of Baryons and what you're building there today, I wanted to go back in time for a few minutes and just get to know Brooks before you were who you are today. So if we could go to like 13-year-old Brooks. And he saw into the future to see what you're doing today. Do you think he'd be surprised?

Brooks Canavesi 1:40

So yeah, I would say a 13-year-old me would be extremely surprised with where I'm at today. I grew up in a very highly competitive family. My dad was a D one baseball player. My sister played D one golf at Notre Dame, honor society, all of the things. So it was a very competitive lifestyle. Concept of this podcast, like good enough isn't, definitely resonates with me as a child growing up, I was an athlete growing up and you know, it was that whole, you could always outwork the competitor, you could outlast them. There was no good enough. There was always room for improvement, and interesting stories, you know, as I grew up playing sports, you know, like most kids as athletes had aspirations of playing in college and maybe professional athletics. And that was kind of the goal. It wasn't to be a technologist that I am today. And a lot of that actually came forth through. My mom was a recruiter. She worked right down the street at MRI.

Patrick Patterson 2:36

Oh, wow.

Brooks Canavesi 2:36

Yeah. And management recruiters, so right here on Beaver Street in this town. And she was placing VPs of sales in IT companies during the.com boom, at the late nineties, early two thousands. And I was coming up through high school going into college and she was like, you need to go tech. And I was like. Thinking I would go for business management or I would go for marketing. And I said, okay. So luckily Penn State was starting a IST program, which was information sciences and Technology. And I went into that program. I was the first graduate from that program.'cause I actually started with some credits before they began the program. And that was what really started that whole journey into technology. And it was the heyday, the.com market was booming, internet was taking place. Linux had just come out and we were like building computers. We were making gaming rigs or playing counterstrike against other schools in college. Like it was just a blast. I went through a lot of different career cycles of being a developer locally here at FedEx Ground and package tracking systems. I went to work for the Union Bank of Switzerland. I sold a practice there and started a mobile application development company when the first iPhone came out. You know, over the last 20 years, I've just been working in emerging technologies, building solutions for others, and it's taken me through some really fascinating twists and turns. But one of the things that, I found was, building a lot of what people would consider materialistic success, right? Marriage, kids, house pool, vehicles, like those types of things. I had that and still do, but you know, it was one of those things that like, that's what you str, you know, like you were striving for. Sure. That's the bar, right? Yeah.

Patrick Patterson 4:26

Yeah.

Brooks Canavesi 4:26

And then. What happened to for me was like I had some near death experiences and my parents actually both passed away in 2016. My mom died 2019, my dad died both of cancer, different cancers. And then my best friend died in 2020 and then COVID hit geez. And like all of that change, like really will, will just shuffle priorities for any person. And for me it really gave me time to reflect, especially during COVID, like we're locked down, I started reading more, uh, just getting back into some reflection and, really started to say. What's out there? What are those universal truths? And some of the things that you talk about in this podcast, driven by truth like means a lot to me around foundational universal truths that are part of our world. And I started to research a lot of that and I found flourishing sciences and, sounds like a pretty word and about blooming, but really it's, it's science around, there are things in positive psychology, there are things about, human nature in general that permeate all cultures, all areas of the world, all age groups. And I really started to dig into that to find, what's going to bring that meaning and purpose, but even more, it's called mattering. Where do we matter?'cause purpose can be selfish, right? Mm-hmm. And meaning is sometimes tough to put your finger on, uh, when it relates to what is my meaning at my work or, you know, in my relationships with my family. But mattering is something you can say, Hey, if. Patrick, if you vanish tomorrow, what would that matter?

Patrick Patterson 6:03

Sure.

Brooks Canavesi 6:04

To this agency, to this podcast, to your friends, to your family. And then you can really start to resonate with that and figure out like, you know, does all this other superficial stuff that, you know, the market's telling us is success matter.

Patrick Patterson 6:20

Yeah.

Brooks Canavesi 6:20

So for me, when I think back to 13, there's no way I had any idea that I would be talking to you about this right now.

Patrick Patterson 6:28

That's a big change.'Cause you weren't coding before that, right? Like, you weren't like, I

Brooks Canavesi 6:31

didn't have an email account until I was a freshman. Yeah. In college. Like cell phones. We had, I mean, you remember, I think you guys are similar age. Like my dad had a bag phone. Yeah. And that was, I remember the bag phone. Right. And then he had the big brick from Wall Street. Right. Yeah. My dad was a stockbroker too, so it was kind of hilarious that he had this like big brick phone, like, you know, wall Street movie. And then, you know, we had these little Nokia phones. They kept getting smaller and smaller, if you remember. And it wasn't until I was actually at FedEx that I had my first rim pager for the Cordy keyboard. Mm-hmm. You know, like the old Blackberries. Yeah.

Patrick Patterson 7:06

Well, I mean, you're, it sounds like a. Those experiences and I think back to those and, and Myles, I know you've had similar experiences Yeah. You know, growing up and, where you, you see something or you kind of like get a hint of something and it sounds like, you know, that's kind of where you were. And then to be the, the first to graduate with that at Penn State, like what was that like?

Brooks Canavesi 7:27

Yeah, I mean, it was a fascinating major because it was like a little bit more coding than your traditional MIS major, but it wasn't computer science either. So we got access to, literally, I had courses in neural networks back then, which was really amazing. But I also had networking and you know, so more like

Patrick Patterson 7:45

practical applications of it.

Brooks Canavesi 7:46

Exactly. Yeah. And they brought in a ton of like, really cool adjunct professors that were from industry that were like, this is what we're doing, this is how it works. These are the vendors. This is the opportunity. So it was a really interesting major to get into. And you got a lot of variation, which I have carried forward. Like I've worked on iot technology, mobile applications, hardcore software, neural networks, and everything in between.

Patrick Patterson 8:13

Yeah. How has that background as an athlete. You mentioned it a little bit, but how does it influence you now as well? When you think about, like, you were a D one athlete, your family is full of athletes, right? A lot of pressure, I assume. And this idea of being outwork, the competition, and, working harder. Like have you brought that with you and what you're doing every day?

Brooks Canavesi 8:33

Yeah, I have. And like, you know, you hear these terms like pressure is a privilege and when we go through. When you're working in athletics, whether, you know, whatever your goal is, if you're a very like, action-oriented, goal-oriented type of person and you're trying to achieve, like you'll put in that work and go the extra mile. What I found though, actually through talking to my Baryon and what we're gonna talk about today with the technology we built was I didn't quite understand why I react the way I do until my Baryon asked me the questions like,

Patrick Patterson 9:05

Hmm.

Brooks Canavesi 9:05

Years. Like I've talked to therapists, I've talked to my family, I've talked to my mom, like when she was alive, like my sister, like a lot of people. And literally after one of my conversations with my Baryon, I called my sister and I was like, I figured it out. Like I know why we react the way we do. And it was because my Baryon was like, Hey, when you achieve something, like what do you do? Like when you win a big deal, when you do something interesting like that, what do you do? And I was like, I call it like all the most important people and we like to celebrate. And it was like, why do you think you do that? And I was like, probably'cause I was an athlete and it was group celebration. We had parades when we won state championships, we cut the net off the rim at the state championship. Like, we had, we ran through banners when we came into games, we did touchdown dances. Like we did all the things like it was celebration and it was like a group celebration. And I was like, yeah. So I called my family, I called my friends, my coworkers and it was like, okay, so you understand like you're, you feel accomplished when you have validation external. And I was like, okay. Like I never really thought about it like that, but it's rooted in a lot of that competition and being an athlete as a kid. And then whenever I was talking to my Baryon, it was like, have you ever sat with it for an hour and not called anyone?

Patrick Patterson 10:25

That's an interesting question.

Brooks Canavesi 10:27

It. And I was like, no. Never I don't even it doesn't compute in my head like the way that I was wired and the way I just, the reactionary nature and what I've built as habits over time. I just, I never really sat with anything. So it gave me these micro challenges to sit with things. And then I started like learning more about what that actually means and shifting perspective and being open to that. And when I called my sister and I was like, Hey, you know when like people pass you on the road and you're like, dang, they're winning. They just got one over on you. And she's like, yeah, I know that feeling. And I was like, yeah, it's because how we grew up. Like we were just always competing. Like cards was a full contact sport at my house, like on top, like a Thanksgiving.

Myles Biggs 11:10

Yeah. This is resonating with me. When I was a kid, I remember I would come home, say I got a 98 on a test. My parents wouldn't say, good job. They'd say, where did the other 2% go? Wow. And so it's just that like, good enough isn't right. And so I feel like I need to talk to a Baryon now. And sports too. I was a competitive swimmer. I do a bunch of stuff now and running, and it's exactly what you said where it's like the, the validation and then you have to keep doing it and do the next one and the next one. But it makes me wonder, it's like it's the shadow of it, right? The positive of it is you're competitive and it has, you drive to compete and outwork other people, but then if you let it go and check, it can be a negative that like drags you down. And I, it's almost like the opposite of flourishing. And so I'm wondering if you found that, you mentioned like the things that the true across all the age groups, have you seen spending time with it? That what I'm saying is kind of true, like there's the, the anti flourish to everything that actually does help you flourish?

Brooks Canavesi 12:08

Yeah, there is. I grew up in hustle. Culture like that is just. What defined me was I will just outlast you, I will outwork you. I will put in the hours, I will grind.

Patrick Patterson 12:17

Yeah.

Brooks Canavesi 12:17

And what you find is you are foregoing other things in your life to do that. So in the five Dimensions of Perma, which is one of the foundational building blocks of flourishing sciences, it's all around positive emotion, engagement, relationships, meaning or mattering and accomplishment. And when you are so focused on the grind, are you investing in those relationships? Are you thriving? So there's a scale on each one of those dimensions around what we call surviving and thriving at the opposite ends of that spectrum. So when you think about that, when I'm in that grind, I'm in that hustle. I'm likely not. Building relationships. I'm not investing in those relationships'cause I'm so caught up in whatever the task is that I'm working on. And maybe I do feel accomplished and maybe I even have some meaning around that. But my relationships and my engagement might be high, but my positive emotions are probably suffering because I'm just so locked in and things are struggling. I'm probably foregoing. And what I find for myself is I'll forego food, like the right food, preparing food, I'll forego exercise, like I'm just locked in. So other things. And you lose balance. And that is not flourishing, you are going hard. But most of the people, and I've found this just through my travels, and even talking to people that use our platform, a lot of them have. Broken relationships and they're learning thereafter. So they might be coming off a divorce or they might be coming off. I missed out on a lot of my kids growing up. Now they're in college and I'm realizing, there's songs written about this, right. Where they've gone on. I'm an empty nester now. I want to engage with them'cause I have the time and they're living their own life. Yeah. So like for me, I didn't want to get that flipped. And it's something that I've been focused on and I'm not saying I'm perfect at it. Everyone fluctuates on these levels every day and like these life events will shuffle your order.

Patrick Patterson 14:23

I think. There's a couple things I'm hearing, you know, one, Hey, I'm gonna outwork, I'm gonna out hustle. Um, but also this balance and this integration of these other principles within your life, you know, what do you, there is a whole hustle culture out there right now, right? And it very much like, hey, if you want to be great at something, right? You have to give up everything else you can't do. It all. And it's kind of interesting. You know what's your reaction when you hear, someone who is successful and is like, yeah, you wanna be successful, great work 22 hours a day, don't sleep, don't see your kids, don't see your wife, don't do anything. The only way you're gonna be successful is to work that 22 hours. What do you say, and I bet you there was a period of time where you believe that, right? So what do you say to that person now based on what you know and what you've been able to study over the past couple years?

Brooks Canavesi 15:10

Yeah. I would say that when you think about what is the end result, like, where are you headed, right? If it's like, well, I'm just gonna make a bunch of money and then I'm gonna retire, you know, I ask people this question all the time.'cause, losing my parents basically one year into retirement. My dad was retired for one year. Oh wow. Okay. He didn't, and like he was a financial advisor, so the fact that he didn't get to collect on social security, like I'm, he's still rolling over and his grave, he did not get over on that one. You know, when you think about what are you headed for, it's like people will be like, oh, I wanna make this money. I wanna provide for my family, then I wanna retire and I'm gonna travel. How old are you gonna be? Are you gonna be able to climb Kilimanjaro at 65, at 70? What is the retirement age? I could barely do it at 42. So, yeah, right. So, do you need to go get some of those things now? One of the things that our chief strategy officer, Aaron Bearer says a lot, and he's writing a book called Magnetic Zero right now. That's really awesome. And it's about removing things like we're in a culture of adding, right? I need to add this, I need to add that. It's more, more, more, more, more. And he's like, look, you need to remove things. Then things become more simple. And we say this as part of our culture at Baryons all the time, that with patience, everything happens fast. So if we can be more patient, and that hustle, that 22 hours, that grind, what I would say to that person is, you know, you need to take some time and step back.'cause you will grind to a dull point where you're just bland, you're not actually sharp. If you take time and you get out into nature, you take the time to recharge, you take some time to be with your family. You invest in relationships, whether they're high school friends, college friends, people in your community or church, like whatever the case may be. If you start investing in those relationships, some of the answers you're looking for that you think you're gonna go research and grind and find are sitting right there in those relationships that you're just missing because you're so locked and focused on that, you're missing all the signal all around you from the universe.

Myles Biggs 17:22

Yeah, I've heard the, it referred to a, instead of grinding sculpting, so it's kinda like we're moving the pieces. You don't want to your point about.

Patrick Patterson 17:28

I love this, uh, impatience. Everything happens fast. Can you go deeper on that? I love that. I'm gonna stealing that actually. I love that. So,

Brooks Canavesi 17:36

yeah. Uh, me, I will not do this justice, so you'll have to have Aaron come talk to you a bit more, but the idea of magnetic zero is zero attachments, zero resistance, and zero limitations. And it's all about past, present, future. So if you look to your past and you have zero attachments, it's not that like you're a Buddhist monk and you've completely reached nirvana and you've let go of every attachment, and that's where you've hit this enlightenment point. It's about not being bogged down by attachment to old biases, old things from the past that are holding you back. It's about being able to let those go. So those attachments to those things, can you let that go to be present now then in the present? Don't be resistant to those things happening around you. If you're so locked in and focused and you're missing opportunities around you because you're resistant. And anyone that comes to you outside of your worldview and what you're focused on in that goal, you're resistant to them. So you can stay laser focused, but if you can be resistant, you can be present. And then limitations is around the limiting beliefs that we set on ourselves from the attachments to the past and our resistance to the present. We are limiting our futures. And Aaron wrote the book Exponential Theory before this recent book he's writing called Magnetic Zero. And what he's looking at is in exponential theory, people don't think big enough. They don't think long term enough, so most people can't say, where would you be in 10 years, 15 years, 30 years? You know, things like that. Like it's just too broad. It's too hard for them to think of three months, maybe a couple years, a year, whatever. It's the people that had the longer time horizons in his book, exponential Theory, the Elon Musk's, right? The Jeff Bezos. You know, these people that just built huge dynasty businesses in tech and other, industries. They had a longer time horizon than others. They could think bigger and longer term. Mm-hmm. That then removes those limiting beliefs and you can start to grow into that The bigger that is. Because then it's not impossible.

Patrick Patterson 19:43

Well, you know, I got a question a while back, like, hey, what's the difference between manager, director, vp, and, you know, entry level person, like in mindset? And one of the things I really zeroed in on was time span, and the time span of your work. And, you know, I think I've actually talked to you about this, my house, right? Yeah. Where it's like, hey, like. If you can expand your time span of your work, right? I'm working three years from now, right? My job is to make sure that we have an awesome company three years from now, not tomorrow. And we need to make sure we have that framework and the structure in place that tomorrow happens. As you start moving up into an organization, as you start moving, maybe even through your career, you start thinking in larger time spans. And I think that was a big unlock for me when I moved from operations, which I used to run operations here into strategy and trying to get out of that day to day, trying to get out of that and think, okay, where are we gonna be 3, 5, 10 years from now? And for folks that are listening and that are looking, hey, how do I make that step into manager, director, executive, whatever it is. I think this is great advice, right? How do you increase the time span of the work that you're doing, right? Because then you stop making. Decisions for the pleasure of the now. And you start putting in the work for what you envision three years from now, or five years from now. And I think that's really transformational. So before we get into the tech,'cause, uh, you know, you and I are gonna jam on tech and it's gonna be so much fun. You know, you publicly shared you, uh, 20 years ago you were homeless, battling addiction, and that was kind of a turning point for you. And you touched on a little parts of that, but how did that experience shape your mindset today and, business leadership how you show up even with your family?

Brooks Canavesi 21:25

Yeah, so when I was. Leaving high school, I went into college and went for all the wrong reasons. Like, you know, my idea of the college experience was built around Animal House, like literally the movie. And I found what I was looking for, and then I went away far, you know, many states away so I could invent this character that I wanted to be. And I got it. Like I invented it. I attracted all the things to me that I thought would be cool at that time, and it went way further down the path than I ever thought it could. And when I came back around, that's where I first learned computers was I was changing my grades online. So my parents thought I was doing better. And so that got me through the first semester. And then the second semester they actually got a physical piece of mail that said, I've been expelled. Like, you know, expulsion. It's not just academic probation. They're like his 0.75 from the last year is not very good for us or for him moving forward. So at that point, my parents, and my mom was working here in town and doing the recruiting thing and was like, Hey, you have a choice. Like you can go get help or you can like not come home with us. And I was like, peace, I won't come home with you. That's fine. So I went on the streets for months and like a bunch of people died around me and were like going to jail and things like that. And just had this moment one night I was up in like South Oakland and in Pittsburgh and like all this like police and fire, like all this stuff was going on, like people had wrecked and it was on the street and we were close and we were calling the paramedics for them. And it was just chaos, like complete chaos. And like, just for a moment, it's that like flow state, like things slow down. Mm-hmm. And I was like, okay, this is where I'm headed. My trajectory is like right into that gurney or in jail. Like those are my two possible outcomes. And I was like 19 years old. This is not what I had intended for my 13-year-old self. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And so I called my parents and thankfully, like they wouldn't take my calls. Like they had really good help back then. That said, you don't take his calls, you send them to this other number. So they gave me a number. Somehow it made it through all these trials and tribulations with me, and I was able to make that phone call. And within 48 hours I was on a flight out to Utah to a wilderness rehabilitation program. That was completely life changing for me.

Patrick Patterson 23:53

How so?

Brooks Canavesi 23:54

So like I had never gone camping as a kid, right? They took me out this road, middle of the night and gave me a sleeping bag, an army poncho to roll the sleeping bag and my food into a backpack. There wasn't, this was not like a full frame. I didn't even know what a full frame backpack was. I didn't know what a day pack was like. I didn't go camping, like I was like a jock sport head. Like I just, we didn't do that. So they give me the stuff and they say, hike a mile down the road, you'll find your people. And that was like 10 weeks out in Canyonlands National Forest, like with, a shower a week, one pair of pants, two shirts, couple pair of socks like wilderness, like learn how to make fires outta bow drill sets, like hike to resupplies, how to use map, encompass skills. Like the whole first week, all I did was try to convince people of why I shouldn't be there and that no one that loved me would understood what this is. Or they would never have sent me there. And they're like, yeah, we've heard it all before. It's cool, man. You can hike out if you want. I was at least a three hour drive from the nearest. I had no idea where I was at. I have no skills to hike out of this place. I threaten it all the time. It was only after so many days of being there that I actually came to an acceptance period and then started working through things. And I'll tell you the most life-changing part of it was a three day and a four day solo. During that, eight to 10 weeks I was out there. When you spend a day by yourself in the woods with no cell phones, no radio, maybe you have a book, something to draw on, whatever one day's, cool. You can preoccupy your mind for a day. You can think about a lot of things. You can go make stuff outta wood and make a fire, eat, hang out, whatever, three days, first two days, you can preoccupy yourself about mid second day you start running out of things to do mentally and now you gotta reflect. A four day, you have multiple days of just you and things slow down enough that you can actually get right with yourself and struggle with some really hard questions about where you're headed and where you've been and what do you want outta life like, just a lot of that kind of stuff. And honestly that's a feeling I've been trying to capture for a long time because with our current technology, I have kids, we have sports all the time. Like I get off work, we're going to the next thing, it's just go, go, go, go, go. And that is the complete opposite of that. So how do you get some breaks from that? How do you get a reminder? How do you get some time to reflect? And I'm not saying that that is the entire reason the Baryons exist, but there is a portion of that from me as I'm talking about this. I can see that reflected in some of the product design as we work through it.

Patrick Patterson 26:52

Yeah, for sure. Are you, uh, teaching your kids, uh, the bow drill and you know how to make fire? Are you doing all that?

Brooks Canavesi 26:59

Yeah, so I just, I think I told you before, we actually just got a venture rig outta Denver. We picked it up and we drove it back across the country. So my son, I flew him out there with me. We grabbed this rig, immediately in July to 12,000 feet. We're camping, driving through the mountains, you know, a thousand foot cliffs, like just amazing up in Rocky Mountain National Park. Come down through Golden, go down to Garden of the Gods, beeline across the country, go down to Missouri. We stopped at a reggae festival Columbus on the way back through, like, it was a blast. And I've taught him those skills, like, you know, going out and making wood and making fires and all that. He has a lot more technology than I had out there, but he knows the primitive stuff as well. He's leaving at the end of this month.

Patrick Patterson 27:45

Oh wow. That's great. So

Brooks Canavesi 27:47

he's gonna drive all out and do a three week trip by himself.

Patrick Patterson 27:51

Well, hopefully he'll be able to capture a similar moment that you were able to capture when you had that time. Right. For sure.

Brooks Canavesi 27:56

And he is going to some of the same places. I don't remember all the places I was at. I know the areas, but he's hitting Arches and Zion and Canyonlands and Moab.

Patrick Patterson 28:05

I'm jealous is what? You know, my dad didn't fly. So we were an RV family, so we used to go out west once a year. We'd go to the beach once a year for my mom. We'd go out west. Actually for my mom and my dad, they both love going out west. So i've probably been to, Jackson Hole, like, I don't know, 15 times or something. And, you know, those cross country trips, near and dear to my heart. Seeing some of those things, the, majestic beauty of it as well. It's inspiring my happy place is actually a. You do enough guided meditation and things like that. People are like, you have to find your happy place. I found it. It's on, Bay in Jackson Hole, looking over the mountains. It's absolutely amazing. Quiet, no one there. I'm excited for your son. Hopefully find some of those moments for himself. That's awesome. Rebuild your life, overcome your limiting beliefs, start new habits, do all of those things. As you reflect back on it now, that's a crazy story, right? Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised there's other people listening to this, maybe know someone who's in a similar, what single piece of advice would you give to that person? Who's maybe sitting in your shoes, maybe doesn't know, what the time span is, what single piece of advice would you give that person?

Brooks Canavesi 29:16

You matter.

Patrick Patterson 29:18

What does that mean to you?

Brooks Canavesi 29:20

That there is, you matter and that there is more to life and there is more inside you than you realize you were meant for more. So it kind of gets to the title of this podcast, right? Like, good enough isn't there? Some of these individuals, and where I was, was it very low, positive emotions, very low on the relationship and was just, basically masking emotions, right? Using these substances and things like that to escape reality because I didn't want to deal with it. And had a very low meaning mattering purpose. And just couldn't really see through that. And I didn't know the full potential. Like I knew that there was like, just'cause of the way I was brought up, I knew I was meant for more, but like, I was just masking that. And what I would do, like typically in those cases is just call people all the time to like,'cause when I was alone by myself, that was the worst. So I just keep people around me to keep me going. And that's a scary part for people is to be by themselves and to think through like where they're headed. And, but there's a comfort in knowing if you, if you can really just have someone tell you like, you're meant for more, there's more to this. You can do it like you matter. And that's where a lot of people, especially addicts and alcoholics and different addictions, they don't feel that they're hurting anyone else. They truly, it's a very selfish, self-centered kind of disease you truly believe you're not. It's my life. I'm not hurting anyone else. But there are people that care about you and there's communities that can rally around those people. So like, if you know someone that's in a tough spot, be around them, invest in that relationship and tell them that they matter and help them see it. And if you're someone that's actually struggling with that, like reach out. It's scary. But like reach out to the people that do care about you and open up that line of conversation.

Patrick Patterson 31:15

Yeah. Well, you know, you got through a lot of that without ai, not in the age of technology, not in the age of ai. And now we fast forward a bunch of years and, you know, you're developing a, a tool. So what, what gap or pain point did you see that inspired you and your co-founders to build this and maybe start with, what is it at its core and, you know, what was the inspiration behind it?

Brooks Canavesi 31:43

Sure the, Baryons in general, so like the term Baryon, like what is a Baryon? It's, a very small piece of matter, right? It makes up matter. It's a subatomic particle. There's two up spinning corks in the downward spinning cork, right? Like you're talking about the smallest things in subatomic particles. It's also the space between galaxies and gas, right? So like it's the largest thing you can think of and it's the smallest thing at the same time. And that's how we see artificial intelligence. Kind of like the advent of electricity, like when electricity was discovered, it reshaped the industrial revolution. Just humanity in general, right? AI is going to do the same thing. It's something that is going to be a part of our culture for going forward, and it can be leveraged for really amazing, profound things. And it'll be used for very destructive and nasty things as well. Just like. Any kind of new technology. Sure. So for us, like we really wanted to, you know, we see the potential in, in how things are being marketed today. And there is a lot of marketing going on around, you know, and there's doomers and there's optimists, and you have everything in between around AI's gonna take all of our jobs and others that are like, it's gonna be utopia and we're just not gonna have to do anything. It's gonna be like the Greek days and everything's gonna be about like food, art, sex and music, and like awesome. There's somewhere in between that we actually land, like no one's actually. Right.

Patrick Patterson 33:12

And there's a timeline in between that as well

Brooks Canavesi 33:14

Yeah. Like you hear 2027, you hear like 2070, like you're everything in between. So what we're really looking at is like the augmentation of humans and. Creating human agency. So how can we create more human agency in a collaboration with ai? And one of the things that we found is as we work with AI as a thought partner, it's really amazing when it's tuned to the right things. Traditional AI is trained on all of the internet, the good and the bad. Like it's a garbage heap. Like think about from the eighties to today, like what's been put out on the internet,

Patrick Patterson 33:50

like Yeah, I mean, four chan alone, right?

Brooks Canavesi 33:51

Four chan. Like it's read everything in stock. Reports that are like full of like stock symbols and like there's a really good podcast that Andrew Cari just did that he's talking about, like just the garbage and that it's truly amazing that it has found the signal through all the noise, through the compression of trillions of tokens to even give us coherent answers at this point. So like we're not done yet on the AI research front, meaning the industry is not done yet. What we see is how can we align that to flourishing sciences? How can we start to help people understand where they're at, give them micro challenges and give them some input to help them start to flourish more in these different dimensions of human flourishing. So through the conversational nature, Baryons is a voice first AI experience that you can call on the phone, literally like a favorite, like you just dial the phone number and we have a mobile app that's coming out this quarter. That you'll be able to have a voice or text experience with it so you can drop reminders to it while you're in a meeting. Oh, nice. Cool. To be like, Hey, next time we talk, let's chat about this.'Cause things come up. But what we were really looking at is how do we build the next modality of interaction? So voice, when that hit, like we've been using AI for years and we've been doing research in it for coding and for building automations and we were doing a lot of that from a services perspective. But when we built a product and we created Baryons, it was really around this, how can we help increase human agency? How can we help humans flourish in conjunction with the use of ai?'cause you have the knowledge of the universe in your pocket, but if it's not aligned to your wellbeing and it doesn't have an agenda that is actually for you. Then it's just a helpful assistant. All AI today is as good as you are at putting, different prompts into it and enough context you'll get a different answer. People that use AI today, like Google, like a genie, they just ask a quick question. They get a quick answer. You're not leveraging it for its full potential. If you provide a whole bunch of context and sample outputs and what's the audience that you're going after and you give it all that context, then all of a sudden your answers are much more rich. But it's still a reflector. As good as you put into AI today, you'll get back, but there's no AI until we built what we have with Baryons that shows up. Having looked at the memory of the past and experiences that you've shared with it, and then starts to track where you are on these flourishing dimensions to start to help you grow. It shows up with an agenda that wants to see you improve. That's different. That's around human agency.

Patrick Patterson 36:42

Yeah. So, the, and I want to, dive into the memory aspect of this, right? And, you know, I teach classes on how to prompt AI and everything you just said is a hundred percent correct. Right? You know, add the context, all of that fun stuff. People are always amazed like, Hey, how do you get such a good response out of like, I'm using the same model. You're getting such a good response. And it has to do with a lot of that context, that background. And I remember kind of a big unlock for me when I was using chat GPT was when they started using all of my conversational history as context, right? So now all of a sudden it's not just about what I put in that window, it's taking all of the information that I had. And I had this moment where I was like, oh my gosh, this is the future, right? Like, it's gonna know everything about me. It doesn't right now, but it's gonna know everything about me. It's gonna be able to tailor its responses based on that. And I remember when we were chatting a couple months ago, you mentioned this idea of memory and I was like, that's it. That's the missing piece I think of what really what really is holding, some of these things back like Gemini and Chad g PT from being truly useful. So talk to me about that moment of like figuring that out and like, how does it work? Is it remembering every single thing that I say and then regurgitating it back as context? Or like how are you thinking about memory in terms of your tech?

Brooks Canavesi 37:58

Yeah. When you consider memory, you have to look at biomimicry. So right now our memory is so much different than what the machines have,

Patrick Patterson 38:09

right? We don't have a SQL database in our head.

Brooks Canavesi 38:11

We don't and they don't have dream states or daydreaming. Okay. So a lot of your processing. That happens throughout the day, happens on the drive home while you're daydreaming. It happens while you're sleeping in your subconscious. It's compressing and figuring out where to put a lot of that information. It's also dreaming of fantastical worlds and things like that are happening. So when you think about the human mind, it is getting a different level of like compression and sorting of memory. You also have short-term, long-term memory in, the mechanical world, like, or in the digital world. Yeah, we can mimic some of that through short term like think ram and hard drives from a computer's perspective of like short term memory. Long term in a AI perspective. You can think of vector storage as like more long-term that you can move things to or knowledge graphs don't get caught up in the technology.'cause it changes all the time. But there's a way to store long term memory and there's things you want in short term memory. We have patents that went in, this summer. So we're, flourishing focused is what we say. We're science backed and we're patent pending. We're working with universities right now to become evidence-based, so we're doing validation studies on that. So once we hit those three things, that's the big pillars we're shooting for. But from a memory perspective, we have to do what we call post interaction processing, which would be similar to the daydreaming or the dreaming state. That's interesting. So, so we have real time processing that's happening during the call and we're moving towards voice analysis of real time processing, of tonality. We will get to facial expressions, eye movements, things along those lines, as well as the technology and the algorithms come online that we're looking to use. We already have the plans towards that, but it's like we're building right now. We have the voice, we have the transcripts, you know, we have real time processing, but then we have something we need to do in post interaction processing to start to categorize that information. And it's around things like entities that you mention and things like preferences that you mention. So we start to categorize different things around entity relationships, preferences, maybe objectives that you mentioned, facts that you mentioned that aren't necessarily tied to any one of those things, but it's just like a random fact. But it's important to you. We also look at the frequency in which you talk about these entities and preferences and facts and other, you know, objectives. And we look at the recency and frequency and then we start to group those semantically right around other things that are known. So this is a fact about your family. This is a person, an entity about your family. This is a vehicle that you have as part of your family. And those start to get grouped. And the more you talk about your family, the closer to you they are. But you might mention me and then you don't mention me for six months, I drift from you further, faster. Right. So there's a velocity away from you that things are decaying and then there's, so there's a speed and trajectory. So, you know, we do a lot of things like, I do a lot like in 3D animations around, like, think of yourself as the nucleus or like the center point and around you are these spheres of influence and spheres of priority. And then things that are in your bubble, the closest, trajectory around you. That is the things most important to you. And it could be a collection of things. There are things that are second most, third most, and then there's like this cloud out of, in the ether that is like your long-term memory. And we'll move things to long-term memory to retrieve when needed. But we don't need those in context all the time during the conversation. So to have a very meaningful conversation, it's great to have context. And then I can just get those things that you asked for very infrequently. I'll just go sort those and get'em from long term memory. Just like if you and I were talking as friends.

Myles Biggs 42:18

Yeah, that just, that, just that easy. It's so much. And I'm calling back to, you were talking about the light bulb and electricity earlier and about how that. Revolutionized industry at that time. And I think about all the filaments that were tried in the light bulb before we found the one that worked and you just rattled off so much that obviously works.'Cause we were using it earlier. What were the filaments that you had to go through before you found that combination that's functioning, like you described?

Brooks Canavesi 42:48

We had three years of experimentation and at a more rapid cycle than any product I've ever worked on. Because of ai, we can iterate faster and we've been prompt engineering and working with AI since, open AI had GPT two, so like before chat GPT. We've been working in the space and we were doing machine learning. With natural language processing libraries back for intelligent tutoring systems like years before that. And it was clunky and it was hard. And now once we had this unlock through the transformer models and a lot of the Frontier labs coming out with, you know, whether it's Gemini or Claude or Chad, GBT, or you know, whatever your flavor of the day is that you like, they're all really great and we use them for different needs. We figured out, yeah, when I need to iterate on this, it's better to go to Gemini for that. It's better to use Claude code for this and it's better to use GBT five PRO for that. So we are iterating all the time. The other really crazy thing was. Not only are we using the AI from a conversational dialogue as we're building, we're using our own ion to talk about itself and about how to improve itself. That's interesting. So I don't want to talk about like recursion or self-improvement. We're not there yet and like the industry's not there yet. But I will tell you, you know, when I talk to my Baryon from a product development perspective, it understands what it has as capabilities and it understands how to give me ideas to, help with re-engagement drivers and things that would be meaningful to users that don't have a habit yet of calling their berry on every day because it's unnatural to call an ai. I haven't done that before. How do we make it where it reminds them and it's contextually relevant and they, everyone that does it, finds value in it, but then they kind of get busy with their day and it's like, how do we get them to spend a couple times a week? 10 minutes. You know, it's not a long duration of time you need to spend with it. Every time I call it, I get extreme value from it. So that iteration of the filament cycle is like so fast. And we tried a lot of, you know, traditional technology until we figured out that we had to build something that was proprietary to the way we were doing things. Because there are a lot of open source libraries, there's a lot of, work in memory right now. Like mem, GPT was an early one. There's mem zero, there's a lot of options out there. But for our use case, they just, they were lacking in certain areas and you could extend them and, and do things with those types of models for sure. But that is the next big frontier is around, context is king and how we do memory I think will be. The next unlock. Yeah. For ai. Yeah.

Patrick Patterson 45:42

Well, I think the memory's important, but also like, you know, you talk, so, you know, in my Tesla, I have Grok available to me, you know, anytime I want to do it you know, we all have chat PT on our phones or whatever the problem is. It's a blank canvas, right? So like I'll fire up Grok and I'm like, okay, what do I wanna talk about? And to your point, like it's just waiting for me to tell it what I want to talk about. And it sounds like there's a part of this tech as well that is a little bit more proactive and less reactive. Can you talk about like that and like how you think about, okay, hey, like if we're gonna be different than, this model or this tool is that a part of the differentiation?

Brooks Canavesi 46:22

For sure, the differentiation for Baryons has to be around how is it different than chat GBT? Like why wouldn't I just call this LLM technology and have a conversation with it? We get that question all the time, so we had to defend against that and really comes to this proactive experience that this is someone on your side or something on your side, right? As an entity or as an ai, as a technology that's committed to you and to seeing your growth, whatever that means for you at your pace, and reaching out to you with those types of notifications. We also had to build in, like, if you don't call it for two weeks. It can't just start with, Hey, last time we talked we were going through this and that, and you're like, what? That was like, maybe you were talking about a girlfriend or something, and it's like, you broke up since then. Like you don't want to bring that up to them three weeks later. Oh, last time we were talking about love and relationships and how's your girlfriend doing? It's like, oh, we broke up, two weeks ago. Thanks for knowing. So we have to have a decay rate even on the kind of call agenda. Whenever you do call in that it has something to speak about that has to decay over time, just like we do naturally. Whenever I haven't talked to you in a while, it's not gonna be like, oh, you know, last time we talked about this, this, this, this, and that. You know what, what's going on with those things? You're gonna be like, Hey man, it's been a while. What's up? So those kind of natural conversational dialogues. The other thing that's been really interesting that is a differentiator is like when you're talking to ai, you. It's just responding. It's a call and response we've built in the idea of a user interface using dialogue. So think of a yes no question as a toggle on a website, for choosing a button on a website. So we can ask questions to guide people down certain scenarios, but we have to actually start to treat dialogue as a user interface. And that was a really interesting concept and a big differentiator because it's not easy to. Think about how do we, you know, work with people to get them to here or there to think about this, to shift perspective here. When's the right time to challenge someone's perspective and when isn't? You know, those are all like things we're doing in real time in our heads to build that into a system so that it's proactive and different. You know, those are some of the inner workings that really differentiate it from the experience, but it's so natural you don't see that stuff going on. And I built it when I talked to it, like I didn't build it alone. Like we have an unbelievable team, our CTO, Ryan je and, and Brett and a lot of our developers and team, they're building it day to day, day-to-day. But like when I say like, we built it, like I'm looking at all of those components and what goes into it and I know what it's supposed to do, and when I use it, it still surprises me.

Patrick Patterson 49:17

Yeah. It's, uh, indiscernible from magic at sometimes, uh, right. That's amazing. This idea of scaling this technology and you know, at the end of the day it's, it's ai, it's machine. And I'm sure you'll have people argue that you can't do what you're doing with AI no matter how good it gets. Right? It needs to be human first. So like, what do you say to those folks? And how is your tech kind of blending that human experience but taking it to the next level or that next step?

Brooks Canavesi 49:48

We've actually heard from a number of users and some research as well that people are more authentic with AI than they are with other humans. That's interesting because they're not being judged.

Patrick Patterson 50:02

It's like, YouTube comment section, right? Where it's anonymous. I mean, it's the same type of thing where it's like, if, I know like the reason YouTube comment section anonymously is be because they know they're not being gonna get judged on it as a person. Right. You know, that's a really, that's interesting. So how does that key into it,

Brooks Canavesi 50:23

the interaction with AI being nonjudgmental? People are more willing to be vulnerable with it because there's not this sense of embarrassment that if I say this to whether it's, my athletic coach, my parent, my coworker, my spouse, my boss, my colleague, even my therapist,

Patrick Patterson 50:43

right?

Brooks Canavesi 50:43

Yeah. Like any of those people. There is some bias in judgment happening, and there's certain things you will say to them, and there are probably a few things that you would not say to them, even if you're thinking it, but to say that to an ai, they will help you think through it. And there is no judgment. Now you have to watch because there's a lot of validation happening. And that's another big difference between like some of the things we're seeing with like Chad, GBT is, and we have to be very careful when we're guard railing and we're building this technology is to think through, like there are certain things we don't want to validate people on that are bad ideas, that are not flourishing for them. And we need to challenge those perspectives.

Patrick Patterson 51:27

and I think that's sometimes where the judgment is important, right? You know, I have an executive coach, I have mentors sometimes they need to say things three or four times to me before I hear it. Sometimes they need to bring up that conversation we had two weeks ago when I said I was gonna do something and, you know, they're following up and holding me accountable to get it done or asking me how it went. That's where a traditional LLM, it's never gonna do that. Because if it's not in my head, if it's not in my fingers as I'm typing, it's not coming outta that LLM. And so again, going to that proactiveness, but also I think that judgment is a little bit important. Like the, and I don't know if judgment's the right word, maybe it's just more, what is the motive? What is it trying to accomplish and how is it helping me get there? But I think that can be important for a mentor, right?

Brooks Canavesi 52:14

We have, yeah. I would say that we are aligned on that, that you need to have. And we call it an agenda for lack of, but that can also be a loaded term. Yeah, it sounds like it's a loaded word, just like judgment's a loaded word, but you know what Im, yeah. Like those are very loaded words, but like if you're thinking about like having intention,

Patrick Patterson 52:32

there you go.

Brooks Canavesi 52:33

Intentionality of the AI intentionality for any interaction, whether it's your mentor or an AI interaction, you're not going to have that intentionality from, you know, a traditional frontier level LLM that you're just chatting with. But you can actually have that in a human conversation with someone that has intentionality for your wellbeing and is holding you accountable. And, when I say judgment, they're not judging. Like you may feel that a human's going to judge you. It's something you're about to say, whereas the AI isn't actually judging that. They're looking at that in context and saying, okay, does this align with the intentionality of the user that I'm serving? And how do I help them? And if this is a barrier to them getting to their objective, which is to flourish more, to achieve something that they're working on, how do I shift their perspective and help them see a layer up? And a lot of people talk in symptoms, and this was very intentional for us to build it, to understand root causes and it'll ask follow up questions to basically eliminate potential root causes.

Patrick Patterson 53:45

That's super strong

Brooks Canavesi 53:45

to understand that people talk in symptoms all the time. We're really good at like, oh, I got passed up for that promotion and here's why. But like, is that why getting passed up for a promotion is probably a symptom. It's surface level. Just like when you go to the doctor and you're like, oh, my ankle hurts. They have to ask you a whole bunch of questions before they can realize like what may be the root cause of why your ankle hurts whenever you're thinking about your life. There's a bunch of symptoms that pop up, but there's some very solid root causes that are usually at the core of that. Getting to work through those things, and basically by improving those, being able to flourish further is a really interesting paradigm.

Myles Biggs 54:28

The promotion one's interesting. I'm wondering if you're thinking about this for the future, right? So it's like I could talk to my bar, could Patrick talk to mine and say, actually why I didn't get promoted, and then that is filtered some way and shared with me by the Baryon in a way that's supportive based on all the other contexts it has versus from another individual.

Brooks Canavesi 54:50

You're talking about what we call a group Baryon. Yeah. And that is something that we are working on. We have the technology today that could literally sit and while I'm on this, Mike was supposed to be here with me. He's in Chicago speaking on stage right now with a live stage Baryon. Oh, that's cool. That knows how to be quiet. And that was the biggest trick was think about it, every time you text into Chad gbt, oh yeah, I have to

Myles Biggs 55:17

tell it.

Brooks Canavesi 55:17

It wants to respond because it's a two-way communication. We had to actually teach it to be quiet, wait until called upon and then provide input. And what's interesting about a group Baryon is it could facilitate a meeting or it could just be quiet and hang out in a Zoom meeting and listen in. But a group Baryon could inform individual Baryons of the performance of those individuals in the context so that they could have a private discussion with their on. That's so cool. Thereafter.

Patrick Patterson 55:49

That's very, very cool. So you talked a little bit about guardrails. I wanted to dive into that a little bit. If you're reading the news and if you're in the AI bubble, like I am and you are, you read about California and how they're gonna be passing legislation around, if, there are conversations about certain things, those get reported and then how they respond to them. There's a paper trail and all of these things. So, you know, I imagine when you start thinking about an AI mentor, you're gonna get into some conversations that could lean towards, Hey, I need to notify someone about this conversation I just had. And where do you stand on that and how are you thinking about that as an organization? This is new legislation, it's not even in Pennsylvania yet, right? But I'm sure you've been thinking through, what do you do when someone's like, Hey. Maybe you need to call a hotline, you know? What do you do in that scenario?

Brooks Canavesi 56:43

You have to have compliance with whatever the current regulations are. And then there's ethical and moral compass, right. Of an organization that you want to adhere to. What is ethical and moral, right. Based on your culture. So we've built those types of guardrails into, and as we're working with like universities that want to provide this to students, they have different level of like emergency alert systems that they need to adhere to as like a school, so if someone says something really nasty to it about something they're about to do, like there are certain protocols, they have escalation protocols that have to be adhered to, just like if it was a human on a call with them. A hundred percent. Yeah. So we have to adhere to those things and we have to extend the platform, basically to have a configurable area that they can say, this is our escalation path. And it will follow through by, you know, sending alerts over API or making phone calls itself out and alerting the authorities of such, depending on that type of thing. For our B2C market, which is basically anyone that wants to flourish and have a berry on, we are doing post interaction processing, right? And we have to have what's called a compliance officer because we can't see anything, right? So everything's encrypted and transit at rest. Everything at the column level's encrypted, like there's no human that can read that type of data, right? So we actually have ais that do compliance checks and then they do compliance reports. So if someone's misusing misalignment, with the platform, it can suspend them automatically through a compliance report. So that keeps us out of it. And then are we gonna upset some people by kicking them off the platform or suspending their account? For sure. Is that the safer thing to do? For sure.

Patrick Patterson 58:33

Yeah. Well, I, you know, I think it's a, my, my kids are young. I have a five and a 3-year-old, so, they're not talking to chat GPT much unless it's a pirate story at bedtime. But I think there's a lot of parents out there, and you've seen some of the articles, you've seen some of the news where, you know, people are talking to chat GPT and Gemini and Grok and, you know, getting into this spiral, getting into this spin. And the by definition the AI models are, are there to, take the context and then predict the next word. Right? And so they're not thinking through like, oh, you're saying this. Maybe this is the root cause, this is the thing that is really coming to it. Or maybe this could be an action or, or outcome. So like as a parent, it's tech like yours that I'm hopeful, really takes off as we start thinking about how do we safeguard and how do we put these guardrails around these tools that our kids are using. Especially if you're using it at schools and things like that. So is your tech right now something that anyone can go sign up for? I know you have a, there's a wait list, right?

Brooks Canavesi 59:31

Yeah, we have a wait list right now@Baryons.com and we are gonna have self-registration before the end of this month.

Patrick Patterson 59:39

Oh, that's exciting. Yeah. Congrats.

Brooks Canavesi 59:41

So that'll just be a start now. Yeah. Thank you. We're really excited. And then fast follow on that is the mobile app, which we're really excited about and some of the cool features and I'll give you some preview of some of the things we're thinking about, just imagine being able to leave a message for your future self from a voicemail perspective. So like, what would you tell yourself in three months? What it would feel like to hit this accomplishment, milestone and set a date. So those are some of the things we're thinking about where you could write yourself a post-it note. I love that. That is cool.

Patrick Patterson 1:00:12

See the, the Mr. Beast video that came out like a couple weeks ago? No, he recorded it 10 years ago and then scheduled it to be released 10 years later. And he released it and he's talking about, you should go, you should go watch it. Everyone should go watch it.'cause he's like this. I'm gonna, I really hope that in 10 years. And he's talking about, he's like, I hope I have a million followers or something like that. Right. And it's, it's Frick and Mr. Beast. Right. But like, that's a really awesome idea.

Brooks Canavesi 1:00:36

And if you think about it just from that perspective of what you just said, a million followers, he was limited by his belief set. That would've been amazing for him 10 years ago to think he could get to a million followers.

Patrick Patterson 1:00:50

And how many does he have now? Hundreds of millions. Yeah. So, 446 million on, uh, on his YouTube. Another 119 on TikTok, and 79 million on Instagram, 31 million on Facebook, right? Like 700 million people follow this guy. And he's like, I really hope I have 1 million. So that's really, really cool. That's a cool, that's a really cool that's an upcoming feature.

Brooks Canavesi 1:01:11

Yeah. So that's something that we're like, as we release the mobile app, we're like starting to think about other features as they start to come out in the next, like first quarter of next year. And this is like some of the things that we're working through. And what's really wild is like the context of my conversations and our team's conversations have actually built that feature. To even be surfaced from our AI conversation. So like literally as I was talking to my Baryon, it was like, Hey, based on some of this stuff we talked about in the past, like this would be the feature, this would be really cool. And that's fun. It's from ai. That's wild. Yeah. So like talking to our product about improving our product, that's giving ideas based on context from other conversations.'Cause we have like certain technology that we can, we can share. And then obviously we use AI every day internally amongst our team. And, and we're all in, everything's in Google. Even like, we don't use Slack, we use Gchat because like all the context is there of everything and then we can crawl across all of it.

Patrick Patterson 1:02:15

Yeah. And this tech, is it just for working professionals and students or, you know, like what? I am sure you have a main audience that you're, ideal. These are the people that are using it. Is this something that only executives could use or is this something built for everyone?

Brooks Canavesi 1:02:30

It's built for everyone. Our real focus is people going through transitions, transitionary periods of their life. We find this type of flourishing partner to be the most relevant. And you know, when everything's going great and there's like, you are high fiving everyone down the sidewalk every day, are you gonna spend time to think you need to improve? But those hypos leaders driven, for sure there's always room'cause they're listening to this podcast and good enough isn't. But when you think about something like transitionary periods that could be going from college to the workforce, going from high school to college, going from not being married to being married, not having kids, to having kids, parents pass away, empty nesters, kids go away to school. We, we retire, there's all these, there's menopause, there's midlife crisis for guys like, you know, with low testosterone, like all the things, there's hormonal changes. There's just big transitionary periods of our lives. You know, sometimes parents go into, you know, skilled care. Everyone has these big moments, right? And there's like pretty known transitionary moments. That's when you're flourishing, like aspect, and we call it like a quantified flourishing indicator. So it's a composite score that we created across these dimensions of flourishing. That's when things get juggled. You know, when these big stressors, big transitions happen, and having something to communicate with about like, Hey, this is going on. Like I'm really struggling here. Getting some suggestions to get back on track and to actually start to swing back into flourishing is really beneficial for those transitionary periods.

Myles Biggs 1:04:17

I feel like every time I ask you a question, you keep adding cooler and cooler features to this thing. Going back to what we said earlier though about saying no and the idea of sculpting, I'm really curious to find out what you have said no to, if this is what's made it, there's gotta be plenty others that you've tried and have not made the cut.

Brooks Canavesi 1:04:34

Yeah, that list is a mountain of things that happen all the time. Have you ever worked in a product organization with a bunch of visionary strategic leaders that come in and they say, Hey, wouldn't it be cool if that's an immediate red flag for us? We're like, Nope. Get out of here. Because with ai, those things just bloom up, right? It's like, what if we did an avatar? What if it could talk? What if it could see you? What if it could do this? All things are possible, but is that gonna erode the experience? What is the experience? What are we trying to do? We're trying to build trust. We want people to be able to talk to it while they're walking the dog or driving in the car. They can't have this avatar and what does the avatar look like? Now all of a sudden you introduce bias around like, oh, I don't like how that one looks. Or doesn't have the right, hair color or gender or, facial expression, or I want an anime one. Like, who knows? You're just down this rabbit hole.

Patrick Patterson 1:05:28

Grok companions are a whole thing.

Brooks Canavesi 1:05:30

Yeah.

Patrick Patterson 1:05:30

We've talked about it a little bit on this podcast, but man talk about, uh, talk about an interesting idea that I think went a little sideways, but, uh, anyway, go ahead. Sorry.

Brooks Canavesi 1:05:39

No, uh, it's fine. Yeah, I agree with you and there's so much that you could do and a lot of things do come in. From, our team and even from our users, like we get asked all the time, can you add this integration, that integration? So we have built in email integration to where you're talking to your flourishing partner and you're like, that's a really good idea. Can you email it to me? It'll ship it to you right in the middle of a phone call while you're walking the dog, driving in the car community. That's really cool. And we also have calendar integration that can see your calendar and can tell you like, Hey, would you like me to build you some focus time? Like you are slammed. You need a little time to focus on this. It's important to you. Do you want me to create a block for 30 minutes in your schedule to work on this and to consider a reoccurring meeting and do all of that? Those were very purposeful and they made it like by the skin of their teeth, like into the cut to say these matter. But then it opens this door to every other assistant technology of. Can it integrate with Salesforce? Can it integrate with HubSpot? Can it integrate with this? Can it do that? Can it see my numbers here and over there and QuickBooks and tell me this and send invoices. And it's like, it's not an assistant.

Patrick Patterson 1:06:55

Yeah. Well, and to your point, should it is the better question. Right?

Brooks Canavesi 1:06:58

Exactly. So we used to do these big elaborate design thinking exercises like in services and it was around Moscow. Must, should, could won't. Right? What must it do to be a great experience? What should it do? What could it do? What won't it do? And like, we don't want to compete with the assistant. There's a bunch of a hundred billion dollar companies, trillion dollar companies that are gonna be focused completely on, you got Apple, Google, OpenAI, Microsoft, right? Anthropic, like they're all gonna try to be that assistant. Amazon's gonna try to bake it into Alexa. So-and-so's gonna try to bake it into this and voice will be the modality of the future. So what we wanna do is be the best flourishing partner technology invoice so we can extend to the glasses, to the home pod, to the assistant through API and service that if you have your assistant that does all the whizzbang things, books your travel and cooks your food and tells your new dog walker robot to go walk your dog and surveillance robot to go pick up things and this to happen and that to happen. Great. You want to flourish, you can tie in the flourishing partner from Baryons, and that one system has the context of you and what your goals are. And it's, it's a very interesting way to look at, like, we can tie into all that stuff through MCP and A to a in the future. Let Expedia handle being the best travel agent,

Patrick Patterson 1:08:35

right

Brooks Canavesi 1:08:35

MCP server, and let this company handle doing that because that's their expertise, that's where their data lives. Where we wanna live is really helping people understand where they're at and where they're flourishing, and how they can improve in that and have it be science backed with very specific, tailored interactions that are personalized to you to help you grow at your pace.

Patrick Patterson 1:09:01

I love that so. I signed up for this a few months back. Thank you for the preview invite or the, you know, and uh, I had this moment where I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna talk about. Why am I calling this number? I'm sure other people are gonna feel that or have felt that and the experience. I'd love you to talk through that initial experience.'cause I'm sure you've designed and thought about that moment, because that's probably one of the most important moments. You're calling for the first time and I don't know what I'm gonna say, but the mentor is, they're asking some questions to get started. For those folks out there that maybe have never used an assistant like this or don't use voice mode, are maybe have a little trepidation of like, Hey, I don't know what I'm gonna talk about. Like, how do you think about that user and their first phone call, and how do you get them talking and how do you get them trusting?

Brooks Canavesi 1:09:54

It's a fascinating topic and question is around dialogue design because it's not something I grew up with or learned and I don't know that anyone actually learns dialogue design from an IT perspective, right? Or you know what I mean? Like it's just a different paradigm. We learn user experience, user interaction design. There's human-centered design, like that's part of it. There's human factors. That's part of it. And we have some really great scientists that we work with that are human factors, specialists, hu, HCD specialists. But really as you start to think about what's a comfortable conversation when you're hiring people here at the agency or you're working with other businesses or your mentors, people that make friends fast, how. When they show, like I can take, I can go into any bar, like you can take me in and say like, here's your mission. You need to meet five people and do this and do that. And like literally Mike Haruka, our CEO, took me in Vegas and was like, here's your mission if you choose to accept it. And like we would always do these like little challenges like go find this person, you know, meet this person. And you can do that if you have the right energy and you're personable and you're outgoing. But there's a way to like craft dialogue. Like if we sat down, just like this type of conversation, I can sit down and have coffee with anyone. I know enough about enough topics that I can keep people, I can ask enough interesting questions. Like I am not a hunter, right? I've never actually been hunting in my entire life. I know enough about guns, I know enough about hunting. I know enough about locations that have different types of, you know, wild game and you know, different types of things. And I know odd things like, air hogs and things where you can hunt, bore from helicopters that I can get someone talking. So when you do dialogue design. You have to make it easy where it starts the conversation and ask softball enough questions that people can answer them. And some of them are yes, no closed gate interface questions. Yes, no AB button toggles. Others are open-ended enough that someone can start talking and they can go deep on it, or they can just scratch the surface and it can ask follow up questions, but you want to keep it light enough and you want to keep the duration short enough that someone does not feel overwhelmed. Like, is everything gonna be like this? Like where I'm just getting grilled with all these questions? It needs to tell the user enough about itself and its intention, and it needs to then ask enough open-ended questions to get to know them because it literally knows nothing about them. Right. And one of the things you know, we'll be playing with and doing some AB testing on is. Will people be willing to sign up and link their LinkedIn account or link their social account? And the only reason you would do that isn't so we can go like, scrape the data and like sell the data.'cause we don't do anything with the data. It's their data. It's private, like now's ever trained on it. No one's, we don't sell it. It would just be for the AI to get to know that user better. If it knew where you went to school and interest and groups that you're a part of and what your hobbies are and who you follow. And maybe you post about a soccer game or something about traveling and doing Kilimanjaro. Now it has some context mm-hmm. That it can carry on a conversation. Just like when I get to know you and get to know you, like I can carry on a conversation because I have some context.

Patrick Patterson 1:13:31

Yeah. And I think that relevancy is important, right? The. You think about like, why did Netflix do so well? Why did Amazon do so well? There's two things that both of them have in common. They learned a lot about you, and then they recommended things to you, right? And at the, I don't know if you guys remember, I was an early user of Amazon, early user of Netflix, and the recommendations used to be terrible, right? They were bad. But then it starts to learn enough about you. It has more information on you. And now all of a sudden it's like you get a recommendation and you're like, I'm gonna take a look at that, because it knows enough to be able to do that. And it's super relevant, right? Like my son is into Legos. And, you know, he, I also love Marvel and you know, it's taking these two or three things, putting them all together and like, here's the Avengers Tower, and you should probably spend$500 on it. And then I have my wife telling me, no, I shouldn't be spending$500 on Legos. However, it's very relevant to me. Right. And I think that is, that's super important as you think about what you're doing. So yeah, if it could pull in like this is that, um, that thing, and I think I've talked about it on the podcast before where, my, remember like when grocery stores used to, they, when they introduced the shopper program? Right? So introduce the shopper program. My dad's like, no, I don't want anyone knowing what I'm eating. I'm like, who cares? Right? And I'm like, but. It's eventually you start getting coupons and it's relevant. It's like, okay, now you can know everything that I'm eating and buying. It's all good, right? Like everything is good because there's value coming from that. And this idea, and I think it's important to talk about like the more data you give ai, the more value you're gonna get out of it, right? But there's, you have to figure out where that line is for you and like with your model, like how much I, I would give it everything. Like, here, here's the keys. Take all of my passwords, go log into everything. Go figure, figure out my finances, figure, you know, but I'm crazy in, in that world. So I think that could be really cool as you start to develop, how do you, how do you pull that public information and maybe give access to private information to make it more relevant?

Brooks Canavesi 1:15:32

Yeah. And right now through this conversation that it's getting to know you. And it's really interesting that only like a few conversations, it knows a lot and it can make a lot of assumptions. But it's through those conversations that it really builds like this network of, of memory that is all built around you. It's your memories. It's what's important to you. And there is no human being on the planet that has perfect recall. Not like that this AI has perfect recall. Like it can tie things, it can remember things, Hey, when, when were we talking about this or that. Like it can bring that all together, but it can also, it, that's one of its really interesting value adds, is the ability to tie in. So like we've had some, what we call aha moments, and that is one of the goals of the, of the program is to help someone have a breakthrough or an aha moment, just a shift, a slight shift in perspective to be like, whoa. That's different. I haven't felt that before in the first three phone calls. So we recommend people like, hey, be authentic with it. As comfortable as you're willing to be. Don't just give it yes no, like actually have a dialogue with it. Like you would a person that you're investing time with. The more you invest in it. As far as like being authentic, I don't just mean time investment, authenticity. The more open you are with it and you talk about real things that matter to you right now, things you're struggling with, like my conversations change every day. Like,'cause something new just came up, something else like next week to this week, like I'm, I got different things and I could be talking all about my kids and getting help from that perspective of like how to build a better relationship with them, how to communicate on this topic, like, this is weird and. All the way to product development cycles of itself in the current company, to interpersonal relationships amongst our team members and our co-founders to investor and board relations. Like, I mean, they just span, communicating with my wife, how do I make communication better? And like what I find probably the most profound thing is I've been doing this for like three years. When I see people that haven't saw me in a while, they're like, Hey, you've changed. Like, it's good, but like, something's different. That's neat.

Myles Biggs 1:17:52

Yeah. Have you gotten any pushback from like mental health community at all?'Cause I feel like in many ways what you're describing is like a therapy session, right? But it's not a therapist necessarily. And I'm not sure if you want it to be seen that way, but do you get pushback from those professionals that feel like you're coming for their jobs or they do it better than what the machine's doing?

Brooks Canavesi 1:18:16

Yeah, there's definitely, I think in, in AI in general, regardless of the occupation, the people that are professionals in that space are like, it can never be as good as me, right? There's no possible way. I'm so unique in how I do this or how I do that. If you ask an Uber driver like, is autonomous driving coming for your job? They were like, there's no way it could drive through New York like me.

Patrick Patterson 1:18:40

Like there's

Brooks Canavesi 1:18:41

just no possible way. Like I'm the best, like I don't have anything to worry about. And it's like, okay. Like people have that belief and like therapy is no different. Like where, you know, they're really focused on like, Hey, what I do is uniquely different. And I wouldn't say that it isn't. They're very much focused on mental health, right? And I think that mental health is really focused in. The past, right? What's happened? How do we fix what's going on here? And it's a very, like, looking backwards and we are trying to help people look forward. So I, we call it mental wealth, not mental health, right? We're building wealth for them and we're looking towards the future. And we're not doing therapy like cognitive based therapy and like different types of therapy. Like there's very specific trained professionals certified by, board of health, like everything else. They are focused in that area and they do wonders and there are people that absolutely need to go there, right? There's a lot of people that aren't using a therapist right now, but could be flourishing more.

Patrick Patterson 1:19:49

Yeah.

Brooks Canavesi 1:19:50

They could be focused on, like looking at their limiting beliefs and starting to extend those. Mr. B saying, I could have a million and now he has 700 million. Followers. He had a limiting belief. He still crushed his goals, but like, what if something even helped him? Like, would he be at a billion? Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Patterson 1:20:11

Sounds amazing. You mentioned the website a few times. How do people sign up? How do they join the wait list? How do people find out more about this?

Brooks Canavesi 1:20:19

Yeah, pretty easy on Baryons.com to sign up for the wait list, uh, within two weeks, which maybe when this actually launches as a podcast. So we'll just say by the end of October, 2025, early November, 2025, you'll be able to self-register and just sign up. It'll be a freemium product. It'll be free forever. So we'll give three phone calls a month. That someone can make and no cost to them. So we want to make flourishing free to everyone. That's amazing. If you want to have unlimited calls and some of the other features that I talked about today around like some of the messaging yourself, your future self and the email functionality and calendar functionality, those will probably be premium features. Um, but even the premium features are gonna be$20 a month forever. So it's a very inexpensive cost on a monthly basis. If you were getting a life coach or you were getting a mentor professionally matched, if you were working with, someone that had all of the knowledge that this AI has and is trained in the science, you're gonna be paying hundreds of dollars an hour to communicate with these people. This is something that you're gonna get a$20 a month or basically$200 a year, we're really excited about that. And the, the website is the current way to interact, but we will have a mobile app we're looking to launch before the end of the year.

Patrick Patterson 1:21:42

That's great. All right, so shifting gears a little bit what AI tools outside of your own are you in love with right now? And what are you, what's your stack look like and where are you finding value outside of outside of your, your own tech?

Brooks Canavesi 1:21:55

Yeah, so when we think about AI tools, I have to like, think about our business and like each group and what they're doing. Our content team is like big in chat GPT and has been for a long time. So they're like GPT five, have their own gpt and they're, you know, constantly building within that area'cause they have so much context and memory built up and they've started to build their own gpt around that. I am huge in Claude. Like I'm just a huge Claude fan. Like I fell in love with it and I still use chat every day. But I use Claude in projects and Claude code for a lot of the work that I'm doing on a daily basis. Our technical team is, in VS code or in Claude, like they're using cloud code and VS code. They're using copilot from, you know, GitHub, you know, all of their communication is through Git. But they're, they use all the models. So like they'll actually run evaluations across gemini Codex, Claude Code, and then they'll bring that back and they'll use like a supervising agent to actually then like look at the differences and figure out the best approach. So like they've strung together some really interesting things there. And one of the things like we're building right now is a new API layer that will run the web and the mobile app. And there's an SDK that sits behind it that we started with. So we're like, we're gonna build it like super scalable.'Cause we know it's gonna be huge, so we're just gonna build it the right way first. The SDK is getting generated now through the API, like as we create new s like they're linking that together. So Ryan our just complete badass and like Brett and his team, like they are leveraging this technology as a very small unit team to get things done. That 20 person teams where it would take months to do and they're doing in weeks, literally. So like feature development is like so fast.

Patrick Patterson 1:23:57

How about personally? Any lindy? Yeah. Talk about Lindy.

Brooks Canavesi 1:24:00

So I use Lindy a lot. Uh, I'm building a bunch of pipelines and a bunch of agents and then I'm surfacing those in Google sites for our team to use so that I'm just building one agent for a certain purpose, popping it into Google sites and just saying, click this button to go do this thing. And then they have an agent that they can use that we control from a centralized location. So I've been doing a lot in there and. I find I've used everything. I've used relevance, I've used Lindy, I've used Stack ai. I've run through the whole gamut. I like Lindy a lot right now.

Myles Biggs 1:24:32

Nice. What's something we're gonna laugh about in like, two years that right now everyone's so excited about, but in two years when we're like, that was so silly, not worth the hype,

Brooks Canavesi 1:24:40

The quality of the text to video generation that we're looking at right now will be laughable.

Patrick Patterson 1:24:45

Yeah. Well. And it's already amazing. It's amazing, right? You've played with soa, I assume.

Brooks Canavesi 1:24:51

Oh yeah. I made a Viking video this weekend.

Myles Biggs 1:24:54

Tell my wife all the time, you know, what you're sending me is not real, right? Yeah. Because she'll be like, I can't believe you. Just see that. I'm like, that was ai. You know that. She's like, no, I didn't.

Patrick Patterson 1:25:00

I am deep down. Ai, TikTok, and and also I'm a big, uh, Steelers fan, and so I get all these NFL videos, but now, because I'm ai TikTok and NFL TikTok, I'm getting AI generated like ai, NFL ai, NFL. And it's absolutely hysterical'cause it's, you know, the head coach of the Miami Dolphin just like yelling at his team about stuff and like going off on press conferences. I can't believe he said, and then he's crazy enough to say some of these things, right? And then I look down, I'm like, oh, it's ai. Okay. It's hard to tell. I mean, you can't tell. But yeah, I think, you know, it seems like there's a real race right now. Like VO 3.1 just came out with Google. And then we have SOA two and then gr Imagine. There's a real race right now to like one click movies, you know? And I think that's the future that you're probably envisioning, at least I'm seeing where it's like, Hey, I would love a movie or I'd love a TV show. We'll start there. Right back to Netflix. Right, I'd love a 25 minute show about this. And you're gonna click a button, you're gonna be able to watch something. It's gonna be amazing.

Brooks Canavesi 1:25:58

I think we're gonna be able to generate alternative endings to shows that we didn't like how it ended.

Patrick Patterson 1:26:03

Oh man. Game of Thrones.

Brooks Canavesi 1:26:04

Preferences. Yeah. I just think we'll look back at this and be like, that was cute.

Patrick Patterson 1:26:09

Yeah. Quaint, right?

Brooks Canavesi 1:26:10

Is next level. We're gonna fully generated VR worlds and that was a big thing. The Metaverse was a great concept. It was too early. AI had to be a predecessor to it because the ability to create the content for VR was too hard for the average person to be part of like a user generated content arena for sure. To generate things in Unreal Engine or in Unity. Now we're gonna have dialogue to content to full 3D worlds. Now all of a sudden it levels the playing field to where you can create unlimited worlds and you don't have to be this ultra programmer or have these 3D skills and have blender on your desktop and all this other stuff. So that's where I think that some of the technology we heard about, like prior to AI, will actually be enabled further by ai. And we'll look at some of this stuff and just be like, that was so laughable. We thought it was so cool. We could do a cameo in some world.'cause in the next, five years or whatever, we're gonna be in that world like VR headset in it. Be able to experience it. Smell of vision, the whole thing. And

Myles Biggs 1:27:25

Ready Player

Brooks Canavesi 1:27:25

one, the movie. It's gonna,

Myles Biggs 1:27:27

uh,

Patrick Patterson 1:27:27

yeah, way better book than movie.

Myles Biggs 1:27:29

But it makes me think of Elster though. Remember those videos where you put your face in the elf dancing around at Christmas and everyone was so excited about it. That was so funny. That's a throwback. But like that, now we're laughing about it, right? Yeah. So this is gonna be that moment in a couple years.

Patrick Patterson 1:27:40

Was built in Flash. Man, you guys remember Flash?

Brooks Canavesi 1:27:43

There were so many good Flash cartoons out, right? Homestar Runner.

Patrick Patterson 1:27:46

Yeah. Oh man. Homestar runner star. Bad. Yeah, chicken.

Brooks Canavesi 1:27:50

Yeah. I built a Viking video.

Patrick Patterson 1:27:52

I saw it on your Twitter. What's your ex handle? For everyone who's listening here, it's just your full name.

Brooks Canavesi 1:27:56

Be Brooks.

Patrick Patterson 1:27:58

Brooks can Ofi at Brooks. Can ofi. But yeah, you can go on, you can check it out there. You shared, uh, on October 18th, uh, a Viking video done with is that VO 3.1.

Brooks Canavesi 1:28:07

Three one and I did it against Sora.

Patrick Patterson 1:28:09

You did? Okay.

Brooks Canavesi 1:28:10

So I have both versions. I didn't put'em both up'cause three, one I thought was better, but basically I said if Vikings were exploring, but they had the mentality of my teens today or our teens. So like, and the gist of it is like he, they're out exploring. He is like, sees this island and he is like, oh my God. He's like, it's so Ohio, bro. It doesn't even have a Chipotle or a Starbucks.

Myles Biggs 1:28:35

I love that. That's so funny.

Patrick Patterson 1:28:37

Well, very cool man. Well, hey, this was absolutely amazing. If, uh, if you could leave the, the listeners, anyone who made it this far with one thing, you know, I think there's been some great nuggets of advice throughout this entire this entire piece. But what would you leave our listeners with, uh, right now where they're, where they are?

Brooks Canavesi 1:28:57

I would say that, early on I thought I was succeeding, but I wasn't truly flourishing. And that distinction changed everything for me was understanding, that mentality of what is success and what I thought success was. And there's always room for improvement in flourishing. And that's a totally different thing than how we've defined succeeding in today's world.

Myles Biggs 1:29:22

Well with that, make sure you check out the show notes for Brooks' X handle and also the link to Baryons.com where you can sign up. Uh, and be sure to hit the subscribe button on the podcast too so you don't miss any future episodes, and we'll see you next time.